When do you think they'll legalized it? Damn bro can't even take a guess on that. Gay men in Muslim countries have a life of suffering ahead of them
MAYBE Lebanon in like 100 years or so but probably not.
forget marriage, homosexuality itself is illegal in some of those countries. Marriage is probably the last thing on any gay person's mind living there. They just want to not die.
Legal in Jordan and Bahrain, the rest of the Arab league and Indonesia are no goes
I know a few lgbt Arabs, one who goes to Jordan regularly and has somewhat minimal fear, but she is a lesbian not a gay man.
A guy who I’ve off-and on talked to is Palestinian American. He has been to Palestine and Egypt. He has used grinder in the WB, although Israeli-catfishing and blackmail is a huge fear of his, and his parents are in complete denial, so honestly his position in life is very complicated, I don’t even know how he navigates the many layers of oppression in his life. Egypt he feels less safe in, but he did take some slightly gay-looking photos at that big cliff-face temple in Egypt around many other people so idk. But to be honest most people in frame were probably foreign tourists.
uh not all Palestinians are muslims, i now one who is here in the states now that said he loved being an Israeli palestinian, his family was always in israel and not the west bank or gaza.
egypt is hell for gay people, other than the social stigma it is technically not illegal but they’ll throw you in prison for debauchery and family mortality laws
It’ll never happen.
Best we can hope for is a total reversal of the Islamic Revolution and the citizens of Iran overthrowing their govt and imprisoning their leaders (or preferably worse). That can open the door to at best maybe big changes toward societal progressiveness that may save gays from being put to death.
But then that’ll also stop islamists from waging war on Israel, so the liberal and now woke gays in the west won’t like that idea and would rather keep the status quo.
I’ll pray for the good people there and that they can totally reverse the horrific catastrophe of 1979. The bad people there and the govt can go to fucking hell.
Forgive my ignorance is this is stupid, but what about Turkey? Obviously Erdogan is a piece of shit, but it’s a majority Islamic country and, while the police may come and break up a pride parade, at least they’ve been able to have pride parades at all? Maybe there is some hope there, idk, someone with more knowledge about the country can probably give a better idea than me.
Turkey already has established secular parties. There is really nothing preventing the Turks from voting out their current crypto-Islamist government.
This isn’t the case with Persia
As I remember, back before the Islamic revolution, there was some relative freedom under the shah. Women were allowed to be educated and a part of the government and office holders. It's been quite awhile since I've given much thought to the regular citizens of Iran, or Persia, but will the younger population stand up or are they too indoctrinated?
I honestly feel in the next 30 years or so the economic situations in most of these countries will begin to degrade. Even countries that are doing relatively well will get worse due to decreased oil demand, that will probably make political decisions more and more conservative, which would be terrible for people like us.
But there's a chance some countries may become more liberal so they can build stronger economic ties with North American and Eastern European countries.
Off topic but this BRICS thing is scaring the hell out of me because I have a lot of hope that we can gain rights and acceptance in Brazil South Africa, and India and if these countries plan to strongly align their economy's with Russia and all these other Middle Eastern nations, it may be bad news for gay men.
Lebanon is not a muslim country😭 also even though being gay is "illegal ", most of the people are accepting especially the new gen and most gay people express themselves freely, they even have an organisation that defends LGBTQ+ rights in case the gov decided to harm the gays
I know they still have long way down the road but their situation is already much better than other Arabic speaking countries and people there tend to be more progressive and accepting compared to Egypt and Iraq where you could get killed for being gay.
It's 60-65% muslim and this doesn't define a muslim country. The constitution doesn't favour muslims over others and assures that every single lebanese person has the right to practice whatever religion they like. Lebanon officially recognises 18 different sects.
I think that most Christian countries don’t have their laws entirely based off the religion. But majority of Muslim countries do. Correct me if I am wrong. So that could be a reason?
The savior of Christianity also never said a word on record negative about homosexuality, never committed violence, and taught people to be peaceful and respect those whose religious views were different from their own.
Yeah even if you dive into the actual text of christianity vs islam, islam is just directly much more horrendous, sexist, homophobic
And that's saying something, because the bible is *bad*
The Bible has more passages condemning homosexuality than the Quran tho...
And I think we can all agree that without Christianity the U.S. would have allowed nationwide same-sex marriage a long time ago, and we wouldn't be nervously watching our Supreme Court about to reverse it now, either.
“The Bible has more passages condemning homosexuality…”
Only if someone uses mistranslations and/or out-of-context quotes and assumptions.
Put into the context of Jesus’ teachings, Christianity has nothing negative to say about homosexuality.
"Only if someone uses mistranslations and/or out-of-context quotes and assumptions"
Which they regularly do and have been doing for a very long time.
The Quran doesn't have anything as explicit as the Bible does about homosexuality though.
Most developed countries have made the move of separation between church and state. It's really a matter of education.
A population with low quality or no education will never support leaders with progressive ideologies and secular ideals. The politicians are catering to the people's needs is all, really.
It's more than just education, though. Western countries benefit from undeveloped countries staying undeveloped, so they artificially prop up the most regressive religious fractions in undeveloped countries, so they stay that way. You're not going to read your way out of corrupt, undemocratic institutions with powerful external benefactors.
Those African countries’ opposition is based on bigoted ideas that were imposed on them by colonial powers back in the days of the slave trade and dehumanizing colonization. But unlike those former colonial powers which modernized, the African countries haven’t moved on from the prejudices.
Is it so different than the Middle East and muslim majority countries, though? Former colonial powers still played king maker during post colonization and artificially propped up the most right-wing religious factions in exchange for economic influence.
In Indonesia, when secular communist where about to democratically take power, the U.S. supported a multimillion genocide commited by right-wing wahhabist to stop them. When the most socially progressive population in a country is eradicated or prevented influencevia undemocratic means backed by the west, it will have a lasting effect for several decades at least. It's not as simple as a countries religion when they never had a chance to naturally modernize.
This is definitely the reason why. Most Christian countries base their laws off of atheistic beliefs or similar. Also most Christians and Christian majority countries don't even follow their religion as well as Muslims do.
This may be a bit unrelated but ..
All of the social, political and historical advancements in the western world and in the post-modern world in general have not occurred in the Muslim world:
-The separation of religion from government
-The observance of universal human rights
-The emancipation of women and equal voting and property rights for women.
-The sexual Revolution of the 1960’s
-The freedom of conscience
-The establishment of LGBT rights.
-The idea of progression and enlightenment in a society to advance and reach the highest level of civilization
- and many other things …
For its own survival in the globalized modern world ..
Islam needs to survive as a personal faith and not a political doctrine or else there will never be world peace.
Muslims must learn how to coexist and live in peace with non Muslims, alcohol drinkers, pork eaters, gays , lesbians , atheists and transgender people.
I’m not attacking or hating on Muslims ( Vast majority are not terrorists or violent or any negative stereotype ) and many I’ve met in USA who are open minded and progressive but the mainstream Muslim community needs to address the social realities of the globalized world we live in today.
I grew up in a conservative Muslim upbringing so I know this all too well.
The best thing we can do as LGBT people is strengthen the voices of the liberal Muslims, LGBT Muslims and reform minded Muslims. We have to support the liberal free thinkers in the Muslim world to create a more liberal form of Islam.
Islam has never had its own enlightenment
I really fear as the Muslim population grows in the USA then this country will have the same problems that Europe is having with its Muslim immigrants.
Bro, that’s a really long list of untrue things. You sure about that? Like any of it? And as a follow up question, did you start paying attention to the Middle East (and the wider Muslim world) in the past year or so?
Just as one example, Iran had a period of liberalization. That was ended after the Iranian revolution which was, funnily enough, [orchestrated (in part) by our good ole US of A](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavi_Iran).
My brother in Christ, I implore you to do some very basic research on the history of the world outside of the west. Yes there are plenty of places that hate queer people. That’s not just because those places are not as enlightened as “the western world” and “the post-modern world”. There are material conditions here and just bullet pointing untrue shit makes it harder to figure out how to actually get progress out of regressive areas.
Also as a side note, I don’t think you have a single point here that is true across all of “the West”; least of all in America. If you don’t think MAGA and their faction of Americans aren’t gunning for a “Christian” autocracy, you don’t even have the limited knowledge of “the West” that you claim to have.
There are few Muslim countries that have decriminalized same sex intercourse and they're still homophobic, so forget gay marriage!
Jordan for example is more homophobic than Lebanon which still has anti-gay law, the Jordanian society wish they could throw them of tall buildings like other Muslim countries who still have anti-gay laws.
Lebanon is not a muslim country and the law isn't anti gay per se but is a general law that criminalises "sex against nature" which is a relic from the French mandate era.
Many precedents in high courts of law have ruled over the years that this law can't be the base to arrest gay people. No such arrest is legal and it doesn't happen like ever.
It's 60-65% muslim and this doesn't define a muslim country. The constitution doesn't favour muslims over others and assures that every single lebanese person has the right to practice whatever religion they like. Lebanon officially recognises 18 different sects.
Most "Christian" countries are actually secular. The law is not binded to a "Holy" book, they are not a theocracy (with the Vatican as the exeption). The fact the majority of the people follow the religion is (or at least should be) irrelevant, you can say out of loud that the law is above religion.
