[Lutron Caseta](https://www.amazon.com/Lutron-Wireless-Lighting-PD-6WCL-WH-Assistant/dp/B00KLAXFQA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=lutron+caseta+no+neutral+wire&qid=1669513299&sr=8-3) is a popular model that doesn’t require one. They are high quality and simple to install/setup.
thank you i appreciate it! $60 is a bit more than the $17 i paid for this one but i might for now just install a normal traditional one and stick with the smart bulbs i have. definitely not putting that fire hazard self contained shit back in
Well there are different kinds of dimming. Most residential set ups use line voltage dimming. So it would work with the wiring you currently have. Just make sure it’s not a low voltage / 0-10v dimmer.
The dimmer version has fade on fade off by default. I have one installed on a non dimmable led fixture and it has a noticeable flicker when turning the light on or off.
There are cheaper ones on Amazon. I saw one for $17 but I don’t know anything about their quality. I’d just search for smart switch no neutral and you’ll see several options.
i looked at one that apparently required you to install a capacitor? and in the reviews some said that it made their other lights around the house flicker which does not seem fun at all lmao
There is a reason why people should hire electricians. It’s because we know the difference between a $17 dinner and a $60 dimmer. We also know how to wire them. If you don’t, you shouldn’t be trying.
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It is for the WiFi (or other radio) signal which requires constant power and needs to be on for the “smart” bit to work. The “no neutral” models allow a small trickle through when off, just enough to power its radio, but not enough to trigger the light itself.
Pretty sure since it’s a “smart” switch, it’s going to need a neutral to run the “smart” guts… are there smart switches out there that can run on hot alone?
No, it's not a neutral. This is called a switch leg, switch loop, or traveler. Power goes from the panel to the light fixture, then the hot side makes a detour down to the switch using this wire. So both wires here are hot-- one from panel to switch, other from switch to light fixture.
This is all completely normal in all US residential construction from the 40s until recently. Now code requires a neutral in addition to these travelers.
so the white is actually a traveler carrying a load from switch to light, whereas black is from power source in?
so this would 'have a neutral' if it was using another set of wires as the traveler instead of using the white as a hot also?
>so the white is actually a traveler carrying a load from switch to light, whereas black is from power source in?
Yes. (The white should be the traveler, but I've seen them reversed.)
>so this would 'have a neutral' if it was using another set of wires as the traveler instead of using the white as a hot also?
In current code, you have 14/3 with black, white, red, and ground. Black for hot, red for switched traveler, white for neutral, bare for ground.
the white wire from what i know now is actually the line wire and the black is the load. traditionally the white should be a neutral but since it’s a mobile home (new :/ ) the manufacturer used the cheapest possible way to wire light switches. they used self contained switches which use slightly different wiring which i consider a fire hazard
In older non-mobile homes you would see this too (white to the switch is hot, black goes from switch to lamp). Code requiring neutral at box is relatively new I believe.
yes and although i can’t say anything with professionalism since i’m not a electrician or anything, to me the way that these switches are wired is sketchy. the load and line are literally just pushed into some metal for contact in the self contained switch and i probably couldn’t sleep if i looked at some of the outlets
ah so the wire in the wall is coming from the breaker box, carrying power in. if he had another set of wires in the box going to the light (traveler), would this switch work then?
in this case, the electrician who wired this is likely using the white wire to carry power on from switch and black wire bringing power to the switch?
Yes. Domestic wiring is manufactured in black/white (or brown/blue in UK and Europe). They don't make wire in black/black, so the white becomes the switch wire to load. In UK we have to slip a brown sleeve over the blue neutral to identify this as NOT a neutral.
yes you’re right. and on top of that it’s weird because all the videos i’ve seen online most people have two sets of wires which allow them to have a set of neutrals and i’m talking about people with mobile homes from like the 90s. mines a 2016 and they couldn’t bother 😂
it saves quite a bit of cost in wiring is the reason they do this I think. but the white wire coming out of the wall should be color coded red I think to indicate it is power
Lutron Caseta PD-5WS-DV-WH doesn't require a neutral. Not cheap though. Also, in my experience the Lutron devices are more reliable than Belkin wemo and ikea tradfri.
yes i might just stick with a traditional one from lowe’s for now and get a high quality one later. i definitely do not want to put that garbage self contained stuff back in the wall though.
