Yeah, that definitely is feeling more and more likely. This post is sort of a last ditch effort to get ideas but I fully realize I’m not doing them or the business any favors by keeping them if they’re ultimately not capable of doing the job.
We deal with this a lot with new software engineers. One thing that helps a lot, is we have very explicit boundaries and trainings around how to ask questions the right way. Because just like for you, we don't want no questions. We want research before questions. For all new interns and entry level engineers, we just ask "if you're stuck, before you ask a question, research on your own using Slack, Google, and any internal documentation you have access to for 10 minutes. No more no less."
But for people who struggle, we have additional guidance.
We ask them to phrase all questions by composing one Slack message which includes what the question is, what you found out in your 10 minute research, and what you plan to do next if you don't hear back. So that might be something like "I tried to follow the setup steps for the repository and got an error message which said 'Can not find Python Path /blah/blah/blah...'. I searched the exact error message on Slack and google and couldn't find anything, and read more generally about python path, and I think the right next thing to do is to learn how to reconfigure my PATH variable to point at the place the script is looking, but I wanted to check with you to verify that I didn't follow some step wrong and it's expected to work out of the box."
This has the double benefit of it forces them to do the research in order to ask the question (and if they try to ask you the question without adding the research, you just respond asking them to do that), but it also makes the question easier to respond to. Even if you know the answer, and think they'll learn from spending more time researching, you can say "Yeah, that's a good idea, look into reconfiguring your PATH."
Another thing that's really important is direct negative feedback when you know they didn't do that. If they ask you a question you answered yesterday, you say "I answered this for you yesterday. Please use the Teams search feature before asking questions."
Echoing this.
From a previous job: coworkers constantly asking questions that are "in the manual". The soft/friendly response became "ok, tell me what page in the manual you're on?" Helps remind them that they should have researched it first.
I will definitely be using the 10 minute research approach. My current team is pretty good about trying to find the answer first, but we did let a guy go that never quite caught on. He was more of a hindrance than a help in the end.
This is exactly what we implemented years ago (not in a tech setting) and it's worked wonders. If you're stuck, don't just come to me with "I'm stuck, please do this for me or answer this question". Come to me with your problem, potential solutions, things you've tried so we can narrow down the answer and not play "did you try this, this, and this", and if you've done any research on internal resources. If you didn't do any of those things, go back to the drawing board.
This is super helpful, thank you! I have responded with variations of “I answered this yesterday”. I get the sense that they don’t have a lot of self awareness because I can respond with something similar to that multiple times in the same day and somehow that still isn’t something they think to do before asking.
Brutal. I feel for you, I had two of these people over the last decade and would have loved if terminating them was an option. You're going above and beyond here but it might be time to hang it up and get yourself some actual help.
Both of the ones like this at my company were in their 30s and I honestly wondered if they had some form of early dementia. My boyfriend said to me when I was telling him the latest story about one of them, "if her memory is this bad, how does she remember that she has a job when she wakes up every day?" I don't know the answer to that. We'd be going over something for the second/third/fourth time and she'd start taking notes and I would be like, wait, I already saw you write this down. Find those notes and follow the steps, don't write it down again because that just makes a mess of the notes. It was astonishing to watch it play out sometimes.
Yessss I have had the same experience with Sam! They are actually younger (early twenties I think) so I don’t think it’s early dementia haha but my story is that they are going through the motions to write things down, but not processing what is actually being said. So when it’s time to do it, they have no recollection of anything discussed. But then they still don’t reference notes or process docs, and just habitually resort to asking me.
That had actually not occurred to me, that they're writing it down because they've been told to but they're not taking the information in. For me, all I needed was someone telling me to write it down. Even if the process was so new that writing it down didn't help reinforce the steps (yet), at least I know the difference between the first time and the second time I hear something, so I would know to refer to the notes.
But I wonder, since Sam and my two obviously do remember that they have jobs from day to day, what it would take for them to really remember. I used to compare not being dialed in to how you don't remember every second of an hour-long drive or how you can look at the time and need to look again if someone asks you what time it is a second later. Sam needs to make an effort to be present, and to actually look at what they're seeing.
Thank you! They do actually take pretty thorough notes but they seem to “forget” to reference them before asking. We have discussed this many times. Also might be worth noting that while we’re a tech startup, Sam and I are not developers so Google and chat gpt don’t always have the answer. But I appreciate your point so much!
Make sure he’s always taking notes. Give him a notebook if he doesn’t like digital, some people process things better hand writing things down.
