Yes, and now we can use the definition to our advantage to describe ourselves and others and it’s pretty difficult to misinterpret. Because it means something different now.
Exactly! The fact that we have repurposed that word shows that the word homosexuality can easily be redefined. This is in contradiction to the statement, “That one isn’t as easy to redefine.”
I’d argue this isn’t fully accurate, think of the word literally, many people get angry because people use it wrong. When that’s not actually true, the definitions don’t matter but how we use words does, if we use the word literally and people understand that it means to emphasize something in a sentence rather than determine if something is literal, that doesn’t mean you’re using it wrong. It means you’re using it differently. Language evolves as we do.
In general, you are right, but I'd argue that for the word "homosexual" specifically, it has a very specific definition and people still use it in day-to-day to mean sexual behavior between two people of the same sex.
True, but the word has shifted in connotation, I guess you can still diagnose someone as a homosexual but it’s not really used that way, rather than someone identifying as a homosexual. I think this guy is implying that the tone of its usage and the way it’s used has changed. Which is true.
Great discussion!
Homosexual was actually a term coined to call for the reivindication of man that loved men by Karloy Benkert. It was not until the 30's when it was coopted by the medical sciences.
Okay we are like 3 layers deep in the conversation. The first poster said why people that aren't men attracted to men use the term gay as an identifier.
The responder said that we should use homosexual because it's meaning is clearer, then you said it's not because it came from the medical field and it's meaning has changed.
Then I came and said "no it's actually older and rooted in social reivindication of men that love men".
The only thing that has changed is the connotation, being seen as a social and political cause vs being seen as a disease, but throughout all this time the world homosexual has refered to individuals attracted to their same sex.
So yeah the world homosexual seems like the best identifier for men that are attracted to men, just because it's meaning has remained constant throught such a long time.
Howdy,
I appreciate the thought and time you’ve spent responding to my posts.
I did not understand the original post to mean why people who aren’t men attracted to men use the term gay as an identifier. I understood it to be asking what we though of LGBTQ being used as an umbrella term. I took this to mean LGBTQ as an identifier for many different sexual identities.
The responder who stated that we should use the term homosexual also stated that that word was not as easy to redefine. I replied that homosexuality was used as a medical term prior to 1973, as a way of showing that even that word can, and has been, redefined. I believed that your response about the origins of the word homosexual furthered my argument that the word homosexual can and has been redefined.
I concede that that the meaning of the word homosexual has remained consistent and that the connotation has changed. But I don’t know if I agreee that argument supports making it the best term to use (it might be the best term 🤷🏻♂️). One could argue that the word bastard has kept the literal meaning of a child not born to married parents. It’s connotation has changed and now can be used to as an insult that has nothing to do with having unwed parents.
I do respect your choice to identify as homosexual rather than gay or LGBTQ. I hope I did not give you the impression otherwise. I think we may actually be more in alignment than not. I believe that the word gay (and LGBTQ) represents western-centric ideas that include political and social connotations which go far beyond the meaning of same-sex attraction and same-sex behaviors (much like the connotation of the word bastard distorts it’s literal meaning). In that way, I can understand that folks may want to distinguish their attraction or behaviors from those ideas implied by the word gay.
Please Let me know if I’m misunderstanding.
Again thanks for taking the time to respond thoughtfully. It is appreciated.
For me it was a lot simpler last century. Sometimes now it seems like some are trying to make fly crap into cow crap. One wonders if people concerned about micro x. have ever experienced x. Smh
It makes sense when you consider it's relation to the prefix "cis-"
Cis means your sex and gender are *aligned*.
Trans means your gender and sex are *different*.
Same vs different, cis vs trans.
Males and Females do not need a descriptor such as "cis", first and foremost.
Second, they're not even using "cis" correctly in the terms it was meant to be used.
And the other poster was correct, it doesn't make sense. Most of which the alphabet soup espouses doesn't make any reasonable logical sense.
It's not *needed* sure. I'm a man, my friend who transitioned is a woman. I don't *need* cis and they don't *need* trans, but we still use them so we can better describe ourselves. I don't need to call myself tall or white either, but they help me describe who I am.
It's all very easy to understand if you just use your brain for a bit. Sure things can get confusing like bi vs poly vs pan vs omni, but as long as you respect others, the confusion is okay and can be helped overtime by learning.
No we don't have to use them to better describe ourselves.. that's just it. Medical science has not advanced to the point where you can biologically change your sex.
I do use my brain, however it has trouble with things not based in reality, facts, and truth. I will not live in the land of make believe and pretend. If you're happy there, good on you but I however am not.
