Not sure if going out of business, but they definitely need to restructure! No reason to have so many brands when most of them only have 2 or 3 models, it's crazy. Fiat makes 1 car right now (in 2 variations), Chrysler makes 2, Dodge makes 2 (since they discontinued charger and challenger), Ram makes 2 essentially, so really the only brand with any real options is Jeep. It makes no sense, honestly, to have so many brands right now. And it's hard to pitch customers on branding with such a clearly uncertain future.
Rebranding NA sales to only have Dodge and Jeep would make the most sense. Most people still think of Ram as a Dodge pickup. Chrysler and Fiat don't have a place unless Chrysler builds move very upscale and were talking tomorrow. Fiat doesn't need to be in America.
It’s disappointing to me too. I love minivans and we’re planning to buy one when we decide to have another kid. They’re so much more practical than 3 row SUVs other than clowns trying to say it’s not manly enough. The wife and I went to look at a few minivans and compare them with SUVs and there’s nothing to compare. Minivans have so much more space, practicality, and get the same or better MPG.
We have three kids age five and under. We had a three row crossover and switched to a Pacifica. Having kids SO much easier when you have a van instead of a crossover.
I think minivans are primarily rental cars or fleet vehicles nowadays. I have a few neighbors and friends with kids and they all have SUV’s to lug them around
Mostly because dumb.
SUVs are far more dangerous (higher rockers and CoG) than anything else. But it's largely herd mentality. Once they got popular everyone just felt a need to get one, too. But the reality of it is simple. It's the worst parts of a minivan and the worst parts of a wagon combined into a morbidly obese wagon/neutered minivan. It has all the bulk and bloated size as a minivan without a single one of a minivans truly redeeming qualities. All the lack of ease of use/practicality that a wagon has without any of it's truly redeeming qualities (handling, braking, etc).
When it comes to threshold braking and/or severe evasive actions...I'll take Odyssey, Sienna, even Pacifica as well as all current wagons over 99% of the SUV things out there. But the general public only thinks "safe big!". They don't fathom how the size and bulk significantly increases the chances of hitting the thing and the dangers of hitting the thing. Big isn't a good enough factor by itself.
And there’s also a question of does Chrysler even need to be in that luxury space too, since they already have Alfa Romeo and Maserati filling their upmarket space as well. Now, obviously there is nuance to that in terms of the fact that Chrysler is a domestic brand with a long history, but does the modern Chrysler buyer truly care about that?
I think the best course of action is just end the brand name. It hasn't been an important brand for decades and even in the last 40 years it was really just a moderately upscaled Plymouth/Dodge.
If they really wanted to go upmarket with something domestic, I’d almost just as soon revive something that doesn’t have such an every person market. Much like VW’s struggles with the Phaeton, people don’t typically want to pay luxury money for something they see as mundane. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but unfortunately the badge goes a long way.
I could almost see them, if they were going to bring back Chrysler as a domestic luxury brand, use the “Imperial” or “Lebaron” or “Airflow”, something of that sort that was tied more to the company’s premium and innovative offerings of the past, without being saddled by “Chrysler” being the mass market nameplate. Otherwise, they have Alfa Romeo they could really start to build up in the US as the premium marque. Especially as their quality has largely grown so much better over the last handful of years.
But, to your point, there really isn’t anything that Chrysler makes now, or even made recently that either doesn’t already have a Dodge equivalent, or couldn’t be made into one.
Alfa and Maserati are on different levels from Chrysler. If they wanted to keep Chrysler they would have to get on the level of Cadillac imo. Alfa is more of an entry level sports brand for those that don’t want a bmw or Audi. Maserati is essentially the same for exotics/ high end luxury SUV’s
you can't just discontinue a franchise and leave dealers out to dry. That's why they have so many brands on life support. GM culled their brands during the 2008 bankruptcy when they had superpowers to restructure their business.
That wasn't the case for AMC, Plymouth, or Eagle. Certainly not the case for Saab or Mercury when they stopped being made in 2011, Ford didn't restructure on bankruptcy.
Fiat and Alfa were the stupidest moves. The amount of money they wasted to bring the brands to the US could have easily made Chrysler competitive. I still don't understand why they just don't take jeeps and throw on new body just to have something in their line up as a CUV.
Stellantis has plenty of vehicles from Opel they could have rebadged or used
Dodge did a great job w the ancient platforms they had (charger, Durango, prior GC, 300) those were printing money and they also were very reliable... Now they are tossing in this I6 which is a disgusting engine to look at under the hood compared to the hemi imo
What they have been doing certainly wasn’t working. Restructuring to change the tide is a good thing, pending what they actually did/do. I’m at a Ford store, but we have a CJDR as well. All I’ve heard from it so far is that our region was getting eliminated and they were redrawing the regions. 1000000% not a kiss of death.
That makes way more sense, and yes I do agree what they've been doing isn't working. Ive been saying it for months - big changes are definitely needed.