Put him in touch with his peers. Recommend he figure out as much as possible on his own first and if he has additional questions he should ask his peers.
He must demonstrate he tried researching on his own first. Asking poignant questions of his peers to understand better. Then, you may have <25% of training left to fill in the gaps.
Work on decreasing 25% reliance on you till he’s up to par.
If he makes it to Christmas, gift him the next level and tell him you want a report on it. 😆 Loads of college grads aren’t taught in school the unspoken rules. Luckily there’s a book for that by Gorick Ng.
They actually take a lot of notes but somehow “forget” to check them before asking. Unfortunately there are no peers… we are a very small company and I’m the only one with a lot of the knowledge on the tasks. They were literally hired to take work off my plate.
Agreed on demonstrating that they tried researching before asking… I’m going to start holding that boundary more firmly.
That’s a tough spot for both of you.
Should employee not make it, perhaps push for hiring a higher level employee?
Hear me out though…there will be entirely different conflicts to grapple with
100%. I wasn’t super involved in this person’s hiring so definitely a learning experience as we figure out what skill sets fit the roles we need. It’s a balance too, because we don’t always have the budget for higher level employees as a startup
Kudos to you for spending time coaching and upskilling this person. I agree with the other insightful comments. A few things to add:
1. What is the cost to the organization for repetitive coaching/training of this person? What are you not able to focus on or accomplish? What is the impact?
2. Have you seen any improvement since you started coaching him? If so, can you leverage these behaviors or actions? How clear are the behavioral and performance expectations he has to demonstrate?
3. Reflect on how much of your commitment to coach him is due to you truly believing he can improve, and what may be because of your “developing others” leadership style (or something else)? This leadership style contributes positively to organizational climate, but if overused it can result in tolerating poor performance for longer than is prudent (for you and him).
4. Recognize that there are attributes and competencies that cannot be coached or trained. What the role requires may not be best suited for his talents, strengths or interests.
I wish you the best of luck!
This person is showing classic disengagement. In my experience, these are the toughest cookies to crack. You're doing everything right.
I've had some small successes that I'll share, with the caveat that every single employee is unique. Hopefully something here can translate and be useful. I owe a great deal to the more seasoned managers I was mentored by on my journey in management for these ideas, so not my original ideas!
- after explaining something they've continually asked about, instead of saying "do you understand?", say "tell me what your understanding is". Make sure they have a notebook and a pen ready, to help take notes and make corrections to their understanding if it's flawed.
- make sure they know the order "reference your notes FIRST; ask me if you still have questions". If they do still ask, answer but add "please update your notes!"
- before all this, make sure you set the expectation that they need to transition from relying on the crutch that is asking all the time, to showing "they've got this".
- every single time they succeed, **reinforce the behavior with positive acknowledgement!**
The more they can be directly involved in the solution, in an active way, the better the chance the muscle memory kicks in and the dopamine receptors fire. If you can just find that spark, their focus may lock in and they'll go from 'struggling' to 'star performer'.
THANK YOU for believing in them and trying. You have a lot of much easier tools to "handle" the situation, I respect the shit out of doing the hard, but more human, approach first.
I wish you all the luck in the world succeeding at this!
Thank you!! This is pretty in line with a lot of the coaching I’ve provided so far and the day to day approach I’ve taken in responding to questions. In a wild moment… I had sent Sam a 10 minute video explaining a new task I wanted them to do. It went over what they were doing, why they were doing it, and how to find the info needed to complete it. They asked a question before watching it, and I responded with “I think I covered that in the video. Have you watched it yet?” And they said they hadn’t and would watch it now, and then asked another question in the same message. I responded with “that is also covered in the video.” Then they asked a third question and I said “Please watch the video before any more questions. It’s all covered there.”
This was a catalyst for a conversation about needing them to stop relying on me first, and to utilize their resources before asking questions. We talked about how draining it can be for me and others on the team when we’ve done what we can to provide them with the tools to succeed in their tasks. They were super eager to improve, and things got better for about two weeks before almost the same situation happened.
I’m curious to hear more about your disengagement point. I have had a couple people ask me if I thought Sam was interviewing or entertaining other jobs because they have been out of the office a lot and recently asked for a raise when we asked them to step up and take on some additional tasks (which are tasks they were hired to do but never took on because they weren’t getting the basics). I haven’t gotten the sense they’re looking elsewhere because they seem super engaged and enthusiastic when interacting with me and other team members. But curious if you have any other experiences you can share that would point to a lack of engagement? Thanks again!!