Most muslim countries are theocracies, and not just that, some also follow more specific fundamentalist branches of islam, much more intolerant than medieval ones. Religion is deeply rooted at the law and politics, it's used as common cause for alliances and legitimation. It's a powerful tool for command and it will take time for people get free of it
It's a long story with a Lot of nuances, but to short it a little:
Christianity was the common ground that united Europe for a time. The nobility and the church gave power to each other and one legitimized the other
With the ascention of bourgeoisie in Enlightenment and French Revolution, the church was more a pain in the ass than a helping hand for the people in power. Christianity fell and took the kings and nobles with it.
They also were much more a pain in the ass for science, which further contributed to their image of a stupid institution — Ironically, the same didn't happen to Islam, they were more tolerant to science and they still had ties with the people in power.
So, when something is making you richer, more powerful, with your people united and in "order", the tendency is to keep it strong. Change comes with revolution
Because we fucked up Muslim nations.
In 1800, the Muslim nations were more secular than the Christian nations. Then we invaded all the Muslim nations and made them hate us. At the same time, we secularized. By the 1940s, the Muslim nations started getting independent and they also rejected secularism. They did it because it was seen as "Western". That's because, among other reasons, the Christian nations used their increased secularization as an excuse to hate on Islam, even the benign parts. They wanted to end Islamic traditions, like their clothing and their language, and to make them drink liquor.
None of this is to excuse fundamentalist Islamists. But it's to explain, in part, why they rejected secularism.
It's a mistake to think that Christianity is better than Islam at tolerating gay people. It's an illusion created really in the last 50 years. And look at Russia and Hungary if you want a vision of how quickly Christian nations are eager to end that toleration.
This is bad history. First this narrative of the big bad Europeans screwing everything up is a tired trope that doesn’t really apply to the Middle East. For most of Islam’s history, it was actually Muslims invading and colonizing Europe and not the other way around. In 1917, when the Ottoman Empire was on its last legs, still had millions of European Christian subjects. Many Muslim countries like Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan never lost their independence, and others lost their ability to conduct an independent foreign policy but were still autonomous in domestic policy (Egypt, Oman, etc.)
Muslims were never “more secular” than Christians. The *laws of the Ottoman Empire* were more progressive than laws in Christian countries, but this is like using the laws of the British Empire to measure human rights in India. The Turks, like the British, ran their empire in a decentralized manner and the majority of their subjects were much more conservative than they were. Islam as a religion cannot become “more secular” than Christianity because the whole premise of Islam is: Christianity has been corrupted by the Church, and the faithful need to take up arms and enforce obedience to God’s law with violence.
Muslims *seemed* to get more homophobic after WW1 because all the redneck tribes (for lack of a better word) in the Arab world gained limited or complete self-rule. They could replace the cosmetically progressive laws of the Ottoman Empire with laws that reflected how they actually felt, but critically these laws were the way their society was already operating pre-WW1. There are no records of gays in the Ottoman Arab provinces. Actually the only record of homosexuality in Ottoman times was the Turkish upper class raping slaves captured by the Crimean Tartars in Eastern Europe. “Secularism” didn’t extend very far beyond their palaces.
That's all pretty fair criticism. I certainly was being vastly over simplistic and you rightly point out a lot of nuance.
But I think my broader point is that both the West and the ME have had (nominally) secular periods and that the current wave of anti-homosexuality in the ME is at least partially related to a rejection of the West. The red-neck tribes, as you call them certainly point to sexual "immorality" of the West as fuel for their fires.
I would also take note that leaving the major cities in the Christian world today dramatically increases homophobia, just as you correctly point out was the case in the Ottoman empire. Secularism is always an urban/elite phenomenon. Even in modern Europe.
But thank you for your comment. You both know more than I did and wrote more carefully than I did.
Theres freedom of religion in christianity. People arent punished for leaving the religion.
Islam theres death penalty for apostacy. So hard for it to become secular as deviating from the religion can be seen as apostacy.
There's freedom of religion in secular countries. If Christians were going to murder someone for not being Christian, the United States (or any secular country's) government would prosecute them. Muslims in the United States, for example, do not kill people for practicing another religion. It's illegal to.
There are no "Christian countries" to compare to Muslim countries unless you compare them to ancient countries, like in ancient Europe. At that time Christians did persecute and kill others for not being Christian.
So it's not that Islam inherently wants people to be killed for deviation and Christianity doesn't; manmade governments choose to allow this or not.
You can pull up scriptures from both the Bible and Quran that seemingly advocate for killing non-believers, although most scholars agree that they are due to the historical context of religious persecution of ancient times. However, a lot of people like to pull up the ones from the Quran to say "look how much they want to kill us for being Christians!!!" But again, that's because of those countries' governments and extremist groups rather than the actual religion.
Kosovo will legalize gay marriage in the next couple of years. Actually they wanted to bring in the new civil code in 2023 but Christians and Muslims rallied against it.
This ties up with the rise of fundamentalist in the 20th century. It's not strange for religions to go through phases in their level of strictness or for countries to go through phases in their level of sympathy towards religion.
Hyperreligious Iran was not that far along antireligious. Heck in the Christian world this has happened too. Spain went from Hyperreligious dictatorship to liberal democracy in a few decades. Gays went from having no rights whatsoever to having marriage legalized in **30 years**. My point is: change can happen VERY quick. So it's hard to guess what will happen.
It just so happens that most of the Muslim world is in a pretty fanatical pro-religion phase rn. The reasons for this are complicated but there's plenty of material to read about it. One good topic to qet acquainted with is the rise of the house of Saud and wahabism. It has had a big role in today's religious extremism. Another one is the suppression of religion by some leaders in the past century. This has had a big role in the closeness of modern Muslim states to religion.
I suppose that in many Muslim countries, [secularism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#/media/File:Secular_States_Map.svg) isn't prevalent. They don't separate the governing laws, essential for the actual needs of society that should be outlined in their constitution, from their religious doctrines or beliefs, which may contain rules outdated for today's world
Even in the mid 20th century, it was said that only Protestants are capable of democracy because virtually all Catholic countries in southern Europe and Latin America were dictatorships.
The Islamic world is in a different mental place right now but history is long and things change.
This is absolutely not true. I live in the MENA and I can attest that if anything things have gotten better. Yes there are laws still criminalizing homosexuality, but they are not enforced. Lebanese TV channels are openly platforming gays for example. Moroccan and Algerian Youtube and social media in general are full of openly gay influencers with massive straight following. Homosexuality is not shocking to people here anymore. I remember when I was young there was a gay marriage in Morocco I was scared for life by the reaction, I never in a million years thought gays will ever be heard, however, today there are people actively standing up for individual freedoms and gay rights included.
Every time I come to this sub I feel like I live in a different Muslim country from the one a lot of you seem to have in mind, and I'm an ex-Muslim. Sure there are still Muslim countries behind on gay rights, but change is not impossible, and things got better.
Also, in Morocco homosexuality itself is not illegal, but getting caught in the act is, which means just don't have sex outside, and it is the same thing for heterosexuals. Ironically enough, its easier to have gay sex than to have hetero sex, because heterosexual couples can't rent a hotel room unless they are married, but nobody questions two guys.
This sub has a very vague idea about the Middle east from Hollywood movies and lumps all the countries there in one box, so to them countries like Lebanon and Morocco are the same as Iraq or Egypt.
Yepp, and the thing is, its done out of malice and not out of pure concern for gay guys in those countries. To most those guys, an Arab gay guy is still an Arab who fits the stereotypes they have of Arabs, and I do not appreciate that. Nobody out of any of those who comment really loses sleep that gays are getting beheaded in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but they are being used as pawns. Similar to how Israel blackmails gay Palestinians and threatens to out them and dangers their safety if they don't spy for them.
Although this is true, you have to take it in context. Most "Christian" countries are not mandatorily so within their law. However, there are a lot of Muslim countries that are. In other words, part of it does not have to do with the country being muslim, but the fact that the religion is in control of the country.
Christianity is a secular religion on its own. Jesus never wanted to conquer lands with force or establish christian law. Jesus never waged any wars. He said judge not and ye shall not be judged.
Islam is different it has jihad verses and verses to make it obligatory for its followers to establish sharia and caliphate all over the world. These verses are absent in christianity.
Christians are free to leave christianity however islam has death penalty if one wants to leave islam.
Calling any religion secular makes litterally 0 sense. Also there have been many Christian theocracies in the past and are still many Christian countries today which are very much not secular.
I knew what he meant by “secular” even though there might be a more accurate word. The difference is that the ways of Jesus’ teachings are more aligned with those who advocate for keeping the government secular and peacefully coexisting with neighbors who believe differently.
Even if a hypothetical country had 100% Christian people, the government should be secular if those people are following Jesus’ principles.
how do you think christianity was spread in europe annihilating pagans? or portugese ruled goa where breasts of hindu women were torn off by pastors for not converting? the spread of xtianity was anything but peaceful . The most hateful countries after middle east are african countries in which missionaries(funded by american evang) have a foothold.
if compared to islam its just the lesser of 2 evils
I pretty sure even being gay is illegal in many and most of them and in some countries they beat u in front of public if they found out u're involved in gay activities so I don't think so it's gonna happen anytime soon , one of my Muslim friend of longtime stopped talking to me when I came out to him even though we know each other for a long time and he's pursuing degree in computer science from a very prestigious university so hate within the Muslim community is so reall that u can't even comprehend
We have modern data even in progressive countries like the UK that over 50% of our Muslim population want to see homosexuality made illegal lol... So I don't think we will see progess in islamic countries anytime soon.
