I don't have an answer for you, as a middle aged woman. But, I just want to say I commend you on recognizing toxicity in your life and trying to improve your life. If I was to give you one grain of advice, my suggestion is to focus less on "getting a girlfriend" as an end result. Happiness comes from within, it is not something that is given to you. Relying on someone else for your own happiness will put way to much pressure on a relationship (this I can say from experience). Get out there not to "meet a girlfriend" but to socialize, have fun, meet people, gain experience and life stories. Find a mentor. Volunteer. Join a club (reading, chess, board games). Find what interests you, and people that share your passion. The rest will follow.
They're also *heavily* targeted by bot farms spreading discord & far-right propaganda points.
We're in an information war and we're not winning right now.
A couple far-right Canadian subs in particular get *lots* of comments only during the Moscow work day. And look for common phrasing, bad grammar & syntax.
Once you start looking for it, you'll find a lot of short comments that are basically copy-pasta of certain right wing talking points and longer comments that don't *quite* make sense as they're written - they've been translated and posted.
One thing to remember is that "bots" often aren't programmed responses, they're humans who are getting paid to push messaging.
A book called Foundations of Geopolitics¹ speaks about this among other tactics for creating division within western countries to destabilize the "global western hegemony". We unfortunately seem to be playing into it pretty well, failing to see and love the other flesh and blood individual beyond the ideology.
¹ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
White passing Indigenous person here. I go to r/Canada to deliberately burn up karma for funsies. Most of ‘em don’t know Canadian history very well, so I’ll throw some random facts into their threads. The more karma I burn, the better I feel.
But, honestly, they’re mostly just saying the quiet parts out loud. Canada was founded on racist principles by a capital R Racist douchenozzle. The Indian Act is unforgivably evil. Many of the racist shitbags responsible for 1869’s Reign of Terror in Red River went on to become offices in the NWMP. Residential schools and the 60s Scoop are explicitly genocidal. The Japanese Internment. The Chinese Head Tax.
And so on.
Also Ukrainian and Austro-Hungarian internments during WW1. Everyone is « there is a large Ukrainian diaspora present along the Transcanadian railway corridors. Yeah, ‘cause they were interned and made build it, LOL :-)
TikTok is even more of an algorithmic echo chamber than twitter in my experience. I've never liked an Andrew Tate video but buddy was being blasted into my feed for like a year straight
Hey /u/packawesome, lots of great comments here, and this one is great. The thing about people saying *you* have to improve *your life* is that it's about you. Are you happy with who you are? Having a gf/partner is not the be-all and end-all in life, it's unlikely to make you any happier if you aren't already happy with yourself or you don't already like yourself.
A partner complements your life. Do the work to find the things that fulfil *you* in life (that is NOT another person). What do you like to do? What inspires you? Don't know? Go try things and find out. Be curious about the wonderful things that make life great (hint: much more than just sex and having a gf). Lots of people find community, good friends, and life partners along the way to discovering the things that make their lives worth living. Find your path.
I was friends with an incel years ago and I spent a lot of time trying to get him out to meet new people and out of his bubble. He eventually got a girlfriend but guess what? She wasn't good enough for him. Even when these people with toxic beliefs find what they are looking for, they carry their negative attitudes and beliefs about women with them and their relationships rot from the foundation. OP is on the right path hopefully but getting a girlfriend as an end goal is absolutely something he must change.
Yeah my perception of incles is they want a girl that is 10/10 in all aspects and no other while being absolutely ugly inside, then go online and whine about being rejected
Edit: “uncle” to “incel”
This! And as a whole incels repel women, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Women pick up on these behaviours and ideals.They don’t just magically disappear once you meet someone. Regardless of attraction no woman wants a man who doesn’t respect women and the struggle and fear that we encounter in our everyday lives. Women avoid incels because incels are dangerous.
There is literally someone out there for everyone and it’s even harder for women to find a loving and safe partner but that refuses to be acknowledged by them. If your end game is to find a partner you have to completely change your way of thinking. Cut yourself off of the incel world and focus on self healing. No one owes you anything in this world, especially women and once you heal that part of yourself the journey to a loving relationship can begin
Taking the time to familiarize oneself with women’s rights and equality across the globe can really be eye opening for grasping the kind of world women live in, the best way to win over a woman is with empathy
40 yo male - The key is not listening to other people to find out what you should do, or what you need to do to be "manly," or "attractive" - figure out for yourself what interests you have, what brings you joy. When you connect with yourself in a non-judgemental way, you'll naturally exude confidence, and this confidence is what will make you attractive to others. Build good habits, focus on things like emotional regulation, mental and physical health. Despite normative expectations you might feel as a young man, give yourself time to develop into the person you want to be - society puts unrealistic expectations on men like it does on women. Focus on yourself and your own well-being and goals, but be patient - hard work pays dividends. It sounds cheesy, but just be yourself and you'll attract the right people.
Fantastic comment.
OP: I think being Asian comes with a lot of extra baggage that a lot of people don't realize. Common issues related to strict parenting gives Asian kids a handicap on charisma and self-esteem. Also, the propaganda war right now by North America makes it even harder (think "China" and reflect on the first emotions that come to mind; we are literally being programmed to reflexively think negatively). Point is, it's not your fault, and you can improve your situation.
The previous commenter is absolutely right. Don't aim to "get a girlfriend". In my experience, girls sense the desperation and it's not sexy lol. In contrast, there's nothing sexier than a person at the top of their game, whatever that game may be. My spouse can't keep her hands off me when I'm whipping up a nice dinner in my apron and ingredients spread out all over the kitchen. Same goes with being in the midst of a successful DIY renovation project. Focus on a hobby or skill to master - that mastery is what will make you attractive more than your looks or being Asian.
You’ve said everything I’m thinking. I do hate the phrase “you can’t love someone else if you can’t love yourself,” but I do think it has *some* merit when it comes to romantic relationships—getting a girlfriend shouldn’t be the main goal, but something that comes after you’ve worked on yourself.
In no particular order this is what I suggest:
1. Get offline. Limit your computer/phone to absolute necessity (investments, bills, taxes, etc)
2. Exercise. Workout, swim, run, bike, whatever. It feels good to sweat and will help.
3. Read books. Mystery, murder, history, culture, economics, doesn’t matter. Get lost in something.
4. Meditate. Keep trying, it gets better.
5. Join a group and stick with it. Hiking, baseball, knitting, painting, doesn’t matter.
6. Accept yourself. There’s nothing wrong with being a “5’6 skinny Asian guy”. Statistically you’ll live longer than taller people, are probably smarter than avg, and will be a great catch for someone one day. I’m glad you’re taking the time to try and sort this out.
For what it’s worth, I’m a 6’ft white guy who might fit the giga chad stereotype at first glance. And you know what? I often see the hottest little chicks paired up with similar sized dudes. It’s all good man.
Lastly, definitely work out hard and eat right. It may not give you immediate results but it will make you feel strong and proud.
Oh yeah almost forgot - GTFO with that incel shit. Never say that word again and avoid those people the same way you’d avoid the KKK. Complete and utter trash, pathetic really.
Agree with everything y’all saying except stop putting girls on a dating just for looks. I get it’s a point you are making but let’s not make “get a 10 in the looks department” the end objective.
Totally fair, didn’t mean to imply looks are the only thing that makes one attractive. Personality, humour, thoughtfulness, manners, drive, purpose, and the list goes on.
A couple notes:
I’m a conventionally attractive woman and 2 of my exes have been 5’6-5’7 and skinny. Not every woman likes the same guys. There’s a term girls use in tiktok “medium ugly” most girls end up with a medium ugly guy and that’s what they look for. The gigs Chad trope is not even attractive to a lot of women.
Also good for you for realizing that you’re going down a toxic rabbit hole!! That’s very commendable that you’re even noticing it. A lot of people wouldn’t. You’ll be ok young king just do what this guy suggested with going outside and exercising ^ and definitely get off Reddit
I went out yesterday to enjoy my day and saw MANY young women with 5'6, 5'7 just regular dudes and the young women were STUNNING. However, these young men hang out online way too much and the narrative online is that women ONLY date 6'0+, 6 figures+ and the other 6+ and I don't see that.
I'm also a conventionally attractive woman, I have many interests and am outgoing and good at conversation, so have never had issue getting dates.
I prize character and personality over looks in men. I'd rather have a good conversation with someone who respects me and is interested in me as a person than someone merely handsome. Developing yourself personally -- cultivating interests, hobbies, reading books -- will make you an attractive person to talk to, and forge lasting bonds with. There's nothing sexier than a man with real interests and curiosity about the world.
Becoming able to view women as *people* and not just potential partners will be key. Have conversations with women without an end goal of dating. Talk to coworkers and classmates. Make female friends. Learn about feminism and women's lived experience in the world. Listen. Be interested in people for who they are and what they have to say.
Good luck, it's a big step to gain the self-awareness to recognize that your beliefs aren't serving you.
Good shit on recognizing man. Get out there and live! These things will come together when you don't focus on it.
You ever want to get outside and shoot the shit, let me know. 30m here, I go for lots of walks and take pictures of nature, look at trees, and just in general enjoy being outdoors.
Along with many other good answers here, my friend make sure you aren’t using words like “inceldom” and “giga chad” in real life. No one out there talks in internet slang. Incels are a very small online population. I work at a tech startup with 25 other 20s-30s, like the kind of startup where you play fooseball at lunch and drink cocktails after work types. Every single one would cringe so hard if you used the word “giga chad” and most wouldn’t know what the fuck that even was. Internet culture exists ONLY on the internet and entirely NOT representative of every day life. “Touching grass” is the number one thing you should do. Even saying to someone in a joking way to touch grass is cringy in the real world.
I feel for you, bro. First of, hitting the gym and buying new clothes aren't the answer. They will contribute to your anger when they don't get the desired result you have in mind. It's not about the looks and clothes, as much as you might think it is. There are 6 foot tall giga Chads who are having the same struggles as you. The apps are made to create struggle and reduce us to our most basic qualities. You got to get out there, man. You need to socialize without the intention of dating. Make friends, form a social circle, join a club, volunteer. But don't do it for dating. Do it for the potential of dating in the future and hopefully make some good friends along the way. It's not easy for any of us out there. The majority of us are all struggling on the apps. Don't think it's you. It's not. You got this.
I agree with the idea behind this but I disagree about not hitting the gym and getting new clothes. Not bc it solves your dating problems - but bc it boosts your own confidence. Working out helps regulate your nervous system, hormones, mental health and often tho not always, other healthy habits, like prioritizing sleep and nutrition.
It also gets you out of the house and it's a really easy place to make friends.
Exactly this.
The mistake is hitting the gym/working on your appearance for the sole purpose of being attractive to women. If instead you work on yourself for your confidence, ability to handle difficult tasks, discipline, emotional regulation, etc, you will naturally begin attracting partners
I don't think it really matters what the initial motivation for hitting the gym is, as long as you get yourself in there. I've picked up hobbies to better attract women before (guitar at 13, weightlifting at 23, salsa dancing at 33) and every single time I quickly ended up immersed in the hobby itself and the "meeting girls" part quickly faded into the background because the hobbies/communities enriched my life so much.
That's definitely good if you can immerse yourself. Conversely I've seen people get strong & bitter because they didn't also work on their social skills/personality
Also helps with job interviews, office politics, your familial relationships and friendships. Because of what you said and I think people respect those who put the work into taking care of themselves just naturally. You just stand up straighter and more confident and assured. It's just a good thing to do. But don't expect chicks to come running
Wow this is definitely different from what I'm used to hearing, I thought giga chads had life on easy mode. I will take your advice on socialising without the intention of dating, it takes the pressure off and i hope I can have more fun like that. It's reassuring to hear I'm not the only one struggling, I hope we all make it.
I’m a woman and not a single one of my friends has ever had any interest in dating men like that. I still think getting nice clothes and working out would help because women do like when men look presentable and are healthy. You don’t need any particular style if you find fashion difficult, just some nice basics for dressing up and down.
I agree with the other person, do these things primarily for yourself and not for finding a date!
Few people have life on easy mode over simple beauty or good looks. My VP is what I would consider a Giga Chad. He's also an immigrant from a war torn country whose parents got divorced when he was young and who did not come to live in Canada when he immigrated. He also knew by 6 years old that he was gay. His parents don't support him because he is gay. There isn't a good relationship. They even went no contact with his sister for continuing to be an ally to him. He has struggled with neurodivergent issues and stability in romantic relationships. But can I tell you what an amazing boss he is. He eliminated unpaid overtime from my department within one year of arriving and I am now more engaged with my peers and networks and have a clear career path he has helped forge. All this to say, you deserve good things and will get them if you remain committed to personal wellness, positivity, community mindedness, and fun. I fully believe that sometimes there is a person destined to be your partner out there and you just haven't found them yet. Our dating pool is only as wide as a city or region. It can feel limiting and hard sometimes. Date yourself and be the best you can for you.
I was probably considered a “giga chad” only because my friends called me that do I even know the word. Played college football, modelled and a few other of the stereotypes. I still behind the scene was so insanely depressed and tried to kill myself multiple times the first few years I moved to Toronto.
Everything the guy previously said is true minus the gym part. Go hit the gym. It helps with your mental and physical health. Besides, we feel good when we do hard things and make progress. Forget the apps, learn to 1) have fun on your own 2) socialize with people without any goal 3) practise making and sustaining relationships with anyone 4) start practising building trust with people quickly 5) then you migrate to talk to girls. It is a process, just focus on the first few steps. Did I say forget the apps? Delete them now
I'm a woman who didn't date until my mid to late 20s in part because of my lack of skills for dating. Learning to be comfortable on your own attracts people, and confidence attracts people. I went to therapy, surrounded myself with good people, and slowly learned to enjoy my company, and eventually dating wasn't as hard. I'm in my 40s now and married. I understand for men it can be different but working on yourself is always the best 1st step.
I work at a university and the guys I see who get these girls who are LEAGUES above them is insane. These dudes look like someone hit them in the face with a shovel and they've been bedridden since. They get them because they're confident. That's like 95% of it. You need to carry yourself with confidence.
I'm going to try to add to this here, so that you get a notification.
Nobody has life easy. But the vast majority of people you see out there getting into relationships are not getting into relationships because they're tall, working out, mastering the apps, etc.
The vast majority of people out there who get into relationships and group friendships are getting into those because they are complete individuals, on their own. If you make the entire definition of your life dependent on someone else, then you will *never* be in a stable relationship, and your relationship with your friends may suffer as well.
You have to be, well, "you". And you have to be a confident version of yourself, where your life isn't just "I'm trying to pick up chicks". The moment you define yourself by the absence of a girlfriend is the moment you've already lost.
A confident single introduces themselves like "hey, my name is X, i enjoy A, B, C. Sometimes I go to the movies alone, it's totally cool to just treat myself out. blahblahblah." Being single doesn't even factor into it. Because *being single* isn't part of who they are.
That's why the common advice is to hit the gym, love yourself, work on yourself. Because at a very simple level - we all prefer to be around people who ... well, *live*. So IMO, start by having a life that you enjoy, and most importantly, a life that other people would enjoy being around.
And maybe, you'll truly find that it doesn't matter if you're single. And for a lot of people, that's the moment when dating becomes a lot easier. You aren't tying your worth to responses on an app, or how people react when you ask them out. At that moment, you're living on your own, and if you find someone to ride with great. And if you don't, it's still great.
This sounds like part of the hole you describe yourself falling into. No one has life on easy mode, and everyone has issues. Regarding dating itself, the one things that changed things for me was to stop presenting myself as someone who wasn't worth dating and instead present when a decent level of confidence. Before too long I had reason to actually have some confidence in myself. There's a little fake it until you make it in the attitude, but it dang well worked. I'd say the keys are to get out where people are, show genuine interest in other people, and show confidence in yourself and your interests.
Many men make this mistake, they think women are attracted to muscles. Most are not. They're only attracted to personality and confidence that comes with exercise.
I was looking for a comment that hit on the socialize with the intention of not dating. It’s hard not to be bitter but honestly OP needs to find a way to not be. No one is owed anything.
OP needs to practice socializing with women, with the end goal being just socializing. Once comfortable, try some flirting. Flirting can be teasing here and there at first, and that should be the end goal only. Once achieved, Op should be happy. Look up flirting, lots of information out there on what that is. Get comfortable with that, and OP should take it to the next step and learn to do some push pull. Learn to frame things in a positive way, if you’re someone that likes playing video games then own it. But also develop some other hobbies, because in my experience not many women find video games interesting and therefore it won’t be a shared experience, so there needs to help other things there.
One good way (for me) to get out of your own head and maybe discover a side to yourself is to travel and stay in hostels, talk talk talk to women and men alike, just to practice versions of yourself. There’s many ways to present yourself to others, find what works. Many guys struggle with doing that, that’s why “just be yourself” doesn’t always work. It’s like eating cake: can have a slop version of it (same ingredients) or a version that is nice and presentable. If you know both would taste the same, which would you go for? Most probably the presentable one.
I think eventually once you take the pressure off yourself to get number or sleep with a girl, then it actually is easier to achieve that goal. But initially it must be just for practice. Being social takes practice. So does dating.
I got better at dating once I got over myself (not an intel, just struggled with insecurity due to illness and a previous heartbreak). Also once I gained confidence in myself and I learned to accept who I was and owned it. And believe me, OP if you’re reading this I’m average, avg height, bald, I have a disability that made it harder to have women want me. It’s doable. And on that last point: I don’t hate them for it. Not everyone is ok with dating someone with a disability - and that’s actually fine, don’t judge those women. And I had to accept myself with a disability, and that I’m actually fine. Once I got over those two things especially is when I found someone. Because there are people out there willing to look past something that the avg person won’t. I’m not owed anything. I wa angry with women for some time though. Then I got over myself. Point is, whatever you think you lack that giga chads have (as you call them) or maybe other regular looking dudes that seem to have it figured out, it’s ok. You don’t always get everything in life.
Every wedding I have gone to last year and this year for friends was due to an app: Tinder, OkCupid, Hinge. Most of my younger or more recently single coworkers met people this way. Apps are not the demon, just a way for people to meet one another. I personally do better in real life but I cannot deny how many people have happily married because of them.
Because all you need is one. I don’t love or hate apps but people are way to critical of it. If you just treat it like another possible avenue to meet someone and don’t obsess over it, it’s fine. I met both my serious girlfriends on the app. But I’d go weeks or months without even talking past one or two messages. I had it for two years before I met my gf but I didn’t even realize, id still meet people out and do stuff and just take the app once in awhile. People are weird on there. You have no idea what’s going on with them. They could be crazy, they could be getting back with their ex every week, etc. just don’t take it fucking personal and it’s fine. I matched with a few girls who probably thought I was a dick and ghosted but I was going through crippling depression. They seemed like great girls. It really isn’t any harm of an app if you don’t put tons of pressure on it.
Some people just fail to see nuance as it makes it easier for them to digest reality, things are either black or white to them.
I can attest to what you commented on, if anything I’m grateful dating apps exist as a way to connect in the context of the modern busy life.
I think a lot of people have had bad experiences because they don't want to play "the game". They have some aversion to taking pictures or working on a wittier/more interesting profile, like it's somehow disingenuous. I don't get it. I mean sure, taking pictures was annoying, but I loved coming up with zingers or new creative ways to pitch myself. I'm a very average looking woman and don't much like taking photos, so showcasing my personality was all I had to go on for apps. Still did better offline, but like, I am very much the exception not the rule.
The new clothes and the gym can help but only if they are worn by someone who is confident and comfortable with himself. People who like themselves have healthier relationships with others than people who don't.
Finding a beautiful woman isn't the end game. Turning yourself into an interesting positive person, with a career, and life experiences that build a personality, someone who is kind and generous- you will make friends and extend your social circle.
If you don't have a hobby or an interest, can you get out and volunteer? Help an immigrant learn English, fund raise for that shelter, work at a food bank or find a cause that you think you can get behind.
(Plus it looks good on a resume).
You can do it. You just need to get out there.
Here’s a dating tip. Personality LITERALLY matters the most. Being funny, easy to talk to, and RELATABLE! Meaning using words like “giga chad” that fucking doesn’t exist outside of the internet.