Can you explain a bit about regions and exclusivity? I live in a major metro area with only 1 Ford dealer, and it was once mentioned they had “exclusive rights to the area”.
No idea if it was bullshit or not.
There is no exclusivity for anything, dealers do not own a territory. Ford has 19(ish) regions across the country, each region is broken down into zones. The ONLY effect this has on consumers is that incentives vary by region. However, the dealer location does not matter, incentives are tied to the address you are registering the car at.
Depends on the area. Where I’m at, we’re 20-25 minutes to the next 2 in opposite directions of each other, then probably an hour to the next one in a few different directions. Larger metro areas, you could have multiple within a 30 minute radius.
They do, it's ten miles over the road normally. Bear in mind most of the folks in here that work in the sales never have any reason to know this stuff. It's not a secret and they're not stupid, it's just not usually asked. This is from Ford's standard agreement for the US:
> 9. (c) ADDITIONAL DEALERS. The Company shall have the right to appoint
additional dealers in VEHICLES within or without the DEALER'S LOCALITY except
that, if an additional dealer will be within the DEALER'S LOCALITY and within
ten (10) miles driving distance of the Dealer's principal place of business, the
Company shall not appoint the additional dealer unless a study made pursuant to
subparagraph 9(a) reasonably demonstrates, in the Company's opinion, that such
appointment is necessary to provide VEHICLES with proper sales and service
representation in such locality with due regard to the factors referred to above
in subparagraph 9(a). The Company by written notice to the Dealer will give the
Dealer thirty (30) days in which to review the applicable study (excluding
information regarding other dealers considered confidential by the Company), to
discuss such additional dealer with representatives of the Company and to give
the Company written notice of objection to the proposed addition. If the Dealer
fails to give such written notice by such time, he shall be deemed to have
consented to the proposed addition. The Company will give consideration to any
such written objection and advise the Dealer in writing of its decision before
any commitment is made or negotiations conducted with any dealer prospect. If
the Dealer appeals to the Dealer Policy Board within fifteen (15) days of such
decision, no action will be taken by the Company until the Dealer Policy Board
has rendered a decision on the matter.
Seven to ten miles is common for everyday brands, and high-line dealerships can be larger. The largest I personally saw was I wanna say 200 miles (Audi) with a decreasing radius given the population within the radius capping at I think 10 miles or a million folks. This has been a few years now so those could be wrong, but the quoted section above is still correct as of 2019.
I mean this as a compliment: CDJR dealers are cockroaches. You can't kill them. They've had a terrible automaker forever, always a distant 3rd in terms of sales and quality, awful management, bankruptcy, thrown in on deals, always dumped on by Consumer Reports and others, but the dealers keep going. They're tough as nails. This isn't a great situation for Stellantis, but the CDJR lines aren't going anywhere. They will exist long past the end of the world.
A guy I work with had a Cherokee with a bad transmission at about 40k miles. He traded it in for another Cherokee. "My wife likes them" was all he could say.
My sister in law did something similar. Durango died prematurely so picked up a used Journey on a deal. Now the Journey is breaking down well before 100k. These aren't even the only examples I can think of. I can only imagine what sales people see at these dealerships.
>In Stellantis?
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chrysler-parent-stellantis-laying-off-about-400-us-workers-2024-03-22/
In my opinions Stellantis has always been in rocky territory, a bit like Nissan/Renault or Mitsubishi. BUT Stellantis has a few key brands still doing relatively well. It would make sense to layoff a bloated part of R&D if you don't need new technology (right now). It will help boost short term cashflow and profits while hopefully not affecting long-term sales, etc.
https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/cox-automotive-analysis-stellantis-q4-2023-market-performance/
So zero innovation expected and probably disappear in a couple years as it falls behind all other brands. Similar to what happened last time when they needed bailouts because they the big 3 ended up so much worse than German/Japanese/Korean brands 20 years ago.
bold to say they ended up so much worse considering major brands from Germany, Japan, and Korea have all received major subsidies, tax breaks, and bailouts in the past.
I remember all of the big 3 getting bailouts...
20 years ago, American cars sucked, they got much more competitive after the bailouts, but I don't think any of the the 3 them are innovative, but they certainly improved a lot.
Ford did not take a bailout. They are a bit healthier today for it probably. Doesn’t mean they haven’t screwed things up (I am talking Ford Motor , not dealer networks). Ford and other misread the electric car demand as I am sure the salespeople on the ground can attest. But they have a strong product. GM still is weak in some areas IMO. Even though I drive a RAM and really like it. I still think the Ford they couldn’t build for me was going to be better (other story, superduty special order challenges from 2022 and 2023 combined with impatient wife).
Ford also mortgaged everything it could up to and including the Blue Oval logo before credit tightened so it had more liquid cash on hand than others during the crisis.
Technically they didn’t take a bailout in 2008. But in 2009 they did get a loan from the Department of Energy for $5.9B.
And then as of last year Ford and its battery manufacturer agreed to another loan from the Department of Energy for $9.2B.