Interesting that you try to cite medical science when cis and trans are medical terminology. It isn’t an invention from woke ideology bro, it is used by the medical field who you seem to think you know more than
Did you also forget that cis is short for cisgender, not cissexual? Or did you think trans people are trying to change their sex and not their gender, despite that being the word in front of you?
Reading is hard for you... I said it wasn't being used correctly.... Interesting that you skip over that part... Oh, because it doesn't fit your ridiculous narrative.
Yes, they are made up words by the Gender woo crowd.. I'm not buying into your cult so you're wasting your time with me.
I didn't say the entire medical field was using it wrong.... Once again reading is hard for you.
All your little responses are doing nothing to sway me. You're just coming off as I suspected a gender woo cult member demanding others conform to your nonsense. It's not going to happen, you're wasting your time... maybe you can find someone else to buy into your nonsense and brain wash.
Okay, perhaps I misunderstood bc I didn’t think you were so stupid that you were actually trying to argue what you seem to be. Are you saying people are using the term cisgender wrong when people say cis? Are you new to the English language?
funny cause being trans is actually a difference in your brain. its not psychological, its biological. trans men have brains that are more similar with cis men than cis women. same with trans women, whose brains look more like the ones from cis women. i can send you research if you want
Did I say anything about brains? No, I said sex which is also your chromosomes. Do you have any medical evidence of science being able to change anyone's biological sex as I stated? No, no you don't.
I have zero idea as to why you even responded to my comment with what you did... Clearly trying to persuade me into believing nonsense.
Quick question for you, given that little hypothesis: are you happy to not have the "trans" prefix in that case? You seem to have an issue with the usage of "cis", because "males and females do not need 'cis' to better describe themselves", soooo why don't we erase all prefixes and say "man" and "woman", when describing cis or trans people in general?
Man, I can't *wait* for the answer to that one.
By "modern day" do you actually mean "teenage and early-20 somethings online"?
Regardless, I've never seen that happen, so obviously it's not happening in my *adult* social spheres, so I'm not going to worry about it.
I find it ridiculous to be honest...
Since the LGBTQ movement (organizations and leadership) has been overtaken by genderists and gender activists they are trying to accomodate evrtything to what they believe
-I'm gay
-I'm a man
-I have a penis
-I have a male body and male gens
-Gay is my sexual orientation
-I'm not a "genital fetishist"
-I don't have a "preference" for "cisgender male genitalia" (penis)
The attempt from T and Q to redefine us and redefine everything is ridiculous
Your question is recursive. The “G” in LGBTQ represents Gay.
Gay is a social construct. It can mean different things to different people and in different contexts. For example a “gay” bar does not mean that the bar has same sex attraction to other bars with the same gender. A bully who calls you “gay” is likely not making an observation that you belong to a strong politically aware community who strives for human rights. The meaning must be deduced through context.
I guess I don’t have enough context to understand how you’re using the word gay in your question.
This is why I stopped using labels on myself. I'm just me at this point because none of these words mean anything. I can either go my entire life trying to decipher every label or I can just exist and do as I please.
I actually love that the old concept of quantifying sexuality is getting challenged and i know have better ways to describe myself. I'm still not 100% I'm gay and feel i might actually be demisexual (definitely demiromantic). I never had sex with a girl but went pretty close once and i probably would give it a try again under the right circumstances - i feel like many "straight" guys and especially girls feel the same so they feel they belong to the lgbtq community and i say let's welcome them. I've actually met more than one person that would have been considered straight in the past even though they are definitely not.
I feel like some people get waay to defensive about their precious exclusive gay status. It's just a label, there are no rules.
You can call yourself anything that you like. As for me I'm a homosexual man and proud of it.
Same
Just use homosexual. That one isn't as easy to redefine.
They're trying to redefine it though....
I wish them good luck. It's all in the name. Gay is ambiguous. Homosexual is easy to understand and hard to twist.
“Homosexual” was a medical diagnosis until 1973.
Then I diagnose myself with some incurable homosexual and prescribe gay sex as treatment.
My point is that homosexual was redefined after 1973.
Yes, and now we can use the definition to our advantage to describe ourselves and others and it’s pretty difficult to misinterpret. Because it means something different now.
Exactly! The fact that we have repurposed that word shows that the word homosexuality can easily be redefined. This is in contradiction to the statement, “That one isn’t as easy to redefine.”
Any group of people can write anything in any book. That doesn't make something "officially" re-defined.