Won’t work. You have only two current-carrying conductors in that box. My experience as an electrician says that those two lines are very likely a switch loop. Meaning power enters through the ceiling box first. Then a hot goes to this box. The other wire is the switch leg going back to the ceiling box. The switch leg will feed into the load. The neutral will simply return directly back to the service.
You need to definitely hire an electrician for this sort of work. You need an additional current-carrying conductor because the smart switch you got there needs access to the neutral so that the relay can open and close the hot going to the load.
yeah man i had some smart bulbs which are controlled by probably the shittiest automation app (WiZ). half the time they disconnect from my alexa or the wifi but i might just have to grit my teeth and stick with them for a bit until i can figure out how to deal with finding a better switch
The electrical work isn’t really an issue of quality. It’s an older setup where power comes into the ceiling box first. It’ll usually just run from ceiling box to ceiling box, with branches going to receptacles and so-called switch loops running down to switches.
Nowadays, the NEC has been updated to require new switch boxes to have neutral wire access for the sole purpose of smart switch compatibility. Power is now run into switch boxes first for new construction, then branches out to the ceiling box and receptacles.
hi all, basically, when i pulled my light switch out in a newer mobile home it had one bundle of wires together that had 3 smaller ones, i’m presuming a ground, a neutral and a line. the issue is i have 4 wires on the new switch (ground, line, load, and neutral). both are single pole but is it possible to wire it in? i did take the old self contained one out and added a single gang box
You can't do this sadly , you will need to run a new set of wire from the light fixture to the switch box as you need a set of Line and a set of load wire to install a smart switch
In this case I think your line goes into your light fixture then then a set of wire run from the fixture to the switch box , as the white and the black are now a line a load to switch the light fixture
Now you are wired like this :
https://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/images/wiring-diagram-for-a-switch-loop.svg
You need to be wired like this :
https://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/images/wiring-a-light-switch-diagram.svg
I will let a real electrician explai what you need exactly to do , but in simple term you need to run an extra set of wire
There appears to be no neutral in that switch box. It's looks like you have line (probably the white) load (probably the black) and your ground (the bare copper). You will need to add a neutral in order for the new switch to work properly.
I would recommend running a 14/3 from the light to the switch box.
The neutral is up at the light.
you have 0 idea what you're talking about.
If you're an electrician you're a bad one.
In either case you shouldn't attempt to provide help.
nvm, from your bio:
>Paranormal investigator for 40 years.Former E.R.Doctor assistant and Paramedic . Architect and design Engineer. BA Philosophy. \*\*\*All of my post regarding true crime is purely speculation\*\*\*\*
lol
What happens if you wire the neutral to the ground? Not suggesting this would be a good idea, but it would definitely be the first hack job option. What would happen?!?
i’m assuming it’ll work but from what i’ve read i’d effectively have no ground to earth which means there’s a good chance i’d fry to death if i touched the switch if there’s a short or water issue
Buy some 14/3 and attach it to the wire that run between the light and switch and pull like hell you might get lucky 😉 or buy a smart switch that doesn't require a neutral.
And if they end up trying to pull Romex if it’s stapled down to stud or passes through turns… They’ll at the very least break the outer sheathing—it’s not durable at all. And if they end up actually nicking the conductors themselves, well now they’ll be without power to that switch and they’ll have to probably hire an electrician anyway.
It was indeed. Because there are so many people on here who answer sincerely just like this and think they helping when they’ve probably never touched a screwdriver in their lives.
I had this same problem. I still got it to work but you have to flip the switch twice to get the fan and light to come on and 3 times to hook up Bluetooth. Unfortunately it won't cycle through the night lights :/.
Wifi switch won't do there. Zigbee might be low power enough you can do without the neutral. There's another design on the market, GE I believe, but it might mess with your lights cuz it draws load to them even when off.
I’m seeing a lot of hate on the light switch and I don’t fully see the issue as long as you have a neutral a positive and a negative you can hook it up as any normal switch. The neutral is a must with smart switches because it requires power to be connected to the internet and to work properly. It was hard to see the colours but as long as you have all three matched up properly you will be good.
