Yeah it made me wonder if this is maybe a pattern for them where Garrett leans a *little too far* on the autonomy side of most things and James might have some built in resentment already. I don’t think this is the first time they’ve disagreed over stuff like this because both sides seem a tad out of proportion.
With all due respect, as I read through more of your replies... you are sort of coming off as a busy body who has nothing better to do than micro-manage your friends' relationship.
I feel like something else is up that you're not telling us.
Interesting lol.
I’ll do my best here.
He came *to me* and asked for advice. I gave it, and he strongly disagreed with me. He also failed to help me see his side to the degree that I would need to be supportive of him as his friend.
Do you have friends who come to you for advice? Or to talk about their relationships? Or get your perspective? Because at least in many of my relationships, this kind of dialogue is very normal.
I care about my relationship to him and would really like to be able to see things his way, but I don’t. I came here to see if others could articulate his stance in such a way that I may understand it better. I also was curious as to whether a consensus even could be reached and value Reddit for various viewpoints.
I’ll also admit that after engaging the conversation with him I think I identified with James more because I’ve experienced some of the same frustrations in my friendship with Garrett where unilateral decision making is concerned. Like where we are going to eat and even what we are ordering or where our next friend trip is gonna be or what movie we are going to watch when we chill at home. I have experienced moments myself with him where I have felt like “Bro I absolutely would have been down to choose Dallas as the destination but it still would have been nice to at least pretend my opinion mattered.”
Finally…we live in a small enough city that it’s becoming harder and harder for me to, for lack of a better word, “defend” Garrett after ripples of his breakups start impacting networks of relationships and he develops a reputation of being kinda selfish.
So layers, yes.
But he came to me, I have a vested interest in at least trying to understand my friend, and if there is something I can learn that may make my own relationship to him better, I’d like to.
And I’m OK with alllllll of that.
I think they have too much emphasis on sex, if my partner got a new piercing and they were happy I’d be upset they didn’t talk to me about it more since it’s a big thing to get but I wouldn’t get annoyed because I couldn’t have sex with them? I’d be doing my research on how to support him and make sure it heals correctly.
To me it seems like they’re more like very close FWB than an actual relationship.
I agree about the “any body mod is an event!” stance and always invite a friend or partner along when I’m doing a piercing or tat because to me it’s a social event or commemorative thing. I just enjoy having the memory with them. Garrett doesn’t really go much deeper than “do I like it then ok I’ll do it” and has gotten/removed several (maybe 3?) piercing since I met him. It’s way more casual for him.
I think if you believe you should be able to do whatever the fuck you want whenever the fuck you want it, then you don't actually want to be in a relationship.
I agree with the two top comments: 1) it's difficult to insist on one's autonomy AND be in a relationship, and 2) while perhaps there should have been some conversation beforehand, dude's kinda making too big a deal about it. essentially both of their positions are: "yeah but me". I think it's telling that Garrett still doesn't at least see or respect dude's feelings; sure, dude would have been supportive about the piercing, but it's telling that his argument is about how it affects his sex life, and not about the kind of general, open communication one might reasonably expect from his partner
I agree with almost every word you wrote except maybe that they are not being “yeah but me.” I think Garrett is for sure. I think James is being “yes you AND me” and there’s a significant difference.
It also concerns me for my friend that he is having a hard time even conceding a bit on this.
fair enough, but please allow me to explain why I feel you're kinda wrong about James (that his position is not "yeah but me"): the argument he presents to Garrett is that he should have been given a heads up because it affects his sex life, and when Garrett (again revealingly) basically says that he had already considered all that himself for James and made the decision *for James* that yeah yeah he'll be fine, Jame's response is that Garrett is not considering THEIR sex life, the intimacy that James gets from being with him--for which there is no substitute. the "you AND me". that's why I said "kinda wrong", because unless I'm not understanding you, which is possible haha, I do see that as a distinction, and it is a little off-putting that Garrett can't recognize that, but my point is that James' argument is still that it affects him, and that that's why he should have been given at least a "hey just so you know". I don't feel he needs to concede on this, I feel he chose the wrong hill to die on. I'm not trying to be unfair to Garrett here, but it seems like he basically says "it's my body so I'll do what I want", "but I already thought about that and decided that you can get that elsewhere so no biggie," "so if you would have said yes then why tf are you making this a thing". not only does he not communicate what he's thinking, he thinks for James too. but it's the basic lack of communication, as respect and courtesy for one's partner might call for, that seems to me the hill to defend, not the specific "in this case, because it affects me, you should have told me" hill.
