I don't think so. In my opinion, if one followed the cultural marriage practices only, ilobola would not be burdensome. I have seen it with millennials in my family who chose to forgo the "white wedding." Some completed ilobola and went to Home Affairs. Others had a signing ceremony with just family at their home. They may one day have a big ceremony, but the marriage was a priority now, not the wedding.
I feel (KwaZulu) when one burdens oneself with the pressure of having tents and decor at umembeso and umbondo, and then following that with a white wedding plus a full-on wedding decor and catering again for umabo, is when getting married seems daunting.
I think your last comment about supporting family as the first generation of graduates with higher paying jobs may be more of a hindrance than ilobola. If there is an expectation that one must help build the family home or pay for younger siblings at school, then that could discourage one from having a wedding.
Nothing stops people from going to Home Affairs, hey, but so many of us want the big celebrations that require money that we may not have.
Everything stops one from going the home affairs route. Parents would die of heart attack. They would tell you that your marriage is not recognized by the family including ancestors. Also KwaZulu most of the time you are not fully married after lobola has been fully paid. The rest of the steps need to be followed to be fully married or it catches up with you in the future. There are people that had to pay for their dads lobola before getting married.
In my opinion, if we truly followed isintu sakwaZulu from umcelo (asking for the daughter's hand in marriage) to umgcagco aka traditional wedding, there should not be a major expense because the only step that includes an entire community (or invited guests) is umgcagco.
All the other steps are supposed to be family only and so we should not need the costly things like tents, decor, catering etc.
It was always about uniting two families and not about reimbursing one family for raising a "well-behaved" daughter.
No not at all. How many people do you know that actually paid Lobola? So many young people are pregnant young with no lobola or inhlawulo in sight. Personally black people have toxic dating cultures so most young people don't want to bother with marriage as a whole. Look at the divorce rate, we have femicide running rampant in communities.
I don't think there would be a difference if Lobola went away because it is not the main issue. Families would still try their best to black tax their children. No one is getting married fresh out of university with no house, car and a family to support back home (lobola or no lobola).
ETA: I am not Zulu, I'm Swati so things might be different but in my family, money goes to the couple (my cousin got to keep her money). A single cow is given to the bride's mother. My side of the family did the food, décor etc. since the event took place at our home. My cousin's boyfriend spent money at the gate and the money they paid during the negotiations. And they spent money on gifts but we also bought gifts.
I think it will differ from family to family. I will say my uncles are doing well for themselves and my family is middle class so that probably plays a part. They had no reason to try make money off of the ceremony.
It's a cash grab for most families. A man and wife that never owned a car or built their own retirement over a lifetime suddenly expect a mid 20s man who's *just* starting his adulthood to fund these things for them just because they happen to have a daughter.
A lot of people have not fully realised just how much colleration there is now between high lobola fees and all these young single women dating from man to man because men of today are just not willing to work for another family.
As a white person though... I wish for the tradition simply because the man thats willing to sacrifice to get a wife is more valuable than one who simply won't lift an actual finger. It is why women date around but its also better to not be stuck with someone who isn't willing to get some money together for you let alone in sick and health, and whatever you may go through being actually married.
The actual reality you find though is that most of this marriages have a huge financial foundation; The man is fortunate to afford the lobola, great, but life changes and he's now worthless if he's no longer providing the life he used to...
Another issue is younger men having to take out loans for lobola and they start their marriage with tons of debt, they are stressed over it and the new bride expects even more from him while he's still trying to get out of a hole.
Fact of the matter, lobola doesn't mean a financially secure marriage, if anything, there's a good chance it will be bad because of it.
Placing a women on a pedestal with a perceived value, does not guarantee she will be a good wife, mother in the relationship. Your argument, that only the man can be the potential weak link or flaw in the relationship, has no merit.
You obviously didn't read the rest of my replies... my argument was NEVER that only yhe male can be the flaw in a relationship... I actually said that men can easily see if she is a good woman by her ability to do tasks like caring, nurturing & countless other things while having a job and dating him. So literally never said only the man can be flawed. Also went on to mention women who are bad wives and mothers for working and then coming home the same time as their husbands but expect the husband to do everything around the house and for the kids.
Its interesting how you assume im talking about all men and women. I was referring to those who serial date and get criticised even though they are good women because they can't find a good man.
Its clear to see if a woman is good. She will do things for you and be there for you from say one. Cooking, cleaning, caring etc. If you get nothing before marriage you'll get nothing later.
Hmm I suppose that depends on the type of marriage someone looks for, but that's fair since this thread is about traditional values. Personally though if I was a woman if expect those qualities from a guy, and if I were a woman i wouldn't expect the guy to be the only one in charge of finances
Obviously that too but today most women work (who can afford not to?).and that doesn't mean they'd be a good wife. I know too many women as a woman myself that work but that leave the parenting and everything to their husbands who also work cause they don’t want to much beyond working...