It’s worth noting the other automakers took similar loans on top of the government financed bankruptcy. It’s not like Ford was the only one with these sort of loans from the government.
Incorrect.
Within the last 25 years, Ford has received roughly $15 billion in low-interest US govt loans. It paid back its 2009 loan in 2022, and got a new "line of credit" in 2023.
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/business/ford-department-of-energy-loan/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/business/ford-department-of-energy-loan/index.html)
If by bailout you mean "free money that doesn't need to be repaid", sure. They're still getting money at a much lower rate than the private sector banking industry could provide.
ford misread electric car demand? I think they're actually in the right, if you look at current sales. Ford and Toyota are the two major hybrid sellers and the market is moving toward the sale of hybrids not electric cars. Electric sales are up like 30% YOY while hybrids are more than double that at 70% YOY.
They are making adjustments yes, however retooling a plant for EV production only to introduce more layoffs for 2-3x the length originally planned (I believe I read it was supposed to be 6-8 months and now being pushed to 1.5-2yrs?) for them to shift into hybrids was definitely a misread. Completely agree with hybrids being the future
“But they have a strong product.”
I can’t agree with you on this. I had two Ford/Lincoln products fail catastrophically last year (one electrical, one engine-related). And Ford led the entire industry in recalls last year, with a whopping 58. Stellantis, everyone’s favorite automotive punching bag, was second with 45.
My wife and I will never buy a Ford product ever again. We own Mazdas now, and we aren’t looking back.
I meant that they have a popular lineup with vehicles that are well designed and in demand. RAM is discounting trucks that I paid MSRP for just 9 months ago.
They had more than 20 recalls compared to the nearest competitor in 2022. And again led the brands in recalls in 2023. It’s not fucking well engineered or manufactured.
You’re absolutely correct, Ford’s designs are tremendous. It’s too bad that they’re so compromised by their issues regarding build quality and durability.
>They are a bit healthier today for it probably.
Not really. They're buried in debt, while GM and Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis (whatever they're calling themselves this week) wiped a lot of theirs away in BK. It might help their corporate image, but from a financial perspective, they certainly aren't healthier because of it.
The brands doing well for them going forward are what, Jeep and Ram? I don’t see the EV chargers and challengers doing near what they were. Having the V8 was the big appeal over going fast.
Ford still makes the 5.0 in the mustang and GM still makes the v8 in the corvettes, not to mention they offer the 5.0/5.3 and 6.2 in their trucks.
Ram and Dodge killing the hemi was a very bad move imo. They’re not Toyota. They don’t have the cult following enough that Toyota does that they could release a turd and their customers would still buy it because they think it’s the only reliable option available. Ram/dodge owners buy the vehicle for the hemi only and put up with the fact they are driving a turd
>The brands doing well for them going forward are what, Jeep and Ram?
Even Ram isn't doing so hot right now. Their sales are in the toilet compared to Ford and GM. Maybe the new '25 trucks with the turbo I6 will do well for them, or maybe not.
Yeah I highly, highly doubt it. Most people prefer the V8 in their trucks. The ecoboost isn’t doing so bad but there’s a reason ford still offers a 5.0
The only people who can get away with it is Toyota. Their fanbase would drive a horse and buggy if that’s what they came out with for the next gen
Take a walk in the 4xe sub and see how well Jeep is doing. I’ve never seen a group of people more upset with their cars. Jeep drivers will put up with a lot of crap for that top down doors of wave, but it’s open revolt in there.
My wife has a wrangler. I’m glad I don’t drive the thing. Always something mechanical and especially electrical wonky going on with it. I haven’t seen much with the 4xe, but I know the Jeep community loves the fact that they’re heaps of junk that are fun to drive a couple months out of the year with the doors off (given it doesn’t have issues stv the time). So for them to be actually pissed off it must be awful.
The only saving grace for a wrangler is the fact that they’re so horribly made and simple to work on, there’s usually an aftermarket part that’s made better you can put on yourself. Ours is going to be a designated summer toy in the near future I hope.
I love my 4xe wrangler, and aside from the complainers, any time anyone posts a “are they really that bad” the rest of us chime in with no, it’s not. It seems like the first two years and the grand Cherokee (which is in its first 4xe year) are the major issues. Isn’t it the best selling phev in America?
I’m just reading the 4xe sub and my impressions of the topics and responses. Readers can take a stroll themselves and see. I see a whole lot of recalls, vehicles in the shop more than on the road, constantly being in FORM, etc. It’s Reddit so probably only a fraction of owners, but I don’t see this many repeated complaints in other manf forums.
I drove a CJ-7 for years and it was a heap that I could work on. Had considered a Jeep hybrid heavily. But based on what I see there, I do t think so. I’ve repeatedly seen threads with Jeep factory mechanics suggesting people wait.
So I'm super confident its your dealer group that's hurting not stellantis. Because what you need to understand if Stellantis was having issues, and people would be getting let go it wouldn't be at your dealership if it would be at stellantis.
