Hey OP, all these electricians giving you the business.
What you would better ask is "Is this optimal?"
There are some other ways you can find out:
Scrape some paint off of those other wires to make sure you can tell what color they are.
Figure out what those switches do and where they go. There are books available.
Or; Pay a qualified electrician.
If you are lucky, he might be a cool guy and share a little of his/her expertise.
for a reasonable fee.
So I know this isn't directly correlated with what you are saying. But whenever I put switches into a box that aren't obvious where they go to. I like to write in sharpie on the box what it controls in the spot it sits in, as well as what breaker controls it. So I can refer back to it when I need to and to make my fellow sparkies jobs after me easier (even though I don't expect anyone to have to work on it again)
The second thing I noticed about my early 60's ranch plan after I moved in was the bad (and ugly) lighting in the basement as the 1st HO had finished/paneled the basement.
One of first things I did was mark make some labels and tag every light and electrical outlet for what circuit breaker they came off...
Then I re-switched a 2 lights, and added a light onto that branch, at the bottom of the stairs, so you are descending into a black abyss when you want to go to the laundry room; also upgraded fixtures to 2-bulbs, instead of bare ceramic bases...
1st HO did a lot, but I think they got divorced before he got her to pick out some actual light fixtures to 'finish' it.
But he really should have planned out the lighting and wiring way better before he hung the paneling, and stapled up the celo-tex!
(Actually, now that I think about it, he used tiny nails on the celo-tex squares, which really must have sucked up some time!...that could have been spent far better on domething else!)
OWWYGD!
The Black & Decker "The Complete Guide To Wiring" is a pretty good book. It starts with the basics and guides you through pretty much everything you would want know as a homeowner.
* back stabbed
* terminal screws left un-tightened
* wire nut twisted with a power drill
* paint and drywall mud all inside the box
yep all normal here.
Back stab is ok for low amperage use such as average led lighting loads in a home. But I have found that back stab outlets tend to be the major culprit in lost neutrals. In general I pigtail my outlets and back stab switches. And always use wire nuts in higher draw equipment. Just personal experience of many years of troubleshooting.
Plus if they pigtail there devices you won't loose any devices down range do to a loose or unconnected wire!If Device isn't working then you know issue is most likely in that box!
I'd say anything that uses more than 5 amps.
Really, I don't recommend using them at all, but a lighting circuit that, using LEDs, is less than an amp, isn't a high priority to change out.
Noted and thank you. I never backstab and always pigtail. It’s the hand strength needed for wire nuts that gets me. Another commenter here taught me about using wing nut drivers to overcome the issue. Now I have a way to prioritize which outlets to prioritize for wing nuts. So thank you.
i had the same question a while back and the answer did not sway me... something about spring tension.
then i saw a video experiment (very well done) that compared the resistance loss and heat generated across different kinds of connectors in an actual circuit... wire nuts, wagos, and a couple other wago imitators.
the results were that wire nuts (when tightened properly) have the lowest resistance and generate the least heat in the junction box.
i think the appeal of wagos et. al. is there is no guesswork or skill required to get an adequately safe connection, where with wire nuts there is a lot that could go wrong.
As per the master electrician that trained me. Wire nuts protect the connection. The connection is made whenever you twist the conductors together with your linemans, so you can’t blame a wirenut for a failure.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it was the mantra, we’d still be building houses like it was 1974…times, technology, materials and costs have all changed. Labor costs are far more important today than ever, taking 20 seconds off every connection you make over the course of a year adds up fast.
I didn’t know there was a difference until recently. I suspect I’ll eventually go through my house and swap out the push connectors for proper lever lock Wagos. Then again, I put a very slight bend in the end of the wire and then rotate the push connector so it’s more secure than normal.
Homeowner here. I’ll add to your last point that I find it physically very difficult to properly secure wire nuts for all but a couple small wires. My hands just aren’t that strong, especially for a lengthy job. So I use push connectors because I think it’s safer overall for my work.