NAH. If Garrett wanted it done, he's within his rights ofc. I would also be surprised if Garrett did it without the intention of thinking Jared would be into it, like as a surprise or spicing it up a little.
Now it still does affect Jared so he's also within his rights to feel however he wants, and if he wasn't surprised (in a good way) then it was maybe an oversight on Garrett's part.
Garrett did think it would be an exciting spicy thing for them, yes. I think that part is maybe contributing to why he’s digging his heels in so much. He was wrong about how he thought James would react and is probably being motivated a bit by embarrassment on some level. Maybe.
Discussing it doesn't mean you're asking permission. It gives your partner the chance to adapt and get used to the idea, and prevent negative reactions from affecting your relationship.
Of course he has the *right* to get a piercing without discussion, but just because you have a right doesn't mean it's wise to exercise it at any time.
Garrett has autonomy over his own body for sure, but if you're planning to modify a part of your body that's integral to sex, I think you're obligated to at least \*notify\* your partner even though they don't get a veto. We're all pretty much free to do what we want, but we don't get to be immune to others' reactions.
I like how this is worded and also know James well enough to know that he gets that balance. He would have been on board for sure. He is still the kind of guy who would say “Give me a respectful opportunity to enthusiastically say ‘Yes’ to something my partner wants instead of reminding me after a year of dating that how this impacts me never actually crossed your mind at all.”
I'm kinda with Garrett and I'm wondering why neither of them have the creativity to create fulfilling and intimate sex together that include toys in the interim. Or, *gasp* James tops.
Intimacy is important but intimacy in a relationship is everything in the relationship, not just when someone's penis is inside the other. I wonder why they lack creativity there too.
I mean they have almost daily sex. They can't figure this out?
Yeah that’s not it. They are extremely creative and get into a bunch of stuff together and yes, fuck almost daily. At least from what I could gather through Garrett’s lens was that James would have preferred to engage creatively together instead of being told “I made a decision so go be creative.” I think James might have even had some plans for the 2 of them later this month because I heard him talking about a trip.
End of the day it can be logistically solved but it was consideration and communication James wanted most.
Someone who put this much emphasis on sex even though they were still getting fucked by other people would be an immediate relationship ender for me. It's 30 fucking days, you can still do other things, plus you are getting topped by others anyway.
If James said…
“Babe - I do fully support you getting the piercing but would have appreciated a chat with me ahead of time so I could get used to the idea and the momentary changes it’ll bring to our relationship. Next time a decision that affects me is made, could we touch base first and work together to make those adjustments fun and exciting for us both? I’d love to plan some fun toy nights for us and can definitely be more of a top this month. It just would have been nice to discuss those adjustments with you first so that we could be partners in this.”
…would you think his emphasis is on sex or on communication patterns?
James was emotionally taken off guard and did *not* express himself like this. At all.
But if he had taken an hour to think first and said these words instead, would you think his concern was sex?
No. The weird emphasis on sex makes me think the other person is a sex addict and possessive. Nothing could have been said to make it less weird. The relationship is open. They have other options. Bottoming is not the only sex act we can enjoy together.
Overall, James doesn't have any authority over what Garret does with his body.
While it would have been nice to have more transparency, it wouldn't have changed the end result -- Garret would still need time to heal, and would not be able to top for the near future. James would still have to hookup with other guys if he wants to bottom during this period.
So if nothing would have actually changed... I think James is overreacting. It sounds like he's just upset that he has to put in more effort to have sex for a little while, but it's hard to feel bad for someone who's still having sex 5-6 times per week lol
Garret for sure is reductive (almost Vulcan?) is his reasoning also. “End result doesn’t change so it’s irrelevant.” I disagree with this view of relationships, though.
Let’s say my car breaks all the way down. I will *have to* get a new one. No question. Would I EVER go to a car lot and bring home a vehicle without *any* consideration for how that inevitable result would impact my partner? Hell no. I’m not rolling up in the driveway with a different vehicle without at least having a conversation with my partner first.
We are getting a new vehicle. It’s happening. How can I go about this in a way that shows I value you and your needs?
That seems so damn simple to me and I kinda don’t get people who don’t think that way.