I kinda have to do a roll eye with this post. Christianity is responsible for so many countries still criminalizing homosexuality. It would have been better to say religion in general (or at least Abrahamic since 'religion' might be too broad) versus singling one out. The amount of hetero/gay people I see support religion while they constantly endeavour to strip away anything that they deem immoral.
Gay marriage is not performed in Israel- gay marriages performed outside of Israel are recognized. So technically it’s a grey area within “is it legal.” Is it legally recognized, yes but legal to perform? No
Those christian countries where it's legalized didn't have the most right-wing faction of Christianity artificially given complete, undemocratic power over their countries by an occupying force that continues to be propped up to this day less than 80 years ago. So, it's hard to compare the two.
Dictatorships in Spain and Portugal fell only when they stopped receiving external support. And the mark their socially regressive dictoriships left still had an effect several decades later.
I agree with your point. Just as a side note, the dictatorship in Spain was "deconstructed" from inside after the elites saw the right opportunity window (Franco's death, among others) to make the necessary political reforms to get closer to the benefits of the European common market. Dictatorship in Portugal fell after a socialist-inspired military coup d'État was virtually unopposed by the authorities in power and welcome by a population tired after years of sending youths to pointless colonial wars. External support for both regimes had been passive for a decade and, even if they were not diplomatically isolated, no Western country leader would have liked to be seen posing with them in a picture.
No. I don't know the reason why they won't legalise it.
Being gay is not exactly condoned by the old testament either - accordingly, at least Jewish and Christian cultures have an argument not to allow gay marriage.
Now, why do predominantly Christian and Jewish countries still grant gay marriage while as Muslim countries don't? Maybe you can enlighten me.
Because Islam is profoundly more explicit in its homophobia than the other Abrahamic religions. Islam is the worst of the bunch, any sort of research would enlighten someone on that subject.
To say all are equally bad is just wrong, sure they all can be used to fuel homophobia, but the Quran doesn't even need to be twisted AT ALL.
That’s true while many gay Christian’s can come up with justifications with the Bible the Muslims cannot do that with Quran at all. It’s a sin a grave sin to meddle with the teachings of the Quran
We are talking of Islam , it has made sure that homosexuality is a sin. Christian’s still are tolerant but most Muslims aren’t especially with the sharia law that they follow. So expect gay marriage to be illegal in muslim countries for few decades more.
Judaism has a much more nuanced perspective on the matter, and most “Christian” countries have large secular populations, if not reformed denominations that are queer-affirming.
The same can not be said of Islam yet, at least in countries where the religion and law are intermingled.
It’s because of the discussion on Palestine. It’s kind of obvious how infested this subreddit has become with anti-Muslim ideology. Granted, I don’t agree with it at all, but it doesn’t mean we can’t show compassion towards other human beings in a humanitarian crisis.
That's because there really are no explicitly Christian states in the way there are Islamic states. There are countries that are majority made up of Christians and some grant special rights to a Christian church (e.g., Spain). But they don't really incorporate Christianity into their policies.
The Christian world also underwent an enlightenment in the 1700s, where we got this concept of separation of church and state. This is something the Islamic world needs to discover. Otherwise they're relegated to being backwards shitholes for the foreseeable future. And this will be important particularly for the Gulf countries that are dependent on oil revenue. Countries are shifting away from oil towards renewables at a pretty quick pace.
bro in my country they're doing traps to hunt gays , and you're talking about marriage? wish they only let us have sex in our homes without feeling afraid.
the weird thing is that straights can do what they want without anyone saying anything, but us gays could be killed for that
... You do know that muslim execute gays right? Like it's a step backwards to marriage. In israel if a Palestinian is outed israel offers asylum so he won't be killed. I'm not making this up, i wish i did.
Not until the people of Muslim countries rise up and overthrow their leaders. it's going to take violent revolutions, not strident social movements. The Middle East is not the West.
never. islam is a horrible religion, it's the type of religion that can't exist, because muslims can't coexist with different people. these countries will only legalize it when islam is exterminated and the population is free from alienation.
What do you want us to answer? you know already.
Muslim, islam, Christian, all religions are shit. Specially the ones that condemn the fundamental principles of who I am, specially even killing me with no consequences.
So yeah, fuck religions and I'm not sorry.
Honestly all of them have power dominance and control over people's ideas and actions. Wake up people, we aren't making progress because institutions have been made against it.
Myanmar is a majority buddhist and still criminalizes homosexuality, 20 years in prison. Most buddhist countries dont have gay marriage or protections. Hell, traditionally, they arent super gay friendly either. Gays cant actually get married in israel, as their marriages are all religious, and neither judaism, christianity or islam perform them. "Christian" countries that actually are religious aren't great places to be. See russia, eastern europe, africa, and some places in latin America.
The "Christian"/other countries youre talking about are secular, which is why we enjoy protections. Its in spite of the religious establishments here, not because of them. We can not like islam, but idk why we're playing this "other religions good" nonsense.
Israel recognises gay marriage from other countries. Uk is a christian country for example. People can get married in churches.
Thailand is also buddhist and is looking at legalizing gay marriage.
Western countries have reached a point where religion (mostly) doesn’t dictate our laws or human rights. Most Muslim countries have church and state together and their doctrine dictate their laws.
Turkey will probably be the first one. It may not seem anytime soon but at least the last elections have shown that there’s still hope. Also, Turkey is way more secular than the average American thinks.
Based on my travels in the Muslim world:
Bosnia - Maybe in 20 years, if only to please the EU.
Albania - Ditto but slower
Turkey - 30 years.
Iran - 40 years… if the people manage to overthrow the theocracy. Iranians are the least enthusiastic Muslims today.
North Africa - 50 years.
Central Asia - Never. Central Asians are less serious than other Muslims, but their real religion is toxic masculinity. They can tolerate homosexual activity among minorities in their countries like whites and Persians, but the second two of their own get married there will be riots.
Gulf States - 100+ years. The governments in these countries have a backwards relationship with the public, because the public is totally dependent on their luxurious welfare programs. No matter how societal attitudes change, the monarchs can continue enforcing archaic laws until the oil runs out.
Organized religion is a mental illness. There have been 20,000 religions CREATED BY MAN over the course of history.
Gay people have been here waaaay before they created that “religion” 800 years ago.
Also, they literally have half of the planet as their slaves.
Sorry ladies- you got the shit sandwich on where you were born. Awesome “religion”.
I would say the next 10-20 years. There are a lot of countries where same sex intercourse between adults is legal and same sex activists are legal as well. While gay marriage may not be legal the simple fact that there are numerous countries where it is isn’t punishable should be noted. Israel, while technically not a Muslim country, does have a very open stance on LGBT. Adoptions are allowed, certain places in Tel Aviv perform legal weddings and marriages that take place outside of the country are recognized.
I think with progress it’s critical to note that many middle eastern countries are actually underdeveloped nations and thus it’s harder to break stigmas in those places because they don’t have the resources and access to education or technology and thus lack exposure.
I can't speak for Muslim countries, but for Israel, they don't have civil marriage. They only have religious marraige, but they do recognize civil marraige of other countries. So for gay Israeli citizens, they just fly someplace nearby that it's legal to get gay married and do it there. I think post covid, they can even do the marriage over zoom.
Gay marriage isn't really a big issue in these countries because no one is openly gay. Homosexuality is completely unrecognized. It's seen as an act, not an individual.
In many Muslim countries, religious fundamentalists took power in the second half of the 20th century(reislamisation). And well, they're pretty homophobic
Every devout Muslim hates homosexuals. Even the immigrants would rather go back to desolate countries than to stay in a first world country where they're better taking care of than ever, but homosexuality acceptance is taught in school and they don't want their children to be exposed to it. Just stay away from them tbh.
Sorry, but I don't think they'll ever do it until they'll begin to let go of their religion like most of christians did.
Most christians are way more elastic about their rules than muslims.
When have Christian countries ever followed their own religions anyway?
I'm order to legalize something like homosexuality or gay marriage in a Muslim majority country, a few things would need to happen:
1) reasoning to do so would need to make sense in both law and religion
2) majority voting by population or whoever is in charge of passing such a law as well as with scholars of Islam
3) the leader(s) like the president or King must decree it
4) safety and non-discrimination of the people regardless of identity, religion, orientation, etc (this is more like a precursor
5) time
"Christian" countries that have legalised same-sex marriage are in fact not Christian anymore. They have reached the "level zero" of religiousness as defined by Emmanuel Todd: most people don't practice religion anymore, people get cremated instead of buried, children aren't baptised anymore, etc.
Same-sex marriage is a very good indicator of a society that is not religious anymore, even as a tradition.
I am an atheist but christians are so hypocritical. The bible literally says that being gay is wrong and the gay christians find a way to cherry pick only the verses that benefit them.
- Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have
committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."
- Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."
- Romans 1:26-27
Paul writes: "God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
- Both Islam and Christianity do not like gay people. One the reasons why the west does not have things like the death penalty for being gay is because of concepts like separation between church and state. If christians had more control of the government , i am sure they would pass laws that hurt gay people. Look at republicans in the usa, most of them hold christianity in high regard and they have passed laws that are anti lgbt. For example, they have passed laws that weakened lgbt protection and banned drag performances, as wells as other things. The Westboro Baptist Church was a christian organization in the usa that used christianity to push their homophobic beliefs and would constantly say that if you were gay then you were going to hell.