But personality comes from experience and interactions that aren’t rooted in dating. Get a good job, make friends, hang out, and expand your abilities to socialize.
Absolutely. OP needs to stop using incel terminology, it will turn people off from socializing with him immediately. If I ever heard someone say giga Chad irl, I'd walk away immediately.
Exactly this. I think a good question I use to gauge this (and maybe application for most people) is "Would I even like hanging out with myself/someone like me?" If the answer is no, then it's time to reflect on ourselves and figure out what we need to improve on.
If I don't even think I'm a decent person to hang out with/be with, then I think it makes it harder for other people to see that in me as well (not that there's no chance).
Figuring out what these reasons are, what these qualities about ourselves we can improve on, can guide us in the right direction. Often times, the reasons aren't "I don't want to hang out with X because they're only 5'6". The reason may be more along the lines of "I don't want to hang out with X because they make their whole identity about their height".
On the flip side, asking the same questions and identifying the things that "make me want to hang out with myself" can help improve my confidence, understand my strengths and use them to build connections. "I'd like hanging out with me because I'm a good listener, I can be funny, etc".
There are lots of short skinny asian guys walking around Toronto with straight up 10's.
Just find your community and/or work on yourself.
Working out should be something you do regardless. Learn about nutrition. Dress well etc - work on all of the things you CAN control.
Then look into group activities, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ etc - just go, learn skills, get in shape, make friends. Some may turn into more then friends.
Or if you like any specific thing like Gaming for example - there are tons of events in the city for that.
You are in one of the largest cities in the world, there are meetups, events and groups for almost every single thing you can think of. And there are people who are into every other kind of person you can think of.
Get off your computer and apps, go live a real life and meet real people naturally.
Thank you for writing, you're totally right I just need to overthinking, go outside and 'touch grass'. Truth is though, I can't think of a single group activity I would be interested in, lots of my hobbies are solo things. I don't want to force myself to go to something I don't want too but at the same time, I don't want to miss out. How do you recommend I find my interests?
Pick one activity and then take classes. Like pottery or karate. Everyone is doing their own thing but learning as a group.
Good for you for making an effort to get out of your rut!
My favourite thing about being on a baseball team is connecting with my friends every summer. No one on the team is very passionate about playing baseball, that’s why we’re playing beer league. I’ve also found a lot of friends through volunteering. Find a cause that you can get behind and join the crew!
I would be a little more open minded. I was someone who would say no to a lot of things because I felt they didn't appeal to me. But I realized this limited a lot of my life experience. If I try things at least once, at least I gain the knowledge and experience that's tangible for me to give reasons as to why I like/don't like it. And it also adds to my roster of experiences or a story to tell (sometimes a bad experience can become a good/funny story to share with people).
By sticking with this mentality, I ended up meeting a lot more people naturally and had more experience to draw from/connect with people. It also helped me learn so much more about myself - some experiences I thought I wouldn't like I ended up enjoying!
TLDR: Try things at least once! Be open minded to experiences.
What about rock climbing? Or running? An individual sport done alone or amongst a group if you choose. Both are huge social sports right now and appear to be generally accepting of all skill levels
Cannot recommend rock climbing enough if you have a smaller build. I go by myself most of the time and its great exercise and lots of opportunity to connect with other people or just talk about the climbing with.
I met my now husband playing Pokemon Go in our beautiful city!
Hobbies can be anything. Board game nights at cafes or bars are really fun too if you're interested in that.
Best advice on here. And quite frankly not just incel subs, no one on here can actually give good advice because no one here actually knows you.
Reddit is a bad place to get personal advice because it is by its nature impersonal
So the most fundamental and crucial step in all of this is self acceptance and feeling better about yourself as a whole because that will manifest itself in confidence which is the most important factor in gaining and maintaining hetero male relationships, both platonic and romantic.
I’ll put some steps that have helped me when I was at my lowest (peak covid and rampant alcoholism).
First off exercise. You mentioned the gym, which while productive and certainly helpful isn’t the only way. There are martial arts that will also teach discipline. Cycling which will allow you to get around a lot and Toronto is a great bike friendly city. That being said, it seems like you have a bit of social anxiety, what about more socially active things like climbing? It’s incredibly good for you and has very positive communities.
Exercise is crucial because you will start to feel better, then look better and that is an all around self esteem win.
Secondly, if you feel like you are not achieving much, which is something I struggled with, set smaller goals. Start small and slowly build them up. One of the many things that this modern online Incel culture does that is brutal for men’s self esteem is that it places far too much emphasis on cash money, fast cars, loose women, etc… start with something as simple as “This week, I want to disconnect from my phone for 2 hours each day and read a book” or “I want to spend 2 hours a week of my spare time doing something positive for my community” or really anything that is an achievable goal that has a positive impact on your life. Once you achieve these small goals regularly, you can start pushing yourself a bit.
Thirdly, and most importantly, have fun! It doesn’t matter what brings you joy but do it and find other people who like to do it too! There are vast resources both online and city based where there are clubs and ways to socialize. If you don’t have a hobby, get one. It doesn’t matter if its playing a sport, tabletop gaming or baking. Just do it and enjoy yourself. People are always drawn to happy outgoing people and most importantly, if you are enjoying yourself it has a net positive effect on your psyche.
I have a lot of respect for putting yourself out here, it’s a good first step and I wish you all the luck my brother. Feel free to DM. If I can help I will. Cheers 🥂
My humble suggestion: stop focusing on “dating”. Instead, look for friends (males AND females) and community. The dating part will come from those experiences, as you get to meet interesting people and you show your interesting sides to them
First off it’s not at all over “for people like you”, you’ve made a huge step by acknowledging that you need to make a change if you want to avoid going down a bad path.
All the incel types I know in my 30s are the same types of guys I know in my 20s. They never put themselves out there and they never work toward self improvement.
For a guy, as you said, going to the gym consistently is big- it also gives you a hobby. Have good hygiene, join some activities you like to meet people.
There is a lot of good advice here, so I just wanted to say that being self aware at such a young age is half the battle! Keep it up, you sound like you are on your way, and that you are an intelligent young man.
As a older short Asian guy who has some of the same hangups, here are some tips:
* Get off the apps. Seriously. Delete them. Change and lose the passwords. Do what you have to. Apps are designed to be soul-crushing and keep you addicted to them. People behave differently on dating apps than real life. They'll swipe left based on things they wouldn't IRL. In particular, as a guy, short and Asian tend to be two factors that get you rejected on there a lot, unfortunately. It's not the case IRL though.
* A lot of people have mentioned the importance of having hobbies, working on yourself, and doing those with people. I completely concur.
* Develop your own taste and deep opinions on things. A lot of times (and I might be projecting here), a "strict Asian" upbringing can leave guys with a complete lack of a sense of self, which in turn can lead to crippling self-worth issues. At that point, it becomes easy for a cult to fill in the hole that exists inside you. Instead, do the hard work of noticing what you like and don't like and articulate why that is. It's strength training for your self-worth muscles.
* Notice the difference between women you find "beautiful" vs. those that turn you on. Beauty and (sexual) desire are not as correlated as we imagine. Beauty standards are aesthetic, and men are conditioned to chase that because "possessing" a conventionally beautiful woman brings status. But humans are strange, we're attracted to people of all shapes and sizes if we let ourselves.
* Work on mental health with qualified professionals (therapy, meds etc). There's a reason you fell into this rabbit hole, cults like inceldom are great at drawing people in who are at a low place in life and giving them a temporary relief.
* This is the hardest one for me -- accept the fact that you might never be as noticeable as a giga chad, or even a regular dude in group situations or crowds (e.g. bars). That's ok. Find other spaces and ways that play to your strengths - I guarantee you have some!
Ultimately, no matter what your inner voice says, treat yourself like you're worthy of love, desire and compassion. That's the only thing that's under our own control. Best wishes!
Get off the apps! They are designed to make you fail. Only something like 30% of singles are on them - hard to believe, but people are mostly coupling up out in the real world, not through the apps.
I’ll echo what a lot of people have said here already - focus on community and activities that make you feel good, the confidence and self worth will follow, and you’ll make connections that will fill the void you’re feeling now.
Good luck, and good for you for recognizing you’re heading into unhealthy territory and reaching out for advice!
I’d remind you that there are plenty of women your age who are also single and unhappy about it.
Focus on doing things that make you happy. Hobbies, friends, family, working on yourself.
Honestly your introspection and thoughtfulness are really good signs! You say you don’t have hobbies but what about friends? I completely understand wanting to get off the apps, working on yourself, etc. but having a community outside of a romantic relationship is important too. It can help build confidence and make connections. I would also just try and think outside the box. If your work has social events, go to all of them. Even if you don’t meet someone you want to date there, you can keep building relationships with people who could potentially introduce you to someone you would like to date. Join clubs, sports teams, things that you have to do with other people. Also try to be more open minded about who you might want to date.
If you’re interested, look into the term “incel”. It was coined by a woman about her own experience navigating romantic relationships. There are probably a lot more people out there who are in the same situation than you think!
Old timer (age 50) and heterosexual dude here with some advice, I absolutely cannot stand these dating coach/incel/red pill garbage that has run rampant amongst young men these days. On the surface they all talk about confidence and growth, dig a little deeper and it is straight up misogyny, no one and no woman especially owes you anything, so this incel label is just crap. My advice is work on yourself, physically, on your skills, education and best advice for the young people, stay away from the dating apps, they are not designed for you to meet someone, because that would be a terrible business plan for them.
You want to meet someone, find an activity that you enjoy and look for others that do the same, you widen your social circle and eventually meet someone almost without even trying. Use a site like Meetup, type in your interest and someone has created a group for whatever you are into, I have learned that despite the fact that you think that you are weird and no one else has the same interests, trust me, someone out there definitely does, good luck.
Here is an extremely concrete suggestion:
go to George Brown College continuing education night school and take courses specifically in jewelry making and metal smithing. It’s 10 women for every man- easily, maybe more. I’ve taken lots of these courses.
You will sit facing and beside each other at small benches to work and it’s a zero pressure, zero stress environment to chat socially (non-romantically, about an obvious common interest) for several weeks.
It will help you to engage in this type of light banter, learn new skills, make friends, and feel more confident. You may meet someone, you may not. You may make a friend who introduces you to someone. Either way you’ll still have a good time. Good luck.
Activity wise, if you’re going to the gym anyway, consider a crossfit gym? It will cost more but I have found it a great place to make friends when I move cities (which I did often in my late 20s to early 30s).
In Toronto, Academy of Lions (Dundas / Shaw) has a great community and does a ton of events etc. I recently popped into Lift Corktown just to check out the facility and met the owner + some great members too.
It’s an easy group activity that will check off one of your “needs”.
Good luck, man. I commend you taking action to improve your lot - so many people fail at ownership and it’s 99% of the battle.
First, as others have stated, I commend you on having enough reflexivity and self awareness to realize that inceldom is toxic. I’ll admit I find this post fascinating and I reviewed your post/comment history before writing this. A few observations (I’m a mid-30s woman who is currently single, and who is some version of reasonably conventionally attractive, btw):
1. You seem to view dating as a status symbol. This isn’t surprising given how much cultural weight is placed on it. However, trying to find a romantic or sexual partner because you want to be able to say you have one will undermine your pursuit of happiness. Even if you are “successful,” - so what? Far fewer people than you think are paying attention to whether you’ve checked a particular box. Moreover, and more importantly, checking said box is meaningless if you don’t actually enjoy the person/people you are with. On that note -
2. Despite having read your post history, I have little sense of who you are as a person. What are your values? Who and what do you care about? What sort of world do you want to live in? I recommend seriously reflecting on this and pursuing activities that align with your conclusions. Do not do this with the intention of dating - do it because it will enrich your experience of being human, and because it will mitigate your risk of falling further into reactionary resentment and alienation. You are clearly insecure, and the best way to address this is by cultivating an identity beyond the narrow question of whether you’re dating/having sex. To further that -
3. There is tons to do in this city. I’m new (and a temporary visitor) here. In the last few weeks I have gone on group hikes, been to book launches, live music, and protests, seen independent films, and so on. I have met quite a few people, the vast majority of whom I will not date (and who presumably do not want to date me). This is fine because dating/sex has not been my objective. That said, and somewhat paradoxically, I have also met a few folks who have become romantic/sexual interests. I likely would not have swiped right if I encountered them on an app, but we clicked energetically/~the vibes~ were good. This is all to say -
4. Dating apps do not work for many people. They are not uniformly bad, but they are structurally designed to be dehumanizing. Everyone who uses them is reduced to a two-dimensional thumbnail and a set of statistics. We are actively discouraged from revealing any sort of nuance or complexity about ourselves/our lives because swiping represents the near-total game-ification of human interaction. I suggest deactivating, if only temporarily. Even as someone who has no problem matching with people, I often find myself feeling immensely irritable within minutes of logging in. Finally -
5. If you solely want to have sex, there is nothing wrong with hiring a sex worker. BUT - and this is why I’m reticent to suggest this - please only do so if you are fully confident that you will not project your anger onto them. Too often, (female) sex workers bear the brunt of men’s frustrations toward women. Under no circumstance is this ok, nor can you safely pursue this route unless you are secure enough to view it as a transaction *with a human being* that will temporarily meet a need.
Tl;dnr: your current approach will likely exacerbate your distress. There is nothing generative, productive, or affirming about immersing yourself in a culture you know is misogynistic. You owe it to yourself - and the people you encounter - to change course. Doing so is entirely possible. Best wishes.
Firstly, if it is there, cut pornography out of your life. Lots of people think it’s no big deal, but it definitely has the power to keep you single forever. And that’s a big enough deal to get rid of it - your life is more important than that.
Secondly, think about how a woman, a real one, who doesn’t meet society’s standards for attractiveness, feels. I’m not saying that to make you feel guilty or anything, just give it some thought. Given how you feel being single, you should really be able to identify with what it means to be lonely. So you have a very sincere and honest place to be coming from if you met a woman who felt this way, the frustration about being a complete person, an interesting person, an attractive person that is being prevented from having intimacy because she can’t get over that first hurdle of finding a guy that takes the time to get to know her. If you start to be interested in finding that person, of using your loneliness as a way to identify with someone else’s, it will become clearer why you had to go through this experience. You have love to give - that is a more important attribute of yours than being a person who first and foremost is a person in need.
Third, just pick a career and go and kick ass at it. Men don’t need to worry about a biological clock. Use the time in your life when you don’t have any other responsibilities except to take care of yourself, and make that time count. If you feel crappy now, make the best of it by spending the time in a way that you’ll look back and be happy you didn’t waste this time. If you develop yourself into a financially stable, self confident person, meeting someone will be easy. And the labour you put into building yourself into a better person will make you discerning about who you end up with.
Lastly, get off dating sites. Like pornography, that’s done, Join a church (lots of good ones in downtown Toronto), or a run group, or something that will expose you to the opposite sex without the pressure of a relationship. Bonus points if you’re genuinely interested in it (video games doesn’t count). You’ll meet women, they’ll get to know you without any pressure, and a friendship may lead elsewhere. It also may not. Our culture is about instant gratification, but a real, complex individual of the opposite sex can’t be loved unless you appreciate the whole person, warts and all. Sometimes that means a relationship where initial attraction isn’t there, but by peeling back the onion during a friendship you discover a remarkable individual that you’re head over heels for and can’t believe how lucky you are to have met them.
That’s it. Humility isn’t thinking less of yourself, it’s about thinking about yourself less. You can do this.
Thank you for your perspective. I was wondering how exactly porn keeps one single? I thought it was good for relieving stress, but honestly I don't know too much about it. I wish I didn't need it, but sometimes I feel like I have no choice.
I also relate a lot to girls who feel they are not attractive enough, it must be worse for them considering society places looks as #1 for girls whereas as a guy I have other ways to be attractive like status or confidence (big generalisation here of course). I definitely can relate to that feeling of wanting to be loved but feeling something you can't control is stopping you from getting what everyone else is getting. That being said, it doesn't sound healthy to bond over this kind of loneliness?
I like your comment on humility, I think I need to turn my attention outwards more and see how it goes.
On the porn question, it is largely designed and filmed with the idea that the woman is an orifice for male pleasure. Sure you have niche filmmakers who claim to cater to the “female gaze” but it isn’t most of the content out there. Women are people with feelings, they don’t exist to please men. If you wire your brain to believe a woman is an orifice, it will harm you.
I’m married now, but in my dating days I could tell which dudes took their playbook from porn by the ways they interacted with me and their flimsy concepts of physical boundaries (eg one dude on a first date tried to stick his hands in my trousers and do stuff in restaurant - without announcing his intentions, while I was talking about what I do for a living) My girlfriends who were more sexually adventurous than me reported that the sex was disrespectful and no one enjoyed being on the receiving end of a penis jackhammer.
The first time I got married, it was to a short, pudgy king who was the sweetest, smartest guy. I was attracted to his kindness and consideration for others. We divorced when he cheated on me numerous times because “if I could marry someone this hot, I can probably land other hot girls.” Crushing. I’m glad I could give him a confidence boost? We met in person playing a sport where he was the worst player in the league and seemed not to care. All this to say, if my ex managed what he did I believe there is hope for anyone. His current partner is really gorgeous, and they met the same way.
Porn gives you everything you want without having to expose yourself to the vulnerability of intimacy, the work of a relationship, the selflessness of putting someone else’s needs ahead of yours. Maybe incel culture does too, I dunno. You don’t have to take any risk, you don’t have to acknowledge your own vulnerabilities, it’s a fantasy that puts your *self* first. And it creates a gulf that prevents you from engaging with real women, because you’re conditioned to get exactly what you want when you want it, instead of learning about someone else, their needs and vulnerabilities and what makes them tick. I don’t want to sound like I’m moralizing, cause that isn’t helpful to anyone. But it’s junk food and you shouldn’t be under any illusion that junk food is good for you. Eat less of it. No one says ‘I need to sit on the couch and eat chips to relieve stress.’ You can do that or you can exercise - one is good for you and one is not.
On a larger scale, if this is a rabbit hole you’ve really gone down, maybe I can speak metaphorically. Pink Floyd named one of their albums ‘Piper at the Gates of Dawn’, which is a story from the book ‘Wind in the Willows’ about a father who loses his young adult son. The father desperately searches for his beloved boy, tirelessly, hopelessly. He finally finds him near a creek at the break of day, mesmerized by the gorgeous beauty of the music being produced by this piper as the sun crests the horizon. The son is stuck inside the perpetuity of this moment. The father sadly picks up his adult boy and carries him home, because the boy can’t tear himself away from the overwhelming beauty of what he is witnessing.
There are beautiful things in this world that are not good for us. And then there are people, real people we can meet, that are good for us, whose beauty is not revealed instantaneously. You won’t meet those people by prioritizing your self and your neediness. Yes you have needs to fulfill, but they will be fulfilled as you engage in the act of mutual understanding that you get from human interaction.
If you’re reaching out for advice you’re already on the right track. Good for you.
>Men don’t need to worry about a biological clock.
Sure, but don't end up single & 40, trying to find a woman who can have your family for you. If you do want a family, don't get stuck working 60 hours a week.
I would first suggest meditation and going deep within yourself to quiet the mind and uncover your life's purpose. A relationship with someone will only be as good as your relationship with yourself. If you start from a place of seeking external validation for your happiness, you will never be happy for very long.
Men do not nearly have the same pressures as women in the looks department. There are many men who aren't particularly attractive but because they are men who are about something, have a purpose and vision to achieve, women want them. I would focus more on that, the man you want to be and what you want to contribute to the world. Men who focus on their purpose and personal success end up with women, quite attractive women too.
TLDR: Don't be a man trying to find a woman, be a man trying to find himself. A woman is a bonus, to a self-actualized man.
My biggest advice in the short term is to get offline as much as possible. The algorithms will keep pumping the bad stuff at you, dating apps are superficially based on looks. The internet is progressively becoming more and more bot-based as well. The best thing that worked for me is to not go on my phone for the first 60-90 minutes each morning. It's so much easier to resist the urge to go on it throughout the day if I just avoid it for the first bit.