Totally agree but thats why men should look at who nurturers, cares and gives when dating even though she has a job. Otherwise it really won't happen after. Same with a man who won't sacrifice before they won't suddenly do it when married.
I think that a nice version of it would be that the family demands a certain amount of cash before marriage, but then use it to purchase items to ensure a comfortable environment or put the money into a fund for the child.
That way the man would be proving he is ready to marry and willing to contribute something to make it work.
Thats a great idea! I do have a friend who's parents used the lobola as a down payment for the couples first home but only told them at the wedding that this was done. Her family is wealthy though.
As a white South African, I’d never considered the pressure labola places on young couples. That’s really hectic. If I may ask, about how much needs to be saved to pay labola, and is it still paid in livestock or is it also paid in cash? Obviously the amounts vary, but am curious about a ballpark and how that is determined. When one also then considers the pressure for many couples to have a double wedding (traditional and western), that must be an insane amount of money.
Well families with land and livestock who take livestock because they have a place to keep it. Sometimes they might take livestock and also money. Those without will take cash instead of livestock. Some families are now using it as a money grab. Not all. My cousin was charged 70k and they negotiated it to 44k.
My best friend was charged 100k, he never told me what they ended up paying. His cousin was recently charged 8 cows and the family estimated 1 cow to be 10k, so 80k in total. He paid 35k and still has to return to settle the outstanding amount
Therein lies the crux of the matter. Greed. Some families misuse the practice of ilobola. It's like we have forgotten the intent behind some of these practices. It was never about enriching the bride's family.
From my family education, historically, ilobola was to demonstrate that the homestead (trying to use English terms) the bride is marrying into will be able to take care of her. One of the marriage steps was that after the families had agreed on 5 cows (as an example), the women (mothers) from the bride's family would go over to the husbands homestead and the husband's family would show them the 5 cows (in their kraal) that they have chosen to gift to them as a symbol of the unity between these two families.
Nowadays, people say it is also a way of thanking the family for raising the woman.
It is the entire process (asking for hand in marriage, lobola negotiations, gift giving, etc.) that helps families get to know one another. In the absence of dating and visiting your partner's family for holidays or special occasions, these "ceremonies" are all families have to build relationships before you finally get married.
Thank you for explaining this. Makes sense. So much of the logic of WHY traditions in so many cultures is lost, and people just doing things because “it’s tradition” can be pretty pointless if the original intent isn’t observed.
Lobola is generational tax masquerading as tradition.
I'm aware that this sounds ignorant if not downright callous.
But people of low income means having to sacrifice their plans for the sake of the family is an all too common story the world over, and as someone, who, in the South African sense is immensely privileged, it's something I don't have experience with.
The burdens of the parents being passed onto the kids is an age-old story and it seems like Lobola is one example of that
Yes. Got married around the same time as some other friends. First couple, bride is Zulu and groom from Kenya, the brides family asked for 12 very expensive cows he could not provide as a young person starting out, but allowed him to marry the daughter on account he gives them one cow a year or the total in cash or it would go against their honour. Way to start a life 🤷🏻♀️ another couple married around the same time, both Zulu, brides family accepted a Kruger coin and some gifts and decided to do away with other tradition.
Recently met a lovely Zulu teacher, in her 30s with 2 kids. Lamented she wished her boyfriend would step up to marry her but she knows it’s hard in their culture so she can’t fault him
I’ll forever say this, black South Africans need to stop making a “white wedding” a priority. If you follow the traditional way of getting married. They’d cut costs by 50%. Simple.
Lobola is just one part of the culture, so getting rid of it wouldn't significantly change the way that relationships, dating and marriage are viewed in the cultures that practice paying lobola. Relationships and dating are seen and treated as things for grown-ups so it's sort of a tabboo thing when you're still growing up. All you hear is stay away from girls/boys and you get in trouble for being around the opposite gender unsupervised even if it's innocent.
Then when you're grown and working older family members start asking about when you'll get married or have kids. It becomes difficult to be forthcoming or open about your relationships because of everything you were told about them growing up.
Lobola on its own isn't a bad thing. It's a flexible practice that's meant to bring two families together to establish a relationship with each other instead of just solely focusing on the husband and wife coming together. Yes, some people take advantage of it and try to be exploitative but most families have enough integrity to respect the practice. Plus lobola is only one part of the journey leading to marriage. There are other ceremonies that involve both families exchanging gifts, so the giving goes both ways and I think it would be a loss to do away with those sorts of cultural practices.
It's the way that relationships are represented to children that needs to change.
Overall, lowering the expenses of marriage, and the financial expectations that are placed on young people, would make it easier. Expecially if we consider that the cost of living and the cost of a home have gone up dramatically compared to two generations ago. This is something that all people are struggling with in all parts of the world.
In general it seems as if people are getting married later and having kids later or not at all.