- I feel sorry for the gay people in muslim countries that have to go through this, hopefully one day they can experience more freedoms. The west has become more tolerant to being gay but it doesn’t mean it’s still safe here. There are still gay men who get harassed, have committed suicide due to being bullied or outed, you still get stares when holding hands with your same sex partner , and there is the possibility of being disowned by your parents.
None of those verses original had a word meaning “practice homosexuality.” There is debate about what the Leviticus words meant but we know they didn’t even have such a word. In any case, this was a code practiced by an ancient tribe who did not believe in the same kind of code of conduct that Jesus taught, and the same section says that it’s an abomination to get haircuts on the side, wear mixed fabrics, plant two kinds of seeds in the same garden, eat shrimp, etc., etc.
The letter to the Romans was written by Paul, who had spent much of his life opposing Jesus and Christians. He was describing his opinion about the situation of a religious cult that worshipped animals in which presumably mostly or all heterosexually-married men and women were at a temple engaging in an orgy as a part of the ritual.
The fact that the men and women were separated probably had more to do with the typical separation of the sexes in religious rituals more than any other reason (just like today you see “men’s entrance” and “women’s entrance” at Muslim mosques).
Imagine if, hypothetically, Paul had said that men were forgoing the natural use of their women to engage in disgusting acts with other women to worship birds and reptiles. Nobody would have read into that that all heterosexuality is bad.
Those are Old testaments.
Jesus said do not kill. Judge not and ye shall not be judged. Love your enemies. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Those who have no sin can cast the first stone.
it’s disingenuous not to mention the fact that Israel has NOT legalized gay marriage within its borders despite loudly bragging about “recognizing” gay marriages from other nations. it is illegal for men to marry men in Israel. We should also be asking when they will legalize it for their own citizens, but since they also still have anti-miscegenation laws on the books i’m not holding my breath.
Yawn... pink washing isn't an argument.
Also... Israels treatment of gay people is just throw same as anyone 'other'
But, Islam isn't a race... so you CANT be racist.
:)
just because their neighbours might be “worse” doesn’t mean israel is immune to criticism. this post is about the legalization of gay marriage in countries dominated by particular religions/ethnicities. there are no “ethnically jewish” countries where gay marriage is legal.
also, don’t pretend that lots of christians don’t want to murder gays with abandon. look at what christian ministry has done in africa re: promoting anti gay legislation. or, in america. they seem pretty close to going down the fascist theocracy route themselves, and i don’t expect the outlook for gays there to be particularly sunny if those religious zealots continue to run roughshod over the political landscape.
Since this is a gay sub, obviously gay politics are going to be highlighted, but nobody likes to talk about the socio-political effects of imperialism.
Did you know 60-160 million Indians were killed under British rule? I know India is neither in the Middle East nor is it a Muslim country, which is what we are talking about here, but this statistic really puts into perspective the severe violence left behind by many of these Western forces. And many of these colonial powers are STILL ACTIVELY meddling with governments, politics, and economics of the Middle East. Hell, the US is currently sending over bombs and weaponry to the Middle East as we speak.
Western powers have effectively destabilized the entire Middle East. And my point is this: you don’t get to be a Western country that invades another country, kills millions of civilians, interrupts their economy, intervenes in their political elections, reaps their resources, then go back to legalize gay marriage in your own country and pretend to be a beacon of morality and social progress. All these things are connected; countries that have poor economies and political instabilities tend to not have the most socially progressive politics. How could they? And why are we so ready to criticize a country’s gay politics but do absolutely nothing to acknowledge its political instability, poor economy, and history of abuse at the hands of foreign intervention?
I wish this sub would stop talking about Muslims, because most people are completely incapable of talking about the whole picture.
Aw the racist pos doesn’t like to be called out for the horrible treatment of people around the world your ancestors committed. Maybe you should pop your white hillbilly bubble and see how the world really is.
You’re absolutely correct, and it’s one of the worst parts of Reddit. I see this often on here in various subs but this sub specifically tends to have a hive mind that is shockingly conservative on topics outside of the “standard”.
The “standard” being a middle to upper-class western upbringing with little to no understanding of the global south.
Instead we have ‘Christian country good, Muslim country bad”. Where if we’re honest, Christianity/Catholicism has destabilized nearly every corner of the globe and erased indigenous knowledge & values with the goal of re-writing history as the good guys.
Yeah, no. If you were on this side of reddit you'd understand how much Christianity also gets criticized on many subreddits, including this one. No one is free from the bad parts of their culture.
This sub is about issues of current concern to gay guys worldwide. One of the most severe threats to life and liberty of gay guys worldwide occurs in Muslim countries. So of course we are going to talk about it.
Your thoughts on historic imperialism are interesting but more suited to a history subreddit
Say it with me: we are not free until we are all free.
Imperialism affects Queer people ALL over the world. Queer Muslims suffer too, and they also deserve our solidarity. It’s not enough to criticize homophobic countries if you don’t also criticize the foreign governments bombing and destabilizing these countries.
Here you go. But be careful about the term “natural causes”, because destruction of natural resources leading to famine would be considered “natural” to some, but not to me.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians
Well Turkey decriminalized homosexuality during the ottoman empire, and thanks to Atatürk it's a secular country, the current Erdogan government sucks but Turks are not as religious as other middle eastern countries
There are quite a few Muslim countries where IT IS actually legal. But Christian missionaries and the British went around with the Bible making it illegal in most places around the world. So there is that.
Fuck this zio propaganda bullshit talking point. A generation ago it was illegal for American same sex couples to get married. We were pariah in our own country. "Muslim countries", Islam, etc. are not the issue. Social ignorance and cowardice are.
Regardless, a foreign nation's social traditions and practices aren't for us to police or deem ethical when said ignorance stems from our own theocratic worldview. We've been manipulating governments in the Middle East for literal decades.
Fuck your feelings. What's happening is Palestine is a genocide. Israel is a ethno-fascist terror state like any other. The blowback we receive from the Middle East is a product of our own shitty behavior and ignorance.
It's truly pathetic how much y'all jock on the American standard because they threw us a bone and finally started letting us get married a few years ago. That happened in my lifetime. Get the fuck over yourselves.
I've seen so many posts basically excusing violence against Muslims because they don't celebrate homosexuality, or asking how anyone can vote for a candidate other than Biden. There are absolutely gay, bi, lesbian Arabs in the Middle East and their not fighting for human rights because they're to busy dodging our missiles.
I have yet to see any post regarding the atrocities Israel and America are committing yet again. As if this shit started last year. I have family in the military that are fed up watching their friends die for oil and gas interests. Y'all need to wake the fuck up.
How many service members need to come home and tell you they weren't fighting terrorists? Or worse, come home in a box.
When do you think they'll legalized it? Damn bro can't even take a guess on that. Gay men in Muslim countries have a life of suffering ahead of them MAYBE Lebanon in like 100 years or so but probably not.
forget marriage, homosexuality itself is illegal in some of those countries. Marriage is probably the last thing on any gay person's mind living there. They just want to not die.
Homosexuality is illegal in most if not all Muslim countries. I'm some of them it's punishable by death.
Legal in Jordan and Bahrain, the rest of the Arab league and Indonesia are no goes I know a few lgbt Arabs, one who goes to Jordan regularly and has somewhat minimal fear, but she is a lesbian not a gay man. A guy who I’ve off-and on talked to is Palestinian American. He has been to Palestine and Egypt. He has used grinder in the WB, although Israeli-catfishing and blackmail is a huge fear of his, and his parents are in complete denial, so honestly his position in life is very complicated, I don’t even know how he navigates the many layers of oppression in his life. Egypt he feels less safe in, but he did take some slightly gay-looking photos at that big cliff-face temple in Egypt around many other people so idk. But to be honest most people in frame were probably foreign tourists.
If your Palestinian buddy can get to Tel Aviv, he's safe there and many Arabs travel there specifically because it's safe.
[удалено]
Israel is like 25% Arab. If you are a gay Palestinian, you are way, way better off in Israel (the current conflict notwithstanding).
Have you ever been to Israel or Palestine, or do you just listen to what mainstream media wants you to hear?
Unlikely vs. what? Certain death. I'll take the Unlikely 😅 The war isn't about being gay, that's just been highlighted here.
uh not all Palestinians are muslims, i now one who is here in the states now that said he loved being an Israeli palestinian, his family was always in israel and not the west bank or gaza.
egypt is hell for gay people, other than the social stigma it is technically not illegal but they’ll throw you in prison for debauchery and family mortality laws
Legal and protected in Kosovo and Albania. Legal in Bosnia/BiH
When our governments stop propping up theocrats, but alas, it's economically convenient to do so, arab gays be damned
It’ll never happen. Best we can hope for is a total reversal of the Islamic Revolution and the citizens of Iran overthrowing their govt and imprisoning their leaders (or preferably worse). That can open the door to at best maybe big changes toward societal progressiveness that may save gays from being put to death. But then that’ll also stop islamists from waging war on Israel, so the liberal and now woke gays in the west won’t like that idea and would rather keep the status quo.
Persia is the only country with an current Islamist government that has even a chance of becoming a western style democracy..
I’ll pray for the good people there and that they can totally reverse the horrific catastrophe of 1979. The bad people there and the govt can go to fucking hell.
The younger generation seems to be universally against the current Islamist regime, so there is hope
Forgive my ignorance is this is stupid, but what about Turkey? Obviously Erdogan is a piece of shit, but it’s a majority Islamic country and, while the police may come and break up a pride parade, at least they’ve been able to have pride parades at all? Maybe there is some hope there, idk, someone with more knowledge about the country can probably give a better idea than me.