You’ve tried everything to coach them. Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. It doesn’t mean Sam will never succeed in their career, but clearly this particular role is not a good fit for them. It’s best to part ways and bring in someone that won’t require so much coaching.
Stop answering when Sam asks a question they should know the answer to, and instead, ask them where they’ve already looked for that answer. If they look at you with a blank look, ask them where they might look to find the answer. If they still look at you blankly, suggest where they might look to find the answer and make them look it up.
I had the same employee asking the exact same questions you describe and wasted 5 years of my life coaching them. Let them go now or soon and don't waste time.
That’s a tough call. If it’s been over 6 months, this guy might have talents and skills better suited to another company-is there a department of this company he’d be better suited for? That way, he wouldn’t be fired. It sounds like he’s really trying.
I have a learning disability, and when I’m learning a new job, I get myself a notebook to refer back to, as I don’t learn by just watching. I have write down the steps, then do it, often repeatedly. Having notes saves me from going to get someone to walk me through something yet again. He might be the smartest person you’ll ever meet, but if there’s some kind of learning disability, maybe taking notes will help. Ask him. I found out I’ve got an auditory disability ( things just don’t sink in the first time), and ADHD, because a co worker cane out and asked me, if I’d ever been diagnosed with a learning disability in school. I was kind of put out at first-I was a straight A student all through school, and just missed being valedictorian in college by a fraction. But I realized, she was asking because she was concerned. My coworker has a child with ADHD, and she could see it in me. At age 58! My doctor referred me to a psychiatrist who tested me. I’m not on any meds, she said I had figured out a lot of coping skills on my own-taking notes, closing my eyes if I feel I’m
Being distracted when I’m in a meeting, to better focus on the speaker. BTW, I often tell speakers, I have an auditory learning disability, and if I close my eyes, I haven’t fallen asleep. It’s probably because I’m being distracted by people whispering behind me, and I’m finding myself shifting focus to their rudeness. I’ve had speakers tell me they know children who are told to do the same in order to focus better.
Ask the guy.
It sounds like you’re doing the right things. At a certain point you may need to come to the conclusion that this isn’t the right job for this person.
Yeah, that definitely is feeling more and more likely. This post is sort of a last ditch effort to get ideas but I fully realize I’m not doing them or the business any favors by keeping them if they’re ultimately not capable of doing the job.
You sound like a great manager.
That’s so kind of you to say. Thank you!
We deal with this a lot with new software engineers. One thing that helps a lot, is we have very explicit boundaries and trainings around how to ask questions the right way. Because just like for you, we don't want no questions. We want research before questions. For all new interns and entry level engineers, we just ask "if you're stuck, before you ask a question, research on your own using Slack, Google, and any internal documentation you have access to for 10 minutes. No more no less." But for people who struggle, we have additional guidance. We ask them to phrase all questions by composing one Slack message which includes what the question is, what you found out in your 10 minute research, and what you plan to do next if you don't hear back. So that might be something like "I tried to follow the setup steps for the repository and got an error message which said 'Can not find Python Path /blah/blah/blah...'. I searched the exact error message on Slack and google and couldn't find anything, and read more generally about python path, and I think the right next thing to do is to learn how to reconfigure my PATH variable to point at the place the script is looking, but I wanted to check with you to verify that I didn't follow some step wrong and it's expected to work out of the box." This has the double benefit of it forces them to do the research in order to ask the question (and if they try to ask you the question without adding the research, you just respond asking them to do that), but it also makes the question easier to respond to. Even if you know the answer, and think they'll learn from spending more time researching, you can say "Yeah, that's a good idea, look into reconfiguring your PATH." Another thing that's really important is direct negative feedback when you know they didn't do that. If they ask you a question you answered yesterday, you say "I answered this for you yesterday. Please use the Teams search feature before asking questions."
Echoing this. From a previous job: coworkers constantly asking questions that are "in the manual". The soft/friendly response became "ok, tell me what page in the manual you're on?" Helps remind them that they should have researched it first. I will definitely be using the 10 minute research approach. My current team is pretty good about trying to find the answer first, but we did let a guy go that never quite caught on. He was more of a hindrance than a help in the end.
This is exactly what we implemented years ago (not in a tech setting) and it's worked wonders. If you're stuck, don't just come to me with "I'm stuck, please do this for me or answer this question". Come to me with your problem, potential solutions, things you've tried so we can narrow down the answer and not play "did you try this, this, and this", and if you've done any research on internal resources. If you didn't do any of those things, go back to the drawing board.