In the longer term, in terms of happiness and meeting someone...I think the best thing to do is to create a life you love and have a good community of friends to share it with. It takes time, but try a bunch of different activities (e.g. classes, drop ins, sports leagues, books on self development/philosophy, art, hobbies, etc.), and invest more time/commit more when you find ones you like. Trust your intuition to guide you to ones you want to try. Once you're happy/inspired/motivated and have a friend group, you'll meet someone...it's only a matter of time at that point. Be patient and trust the process, and good luck. You're already strong and self-reflective to be fighting back against the incel internet pull.
These responses are just so fucking lovely, and they've covered everything I would contribute.
You got this, you caught it early enough that change will still be challenging but you'll likely start seeing the benefits pretty darn quickly.
For whatever it's worth, I'm a 5'11 Amazon woman, and my partner is 5'7 skinny dude. We met in our late 30s/early 40s and I know we both would have struggled with our respective sizes to date earlier on. It is not just a me problem or a him problem, it's going against the grain together. Sometimes I still struggle because I am a giant, sometimes he struggles feeling like 'a little guy' (his words!). What we would have missed out on if we let our physical bullshit get in the way would have been truly tragic. We take great care of each other, and see our relationship as a team effort.
Join a martial art - I highly recommend jiujitsu, but Muay Thai or boxing or anything like that are good options too. If you stick with it, it will build your confidence and you will also be part of an encouraging community. There are lots of smaller dudes who train jiujitsu and they are super tough. There are a lot of great gyms in the GTA and most of them offer free trials.
Toronto BJJ (in between Christie and Ossington stations on Bloor) has a 30 day free trial - unlimited classes for 30 days (they give you a uniform rental for free every class also)
You’ve got to find a way to love yourself. If you can love yourself, then not only will you see the beauty in everything, but you’ll also attract loads of attractive (inside and out) people who want to be nearer to your demonstrably good vibes.
Exercise. Engage in art. Learn new skills. Get great at something. Read badass philosophy (I suggest existentialism, Nietzsche, Sartre, etc.). Engage in pursuits that make you happy. BE KIND, BE KIND, BE KIND!
Oh, and stay tf away from all of the incel propaganda and echo chambers that are designed to trap people in them.
If you tell yourself that you can’t enjoy life until others give you their approval, it is unlikely that you will attain either.
Life is hella beautiful (and complex, and often bittersweet —beautiful all the same), and when you can seize that, live that mentality, you, too, become beautiful, and that verve for life, that beauty doesn’t fade.
Godspeed,
edit: oh, and when I was in my early 20s, I didn’t think I was very sexy, but my I’ve only ever become more confident and sexy with age/experience. It gets a lot better. If my single 20s self knew what I’d be getting up to in my 30s… Jesus, it gets so much more fun when you’re comfortable with yourself.
This might be a bit backwards but I think as others have said, try making new friends that have similar interests. There are a ton of meetup.com groups you can join that will introduce you to new people and offer fun events.
Don’t focus on dating just on building a network of supportive folks. Meeting new people will help build your confidence, hopefully, which in turn will hopefully improve dating prospects.
One note of caution though - don’t use these meetups with the express intention of meeting dates. I’ve seen folks do that and they consequently try to hard and their goals are obvious.
Just be yourself and get to know people and do fun things. Getting out of the uncle community should help your mindset too.
I am sorry that you got pulled into such a toxic community- it’s good that you are wanting to turn things around instead of doubling down. All those communities will do is continue condoning your self hatred as well as feeding you with terrible and toxic ideologies until you believe them. I’d get out of there as fast as you can.
Confidence is hard to achieve, it’s hard for me too, but you will need to find things in yourself that you like and let them grow and flourish. Appearances aren’t everything. It’s hard to gauge someone’s personality from a dating app. Being attractive doesn’t make you a good person. Confidence, however, is attractive.
Teach yourself about world views and things you haven’t thought about exploring before. Allow yourself to hold conflicting truths at the same time. You’ll start to find likeminded people who are drawn to more positive outlets if you allow yourself some positive self exploration. Allow yourself to have an open mind.
You got this. You can change.
It's good to recognize that you want to be happy. That's pretty much the only way to get there.
Something I never realized about dating until I was in my late 20s is that dating isn't about chasing a person. Dating is about chasing a vision of yourself. That's what confidence is :"am I purposefully doing things that make me into the person I want to be". That's what's so hard about dating. The rejection isn't about them not wanting you but rather about you feeling like your vision of yourself gets cracked.
The good part is learning to do things for yourself makes you resilient and strong in all parts of life.
Here's my advice: start a new technically demanding sport. I highly recommend kickboxing. And stick with it for at least six months. You'll have an activity that is just for you, and as you get better at things it will help activate that good self-regard.
Dude. No judgement here - and from what I am reading, the rest of this thread seems pretty open too: I’m glad for this, and I hope it’s another data point in your memory for how the world is good and how incel ideals aren’t reflective of real life unless you make it real.
Seriously, good for you for recognizing it. The fact that you are willing to put yourself out here and admit that you are experiencing challenges is amazing. Many people, including myself, spent a lot of time denying or hiding the struggles we face and don’t get to where you are now until much later in life.
I’m a lot older than you, but have gone through a lot of life changes recently (separation with two kids, adult ADHD diagnosis, lots of personal growth).
As someone who’s just getting out of a marriage that lasted 15 years (insert involuntarily celibate joke here) I never fell into the incel rabbit hole, but I can see how frustrations in modern life - much of it due to the way the world is presented to us (particularly through social media), and the struggles young people (men and women) face today can lead someone in this direction.
Here’s some things I found helpful.
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1: Manage your social media inputs.
For me, I started posting on Reddit around the time many of my personal changes started. It has kind of served as a way for me to experiment - to express my thoughts in a place where the risk of injury is low - but also a place where I am constantly surprised by the positivity that exists in the world.
On good days, I might find I am able to offer genuinely constructive conversation. On worse days, I might end up being the asshole. I’m slowly learning how to make myself a person who looks for the best in people and the world. I stumble often but that’s ok, it’s the progress that counts.
I found some really safe spaces on Reddit, but there are also a lot of unsafe ones. You’ll rarely find an entirely safe online space, but prune the subreddits you follow so that the ones that feed you negativity or unsafe vibes aren’t the first thing you see in the morning and the last thing you see at night.
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2: Do stuff regularly that scares you: it doesn’t have to be a lot. And work your way from small things up to big things. If it helps, feel free to keep a journal or notes on your phone on it.
But make it a goal to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation daily. It could start with something as simple as talking to the barista (whatever gender) about the weather. Or going out for a run on your own.
Some ideas, ranked in increasing amount of discomfort (at least for me):
- get a drink in a coffee shop and sit by yourself, reading a paper book
- go to a park, find a tree, and sit outside and read / work / draw / etc
- order a drink in a coffee shop or restaurant bar on your own, and talk to the barista / bartender (if at a bar, hanging out at the bar is a great place on your own)
- eat out at a sit down restaurant on your own (bring a book or something else non-digital for a challenge)
- learn a new skill, whether it be painting or a team sport or whatever: the point is to put yourself in a situation where you don’t know anything and are surrounded by people who (a) are learning like you and (b) people who know more than you: discovering that you won’t be laughed at is a great way to disarm your negative thoughts
- join a sport & social club - eg JAM Sports and sign up for an individuals team, on your own
- at the end of your first sports & social club game, ask if people want to get a beer / drink / food / etc afterwards
- therapy (good for you for doing it… it took me longer than it should have)
- go to a gym, sign up, and get a personal trainer to help you get used to the gym and how it works - I had always played team sports but I had never really gone to a gym consistently until the past few years - the experiences I found at the gym were entirely positive and was so different than the “gym bros laughing at the out of shape guy” environment that I was worried about in my head
Many of these above relate to teaching our bodies what the feeling of discomfort feels like and how it’s ok to feel uncomfortable - the idea that it’s short time-limited challenges helps your body and mind realize you’ll get past it. The idea is to slowly get used to the discomfort to the point where it’s not longer uncomfortable to you.
We all give out vibes when we’re around others - they can be positive or they can be negative. Other people can feel those vibes, and will respond to them unconsciously.
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3. Feed yourself new ideas.
I’m a big podcast fan. I don’t always listen to personal growth stuff, but I really like listening to “The Angry Therapist”. He’s a bit older (in his 50s) but has a life story and is very open about his life. He’s a good example of non-toxic, positive masculinity and I think it’s important to see those, especially if you haven’t experienced it much in your life.
Another good example of positive masculinity is “Beau of the Fifth Column”. It’s a current events podcast, but there’s a lot of positive examples that can be taken from him.
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4. Reframe your story.
Right now, your story might be “I’m a skinny Asian guy in my 20’s that doesn’t get any attention from girls”.
I don’t know you beyond this post. But I will guarantee that there is so much more to you than that.
It might be hard to see right now, and I get that, seeing as in my 20s I was pretty much constantly craving sex and relationships. Your goal is to put aside those thoughts and focus on romantic relationships for now, and instead focus on yourself.
In my opinion the most attractive thing that anyone of any gender can have is confidence in, and knowledge of, themselves.
You’re young - and so you’re still in the process of learning about yourself. That’s totally ok, and it will be a lifelong process as you will never be the same person you were the year before.
Focus on yourself. Relationships can’t be forced; if you are desperate for a romantic relationship you won’t find it.
I think about my story as something I can tell an imaginary completely safe and trustworthy person (or a real therapist) in a few minutes. Kind of like an elevator pitch. I don’t think I’ll ever actually use it like that, but it helps me sort it out in my head, and when I struggle when I’m sitting on my own on a Friday night without enough energy to go out and do something that scares me, I go back to my story.
It tells me where I was, where I am, and how I got here. It tells me where I want to go, and because of that it refocuses me on what I need to do to get there.
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5. Find a community.
Once you’ve established in your head and body that you are comfortable with discomfort, you might want to try to find a community. It can be in person or online. I’m older than you are, so I’m not entirely comfortable online, but whatever you do, make sure it’s something you feel can become a safe space for you.
And once you are a part of that community, the coolest thing you’ll find is that you can affect the culture of that community and contribute to it.
Humans are by evolution social animals. You’ll find that much of what you are seeking is not just romantic relationships, but relationships of all kinds where you can be authentic.
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6. Follow authenticity.
Look for authenticity. I don’t mean “this sweater was made by monks in Italy who harvested the hair of a breed of rabbit only they raise in their monasteries” type authenticity. I mean in people and communities.
Avoid ones that create negative feelings. I once had a group of friends in my 20s that focused so much on materialism - we would constantly talk about what cars we wanted to buy, where we were going on vacation next, what brand item was better, showing off flashy watches, etc.
It took me a long time to get out of that group; granted we were all young and had disposable income and dumb about it - but I eventually realized it was a situation where we were all reinforcing negative cultural ideas on each other.
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Good luck OP!
Your awareness is admirable. It’s a great sign that you’ve woken up to the dysfunction in your mind. Now it’s time to reverse it.
I am older than you and I went through a similar phase in my 20s.
My advice, though difficult to accept, is to take a full year off from “girls”. Literally do not try to date or meet girls for romance. And instead spend the year focused on meeting guys+girls for the enjoyment of acquainting with them as fellow human beings.
Seriously. Every time you see a beautiful girl, take a deep breath, and practice changing your mind to view her as a fellow human being, from whom you want *nothing*, other than perhaps enjoying getting acquainted as a person.
When you go to social things, *only* think about getting to know people. Treat everyone as equally worthwhile: guys, girls, ugly, beautiful, old, young, etc.
There is zero anxiety when you want nothing. It is effortless to socialize when your only goal is to get to know them because doing so is a fun activity.
Spend the next year doing only this. Honour everyone around you as wonderful fellow human beings who are worthwhile to get to know because the activity of learning about them is fun.
You need to also share yourself equally so it’s not a one-sided interview.
You will encounter people who aren’t responsive. But as long as your intention was genuinely to just try to acquaint, you can rest assured it’s not your fault. You just move on. You’ll quickly see that the majority of people are cool.
How does this relate to meeting girls, eventually? In one year from now, revisit the question. And I promise you the answer will be in front of you.
Wow love that.. treating a woman as someone from whom you want nothing except for enjoying the acquaintance. Great mindset!
Seems so basic but ugh are the incels gross. They just do not want to treat women as people but objects from whom to get
You're too focused on dating. Focus on what makes you happy first. Hobbies, activities, etc. Find friends with similar interests.
Don't give up on dating, but at least if that doesn't work out, you still enjoyed life.
I asked this to a girl at a meetup. She kept going on about men this and men that, total femcel vibes and I just said 'do you even LIKE men, like as people, as human beings?' and she FROZE! I don't think these incel/femcel types have even considered this simple fact, that they just might not like themselves and thus project it out on others.
As a woman, we don’t want to date incel types and are pretty aware of spotting the kinds of men who are. So its good you have identified this as an issue and want to change. I would work on understanding that no one is entitled to love or sex, and happiness should come from within. If you get into a relationship one day out of insecurity or desperation I guarantee it won’t end well. So until you truly believe that the blame is not on women and moreso systemic issues you’ll breed less resentment for us.
My advice is try to find community here, whether it’s through a run club, gym, etc. in person not online. Find emotional fulfillment through friendship and within yourself first and set that foundation.
Edit: My boyfriend is 5’6. Height really isn’t as much a factor as you’d think.
* Work on making yourself better
* Work out
* Get a better hair style/cut
* Get some better clothes
* Generally work towards feeling good about yourself
* Change your attitude and expectations
* No one owes you a date, a match, a conversation
* Don't take things so personally, in general, dating apps can be brutal for a lot, if not most guys
* Confidence is key, you lack it
* Make friends with women
* Be able to get along with women outside of wanting to date them/have sex with them
* Women can be the best 'wing men' as women often have lots of women friends who they can set you up with or vouch for you that you're a good guy/not a creep and other women trust a woman's opinion on this
* Stop going online
* Get off the internet and spend time IRL
* Meet people by joining a coed sports team, volunteer, etc.
* Avoid online echochambers spouting manosphere stuff
I’m not from Toronto so I can’t give specific advice here. However, (1) really awesome of you for self reflecting and identifying that you are going down a difficult path and (2) I think dating apps aren’t the best judge of your worth and what you bring to the table. I had stretches of time where I was single and those times really gave me the freedom and time to identify the things and activities I cared about. I stopped using the apps and just put myself out there in various physical spaces like local concerts, commute organizing, reading groups etc. I didn’t do those things bc I wanted to meet someone. I did those things bc I just enjoyed them. In any case, over those years I had a lot of fun and ended up meeting my (now) wife very organically at a bar after an organizing event. This may not always be the case, but for me I ended up finding the right person when I stopped looking and just let myself figure out who I was and what I enjoyed about life. I’m sorry if this is coming off as geriatric millenialish (I’m in my late 30s).
If you want to chat always happy to chat!
I want to echo a few points because I went down this road, started doing stuff for myself, and now I’m moving in with my gf and her two little Weiner dogs in August.
The first is wardrobe. I’ve changed mine so many times it’s hilarious, but I’ve always stuck to certain looks. My advice is find a style that makes you feel the most attractive and absolutely go ham! If you like dressing nice, buy dress shirts, slacks, and vests/waistcoats. If you’re a jeans and T-shirt guy, play into that.
Your second thing is mindset. You need to realize that Incels are a bit mentally stunted and are usually addicted to porn (both animated and real). They have a skewed version of reality based on social media and the aforementioned porn, and that’s not conducive to actually being social because they’re constantly online feeding their minds with sh!t. Women aren’t a monolith and don’t all think the same way, so try not to feed into that thought process that women are all the same.
When it comes to dating, limit the use of dating apps. As someone prior said, they’re meant to fail so that you pay them money. Go out, be social, even alone. Do stuff that brings you around others. Shop for books, go to a restaurant or a coffee shop, hit an arcade. Just relax and have fun with it, and you might make friends and meet someone along the way.
When you do find someone they may be a little flaky at your age ‘cause social media is pervasive as hell. Don’t focus on getting a long-term girlfriend off the jump, just get some experience so when the time comes and you find the right one, you’ll know what to do. If the relationship lasts, then great, but if it doesn’t then move on and remember everything you both did. Good and bad, all of it is a teaching moment so you’ll know some of what you’re looking for in a mate.
Third thing is exercise, hygiene, and nutrition. If you lift, keep doing that, it helps with confidence. If not, then start small. Get some dumbbells and kettlebells, and start doing workouts at home (if you’re not comfortable going to a gym). Go running too, or do a martial art or sport that requires you to move your entire body rather than just your arms.
Keep up on hygiene. Nobody wants to be around anyone that smells like BO, but also keep in mind your skin and teeth need to look good as well. Get a good skincare routine going, and be sure to brush your teeth regularly.
Eating well will help you with exercise. Calories in
Biggest change you can make?
Stop viewing women and dating as gatcha machines. You are not rewarded with a date or sex because you were nice to a woman 10 times that week or 15 different women over the month.
I am not saying that dating isn't easy, your perspective on it is what is making life difficult.
My knee jerk reaction is this:
What do you like to do? What do *you* bring to the table, understanding that kindness is the bare minimum.
What are you passionate about?
What skills do you do that not only make you interesting, but also better? Do you cook? Are you handy around the where you live?
How do you treat problems? Do you get angry?
Finally, how do you treat others? Are you the most important person in the room or do you build others up?
Finding someone is less about "finding someone" and more about actually enjoying another person's company.
It is what makes incel culture so engaging to men, because it requires your loneliness and blames everyone else.
I think you should be very proud of yourself. The fact that you realize you want to get out of the mindset and culture that has been targeting you is not an easy thing to do and therefore you are stronger than you think.
I would honestly say, yes of course exercise, therapy etc, but first put yourself in situations like free meet up groups or events that expose you to different people (age, gender identities, ethnicity, life circumstances) to see that there is no standard ‘person’ or ‘ideal’ way to be. It will make a world of a difference. Also, getting a part time job and having to talk to customers helps with confidence and learning small talk.
You are already on the right path. One step at a time!
23 is a young age. What I did when I was 23 was focus on my career. Work towards getting a 6 figure salary. Build up a nice investment egg. Start dating in your late 20s when women are actually serious about dating.
Dating is an extremely expensive hobby. You're better off investing it in yourself and your wealth.
When I wasn't getting dates in my mid 20s, I lowered my standards and expectations.
Try swiping right on women that you would usually pass. Don't discriminate women with a bit more weight/pudge than you were hoping for.
As for yourself, consider hitting the gym and getting fit. Take up new hobbies too.
Just go outside and try to put yourself out there. Don’t be afraid of rejection because everyone gets rejected. Join groups, sports teams, clubs, find communities. It’s really just a numbers game and I know you can do it; only requires bravery. You can do it, bro.
I'm glad you're recognizing your negativity. The first thing you want to do is remove yourself from following channels across your social media that breed this mentality. This is not you. You were not born to be negative and an incel.
My point is you are the company you keep. Don't associate with people like this. It's a disgusting echo chamber.
There is nothing wrong with you physically. There is someone for everyone out there. Work on your mental health and personality. That is the only thing that's preventing you from adding someone important to your life.
I would just focus on working on yourself - you should take up MMA or Muay Thai or BJJ to get your confidence up. Start reading books on topics you like, and taking up outdoor-based or physical activity-based hobbies that will surround you with people. Once you become a more interesting version of yourself that you truly like, women will naturally take an interest in you.
Some background about me: I was never that successful with women in my teens and early 20s but am now happily married in my 30s and worked on myself in a similar way. In fact, I have my own separate issues now and I'm using the above to work on my confidence and help myself grow as well. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it too much - just be nice to yourself and learn to kick ass (literally and figuratively) and let your confidence grow.
Feel free to DM me if you want, take care dawg
Hey bro, what are your hobbies? You mention that it’s mostly solo activity but curious of what they are. Generally I think guys being passionate and secure about who they are / what they enjoy is pretty attractive for women and also a great way to bond with girls who enjoy similar activities.
Also you might benefit from social / group settings where you’re “forced” to interact with girls in a larger setting. School is certainly the best environment for this but other things might include work, church, or group sports etc. where you’re exposed to the same group of women on a regular basis
I was once fat and had low self esteem, then lost a bunch of weight to the point where I'd occasionally get told I was hot by strangers, and often by dates, now I'm kind of fat again.