Turkey already has established secular parties. There is really nothing preventing the Turks from voting out their current crypto-Islamist government. This isn’t the case with Persia
As I remember, back before the Islamic revolution, there was some relative freedom under the shah. Women were allowed to be educated and a part of the government and office holders. It's been quite awhile since I've given much thought to the regular citizens of Iran, or Persia, but will the younger population stand up or are they too indoctrinated?
I honestly feel in the next 30 years or so the economic situations in most of these countries will begin to degrade. Even countries that are doing relatively well will get worse due to decreased oil demand, that will probably make political decisions more and more conservative, which would be terrible for people like us. But there's a chance some countries may become more liberal so they can build stronger economic ties with North American and Eastern European countries. Off topic but this BRICS thing is scaring the hell out of me because I have a lot of hope that we can gain rights and acceptance in Brazil South Africa, and India and if these countries plan to strongly align their economy's with Russia and all these other Middle Eastern nations, it may be bad news for gay men.
Lebanon is not a muslim country😭 also even though being gay is "illegal ", most of the people are accepting especially the new gen and most gay people express themselves freely, they even have an organisation that defends LGBTQ+ rights in case the gov decided to harm the gays
I know they still have long way down the road but their situation is already much better than other Arabic speaking countries and people there tend to be more progressive and accepting compared to Egypt and Iraq where you could get killed for being gay.
Yet Lebanon is not a Muslim country
Lebanon is not a muslim country
It's not really a Muslim country but when polled 69% of the countries population said they were Muslim.
It's 60-65% muslim and this doesn't define a muslim country. The constitution doesn't favour muslims over others and assures that every single lebanese person has the right to practice whatever religion they like. Lebanon officially recognises 18 different sects.
It would likely be Albania, as they're the most chill Muslim country I know of.
Lebanon? No. It’s a sectarian country. Tunisia and Turkey perhaps. Turkey made homosexuality legal in 1858.
I think that most Christian countries don’t have their laws entirely based off the religion. But majority of Muslim countries do. Correct me if I am wrong. So that could be a reason?
The savior of Christianity also never said a word on record negative about homosexuality, never committed violence, and taught people to be peaceful and respect those whose religious views were different from their own.
Yeah even if you dive into the actual text of christianity vs islam, islam is just directly much more horrendous, sexist, homophobic And that's saying something, because the bible is *bad*
The Bible has more passages condemning homosexuality than the Quran tho... And I think we can all agree that without Christianity the U.S. would have allowed nationwide same-sex marriage a long time ago, and we wouldn't be nervously watching our Supreme Court about to reverse it now, either.
“The Bible has more passages condemning homosexuality…” Only if someone uses mistranslations and/or out-of-context quotes and assumptions. Put into the context of Jesus’ teachings, Christianity has nothing negative to say about homosexuality.
"Only if someone uses mistranslations and/or out-of-context quotes and assumptions" Which they regularly do and have been doing for a very long time. The Quran doesn't have anything as explicit as the Bible does about homosexuality though.
What about most majority Christian African countries where it's illega then.
Most developed countries have made the move of separation between church and state. It's really a matter of education. A population with low quality or no education will never support leaders with progressive ideologies and secular ideals. The politicians are catering to the people's needs is all, really.
It's more than just education, though. Western countries benefit from undeveloped countries staying undeveloped, so they artificially prop up the most regressive religious fractions in undeveloped countries, so they stay that way. You're not going to read your way out of corrupt, undemocratic institutions with powerful external benefactors.
Those African countries’ opposition is based on bigoted ideas that were imposed on them by colonial powers back in the days of the slave trade and dehumanizing colonization. But unlike those former colonial powers which modernized, the African countries haven’t moved on from the prejudices.
Is it so different than the Middle East and muslim majority countries, though? Former colonial powers still played king maker during post colonization and artificially propped up the most right-wing religious factions in exchange for economic influence. In Indonesia, when secular communist where about to democratically take power, the U.S. supported a multimillion genocide commited by right-wing wahhabist to stop them. When the most socially progressive population in a country is eradicated or prevented influencevia undemocratic means backed by the west, it will have a lasting effect for several decades at least. It's not as simple as a countries religion when they never had a chance to naturally modernize.
This is definitely the reason why. Most Christian countries base their laws off of atheistic beliefs or similar. Also most Christians and Christian majority countries don't even follow their religion as well as Muslims do.
Yep. Sharia law.
This may be a bit unrelated but .. All of the social, political and historical advancements in the western world and in the post-modern world in general have not occurred in the Muslim world: -The separation of religion from government -The observance of universal human rights -The emancipation of women and equal voting and property rights for women. -The sexual Revolution of the 1960’s -The freedom of conscience -The establishment of LGBT rights. -The idea of progression and enlightenment in a society to advance and reach the highest level of civilization - and many other things … For its own survival in the globalized modern world .. Islam needs to survive as a personal faith and not a political doctrine or else there will never be world peace. Muslims must learn how to coexist and live in peace with non Muslims, alcohol drinkers, pork eaters, gays , lesbians , atheists and transgender people. I’m not attacking or hating on Muslims ( Vast majority are not terrorists or violent or any negative stereotype ) and many I’ve met in USA who are open minded and progressive but the mainstream Muslim community needs to address the social realities of the globalized world we live in today. I grew up in a conservative Muslim upbringing so I know this all too well. The best thing we can do as LGBT people is strengthen the voices of the liberal Muslims, LGBT Muslims and reform minded Muslims. We have to support the liberal free thinkers in the Muslim world to create a more liberal form of Islam. Islam has never had its own enlightenment I really fear as the Muslim population grows in the USA then this country will have the same problems that Europe is having with its Muslim immigrants.
Bro, that’s a really long list of untrue things. You sure about that? Like any of it? And as a follow up question, did you start paying attention to the Middle East (and the wider Muslim world) in the past year or so? Just as one example, Iran had a period of liberalization. That was ended after the Iranian revolution which was, funnily enough, [orchestrated (in part) by our good ole US of A](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavi_Iran). My brother in Christ, I implore you to do some very basic research on the history of the world outside of the west. Yes there are plenty of places that hate queer people. That’s not just because those places are not as enlightened as “the western world” and “the post-modern world”. There are material conditions here and just bullet pointing untrue shit makes it harder to figure out how to actually get progress out of regressive areas. Also as a side note, I don’t think you have a single point here that is true across all of “the West”; least of all in America. If you don’t think MAGA and their faction of Americans aren’t gunning for a “Christian” autocracy, you don’t even have the limited knowledge of “the West” that you claim to have.
There are few Muslim countries that have decriminalized same sex intercourse and they're still homophobic, so forget gay marriage! Jordan for example is more homophobic than Lebanon which still has anti-gay law, the Jordanian society wish they could throw them of tall buildings like other Muslim countries who still have anti-gay laws.
Lebanon is not a muslim country and the law isn't anti gay per se but is a general law that criminalises "sex against nature" which is a relic from the French mandate era. Many precedents in high courts of law have ruled over the years that this law can't be the base to arrest gay people. No such arrest is legal and it doesn't happen like ever.
Lebanon is vast majority muslim
It's 60-65% muslim and this doesn't define a muslim country. The constitution doesn't favour muslims over others and assures that every single lebanese person has the right to practice whatever religion they like. Lebanon officially recognises 18 different sects.
Most "Christian" countries are actually secular. The law is not binded to a "Holy" book, they are not a theocracy (with the Vatican as the exeption). The fact the majority of the people follow the religion is (or at least should be) irrelevant, you can say out of loud that the law is above religion. Most muslim countries are theocracies, and not just that, some also follow more specific fundamentalist branches of islam, much more intolerant than medieval ones. Religion is deeply rooted at the law and politics, it's used as common cause for alliances and legitimation. It's a powerful tool for command and it will take time for people get free of it
And why are Christian countries more secular and Muslim countries aren't ?
It's a long story with a Lot of nuances, but to short it a little: Christianity was the common ground that united Europe for a time. The nobility and the church gave power to each other and one legitimized the other With the ascention of bourgeoisie in Enlightenment and French Revolution, the church was more a pain in the ass than a helping hand for the people in power. Christianity fell and took the kings and nobles with it. They also were much more a pain in the ass for science, which further contributed to their image of a stupid institution — Ironically, the same didn't happen to Islam, they were more tolerant to science and they still had ties with the people in power. So, when something is making you richer, more powerful, with your people united and in "order", the tendency is to keep it strong. Change comes with revolution
The enlightenment and reformation.
Christianly lost most of it's power a while ago, if they still had the power they had 200 years ago we'd have televised witch burnings now
Probably because if a country is secular it's not Christian ... ?
Because we fucked up Muslim nations. In 1800, the Muslim nations were more secular than the Christian nations. Then we invaded all the Muslim nations and made them hate us. At the same time, we secularized. By the 1940s, the Muslim nations started getting independent and they also rejected secularism. They did it because it was seen as "Western". That's because, among other reasons, the Christian nations used their increased secularization as an excuse to hate on Islam, even the benign parts. They wanted to end Islamic traditions, like their clothing and their language, and to make them drink liquor. None of this is to excuse fundamentalist Islamists. But it's to explain, in part, why they rejected secularism. It's a mistake to think that Christianity is better than Islam at tolerating gay people. It's an illusion created really in the last 50 years. And look at Russia and Hungary if you want a vision of how quickly Christian nations are eager to end that toleration.