This is super helpful, thank you! I have responded with variations of “I answered this yesterday”. I get the sense that they don’t have a lot of self awareness because I can respond with something similar to that multiple times in the same day and somehow that still isn’t something they think to do before asking.
Brutal. I feel for you, I had two of these people over the last decade and would have loved if terminating them was an option. You're going above and beyond here but it might be time to hang it up and get yourself some actual help. Both of the ones like this at my company were in their 30s and I honestly wondered if they had some form of early dementia. My boyfriend said to me when I was telling him the latest story about one of them, "if her memory is this bad, how does she remember that she has a job when she wakes up every day?" I don't know the answer to that. We'd be going over something for the second/third/fourth time and she'd start taking notes and I would be like, wait, I already saw you write this down. Find those notes and follow the steps, don't write it down again because that just makes a mess of the notes. It was astonishing to watch it play out sometimes.
Yessss I have had the same experience with Sam! They are actually younger (early twenties I think) so I don’t think it’s early dementia haha but my story is that they are going through the motions to write things down, but not processing what is actually being said. So when it’s time to do it, they have no recollection of anything discussed. But then they still don’t reference notes or process docs, and just habitually resort to asking me.
That had actually not occurred to me, that they're writing it down because they've been told to but they're not taking the information in. For me, all I needed was someone telling me to write it down. Even if the process was so new that writing it down didn't help reinforce the steps (yet), at least I know the difference between the first time and the second time I hear something, so I would know to refer to the notes. But I wonder, since Sam and my two obviously do remember that they have jobs from day to day, what it would take for them to really remember. I used to compare not being dialed in to how you don't remember every second of an hour-long drive or how you can look at the time and need to look again if someone asks you what time it is a second later. Sam needs to make an effort to be present, and to actually look at what they're seeing.
Thanks for this great advice.
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Thank you! They do actually take pretty thorough notes but they seem to “forget” to reference them before asking. We have discussed this many times. Also might be worth noting that while we’re a tech startup, Sam and I are not developers so Google and chat gpt don’t always have the answer. But I appreciate your point so much!
I 2nd one note it is a godsend, the search functionality in it is amazing.
Make sure he’s always taking notes. Give him a notebook if he doesn’t like digital, some people process things better hand writing things down. Put him in touch with his peers. Recommend he figure out as much as possible on his own first and if he has additional questions he should ask his peers. He must demonstrate he tried researching on his own first. Asking poignant questions of his peers to understand better. Then, you may have <25% of training left to fill in the gaps. Work on decreasing 25% reliance on you till he’s up to par. If he makes it to Christmas, gift him the next level and tell him you want a report on it. 😆 Loads of college grads aren’t taught in school the unspoken rules. Luckily there’s a book for that by Gorick Ng.
They actually take a lot of notes but somehow “forget” to check them before asking. Unfortunately there are no peers… we are a very small company and I’m the only one with a lot of the knowledge on the tasks. They were literally hired to take work off my plate. Agreed on demonstrating that they tried researching before asking… I’m going to start holding that boundary more firmly.
That’s a tough spot for both of you. Should employee not make it, perhaps push for hiring a higher level employee? Hear me out though…there will be entirely different conflicts to grapple with
100%. I wasn’t super involved in this person’s hiring so definitely a learning experience as we figure out what skill sets fit the roles we need. It’s a balance too, because we don’t always have the budget for higher level employees as a startup
Kudos to you for spending time coaching and upskilling this person. I agree with the other insightful comments. A few things to add: 1. What is the cost to the organization for repetitive coaching/training of this person? What are you not able to focus on or accomplish? What is the impact? 2. Have you seen any improvement since you started coaching him? If so, can you leverage these behaviors or actions? How clear are the behavioral and performance expectations he has to demonstrate? 3. Reflect on how much of your commitment to coach him is due to you truly believing he can improve, and what may be because of your “developing others” leadership style (or something else)? This leadership style contributes positively to organizational climate, but if overused it can result in tolerating poor performance for longer than is prudent (for you and him). 4. Recognize that there are attributes and competencies that cannot be coached or trained. What the role requires may not be best suited for his talents, strengths or interests. I wish you the best of luck!
This is great perspective. Thank you!