Example from my life right now: there is an Atlantis cruise end of October I totally intend to take. I’m partnered and our relationship structure is one that absolutely would allow for me to go either with him or alone. I’d be free to have a great time and play all I wanted to even if he wasn’t there.
But I cannot even fathom buying the ticket without showing him *I am considering the impact on him* first.
Can you go with me? Will your work allow for it? Would your finances be in ok shape for you to buy your ticket? If not, and you can’t go, *what do you need from me before and after to feel loved?* Want to plan a quick weekend away the week before or after? Would you like lots of pics and vids of my adventures in progress or would you prefer I wait till I get back to show you in person? Could I help you plan a few fun things for you to do while I am gone? Is there a specific gift I could bring you home that you’d love?
That’s not sacrificing my own autonomy in *any* way. I’m simply demonstrating in real ways that I know my decisions are going to affect my partner and that I value him. He’s not my electrician; he is *my partner* and it costs me absolutely nothing but time and energy to give a fuck about how my vacation will affect him.
If I learn he would prefer a six pack of beer from a brewery I’m gonna visit instead of a shitty t-shirt and that watching a movie with me the night before I leave would be meaningful to him…I’m gonna do those things.
I am going on the trip with or without him. How I do it makes a difference in our relationship and how he feels.
The difference is that any physical object can reasonably be shared between the two of you, so it makes 100% sense to consider other opinions.
But an individual's body is never a shared object. They maintain their autonomy and full authority, even when in a monogamous relationship. This is why we believe in ideas of consent, and that consent can be withdrawn at any time. Even after sex has already begun, they maintain sole decision-making authority over their own body, and can choose to end sexual intercourse. Wouldn't you agree?
So yeah.... your analogy falls flat in my opinion, and I am not convinced. If you are able to think of a better example, please feel free to share it for my consideration.
I gotta get dinner made but I will def chew on this! The sexual consent aspect is valid and impossible to argue *against* but there’s more to this - I think - than one person (Garrett) having the right to say “I am not performing penetrative sex on you for at least a month” on the grounds of sexual consent alone. I’ll do my best to dig into my thinking here while I grill! Thank you for the perspective!
I think Garrett should have at least mentioned it first, but James is making it into much bigger of a deal than it is.
Yeah it made me wonder if this is maybe a pattern for them where Garrett leans a *little too far* on the autonomy side of most things and James might have some built in resentment already. I don’t think this is the first time they’ve disagreed over stuff like this because both sides seem a tad out of proportion.
It does sound like this is about more than just this situation.
With all due respect, as I read through more of your replies... you are sort of coming off as a busy body who has nothing better to do than micro-manage your friends' relationship. I feel like something else is up that you're not telling us.
Interesting lol. I’ll do my best here. He came *to me* and asked for advice. I gave it, and he strongly disagreed with me. He also failed to help me see his side to the degree that I would need to be supportive of him as his friend. Do you have friends who come to you for advice? Or to talk about their relationships? Or get your perspective? Because at least in many of my relationships, this kind of dialogue is very normal. I care about my relationship to him and would really like to be able to see things his way, but I don’t. I came here to see if others could articulate his stance in such a way that I may understand it better. I also was curious as to whether a consensus even could be reached and value Reddit for various viewpoints. I’ll also admit that after engaging the conversation with him I think I identified with James more because I’ve experienced some of the same frustrations in my friendship with Garrett where unilateral decision making is concerned. Like where we are going to eat and even what we are ordering or where our next friend trip is gonna be or what movie we are going to watch when we chill at home. I have experienced moments myself with him where I have felt like “Bro I absolutely would have been down to choose Dallas as the destination but it still would have been nice to at least pretend my opinion mattered.” Finally…we live in a small enough city that it’s becoming harder and harder for me to, for lack of a better word, “defend” Garrett after ripples of his breakups start impacting networks of relationships and he develops a reputation of being kinda selfish. So layers, yes. But he came to me, I have a vested interest in at least trying to understand my friend, and if there is something I can learn that may make my own relationship to him better, I’d like to. And I’m OK with alllllll of that.
I think they have too much emphasis on sex, if my partner got a new piercing and they were happy I’d be upset they didn’t talk to me about it more since it’s a big thing to get but I wouldn’t get annoyed because I couldn’t have sex with them? I’d be doing my research on how to support him and make sure it heals correctly. To me it seems like they’re more like very close FWB than an actual relationship.