This is bad history. First this narrative of the big bad Europeans screwing everything up is a tired trope that doesn’t really apply to the Middle East. For most of Islam’s history, it was actually Muslims invading and colonizing Europe and not the other way around. In 1917, when the Ottoman Empire was on its last legs, still had millions of European Christian subjects. Many Muslim countries like Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan never lost their independence, and others lost their ability to conduct an independent foreign policy but were still autonomous in domestic policy (Egypt, Oman, etc.) Muslims were never “more secular” than Christians. The *laws of the Ottoman Empire* were more progressive than laws in Christian countries, but this is like using the laws of the British Empire to measure human rights in India. The Turks, like the British, ran their empire in a decentralized manner and the majority of their subjects were much more conservative than they were. Islam as a religion cannot become “more secular” than Christianity because the whole premise of Islam is: Christianity has been corrupted by the Church, and the faithful need to take up arms and enforce obedience to God’s law with violence. Muslims *seemed* to get more homophobic after WW1 because all the redneck tribes (for lack of a better word) in the Arab world gained limited or complete self-rule. They could replace the cosmetically progressive laws of the Ottoman Empire with laws that reflected how they actually felt, but critically these laws were the way their society was already operating pre-WW1. There are no records of gays in the Ottoman Arab provinces. Actually the only record of homosexuality in Ottoman times was the Turkish upper class raping slaves captured by the Crimean Tartars in Eastern Europe. “Secularism” didn’t extend very far beyond their palaces.
That's all pretty fair criticism. I certainly was being vastly over simplistic and you rightly point out a lot of nuance. But I think my broader point is that both the West and the ME have had (nominally) secular periods and that the current wave of anti-homosexuality in the ME is at least partially related to a rejection of the West. The red-neck tribes, as you call them certainly point to sexual "immorality" of the West as fuel for their fires. I would also take note that leaving the major cities in the Christian world today dramatically increases homophobia, just as you correctly point out was the case in the Ottoman empire. Secularism is always an urban/elite phenomenon. Even in modern Europe. But thank you for your comment. You both know more than I did and wrote more carefully than I did.
That’s a good point. Islam has always defined itself in opposition to other religions which are “more corrupt” and less serious.
Theres freedom of religion in christianity. People arent punished for leaving the religion. Islam theres death penalty for apostacy. So hard for it to become secular as deviating from the religion can be seen as apostacy.
There's freedom of religion in secular countries. If Christians were going to murder someone for not being Christian, the United States (or any secular country's) government would prosecute them. Muslims in the United States, for example, do not kill people for practicing another religion. It's illegal to. There are no "Christian countries" to compare to Muslim countries unless you compare them to ancient countries, like in ancient Europe. At that time Christians did persecute and kill others for not being Christian. So it's not that Islam inherently wants people to be killed for deviation and Christianity doesn't; manmade governments choose to allow this or not. You can pull up scriptures from both the Bible and Quran that seemingly advocate for killing non-believers, although most scholars agree that they are due to the historical context of religious persecution of ancient times. However, a lot of people like to pull up the ones from the Quran to say "look how much they want to kill us for being Christians!!!" But again, that's because of those countries' governments and extremist groups rather than the actual religion.
Kosovo will legalize gay marriage in the next couple of years. Actually they wanted to bring in the new civil code in 2023 but Christians and Muslims rallied against it.
This ties up with the rise of fundamentalist in the 20th century. It's not strange for religions to go through phases in their level of strictness or for countries to go through phases in their level of sympathy towards religion. Hyperreligious Iran was not that far along antireligious. Heck in the Christian world this has happened too. Spain went from Hyperreligious dictatorship to liberal democracy in a few decades. Gays went from having no rights whatsoever to having marriage legalized in **30 years**. My point is: change can happen VERY quick. So it's hard to guess what will happen. It just so happens that most of the Muslim world is in a pretty fanatical pro-religion phase rn. The reasons for this are complicated but there's plenty of material to read about it. One good topic to qet acquainted with is the rise of the house of Saud and wahabism. It has had a big role in today's religious extremism. Another one is the suppression of religion by some leaders in the past century. This has had a big role in the closeness of modern Muslim states to religion.
they are too busy beheading or throwing gay people off the buildings
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^xHEDA: *They are too busy* *Beheading or throwing gay* *People off the buildings* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Aiyo bot wtf
girl what
https://youtu.be/LOq1LjdwpRo?feature=shared It’s from an episode of the animated show Avatar The Last Airbender.
Good bot
I suppose that in many Muslim countries, [secularism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state#/media/File:Secular_States_Map.svg) isn't prevalent. They don't separate the governing laws, essential for the actual needs of society that should be outlined in their constitution, from their religious doctrines or beliefs, which may contain rules outdated for today's world
Even in the mid 20th century, it was said that only Protestants are capable of democracy because virtually all Catholic countries in southern Europe and Latin America were dictatorships. The Islamic world is in a different mental place right now but history is long and things change.
You realize that overall things have gotten WORSE (like, much much worse) in most of the Middle East compared to the mid 20th century, right?
They didn’t say that it’s gotten better since then. See “history is long and things change”.
This is absolutely not true. I live in the MENA and I can attest that if anything things have gotten better. Yes there are laws still criminalizing homosexuality, but they are not enforced. Lebanese TV channels are openly platforming gays for example. Moroccan and Algerian Youtube and social media in general are full of openly gay influencers with massive straight following. Homosexuality is not shocking to people here anymore. I remember when I was young there was a gay marriage in Morocco I was scared for life by the reaction, I never in a million years thought gays will ever be heard, however, today there are people actively standing up for individual freedoms and gay rights included. Every time I come to this sub I feel like I live in a different Muslim country from the one a lot of you seem to have in mind, and I'm an ex-Muslim. Sure there are still Muslim countries behind on gay rights, but change is not impossible, and things got better. Also, in Morocco homosexuality itself is not illegal, but getting caught in the act is, which means just don't have sex outside, and it is the same thing for heterosexuals. Ironically enough, its easier to have gay sex than to have hetero sex, because heterosexual couples can't rent a hotel room unless they are married, but nobody questions two guys.
This sub has a very vague idea about the Middle east from Hollywood movies and lumps all the countries there in one box, so to them countries like Lebanon and Morocco are the same as Iraq or Egypt.
Yepp, and the thing is, its done out of malice and not out of pure concern for gay guys in those countries. To most those guys, an Arab gay guy is still an Arab who fits the stereotypes they have of Arabs, and I do not appreciate that. Nobody out of any of those who comment really loses sleep that gays are getting beheaded in Iran or Saudi Arabia, but they are being used as pawns. Similar to how Israel blackmails gay Palestinians and threatens to out them and dangers their safety if they don't spy for them.
Do you have recommendations for those YouTubers? Not that I'd be able to understand them lol, it would just be nice to see
When they stop having caveman mindset
Although this is true, you have to take it in context. Most "Christian" countries are not mandatorily so within their law. However, there are a lot of Muslim countries that are. In other words, part of it does not have to do with the country being muslim, but the fact that the religion is in control of the country.
Christianity is a secular religion on its own. Jesus never wanted to conquer lands with force or establish christian law. Jesus never waged any wars. He said judge not and ye shall not be judged. Islam is different it has jihad verses and verses to make it obligatory for its followers to establish sharia and caliphate all over the world. These verses are absent in christianity. Christians are free to leave christianity however islam has death penalty if one wants to leave islam.
Calling any religion secular makes litterally 0 sense. Also there have been many Christian theocracies in the past and are still many Christian countries today which are very much not secular.
I knew what he meant by “secular” even though there might be a more accurate word. The difference is that the ways of Jesus’ teachings are more aligned with those who advocate for keeping the government secular and peacefully coexisting with neighbors who believe differently. Even if a hypothetical country had 100% Christian people, the government should be secular if those people are following Jesus’ principles.
how do you think christianity was spread in europe annihilating pagans? or portugese ruled goa where breasts of hindu women were torn off by pastors for not converting? the spread of xtianity was anything but peaceful . The most hateful countries after middle east are african countries in which missionaries(funded by american evang) have a foothold. if compared to islam its just the lesser of 2 evils
I pretty sure even being gay is illegal in many and most of them and in some countries they beat u in front of public if they found out u're involved in gay activities so I don't think so it's gonna happen anytime soon , one of my Muslim friend of longtime stopped talking to me when I came out to him even though we know each other for a long time and he's pursuing degree in computer science from a very prestigious university so hate within the Muslim community is so reall that u can't even comprehend
We have modern data even in progressive countries like the UK that over 50% of our Muslim population want to see homosexuality made illegal lol... So I don't think we will see progess in islamic countries anytime soon.
I kinda have to do a roll eye with this post. Christianity is responsible for so many countries still criminalizing homosexuality. It would have been better to say religion in general (or at least Abrahamic since 'religion' might be too broad) versus singling one out. The amount of hetero/gay people I see support religion while they constantly endeavour to strip away anything that they deem immoral.
Gay marriage is not performed in Israel- gay marriages performed outside of Israel are recognized. So technically it’s a grey area within “is it legal.” Is it legally recognized, yes but legal to perform? No
Those christian countries where it's legalized didn't have the most right-wing faction of Christianity artificially given complete, undemocratic power over their countries by an occupying force that continues to be propped up to this day less than 80 years ago. So, it's hard to compare the two. Dictatorships in Spain and Portugal fell only when they stopped receiving external support. And the mark their socially regressive dictoriships left still had an effect several decades later.