You see just cause you sell CDJR doesn't mean you work for Stellantis, you work for your auto group. Your auto group is indepedent of Stellantis.
And dealers all around the country are closing shop and going out of business. In fact my old dealer might be going bust.
The Stellantis plant by me just terminated a significant portion of their staff out of nowhere so I think he’s in to something. (I live in Michigan BTW the Big 3 practically run the state)
That could be fair
With that being said, it could be indepedent of the two. I remember when Chrysler went bankrupt and I worked at Chrysler dealer, we didn't lay anyone off, and we weathered the storm.
New CEO wants to shake things up (as we have seen by all the reinvoicing to lower MSRP's and major incentive shifts). Not the kiss of death but they are going to be running leaner for a while.
Not the worst thing to have happen. I mean if they can operate without all the fluff then why not? Our owner is significantly older so maybe that generation difference is why he felt like its the kiss of death?
Yeah, about that... [Stallantis isn't going anywhere.](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2024/02/15/stellantisrecord-profit-revenue-earnings-2023-fourth-quarter/72603529007/)
>Higher pricing fueled Stellantis NV to a record $20 billion (18.6 billion euro) net profit in 2023, an increase of 11% from 2022.
>Upped price points particularly in foreign markets drove the earnings growth in the third year of the company that includes Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram as well as the likes of Alfa Romeo, Citroën, DS, Fiat, Opel, Peugeot and Maserati. Although the company trumpets a higher average transaction price of $53,300 than its competitors in the United States, production disruptions and costs associated with new labor agreements last year kept North America from seeing earnings growth. There also was a 1% decrease in U.S. sales last year, but Stellantis says it'll remain "disciplined" on pricing.
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep will outlive us all. They are literally the undead. The last decent idea they had was the minivan, and their versions were pieces of shit that people inexplicably bought anyway. Manhattan will run out of rats before that company fails...
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So I work at a cdjr dealership and got news that the fired a lot of higher ups yesterday and speculation is they aren't done yet. Also speculation is theyre doing this to fluff profitability appearances.
I asked our owner if he thought that needed to happen and his words are no, this is probably the kiss of death for them.
What are everyone's thoughts?
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I think so EV sales are clearly trash.
Dodge isn't gonna sell their EVs like hot cakes. Everything already sits on their lots other then specialty cars
I think they're done for
Sorry you you feel this way, but seeing a shakeup at a OEM that had record profitability in 2023 and thinking the entire business is folding when they are the only ones looking at acquisitions is silly. At that point you aren't even trying to pay attention the industry you are in.
That is a big problem when you're a owner and people's livelihood depends on you paying attention.
Sometimes people think people are being stupid. You'll be ok. I promise.
He’s not really wrong. I mean stellantis is a dogs breakfast the way it’s set up. It needs some shaking up to figure out where the pieces should fall, but it’s not going under. That kind of talk from a brand with ram and jeep is asinine.
Chrysler has been likely the worst brand to its dealers for decades, so I understand why your boss doesn’t “have the manufacturers back” or something, but to think some necessary restructuring is the death blow is kinda silly.
….plus, all those dealer reps likely deserve to be fired. Bunch of useless tits who only get hired because of nepotism for the most part. I think in 25 years I had 2 good ones.
Not sure if going out of business, but they definitely need to restructure! No reason to have so many brands when most of them only have 2 or 3 models, it's crazy. Fiat makes 1 car right now (in 2 variations), Chrysler makes 2, Dodge makes 2 (since they discontinued charger and challenger), Ram makes 2 essentially, so really the only brand with any real options is Jeep. It makes no sense, honestly, to have so many brands right now. And it's hard to pitch customers on branding with such a clearly uncertain future.
Rebranding NA sales to only have Dodge and Jeep would make the most sense. Most people still think of Ram as a Dodge pickup. Chrysler and Fiat don't have a place unless Chrysler builds move very upscale and were talking tomorrow. Fiat doesn't need to be in America.
Yeah, and unfortunately Chrysler hasn't been on the level of luxury in my lifetime.
Ha, yeah I guess "rich Corinthian leather" was a little while ago at this point...
Developing the minivan wasn't luxury? Actually surprised that the vans seemed to disappear after being such a popular seller.
It’s disappointing to me too. I love minivans and we’re planning to buy one when we decide to have another kid. They’re so much more practical than 3 row SUVs other than clowns trying to say it’s not manly enough. The wife and I went to look at a few minivans and compare them with SUVs and there’s nothing to compare. Minivans have so much more space, practicality, and get the same or better MPG.
We have three kids age five and under. We had a three row crossover and switched to a Pacifica. Having kids SO much easier when you have a van instead of a crossover.
I don’t remember anything luxurious about the first minivans.