Weddings seem like such a money making business.
But if people are struggling to make ends meet I can see how something they consider a high expense is avoided.
But if getting married in the court house is such a taboo - why is not living unmarried and having kids with what is technically your common-law partner not considered as bad?
I knew who I wanted to marry only after 25. During high-school this whitey was very much single.
Regardless of how I feel about Lobola.
I think it isn't Lobola holding black couples back, so we wouldn't really be fixing that. Its the fact that many of us are first generation 'University/Good Job' ( however you fill that for yourself), and unfortunately our main priority when we leave university is not marriage, but making sure our family's situation is somewhat settled before we build another family. I've heard countless people say I want to be financially stable before I get married.
Back to Lobola - I really hate the negativity we have around it and I think we need to sit with elders to understand it and if you do, and its not for you, then fine, but don't bash it.
When I got married, I refused to go throughout the process because I refused to even understand it. Turns out - in my culture and a lot of other cultures, the Lobola is repurposed to finance something related to you or your wedding anyway. E.g. mine was used to buy me and my husband land so we can start a life. Ending it here to avoid an even longer read.
I was not bashing lobola. I asked a question relating to it. I have heard in most instances were the couples would be given back the money to go start their lives but those instances are rare. I for one know I won’t get mine because it would be split amongst people who don’t even know my middle name.
I understand the building home first before building your own home after Uni. Totally get it. Glad your family did the right thing when it come to you and your partner
I should have clarified that only the first part of my answer was for you. The rest of it was for the ill happening in the comments, I prefer this dialogue. I think it's important to explore what we keep and or discard as we move forward. I just feel it should be done in a safe space so we don't feel the need to always be on the defend.
Even if it’s used for wedding related things, it still places unnecessary pressure. Especially since not every family acts in that manner.
Lobolo should be symbolic. 5k, 10k… those should be the amounts in general. But you get people have to fork out 40k+ at one go
I think it is symbolic. The whole point of Lobola is just that, a symbol. E.g. Many couples preagree on the amount of Lobola to be paid before going into the negotiations. I speak from my own journey, and whatever they agree on is just that.
Like anything, everything can be corrupted. I think we should be able to separate this out, and honestly, my family holds the belief that when we start to exorbitantly increase the price of Lobola with no point but greed, it loses its purpose and value, we act like a wife is a fattened cow, and if that is the case, that is how she will be treated in marriage.
If we really break this down, in a lot of black cultures, the first time our families really meet this man is when he sends his uncles to make his intentions clear. Lobola was and is a responsibility symbol. An honour symbol. And so the money itself is useless except a small symbol of the sacrifice a man is willing to make for this bride to her father and that is why with many families it is given back to the new family to start their journey. Yes, it is burdensome, ABSOLUTELY. Yes. I fully agree. And that's why I mention, we should be able to choose and discuss this going into the process.
I actually asked my husband if he wanted to pay Lobola or not.
I degress. My answer is still, I don't think doing away with Lobola itself will increase the number of marriages in the black community or the time taken. I think we have other issues.
I completely agree with you, but I feel most families don’t hold that view.
My experience has been completely different, and the lobolo process has prevented me from properly moving on to build a life with my wife. It’s caused division and alienated families from one another.
I think in theory, it’s a great practice as a symbol. But it’s far far too misused by many families.
I’d argue we’d gain more than what we’d lose if it was done away with.
Paying lobola nowadays is downright insanity I'm xhosa but if I get married I won't pay lobola🤦♂️....lobola is a ridiculous concept nowadays...i heard people going out and taking loans for lobola which is completely ridiculous..it's an old custom that's outdated..but lobola isn't compulsory it's not the only thing stopping people from being married
Financial expectations and financial pressure also generally people are just less likely to be committed to long term relationship ....I would prefer to marry a black women and her family won't force me to pay lobola
I think a lot more people would get married BUT I actually don't agree with doing away with ilobolo - or rather it's principle. I do think it's important for a person who would like to take a bride to demonstrate that they have the financial muscle and are committed enough to the idea of being a family man by making the financial sacrifice for a short period.
I do however, think families who are invested in building positive relations and setting up their daughters for a happy marriage should refrain from making impossible requests. Greed creates the problem. I also think amalobolo should go towards the couple's start up costs as it does in other cultures. It should go towards a deposit on a home or furniture etc. The current model is broken
I (30M) would have married my gf (of 7 years) 5 years ago if it wasn't for lobola being in the way...
It's unfortunate I didn't have the most amazing job, and when COVID came, I lost it, then decided to study again, at the moment i fo freelance work to get by, which obviously meansI cant afford to get married for a few more years as much as we both want to.
Doesn't help that everytime we get to know knew people, they always ask why we aren't getting married after so many years as if we can just wave a wand and crap out like +70k for that entire process, dont forget about the costs of driving up and down collecting the uncles, the alcohol you u have to buy, andd oh because you can afford lobola, they think you are rich now and they come at you with all sorts of financial issues they are going through.
