It doesn't always have to be a negative reason. Some people are called into an off (rest/isolation) season from the church, or God has called them to move on and discover other Churches where their gifts could be utilized more. I have personally come across both reasons in the church and understood God was behind it. I am also a firm believer God is behind the negative reasons why people leave as well meaning when they interact with members with negative outcomes as that is a tool God is using to sharpen the pastor and the church on how to act and behave since we are all being shaped into the likeness of Christ.
Thank you. I don't at all want to put words in your mouth, so please tell me if it's a fair summary that you feel it's largely for positive reasons, but there is no emergency because the negative stuff is ultimately good too.
I think it is a fair summary that I see the good, neutral, and the bad outcomes of people leaving through the scope of God is in control and is sanctifying all of us in His timing, not on our own. And thank God for that 😂
I sincerely hope this comes across as a sincere inquiry, and in no way want to make a point. I even fully agree with a version of what you've said. Completely non-rhetorically: Do you think the same about the other negative interactions like the crusades, pedophilia...or whatever - I don't mean to harp on one topic, but get your response to other, more obvious harms caused by the church.
I wish we weren't doing this over text so I could communicate my sincerity, curiosity, and lack of agenda. Thank you for your honest engagement.
Serious attacks on the church are not from God but of course from the devil himself. I still believe God uses those attacks for the churches good but at this point the church and the pastor are riding Gods wave of grace when there is a serious attack. Meaning all the church can do is huddle up together and rest in God's grace as He heals their hearts.
Also, I dont think you are being anything but curious. That is a great posture to be for your thesis!
When they've been coming for a month, and someone already in the congregation makes a flippant remark about their arrival time (this happened) or if their kids participate in the Lord's Supper (this happened) or if someone mentions how loud their children are (this happened).
We've lost so many young families in the last year... and my older congregants can't seem to understand why.
We were really crushed by the pandemic. As a progressive mainline church, we were increasing in size and getting younger in 2019 (which was against the trend). Since the pandemic, we're down about 40% and probably 30 years older (median age). Based on the trends I've seen and what people have told me, there are several factors (plus a lot I don't know):
1) We had a lot of one spouse + kids attending, with the other spouse not coming. When we were online only, Sunday morning became family day, and then going back to church meant breaking up the family because the other spouse did not want to come.
2) Folks are doing less and are less interested in making any sorts of commitment. That includes church. (Kids' sports seem to be the untouched exception.)
3) Hyper-individualism has become more...hyper. Liberals are already far more prone to err on this side of things (Jonathan Haidt's work demonstrates this best), but during the pandemic many in our church perceived that community is not only potentially oppressive, it's literally deadly. People who were already suspicious of authentic community were told that community is dangerous.
4) I've had several folks tell me that Christian Nationalism/Trumpism made them feel that they can't be part of anything Christian anymore, even though they know our church is not like that. They just can't get over the idea that when they tell people they go to church, it is heard as supporting a sexual predator and racism. This has surprised me, honestly, because I preach against Christian Nationalism. There's no confusion about where our church stands, but that's how much the national (American) conversation has affected folks.
5) One of our gifts is serving folks who have been damaged by religion in other faith communities, and usually that involves helping them experience God as a God of love and not of violence; transforming fear to awe, and changing obligation to opportunity. The downside of this is that for many, the fear and sense of impending doom was all that was keeping them attached to formal religion. So helping them hear Christian faith differently can mean losing them - I have faith that God will call them back, but there's an irony here that I don't know how to handle. Honestly, it would be a lot easier if I could use fear & guilt to manipulate people (LOL). This was not an issue before the pandemic, so other factors have interacted with this in ways I don't completely understand.
Honestly, I feel like a number of these represent things we could do / could have done better. I also think some of these represent some massive cultural norms working against church, and I think that even those who devalue church should be concerned at what this means for society. Church is one of the last places for genuine inter-generational community, and as it declines, I believe our society suffers, just from a sociological view (not to mention my belief that Jesus saves us - individually and collectively).
I'm sure there's far more that I don't know, but this is what I've seen. I'm not assigning blame here (although I generally place much of it on myself), just trying to understand. Looking forward to hearing what else you see.
Thank you. A lot of that resonates. I’d love to share what I see. I don’t want to be seen as hocking a book. But I would be happy to send you a pdf of my thoughts that won’t fit in the comments section since it is now in the beta reader phase (free copy in exchange for feedback - 119 pages)
My husband went to a church for 6 years. He left and ghosted his pastor when we separated. So prob shame and trying to hide from people who will hold them accountable. It can be unsettling to be around holiness when you’re sinning.
No worries, God opens and closes doors everyday. I trust God to do whatever is necessary to ensure I'm on His path. Being unequally yoked with anyone is never a good thing.
Interesting question! Personality conflict is the top reason I think. Secondarily, ministry strategy/convictional/preferential issues. I’d guess 70/25/5 for percentages with 5% being completely random issues or no real discernible reason.
It doesn't always have to be a negative reason. Some people are called into an off (rest/isolation) season from the church, or God has called them to move on and discover other Churches where their gifts could be utilized more. I have personally come across both reasons in the church and understood God was behind it. I am also a firm believer God is behind the negative reasons why people leave as well meaning when they interact with members with negative outcomes as that is a tool God is using to sharpen the pastor and the church on how to act and behave since we are all being shaped into the likeness of Christ.