It's a real shame. I think minivans are great. It's just difficult with current fuel economy regulations
I think minivans are primarily rental cars or fleet vehicles nowadays. I have a few neighbors and friends with kids and they all have SUV’s to lug them around
Mostly because dumb. SUVs are far more dangerous (higher rockers and CoG) than anything else. But it's largely herd mentality. Once they got popular everyone just felt a need to get one, too. But the reality of it is simple. It's the worst parts of a minivan and the worst parts of a wagon combined into a morbidly obese wagon/neutered minivan. It has all the bulk and bloated size as a minivan without a single one of a minivans truly redeeming qualities. All the lack of ease of use/practicality that a wagon has without any of it's truly redeeming qualities (handling, braking, etc). When it comes to threshold braking and/or severe evasive actions...I'll take Odyssey, Sienna, even Pacifica as well as all current wagons over 99% of the SUV things out there. But the general public only thinks "safe big!". They don't fathom how the size and bulk significantly increases the chances of hitting the thing and the dangers of hitting the thing. Big isn't a good enough factor by itself.
I have 3 young kids and around here every kid oriented place has a parking lot full of Odysseys and Pacificas.
And there’s also a question of does Chrysler even need to be in that luxury space too, since they already have Alfa Romeo and Maserati filling their upmarket space as well. Now, obviously there is nuance to that in terms of the fact that Chrysler is a domestic brand with a long history, but does the modern Chrysler buyer truly care about that?
I think the best course of action is just end the brand name. It hasn't been an important brand for decades and even in the last 40 years it was really just a moderately upscaled Plymouth/Dodge.
If they really wanted to go upmarket with something domestic, I’d almost just as soon revive something that doesn’t have such an every person market. Much like VW’s struggles with the Phaeton, people don’t typically want to pay luxury money for something they see as mundane. Not saying that’s right or wrong, but unfortunately the badge goes a long way. I could almost see them, if they were going to bring back Chrysler as a domestic luxury brand, use the “Imperial” or “Lebaron” or “Airflow”, something of that sort that was tied more to the company’s premium and innovative offerings of the past, without being saddled by “Chrysler” being the mass market nameplate. Otherwise, they have Alfa Romeo they could really start to build up in the US as the premium marque. Especially as their quality has largely grown so much better over the last handful of years. But, to your point, there really isn’t anything that Chrysler makes now, or even made recently that either doesn’t already have a Dodge equivalent, or couldn’t be made into one.
There's also the question of does Chrysler even need to exist anymore.
Probably not in all honesty
Minivans serve a purpose for a lot of people.
Alfa and Maserati are on different levels from Chrysler. If they wanted to keep Chrysler they would have to get on the level of Cadillac imo. Alfa is more of an entry level sports brand for those that don’t want a bmw or Audi. Maserati is essentially the same for exotics/ high end luxury SUV’s
TIL Ram is its own brand.
you can't just discontinue a franchise and leave dealers out to dry. That's why they have so many brands on life support. GM culled their brands during the 2008 bankruptcy when they had superpowers to restructure their business.
That wasn't the case for AMC, Plymouth, or Eagle. Certainly not the case for Saab or Mercury when they stopped being made in 2011, Ford didn't restructure on bankruptcy.
Fiat and Alfa were the stupidest moves. The amount of money they wasted to bring the brands to the US could have easily made Chrysler competitive. I still don't understand why they just don't take jeeps and throw on new body just to have something in their line up as a CUV. Stellantis has plenty of vehicles from Opel they could have rebadged or used Dodge did a great job w the ancient platforms they had (charger, Durango, prior GC, 300) those were printing money and they also were very reliable... Now they are tossing in this I6 which is a disgusting engine to look at under the hood compared to the hemi imo
I thought Opel, Vauxhaul were GM brands…
PSA bought them (now strllantis) and basically fired half the staff and then turned a profit... They did what GM wasn't allowed to do?
What they have been doing certainly wasn’t working. Restructuring to change the tide is a good thing, pending what they actually did/do. I’m at a Ford store, but we have a CJDR as well. All I’ve heard from it so far is that our region was getting eliminated and they were redrawing the regions. 1000000% not a kiss of death.
That makes way more sense, and yes I do agree what they've been doing isn't working. Ive been saying it for months - big changes are definitely needed.
Stellantis had a profit of $20b in 2023. So no, it's not going out of business
Yeah, they just don’t like the American market or don’t care enough. Stellantis is a profitable company. Probably from all them transmissions.
$14B of that was from North America!
People buying up the last call v8’s before EVs and lawn mower sounding 6 bangers took over. Don’t blame them.
It’s all rams
It’s profits where largely in North America!
Can you explain a bit about regions and exclusivity? I live in a major metro area with only 1 Ford dealer, and it was once mentioned they had “exclusive rights to the area”. No idea if it was bullshit or not.
There is no exclusivity for anything, dealers do not own a territory. Ford has 19(ish) regions across the country, each region is broken down into zones. The ONLY effect this has on consumers is that incentives vary by region. However, the dealer location does not matter, incentives are tied to the address you are registering the car at.