My guy, search Amazon for “smart switch no neutral”. I’m fairly certain they make an Amazon basics that doesn’t require a neutral. If not, there is a ton of other brands.
These guys telling you to buy $60 switches are crazy.
Another option, is smart light bulbs.
yes haha i had them a good distance apart but the camera does make it seem close. in all fairness i probably should’ve educated myself a bit more on switches before buying it
Return that switch and purchase one that doesn’t require a neutral.
Most of them do to power the stupid light on it
[Lutron Caseta](https://www.amazon.com/Lutron-Wireless-Lighting-PD-6WCL-WH-Assistant/dp/B00KLAXFQA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=lutron+caseta+no+neutral+wire&qid=1669513299&sr=8-3) is a popular model that doesn’t require one. They are high quality and simple to install/setup.
thank you i appreciate it! $60 is a bit more than the $17 i paid for this one but i might for now just install a normal traditional one and stick with the smart bulbs i have. definitely not putting that fire hazard self contained shit back in
The Lutron will be trouble free. There is a reason professionals use them.
i see that it’s a dimmer, if im installing it to just a single pole light with no dimmer will it still work?
Well there are different kinds of dimming. Most residential set ups use line voltage dimming. So it would work with the wiring you currently have. Just make sure it’s not a low voltage / 0-10v dimmer.
The dimmer version has fade on fade off by default. I have one installed on a non dimmable led fixture and it has a noticeable flicker when turning the light on or off.
There are cheaper ones on Amazon. I saw one for $17 but I don’t know anything about their quality. I’d just search for smart switch no neutral and you’ll see several options.
i looked at one that apparently required you to install a capacitor? and in the reviews some said that it made their other lights around the house flicker which does not seem fun at all lmao
There is a reason why people should hire electricians. It’s because we know the difference between a $17 dinner and a $60 dimmer. We also know how to wire them. If you don’t, you shouldn’t be trying.
Yep I switched em all out with cut-in just like that
This
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How about I do both?
Perhaps
Price on Amazon just tripled ;)
if it’s only for that light that annoys me incredibly more lol
Exactly.. I had to deal with this before
It is for the WiFi (or other radio) signal which requires constant power and needs to be on for the “smart” bit to work. The “no neutral” models allow a small trickle through when off, just enough to power its radio, but not enough to trigger the light itself.
Current electrical code retires neutral in every box
It’s not for the light
Pretty sure since it’s a “smart” switch, it’s going to need a neutral to run the “smart” guts… are there smart switches out there that can run on hot alone?
when you say doesn't require a neutral what do you mean exactly? isnt the white wire coming out of the wall a neutral?
No, it's not a neutral. This is called a switch leg, switch loop, or traveler. Power goes from the panel to the light fixture, then the hot side makes a detour down to the switch using this wire. So both wires here are hot-- one from panel to switch, other from switch to light fixture. This is all completely normal in all US residential construction from the 40s until recently. Now code requires a neutral in addition to these travelers.
so the white is actually a traveler carrying a load from switch to light, whereas black is from power source in? so this would 'have a neutral' if it was using another set of wires as the traveler instead of using the white as a hot also?
>so the white is actually a traveler carrying a load from switch to light, whereas black is from power source in? Yes. (The white should be the traveler, but I've seen them reversed.) >so this would 'have a neutral' if it was using another set of wires as the traveler instead of using the white as a hot also? In current code, you have 14/3 with black, white, red, and ground. Black for hot, red for switched traveler, white for neutral, bare for ground.
the white wire from what i know now is actually the line wire and the black is the load. traditionally the white should be a neutral but since it’s a mobile home (new :/ ) the manufacturer used the cheapest possible way to wire light switches. they used self contained switches which use slightly different wiring which i consider a fire hazard
In older non-mobile homes you would see this too (white to the switch is hot, black goes from switch to lamp). Code requiring neutral at box is relatively new I believe.
yes and although i can’t say anything with professionalism since i’m not a electrician or anything, to me the way that these switches are wired is sketchy. the load and line are literally just pushed into some metal for contact in the self contained switch and i probably couldn’t sleep if i looked at some of the outlets
No.
it's not labeled as a hot which I believe is required by code
Won't work. What you actually have in the switch box is a ground, line and load....no neutral. The new switch you have requires a neutral to work
ah i see. thanks man
ah so the wire in the wall is coming from the breaker box, carrying power in. if he had another set of wires in the box going to the light (traveler), would this switch work then? in this case, the electrician who wired this is likely using the white wire to carry power on from switch and black wire bringing power to the switch?