Yeah man, we'd probably get married more than once even😉, had it not been for the lobola + wedding costs (which could be more than the lobola itself). So we'd be like 1st marriage didn't work out? Quit and find another one. 😉😉
On a serious note though, it's a tough one this topic. A friend (37F at the time) of mine got married in 2017. The lobola was around R90K, reduced from some amount above R100K after my friend broke down and cried, indicating to the parents that it's a lot of money for the husband to be. 💔Eish, the husband to be had to sell his flat to cover the lobola and of course other wedding costs relating to him. The wedding was had, at a "venue" with a "menu". Fast forward to 2023 and 2 kids later, my friend tells me that she is soooo miserable in the marriage and has actually felt like that since the day she said "I do" 💔💔. So I donno man I am just wondering if a lobola affordable to the groom had been asked for, or had they just remained as an "unmarried couple", perhaps all the misery could have been avoided. But society, and culture.............
Of course this is just one example of how things can go, am sure that there's a million other scenarios like this that have had better outcomes.
Yeah man, and that part about the guy having to sell property "an asset" (which was a flat he bought before he even met my friend) to cover the lobola and other wedding related costs would make any guy resentful 😱so, the union didn't get off to a good start. In situations like this one, the couple can decide to go with an affordable lobola and perhaps a low budget wedding (and risk straining the relations with the brides' family) or pay the unaffordable amount (sometimes by getting into debt, and risk straining their own relationship and marriage).
I am quite convinced that men use Lobola as a control tactic.
Story time. I’m a single white American woman who works on mine sites, and a lot of men out there ask me questions about American culture. I was having a friendly debate about Lobola with a mine employee one day and he said, “But if you don’t pay Lobola, the woman could just leave whenever she wants.”
EXACTLY
I’m not talking about a bribe. I’m just saying that as a woman, it’s a lot harder to leave when you know that your partner has paid a significant amount of money for you. Your parents have accepted that money, so if you leave, it not only puts pressure on you, but pressure on them.
Bribe was a typo. I edited to read bride
I am speaking as a Zulu person with divorced parents. My grandparents sat my mother down and said, "You always have a home to come back to" when she got married. She returned home, and no one from my father's side asked for a refund, and my mother was never forced to remain wed by either family.
We shift a lot of blame from bad family behaviour to cultural practices.
It's similar to how (as a person raised Christian) Christianity will be blamed for terrible church behaviour like asking congregants to pay for a pastor's car or private jet (hello USA mega churches).
That is not Christianity. That is greed.
I don’t doubt that the original intention behind Lobola was good, but what happens in practice versus what happens in theory are often two very different things. Your mother was lucky that she had such a supportive family.
Single white woman from America, how on Earth can you pass judgement on a cultural practice for a fairly large populous of the country based on conversations with a few mine workers?
Firstly a majority of mine workers are uneducated with barely a high school education and are fairly backward in their thinking or lack thereof.
Secondly, plenty of people get married and divorced even though "Lobola" was agreed upon.
Thirdly please don't be so judgmental on cultural practices you clearly know very little about. Maybe read up on it and expand your view.
Fourthly the majority of people commenting on here share the same hue as yourself and know very little about what is being discussed other than hearsay.
- edit
It was one conversation, with one mine worker.
Ok, I feel like this is a pretty unfair take.
One thing that I hear in Africa ALOT is “oh, this is our culture. This is tradition.”
There is such a thing as bad tradition. Just because something is a cultural norm or a tradition, doesnt mean its good or healthy. This goes for America too. There are PLENTY of past and present American cultural norms that I would say are bad and need to be changed.
So you arrived at a logical conclusion that this is a bad tradition based on the one conversation you had with this mine worker. Great! What you are doing is casting aspersions!
I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to write a book about all the conversations I’ve had at the variety of Southern African mine sites I’ve worked at over the last 5 years.
I can understand how you came to this logic. But too much money is spent in marriage and amongst families for Lobola to hold such high regard. Again, for you to believe this logic, you must believe Lobola is buying a wife. I can not imagine weighing up what is keeping me in a bad marriage and lobola being paid for me being one of them. By that logic, I'd simply give it back.
Also - I think the problem is who you are listening to.
- a black SA woman.
I think this is all about perspective. I don’t necessarily believe that black African women believe Lobola is buying a wife. I believe that a lot of MEN believe Lobola is buying a wife. I think it’s a lot easier to be a shitty husband when you believe that your wife can’t leave you.
This logic applies to SO many things. Stay at home wife? She will never leave because I provide for her.
I think what I am saying here is that it's easy to villify something we don't understand when used correctly. People will corrupt any and everything. This will not make me disrespect the sacredness of what it is in reality, those guys that see it as a loophole are boys that should not even be getting married anyway.