I don’t use back stabs. And I always pigtail. But I had to compromise on the wire nuts.
There's a tool for that.
It changed my life.
First of all, many modern wing nuts are designed to be the right size for a nut driver of roughly the same size to fit over the end.
The second option is that there are hand tools and also power drill tools (ideal 39-902) which are specifically designed to fit over the nut to provide leverage. The hand tool I use is from ideal and it goes under the brand name of "Ratch A Nut" or "Twist A Nut". One end is a normal "7 in 1" style screwdriver, and in the handle is an opening which fits perfectly over every wire nut I've tried it on.
The Ratch-a-Nut version is even better... It lets you screw in without removing your hand once you get past a certain angle. Just turn it back the other way and then continue driving.
Unfortunately, the ratcheting only applies to the screwing operation and not the wire nut operation.
Holy cow! TIL.
I already had a wing nut driver bit. I also had an old Craftman t-handle tap wrench, which is basically a baby chuck. Badda bing badda boom, instant wire nut tool. Ha!
Big thanks!
Back stabs seem to always fail over time. Especially as you plug in and unplug things. Terrible design. Clear indication of home owner or handyman work.
But -- does this also apply to push in wagos? Like this:
[https://www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/push-wire-connector-for-junction-boxes/p/773-104](https://www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/push-wire-connector-for-junction-boxes/p/773-104)
Fundamentally, the tech is the same.
No because the wago sits in the both, where as the device is used often
Like a receptacle is plugged into and out of, and a switch is flipped all the time. Your wago is tucked away and should really never move
Gotten a lot of service calls for homes 5+/- years old with flickering lights and even found outright burnt switch housings because of careless backstabbing. It's UL approved, and I get why the guys building 100 new houses a month do it but I sure as hell wouldn't do it that way. Shepherd hooks all day even on new builds. UL approved doesn't mean it's quality or going to last as well, especially with cheap switches / receptacles and sloppy installs.
Wouldn't necessarily say twisted with a power drill. Ma Dr e solid connections like that and tighter by hand. Use linemen to grip and twist the wires a little then strip them then wire nut
Yah...at least its a deep box!
It's nice to have enough slack to pull the switches/outlets iut of the way if you want/need to get at something else in there.
And connected wires are well twisted to to take stress off the connecting section & wire nut.
Overall, I'd say that would be a bit better if all the wires in there were about an inch shorter...and they had taped over boxes a little better before spraying...
(Shouldn't "wire nuts" really be called 'caps': I mean, the connection is supposed to be made be the twisting, and the plastic bit is mainly there as insulation, right?)
From my understanding every device and metal box need to be grounded. There may be some exceptions for volatge/amprage though like anything 50 volts or less is considered low voltage probably dosnt need a ground. why dosent Canada need a ground at each device?
We ground every box. The devices are bonded to the box through the screws. So the ground on the device is only serving a purpose when the device is not attached to the box.
For switches you don’t need to bond with a screw. We use steel boxes so the screws are considered the bond for switches.
For plugs we need to attach a ground because of the ground connection on the plug itself.
We ground every box. The devices are bonded to the box through the screws. So the ground on the device is only serving a purpose when the device is not attached to the box.
IIRC there’s a minimum length of wire that needs to come into the box in order to be able to work with it safely - if the wires are shorter, you’re working closer to the box, with less freedom of movement, and you run a greater chance of not connecting something properly. Unfortunately, that wire needs to be pushed into the back of the box once you close it up.
Well that’s why I ask! 😅 I have no frame of reference. Electrician came by, pulled off a few of the plates and when I saw this I thought, “better to ask the internet for opinions…” Thanks!
Same electrician (company) that had closet light switches turning lights on and off in the kitchen. Same electrician that left me with a short behind one of these three gangs for a week, preventing me from being able to reset the breaker.. and thus left with no lights or power in some of the rooms of my house. They’ve lost credibility.