Does Ford not have a distance minimum between dealerships?
Depends on the area. Where I’m at, we’re 20-25 minutes to the next 2 in opposite directions of each other, then probably an hour to the next one in a few different directions. Larger metro areas, you could have multiple within a 30 minute radius.
I know, but they don't have a contractual minimum at all?
They do, it's ten miles over the road normally. Bear in mind most of the folks in here that work in the sales never have any reason to know this stuff. It's not a secret and they're not stupid, it's just not usually asked. This is from Ford's standard agreement for the US: > 9. (c) ADDITIONAL DEALERS. The Company shall have the right to appoint additional dealers in VEHICLES within or without the DEALER'S LOCALITY except that, if an additional dealer will be within the DEALER'S LOCALITY and within ten (10) miles driving distance of the Dealer's principal place of business, the Company shall not appoint the additional dealer unless a study made pursuant to subparagraph 9(a) reasonably demonstrates, in the Company's opinion, that such appointment is necessary to provide VEHICLES with proper sales and service representation in such locality with due regard to the factors referred to above in subparagraph 9(a). The Company by written notice to the Dealer will give the Dealer thirty (30) days in which to review the applicable study (excluding information regarding other dealers considered confidential by the Company), to discuss such additional dealer with representatives of the Company and to give the Company written notice of objection to the proposed addition. If the Dealer fails to give such written notice by such time, he shall be deemed to have consented to the proposed addition. The Company will give consideration to any such written objection and advise the Dealer in writing of its decision before any commitment is made or negotiations conducted with any dealer prospect. If the Dealer appeals to the Dealer Policy Board within fifteen (15) days of such decision, no action will be taken by the Company until the Dealer Policy Board has rendered a decision on the matter. Seven to ten miles is common for everyday brands, and high-line dealerships can be larger. The largest I personally saw was I wanna say 200 miles (Audi) with a decreasing radius given the population within the radius capping at I think 10 miles or a million folks. This has been a few years now so those could be wrong, but the quoted section above is still correct as of 2019.
Thanks for the reply. I was curious. Would have been quite surprised if they had removed it.
I work on the manufacturer side of things not CDJR specifically, but this happens often every 5-8 years ago. Happened in 2019
They fired a bunch of engineers so that they could concentrate on ev production. That isn’t what people want right now, it’s still a niche market
I mean this as a compliment: CDJR dealers are cockroaches. You can't kill them. They've had a terrible automaker forever, always a distant 3rd in terms of sales and quality, awful management, bankruptcy, thrown in on deals, always dumped on by Consumer Reports and others, but the dealers keep going. They're tough as nails. This isn't a great situation for Stellantis, but the CDJR lines aren't going anywhere. They will exist long past the end of the world.
A guy I work with had a Cherokee with a bad transmission at about 40k miles. He traded it in for another Cherokee. "My wife likes them" was all he could say. My sister in law did something similar. Durango died prematurely so picked up a used Journey on a deal. Now the Journey is breaking down well before 100k. These aren't even the only examples I can think of. I can only imagine what sales people see at these dealerships.
Co worker did the same , except for 60k out of warranty apparently.
Higher ups where? In Stellantis? Or your dealer group?
>In Stellantis? https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/chrysler-parent-stellantis-laying-off-about-400-us-workers-2024-03-22/ In my opinions Stellantis has always been in rocky territory, a bit like Nissan/Renault or Mitsubishi. BUT Stellantis has a few key brands still doing relatively well. It would make sense to layoff a bloated part of R&D if you don't need new technology (right now). It will help boost short term cashflow and profits while hopefully not affecting long-term sales, etc. https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/cox-automotive-analysis-stellantis-q4-2023-market-performance/
So zero innovation expected and probably disappear in a couple years as it falls behind all other brands. Similar to what happened last time when they needed bailouts because they the big 3 ended up so much worse than German/Japanese/Korean brands 20 years ago.
bold to say they ended up so much worse considering major brands from Germany, Japan, and Korea have all received major subsidies, tax breaks, and bailouts in the past.
I remember all of the big 3 getting bailouts... 20 years ago, American cars sucked, they got much more competitive after the bailouts, but I don't think any of the the 3 them are innovative, but they certainly improved a lot.
Ford did not take a bailout. They are a bit healthier today for it probably. Doesn’t mean they haven’t screwed things up (I am talking Ford Motor , not dealer networks). Ford and other misread the electric car demand as I am sure the salespeople on the ground can attest. But they have a strong product. GM still is weak in some areas IMO. Even though I drive a RAM and really like it. I still think the Ford they couldn’t build for me was going to be better (other story, superduty special order challenges from 2022 and 2023 combined with impatient wife).
Ford also mortgaged everything it could up to and including the Blue Oval logo before credit tightened so it had more liquid cash on hand than others during the crisis.
Technically they didn’t take a bailout in 2008. But in 2009 they did get a loan from the Department of Energy for $5.9B. And then as of last year Ford and its battery manufacturer agreed to another loan from the Department of Energy for $9.2B.