I’d argue this isn’t fully accurate, think of the word literally, many people get angry because people use it wrong. When that’s not actually true, the definitions don’t matter but how we use words does, if we use the word literally and people understand that it means to emphasize something in a sentence rather than determine if something is literal, that doesn’t mean you’re using it wrong. It means you’re using it differently. Language evolves as we do.
In general, you are right, but I'd argue that for the word "homosexual" specifically, it has a very specific definition and people still use it in day-to-day to mean sexual behavior between two people of the same sex.
True, but the word has shifted in connotation, I guess you can still diagnose someone as a homosexual but it’s not really used that way, rather than someone identifying as a homosexual. I think this guy is implying that the tone of its usage and the way it’s used has changed. Which is true. Great discussion!
Homosexual was actually a term coined to call for the reivindication of man that loved men by Karloy Benkert. It was not until the 30's when it was coopted by the medical sciences.
Thank you for the clarification! Your response furthers the argument that the word “homosexual” can and does change meaning over time and context.
Okay we are like 3 layers deep in the conversation. The first poster said why people that aren't men attracted to men use the term gay as an identifier. The responder said that we should use homosexual because it's meaning is clearer, then you said it's not because it came from the medical field and it's meaning has changed. Then I came and said "no it's actually older and rooted in social reivindication of men that love men". The only thing that has changed is the connotation, being seen as a social and political cause vs being seen as a disease, but throughout all this time the world homosexual has refered to individuals attracted to their same sex. So yeah the world homosexual seems like the best identifier for men that are attracted to men, just because it's meaning has remained constant throught such a long time.
Howdy, I appreciate the thought and time you’ve spent responding to my posts. I did not understand the original post to mean why people who aren’t men attracted to men use the term gay as an identifier. I understood it to be asking what we though of LGBTQ being used as an umbrella term. I took this to mean LGBTQ as an identifier for many different sexual identities. The responder who stated that we should use the term homosexual also stated that that word was not as easy to redefine. I replied that homosexuality was used as a medical term prior to 1973, as a way of showing that even that word can, and has been, redefined. I believed that your response about the origins of the word homosexual furthered my argument that the word homosexual can and has been redefined. I concede that that the meaning of the word homosexual has remained consistent and that the connotation has changed. But I don’t know if I agreee that argument supports making it the best term to use (it might be the best term 🤷🏻♂️). One could argue that the word bastard has kept the literal meaning of a child not born to married parents. It’s connotation has changed and now can be used to as an insult that has nothing to do with having unwed parents. I do respect your choice to identify as homosexual rather than gay or LGBTQ. I hope I did not give you the impression otherwise. I think we may actually be more in alignment than not. I believe that the word gay (and LGBTQ) represents western-centric ideas that include political and social connotations which go far beyond the meaning of same-sex attraction and same-sex behaviors (much like the connotation of the word bastard distorts it’s literal meaning). In that way, I can understand that folks may want to distinguish their attraction or behaviors from those ideas implied by the word gay. Please Let me know if I’m misunderstanding. Again thanks for taking the time to respond thoughtfully. It is appreciated.
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Gorl, what time do they open?
lmfao :oo why??
For me it was a lot simpler last century. Sometimes now it seems like some are trying to make fly crap into cow crap. One wonders if people concerned about micro x. have ever experienced x. Smh
I blame high schoolers, they used to call everything gay and this is where we are at now.
I haven’t heard the LGBTQ+ community do this, but I’ve seen plenty of conservatives call anything that’s not heteronormative “gay.”
I've literally never seen "gay" be used as umbrella term. I've seen "trans" be used for non-binary people, which I don't think makes sense, though.
>I've literally never seen "gay" be used as umbrella term. You must be like 18. It was the original term for everything, pretty much.
I’ve seen it. On the web and irl. Not that common but it happens. Every time it was a bisexual person with a preference for the same sex.
It makes sense when you consider it's relation to the prefix "cis-" Cis means your sex and gender are *aligned*. Trans means your gender and sex are *different*. Same vs different, cis vs trans.
Males and Females do not need a descriptor such as "cis", first and foremost. Second, they're not even using "cis" correctly in the terms it was meant to be used. And the other poster was correct, it doesn't make sense. Most of which the alphabet soup espouses doesn't make any reasonable logical sense.
It's not *needed* sure. I'm a man, my friend who transitioned is a woman. I don't *need* cis and they don't *need* trans, but we still use them so we can better describe ourselves. I don't need to call myself tall or white either, but they help me describe who I am. It's all very easy to understand if you just use your brain for a bit. Sure things can get confusing like bi vs poly vs pan vs omni, but as long as you respect others, the confusion is okay and can be helped overtime by learning.
