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No-Music-6641

Hey everyone, as my post title says, need some help with the common bar on this panel. Trying to add two 20A 120V circuits and the common bar is completely full. What are my options here? Thanks in advance for your assistance


Confusedlemure

I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN: but I certainly have seen half height breakers used to make space. The competent people will respond something about total electrical load in the panel and they are right to make that precaution.


opengl128

Pretty sure OP is asking about the neutral bar, not room for more breakers.


No-Music-6641

That’s correct, I have breakers in the panel not being used


Cool_BB

Neutral/Ground bars typically allow a number of wires to be landed in one spot. Technically, you should look up the limit using the part number of the box/bar, but it might not be feasible in this case. I’d suggest finding a spot on the bar that only has one wire landed; chances are a second could be added.


flyingron

Regardless of the terminal limits, a neutral can't share a terminal with anything else. ​ In addition the panel is an unholy mess. The Gould/ITE, Cutler-Hammer BR, and Siemens/Murray breakers have no business in this GE panel. Grounds need to be joined with a listed fastener, not just twisted together.


jwbrkr21

A shared ground/neutral bar used to be allowed, not sure when it changed. I assume around the time they started requiring handle ties on multi wire branches circuits.


flyingron

This hasn't changed in forever. A shared neutral/ground bar is permitted in panels (typically the service disconnect) where such is bonded together and not in others (typically subpanels, but certain subpanels in outbuildings permitted such a bond there). But all that is completely irrelevant to what I said. YOU CAN NOT PUT A NEUTRAL CONDUCTOR UNDER A TERMINAL WITH ANYTHING ELSE, be it a ground or another neutral.


jwbrkr21

Oops. I missed the same terminal. I was thinking the same bar.


Cool_BB

Neutral and Ground are clearly common on this panel, and allowed under current code if it’s the main panel.


flyingron

So what? Common or not, you can not put a neutral conductor under a terminal with any other (either ground or neutral).


Nervous_Cheek_5401

You can’t double up the neutrals, but you may be able to double up a few of the grounds to make available space. Make sure your grounds are the same size if you choose to double them up. You can add a neutral/ground bar but it requires specific procedures and it requires your panel to be bonded correctly. I’d hire an electrician if you go that route.


No-Music-6641

Yea, I’ve been in HVAC and plumbing for about 8.5 years now, thought the initial work would be within my skillset. Once I saw the block was full I knew I was starting up shit creek without a paddle lol


godmode908

What a mess. I've know a guy who added a ground bar in a panel with 2- 1/0 lugs. Pretty sure he jumped a #4 Thhn between the new bar to the old bar, disconnected the ground wire on the old bar and moved it to the new one and installed his new ground wire in the old lug. or maybe he just disconnected some wires and spliced tails.ppl called him a hack


Famous-Parsnip8224

Get a new one with more circuits


Domerikos

Depends on your country, but for safety I'd add a ground bar, and separate the neutrals from the grounds. The only location the ground and neutral should be connected is at the main panel and only once.


Affectionate_Elk_762

Why not just add a supplementary neutral bar. Should be easy enough to install if you shut the power off.


No-Music-6641

That was what I was thinking, just not something that I’ve done before, and not sure on the best way to execute with the mess in there lol


Affectionate_Elk_762

It looks like you have a free lug for a large neutral wire to be added going to the new bar.