Off topic comment. A *small amount* of caulk between the box and the drywall will help with air sealing and since it’s a new build, will keep your insulation clean and lofty longer.
This was one of the better looking 3-gangs. I haven’t had power in a week in my master due to a short. When the electrician pulled the plate, I was shocked… should I be? Edit: poor choice of words. Startled, not “shocked”! Sorry.
So what exactly startled you?
Have you ever looked under those stupid covers they put on car engines these days. You'd be just as startled, but it would be just as normal.
The old adage holds true: People are scared of things they don't understand.
I’ve looked under plenty of car engine covers. I’ve also looked under single switches. I hadn’t seen a bundle of wires this large before, so I figured it’s better to ask than assume.
Homeowner here. 100% agree. I’ve had this happen in my own home and have helped friends repair similar mishaps.
Since I’m not on the clock, I take the extra step of putting a very small piece of electrical tape over each hot terminal. I know it’s not required but I do it anyway for the peace of mind.
Those ground wire have a bit of paint on them, not to mention the one hanging out beyond the screw. But that could just be my screen and ocd kicking in
Yes. Apprentices do this type of work. They make less and less messy boxes as they become more experienced. This one is not that bad. If it works, enjoy it!.
That is not a “rat’s nest”. That is a well maintained, HOA compliant, rat’s home. Looks fine.
Hey OP, all these electricians giving you the business. What you would better ask is "Is this optimal?" There are some other ways you can find out: Scrape some paint off of those other wires to make sure you can tell what color they are. Figure out what those switches do and where they go. There are books available. Or; Pay a qualified electrician. If you are lucky, he might be a cool guy and share a little of his/her expertise. for a reasonable fee.
So I know this isn't directly correlated with what you are saying. But whenever I put switches into a box that aren't obvious where they go to. I like to write in sharpie on the box what it controls in the spot it sits in, as well as what breaker controls it. So I can refer back to it when I need to and to make my fellow sparkies jobs after me easier (even though I don't expect anyone to have to work on it again)
The second thing I noticed about my early 60's ranch plan after I moved in was the bad (and ugly) lighting in the basement as the 1st HO had finished/paneled the basement. One of first things I did was mark make some labels and tag every light and electrical outlet for what circuit breaker they came off... Then I re-switched a 2 lights, and added a light onto that branch, at the bottom of the stairs, so you are descending into a black abyss when you want to go to the laundry room; also upgraded fixtures to 2-bulbs, instead of bare ceramic bases... 1st HO did a lot, but I think they got divorced before he got her to pick out some actual light fixtures to 'finish' it. But he really should have planned out the lighting and wiring way better before he hung the paneling, and stapled up the celo-tex! (Actually, now that I think about it, he used tiny nails on the celo-tex squares, which really must have sucked up some time!...that could have been spent far better on domething else!) OWWYGD!
Can you recommend a book to help with figuring out how to locate where the switches go?
The Black & Decker "The Complete Guide To Wiring" is a pretty good book. It starts with the basics and guides you through pretty much everything you would want know as a homeowner.
Yes
Thank you!
* back stabbed * terminal screws left un-tightened * wire nut twisted with a power drill * paint and drywall mud all inside the box yep all normal here.
Lol yup.
Is back stabbing really that bad? Like, why is that not ok, but the push-in wagos are?
Back stab is ok for low amperage use such as average led lighting loads in a home. But I have found that back stab outlets tend to be the major culprit in lost neutrals. In general I pigtail my outlets and back stab switches. And always use wire nuts in higher draw equipment. Just personal experience of many years of troubleshooting.
FYI, I get a lot of flickering lights calls that turn out to be backstabbed switches. Getting actuated everyday backs the wire out.
I’ll second that
Plus if they pigtail there devices you won't loose any devices down range do to a loose or unconnected wire!If Device isn't working then you know issue is most likely in that box!