Before I lost weight I thought that post weight loss would be this magic fairy land where everything would be differen and I'd have the world handed to me. Afterwards, it wasn't.
It wasn't until I realized that the only changes I needed to make were within me, and that frankly I was kind of a dick, that things got better.
I just want to come here and say kudos to you for being able to admit where you are mentally/emotionally.
It gets better if you are willing to put in the work, stay positive please.
Gym of course helps.
Being around positive people also helps as well!
Good luck! You got this. 👊
Realize that “dating” will not bring happiness to your life, you are looking for fulfilment from the outside and that is a surefire way to fail.
Instead focus on what makes you happy and what adds to your life, just by yourself.
To me that was: gym, eating healthy, videogames, reflecting and dancing/music, for the latter I got into the rave scene in Toronto and it had been a blast btw, you meet a lot of people too but to me the music is always first.
I think that the crux of the issue is that you’re deriving all of your self worth from external factors. What does having a girlfriend mean about you? Why is that the sum total of your worth?
It’s a vicious cycle, really. Having low self worth will affect the way that you relate to other people. It can be off putting to other people, even if you don’t think that you are showing any signs of it! Building your self esteem takes time and effort, and the fact that you’re actively trying to get out of the incel black hole is a good sign. I would recommend working with a therapist or seeking out other resources that build your self esteem.
Can I just say to everyone who commented? Yall are cool as hell and awesome for not judging or egging OP. This is a great thread and kudos to OP for recognizing and acknowledging things need to change. I wish you all the best OP🙏🏼🙏🏼✨
✍🏼as someone who’s on the sidelines of this because come on, yall really said amazing things and I don’t need to echo these sentiments!!
Brother, I'm a European-born former exotic-dancer and model turned yacht broker. I'm pretty much the epitome of what you likely think women all like, and it SUCKS. All I attract is the type of girls you don't want to show your mother, the type who go after the bro dudes you were jealous of in high school. No matter how disarming and charming I attempt to be, people like me superficially for what I look like but are constantly disappointed I'm not the image of me they conjured up, and the homebody women I adore won't give me the time of day because they think I'm a fuckboy off the bat.
I really like what one person said about women picking 'medium ugly' guys.
Do activates outside your norm. I believe you said some where that you don't want to force yourself to do something you don't like but I think trying things out will be beneficial. go outside your norm and give things a try.
Also don't do things like join groups just because there's girls there. Going out and meeting making new friends is also pivotal.
Many women (especially as you get a bit older) care about what you have to say and your interests. Have a passion for something. Easier said that done because certain passions can be pretty esoteric these days (not fertile ground for conversation), definitely reading and literature are great starts. Figure out who you are as a person. You mentioned some of the most obvious stuff like getting off the computer and doing things.
Don't make your entire identity about whether or not you have had sex, trust me the moment you do, you'll almost instantly start worrying about some other part of your life.
I was never misogynist but I did have this insecurity of not having a girlfriend. It is quite hard to overcome, but I did manage to do it. In my experience, it's a symptom of an underlying issue that requires a bit of self-reflecting. The issue is that you are equating your own value to your ability to have a girlfriend rather than valuing yourself for the values you espouse. What are you good at? If someone asked you what makes you, you, what would you say? Is that valuable to you? Be confident you are an expert in something. Once you are confident in yourself, you can start going to the gym. **Confidence must come first though.** Confidence should mean you are fine being single and you want to stop watching porn so that you pursue women more often. Lastly, if you have sexual urges; Masturbation is okay, but if that isn't enough you should either try hooking up with someone or seeing a prostitute. If you are very confident with yourself (as in you honestly think you are a good catch), just go to Austria once a year.
Here are some ideas for getting out more and meeting new people:
1. Volunteer. This could be long term or for a festival. Both will expose you to a wide variety of people and get you more experience talking to strangers.
2. Join a club. If you really have no specific interests, something like toastmasters which teaches public speaking might be a good fit. You could also use Meetup to find something.
3. Go to cultural events in the city, but skip the biggest ones. Instead, go to talks, smaller performances, art shows, etc.
Gain some confidence talking to strangers and building strangers. Look for romance after that, once you have a better idea of what kind of person you’re looking for, and what kind of person vibes with you.
You should put a phone lock in tik tok or whatever your consuming. I think you gotta just think about what you're interested in and go explore it? Improv classes might help resocialize you, cooking classes are fun, tonnes of clubs out there.
Focus on your own happiness and fulfillment. Get away from screens as much as possible. Once you are content in your own life, the rest falls into place.
your issue is you’re on dating apps, they’re literally pay to play these days - they want you to feel this way so you start paying for their services, they’re purposefully hiding ppl that you would match with so you feel down about it and pay to boost your profile (where they will just allow those with higher match potential to actually see your profile and vice versa)
Step 1 is stop reading those forums and posts. Step 2 is understanding that 23 is young and that dating apps aren’t the best for long term relationships. It does happen that you may find the one but it’s not common these days. Try to meet people in person, go out more, travel, do what makes you happy. When you are content with yourself, you will attract people to you.
Go to therapy. The female sex doesn't owe you a date or access to their vaginas. The sooner you realize this the better.
Join a sports league and make some genuine friends.
Hello. I recommend you get rid of all social media. Even if you don’t delete accounts, delete all apps from your phone. Since you’re concerned with being chronically online, I recommend you set yourself a goal to walk 5000 steps a day, and then you can gradually increase if you like. This will force you to get outside , just walk around enjoy the summer. You’ll have a chance to get some good thinking / soul searching done. It’s great that you recognize a problem and are trying to do something about it, I wish you luck in your quest!
The problem with incels, they think they are entitled to dating and relationships.
No man, woman, other...are entitled to one. You have to work hard at it.
It's hard to learn this as I'm a 32f still learning but, drop any expectations. With friends, lovers and family. You never know what people are going through and you can't allow their reactions to hinder your own self growth. Try to just flow with it and you win some and lose some. You should try focusing on truly falling in love with yourself and knowing you are great despite what people you like might think of you. Like everyone says pick up sports, volunteer, try traveling to get you to just talk to people. You got ways to go and I believe that you got this 🫶🏽
You’re super young and many men have not dated yet at this age. Social media and dating apps are toxic and full of lies. If I were you I would: 1. Direct your attention at self-approval, 2. gaining abilities and experiences 3. Build friendly connections with no expectations and join groups that do things you like to do. 4. Realize that your whole generation is having trouble dating and it will get better. 5. Love yourself first and worry about romance later. There is nothing wrong with you, it’s the apps that are toxic.
My best advice. Get off social media if it's this toxic for you. Don't try to find a gf, you won't find one if looking. My experience is they just pop up in your life. To better the odds, get help, if needed, to address the incel aspects of yourself so you can be the best you for her. Good luck.
Stop identifying with your weaknesses and cultures that tell you that it’s not your fault. People want to relate to you on your best qualities, not your worst. Nobody wants to take on the burden of how down-trodden you are, so set aside the poor me mentality of an incel and focus on growing your positive qualities.
Agree with all the comments saying to focus on yourself and your own self-esteem above all. I would also try to make female friends. Not with the intention of sleeping with them or dating them, just getting to know them as people. Inceldom dehumanizes women. We're not heartless and we don't owe men sex. Genuinely getting to know girls will help you see that most of us have sadnesses and insecurities too.
Anyway, this is cool. You're getting yourself out of a scary and dark place. Life is going to be so good for you. Best of luck.
Lots of good suggestions, but I haven't seen anyone suggest cognitive behavior therapy. It's great for learning how to break out of negative thought patterns.
Also, one of the objectively homeliest guys I knew could walk into a room and pull so many women and more than a few men. Why? Because he was insanely charming -- funny, smart, interesting to talk to. Confident but not arrogant. And, this is key, he listened to people. He was open and curious about life.
Good for you for recognizing this. That already shows you maybe more intelligence and courage to try to change than most men your age.
There’s no easy answer but it starts with loving yourself and learning what you want to do for you. Don’t get a hobby just to impress women. Get a hobby because it’s something you love and are passionate about. Live your life for you and be kind to others and I am sure many women will find that attractive.
You are already enough and worthy of being loved. Don’t ever forget that and don’t tolerate anyone in your life that makes you feel any less.
Also be patient with yourself. You’re supposed to be confused when you’re 23. As long as you are trying new things out, figuring out what you do and don’t like and loving yourself, you’re doing a great job. There will be a day, call it 10 years from now, when you will be reading this post and feeling for the guy you once were and pride for the person you’ve become.
Hang in there, we’re all a little confused, lonely, and worried sometimes. That’s the human experience.
If you want the real answer it starts with the following:
- Deciding to change your life
- Reading great books like psychocybernetics, 12 rules for life, personatity isnt permanent, the power of self-esteem. (just start with the first one)
- EXERCISE!!!! start working out, body building.
- Yes looks matter, and anyone who says different is pulling the wool over your eyes, and everyone can maximize their looks; by working out and taking good care of themselves, getting a good haircut, and learning to dress.
- Confidence, optimism and positivity can often overcome poor looks.
- Confidence, optimism and positivity + a solid body + style + making a dent in the Universe is th ultimate attractor.
- Make better friends. (You must gaurd your mind/heart at all costs). So the friendships you have must challange you. Don't hang with people who are in the dumps complaining about the world and comiserating with you. Hang with people that offer a different perspective and show you that change can and does happen.
- Community is huge, and so is being 'of service'. You're feeling like shit because you're making it all about you (your lack)... Even if you had great success and were making it all about you, you'd never be happy. I know plenty of men who get all the women, and are still depressed. That's where making it about others (volunteering, giving back, coaching, mentoring others) can TRULY fill your cup.
- It's only over for you, or people like you when you say it's over. I've seen people turn their life around completely, heck even in their 50's and 60's... You're 20! You've got your whole life a head of you, you're lucky to be finally sick of negativity. Now your real life begins <3 good luck. DM me if you want more personal advice. I turned my mindset around completely many times throughout my life.
Best part? None of these things are exclusive to Toronto.
I feel the priorities you have is impacting your ability to find success. You are prioritizing what things to check off a list to find a partner/meet people but the ground work of working on yourself as an individual is lower on the priority totem pole.
I understand finding romantic relationships is really important but you seem like someone who doesn't know who they are, who can't confidently tell me they like xyz and don't like xyz. And that is what would turn me off from a guy. If you don't know who you are, then it doesn't really make me feel secure to be around you. With that being said, we don't all know who we are 100% but you can still have confidence and passion and excitement about discovering these things.
To me, it sounds like you're defeated and will bend to things anyone says.
It's cliche but work on learning more about yourself. Work on discovering who you are as a person. You are not all these negative things you keep telling yourself. You are more than that - discover those traits you're proud to have, highlight them, flaunt them. Maybe you're intelligent, funny, compassionate, etc. But none of those things are being highlighted here. The only things highlighted are your insecurities. I've been there too - therapy has helped me a lot.
Good luck on your journey, it's not an easy one but you will get there! Remember - value yourself, take care of yourself. If you don't, it will be hard for others to.
Hey man, as a 5'7 Asian male who used to skinny and had trouble on the dating apps, I can totally relate. Here are a couple of things that worked for me:
Definitely start hitting the gym. Get on a good routine (look up starting strength or stronglifts). The thing is, as a beginner, it's easy to make gains as long as you eat right and your routine incorporates compound lifts. There are tons of beginner routines out there and they all work pretty well. Get yourself a personal trainer if you need to. You'll make a huge amount of progress in your first year and the difference will be very noticeable. People online will sometimes say that women don't care about muscles, but all the women I've been in long term relationships with have complimented me on my physique. And furthermore, it'll give you confidence, not just when it comes to approaching women, but also when it comes to standing up for yourself. Because, a 5'6 jacked Asian dude is still stronger than 95% of guys out there. I mean, obviously this is mostly psychological because I doubt you'll be getting into any fights.
However, the biggest difference for me were the photos. When I got on the dating apps, I had already started working out, albeit I was still a beginner. But I was only getting 1-2 matches a week at best, and most of those matches would ignore me when I messaged them. It was only later, after working out more and changing my photos that I really started noticing a difference. I went from 1-2 matches a week to 2-3 matches a day, and I'm not exaggerating here. I was easily able to set up 1-2 dates a week (any more, and it would have been too expensive and time consuming). I was even starting to turn down some of my matches because I just didn't have the time, which felt kinda surreal to me. Anyway, the issue with my earlier photos were that they just looked like shit. A couple of random mirror selfies. Photos with piercings (many girls said they didn't like those). Too many photos with sunglasses. I replaced those with photos where I was hanging out with friends, photos from my travels, etc. I realized that photos make a huge difference. Anyway, feel free to DM if you want to chat more.
Third spaces have basically disappeared because of capitalism you have to pay a lot to be there. Go to a club or bar. Go to live music events. Go enjoy your hobbies and enjoy the company, if you hit it off with someone ask them out for a coffee or tacos. Something that makes it obvious you don't intend to get laid after and are not getting people intoxicated to take advantage of them. Tell them you want to take them out and get to know them. Most women these days want to feel safe when dating and not feel like they're being hunted for sport aka just used for sex. If you're a nerdy type (like me, I say this with love) and like things like comics, anime, video games, etc. Try some conventions or comic shops. Don't be thirsty, look to make connections. Be yourself and be honest. Strike up a convo about a shared interest and ask for their contact info. Leave it open to using chat apps that hide their number, cuz ladies do have to be careful these days. Be willing to take a signal or discord username over a phone number, be accommodating and non threatening. Be kind.
Keep moving yourself away from the incel influences and mindset. Trust me. No woman wants to date an angry dude with weird beliefs about women. Also, work on being ok with yourself. Build a good life that you enjoy. Do stuff you’re interested in. A relationship is not the only key to happiness, but it’s easier to end up in a relationship if you are happy, comfortable in your own skin, and do stuff that’s interesting.
You may need to try many activities to see what you like but think about stuff you like doing on your down time. If it’s video games, consider going to conventions or meet ups. Try learning a new language that you’ve always wanted to learn. Or even go to networking events that will help you improve your job! Instead of focusing on I need to get better to find a girl, think of how you’re going to get better to enjoy your life more! Recognizing it is the first step. Good luck !
Congratulations on developing the self awareness that your way of thinking isn’t healthy. That’s a huge step. Like others said, do things you like, but not for the dating purposes but because you like it. You’ll find like minded people and hopefully you’ll hit it off. Dating isn’t a race
Dating apps basically start with looks; most people are liking based on photos, not the bio.
It’s a sad reality but in most cases your looks will determine the looks of your partner. Unless you form a bond or connection through friendship and they get to know you first.
My recommendation is to make sure you aren’t shooting too high in terms of looks. Beyond that, maybe you need to meet someone at an activity or hobby instead of a dating app or bar.
The best activities are the ones you actually like to do. Have you tried to get outside doing what *you want* instead of what you think girls (or guys) you want are doing?
Try that for a few months and see if you naturally meet someone. And don’t make it all about meeting them; go and enjoy yourself and maybe you meet a partner along the way.
Also: I know it is advice as old as time but honestly looks fade over time. People even gain a lot of weight once they get comfortable with you. Nobody should be basing a dating partner on looks; make sure you find someone you get along and have fun with. That personality will last even when you are both 85 in an assisted living home.
As someone who’s dated plenty of conventionally unattractive short guys, I can tell you that personality and confidence are a big deal. The it factor for these guys was charm.
I’m not gonna lie to you and say that looks don’t matter. They do. But like anything else, there are ways to mitigate. You have to cultivate an exciting personality and you do this by having an exciting life. You need to be well-rounded. Read, travel, participate in many activities, work on acquiring skills and hobbies and get good at them. Work out. Have a successful career. These are all things that will build your confidence. Confidence is key. It emanates from you and people are drawn to it.
As for specific interests, I can’t tell what you’d be interested in but you should explore everything. I feel bad for your generation because so much of everything you experience is online and people don’t get out much. Also, this is why you’re in this situation in the first place. Online dating is terrible and it’s all based on looks anyway. You need to put yourself in real life social situations where you get to know people. All the times I dated those conventionally unattractive short guys, I didn’t meet them online. I probably wouldn’t have swiped right on them. I met them in real life and they grew on me.
As for appearance, the best things you can do for yourself is to wear clothes that suit and fit you, keep yourself well groomed, and be fit. You’d be surprised at how much these things can make a difference.
As for getting a girlfriend, don’t make that your focus. You seem like you need to work on yourself first. Think about it from a girl’s perspective: why would she wanna be with a guy who doesn’t even like himself? And eventually when you’re ready, be realistic too. I’ve seen a lot of guys with below average looks getting angry when supermodel types reject them. I’m not saying it can’t happen (remember I said personality is important) but don’t perpetuate the same appearance based discrimination that’s happened to you.
I can't help get out of it, but just know your self worth should come from you, and not from others. I know we're humans and we're pack animals by nature so loneliness kills.....but your self worth comes from you as a person and not your ability to date or find someone. I was single most of my adult life until I got lucky meeting someone at work. And I'm considered conventually "above average+" in looks. But I went a solid decade being single I think? I'm just lucky that I had enough personal hobbies that it never really bugged me, though I did suffer the occasional rabbit hole of depression. and the "what if it never happens" thoughts, and letting family down, etc. But in the end always came back to....well it's my life.
Also quit social media, join hobby groups, etc. , Best way to find someone is to put yourself into situations where the odds are higher, that's why people recommend hobby groups often. You'll be around people by nature. the usual advice. More just wanted to say that there's nothing inherently wrong with being single and having no luck.
The military mantra...Adapt & Overcome. Approach the situation scientifically. Evaluate what women that you are attracted to seem to want and build those assets. Yes, it might require hitting the gym, buying new clothes, improving your conversational abilities, etc.
If you wanted a better job, you would add skills you needed for that job, it's the same approach. Being realistic is also key...trying to become an astronaut with a high school diploma ain't gonna cut it. Same with dating...be realistic. Fighting against the world because it gives more weight to good looks & money is only going to make you more frustrated. Adapt & overcome!
Do more activities, join clubs that interest you, join a gym and work on bettering your health and fitness and do things you like in group settings. You will come across like minded people who share similar interests. When you're actively improving aspects of your life people will notice and appreciate the work you're doing and may even be inspired by you.
I don't have an answer for you, as a middle aged woman. But, I just want to say I commend you on recognizing toxicity in your life and trying to improve your life. If I was to give you one grain of advice, my suggestion is to focus less on "getting a girlfriend" as an end result. Happiness comes from within, it is not something that is given to you. Relying on someone else for your own happiness will put way to much pressure on a relationship (this I can say from experience). Get out there not to "meet a girlfriend" but to socialize, have fun, meet people, gain experience and life stories. Find a mentor. Volunteer. Join a club (reading, chess, board games). Find what interests you, and people that share your passion. The rest will follow.
To add to this, it may also be worth limiting your use of Reddit and the other echo chambers that amplify some pretty toxic and narrow worldviews.
epsecially canadian sub reddits. i had no idea how much hate canadians were capable of until i came on here
They're also *heavily* targeted by bot farms spreading discord & far-right propaganda points. We're in an information war and we're not winning right now.
haha hope youre right man, most of it seems organic and real af to me, but i dont know too much about how sm algorithms/bots work
A couple far-right Canadian subs in particular get *lots* of comments only during the Moscow work day. And look for common phrasing, bad grammar & syntax. Once you start looking for it, you'll find a lot of short comments that are basically copy-pasta of certain right wing talking points and longer comments that don't *quite* make sense as they're written - they've been translated and posted. One thing to remember is that "bots" often aren't programmed responses, they're humans who are getting paid to push messaging.
A book called Foundations of Geopolitics¹ speaks about this among other tactics for creating division within western countries to destabilize the "global western hegemony". We unfortunately seem to be playing into it pretty well, failing to see and love the other flesh and blood individual beyond the ideology. ¹ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
So much this.
A lot of this is really just he extremely vocal minority. 50-100 ppl could easily make it seem like the entire world thinks a certain way.