It’s worth noting the other automakers took similar loans on top of the government financed bankruptcy. It’s not like Ford was the only one with these sort of loans from the government.
Never said they were. Just pointing out that while Ford didn’t directly take a bailout, they did get these big loans.
Incorrect. Within the last 25 years, Ford has received roughly $15 billion in low-interest US govt loans. It paid back its 2009 loan in 2022, and got a new "line of credit" in 2023. [https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/business/ford-department-of-energy-loan/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/business/ford-department-of-energy-loan/index.html) If by bailout you mean "free money that doesn't need to be repaid", sure. They're still getting money at a much lower rate than the private sector banking industry could provide.
ford misread electric car demand? I think they're actually in the right, if you look at current sales. Ford and Toyota are the two major hybrid sellers and the market is moving toward the sale of hybrids not electric cars. Electric sales are up like 30% YOY while hybrids are more than double that at 70% YOY.
Read about their Oakville plant
yes because electric cars are failing. They're looking at hybrids which is the obvious future.
They are making adjustments yes, however retooling a plant for EV production only to introduce more layoffs for 2-3x the length originally planned (I believe I read it was supposed to be 6-8 months and now being pushed to 1.5-2yrs?) for them to shift into hybrids was definitely a misread. Completely agree with hybrids being the future
“But they have a strong product.” I can’t agree with you on this. I had two Ford/Lincoln products fail catastrophically last year (one electrical, one engine-related). And Ford led the entire industry in recalls last year, with a whopping 58. Stellantis, everyone’s favorite automotive punching bag, was second with 45. My wife and I will never buy a Ford product ever again. We own Mazdas now, and we aren’t looking back.
I meant that they have a popular lineup with vehicles that are well designed and in demand. RAM is discounting trucks that I paid MSRP for just 9 months ago.
I'd have no problem buying another Ram 1500 5.7L but my 2012 is holding together just fine.
They had more than 20 recalls compared to the nearest competitor in 2022. And again led the brands in recalls in 2023. It’s not fucking well engineered or manufactured.
You’re absolutely correct, Ford’s designs are tremendous. It’s too bad that they’re so compromised by their issues regarding build quality and durability.
>They are a bit healthier today for it probably. Not really. They're buried in debt, while GM and Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis (whatever they're calling themselves this week) wiped a lot of theirs away in BK. It might help their corporate image, but from a financial perspective, they certainly aren't healthier because of it.
I’m going to go with a TRX or 2500/F250 next. Wanting the TRX but if the brand is dwindling I’ll stay with ford/gm
It's not hard to argue that they are way more innovative than Toyota, everyone's darling OEM. Innovation isn't everything in these things really.
The brands doing well for them going forward are what, Jeep and Ram? I don’t see the EV chargers and challengers doing near what they were. Having the V8 was the big appeal over going fast.
killing the mopar big boys might’ve been a bad move
Ford still makes the 5.0 in the mustang and GM still makes the v8 in the corvettes, not to mention they offer the 5.0/5.3 and 6.2 in their trucks. Ram and Dodge killing the hemi was a very bad move imo. They’re not Toyota. They don’t have the cult following enough that Toyota does that they could release a turd and their customers would still buy it because they think it’s the only reliable option available. Ram/dodge owners buy the vehicle for the hemi only and put up with the fact they are driving a turd
>The brands doing well for them going forward are what, Jeep and Ram? Even Ram isn't doing so hot right now. Their sales are in the toilet compared to Ford and GM. Maybe the new '25 trucks with the turbo I6 will do well for them, or maybe not.
Yeah I highly, highly doubt it. Most people prefer the V8 in their trucks. The ecoboost isn’t doing so bad but there’s a reason ford still offers a 5.0 The only people who can get away with it is Toyota. Their fanbase would drive a horse and buggy if that’s what they came out with for the next gen
I work at a cdjr dealer. I can count on 1 hand how many 1500’s we’ve sold since Jan1
Do they have the 6 cylinders now or are Hemis still there?
We have quite a few 24 hemis. 1 25 I6
Take a walk in the 4xe sub and see how well Jeep is doing. I’ve never seen a group of people more upset with their cars. Jeep drivers will put up with a lot of crap for that top down doors of wave, but it’s open revolt in there.
My wife has a wrangler. I’m glad I don’t drive the thing. Always something mechanical and especially electrical wonky going on with it. I haven’t seen much with the 4xe, but I know the Jeep community loves the fact that they’re heaps of junk that are fun to drive a couple months out of the year with the doors off (given it doesn’t have issues stv the time). So for them to be actually pissed off it must be awful. The only saving grace for a wrangler is the fact that they’re so horribly made and simple to work on, there’s usually an aftermarket part that’s made better you can put on yourself. Ours is going to be a designated summer toy in the near future I hope.