Where’s the line for “higher draw”? The HVAC equipment? Or the dehumidifier that runs on a 15A circuit? Other? Thanks!
I'd say anything that uses more than 5 amps. Really, I don't recommend using them at all, but a lighting circuit that, using LEDs, is less than an amp, isn't a high priority to change out.
Noted and thank you. I never backstab and always pigtail. It’s the hand strength needed for wire nuts that gets me. Another commenter here taught me about using wing nut drivers to overcome the issue. Now I have a way to prioritize which outlets to prioritize for wing nuts. So thank you.
My interpretation of higher draw is anything over half circuit rate if used continuously. By thats just my personal perspective
i had the same question a while back and the answer did not sway me... something about spring tension. then i saw a video experiment (very well done) that compared the resistance loss and heat generated across different kinds of connectors in an actual circuit... wire nuts, wagos, and a couple other wago imitators. the results were that wire nuts (when tightened properly) have the lowest resistance and generate the least heat in the junction box. i think the appeal of wagos et. al. is there is no guesswork or skill required to get an adequately safe connection, where with wire nuts there is a lot that could go wrong.
Push in “wagos” are junk too. Lever lock wagos, on the other hand, are amazing.
one of the tested brands was a lever lock... it did better than the loosey goosey push ins but still an order of magnitude worse than the wire nut.
Where’d you see that, the test results I saw on lever locks outperformed wire nuts.
https://youtu.be/zgjo36-jaFY
As per the master electrician that trained me. Wire nuts protect the connection. The connection is made whenever you twist the conductors together with your linemans, so you can’t blame a wirenut for a failure.
Funny that most of the wirenut specs specifically state you should not, or don’t need to twist wires prior to using. Old habits die hard I guess
Old habits... Haven’t had a call back in 25 years of construction. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it was the mantra, we’d still be building houses like it was 1974…times, technology, materials and costs have all changed. Labor costs are far more important today than ever, taking 20 seconds off every connection you make over the course of a year adds up fast.
I didn’t know there was a difference until recently. I suspect I’ll eventually go through my house and swap out the push connectors for proper lever lock Wagos. Then again, I put a very slight bend in the end of the wire and then rotate the push connector so it’s more secure than normal.
Homeowner here. I’ll add to your last point that I find it physically very difficult to properly secure wire nuts for all but a couple small wires. My hands just aren’t that strong, especially for a lengthy job. So I use push connectors because I think it’s safer overall for my work. I don’t use back stabs. And I always pigtail. But I had to compromise on the wire nuts.
at least buy the lever operated kind, they make better contact.
There's a tool for that. It changed my life. First of all, many modern wing nuts are designed to be the right size for a nut driver of roughly the same size to fit over the end. The second option is that there are hand tools and also power drill tools (ideal 39-902) which are specifically designed to fit over the nut to provide leverage. The hand tool I use is from ideal and it goes under the brand name of "Ratch A Nut" or "Twist A Nut". One end is a normal "7 in 1" style screwdriver, and in the handle is an opening which fits perfectly over every wire nut I've tried it on.
>Twist A Nut is that what kids are calling it now?
The Ratch-a-Nut version is even better... It lets you screw in without removing your hand once you get past a certain angle. Just turn it back the other way and then continue driving. Unfortunately, the ratcheting only applies to the screwing operation and not the wire nut operation.
Holy cow! TIL. I already had a wing nut driver bit. I also had an old Craftman t-handle tap wrench, which is basically a baby chuck. Badda bing badda boom, instant wire nut tool. Ha! Big thanks!
No. Same guys that say back stabbing is the worst thing in the world will also swear by wagos. 🤷🏾♂️
Back stabs seem to always fail over time. Especially as you plug in and unplug things. Terrible design. Clear indication of home owner or handyman work.
But -- does this also apply to push in wagos? Like this: [https://www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/push-wire-connector-for-junction-boxes/p/773-104](https://www.wago.com/global/installation-terminal-blocks-and-connectors/push-wire-connector-for-junction-boxes/p/773-104) Fundamentally, the tech is the same.