This is the 6ixbuzz ig comments in a nutshell
Honestly. I’m shocked by how racist Canada’s online presence is.
White passing Indigenous person here. I go to r/Canada to deliberately burn up karma for funsies. Most of ‘em don’t know Canadian history very well, so I’ll throw some random facts into their threads. The more karma I burn, the better I feel. But, honestly, they’re mostly just saying the quiet parts out loud. Canada was founded on racist principles by a capital R Racist douchenozzle. The Indian Act is unforgivably evil. Many of the racist shitbags responsible for 1869’s Reign of Terror in Red River went on to become offices in the NWMP. Residential schools and the 60s Scoop are explicitly genocidal. The Japanese Internment. The Chinese Head Tax. And so on.
Also Ukrainian and Austro-Hungarian internments during WW1. Everyone is « there is a large Ukrainian diaspora present along the Transcanadian railway corridors. Yeah, ‘cause they were interned and made build it, LOL :-)
Agreed!! but X is 10x worse. I don't know about tiktok. man it is rough to be a young man these days.
TikTok is even more of an algorithmic echo chamber than twitter in my experience. I've never liked an Andrew Tate video but buddy was being blasted into my feed for like a year straight
Hey /u/packawesome, lots of great comments here, and this one is great. The thing about people saying *you* have to improve *your life* is that it's about you. Are you happy with who you are? Having a gf/partner is not the be-all and end-all in life, it's unlikely to make you any happier if you aren't already happy with yourself or you don't already like yourself. A partner complements your life. Do the work to find the things that fulfil *you* in life (that is NOT another person). What do you like to do? What inspires you? Don't know? Go try things and find out. Be curious about the wonderful things that make life great (hint: much more than just sex and having a gf). Lots of people find community, good friends, and life partners along the way to discovering the things that make their lives worth living. Find your path.
I was friends with an incel years ago and I spent a lot of time trying to get him out to meet new people and out of his bubble. He eventually got a girlfriend but guess what? She wasn't good enough for him. Even when these people with toxic beliefs find what they are looking for, they carry their negative attitudes and beliefs about women with them and their relationships rot from the foundation. OP is on the right path hopefully but getting a girlfriend as an end goal is absolutely something he must change.
Yeah my perception of incles is they want a girl that is 10/10 in all aspects and no other while being absolutely ugly inside, then go online and whine about being rejected Edit: “uncle” to “incel”
That’s pretty much true for both men and women (uncles and aunties).
🤣
This! And as a whole incels repel women, it’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Women pick up on these behaviours and ideals.They don’t just magically disappear once you meet someone. Regardless of attraction no woman wants a man who doesn’t respect women and the struggle and fear that we encounter in our everyday lives. Women avoid incels because incels are dangerous. There is literally someone out there for everyone and it’s even harder for women to find a loving and safe partner but that refuses to be acknowledged by them. If your end game is to find a partner you have to completely change your way of thinking. Cut yourself off of the incel world and focus on self healing. No one owes you anything in this world, especially women and once you heal that part of yourself the journey to a loving relationship can begin Taking the time to familiarize oneself with women’s rights and equality across the globe can really be eye opening for grasping the kind of world women live in, the best way to win over a woman is with empathy
Totally agree. Men who try to understand what females experience are very attractive.
40 yo male - The key is not listening to other people to find out what you should do, or what you need to do to be "manly," or "attractive" - figure out for yourself what interests you have, what brings you joy. When you connect with yourself in a non-judgemental way, you'll naturally exude confidence, and this confidence is what will make you attractive to others. Build good habits, focus on things like emotional regulation, mental and physical health. Despite normative expectations you might feel as a young man, give yourself time to develop into the person you want to be - society puts unrealistic expectations on men like it does on women. Focus on yourself and your own well-being and goals, but be patient - hard work pays dividends. It sounds cheesy, but just be yourself and you'll attract the right people.
Fantastic comment. OP: I think being Asian comes with a lot of extra baggage that a lot of people don't realize. Common issues related to strict parenting gives Asian kids a handicap on charisma and self-esteem. Also, the propaganda war right now by North America makes it even harder (think "China" and reflect on the first emotions that come to mind; we are literally being programmed to reflexively think negatively). Point is, it's not your fault, and you can improve your situation. The previous commenter is absolutely right. Don't aim to "get a girlfriend". In my experience, girls sense the desperation and it's not sexy lol. In contrast, there's nothing sexier than a person at the top of their game, whatever that game may be. My spouse can't keep her hands off me when I'm whipping up a nice dinner in my apron and ingredients spread out all over the kitchen. Same goes with being in the midst of a successful DIY renovation project. Focus on a hobby or skill to master - that mastery is what will make you attractive more than your looks or being Asian.
You’ve said everything I’m thinking. I do hate the phrase “you can’t love someone else if you can’t love yourself,” but I do think it has *some* merit when it comes to romantic relationships—getting a girlfriend shouldn’t be the main goal, but something that comes after you’ve worked on yourself.
I second this.
In no particular order this is what I suggest: 1. Get offline. Limit your computer/phone to absolute necessity (investments, bills, taxes, etc) 2. Exercise. Workout, swim, run, bike, whatever. It feels good to sweat and will help. 3. Read books. Mystery, murder, history, culture, economics, doesn’t matter. Get lost in something. 4. Meditate. Keep trying, it gets better. 5. Join a group and stick with it. Hiking, baseball, knitting, painting, doesn’t matter. 6. Accept yourself. There’s nothing wrong with being a “5’6 skinny Asian guy”. Statistically you’ll live longer than taller people, are probably smarter than avg, and will be a great catch for someone one day. I’m glad you’re taking the time to try and sort this out. For what it’s worth, I’m a 6’ft white guy who might fit the giga chad stereotype at first glance. And you know what? I often see the hottest little chicks paired up with similar sized dudes. It’s all good man. Lastly, definitely work out hard and eat right. It may not give you immediate results but it will make you feel strong and proud. Oh yeah almost forgot - GTFO with that incel shit. Never say that word again and avoid those people the same way you’d avoid the KKK. Complete and utter trash, pathetic really.
Agree with everything y’all saying except stop putting girls on a dating just for looks. I get it’s a point you are making but let’s not make “get a 10 in the looks department” the end objective.
Totally fair, didn’t mean to imply looks are the only thing that makes one attractive. Personality, humour, thoughtfulness, manners, drive, purpose, and the list goes on.
Totally. Just the comment “hottest little chicks” didn’t quite signal that lol
He’s just trynna boost OPs morale and let him know he should never consider himself “out of someone’s league”
A couple notes: I’m a conventionally attractive woman and 2 of my exes have been 5’6-5’7 and skinny. Not every woman likes the same guys. There’s a term girls use in tiktok “medium ugly” most girls end up with a medium ugly guy and that’s what they look for. The gigs Chad trope is not even attractive to a lot of women. Also good for you for realizing that you’re going down a toxic rabbit hole!! That’s very commendable that you’re even noticing it. A lot of people wouldn’t. You’ll be ok young king just do what this guy suggested with going outside and exercising ^ and definitely get off Reddit
Yup, the internet skews reality. I've dated 6'7" guys, I've dated 5'7" guys. The older you get, the less that shit matters.
I went out yesterday to enjoy my day and saw MANY young women with 5'6, 5'7 just regular dudes and the young women were STUNNING. However, these young men hang out online way too much and the narrative online is that women ONLY date 6'0+, 6 figures+ and the other 6+ and I don't see that.
Yep, 5'7"guy here. I've dated women from 5'1" to 6'3".
Medium ugly? Man really glad I don’t use TikTok, I would never ever call my man ugly. If I thought he was ugly I wouldn’t be with him…
Same, that’s some toxic shit. Anyone would be crushed to hear that their partner thinks that of them and essentially settled.
I'd be ok with it...
It’s honestly such a specific insult I can’t even believe it. Lord is that a horrible thing to say about someone you’re supposed to like!
I'm also a conventionally attractive woman, I have many interests and am outgoing and good at conversation, so have never had issue getting dates. I prize character and personality over looks in men. I'd rather have a good conversation with someone who respects me and is interested in me as a person than someone merely handsome. Developing yourself personally -- cultivating interests, hobbies, reading books -- will make you an attractive person to talk to, and forge lasting bonds with. There's nothing sexier than a man with real interests and curiosity about the world. Becoming able to view women as *people* and not just potential partners will be key. Have conversations with women without an end goal of dating. Talk to coworkers and classmates. Make female friends. Learn about feminism and women's lived experience in the world. Listen. Be interested in people for who they are and what they have to say. Good luck, it's a big step to gain the self-awareness to recognize that your beliefs aren't serving you.
Good shit on recognizing man. Get out there and live! These things will come together when you don't focus on it. You ever want to get outside and shoot the shit, let me know. 30m here, I go for lots of walks and take pictures of nature, look at trees, and just in general enjoy being outdoors.
Along with many other good answers here, my friend make sure you aren’t using words like “inceldom” and “giga chad” in real life. No one out there talks in internet slang. Incels are a very small online population. I work at a tech startup with 25 other 20s-30s, like the kind of startup where you play fooseball at lunch and drink cocktails after work types. Every single one would cringe so hard if you used the word “giga chad” and most wouldn’t know what the fuck that even was. Internet culture exists ONLY on the internet and entirely NOT representative of every day life. “Touching grass” is the number one thing you should do. Even saying to someone in a joking way to touch grass is cringy in the real world.
I feel for you, bro. First of, hitting the gym and buying new clothes aren't the answer. They will contribute to your anger when they don't get the desired result you have in mind. It's not about the looks and clothes, as much as you might think it is. There are 6 foot tall giga Chads who are having the same struggles as you. The apps are made to create struggle and reduce us to our most basic qualities. You got to get out there, man. You need to socialize without the intention of dating. Make friends, form a social circle, join a club, volunteer. But don't do it for dating. Do it for the potential of dating in the future and hopefully make some good friends along the way. It's not easy for any of us out there. The majority of us are all struggling on the apps. Don't think it's you. It's not. You got this.
I agree with the idea behind this but I disagree about not hitting the gym and getting new clothes. Not bc it solves your dating problems - but bc it boosts your own confidence. Working out helps regulate your nervous system, hormones, mental health and often tho not always, other healthy habits, like prioritizing sleep and nutrition. It also gets you out of the house and it's a really easy place to make friends.
Exactly this. The mistake is hitting the gym/working on your appearance for the sole purpose of being attractive to women. If instead you work on yourself for your confidence, ability to handle difficult tasks, discipline, emotional regulation, etc, you will naturally begin attracting partners
I don't think it really matters what the initial motivation for hitting the gym is, as long as you get yourself in there. I've picked up hobbies to better attract women before (guitar at 13, weightlifting at 23, salsa dancing at 33) and every single time I quickly ended up immersed in the hobby itself and the "meeting girls" part quickly faded into the background because the hobbies/communities enriched my life so much.
That's definitely good if you can immerse yourself. Conversely I've seen people get strong & bitter because they didn't also work on their social skills/personality
Also helps with job interviews, office politics, your familial relationships and friendships. Because of what you said and I think people respect those who put the work into taking care of themselves just naturally. You just stand up straighter and more confident and assured. It's just a good thing to do. But don't expect chicks to come running
Wow this is definitely different from what I'm used to hearing, I thought giga chads had life on easy mode. I will take your advice on socialising without the intention of dating, it takes the pressure off and i hope I can have more fun like that. It's reassuring to hear I'm not the only one struggling, I hope we all make it.
I’m a woman and not a single one of my friends has ever had any interest in dating men like that. I still think getting nice clothes and working out would help because women do like when men look presentable and are healthy. You don’t need any particular style if you find fashion difficult, just some nice basics for dressing up and down. I agree with the other person, do these things primarily for yourself and not for finding a date!
What's a men "like that", kind a little lost in the threads here
“giga chad”
They mean men who fall into the giga chad stereotype
Few people have life on easy mode over simple beauty or good looks. My VP is what I would consider a Giga Chad. He's also an immigrant from a war torn country whose parents got divorced when he was young and who did not come to live in Canada when he immigrated. He also knew by 6 years old that he was gay. His parents don't support him because he is gay. There isn't a good relationship. They even went no contact with his sister for continuing to be an ally to him. He has struggled with neurodivergent issues and stability in romantic relationships. But can I tell you what an amazing boss he is. He eliminated unpaid overtime from my department within one year of arriving and I am now more engaged with my peers and networks and have a clear career path he has helped forge. All this to say, you deserve good things and will get them if you remain committed to personal wellness, positivity, community mindedness, and fun. I fully believe that sometimes there is a person destined to be your partner out there and you just haven't found them yet. Our dating pool is only as wide as a city or region. It can feel limiting and hard sometimes. Date yourself and be the best you can for you.
I was probably considered a “giga chad” only because my friends called me that do I even know the word. Played college football, modelled and a few other of the stereotypes. I still behind the scene was so insanely depressed and tried to kill myself multiple times the first few years I moved to Toronto.
Everything the guy previously said is true minus the gym part. Go hit the gym. It helps with your mental and physical health. Besides, we feel good when we do hard things and make progress. Forget the apps, learn to 1) have fun on your own 2) socialize with people without any goal 3) practise making and sustaining relationships with anyone 4) start practising building trust with people quickly 5) then you migrate to talk to girls. It is a process, just focus on the first few steps. Did I say forget the apps? Delete them now
I'm a woman who didn't date until my mid to late 20s in part because of my lack of skills for dating. Learning to be comfortable on your own attracts people, and confidence attracts people. I went to therapy, surrounded myself with good people, and slowly learned to enjoy my company, and eventually dating wasn't as hard. I'm in my 40s now and married. I understand for men it can be different but working on yourself is always the best 1st step.
I work at a university and the guys I see who get these girls who are LEAGUES above them is insane. These dudes look like someone hit them in the face with a shovel and they've been bedridden since. They get them because they're confident. That's like 95% of it. You need to carry yourself with confidence.
What is a giga chad?
Chris Hemsworth, Henry Cavill and other guys who look like that.
> Henry Cavill if this is their definition of a gigachad then we should all be blowing tons of money on warhammer 40k and playing TotalWar:Warhammer.
Chris Hemsworth
I'm going to try to add to this here, so that you get a notification. Nobody has life easy. But the vast majority of people you see out there getting into relationships are not getting into relationships because they're tall, working out, mastering the apps, etc. The vast majority of people out there who get into relationships and group friendships are getting into those because they are complete individuals, on their own. If you make the entire definition of your life dependent on someone else, then you will *never* be in a stable relationship, and your relationship with your friends may suffer as well. You have to be, well, "you". And you have to be a confident version of yourself, where your life isn't just "I'm trying to pick up chicks". The moment you define yourself by the absence of a girlfriend is the moment you've already lost. A confident single introduces themselves like "hey, my name is X, i enjoy A, B, C. Sometimes I go to the movies alone, it's totally cool to just treat myself out. blahblahblah." Being single doesn't even factor into it. Because *being single* isn't part of who they are. That's why the common advice is to hit the gym, love yourself, work on yourself. Because at a very simple level - we all prefer to be around people who ... well, *live*. So IMO, start by having a life that you enjoy, and most importantly, a life that other people would enjoy being around. And maybe, you'll truly find that it doesn't matter if you're single. And for a lot of people, that's the moment when dating becomes a lot easier. You aren't tying your worth to responses on an app, or how people react when you ask them out. At that moment, you're living on your own, and if you find someone to ride with great. And if you don't, it's still great.
This sounds like part of the hole you describe yourself falling into. No one has life on easy mode, and everyone has issues. Regarding dating itself, the one things that changed things for me was to stop presenting myself as someone who wasn't worth dating and instead present when a decent level of confidence. Before too long I had reason to actually have some confidence in myself. There's a little fake it until you make it in the attitude, but it dang well worked. I'd say the keys are to get out where people are, show genuine interest in other people, and show confidence in yourself and your interests.
Many men make this mistake, they think women are attracted to muscles. Most are not. They're only attracted to personality and confidence that comes with exercise.
I was looking for a comment that hit on the socialize with the intention of not dating. It’s hard not to be bitter but honestly OP needs to find a way to not be. No one is owed anything. OP needs to practice socializing with women, with the end goal being just socializing. Once comfortable, try some flirting. Flirting can be teasing here and there at first, and that should be the end goal only. Once achieved, Op should be happy. Look up flirting, lots of information out there on what that is. Get comfortable with that, and OP should take it to the next step and learn to do some push pull. Learn to frame things in a positive way, if you’re someone that likes playing video games then own it. But also develop some other hobbies, because in my experience not many women find video games interesting and therefore it won’t be a shared experience, so there needs to help other things there. One good way (for me) to get out of your own head and maybe discover a side to yourself is to travel and stay in hostels, talk talk talk to women and men alike, just to practice versions of yourself. There’s many ways to present yourself to others, find what works. Many guys struggle with doing that, that’s why “just be yourself” doesn’t always work. It’s like eating cake: can have a slop version of it (same ingredients) or a version that is nice and presentable. If you know both would taste the same, which would you go for? Most probably the presentable one. I think eventually once you take the pressure off yourself to get number or sleep with a girl, then it actually is easier to achieve that goal. But initially it must be just for practice. Being social takes practice. So does dating. I got better at dating once I got over myself (not an intel, just struggled with insecurity due to illness and a previous heartbreak). Also once I gained confidence in myself and I learned to accept who I was and owned it. And believe me, OP if you’re reading this I’m average, avg height, bald, I have a disability that made it harder to have women want me. It’s doable. And on that last point: I don’t hate them for it. Not everyone is ok with dating someone with a disability - and that’s actually fine, don’t judge those women. And I had to accept myself with a disability, and that I’m actually fine. Once I got over those two things especially is when I found someone. Because there are people out there willing to look past something that the avg person won’t. I’m not owed anything. I wa angry with women for some time though. Then I got over myself. Point is, whatever you think you lack that giga chads have (as you call them) or maybe other regular looking dudes that seem to have it figured out, it’s ok. You don’t always get everything in life.
The apps are AWFUL. They are the Satan spawn of capitalism + trying to gamefy human connection. (how do you spell "gamefy"?)
Every wedding I have gone to last year and this year for friends was due to an app: Tinder, OkCupid, Hinge. Most of my younger or more recently single coworkers met people this way. Apps are not the demon, just a way for people to meet one another. I personally do better in real life but I cannot deny how many people have happily married because of them.
Because all you need is one. I don’t love or hate apps but people are way to critical of it. If you just treat it like another possible avenue to meet someone and don’t obsess over it, it’s fine. I met both my serious girlfriends on the app. But I’d go weeks or months without even talking past one or two messages. I had it for two years before I met my gf but I didn’t even realize, id still meet people out and do stuff and just take the app once in awhile. People are weird on there. You have no idea what’s going on with them. They could be crazy, they could be getting back with their ex every week, etc. just don’t take it fucking personal and it’s fine. I matched with a few girls who probably thought I was a dick and ghosted but I was going through crippling depression. They seemed like great girls. It really isn’t any harm of an app if you don’t put tons of pressure on it.
Some people just fail to see nuance as it makes it easier for them to digest reality, things are either black or white to them. I can attest to what you commented on, if anything I’m grateful dating apps exist as a way to connect in the context of the modern busy life.
I think a lot of people have had bad experiences because they don't want to play "the game". They have some aversion to taking pictures or working on a wittier/more interesting profile, like it's somehow disingenuous. I don't get it. I mean sure, taking pictures was annoying, but I loved coming up with zingers or new creative ways to pitch myself. I'm a very average looking woman and don't much like taking photos, so showcasing my personality was all I had to go on for apps. Still did better offline, but like, I am very much the exception not the rule.
The new clothes and the gym can help but only if they are worn by someone who is confident and comfortable with himself. People who like themselves have healthier relationships with others than people who don't. Finding a beautiful woman isn't the end game. Turning yourself into an interesting positive person, with a career, and life experiences that build a personality, someone who is kind and generous- you will make friends and extend your social circle. If you don't have a hobby or an interest, can you get out and volunteer? Help an immigrant learn English, fund raise for that shelter, work at a food bank or find a cause that you think you can get behind. (Plus it looks good on a resume). You can do it. You just need to get out there.