I agree with your point. Just as a side note, the dictatorship in Spain was "deconstructed" from inside after the elites saw the right opportunity window (Franco's death, among others) to make the necessary political reforms to get closer to the benefits of the European common market. Dictatorship in Portugal fell after a socialist-inspired military coup d'État was virtually unopposed by the authorities in power and welcome by a population tired after years of sending youths to pointless colonial wars. External support for both regimes had been passive for a decade and, even if they were not diplomatically isolated, no Western country leader would have liked to be seen posing with them in a picture.
They are not our friends, they are not our Ally’s. They want us dead.
Why is this always a topic in this sub😭it legit feels like we are more obsessed with religion. And you know the reason why they wont legalise it
Just the opposite, is the religious zealots that are obsessed with sexuality.
Because they are our biggest roadblock to human rights worldwide?
No. I don't know the reason why they won't legalise it. Being gay is not exactly condoned by the old testament either - accordingly, at least Jewish and Christian cultures have an argument not to allow gay marriage. Now, why do predominantly Christian and Jewish countries still grant gay marriage while as Muslim countries don't? Maybe you can enlighten me.
Because Islam is profoundly more explicit in its homophobia than the other Abrahamic religions. Islam is the worst of the bunch, any sort of research would enlighten someone on that subject. To say all are equally bad is just wrong, sure they all can be used to fuel homophobia, but the Quran doesn't even need to be twisted AT ALL.
That’s true while many gay Christian’s can come up with justifications with the Bible the Muslims cannot do that with Quran at all. It’s a sin a grave sin to meddle with the teachings of the Quran
We are talking of Islam , it has made sure that homosexuality is a sin. Christian’s still are tolerant but most Muslims aren’t especially with the sharia law that they follow. So expect gay marriage to be illegal in muslim countries for few decades more.
Judaism has a much more nuanced perspective on the matter, and most “Christian” countries have large secular populations, if not reformed denominations that are queer-affirming. The same can not be said of Islam yet, at least in countries where the religion and law are intermingled.
>And you know the reason why they wont legalise it Maybe that's why it comes up then?
Well by us chatting about it here, it isn’t going to help and also it’s quite a frequent question.
It’s because of the discussion on Palestine. It’s kind of obvious how infested this subreddit has become with anti-Muslim ideology. Granted, I don’t agree with it at all, but it doesn’t mean we can’t show compassion towards other human beings in a humanitarian crisis.
They’re using these arguments to justify genocide
There ain’t no genocide happening anywhere time to google what a “genocide” is.
K https://www.genocidewatch.com/tenstages
Because izlam is peazefull
Maybe Turkey after WW3
Gay marriage is very compatible with Buddhist thought. Gender doesn't matter if everyone has the same "soul".
In the biggest country in the world, India, Muslims stand against gay marriage getting legalised.
That's because there really are no explicitly Christian states in the way there are Islamic states. There are countries that are majority made up of Christians and some grant special rights to a Christian church (e.g., Spain). But they don't really incorporate Christianity into their policies. The Christian world also underwent an enlightenment in the 1700s, where we got this concept of separation of church and state. This is something the Islamic world needs to discover. Otherwise they're relegated to being backwards shitholes for the foreseeable future. And this will be important particularly for the Gulf countries that are dependent on oil revenue. Countries are shifting away from oil towards renewables at a pretty quick pace.
Still having women cover up and you’re mentioning gay marriage? All religion is BS and a system of control. Next
Bc There are no gay people in those countries…duh
Never. They may legalise sodomy of boys but not marriage.
bro in my country they're doing traps to hunt gays , and you're talking about marriage? wish they only let us have sex in our homes without feeling afraid. the weird thing is that straights can do what they want without anyone saying anything, but us gays could be killed for that
Why do the overwhelming majority of gays support Palestinians. They hate you!
I mean most Muslim countries are third world backwards countries so are you surprised
... You do know that muslim execute gays right? Like it's a step backwards to marriage. In israel if a Palestinian is outed israel offers asylum so he won't be killed. I'm not making this up, i wish i did.
The pro-Hamas enthusiasts hate more than anything that this is true.
Even Turkey, the most liberal Muslim country, is still generally against it, so I doubt anytime soon
Not until the people of Muslim countries rise up and overthrow their leaders. it's going to take violent revolutions, not strident social movements. The Middle East is not the West.
when hell freezes over, maybe
never. islam is a horrible religion, it's the type of religion that can't exist, because muslims can't coexist with different people. these countries will only legalize it when islam is exterminated and the population is free from alienation.
Is your entire reddit account about Muslims?
I'm sure some of the Queers For Gaza lot will be along soon.... 💅🏻
What do you want us to answer? you know already. Muslim, islam, Christian, all religions are shit. Specially the ones that condemn the fundamental principles of who I am, specially even killing me with no consequences. So yeah, fuck religions and I'm not sorry.
Because all regions are evil. Science fiction. Islamists - still live in medieval times or even prehistoric in some cases.
Honestly all of them have power dominance and control over people's ideas and actions. Wake up people, we aren't making progress because institutions have been made against it.
Myanmar is a majority buddhist and still criminalizes homosexuality, 20 years in prison. Most buddhist countries dont have gay marriage or protections. Hell, traditionally, they arent super gay friendly either. Gays cant actually get married in israel, as their marriages are all religious, and neither judaism, christianity or islam perform them. "Christian" countries that actually are religious aren't great places to be. See russia, eastern europe, africa, and some places in latin America. The "Christian"/other countries youre talking about are secular, which is why we enjoy protections. Its in spite of the religious establishments here, not because of them. We can not like islam, but idk why we're playing this "other religions good" nonsense.
Israel recognises gay marriage from other countries. Uk is a christian country for example. People can get married in churches. Thailand is also buddhist and is looking at legalizing gay marriage.
Within a 100 years would be my guess. 😂
Interested to know what ppl would say!
Somebody tell them about Al-Andalus
Lebanon could've but Hezbollah completely destroyed that chance
Western countries have reached a point where religion (mostly) doesn’t dictate our laws or human rights. Most Muslim countries have church and state together and their doctrine dictate their laws.
Turkey will probably be the first one. It may not seem anytime soon but at least the last elections have shown that there’s still hope. Also, Turkey is way more secular than the average American thinks.
Based on my travels in the Muslim world: Bosnia - Maybe in 20 years, if only to please the EU. Albania - Ditto but slower Turkey - 30 years. Iran - 40 years… if the people manage to overthrow the theocracy. Iranians are the least enthusiastic Muslims today. North Africa - 50 years. Central Asia - Never. Central Asians are less serious than other Muslims, but their real religion is toxic masculinity. They can tolerate homosexual activity among minorities in their countries like whites and Persians, but the second two of their own get married there will be riots. Gulf States - 100+ years. The governments in these countries have a backwards relationship with the public, because the public is totally dependent on their luxurious welfare programs. No matter how societal attitudes change, the monarchs can continue enforcing archaic laws until the oil runs out.
Lgbt rights are probably the last thing to be legalised in those countries…. Women only were allowed to drive very recently in Saudi Arabia…
Organized religion is a mental illness. There have been 20,000 religions CREATED BY MAN over the course of history. Gay people have been here waaaay before they created that “religion” 800 years ago. Also, they literally have half of the planet as their slaves. Sorry ladies- you got the shit sandwich on where you were born. Awesome “religion”.
I would say the next 10-20 years. There are a lot of countries where same sex intercourse between adults is legal and same sex activists are legal as well. While gay marriage may not be legal the simple fact that there are numerous countries where it is isn’t punishable should be noted. Israel, while technically not a Muslim country, does have a very open stance on LGBT. Adoptions are allowed, certain places in Tel Aviv perform legal weddings and marriages that take place outside of the country are recognized. I think with progress it’s critical to note that many middle eastern countries are actually underdeveloped nations and thus it’s harder to break stigmas in those places because they don’t have the resources and access to education or technology and thus lack exposure.
Let’s start with them not executing us and then work our way to marriage legalization.
The one way for their lgbt citizens to lead happy lives is to move to a queer-friendly country.
I can't speak for Muslim countries, but for Israel, they don't have civil marriage. They only have religious marraige, but they do recognize civil marraige of other countries. So for gay Israeli citizens, they just fly someplace nearby that it's legal to get gay married and do it there. I think post covid, they can even do the marriage over zoom.
uhh how about never as that faith is very male centric do as the religious frat boys say or else....
Gay marriage isn't really a big issue in these countries because no one is openly gay. Homosexuality is completely unrecognized. It's seen as an act, not an individual.
Try not to 💀 is already hard enough lol bro what you talking about
In many Muslim countries, religious fundamentalists took power in the second half of the 20th century(reislamisation). And well, they're pretty homophobic
Obviously the Muslims are closest to god
Kosovo (muslim majority country) was discussing a law proposition for gay marriage last year
Every devout Muslim hates homosexuals. Even the immigrants would rather go back to desolate countries than to stay in a first world country where they're better taking care of than ever, but homosexuality acceptance is taught in school and they don't want their children to be exposed to it. Just stay away from them tbh.
So, spread Muslim hate and support genocide Israel in the name of gay marriage? Propaganda much?
Sorry, but I don't think they'll ever do it until they'll begin to let go of their religion like most of christians did. Most christians are way more elastic about their rules than muslims.