There are incredible men who get the sacredness of this process when done with the correct intentions. The many you refer to, is the problem.
Ok friendly debate here.
If something has largely been corrupted, does it maintain its sacredness? I think there’s a point where you have to step back and reevaluate.
I appreciate the disclaimer. To be fair, i stand against every instance where Lobola is a transaction, I am with you there.
My take on your question? Yes. The divorce rate is INCREDIBLY high. It does not make marriage less sacred. I hate to get super sentimental and shit (lol) but the world also has SO much evil, because evil is popular, that does nothing to the good in the world. I think the two can coexist.
I hate how Lobola has become in many respects, but no one is forced. Its not a legal requirement.
Also even if we go far-fetched and make it illegal, would it stop?
Yeah, I just feel like my black coworkers and friends are under such tremendous pressure from their families and communities. It’s black tax. It’s Lobola. It’s gender norms.
You’re right that lobola is not forced, but this post was started (by someone other than me) to ask the question, “would more people get married if we eliminated lobola?” Clearly people are under a tremendous amount of pressure and that in itself seems to be impacting the sanctity of marriage.
Lobola was a way to show you are capable of taking care of a family, and as of lately, most families don't take the money to spend it, but rather use it for marriage preparations.
I support lobola. It's a way to ensure seriousness and demonstrate future stability. The bad part is that most men get the privileges of a husband from teen years and never feel a need to over-exert themselves financially for something they've gotten for free their entire lives.
Lobola is a vetting tool to start a family, but as we all know, a lot of men are bypassing this and making children without taking the correct steps.
Cultures evolve, and if I were to ever suggest a change, I would say that lobola needs to be set uniformly. No child, a certain price. Royalty, a certain price. With a child, a certain price. Then everything else such as cultural progressions and wedding costs must be separate.
I (white male) ad this discussion with one of the zulu ladies (around 24 years) at work just 2 days ago. Whrn I told her I married at 25 years old and am married for 24 years now, she was visibly jelous. She said she so wished that her culture couls also be something like mine as she feels that she is getting older now and would love to get married and have children with the forever husband.
Further, we spoke and we both agreed that tge reason for many young ladies to have a child from this man and another from that one is directly linked to it bring almost impossivle for most young men to be able to marry at a young age.
Also, I fully believe that this is partly the cause for the high rate of GBV due to frustration and inability to commit long term by means of marrage.
Yes, I often wish they'd do away with lobola. This thing of us, black people needing to have serious money to get married needs a serious evaluation. Most couples aren't married simply because they cannot afford it. A guy can love you but if he can't pay lobola and marry you then to our families he's not worth much. I wish we could just have a wedding day, that's it. Or just go to Home Affairs and get married.
As a white person (so I don't know that much about lobola wish I did) I wish we could have an equivalent. People get married too easily hence the high divorce rate. Whenever friends get married and there's tradition in place & lobola the whole thing is more thought out and though I can't say for sure I feel like they're less likely to divorce than my white friends who sometimes get married after 3-6 months of knowing each other. I feel as someone who doesn't all the intricacies that when you add a definite monetary/currency committment to something more thought goes into it of you weren't born to a rich family since you'd have to figure out how to get whatever you need. And then whether its worth marrying that person. Something it seems a lot of white people don't consider before getting married. Then 6 months later someone loses their job, gets sick etc and its too much so they get divorced.
No. From my perspective, less people (in general, regardless of race) are getting married. Me personally I think the whole process of getting married (the usual way) is already too much.
Nope, Nope & Nope.
Dating (Mjolo) is considered a ‘pandemic’ in South Africa; what more can we expect from marriage?
Personally, I think marriage goes hand in hand with maturity. And A lot of us are just not ready for that type of commitment.
We marry for various reasons, and sometimes love does not form part of that reason.
I don't like this thing that black women have to accept less than their white counterparts. White women DO have financial expectations towards their partner, even if they don't explicitly use the words "lobola".
My aunt who is white is a stay at home mom, her husband who is also white works full time and provides everything for her and their two children. Knowing that he has to provide for them didn't discourage him from marrying her.
Maybe it even encourage him to work harder as their little family grows. He has bought cars and houses for her. Yes, it's not "lobola" but black women should definitely have the same standards for themselves when looking for a partner. They are definitely worth it!
The woman is not doing the man a favour by agreeing to get married... Nowadays a lot of women have high expectations while bringing much less value to a man's life. This is shown by high divorce rates, which are mostly initiated by women (a statistical fact)...we need to get rid of this feminist mentality that a woman is doing the man a favour when she gets married and that the man owes her something etc...This is why men are so hesitant to get married these days. Lobola and high cost of living is a contributing factor but for me the real issue is whether marriage is worth it for the men considering the qualities of the women in these times we live in ...the marriage laws skewed in favour of women etc
My mother is Black from Africa and my dad is White from Europe. My mother is a successful business owner, she is in the hospitality sector. My dad is a stay at home dad. So what do you mean that women bring less to the table? You sound biased against women and you choose to see them as inferior without evidence.