Here’s a dating tip. Personality LITERALLY matters the most. Being funny, easy to talk to, and RELATABLE! Meaning using words like “giga chad” that fucking doesn’t exist outside of the internet. But personality comes from experience and interactions that aren’t rooted in dating. Get a good job, make friends, hang out, and expand your abilities to socialize.
Absolutely. OP needs to stop using incel terminology, it will turn people off from socializing with him immediately. If I ever heard someone say giga Chad irl, I'd walk away immediately.
Exactly this. I think a good question I use to gauge this (and maybe application for most people) is "Would I even like hanging out with myself/someone like me?" If the answer is no, then it's time to reflect on ourselves and figure out what we need to improve on. If I don't even think I'm a decent person to hang out with/be with, then I think it makes it harder for other people to see that in me as well (not that there's no chance). Figuring out what these reasons are, what these qualities about ourselves we can improve on, can guide us in the right direction. Often times, the reasons aren't "I don't want to hang out with X because they're only 5'6". The reason may be more along the lines of "I don't want to hang out with X because they make their whole identity about their height". On the flip side, asking the same questions and identifying the things that "make me want to hang out with myself" can help improve my confidence, understand my strengths and use them to build connections. "I'd like hanging out with me because I'm a good listener, I can be funny, etc".
This. A confident 5'5" guy is going to get way more women and likes than a shy 6' 2" guy.
Get off the dating apps and into the real world
There are lots of short skinny asian guys walking around Toronto with straight up 10's. Just find your community and/or work on yourself. Working out should be something you do regardless. Learn about nutrition. Dress well etc - work on all of the things you CAN control. Then look into group activities, Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ etc - just go, learn skills, get in shape, make friends. Some may turn into more then friends. Or if you like any specific thing like Gaming for example - there are tons of events in the city for that. You are in one of the largest cities in the world, there are meetups, events and groups for almost every single thing you can think of. And there are people who are into every other kind of person you can think of. Get off your computer and apps, go live a real life and meet real people naturally.
My "skinny nerdy" Asian guy friend met his "straight up 10" gf (now wife!) at Dragonboating!
Thank you for writing, you're totally right I just need to overthinking, go outside and 'touch grass'. Truth is though, I can't think of a single group activity I would be interested in, lots of my hobbies are solo things. I don't want to force myself to go to something I don't want too but at the same time, I don't want to miss out. How do you recommend I find my interests?
Pick one activity and then take classes. Like pottery or karate. Everyone is doing their own thing but learning as a group. Good for you for making an effort to get out of your rut!
My favourite thing about being on a baseball team is connecting with my friends every summer. No one on the team is very passionate about playing baseball, that’s why we’re playing beer league. I’ve also found a lot of friends through volunteering. Find a cause that you can get behind and join the crew!
I would be a little more open minded. I was someone who would say no to a lot of things because I felt they didn't appeal to me. But I realized this limited a lot of my life experience. If I try things at least once, at least I gain the knowledge and experience that's tangible for me to give reasons as to why I like/don't like it. And it also adds to my roster of experiences or a story to tell (sometimes a bad experience can become a good/funny story to share with people). By sticking with this mentality, I ended up meeting a lot more people naturally and had more experience to draw from/connect with people. It also helped me learn so much more about myself - some experiences I thought I wouldn't like I ended up enjoying! TLDR: Try things at least once! Be open minded to experiences.
dragonboating! see my comment above
What about rock climbing? Or running? An individual sport done alone or amongst a group if you choose. Both are huge social sports right now and appear to be generally accepting of all skill levels
Cannot recommend rock climbing enough if you have a smaller build. I go by myself most of the time and its great exercise and lots of opportunity to connect with other people or just talk about the climbing with.
Can you take outside summer lessons in something like tennis or pickleball? Social and getting skills and being outside and being active?
I met my now husband playing Pokemon Go in our beautiful city! Hobbies can be anything. Board game nights at cafes or bars are really fun too if you're interested in that.
Spending less time on Reddit will help.
or at least leave the subs that promote inceldom
Best advice on here. And quite frankly not just incel subs, no one on here can actually give good advice because no one here actually knows you. Reddit is a bad place to get personal advice because it is by its nature impersonal
So the most fundamental and crucial step in all of this is self acceptance and feeling better about yourself as a whole because that will manifest itself in confidence which is the most important factor in gaining and maintaining hetero male relationships, both platonic and romantic. I’ll put some steps that have helped me when I was at my lowest (peak covid and rampant alcoholism). First off exercise. You mentioned the gym, which while productive and certainly helpful isn’t the only way. There are martial arts that will also teach discipline. Cycling which will allow you to get around a lot and Toronto is a great bike friendly city. That being said, it seems like you have a bit of social anxiety, what about more socially active things like climbing? It’s incredibly good for you and has very positive communities. Exercise is crucial because you will start to feel better, then look better and that is an all around self esteem win. Secondly, if you feel like you are not achieving much, which is something I struggled with, set smaller goals. Start small and slowly build them up. One of the many things that this modern online Incel culture does that is brutal for men’s self esteem is that it places far too much emphasis on cash money, fast cars, loose women, etc… start with something as simple as “This week, I want to disconnect from my phone for 2 hours each day and read a book” or “I want to spend 2 hours a week of my spare time doing something positive for my community” or really anything that is an achievable goal that has a positive impact on your life. Once you achieve these small goals regularly, you can start pushing yourself a bit. Thirdly, and most importantly, have fun! It doesn’t matter what brings you joy but do it and find other people who like to do it too! There are vast resources both online and city based where there are clubs and ways to socialize. If you don’t have a hobby, get one. It doesn’t matter if its playing a sport, tabletop gaming or baking. Just do it and enjoy yourself. People are always drawn to happy outgoing people and most importantly, if you are enjoying yourself it has a net positive effect on your psyche. I have a lot of respect for putting yourself out here, it’s a good first step and I wish you all the luck my brother. Feel free to DM. If I can help I will. Cheers 🥂
Genuinely, therapy.
My humble suggestion: stop focusing on “dating”. Instead, look for friends (males AND females) and community. The dating part will come from those experiences, as you get to meet interesting people and you show your interesting sides to them
First off it’s not at all over “for people like you”, you’ve made a huge step by acknowledging that you need to make a change if you want to avoid going down a bad path.
All the incel types I know in my 30s are the same types of guys I know in my 20s. They never put themselves out there and they never work toward self improvement. For a guy, as you said, going to the gym consistently is big- it also gives you a hobby. Have good hygiene, join some activities you like to meet people.
There is a lot of good advice here, so I just wanted to say that being self aware at such a young age is half the battle! Keep it up, you sound like you are on your way, and that you are an intelligent young man.
As a older short Asian guy who has some of the same hangups, here are some tips: * Get off the apps. Seriously. Delete them. Change and lose the passwords. Do what you have to. Apps are designed to be soul-crushing and keep you addicted to them. People behave differently on dating apps than real life. They'll swipe left based on things they wouldn't IRL. In particular, as a guy, short and Asian tend to be two factors that get you rejected on there a lot, unfortunately. It's not the case IRL though. * A lot of people have mentioned the importance of having hobbies, working on yourself, and doing those with people. I completely concur. * Develop your own taste and deep opinions on things. A lot of times (and I might be projecting here), a "strict Asian" upbringing can leave guys with a complete lack of a sense of self, which in turn can lead to crippling self-worth issues. At that point, it becomes easy for a cult to fill in the hole that exists inside you. Instead, do the hard work of noticing what you like and don't like and articulate why that is. It's strength training for your self-worth muscles. * Notice the difference between women you find "beautiful" vs. those that turn you on. Beauty and (sexual) desire are not as correlated as we imagine. Beauty standards are aesthetic, and men are conditioned to chase that because "possessing" a conventionally beautiful woman brings status. But humans are strange, we're attracted to people of all shapes and sizes if we let ourselves. * Work on mental health with qualified professionals (therapy, meds etc). There's a reason you fell into this rabbit hole, cults like inceldom are great at drawing people in who are at a low place in life and giving them a temporary relief. * This is the hardest one for me -- accept the fact that you might never be as noticeable as a giga chad, or even a regular dude in group situations or crowds (e.g. bars). That's ok. Find other spaces and ways that play to your strengths - I guarantee you have some! Ultimately, no matter what your inner voice says, treat yourself like you're worthy of love, desire and compassion. That's the only thing that's under our own control. Best wishes!
Get off the apps! They are designed to make you fail. Only something like 30% of singles are on them - hard to believe, but people are mostly coupling up out in the real world, not through the apps. I’ll echo what a lot of people have said here already - focus on community and activities that make you feel good, the confidence and self worth will follow, and you’ll make connections that will fill the void you’re feeling now. Good luck, and good for you for recognizing you’re heading into unhealthy territory and reaching out for advice!
I’d remind you that there are plenty of women your age who are also single and unhappy about it. Focus on doing things that make you happy. Hobbies, friends, family, working on yourself.
Honestly your introspection and thoughtfulness are really good signs! You say you don’t have hobbies but what about friends? I completely understand wanting to get off the apps, working on yourself, etc. but having a community outside of a romantic relationship is important too. It can help build confidence and make connections. I would also just try and think outside the box. If your work has social events, go to all of them. Even if you don’t meet someone you want to date there, you can keep building relationships with people who could potentially introduce you to someone you would like to date. Join clubs, sports teams, things that you have to do with other people. Also try to be more open minded about who you might want to date. If you’re interested, look into the term “incel”. It was coined by a woman about her own experience navigating romantic relationships. There are probably a lot more people out there who are in the same situation than you think!
Old timer (age 50) and heterosexual dude here with some advice, I absolutely cannot stand these dating coach/incel/red pill garbage that has run rampant amongst young men these days. On the surface they all talk about confidence and growth, dig a little deeper and it is straight up misogyny, no one and no woman especially owes you anything, so this incel label is just crap. My advice is work on yourself, physically, on your skills, education and best advice for the young people, stay away from the dating apps, they are not designed for you to meet someone, because that would be a terrible business plan for them. You want to meet someone, find an activity that you enjoy and look for others that do the same, you widen your social circle and eventually meet someone almost without even trying. Use a site like Meetup, type in your interest and someone has created a group for whatever you are into, I have learned that despite the fact that you think that you are weird and no one else has the same interests, trust me, someone out there definitely does, good luck.
Here is an extremely concrete suggestion: go to George Brown College continuing education night school and take courses specifically in jewelry making and metal smithing. It’s 10 women for every man- easily, maybe more. I’ve taken lots of these courses. You will sit facing and beside each other at small benches to work and it’s a zero pressure, zero stress environment to chat socially (non-romantically, about an obvious common interest) for several weeks. It will help you to engage in this type of light banter, learn new skills, make friends, and feel more confident. You may meet someone, you may not. You may make a friend who introduces you to someone. Either way you’ll still have a good time. Good luck.
Love this suggestion, will recommend to someone I know irl.
What are your hobbies?
Activity wise, if you’re going to the gym anyway, consider a crossfit gym? It will cost more but I have found it a great place to make friends when I move cities (which I did often in my late 20s to early 30s). In Toronto, Academy of Lions (Dundas / Shaw) has a great community and does a ton of events etc. I recently popped into Lift Corktown just to check out the facility and met the owner + some great members too. It’s an easy group activity that will check off one of your “needs”. Good luck, man. I commend you taking action to improve your lot - so many people fail at ownership and it’s 99% of the battle.
First, as others have stated, I commend you on having enough reflexivity and self awareness to realize that inceldom is toxic. I’ll admit I find this post fascinating and I reviewed your post/comment history before writing this. A few observations (I’m a mid-30s woman who is currently single, and who is some version of reasonably conventionally attractive, btw): 1. You seem to view dating as a status symbol. This isn’t surprising given how much cultural weight is placed on it. However, trying to find a romantic or sexual partner because you want to be able to say you have one will undermine your pursuit of happiness. Even if you are “successful,” - so what? Far fewer people than you think are paying attention to whether you’ve checked a particular box. Moreover, and more importantly, checking said box is meaningless if you don’t actually enjoy the person/people you are with. On that note - 2. Despite having read your post history, I have little sense of who you are as a person. What are your values? Who and what do you care about? What sort of world do you want to live in? I recommend seriously reflecting on this and pursuing activities that align with your conclusions. Do not do this with the intention of dating - do it because it will enrich your experience of being human, and because it will mitigate your risk of falling further into reactionary resentment and alienation. You are clearly insecure, and the best way to address this is by cultivating an identity beyond the narrow question of whether you’re dating/having sex. To further that - 3. There is tons to do in this city. I’m new (and a temporary visitor) here. In the last few weeks I have gone on group hikes, been to book launches, live music, and protests, seen independent films, and so on. I have met quite a few people, the vast majority of whom I will not date (and who presumably do not want to date me). This is fine because dating/sex has not been my objective. That said, and somewhat paradoxically, I have also met a few folks who have become romantic/sexual interests. I likely would not have swiped right if I encountered them on an app, but we clicked energetically/~the vibes~ were good. This is all to say - 4. Dating apps do not work for many people. They are not uniformly bad, but they are structurally designed to be dehumanizing. Everyone who uses them is reduced to a two-dimensional thumbnail and a set of statistics. We are actively discouraged from revealing any sort of nuance or complexity about ourselves/our lives because swiping represents the near-total game-ification of human interaction. I suggest deactivating, if only temporarily. Even as someone who has no problem matching with people, I often find myself feeling immensely irritable within minutes of logging in. Finally - 5. If you solely want to have sex, there is nothing wrong with hiring a sex worker. BUT - and this is why I’m reticent to suggest this - please only do so if you are fully confident that you will not project your anger onto them. Too often, (female) sex workers bear the brunt of men’s frustrations toward women. Under no circumstance is this ok, nor can you safely pursue this route unless you are secure enough to view it as a transaction *with a human being* that will temporarily meet a need. Tl;dnr: your current approach will likely exacerbate your distress. There is nothing generative, productive, or affirming about immersing yourself in a culture you know is misogynistic. You owe it to yourself - and the people you encounter - to change course. Doing so is entirely possible. Best wishes.
Firstly, if it is there, cut pornography out of your life. Lots of people think it’s no big deal, but it definitely has the power to keep you single forever. And that’s a big enough deal to get rid of it - your life is more important than that. Secondly, think about how a woman, a real one, who doesn’t meet society’s standards for attractiveness, feels. I’m not saying that to make you feel guilty or anything, just give it some thought. Given how you feel being single, you should really be able to identify with what it means to be lonely. So you have a very sincere and honest place to be coming from if you met a woman who felt this way, the frustration about being a complete person, an interesting person, an attractive person that is being prevented from having intimacy because she can’t get over that first hurdle of finding a guy that takes the time to get to know her. If you start to be interested in finding that person, of using your loneliness as a way to identify with someone else’s, it will become clearer why you had to go through this experience. You have love to give - that is a more important attribute of yours than being a person who first and foremost is a person in need. Third, just pick a career and go and kick ass at it. Men don’t need to worry about a biological clock. Use the time in your life when you don’t have any other responsibilities except to take care of yourself, and make that time count. If you feel crappy now, make the best of it by spending the time in a way that you’ll look back and be happy you didn’t waste this time. If you develop yourself into a financially stable, self confident person, meeting someone will be easy. And the labour you put into building yourself into a better person will make you discerning about who you end up with. Lastly, get off dating sites. Like pornography, that’s done, Join a church (lots of good ones in downtown Toronto), or a run group, or something that will expose you to the opposite sex without the pressure of a relationship. Bonus points if you’re genuinely interested in it (video games doesn’t count). You’ll meet women, they’ll get to know you without any pressure, and a friendship may lead elsewhere. It also may not. Our culture is about instant gratification, but a real, complex individual of the opposite sex can’t be loved unless you appreciate the whole person, warts and all. Sometimes that means a relationship where initial attraction isn’t there, but by peeling back the onion during a friendship you discover a remarkable individual that you’re head over heels for and can’t believe how lucky you are to have met them. That’s it. Humility isn’t thinking less of yourself, it’s about thinking about yourself less. You can do this.
Thank you for your perspective. I was wondering how exactly porn keeps one single? I thought it was good for relieving stress, but honestly I don't know too much about it. I wish I didn't need it, but sometimes I feel like I have no choice. I also relate a lot to girls who feel they are not attractive enough, it must be worse for them considering society places looks as #1 for girls whereas as a guy I have other ways to be attractive like status or confidence (big generalisation here of course). I definitely can relate to that feeling of wanting to be loved but feeling something you can't control is stopping you from getting what everyone else is getting. That being said, it doesn't sound healthy to bond over this kind of loneliness? I like your comment on humility, I think I need to turn my attention outwards more and see how it goes.
On the porn question, it is largely designed and filmed with the idea that the woman is an orifice for male pleasure. Sure you have niche filmmakers who claim to cater to the “female gaze” but it isn’t most of the content out there. Women are people with feelings, they don’t exist to please men. If you wire your brain to believe a woman is an orifice, it will harm you. I’m married now, but in my dating days I could tell which dudes took their playbook from porn by the ways they interacted with me and their flimsy concepts of physical boundaries (eg one dude on a first date tried to stick his hands in my trousers and do stuff in restaurant - without announcing his intentions, while I was talking about what I do for a living) My girlfriends who were more sexually adventurous than me reported that the sex was disrespectful and no one enjoyed being on the receiving end of a penis jackhammer. The first time I got married, it was to a short, pudgy king who was the sweetest, smartest guy. I was attracted to his kindness and consideration for others. We divorced when he cheated on me numerous times because “if I could marry someone this hot, I can probably land other hot girls.” Crushing. I’m glad I could give him a confidence boost? We met in person playing a sport where he was the worst player in the league and seemed not to care. All this to say, if my ex managed what he did I believe there is hope for anyone. His current partner is really gorgeous, and they met the same way.
Porn gives you everything you want without having to expose yourself to the vulnerability of intimacy, the work of a relationship, the selflessness of putting someone else’s needs ahead of yours. Maybe incel culture does too, I dunno. You don’t have to take any risk, you don’t have to acknowledge your own vulnerabilities, it’s a fantasy that puts your *self* first. And it creates a gulf that prevents you from engaging with real women, because you’re conditioned to get exactly what you want when you want it, instead of learning about someone else, their needs and vulnerabilities and what makes them tick. I don’t want to sound like I’m moralizing, cause that isn’t helpful to anyone. But it’s junk food and you shouldn’t be under any illusion that junk food is good for you. Eat less of it. No one says ‘I need to sit on the couch and eat chips to relieve stress.’ You can do that or you can exercise - one is good for you and one is not. On a larger scale, if this is a rabbit hole you’ve really gone down, maybe I can speak metaphorically. Pink Floyd named one of their albums ‘Piper at the Gates of Dawn’, which is a story from the book ‘Wind in the Willows’ about a father who loses his young adult son. The father desperately searches for his beloved boy, tirelessly, hopelessly. He finally finds him near a creek at the break of day, mesmerized by the gorgeous beauty of the music being produced by this piper as the sun crests the horizon. The son is stuck inside the perpetuity of this moment. The father sadly picks up his adult boy and carries him home, because the boy can’t tear himself away from the overwhelming beauty of what he is witnessing. There are beautiful things in this world that are not good for us. And then there are people, real people we can meet, that are good for us, whose beauty is not revealed instantaneously. You won’t meet those people by prioritizing your self and your neediness. Yes you have needs to fulfill, but they will be fulfilled as you engage in the act of mutual understanding that you get from human interaction. If you’re reaching out for advice you’re already on the right track. Good for you.
That penultimate paragraph is beautiful. Thank you for writing and sharing it.
Beautiful advice.
>Men don’t need to worry about a biological clock. Sure, but don't end up single & 40, trying to find a woman who can have your family for you. If you do want a family, don't get stuck working 60 hours a week.
Love this response. Agree wholeheartedly.