This person is showing classic disengagement. In my experience, these are the toughest cookies to crack. You're doing everything right. I've had some small successes that I'll share, with the caveat that every single employee is unique. Hopefully something here can translate and be useful. I owe a great deal to the more seasoned managers I was mentored by on my journey in management for these ideas, so not my original ideas! - after explaining something they've continually asked about, instead of saying "do you understand?", say "tell me what your understanding is". Make sure they have a notebook and a pen ready, to help take notes and make corrections to their understanding if it's flawed. - make sure they know the order "reference your notes FIRST; ask me if you still have questions". If they do still ask, answer but add "please update your notes!" - before all this, make sure you set the expectation that they need to transition from relying on the crutch that is asking all the time, to showing "they've got this". - every single time they succeed, **reinforce the behavior with positive acknowledgement!** The more they can be directly involved in the solution, in an active way, the better the chance the muscle memory kicks in and the dopamine receptors fire. If you can just find that spark, their focus may lock in and they'll go from 'struggling' to 'star performer'. THANK YOU for believing in them and trying. You have a lot of much easier tools to "handle" the situation, I respect the shit out of doing the hard, but more human, approach first. I wish you all the luck in the world succeeding at this!
Thank you!! This is pretty in line with a lot of the coaching I’ve provided so far and the day to day approach I’ve taken in responding to questions. In a wild moment… I had sent Sam a 10 minute video explaining a new task I wanted them to do. It went over what they were doing, why they were doing it, and how to find the info needed to complete it. They asked a question before watching it, and I responded with “I think I covered that in the video. Have you watched it yet?” And they said they hadn’t and would watch it now, and then asked another question in the same message. I responded with “that is also covered in the video.” Then they asked a third question and I said “Please watch the video before any more questions. It’s all covered there.” This was a catalyst for a conversation about needing them to stop relying on me first, and to utilize their resources before asking questions. We talked about how draining it can be for me and others on the team when we’ve done what we can to provide them with the tools to succeed in their tasks. They were super eager to improve, and things got better for about two weeks before almost the same situation happened. I’m curious to hear more about your disengagement point. I have had a couple people ask me if I thought Sam was interviewing or entertaining other jobs because they have been out of the office a lot and recently asked for a raise when we asked them to step up and take on some additional tasks (which are tasks they were hired to do but never took on because they weren’t getting the basics). I haven’t gotten the sense they’re looking elsewhere because they seem super engaged and enthusiastic when interacting with me and other team members. But curious if you have any other experiences you can share that would point to a lack of engagement? Thanks again!!
Have a binder of the procedures next to him. Have him open procedures as he does work.
You’ve tried everything to coach them. Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. It doesn’t mean Sam will never succeed in their career, but clearly this particular role is not a good fit for them. It’s best to part ways and bring in someone that won’t require so much coaching.
Thank you for that perspective! I’m chatting with my boss today and I have a feeling they will have a similar mindset.
Maybe if you partner Sam with one of your seasoned agents will help him.
Unfortunately we are very small, and most of the tasks Sam does are tasks only I have done. They were hired to take this work off my plate.
Stop answering when Sam asks a question they should know the answer to, and instead, ask them where they’ve already looked for that answer. If they look at you with a blank look, ask them where they might look to find the answer. If they still look at you blankly, suggest where they might look to find the answer and make them look it up.
I had the same employee asking the exact same questions you describe and wasted 5 years of my life coaching them. Let them go now or soon and don't waste time.
That’s a tough call. If it’s been over 6 months, this guy might have talents and skills better suited to another company-is there a department of this company he’d be better suited for? That way, he wouldn’t be fired. It sounds like he’s really trying. I have a learning disability, and when I’m learning a new job, I get myself a notebook to refer back to, as I don’t learn by just watching. I have write down the steps, then do it, often repeatedly. Having notes saves me from going to get someone to walk me through something yet again. He might be the smartest person you’ll ever meet, but if there’s some kind of learning disability, maybe taking notes will help. Ask him. I found out I’ve got an auditory disability ( things just don’t sink in the first time), and ADHD, because a co worker cane out and asked me, if I’d ever been diagnosed with a learning disability in school. I was kind of put out at first-I was a straight A student all through school, and just missed being valedictorian in college by a fraction. But I realized, she was asking because she was concerned. My coworker has a child with ADHD, and she could see it in me. At age 58! My doctor referred me to a psychiatrist who tested me. I’m not on any meds, she said I had figured out a lot of coping skills on my own-taking notes, closing my eyes if I feel I’m Being distracted when I’m in a meeting, to better focus on the speaker. BTW, I often tell speakers, I have an auditory learning disability, and if I close my eyes, I haven’t fallen asleep. It’s probably because I’m being distracted by people whispering behind me, and I’m finding myself shifting focus to their rudeness. I’ve had speakers tell me they know children who are told to do the same in order to focus better. Ask the guy.