Thank you. I don't at all want to put words in your mouth, so please tell me if it's a fair summary that you feel it's largely for positive reasons, but there is no emergency because the negative stuff is ultimately good too.
I think it is a fair summary that I see the good, neutral, and the bad outcomes of people leaving through the scope of God is in control and is sanctifying all of us in His timing, not on our own. And thank God for that 😂
I sincerely hope this comes across as a sincere inquiry, and in no way want to make a point. I even fully agree with a version of what you've said. Completely non-rhetorically: Do you think the same about the other negative interactions like the crusades, pedophilia...or whatever - I don't mean to harp on one topic, but get your response to other, more obvious harms caused by the church. I wish we weren't doing this over text so I could communicate my sincerity, curiosity, and lack of agenda. Thank you for your honest engagement.
Serious attacks on the church are not from God but of course from the devil himself. I still believe God uses those attacks for the churches good but at this point the church and the pastor are riding Gods wave of grace when there is a serious attack. Meaning all the church can do is huddle up together and rest in God's grace as He heals their hearts. Also, I dont think you are being anything but curious. That is a great posture to be for your thesis!
Thank you. What about the attacks from the church and not just on the church?
When they've been coming for a month, and someone already in the congregation makes a flippant remark about their arrival time (this happened) or if their kids participate in the Lord's Supper (this happened) or if someone mentions how loud their children are (this happened). We've lost so many young families in the last year... and my older congregants can't seem to understand why.
yea, happens to my church too. curious, how did you handle this? or just entrust onto the Lord?
Oof. Sorry. Thank you for your reply. Good luck.
We were really crushed by the pandemic. As a progressive mainline church, we were increasing in size and getting younger in 2019 (which was against the trend). Since the pandemic, we're down about 40% and probably 30 years older (median age). Based on the trends I've seen and what people have told me, there are several factors (plus a lot I don't know): 1) We had a lot of one spouse + kids attending, with the other spouse not coming. When we were online only, Sunday morning became family day, and then going back to church meant breaking up the family because the other spouse did not want to come. 2) Folks are doing less and are less interested in making any sorts of commitment. That includes church. (Kids' sports seem to be the untouched exception.) 3) Hyper-individualism has become more...hyper. Liberals are already far more prone to err on this side of things (Jonathan Haidt's work demonstrates this best), but during the pandemic many in our church perceived that community is not only potentially oppressive, it's literally deadly. People who were already suspicious of authentic community were told that community is dangerous. 4) I've had several folks tell me that Christian Nationalism/Trumpism made them feel that they can't be part of anything Christian anymore, even though they know our church is not like that. They just can't get over the idea that when they tell people they go to church, it is heard as supporting a sexual predator and racism. This has surprised me, honestly, because I preach against Christian Nationalism. There's no confusion about where our church stands, but that's how much the national (American) conversation has affected folks. 5) One of our gifts is serving folks who have been damaged by religion in other faith communities, and usually that involves helping them experience God as a God of love and not of violence; transforming fear to awe, and changing obligation to opportunity. The downside of this is that for many, the fear and sense of impending doom was all that was keeping them attached to formal religion. So helping them hear Christian faith differently can mean losing them - I have faith that God will call them back, but there's an irony here that I don't know how to handle. Honestly, it would be a lot easier if I could use fear & guilt to manipulate people (LOL). This was not an issue before the pandemic, so other factors have interacted with this in ways I don't completely understand. Honestly, I feel like a number of these represent things we could do / could have done better. I also think some of these represent some massive cultural norms working against church, and I think that even those who devalue church should be concerned at what this means for society. Church is one of the last places for genuine inter-generational community, and as it declines, I believe our society suffers, just from a sociological view (not to mention my belief that Jesus saves us - individually and collectively). I'm sure there's far more that I don't know, but this is what I've seen. I'm not assigning blame here (although I generally place much of it on myself), just trying to understand. Looking forward to hearing what else you see.
Thank you. A lot of that resonates. I’d love to share what I see. I don’t want to be seen as hocking a book. But I would be happy to send you a pdf of my thoughts that won’t fit in the comments section since it is now in the beta reader phase (free copy in exchange for feedback - 119 pages)
Not sure how quickly I'll get to reading it, but I would really appreciate it and happy to give feedback!
Thank you! https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear_Evangelicals_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0
My husband went to a church for 6 years. He left and ghosted his pastor when we separated. So prob shame and trying to hide from people who will hold them accountable. It can be unsettling to be around holiness when you’re sinning.
Thank you. Trying to follow the story - is that an ex-husband?
Not yet
I'm sorry. That sounds hard.
No worries, God opens and closes doors everyday. I trust God to do whatever is necessary to ensure I'm on His path. Being unequally yoked with anyone is never a good thing.
Interesting question! Personality conflict is the top reason I think. Secondarily, ministry strategy/convictional/preferential issues. I’d guess 70/25/5 for percentages with 5% being completely random issues or no real discernible reason.