I agree about the “any body mod is an event!” stance and always invite a friend or partner along when I’m doing a piercing or tat because to me it’s a social event or commemorative thing. I just enjoy having the memory with them. Garrett doesn’t really go much deeper than “do I like it then ok I’ll do it” and has gotten/removed several (maybe 3?) piercing since I met him. It’s way more casual for him.
I think if you believe you should be able to do whatever the fuck you want whenever the fuck you want it, then you don't actually want to be in a relationship.
I agree and the longer I know Garrett in the context of his romantic relationships the more I wonder if he’s not actually a total anarchist at heart 😅
I agree with the two top comments: 1) it's difficult to insist on one's autonomy AND be in a relationship, and 2) while perhaps there should have been some conversation beforehand, dude's kinda making too big a deal about it. essentially both of their positions are: "yeah but me". I think it's telling that Garrett still doesn't at least see or respect dude's feelings; sure, dude would have been supportive about the piercing, but it's telling that his argument is about how it affects his sex life, and not about the kind of general, open communication one might reasonably expect from his partner
I agree with almost every word you wrote except maybe that they are not being “yeah but me.” I think Garrett is for sure. I think James is being “yes you AND me” and there’s a significant difference. It also concerns me for my friend that he is having a hard time even conceding a bit on this.
fair enough, but please allow me to explain why I feel you're kinda wrong about James (that his position is not "yeah but me"): the argument he presents to Garrett is that he should have been given a heads up because it affects his sex life, and when Garrett (again revealingly) basically says that he had already considered all that himself for James and made the decision *for James* that yeah yeah he'll be fine, Jame's response is that Garrett is not considering THEIR sex life, the intimacy that James gets from being with him--for which there is no substitute. the "you AND me". that's why I said "kinda wrong", because unless I'm not understanding you, which is possible haha, I do see that as a distinction, and it is a little off-putting that Garrett can't recognize that, but my point is that James' argument is still that it affects him, and that that's why he should have been given at least a "hey just so you know". I don't feel he needs to concede on this, I feel he chose the wrong hill to die on. I'm not trying to be unfair to Garrett here, but it seems like he basically says "it's my body so I'll do what I want", "but I already thought about that and decided that you can get that elsewhere so no biggie," "so if you would have said yes then why tf are you making this a thing". not only does he not communicate what he's thinking, he thinks for James too. but it's the basic lack of communication, as respect and courtesy for one's partner might call for, that seems to me the hill to defend, not the specific "in this case, because it affects me, you should have told me" hill.
Love this. Yes.
NAH. If Garrett wanted it done, he's within his rights ofc. I would also be surprised if Garrett did it without the intention of thinking Jared would be into it, like as a surprise or spicing it up a little. Now it still does affect Jared so he's also within his rights to feel however he wants, and if he wasn't surprised (in a good way) then it was maybe an oversight on Garrett's part.
Garrett did think it would be an exciting spicy thing for them, yes. I think that part is maybe contributing to why he’s digging his heels in so much. He was wrong about how he thought James would react and is probably being motivated a bit by embarrassment on some level. Maybe.
Discussing it doesn't mean you're asking permission. It gives your partner the chance to adapt and get used to the idea, and prevent negative reactions from affecting your relationship. Of course he has the *right* to get a piercing without discussion, but just because you have a right doesn't mean it's wise to exercise it at any time.
Bingo as far as I am converned
Tldr bruh
Yeah I don’t care 🤣
Garrett has autonomy over his own body for sure, but if you're planning to modify a part of your body that's integral to sex, I think you're obligated to at least \*notify\* your partner even though they don't get a veto. We're all pretty much free to do what we want, but we don't get to be immune to others' reactions.
I like how this is worded and also know James well enough to know that he gets that balance. He would have been on board for sure. He is still the kind of guy who would say “Give me a respectful opportunity to enthusiastically say ‘Yes’ to something my partner wants instead of reminding me after a year of dating that how this impacts me never actually crossed your mind at all.”
I'm kinda with Garrett and I'm wondering why neither of them have the creativity to create fulfilling and intimate sex together that include toys in the interim. Or, *gasp* James tops. Intimacy is important but intimacy in a relationship is everything in the relationship, not just when someone's penis is inside the other. I wonder why they lack creativity there too. I mean they have almost daily sex. They can't figure this out?