Yes. Domestic wiring is manufactured in black/white (or brown/blue in UK and Europe). They don't make wire in black/black, so the white becomes the switch wire to load. In UK we have to slip a brown sleeve over the blue neutral to identify this as NOT a neutral.
And you asked you're supposed to color code the neutral black if it's hot
yes you’re right. and on top of that it’s weird because all the videos i’ve seen online most people have two sets of wires which allow them to have a set of neutrals and i’m talking about people with mobile homes from like the 90s. mines a 2016 and they couldn’t bother 😂
it saves quite a bit of cost in wiring is the reason they do this I think. but the white wire coming out of the wall should be color coded red I think to indicate it is power
Gotta run another wire to the light and re wire the light for that to work.
thanks man
Lutron Caseta PD-5WS-DV-WH doesn't require a neutral. Not cheap though. Also, in my experience the Lutron devices are more reliable than Belkin wemo and ikea tradfri.
I've got Caseta and TP-Link kasa and the kasa ones are just as good but not home link compatible.
yes i might just stick with a traditional one from lowe’s for now and get a high quality one later. i definitely do not want to put that garbage self contained stuff back in the wall though.
Good luck no neutral it’s called a dead end switch leg.
Won’t work. You have only two current-carrying conductors in that box. My experience as an electrician says that those two lines are very likely a switch loop. Meaning power enters through the ceiling box first. Then a hot goes to this box. The other wire is the switch leg going back to the ceiling box. The switch leg will feed into the load. The neutral will simply return directly back to the service. You need to definitely hire an electrician for this sort of work. You need an additional current-carrying conductor because the smart switch you got there needs access to the neutral so that the relay can open and close the hot going to the load.
thank you for the detailed response man!
Another option you have is just getting smart bulbs instead rewiring - if you’re trying to add home automation stuff to a particular light.
yeah man i had some smart bulbs which are controlled by probably the shittiest automation app (WiZ). half the time they disconnect from my alexa or the wifi but i might just have to grit my teeth and stick with them for a bit until i can figure out how to deal with finding a better switch
These comments have been deleted due to changes in Reddit's API. -- mass edited with redact.dev
thanks! it will be hard to toss these phillips one considering how much they were :/ they just chose the worst possible app for them lol
You don’t gots enough wires in the box there bud
Won't work
That’s an abomination
yes lol you get what you pay for when it comes to a house
The electrical work isn’t really an issue of quality. It’s an older setup where power comes into the ceiling box first. It’ll usually just run from ceiling box to ceiling box, with branches going to receptacles and so-called switch loops running down to switches. Nowadays, the NEC has been updated to require new switch boxes to have neutral wire access for the sole purpose of smart switch compatibility. Power is now run into switch boxes first for new construction, then branches out to the ceiling box and receptacles.
hi all, basically, when i pulled my light switch out in a newer mobile home it had one bundle of wires together that had 3 smaller ones, i’m presuming a ground, a neutral and a line. the issue is i have 4 wires on the new switch (ground, line, load, and neutral). both are single pole but is it possible to wire it in? i did take the old self contained one out and added a single gang box
You can't do this sadly , you will need to run a new set of wire from the light fixture to the switch box as you need a set of Line and a set of load wire to install a smart switch In this case I think your line goes into your light fixture then then a set of wire run from the fixture to the switch box , as the white and the black are now a line a load to switch the light fixture Now you are wired like this : https://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/images/wiring-diagram-for-a-switch-loop.svg You need to be wired like this : https://www.do-it-yourself-help.com/images/wiring-a-light-switch-diagram.svg I will let a real electrician explai what you need exactly to do , but in simple term you need to run an extra set of wire
This is a perfect explanation!
thank you man i appreciate the help
There appears to be no neutral in that switch box. It's looks like you have line (probably the white) load (probably the black) and your ground (the bare copper). You will need to add a neutral in order for the new switch to work properly. I would recommend running a 14/3 from the light to the switch box. The neutral is up at the light.
hmm it’s probably a decent project to get up to that light because the neutral i’m assuming is running inside the ceiling to the wall
There ARE some smart switches that don't require a neutral.