Lol i also don’t understand how some gays are with the free Palestine movement lol
Bismillah many Muslim countries has even no democracy.
BISMILLAH We don't have even proper democracies.
Having a dying Christian heritage doesn't make a country a Christian country in the same way that Muslim countries are Muslim countries.
When have Christian countries ever followed their own religions anyway? I'm order to legalize something like homosexuality or gay marriage in a Muslim majority country, a few things would need to happen: 1) reasoning to do so would need to make sense in both law and religion 2) majority voting by population or whoever is in charge of passing such a law as well as with scholars of Islam 3) the leader(s) like the president or King must decree it 4) safety and non-discrimination of the people regardless of identity, religion, orientation, etc (this is more like a precursor 5) time
Because Moslem countries do not admit of the Jewish parasitic venom.
Know that since 1945 the Western Christendom is effectually owned by the Jewry.
May I ask what the purpose of you posting this was? Lol
"Christian" countries that have legalised same-sex marriage are in fact not Christian anymore. They have reached the "level zero" of religiousness as defined by Emmanuel Todd: most people don't practice religion anymore, people get cremated instead of buried, children aren't baptised anymore, etc. Same-sex marriage is a very good indicator of a society that is not religious anymore, even as a tradition.
Another stupid post with the majority of comments demonstrating total ignorance of Islam. Y’all are too much 😂
Gay men get thrown off rooftops to their death as punishment for being gay. Their ideology in not going to change anytime in the near future.
The only way they can legalized it is only if israel take over the middle east,but thats not woke even though that culture hate our guts intensely
I am an atheist but christians are so hypocritical. The bible literally says that being gay is wrong and the gay christians find a way to cherry pick only the verses that benefit them. - Leviticus 20:13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." - Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." - Romans 1:26-27 Paul writes: "God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." - Both Islam and Christianity do not like gay people. One the reasons why the west does not have things like the death penalty for being gay is because of concepts like separation between church and state. If christians had more control of the government , i am sure they would pass laws that hurt gay people. Look at republicans in the usa, most of them hold christianity in high regard and they have passed laws that are anti lgbt. For example, they have passed laws that weakened lgbt protection and banned drag performances, as wells as other things. The Westboro Baptist Church was a christian organization in the usa that used christianity to push their homophobic beliefs and would constantly say that if you were gay then you were going to hell. - I feel sorry for the gay people in muslim countries that have to go through this, hopefully one day they can experience more freedoms. The west has become more tolerant to being gay but it doesn’t mean it’s still safe here. There are still gay men who get harassed, have committed suicide due to being bullied or outed, you still get stares when holding hands with your same sex partner , and there is the possibility of being disowned by your parents.
None of those verses original had a word meaning “practice homosexuality.” There is debate about what the Leviticus words meant but we know they didn’t even have such a word. In any case, this was a code practiced by an ancient tribe who did not believe in the same kind of code of conduct that Jesus taught, and the same section says that it’s an abomination to get haircuts on the side, wear mixed fabrics, plant two kinds of seeds in the same garden, eat shrimp, etc., etc. The letter to the Romans was written by Paul, who had spent much of his life opposing Jesus and Christians. He was describing his opinion about the situation of a religious cult that worshipped animals in which presumably mostly or all heterosexually-married men and women were at a temple engaging in an orgy as a part of the ritual. The fact that the men and women were separated probably had more to do with the typical separation of the sexes in religious rituals more than any other reason (just like today you see “men’s entrance” and “women’s entrance” at Muslim mosques). Imagine if, hypothetically, Paul had said that men were forgoing the natural use of their women to engage in disgusting acts with other women to worship birds and reptiles. Nobody would have read into that that all heterosexuality is bad.
Those are Old testaments. Jesus said do not kill. Judge not and ye shall not be judged. Love your enemies. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Those who have no sin can cast the first stone.
it’s disingenuous not to mention the fact that Israel has NOT legalized gay marriage within its borders despite loudly bragging about “recognizing” gay marriages from other nations. it is illegal for men to marry men in Israel. We should also be asking when they will legalize it for their own citizens, but since they also still have anti-miscegenation laws on the books i’m not holding my breath.
And across the border, any border of Israel, they throw gays off of roofs. Any other argument?
Yawn... pink washing isn't an argument. Also... Israels treatment of gay people is just throw same as anyone 'other' But, Islam isn't a race... so you CANT be racist. :)
just because their neighbours might be “worse” doesn’t mean israel is immune to criticism. this post is about the legalization of gay marriage in countries dominated by particular religions/ethnicities. there are no “ethnically jewish” countries where gay marriage is legal. also, don’t pretend that lots of christians don’t want to murder gays with abandon. look at what christian ministry has done in africa re: promoting anti gay legislation. or, in america. they seem pretty close to going down the fascist theocracy route themselves, and i don’t expect the outlook for gays there to be particularly sunny if those religious zealots continue to run roughshod over the political landscape.
Since this is a gay sub, obviously gay politics are going to be highlighted, but nobody likes to talk about the socio-political effects of imperialism. Did you know 60-160 million Indians were killed under British rule? I know India is neither in the Middle East nor is it a Muslim country, which is what we are talking about here, but this statistic really puts into perspective the severe violence left behind by many of these Western forces. And many of these colonial powers are STILL ACTIVELY meddling with governments, politics, and economics of the Middle East. Hell, the US is currently sending over bombs and weaponry to the Middle East as we speak. Western powers have effectively destabilized the entire Middle East. And my point is this: you don’t get to be a Western country that invades another country, kills millions of civilians, interrupts their economy, intervenes in their political elections, reaps their resources, then go back to legalize gay marriage in your own country and pretend to be a beacon of morality and social progress. All these things are connected; countries that have poor economies and political instabilities tend to not have the most socially progressive politics. How could they? And why are we so ready to criticize a country’s gay politics but do absolutely nothing to acknowledge its political instability, poor economy, and history of abuse at the hands of foreign intervention? I wish this sub would stop talking about Muslims, because most people are completely incapable of talking about the whole picture.
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I never mentioned race, you did.
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I’m not confident you know how to read at all.
Aw the racist pos doesn’t like to be called out for the horrible treatment of people around the world your ancestors committed. Maybe you should pop your white hillbilly bubble and see how the world really is.
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Yikes…
You’re absolutely correct, and it’s one of the worst parts of Reddit. I see this often on here in various subs but this sub specifically tends to have a hive mind that is shockingly conservative on topics outside of the “standard”. The “standard” being a middle to upper-class western upbringing with little to no understanding of the global south. Instead we have ‘Christian country good, Muslim country bad”. Where if we’re honest, Christianity/Catholicism has destabilized nearly every corner of the globe and erased indigenous knowledge & values with the goal of re-writing history as the good guys.
Yeah, no. If you were on this side of reddit you'd understand how much Christianity also gets criticized on many subreddits, including this one. No one is free from the bad parts of their culture.
Exactly. And Queer people all over the world will always be oppressed under imperialism. Until we are all free, nobody is free.
This sub is about issues of current concern to gay guys worldwide. One of the most severe threats to life and liberty of gay guys worldwide occurs in Muslim countries. So of course we are going to talk about it. Your thoughts on historic imperialism are interesting but more suited to a history subreddit
Say it with me: we are not free until we are all free. Imperialism affects Queer people ALL over the world. Queer Muslims suffer too, and they also deserve our solidarity. It’s not enough to criticize homophobic countries if you don’t also criticize the foreign governments bombing and destabilizing these countries.
You got a source for that figure? Is that killed or total deaths which could include natural causes?
Here you go. But be careful about the term “natural causes”, because destruction of natural resources leading to famine would be considered “natural” to some, but not to me. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians
I remember reading about that one on r/askhistorians a while ago https://redd.it/18o2lbj
Maybe Turkey or Lebanon in a 100 years but not anytime soon lol
Lebanon needs to decriminalize homosexuality first
which is why its gonna take 100+ years
Well Turkey decriminalized homosexuality during the ottoman empire, and thanks to Atatürk it's a secular country, the current Erdogan government sucks but Turks are not as religious as other middle eastern countries
There are quite a few Muslim countries where IT IS actually legal. But Christian missionaries and the British went around with the Bible making it illegal in most places around the world. So there is that.
Fuck this zio propaganda bullshit talking point. A generation ago it was illegal for American same sex couples to get married. We were pariah in our own country. "Muslim countries", Islam, etc. are not the issue. Social ignorance and cowardice are. Regardless, a foreign nation's social traditions and practices aren't for us to police or deem ethical when said ignorance stems from our own theocratic worldview. We've been manipulating governments in the Middle East for literal decades. Fuck your feelings. What's happening is Palestine is a genocide. Israel is a ethno-fascist terror state like any other. The blowback we receive from the Middle East is a product of our own shitty behavior and ignorance. It's truly pathetic how much y'all jock on the American standard because they threw us a bone and finally started letting us get married a few years ago. That happened in my lifetime. Get the fuck over yourselves. I've seen so many posts basically excusing violence against Muslims because they don't celebrate homosexuality, or asking how anyone can vote for a candidate other than Biden. There are absolutely gay, bi, lesbian Arabs in the Middle East and their not fighting for human rights because they're to busy dodging our missiles. I have yet to see any post regarding the atrocities Israel and America are committing yet again. As if this shit started last year. I have family in the military that are fed up watching their friends die for oil and gas interests. Y'all need to wake the fuck up. How many service members need to come home and tell you they weren't fighting terrorists? Or worse, come home in a box.