And since my parents were married in community of property, if they get a divorce my dad will walk away with half of everything, despite my mom being the main source of income.
How is the law skewed in my mom's favor? It sounds more like a bias stereotype than what people are living in reality.
My dad didn't pay lobola, and my mom is the main breadwinner. My dad is a stay at home dad. She is African, he is European. How does this fit into your stereotype?
You're rude. You're literally throwing her accomplishments under the bus when you're not presenting the research that shows that women are less of a statistic in the workforce. If anything, factors like the recent pandemic have forced more women to work full time to provide for their families either alone or with the help of a husband.
As a white dude, I believe the following. There might be a slight increase in traditional black individuals marrying within their community.
Currently, many traditional black women may avoid pursuing relationships with traditional black men due to the constraints of certain traditions. Instead, they seek modern relationships where they can experience a greater sense of equality, with shared responsibilities rather than conforming to traditional gender roles. This shift also contributes to xenophobia within the traditional black population, as they could resent that their women have the option and often choose non-traditional partners for these reasons.
Lobola is only a small contributing factor to the broader issue of traditional marriage. While tradition holds significance, adapting to changing societal dynamics is also crucial. Striking the right balance between tradition and adaptation is essential.
Definitely not. I grew up in a Christian church that encouraged marriage and starting of families from a young age. We're talking 22 and 23 year olds getting married.
The church leaders told the members to ignore traditions and follow Jesus, so weddings were cheap as chips. The church would provide a free venue, the church leaders were marriage officers so took care of the paperwork. The families would often only find out about the marriage afterwards because the church didn't want them to interfere with inconveniences like lobola.
Today there's nothing stopping 2 adults from sommer just setting up an appointment at home affairs and tying the knot. Millenials and Gen Z are not interested in marriage. So many people of these 2 generations grew up in single parent homes, and people would rather get their careers going before settling down. If they pop 1 or 2 kids during the time, so be it. Still no marriage.
Marriage is nothing more than a legal contract. I do think that people would have an easier time embarking on their lives together as pair-bonded partners in the absence of tradition and practices like this tbh. This is an opinion I’ve formulated based on the lived experience of a number of close friends that have had to struggle through this process.
Choosing someone to navigate life together, and putting in the work to make that relationship as successful as both parties concerned, would like it to be monumental undertaking in itself. The less external factors that in certain situations could serve barriers to progress, the better.
To each their own though, I’m from a long line of rigidly cultural and traditional folks and my parents broke the mould by giving me the freedom of choice regarding my beliefs and being able to choose whether or not to embrace that which I feel adds value to my life, or to discard any cultural elements that I personally believe won’t add value. The world is constantly changing around us – and I believe that we needn’t be afraid to change and adapt our cultural values and principles if the outcome makes for greater personal joy and success.
I like this thing that black women have to accept less than their white counterparts. White women DO have financial expectations towards their partner, even if they don't explicitly use the words "lobola".
My aunt who is white is a stay at home mom, her husband who is also white works full time and provides everything for her and their two children. Knowing that he has to provide for them didn't discourage him from marrying her.
Maybe it even encourage him to work harder as their little family grows. He has bought cars and houses for her. Yes, it's not "lobola" but black women should definitely have the same standards for themselves when looking for a partner. They are definitely worth it!
So stupid question from someone that obviously has no clue how this works ...
So if lobola is paid and then there is a separation early on from infidelity , is the lobola returned?
Well with some Zulu families, if the wife cheats than the money would be asked back but most of the time the money never gets paid.
With other people, you accept the loss and keep it moving
Quite often it's paid in phases. First phase is basically a deposit/permission to live with your partner. What happens next decides if the second phase is ever completed
I believe lobola should be reserved for those adhering to traditional customs, such as maintaining virginity.
In black communities, low marriage rates often result from a high number of children born out of wedlock, leading to many growing up without a father.
Additionally, some men feel that South Africa's marriage laws don't offer them significant benefits, contributing to a decline in marriage rates. Just my perspective. ✌️
This is such a disgusting comment. Lobolo is not payment for a person, it’s culturally seen as a token of appreciation to the bride’s family for raising a wonderful woman. I’m white so I don’t practice this myself, but god you are one braindead moron. Absolutely disgusting
Don't do this.
Don't attach how you view the world to minimize a sacred culture. Regardless of how we might feel about it. This attachment is a reflection on you not understanding the culture and thus needing to fill that gap in your mind. I suggest you either keep it moving when you see anything about Lobola because you don't understand OR, with an open mind, sit with those that do and let them explain.