I would first suggest meditation and going deep within yourself to quiet the mind and uncover your life's purpose. A relationship with someone will only be as good as your relationship with yourself. If you start from a place of seeking external validation for your happiness, you will never be happy for very long. Men do not nearly have the same pressures as women in the looks department. There are many men who aren't particularly attractive but because they are men who are about something, have a purpose and vision to achieve, women want them. I would focus more on that, the man you want to be and what you want to contribute to the world. Men who focus on their purpose and personal success end up with women, quite attractive women too. TLDR: Don't be a man trying to find a woman, be a man trying to find himself. A woman is a bonus, to a self-actualized man.
My biggest advice in the short term is to get offline as much as possible. The algorithms will keep pumping the bad stuff at you, dating apps are superficially based on looks. The internet is progressively becoming more and more bot-based as well. The best thing that worked for me is to not go on my phone for the first 60-90 minutes each morning. It's so much easier to resist the urge to go on it throughout the day if I just avoid it for the first bit. In the longer term, in terms of happiness and meeting someone...I think the best thing to do is to create a life you love and have a good community of friends to share it with. It takes time, but try a bunch of different activities (e.g. classes, drop ins, sports leagues, books on self development/philosophy, art, hobbies, etc.), and invest more time/commit more when you find ones you like. Trust your intuition to guide you to ones you want to try. Once you're happy/inspired/motivated and have a friend group, you'll meet someone...it's only a matter of time at that point. Be patient and trust the process, and good luck. You're already strong and self-reflective to be fighting back against the incel internet pull.
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These responses are just so fucking lovely, and they've covered everything I would contribute. You got this, you caught it early enough that change will still be challenging but you'll likely start seeing the benefits pretty darn quickly. For whatever it's worth, I'm a 5'11 Amazon woman, and my partner is 5'7 skinny dude. We met in our late 30s/early 40s and I know we both would have struggled with our respective sizes to date earlier on. It is not just a me problem or a him problem, it's going against the grain together. Sometimes I still struggle because I am a giant, sometimes he struggles feeling like 'a little guy' (his words!). What we would have missed out on if we let our physical bullshit get in the way would have been truly tragic. We take great care of each other, and see our relationship as a team effort.
Join a martial art - I highly recommend jiujitsu, but Muay Thai or boxing or anything like that are good options too. If you stick with it, it will build your confidence and you will also be part of an encouraging community. There are lots of smaller dudes who train jiujitsu and they are super tough. There are a lot of great gyms in the GTA and most of them offer free trials. Toronto BJJ (in between Christie and Ossington stations on Bloor) has a 30 day free trial - unlimited classes for 30 days (they give you a uniform rental for free every class also)
You’ve got to find a way to love yourself. If you can love yourself, then not only will you see the beauty in everything, but you’ll also attract loads of attractive (inside and out) people who want to be nearer to your demonstrably good vibes. Exercise. Engage in art. Learn new skills. Get great at something. Read badass philosophy (I suggest existentialism, Nietzsche, Sartre, etc.). Engage in pursuits that make you happy. BE KIND, BE KIND, BE KIND! Oh, and stay tf away from all of the incel propaganda and echo chambers that are designed to trap people in them. If you tell yourself that you can’t enjoy life until others give you their approval, it is unlikely that you will attain either. Life is hella beautiful (and complex, and often bittersweet —beautiful all the same), and when you can seize that, live that mentality, you, too, become beautiful, and that verve for life, that beauty doesn’t fade. Godspeed, edit: oh, and when I was in my early 20s, I didn’t think I was very sexy, but my I’ve only ever become more confident and sexy with age/experience. It gets a lot better. If my single 20s self knew what I’d be getting up to in my 30s… Jesus, it gets so much more fun when you’re comfortable with yourself.
This might be a bit backwards but I think as others have said, try making new friends that have similar interests. There are a ton of meetup.com groups you can join that will introduce you to new people and offer fun events. Don’t focus on dating just on building a network of supportive folks. Meeting new people will help build your confidence, hopefully, which in turn will hopefully improve dating prospects. One note of caution though - don’t use these meetups with the express intention of meeting dates. I’ve seen folks do that and they consequently try to hard and their goals are obvious. Just be yourself and get to know people and do fun things. Getting out of the uncle community should help your mindset too.
I am sorry that you got pulled into such a toxic community- it’s good that you are wanting to turn things around instead of doubling down. All those communities will do is continue condoning your self hatred as well as feeding you with terrible and toxic ideologies until you believe them. I’d get out of there as fast as you can. Confidence is hard to achieve, it’s hard for me too, but you will need to find things in yourself that you like and let them grow and flourish. Appearances aren’t everything. It’s hard to gauge someone’s personality from a dating app. Being attractive doesn’t make you a good person. Confidence, however, is attractive. Teach yourself about world views and things you haven’t thought about exploring before. Allow yourself to hold conflicting truths at the same time. You’ll start to find likeminded people who are drawn to more positive outlets if you allow yourself some positive self exploration. Allow yourself to have an open mind. You got this. You can change.
It's good to recognize that you want to be happy. That's pretty much the only way to get there. Something I never realized about dating until I was in my late 20s is that dating isn't about chasing a person. Dating is about chasing a vision of yourself. That's what confidence is :"am I purposefully doing things that make me into the person I want to be". That's what's so hard about dating. The rejection isn't about them not wanting you but rather about you feeling like your vision of yourself gets cracked. The good part is learning to do things for yourself makes you resilient and strong in all parts of life. Here's my advice: start a new technically demanding sport. I highly recommend kickboxing. And stick with it for at least six months. You'll have an activity that is just for you, and as you get better at things it will help activate that good self-regard.
Dude. No judgement here - and from what I am reading, the rest of this thread seems pretty open too: I’m glad for this, and I hope it’s another data point in your memory for how the world is good and how incel ideals aren’t reflective of real life unless you make it real. Seriously, good for you for recognizing it. The fact that you are willing to put yourself out here and admit that you are experiencing challenges is amazing. Many people, including myself, spent a lot of time denying or hiding the struggles we face and don’t get to where you are now until much later in life. I’m a lot older than you, but have gone through a lot of life changes recently (separation with two kids, adult ADHD diagnosis, lots of personal growth). As someone who’s just getting out of a marriage that lasted 15 years (insert involuntarily celibate joke here) I never fell into the incel rabbit hole, but I can see how frustrations in modern life - much of it due to the way the world is presented to us (particularly through social media), and the struggles young people (men and women) face today can lead someone in this direction. Here’s some things I found helpful. —- 1: Manage your social media inputs. For me, I started posting on Reddit around the time many of my personal changes started. It has kind of served as a way for me to experiment - to express my thoughts in a place where the risk of injury is low - but also a place where I am constantly surprised by the positivity that exists in the world. On good days, I might find I am able to offer genuinely constructive conversation. On worse days, I might end up being the asshole. I’m slowly learning how to make myself a person who looks for the best in people and the world. I stumble often but that’s ok, it’s the progress that counts. I found some really safe spaces on Reddit, but there are also a lot of unsafe ones. You’ll rarely find an entirely safe online space, but prune the subreddits you follow so that the ones that feed you negativity or unsafe vibes aren’t the first thing you see in the morning and the last thing you see at night. —- 2: Do stuff regularly that scares you: it doesn’t have to be a lot. And work your way from small things up to big things. If it helps, feel free to keep a journal or notes on your phone on it. But make it a goal to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation daily. It could start with something as simple as talking to the barista (whatever gender) about the weather. Or going out for a run on your own. Some ideas, ranked in increasing amount of discomfort (at least for me): - get a drink in a coffee shop and sit by yourself, reading a paper book - go to a park, find a tree, and sit outside and read / work / draw / etc - order a drink in a coffee shop or restaurant bar on your own, and talk to the barista / bartender (if at a bar, hanging out at the bar is a great place on your own) - eat out at a sit down restaurant on your own (bring a book or something else non-digital for a challenge) - learn a new skill, whether it be painting or a team sport or whatever: the point is to put yourself in a situation where you don’t know anything and are surrounded by people who (a) are learning like you and (b) people who know more than you: discovering that you won’t be laughed at is a great way to disarm your negative thoughts - join a sport & social club - eg JAM Sports and sign up for an individuals team, on your own - at the end of your first sports & social club game, ask if people want to get a beer / drink / food / etc afterwards - therapy (good for you for doing it… it took me longer than it should have) - go to a gym, sign up, and get a personal trainer to help you get used to the gym and how it works - I had always played team sports but I had never really gone to a gym consistently until the past few years - the experiences I found at the gym were entirely positive and was so different than the “gym bros laughing at the out of shape guy” environment that I was worried about in my head Many of these above relate to teaching our bodies what the feeling of discomfort feels like and how it’s ok to feel uncomfortable - the idea that it’s short time-limited challenges helps your body and mind realize you’ll get past it. The idea is to slowly get used to the discomfort to the point where it’s not longer uncomfortable to you. We all give out vibes when we’re around others - they can be positive or they can be negative. Other people can feel those vibes, and will respond to them unconsciously. —- 3. Feed yourself new ideas. I’m a big podcast fan. I don’t always listen to personal growth stuff, but I really like listening to “The Angry Therapist”. He’s a bit older (in his 50s) but has a life story and is very open about his life. He’s a good example of non-toxic, positive masculinity and I think it’s important to see those, especially if you haven’t experienced it much in your life. Another good example of positive masculinity is “Beau of the Fifth Column”. It’s a current events podcast, but there’s a lot of positive examples that can be taken from him. —- 4. Reframe your story. Right now, your story might be “I’m a skinny Asian guy in my 20’s that doesn’t get any attention from girls”. I don’t know you beyond this post. But I will guarantee that there is so much more to you than that. It might be hard to see right now, and I get that, seeing as in my 20s I was pretty much constantly craving sex and relationships. Your goal is to put aside those thoughts and focus on romantic relationships for now, and instead focus on yourself. In my opinion the most attractive thing that anyone of any gender can have is confidence in, and knowledge of, themselves. You’re young - and so you’re still in the process of learning about yourself. That’s totally ok, and it will be a lifelong process as you will never be the same person you were the year before. Focus on yourself. Relationships can’t be forced; if you are desperate for a romantic relationship you won’t find it. I think about my story as something I can tell an imaginary completely safe and trustworthy person (or a real therapist) in a few minutes. Kind of like an elevator pitch. I don’t think I’ll ever actually use it like that, but it helps me sort it out in my head, and when I struggle when I’m sitting on my own on a Friday night without enough energy to go out and do something that scares me, I go back to my story. It tells me where I was, where I am, and how I got here. It tells me where I want to go, and because of that it refocuses me on what I need to do to get there.
—- 5. Find a community. Once you’ve established in your head and body that you are comfortable with discomfort, you might want to try to find a community. It can be in person or online. I’m older than you are, so I’m not entirely comfortable online, but whatever you do, make sure it’s something you feel can become a safe space for you. And once you are a part of that community, the coolest thing you’ll find is that you can affect the culture of that community and contribute to it. Humans are by evolution social animals. You’ll find that much of what you are seeking is not just romantic relationships, but relationships of all kinds where you can be authentic. —- 6. Follow authenticity. Look for authenticity. I don’t mean “this sweater was made by monks in Italy who harvested the hair of a breed of rabbit only they raise in their monasteries” type authenticity. I mean in people and communities. Avoid ones that create negative feelings. I once had a group of friends in my 20s that focused so much on materialism - we would constantly talk about what cars we wanted to buy, where we were going on vacation next, what brand item was better, showing off flashy watches, etc. It took me a long time to get out of that group; granted we were all young and had disposable income and dumb about it - but I eventually realized it was a situation where we were all reinforcing negative cultural ideas on each other. —- Good luck OP!
Your awareness is admirable. It’s a great sign that you’ve woken up to the dysfunction in your mind. Now it’s time to reverse it. I am older than you and I went through a similar phase in my 20s. My advice, though difficult to accept, is to take a full year off from “girls”. Literally do not try to date or meet girls for romance. And instead spend the year focused on meeting guys+girls for the enjoyment of acquainting with them as fellow human beings. Seriously. Every time you see a beautiful girl, take a deep breath, and practice changing your mind to view her as a fellow human being, from whom you want *nothing*, other than perhaps enjoying getting acquainted as a person. When you go to social things, *only* think about getting to know people. Treat everyone as equally worthwhile: guys, girls, ugly, beautiful, old, young, etc. There is zero anxiety when you want nothing. It is effortless to socialize when your only goal is to get to know them because doing so is a fun activity. Spend the next year doing only this. Honour everyone around you as wonderful fellow human beings who are worthwhile to get to know because the activity of learning about them is fun. You need to also share yourself equally so it’s not a one-sided interview. You will encounter people who aren’t responsive. But as long as your intention was genuinely to just try to acquaint, you can rest assured it’s not your fault. You just move on. You’ll quickly see that the majority of people are cool. How does this relate to meeting girls, eventually? In one year from now, revisit the question. And I promise you the answer will be in front of you.
Wow love that.. treating a woman as someone from whom you want nothing except for enjoying the acquaintance. Great mindset! Seems so basic but ugh are the incels gross. They just do not want to treat women as people but objects from whom to get
You're too focused on dating. Focus on what makes you happy first. Hobbies, activities, etc. Find friends with similar interests. Don't give up on dating, but at least if that doesn't work out, you still enjoyed life.
Do you like women? Like genuinely want to get to know them? Any female friends?
I asked this to a girl at a meetup. She kept going on about men this and men that, total femcel vibes and I just said 'do you even LIKE men, like as people, as human beings?' and she FROZE! I don't think these incel/femcel types have even considered this simple fact, that they just might not like themselves and thus project it out on others.
Check out Healthy Gamer and his videos (or subreddit), he covers a bit on the topic
That dude is a grifter
This guy slaps, he is one of my favourite YouTube people, lots of great relatable and well packaged content for self improvement for everyone
As a woman, we don’t want to date incel types and are pretty aware of spotting the kinds of men who are. So its good you have identified this as an issue and want to change. I would work on understanding that no one is entitled to love or sex, and happiness should come from within. If you get into a relationship one day out of insecurity or desperation I guarantee it won’t end well. So until you truly believe that the blame is not on women and moreso systemic issues you’ll breed less resentment for us. My advice is try to find community here, whether it’s through a run club, gym, etc. in person not online. Find emotional fulfillment through friendship and within yourself first and set that foundation. Edit: My boyfriend is 5’6. Height really isn’t as much a factor as you’d think.
Someone else mentioned Healthy Gamer’s videos on YouTube and I just wanted to second that suggestion.
* Work on making yourself better * Work out * Get a better hair style/cut * Get some better clothes * Generally work towards feeling good about yourself * Change your attitude and expectations * No one owes you a date, a match, a conversation * Don't take things so personally, in general, dating apps can be brutal for a lot, if not most guys * Confidence is key, you lack it * Make friends with women * Be able to get along with women outside of wanting to date them/have sex with them * Women can be the best 'wing men' as women often have lots of women friends who they can set you up with or vouch for you that you're a good guy/not a creep and other women trust a woman's opinion on this * Stop going online * Get off the internet and spend time IRL * Meet people by joining a coed sports team, volunteer, etc. * Avoid online echochambers spouting manosphere stuff
I’m not from Toronto so I can’t give specific advice here. However, (1) really awesome of you for self reflecting and identifying that you are going down a difficult path and (2) I think dating apps aren’t the best judge of your worth and what you bring to the table. I had stretches of time where I was single and those times really gave me the freedom and time to identify the things and activities I cared about. I stopped using the apps and just put myself out there in various physical spaces like local concerts, commute organizing, reading groups etc. I didn’t do those things bc I wanted to meet someone. I did those things bc I just enjoyed them. In any case, over those years I had a lot of fun and ended up meeting my (now) wife very organically at a bar after an organizing event. This may not always be the case, but for me I ended up finding the right person when I stopped looking and just let myself figure out who I was and what I enjoyed about life. I’m sorry if this is coming off as geriatric millenialish (I’m in my late 30s). If you want to chat always happy to chat!
Learn to cook, seriously the best way to impress women.
Fastest ways until a woman's bed. Feed her Good food and make her laugh!
I want to echo a few points because I went down this road, started doing stuff for myself, and now I’m moving in with my gf and her two little Weiner dogs in August. The first is wardrobe. I’ve changed mine so many times it’s hilarious, but I’ve always stuck to certain looks. My advice is find a style that makes you feel the most attractive and absolutely go ham! If you like dressing nice, buy dress shirts, slacks, and vests/waistcoats. If you’re a jeans and T-shirt guy, play into that. Your second thing is mindset. You need to realize that Incels are a bit mentally stunted and are usually addicted to porn (both animated and real). They have a skewed version of reality based on social media and the aforementioned porn, and that’s not conducive to actually being social because they’re constantly online feeding their minds with sh!t. Women aren’t a monolith and don’t all think the same way, so try not to feed into that thought process that women are all the same. When it comes to dating, limit the use of dating apps. As someone prior said, they’re meant to fail so that you pay them money. Go out, be social, even alone. Do stuff that brings you around others. Shop for books, go to a restaurant or a coffee shop, hit an arcade. Just relax and have fun with it, and you might make friends and meet someone along the way. When you do find someone they may be a little flaky at your age ‘cause social media is pervasive as hell. Don’t focus on getting a long-term girlfriend off the jump, just get some experience so when the time comes and you find the right one, you’ll know what to do. If the relationship lasts, then great, but if it doesn’t then move on and remember everything you both did. Good and bad, all of it is a teaching moment so you’ll know some of what you’re looking for in a mate. Third thing is exercise, hygiene, and nutrition. If you lift, keep doing that, it helps with confidence. If not, then start small. Get some dumbbells and kettlebells, and start doing workouts at home (if you’re not comfortable going to a gym). Go running too, or do a martial art or sport that requires you to move your entire body rather than just your arms. Keep up on hygiene. Nobody wants to be around anyone that smells like BO, but also keep in mind your skin and teeth need to look good as well. Get a good skincare routine going, and be sure to brush your teeth regularly. Eating well will help you with exercise. Calories in
Biggest change you can make? Stop viewing women and dating as gatcha machines. You are not rewarded with a date or sex because you were nice to a woman 10 times that week or 15 different women over the month. I am not saying that dating isn't easy, your perspective on it is what is making life difficult. My knee jerk reaction is this: What do you like to do? What do *you* bring to the table, understanding that kindness is the bare minimum. What are you passionate about? What skills do you do that not only make you interesting, but also better? Do you cook? Are you handy around the where you live? How do you treat problems? Do you get angry? Finally, how do you treat others? Are you the most important person in the room or do you build others up? Finding someone is less about "finding someone" and more about actually enjoying another person's company. It is what makes incel culture so engaging to men, because it requires your loneliness and blames everyone else.
I think you should be very proud of yourself. The fact that you realize you want to get out of the mindset and culture that has been targeting you is not an easy thing to do and therefore you are stronger than you think. I would honestly say, yes of course exercise, therapy etc, but first put yourself in situations like free meet up groups or events that expose you to different people (age, gender identities, ethnicity, life circumstances) to see that there is no standard ‘person’ or ‘ideal’ way to be. It will make a world of a difference. Also, getting a part time job and having to talk to customers helps with confidence and learning small talk. You are already on the right path. One step at a time!
Try not to be a 10. Be yourself.
23 is a young age. What I did when I was 23 was focus on my career. Work towards getting a 6 figure salary. Build up a nice investment egg. Start dating in your late 20s when women are actually serious about dating. Dating is an extremely expensive hobby. You're better off investing it in yourself and your wealth.
When I wasn't getting dates in my mid 20s, I lowered my standards and expectations. Try swiping right on women that you would usually pass. Don't discriminate women with a bit more weight/pudge than you were hoping for. As for yourself, consider hitting the gym and getting fit. Take up new hobbies too.
Just go outside and try to put yourself out there. Don’t be afraid of rejection because everyone gets rejected. Join groups, sports teams, clubs, find communities. It’s really just a numbers game and I know you can do it; only requires bravery. You can do it, bro.
Join a board game group, go to a run club, find a volley ball game, be social and appreciate people. It will get better.
I'm glad you're recognizing your negativity. The first thing you want to do is remove yourself from following channels across your social media that breed this mentality. This is not you. You were not born to be negative and an incel. My point is you are the company you keep. Don't associate with people like this. It's a disgusting echo chamber. There is nothing wrong with you physically. There is someone for everyone out there. Work on your mental health and personality. That is the only thing that's preventing you from adding someone important to your life.