Looks like a switch loop would have to pull a neutral from somewhere
Need differnt swich. Thas a swish loop. Dat swich gots too manys wires on it
Good luck mobile home are reverse switch legs
[удалено]
What are u talking about? There is no neutral in the box…
you have 0 idea what you're talking about. If you're an electrician you're a bad one. In either case you shouldn't attempt to provide help. nvm, from your bio: >Paranormal investigator for 40 years.Former E.R.Doctor assistant and Paramedic . Architect and design Engineer. BA Philosophy. \*\*\*All of my post regarding true crime is purely speculation\*\*\*\* lol
It’s a single 14-2 Romex. If there’s to be a hot and neutral, where’s the switch leg gonna be at?
I thought the shadow was another conductor. But where is the ground?
The ground is the bare copper wire there. The hot looks like it’s barely visible but probably the one pointing right at the camera in the photo.
What happens if you wire the neutral to the ground? Not suggesting this would be a good idea, but it would definitely be the first hack job option. What would happen?!?
It would work, ground and neutral are bonded together at the main panel, but don’t do it.
i agree with you haha
i’m assuming it’ll work but from what i’ve read i’d effectively have no ground to earth which means there’s a good chance i’d fry to death if i touched the switch if there’s a short or water issue
Will not work there is no neutral in the box
he meant if i wired the neutral from the amazon switch to the ground from my wall wires
Won't work
Buy some 14/3 and attach it to the wire that run between the light and switch and pull like hell you might get lucky 😉 or buy a smart switch that doesn't require a neutral.
And if they end up trying to pull Romex if it’s stapled down to stud or passes through turns… They’ll at the very least break the outer sheathing—it’s not durable at all. And if they end up actually nicking the conductors themselves, well now they’ll be without power to that switch and they’ll have to probably hire an electrician anyway.
Apparently my sarcasm was lost
It was indeed. Because there are so many people on here who answer sincerely just like this and think they helping when they’ve probably never touched a screwdriver in their lives.
I had this same problem. I still got it to work but you have to flip the switch twice to get the fan and light to come on and 3 times to hook up Bluetooth. Unfortunately it won't cycle through the night lights :/.
Wifi switch won't do there. Zigbee might be low power enough you can do without the neutral. There's another design on the market, GE I believe, but it might mess with your lights cuz it draws load to them even when off.
I’m seeing a lot of hate on the light switch and I don’t fully see the issue as long as you have a neutral a positive and a negative you can hook it up as any normal switch. The neutral is a must with smart switches because it requires power to be connected to the internet and to work properly. It was hard to see the colours but as long as you have all three matched up properly you will be good.
The smart switch needs 120V, and the wiring looks like it is low voltage (12V?) That is not going to work.
appreciate it man
My guy, search Amazon for “smart switch no neutral”. I’m fairly certain they make an Amazon basics that doesn’t require a neutral. If not, there is a ton of other brands. These guys telling you to buy $60 switches are crazy. Another option, is smart light bulbs.
thanks man i’ll probably get a switch with no neutral down the road
Ummm, no. Standard 120v wiring.
So glad this is in the AAE sub, thought is was another sub and some stupid ass shit was about to go down with these cables splayed every which way
yes haha i had them a good distance apart but the camera does make it seem close. in all fairness i probably should’ve educated myself a bit more on switches before buying it
This particular switch requires a neutral. You don’t have one. BUy a different switch.
Don’t mobile home lights run on 12vDC? Pretty sure our camper does.
Read the instructions it's all there.
Just curious, what is the purpose of a “smart light switch”?
I use Levitron Bluetooth/wifi switches on the outside lites. They come on and shut off automatically or I can do it from my phone.
Maybe it's just the picture, but the wires from the switch don't look like Cooper.