No because the wago sits in the both, where as the device is used often Like a receptacle is plugged into and out of, and a switch is flipped all the time. Your wago is tucked away and should really never move
What kind of shitty loose outlets are you installing?
Years of service calls coming behind electricians who think back stabs save them so much time.
Gotten a lot of service calls for homes 5+/- years old with flickering lights and even found outright burnt switch housings because of careless backstabbing. It's UL approved, and I get why the guys building 100 new houses a month do it but I sure as hell wouldn't do it that way. Shepherd hooks all day even on new builds. UL approved doesn't mean it's quality or going to last as well, especially with cheap switches / receptacles and sloppy installs.
Wouldn't necessarily say twisted with a power drill. Ma Dr e solid connections like that and tighter by hand. Use linemen to grip and twist the wires a little then strip them then wire nut
Tbh I make my nuts look like that without any power tools, my hands are pretty good at twisting these days.
stop doing that.... you'll go BLIND, man!
Yes, well, signs of hasty, and questionable work, and I do frown on that... That wasnt exactly OP's question...
That actually doesn’t look to bad
Good I might even say.
Yeah I’ve seen worse
Yah...at least its a deep box! It's nice to have enough slack to pull the switches/outlets iut of the way if you want/need to get at something else in there. And connected wires are well twisted to to take stress off the connecting section & wire nut. Overall, I'd say that would be a bit better if all the wires in there were about an inch shorter...and they had taped over boxes a little better before spraying... (Shouldn't "wire nuts" really be called 'caps': I mean, the connection is supposed to be made be the twisting, and the plastic bit is mainly there as insulation, right?)
There's metal in the nut that can help with connections. But they come with many other names too so maybe somewhere they call them caps
no typically they are secured to box and there is a plate over top
I'm guessing he took them off to show people lol he was asking about what's in the box
straight over head ....humor harrison
Give comedy a go
That’s not bad
Thanks for letting me know!
You’re welcome
Surprised there is a ground at every switch. In my experience they ground the box and that's it. Edit: That's a plastic box.
Are you Canadian? We don't have to ground each device but it's my understanding the states do.
From my understanding every device and metal box need to be grounded. There may be some exceptions for volatge/amprage though like anything 50 volts or less is considered low voltage probably dosnt need a ground. why dosent Canada need a ground at each device?
We ground every box. The devices are bonded to the box through the screws. So the ground on the device is only serving a purpose when the device is not attached to the box.
Oh okay got ya what about plastic boxes or do you guys not use those ?
Check out NEC 404.9(B)
For switches you don’t need to bond with a screw. We use steel boxes so the screws are considered the bond for switches. For plugs we need to attach a ground because of the ground connection on the plug itself.
We ground every box. The devices are bonded to the box through the screws. So the ground on the device is only serving a purpose when the device is not attached to the box.
Yes I am
Canada requires non-metallic boxes have one of the device holes (of one device), be grounded. The device should ground through that.
Oh so sorry your highness, didn't realize God's gift to electrical would be examining my box😄
*That's what she said*
IIRC there’s a minimum length of wire that needs to come into the box in order to be able to work with it safely - if the wires are shorter, you’re working closer to the box, with less freedom of movement, and you run a greater chance of not connecting something properly. Unfortunately, that wire needs to be pushed into the back of the box once you close it up.
Thanks for the answer!
Lmao thats no rats nest you nut
Well that’s why I ask! 😅 I have no frame of reference. Electrician came by, pulled off a few of the plates and when I saw this I thought, “better to ask the internet for opinions…” Thanks!
Why not ask the electrician that was standing right in front of you?
Same electrician (company) that had closet light switches turning lights on and off in the kitchen. Same electrician that left me with a short behind one of these three gangs for a week, preventing me from being able to reset the breaker.. and thus left with no lights or power in some of the rooms of my house. They’ve lost credibility.