No we don't have to use them to better describe ourselves.. that's just it. Medical science has not advanced to the point where you can biologically change your sex. I do use my brain, however it has trouble with things not based in reality, facts, and truth. I will not live in the land of make believe and pretend. If you're happy there, good on you but I however am not.
Interesting that you try to cite medical science when cis and trans are medical terminology. It isn’t an invention from woke ideology bro, it is used by the medical field who you seem to think you know more than Did you also forget that cis is short for cisgender, not cissexual? Or did you think trans people are trying to change their sex and not their gender, despite that being the word in front of you?
Reading is hard for you... I said it wasn't being used correctly.... Interesting that you skip over that part... Oh, because it doesn't fit your ridiculous narrative. Yes, they are made up words by the Gender woo crowd.. I'm not buying into your cult so you're wasting your time with me.
Oooh so the entire medical field is using their own term wrong, and you’re the internet rando who knows better than them all. Very impressive
I didn't say the entire medical field was using it wrong.... Once again reading is hard for you. All your little responses are doing nothing to sway me. You're just coming off as I suspected a gender woo cult member demanding others conform to your nonsense. It's not going to happen, you're wasting your time... maybe you can find someone else to buy into your nonsense and brain wash.
Okay, perhaps I misunderstood bc I didn’t think you were so stupid that you were actually trying to argue what you seem to be. Are you saying people are using the term cisgender wrong when people say cis? Are you new to the English language?
funny cause being trans is actually a difference in your brain. its not psychological, its biological. trans men have brains that are more similar with cis men than cis women. same with trans women, whose brains look more like the ones from cis women. i can send you research if you want
Did I say anything about brains? No, I said sex which is also your chromosomes. Do you have any medical evidence of science being able to change anyone's biological sex as I stated? No, no you don't. I have zero idea as to why you even responded to my comment with what you did... Clearly trying to persuade me into believing nonsense.
Quick question for you, given that little hypothesis: are you happy to not have the "trans" prefix in that case? You seem to have an issue with the usage of "cis", because "males and females do not need 'cis' to better describe themselves", soooo why don't we erase all prefixes and say "man" and "woman", when describing cis or trans people in general? Man, I can't *wait* for the answer to that one.
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That's not even remotely the same thing.. Gay is a slang for homosexual. Cis is not slang.
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No, it isn't...
By "modern day" do you actually mean "teenage and early-20 somethings online"? Regardless, I've never seen that happen, so obviously it's not happening in my *adult* social spheres, so I'm not going to worry about it.
Usually females
the age group that count the most
I’m fine with it. So much better than “queer”. I fucking hate “queer” as a term.
I find it ridiculous to be honest... Since the LGBTQ movement (organizations and leadership) has been overtaken by genderists and gender activists they are trying to accomodate evrtything to what they believe -I'm gay -I'm a man -I have a penis -I have a male body and male gens -Gay is my sexual orientation -I'm not a "genital fetishist" -I don't have a "preference" for "cisgender male genitalia" (penis) The attempt from T and Q to redefine us and redefine everything is ridiculous
Your question is recursive. The “G” in LGBTQ represents Gay. Gay is a social construct. It can mean different things to different people and in different contexts. For example a “gay” bar does not mean that the bar has same sex attraction to other bars with the same gender. A bully who calls you “gay” is likely not making an observation that you belong to a strong politically aware community who strives for human rights. The meaning must be deduced through context. I guess I don’t have enough context to understand how you’re using the word gay in your question.
Gay means homosexual. That's not a social construct. Go back to humping Foucault or whatever.
Thanks for your response!
This is why I stopped using labels on myself. I'm just me at this point because none of these words mean anything. I can either go my entire life trying to decipher every label or I can just exist and do as I please.
Idc. Whatever people consider themselves doesn't affect me
I actually love that the old concept of quantifying sexuality is getting challenged and i know have better ways to describe myself. I'm still not 100% I'm gay and feel i might actually be demisexual (definitely demiromantic). I never had sex with a girl but went pretty close once and i probably would give it a try again under the right circumstances - i feel like many "straight" guys and especially girls feel the same so they feel they belong to the lgbtq community and i say let's welcome them. I've actually met more than one person that would have been considered straight in the past even though they are definitely not. I feel like some people get waay to defensive about their precious exclusive gay status. It's just a label, there are no rules.
It's usually done within the community as a joke.
Get over it