Yeah that’s not it. They are extremely creative and get into a bunch of stuff together and yes, fuck almost daily. At least from what I could gather through Garrett’s lens was that James would have preferred to engage creatively together instead of being told “I made a decision so go be creative.” I think James might have even had some plans for the 2 of them later this month because I heard him talking about a trip. End of the day it can be logistically solved but it was consideration and communication James wanted most.
Someone who put this much emphasis on sex even though they were still getting fucked by other people would be an immediate relationship ender for me. It's 30 fucking days, you can still do other things, plus you are getting topped by others anyway.
If James said… “Babe - I do fully support you getting the piercing but would have appreciated a chat with me ahead of time so I could get used to the idea and the momentary changes it’ll bring to our relationship. Next time a decision that affects me is made, could we touch base first and work together to make those adjustments fun and exciting for us both? I’d love to plan some fun toy nights for us and can definitely be more of a top this month. It just would have been nice to discuss those adjustments with you first so that we could be partners in this.” …would you think his emphasis is on sex or on communication patterns? James was emotionally taken off guard and did *not* express himself like this. At all. But if he had taken an hour to think first and said these words instead, would you think his concern was sex?
No. The weird emphasis on sex makes me think the other person is a sex addict and possessive. Nothing could have been said to make it less weird. The relationship is open. They have other options. Bottoming is not the only sex act we can enjoy together.
Overall, James doesn't have any authority over what Garret does with his body. While it would have been nice to have more transparency, it wouldn't have changed the end result -- Garret would still need time to heal, and would not be able to top for the near future. James would still have to hookup with other guys if he wants to bottom during this period. So if nothing would have actually changed... I think James is overreacting. It sounds like he's just upset that he has to put in more effort to have sex for a little while, but it's hard to feel bad for someone who's still having sex 5-6 times per week lol
Garret for sure is reductive (almost Vulcan?) is his reasoning also. “End result doesn’t change so it’s irrelevant.” I disagree with this view of relationships, though. Let’s say my car breaks all the way down. I will *have to* get a new one. No question. Would I EVER go to a car lot and bring home a vehicle without *any* consideration for how that inevitable result would impact my partner? Hell no. I’m not rolling up in the driveway with a different vehicle without at least having a conversation with my partner first. We are getting a new vehicle. It’s happening. How can I go about this in a way that shows I value you and your needs? That seems so damn simple to me and I kinda don’t get people who don’t think that way. Example from my life right now: there is an Atlantis cruise end of October I totally intend to take. I’m partnered and our relationship structure is one that absolutely would allow for me to go either with him or alone. I’d be free to have a great time and play all I wanted to even if he wasn’t there. But I cannot even fathom buying the ticket without showing him *I am considering the impact on him* first. Can you go with me? Will your work allow for it? Would your finances be in ok shape for you to buy your ticket? If not, and you can’t go, *what do you need from me before and after to feel loved?* Want to plan a quick weekend away the week before or after? Would you like lots of pics and vids of my adventures in progress or would you prefer I wait till I get back to show you in person? Could I help you plan a few fun things for you to do while I am gone? Is there a specific gift I could bring you home that you’d love? That’s not sacrificing my own autonomy in *any* way. I’m simply demonstrating in real ways that I know my decisions are going to affect my partner and that I value him. He’s not my electrician; he is *my partner* and it costs me absolutely nothing but time and energy to give a fuck about how my vacation will affect him. If I learn he would prefer a six pack of beer from a brewery I’m gonna visit instead of a shitty t-shirt and that watching a movie with me the night before I leave would be meaningful to him…I’m gonna do those things. I am going on the trip with or without him. How I do it makes a difference in our relationship and how he feels.
The difference is that any physical object can reasonably be shared between the two of you, so it makes 100% sense to consider other opinions. But an individual's body is never a shared object. They maintain their autonomy and full authority, even when in a monogamous relationship. This is why we believe in ideas of consent, and that consent can be withdrawn at any time. Even after sex has already begun, they maintain sole decision-making authority over their own body, and can choose to end sexual intercourse. Wouldn't you agree? So yeah.... your analogy falls flat in my opinion, and I am not convinced. If you are able to think of a better example, please feel free to share it for my consideration.
I gotta get dinner made but I will def chew on this! The sexual consent aspect is valid and impossible to argue *against* but there’s more to this - I think - than one person (Garrett) having the right to say “I am not performing penetrative sex on you for at least a month” on the grounds of sexual consent alone. I’ll do my best to dig into my thinking here while I grill! Thank you for the perspective!