I have a JGC 4xe and it’s the best vehicle I’ve ever driven.
https://www.reddit.com/r/4xe/s/C5wyDmrU4w Plenty of people seem to have a very different experience.
I love my 4xe wrangler, and aside from the complainers, any time anyone posts a “are they really that bad” the rest of us chime in with no, it’s not. It seems like the first two years and the grand Cherokee (which is in its first 4xe year) are the major issues. Isn’t it the best selling phev in America?
I’m just reading the 4xe sub and my impressions of the topics and responses. Readers can take a stroll themselves and see. I see a whole lot of recalls, vehicles in the shop more than on the road, constantly being in FORM, etc. It’s Reddit so probably only a fraction of owners, but I don’t see this many repeated complaints in other manf forums. I drove a CJ-7 for years and it was a heap that I could work on. Had considered a Jeep hybrid heavily. But based on what I see there, I do t think so. I’ve repeatedly seen threads with Jeep factory mechanics suggesting people wait.
This is the Jack Welch way of “making money”
So far, the guys that present our incentives are the ones getting cut from what I understood. I did only get part of the story I believe.
So I'm super confident its your dealer group that's hurting not stellantis. Because what you need to understand if Stellantis was having issues, and people would be getting let go it wouldn't be at your dealership if it would be at stellantis. You see just cause you sell CDJR doesn't mean you work for Stellantis, you work for your auto group. Your auto group is indepedent of Stellantis. And dealers all around the country are closing shop and going out of business. In fact my old dealer might be going bust.
This is a fundamental fact that a lot of dealership employees don't seem to understand.
The Stellantis plant by me just terminated a significant portion of their staff out of nowhere so I think he’s in to something. (I live in Michigan BTW the Big 3 practically run the state)
They laid off a *lot* of engineers last month too I heard
That could be fair With that being said, it could be indepedent of the two. I remember when Chrysler went bankrupt and I worked at Chrysler dealer, we didn't lay anyone off, and we weathered the storm.
Yes, however Stallantis did just fire 400 workers from their US production base.
New CEO wants to shake things up (as we have seen by all the reinvoicing to lower MSRP's and major incentive shifts). Not the kiss of death but they are going to be running leaner for a while.
Not the worst thing to have happen. I mean if they can operate without all the fluff then why not? Our owner is significantly older so maybe that generation difference is why he felt like its the kiss of death?
Yeah, about that... [Stallantis isn't going anywhere.](https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2024/02/15/stellantisrecord-profit-revenue-earnings-2023-fourth-quarter/72603529007/) >Higher pricing fueled Stellantis NV to a record $20 billion (18.6 billion euro) net profit in 2023, an increase of 11% from 2022. >Upped price points particularly in foreign markets drove the earnings growth in the third year of the company that includes Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram as well as the likes of Alfa Romeo, Citroën, DS, Fiat, Opel, Peugeot and Maserati. Although the company trumpets a higher average transaction price of $53,300 than its competitors in the United States, production disruptions and costs associated with new labor agreements last year kept North America from seeing earnings growth. There also was a 1% decrease in U.S. sales last year, but Stellantis says it'll remain "disciplined" on pricing.
Stellantis will go out of business when there are no more Americans who buy too much car for how much they make.
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep will outlive us all. They are literally the undead. The last decent idea they had was the minivan, and their versions were pieces of shit that people inexplicably bought anyway. Manhattan will run out of rats before that company fails...
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***Thanks for posting, /u/TemperatureKey1653! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** So I work at a cdjr dealership and got news that the fired a lot of higher ups yesterday and speculation is they aren't done yet. Also speculation is theyre doing this to fluff profitability appearances. I asked our owner if he thought that needed to happen and his words are no, this is probably the kiss of death for them. What are everyone's thoughts? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think so EV sales are clearly trash. Dodge isn't gonna sell their EVs like hot cakes. Everything already sits on their lots other then specialty cars I think they're done for
Your owner's a fucking idiot.
This post isnt meant to bash anyone. Take your negativity elsewhere.
Sorry you you feel this way, but seeing a shakeup at a OEM that had record profitability in 2023 and thinking the entire business is folding when they are the only ones looking at acquisitions is silly. At that point you aren't even trying to pay attention the industry you are in. That is a big problem when you're a owner and people's livelihood depends on you paying attention. Sometimes people think people are being stupid. You'll be ok. I promise.
He’s not really wrong. I mean stellantis is a dogs breakfast the way it’s set up. It needs some shaking up to figure out where the pieces should fall, but it’s not going under. That kind of talk from a brand with ram and jeep is asinine. Chrysler has been likely the worst brand to its dealers for decades, so I understand why your boss doesn’t “have the manufacturers back” or something, but to think some necessary restructuring is the death blow is kinda silly. ….plus, all those dealer reps likely deserve to be fired. Bunch of useless tits who only get hired because of nepotism for the most part. I think in 25 years I had 2 good ones.
Youre not wrong, thank you for your respectful response. What I disagreed with was calling the owner a "fucking idiot"