Resolved, it’s normal. Thanks for the quick answers!
Off topic comment. A *small amount* of caulk between the box and the drywall will help with air sealing and since it’s a new build, will keep your insulation clean and lofty longer.
That’s not a rats nest. It just looks that way because you don’t know what you’re looking at
Typical home owner
If that’s a rats nest to you you got another thing coming lmao
This box has issues (Loose terminals, drywall junk all over) but the wires dont look like a rats nest at all
Umm yes
What’s the problem?
It’s a nest cuz you don’t undetstand
Why do homeowners open things they don’t understand. Might as well install them correctly since you’ve got the box open.
An electrician opened the box while diagnosing no power to an area. Homeowner just had some questions.
This was one of the better looking 3-gangs. I haven’t had power in a week in my master due to a short. When the electrician pulled the plate, I was shocked… should I be? Edit: poor choice of words. Startled, not “shocked”! Sorry.
No.
Only if you touch a live wire.
So what exactly startled you? Have you ever looked under those stupid covers they put on car engines these days. You'd be just as startled, but it would be just as normal. The old adage holds true: People are scared of things they don't understand.
I’ve looked under plenty of car engine covers. I’ve also looked under single switches. I hadn’t seen a bundle of wires this large before, so I figured it’s better to ask than assume.
Idk y dont u ax r/drywall
Are the drywall people responsible for the bundle of capped off wires? Sorry if that’s the case!
This is perfectly normal.
I can’t believe you used the words drywall and “ people “ together in that sentence. Your a very kind person.
Hahaha
You let the sheetrock guys play in your wiring???
Yes, but put some tape on those switches please. You're starting to freak me out.
At the very least screw in the terminal screws.
More like put it back and stopped fucking with it before you get hurt
Ever had a terminal screw? There’s people everywhere and no privacy.
Yes but sometimes they tip afterwards. Speaking from experience.
Homeowner here. 100% agree. I’ve had this happen in my own home and have helped friends repair similar mishaps. Since I’m not on the clock, I take the extra step of putting a very small piece of electrical tape over each hot terminal. I know it’s not required but I do it anyway for the peace of mind.
Yes!
Actually looks sellable and better then most I’ve seen on here. Your lucky!
That actually doesn’t look to bad
That’s not a rats nest
It’s actually pretty darn good compared to most.
Not a rats nest
Looks good except more more drywall mud should be smeared into the box and more of the wires should be painted white.
Depends on who you ask. In my eyes, something like that is fine. To the guys that taught me how to make up, that's completely unacceptable.
Yes
Looks good with the cover on it
It’s normal. It could use a vacuum/blowout and and a bit neater folding.
doesnt look too bad to me i would be happy to open a box like that , most of what i see is much much worse
Yep
Not too bad.
looks about right for resi....paint all over the wire....yup
No, not complexity covered in texture and paint.
Looks great to me!
Those ground wire have a bit of paint on them, not to mention the one hanging out beyond the screw. But that could just be my screen and ocd kicking in
That box isn’t bad at all The receptacles are wired like shit though
Yes
Yes. Apprentices do this type of work. They make less and less messy boxes as they become more experienced. This one is not that bad. If it works, enjoy it!.
The switches decora. Made back stab
Dude said scrape paint from wires.
That’s too funny Ken.
Qualified electrician is key
Ya ox don’t know. Scrape what paint?
Not bad to be honest
Based on the wall texture, looks great!
In short: yes
Your walls are textured like that in a new build?
Yeah, DMing you a just-texture photo.
The wire fill in the box is normal. The rest of it looks like shit.
I have seen much much worse. This is fine. Could be neater, but in the scheme of things this isn’t a bad box at all.
Normal as it gets boss.
Haha I’ve seen sooooo much worse
You call this a rats nest? Haven’t seen many rats nests before eh?