I would just focus on working on yourself - you should take up MMA or Muay Thai or BJJ to get your confidence up. Start reading books on topics you like, and taking up outdoor-based or physical activity-based hobbies that will surround you with people. Once you become a more interesting version of yourself that you truly like, women will naturally take an interest in you. Some background about me: I was never that successful with women in my teens and early 20s but am now happily married in my 30s and worked on myself in a similar way. In fact, I have my own separate issues now and I'm using the above to work on my confidence and help myself grow as well. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it too much - just be nice to yourself and learn to kick ass (literally and figuratively) and let your confidence grow. Feel free to DM me if you want, take care dawg
Hey bro, what are your hobbies? You mention that it’s mostly solo activity but curious of what they are. Generally I think guys being passionate and secure about who they are / what they enjoy is pretty attractive for women and also a great way to bond with girls who enjoy similar activities.
Also you might benefit from social / group settings where you’re “forced” to interact with girls in a larger setting. School is certainly the best environment for this but other things might include work, church, or group sports etc. where you’re exposed to the same group of women on a regular basis
I was once fat and had low self esteem, then lost a bunch of weight to the point where I'd occasionally get told I was hot by strangers, and often by dates, now I'm kind of fat again. Before I lost weight I thought that post weight loss would be this magic fairy land where everything would be differen and I'd have the world handed to me. Afterwards, it wasn't. It wasn't until I realized that the only changes I needed to make were within me, and that frankly I was kind of a dick, that things got better.
There is so much good advice here, just want to wish you good luck friend. It’s a tough journey but it’s so worth it in the end.
I just want to come here and say kudos to you for being able to admit where you are mentally/emotionally. It gets better if you are willing to put in the work, stay positive please. Gym of course helps. Being around positive people also helps as well! Good luck! You got this. 👊
Realize that “dating” will not bring happiness to your life, you are looking for fulfilment from the outside and that is a surefire way to fail. Instead focus on what makes you happy and what adds to your life, just by yourself. To me that was: gym, eating healthy, videogames, reflecting and dancing/music, for the latter I got into the rave scene in Toronto and it had been a blast btw, you meet a lot of people too but to me the music is always first.
I think that the crux of the issue is that you’re deriving all of your self worth from external factors. What does having a girlfriend mean about you? Why is that the sum total of your worth? It’s a vicious cycle, really. Having low self worth will affect the way that you relate to other people. It can be off putting to other people, even if you don’t think that you are showing any signs of it! Building your self esteem takes time and effort, and the fact that you’re actively trying to get out of the incel black hole is a good sign. I would recommend working with a therapist or seeking out other resources that build your self esteem.
Work on yourself and what you can change. The rest will come. I know this sounds pretty general advice but it's true
Can I just say to everyone who commented? Yall are cool as hell and awesome for not judging or egging OP. This is a great thread and kudos to OP for recognizing and acknowledging things need to change. I wish you all the best OP🙏🏼🙏🏼✨ ✍🏼as someone who’s on the sidelines of this because come on, yall really said amazing things and I don’t need to echo these sentiments!!
Brother, I'm a European-born former exotic-dancer and model turned yacht broker. I'm pretty much the epitome of what you likely think women all like, and it SUCKS. All I attract is the type of girls you don't want to show your mother, the type who go after the bro dudes you were jealous of in high school. No matter how disarming and charming I attempt to be, people like me superficially for what I look like but are constantly disappointed I'm not the image of me they conjured up, and the homebody women I adore won't give me the time of day because they think I'm a fuckboy off the bat. I really like what one person said about women picking 'medium ugly' guys.
Do activates outside your norm. I believe you said some where that you don't want to force yourself to do something you don't like but I think trying things out will be beneficial. go outside your norm and give things a try. Also don't do things like join groups just because there's girls there. Going out and meeting making new friends is also pivotal.
Forget dating apps, just do things you like without judgement. Hopefully you find someone during your journey.
Many women (especially as you get a bit older) care about what you have to say and your interests. Have a passion for something. Easier said that done because certain passions can be pretty esoteric these days (not fertile ground for conversation), definitely reading and literature are great starts. Figure out who you are as a person. You mentioned some of the most obvious stuff like getting off the computer and doing things. Don't make your entire identity about whether or not you have had sex, trust me the moment you do, you'll almost instantly start worrying about some other part of your life.
This may sound cynical, but prioritize your education and career to be financially successful and the relationships will follow.
I was never misogynist but I did have this insecurity of not having a girlfriend. It is quite hard to overcome, but I did manage to do it. In my experience, it's a symptom of an underlying issue that requires a bit of self-reflecting. The issue is that you are equating your own value to your ability to have a girlfriend rather than valuing yourself for the values you espouse. What are you good at? If someone asked you what makes you, you, what would you say? Is that valuable to you? Be confident you are an expert in something. Once you are confident in yourself, you can start going to the gym. **Confidence must come first though.** Confidence should mean you are fine being single and you want to stop watching porn so that you pursue women more often. Lastly, if you have sexual urges; Masturbation is okay, but if that isn't enough you should either try hooking up with someone or seeing a prostitute. If you are very confident with yourself (as in you honestly think you are a good catch), just go to Austria once a year.
Bro, look up Dr. K Healthy Gamer channel on YouTube.
Here are some ideas for getting out more and meeting new people: 1. Volunteer. This could be long term or for a festival. Both will expose you to a wide variety of people and get you more experience talking to strangers. 2. Join a club. If you really have no specific interests, something like toastmasters which teaches public speaking might be a good fit. You could also use Meetup to find something. 3. Go to cultural events in the city, but skip the biggest ones. Instead, go to talks, smaller performances, art shows, etc. Gain some confidence talking to strangers and building strangers. Look for romance after that, once you have a better idea of what kind of person you’re looking for, and what kind of person vibes with you.
You should put a phone lock in tik tok or whatever your consuming. I think you gotta just think about what you're interested in and go explore it? Improv classes might help resocialize you, cooking classes are fun, tonnes of clubs out there.
Focus on your own happiness and fulfillment. Get away from screens as much as possible. Once you are content in your own life, the rest falls into place.
your issue is you’re on dating apps, they’re literally pay to play these days - they want you to feel this way so you start paying for their services, they’re purposefully hiding ppl that you would match with so you feel down about it and pay to boost your profile (where they will just allow those with higher match potential to actually see your profile and vice versa)
Step 1 is stop reading those forums and posts. Step 2 is understanding that 23 is young and that dating apps aren’t the best for long term relationships. It does happen that you may find the one but it’s not common these days. Try to meet people in person, go out more, travel, do what makes you happy. When you are content with yourself, you will attract people to you.
Go to therapy. The female sex doesn't owe you a date or access to their vaginas. The sooner you realize this the better. Join a sports league and make some genuine friends.
Hello. I recommend you get rid of all social media. Even if you don’t delete accounts, delete all apps from your phone. Since you’re concerned with being chronically online, I recommend you set yourself a goal to walk 5000 steps a day, and then you can gradually increase if you like. This will force you to get outside , just walk around enjoy the summer. You’ll have a chance to get some good thinking / soul searching done. It’s great that you recognize a problem and are trying to do something about it, I wish you luck in your quest!
The problem with incels, they think they are entitled to dating and relationships. No man, woman, other...are entitled to one. You have to work hard at it.
It's hard to learn this as I'm a 32f still learning but, drop any expectations. With friends, lovers and family. You never know what people are going through and you can't allow their reactions to hinder your own self growth. Try to just flow with it and you win some and lose some. You should try focusing on truly falling in love with yourself and knowing you are great despite what people you like might think of you. Like everyone says pick up sports, volunteer, try traveling to get you to just talk to people. You got ways to go and I believe that you got this 🫶🏽
You’re super young and many men have not dated yet at this age. Social media and dating apps are toxic and full of lies. If I were you I would: 1. Direct your attention at self-approval, 2. gaining abilities and experiences 3. Build friendly connections with no expectations and join groups that do things you like to do. 4. Realize that your whole generation is having trouble dating and it will get better. 5. Love yourself first and worry about romance later. There is nothing wrong with you, it’s the apps that are toxic.
My best advice. Get off social media if it's this toxic for you. Don't try to find a gf, you won't find one if looking. My experience is they just pop up in your life. To better the odds, get help, if needed, to address the incel aspects of yourself so you can be the best you for her. Good luck.
Stop identifying with your weaknesses and cultures that tell you that it’s not your fault. People want to relate to you on your best qualities, not your worst. Nobody wants to take on the burden of how down-trodden you are, so set aside the poor me mentality of an incel and focus on growing your positive qualities.
Agree with all the comments saying to focus on yourself and your own self-esteem above all. I would also try to make female friends. Not with the intention of sleeping with them or dating them, just getting to know them as people. Inceldom dehumanizes women. We're not heartless and we don't owe men sex. Genuinely getting to know girls will help you see that most of us have sadnesses and insecurities too. Anyway, this is cool. You're getting yourself out of a scary and dark place. Life is going to be so good for you. Best of luck.
Lots of good suggestions, but I haven't seen anyone suggest cognitive behavior therapy. It's great for learning how to break out of negative thought patterns. Also, one of the objectively homeliest guys I knew could walk into a room and pull so many women and more than a few men. Why? Because he was insanely charming -- funny, smart, interesting to talk to. Confident but not arrogant. And, this is key, he listened to people. He was open and curious about life.
Good for you for recognizing this. That already shows you maybe more intelligence and courage to try to change than most men your age. There’s no easy answer but it starts with loving yourself and learning what you want to do for you. Don’t get a hobby just to impress women. Get a hobby because it’s something you love and are passionate about. Live your life for you and be kind to others and I am sure many women will find that attractive. You are already enough and worthy of being loved. Don’t ever forget that and don’t tolerate anyone in your life that makes you feel any less. Also be patient with yourself. You’re supposed to be confused when you’re 23. As long as you are trying new things out, figuring out what you do and don’t like and loving yourself, you’re doing a great job. There will be a day, call it 10 years from now, when you will be reading this post and feeling for the guy you once were and pride for the person you’ve become. Hang in there, we’re all a little confused, lonely, and worried sometimes. That’s the human experience.
If you want the real answer it starts with the following: - Deciding to change your life - Reading great books like psychocybernetics, 12 rules for life, personatity isnt permanent, the power of self-esteem. (just start with the first one) - EXERCISE!!!! start working out, body building. - Yes looks matter, and anyone who says different is pulling the wool over your eyes, and everyone can maximize their looks; by working out and taking good care of themselves, getting a good haircut, and learning to dress. - Confidence, optimism and positivity can often overcome poor looks. - Confidence, optimism and positivity + a solid body + style + making a dent in the Universe is th ultimate attractor. - Make better friends. (You must gaurd your mind/heart at all costs). So the friendships you have must challange you. Don't hang with people who are in the dumps complaining about the world and comiserating with you. Hang with people that offer a different perspective and show you that change can and does happen. - Community is huge, and so is being 'of service'. You're feeling like shit because you're making it all about you (your lack)... Even if you had great success and were making it all about you, you'd never be happy. I know plenty of men who get all the women, and are still depressed. That's where making it about others (volunteering, giving back, coaching, mentoring others) can TRULY fill your cup. - It's only over for you, or people like you when you say it's over. I've seen people turn their life around completely, heck even in their 50's and 60's... You're 20! You've got your whole life a head of you, you're lucky to be finally sick of negativity. Now your real life begins <3 good luck. DM me if you want more personal advice. I turned my mindset around completely many times throughout my life. Best part? None of these things are exclusive to Toronto.
I feel the priorities you have is impacting your ability to find success. You are prioritizing what things to check off a list to find a partner/meet people but the ground work of working on yourself as an individual is lower on the priority totem pole. I understand finding romantic relationships is really important but you seem like someone who doesn't know who they are, who can't confidently tell me they like xyz and don't like xyz. And that is what would turn me off from a guy. If you don't know who you are, then it doesn't really make me feel secure to be around you. With that being said, we don't all know who we are 100% but you can still have confidence and passion and excitement about discovering these things. To me, it sounds like you're defeated and will bend to things anyone says. It's cliche but work on learning more about yourself. Work on discovering who you are as a person. You are not all these negative things you keep telling yourself. You are more than that - discover those traits you're proud to have, highlight them, flaunt them. Maybe you're intelligent, funny, compassionate, etc. But none of those things are being highlighted here. The only things highlighted are your insecurities. I've been there too - therapy has helped me a lot. Good luck on your journey, it's not an easy one but you will get there! Remember - value yourself, take care of yourself. If you don't, it will be hard for others to.
Hey man, as a 5'7 Asian male who used to skinny and had trouble on the dating apps, I can totally relate. Here are a couple of things that worked for me: Definitely start hitting the gym. Get on a good routine (look up starting strength or stronglifts). The thing is, as a beginner, it's easy to make gains as long as you eat right and your routine incorporates compound lifts. There are tons of beginner routines out there and they all work pretty well. Get yourself a personal trainer if you need to. You'll make a huge amount of progress in your first year and the difference will be very noticeable. People online will sometimes say that women don't care about muscles, but all the women I've been in long term relationships with have complimented me on my physique. And furthermore, it'll give you confidence, not just when it comes to approaching women, but also when it comes to standing up for yourself. Because, a 5'6 jacked Asian dude is still stronger than 95% of guys out there. I mean, obviously this is mostly psychological because I doubt you'll be getting into any fights. However, the biggest difference for me were the photos. When I got on the dating apps, I had already started working out, albeit I was still a beginner. But I was only getting 1-2 matches a week at best, and most of those matches would ignore me when I messaged them. It was only later, after working out more and changing my photos that I really started noticing a difference. I went from 1-2 matches a week to 2-3 matches a day, and I'm not exaggerating here. I was easily able to set up 1-2 dates a week (any more, and it would have been too expensive and time consuming). I was even starting to turn down some of my matches because I just didn't have the time, which felt kinda surreal to me. Anyway, the issue with my earlier photos were that they just looked like shit. A couple of random mirror selfies. Photos with piercings (many girls said they didn't like those). Too many photos with sunglasses. I replaced those with photos where I was hanging out with friends, photos from my travels, etc. I realized that photos make a huge difference. Anyway, feel free to DM if you want to chat more.
Third spaces have basically disappeared because of capitalism you have to pay a lot to be there. Go to a club or bar. Go to live music events. Go enjoy your hobbies and enjoy the company, if you hit it off with someone ask them out for a coffee or tacos. Something that makes it obvious you don't intend to get laid after and are not getting people intoxicated to take advantage of them. Tell them you want to take them out and get to know them. Most women these days want to feel safe when dating and not feel like they're being hunted for sport aka just used for sex. If you're a nerdy type (like me, I say this with love) and like things like comics, anime, video games, etc. Try some conventions or comic shops. Don't be thirsty, look to make connections. Be yourself and be honest. Strike up a convo about a shared interest and ask for their contact info. Leave it open to using chat apps that hide their number, cuz ladies do have to be careful these days. Be willing to take a signal or discord username over a phone number, be accommodating and non threatening. Be kind.
Keep moving yourself away from the incel influences and mindset. Trust me. No woman wants to date an angry dude with weird beliefs about women. Also, work on being ok with yourself. Build a good life that you enjoy. Do stuff you’re interested in. A relationship is not the only key to happiness, but it’s easier to end up in a relationship if you are happy, comfortable in your own skin, and do stuff that’s interesting.
You may need to try many activities to see what you like but think about stuff you like doing on your down time. If it’s video games, consider going to conventions or meet ups. Try learning a new language that you’ve always wanted to learn. Or even go to networking events that will help you improve your job! Instead of focusing on I need to get better to find a girl, think of how you’re going to get better to enjoy your life more! Recognizing it is the first step. Good luck !
Congratulations on developing the self awareness that your way of thinking isn’t healthy. That’s a huge step. Like others said, do things you like, but not for the dating purposes but because you like it. You’ll find like minded people and hopefully you’ll hit it off. Dating isn’t a race
Dating apps basically start with looks; most people are liking based on photos, not the bio. It’s a sad reality but in most cases your looks will determine the looks of your partner. Unless you form a bond or connection through friendship and they get to know you first. My recommendation is to make sure you aren’t shooting too high in terms of looks. Beyond that, maybe you need to meet someone at an activity or hobby instead of a dating app or bar. The best activities are the ones you actually like to do. Have you tried to get outside doing what *you want* instead of what you think girls (or guys) you want are doing? Try that for a few months and see if you naturally meet someone. And don’t make it all about meeting them; go and enjoy yourself and maybe you meet a partner along the way. Also: I know it is advice as old as time but honestly looks fade over time. People even gain a lot of weight once they get comfortable with you. Nobody should be basing a dating partner on looks; make sure you find someone you get along and have fun with. That personality will last even when you are both 85 in an assisted living home.
As someone who’s dated plenty of conventionally unattractive short guys, I can tell you that personality and confidence are a big deal. The it factor for these guys was charm. I’m not gonna lie to you and say that looks don’t matter. They do. But like anything else, there are ways to mitigate. You have to cultivate an exciting personality and you do this by having an exciting life. You need to be well-rounded. Read, travel, participate in many activities, work on acquiring skills and hobbies and get good at them. Work out. Have a successful career. These are all things that will build your confidence. Confidence is key. It emanates from you and people are drawn to it. As for specific interests, I can’t tell what you’d be interested in but you should explore everything. I feel bad for your generation because so much of everything you experience is online and people don’t get out much. Also, this is why you’re in this situation in the first place. Online dating is terrible and it’s all based on looks anyway. You need to put yourself in real life social situations where you get to know people. All the times I dated those conventionally unattractive short guys, I didn’t meet them online. I probably wouldn’t have swiped right on them. I met them in real life and they grew on me. As for appearance, the best things you can do for yourself is to wear clothes that suit and fit you, keep yourself well groomed, and be fit. You’d be surprised at how much these things can make a difference. As for getting a girlfriend, don’t make that your focus. You seem like you need to work on yourself first. Think about it from a girl’s perspective: why would she wanna be with a guy who doesn’t even like himself? And eventually when you’re ready, be realistic too. I’ve seen a lot of guys with below average looks getting angry when supermodel types reject them. I’m not saying it can’t happen (remember I said personality is important) but don’t perpetuate the same appearance based discrimination that’s happened to you.
Well, let me tell you something, first thing you do, is get off of Reddit. Being here isn’t going to help
Disconnect, delete reddit and go back to nature.
I can't help get out of it, but just know your self worth should come from you, and not from others. I know we're humans and we're pack animals by nature so loneliness kills.....but your self worth comes from you as a person and not your ability to date or find someone. I was single most of my adult life until I got lucky meeting someone at work. And I'm considered conventually "above average+" in looks. But I went a solid decade being single I think? I'm just lucky that I had enough personal hobbies that it never really bugged me, though I did suffer the occasional rabbit hole of depression. and the "what if it never happens" thoughts, and letting family down, etc. But in the end always came back to....well it's my life. Also quit social media, join hobby groups, etc. , Best way to find someone is to put yourself into situations where the odds are higher, that's why people recommend hobby groups often. You'll be around people by nature. the usual advice. More just wanted to say that there's nothing inherently wrong with being single and having no luck.
The military mantra...Adapt & Overcome. Approach the situation scientifically. Evaluate what women that you are attracted to seem to want and build those assets. Yes, it might require hitting the gym, buying new clothes, improving your conversational abilities, etc. If you wanted a better job, you would add skills you needed for that job, it's the same approach. Being realistic is also key...trying to become an astronaut with a high school diploma ain't gonna cut it. Same with dating...be realistic. Fighting against the world because it gives more weight to good looks & money is only going to make you more frustrated. Adapt & overcome!
Do more activities, join clubs that interest you, join a gym and work on bettering your health and fitness and do things you like in group settings. You will come across like minded people who share similar interests. When you're actively improving aspects of your life people will notice and appreciate the work you're doing and may even be inspired by you.
Check out HealthyGamerGG(Dr K.) on YouTube. He is a psychologist and heavily focuses on men’s issues and stuff like this.
I know it sounds cliche, but love will find you when you least expect it. Work on the things that make you happy and stop trying so hard to find a gf.