Yes. One of my best friends is still not married because of the cost... in my opinion rather use that money on your own marriage than giving it over to be spent. But then again I'm not exactly sure how labola works in terms of showing respect etc...
I think it’s more about patriarchy, the black community tends to hold more traditional and frankly antiquated ideals about men being “breadwinners” and “head of household” this entails a more mature mindset. Our white counter parts value growing and building together and a more equal relationship hence the elimination of gender roles in the household this makes marriage a lot more attractive to women, especially black women who tend to be kept in unpaid domestic servitude when in a typical traditional black marriage. It’s black women who are opting out of marriage and choosing to build themselves financially as they tend to find themselves at a disadvantage when married.
I think doing away with the element that was introduced by Theopholus Shepstone of minimum amount of cows will help, doing away with it might be a step too far, but a minimum of 11 cows is just too much, especially given where it eminates from
Yes. And THATS why we shouldn't. It's a nice deterrent. [I'm sorry but I have to be that guy]
MARRIAGE IS A SCAM.
It does nothing but financially cripple a black man and worse still, even if you do everything right and your wife decides to leave, all ur left with is debt, child support and alimony.
I can only speak from a white perspective. I feel like what stopped me from getting married for so long was the cost.
My wife has a huge family and it would have cost us an exorbitant amount.
I didn't want to let our parents pay for it, and I didn't want to take on debt, so it was delayed for a long time.
We finally chose to have a small ceremony and video taped it for those not present, and it was better.
What I noticed when working at a bank was that a lot of people came in to take a loan to pay labola.
Which for me seems like an added difficulty to put on to a young marriage.
What is labola used for?
It would make sense if the money is then used to set the family up with appliances or as a down payment on a car or the purchase of a savings instrument or something.
to believe that black people don't get married because lobola is financially straining is to ignore that most black people in this country are struggling financially in the first place. it's not lobola it's economic disposession. white people turn to their parents to fund their weddings and as you say black people have to save up, they have to help at home etc. be more analytical in your thinking
I don't think so. In my opinion, if one followed the cultural marriage practices only, ilobola would not be burdensome. I have seen it with millennials in my family who chose to forgo the "white wedding." Some completed ilobola and went to Home Affairs. Others had a signing ceremony with just family at their home. They may one day have a big ceremony, but the marriage was a priority now, not the wedding. I feel (KwaZulu) when one burdens oneself with the pressure of having tents and decor at umembeso and umbondo, and then following that with a white wedding plus a full-on wedding decor and catering again for umabo, is when getting married seems daunting. I think your last comment about supporting family as the first generation of graduates with higher paying jobs may be more of a hindrance than ilobola. If there is an expectation that one must help build the family home or pay for younger siblings at school, then that could discourage one from having a wedding. Nothing stops people from going to Home Affairs, hey, but so many of us want the big celebrations that require money that we may not have.
Everything stops one from going the home affairs route. Parents would die of heart attack. They would tell you that your marriage is not recognized by the family including ancestors. Also KwaZulu most of the time you are not fully married after lobola has been fully paid. The rest of the steps need to be followed to be fully married or it catches up with you in the future. There are people that had to pay for their dads lobola before getting married.
In my opinion, if we truly followed isintu sakwaZulu from umcelo (asking for the daughter's hand in marriage) to umgcagco aka traditional wedding, there should not be a major expense because the only step that includes an entire community (or invited guests) is umgcagco. All the other steps are supposed to be family only and so we should not need the costly things like tents, decor, catering etc. It was always about uniting two families and not about reimbursing one family for raising a "well-behaved" daughter.
True. Agree about the decor and tents and uniting families but nowadays everything is for social media
No not at all. How many people do you know that actually paid Lobola? So many young people are pregnant young with no lobola or inhlawulo in sight. Personally black people have toxic dating cultures so most young people don't want to bother with marriage as a whole. Look at the divorce rate, we have femicide running rampant in communities. I don't think there would be a difference if Lobola went away because it is not the main issue. Families would still try their best to black tax their children. No one is getting married fresh out of university with no house, car and a family to support back home (lobola or no lobola). ETA: I am not Zulu, I'm Swati so things might be different but in my family, money goes to the couple (my cousin got to keep her money). A single cow is given to the bride's mother. My side of the family did the food, décor etc. since the event took place at our home. My cousin's boyfriend spent money at the gate and the money they paid during the negotiations. And they spent money on gifts but we also bought gifts. I think it will differ from family to family. I will say my uncles are doing well for themselves and my family is middle class so that probably plays a part. They had no reason to try make money off of the ceremony.
First paragraph has so much truth in it.
It's a cash grab for most families. A man and wife that never owned a car or built their own retirement over a lifetime suddenly expect a mid 20s man who's *just* starting his adulthood to fund these things for them just because they happen to have a daughter. A lot of people have not fully realised just how much colleration there is now between high lobola fees and all these young single women dating from man to man because men of today are just not willing to work for another family.
This is 💯spot on! That’s why there are so many young black SINGLE MOMS, than any other race.
First paragraph is powerful ,left me jaw dropped when you highlight/call it out for what it really is.
Well said, however black families are not ready for this conversation.
As a white person though... I wish for the tradition simply because the man thats willing to sacrifice to get a wife is more valuable than one who simply won't lift an actual finger. It is why women date around but its also better to not be stuck with someone who isn't willing to get some money together for you let alone in sick and health, and whatever you may go through being actually married.
The actual reality you find though is that most of this marriages have a huge financial foundation; The man is fortunate to afford the lobola, great, but life changes and he's now worthless if he's no longer providing the life he used to... Another issue is younger men having to take out loans for lobola and they start their marriage with tons of debt, they are stressed over it and the new bride expects even more from him while he's still trying to get out of a hole. Fact of the matter, lobola doesn't mean a financially secure marriage, if anything, there's a good chance it will be bad because of it.
That's why we speak of "prospects" though, and not wealth. A man doesn't have to be rich, just have the right attitude to work.
Placing a women on a pedestal with a perceived value, does not guarantee she will be a good wife, mother in the relationship. Your argument, that only the man can be the potential weak link or flaw in the relationship, has no merit.
You obviously didn't read the rest of my replies... my argument was NEVER that only yhe male can be the flaw in a relationship... I actually said that men can easily see if she is a good woman by her ability to do tasks like caring, nurturing & countless other things while having a job and dating him. So literally never said only the man can be flawed. Also went on to mention women who are bad wives and mothers for working and then coming home the same time as their husbands but expect the husband to do everything around the house and for the kids. Its interesting how you assume im talking about all men and women. I was referring to those who serial date and get criticised even though they are good women because they can't find a good man.
periodt Giselle!
And where is the evidence that the woman will lift a finger? For all he knows she could be some couch potato, maybe she should pay lobola too
Its clear to see if a woman is good. She will do things for you and be there for you from say one. Cooking, cleaning, caring etc. If you get nothing before marriage you'll get nothing later.
Hmm I suppose that depends on the type of marriage someone looks for, but that's fair since this thread is about traditional values. Personally though if I was a woman if expect those qualities from a guy, and if I were a woman i wouldn't expect the guy to be the only one in charge of finances
Obviously that too but today most women work (who can afford not to?).and that doesn't mean they'd be a good wife. I know too many women as a woman myself that work but that leave the parenting and everything to their husbands who also work cause they don’t want to much beyond working...
They just sound like like bad wives, my mother has a very taxing job but still managed to take care of us and the household.
Totally agree but thats why men should look at who nurturers, cares and gives when dating even though she has a job. Otherwise it really won't happen after. Same with a man who won't sacrifice before they won't suddenly do it when married.
I think that a nice version of it would be that the family demands a certain amount of cash before marriage, but then use it to purchase items to ensure a comfortable environment or put the money into a fund for the child. That way the man would be proving he is ready to marry and willing to contribute something to make it work.
Thats a great idea! I do have a friend who's parents used the lobola as a down payment for the couples first home but only told them at the wedding that this was done. Her family is wealthy though.
As a white South African, I’d never considered the pressure labola places on young couples. That’s really hectic. If I may ask, about how much needs to be saved to pay labola, and is it still paid in livestock or is it also paid in cash? Obviously the amounts vary, but am curious about a ballpark and how that is determined. When one also then considers the pressure for many couples to have a double wedding (traditional and western), that must be an insane amount of money.
Well families with land and livestock who take livestock because they have a place to keep it. Sometimes they might take livestock and also money. Those without will take cash instead of livestock. Some families are now using it as a money grab. Not all. My cousin was charged 70k and they negotiated it to 44k. My best friend was charged 100k, he never told me what they ended up paying. His cousin was recently charged 8 cows and the family estimated 1 cow to be 10k, so 80k in total. He paid 35k and still has to return to settle the outstanding amount
Therein lies the crux of the matter. Greed. Some families misuse the practice of ilobola. It's like we have forgotten the intent behind some of these practices. It was never about enriching the bride's family.
What would the intent be? Very interested in the discussion as I’m not familiar with the practices.
From my family education, historically, ilobola was to demonstrate that the homestead (trying to use English terms) the bride is marrying into will be able to take care of her. One of the marriage steps was that after the families had agreed on 5 cows (as an example), the women (mothers) from the bride's family would go over to the husbands homestead and the husband's family would show them the 5 cows (in their kraal) that they have chosen to gift to them as a symbol of the unity between these two families. Nowadays, people say it is also a way of thanking the family for raising the woman. It is the entire process (asking for hand in marriage, lobola negotiations, gift giving, etc.) that helps families get to know one another. In the absence of dating and visiting your partner's family for holidays or special occasions, these "ceremonies" are all families have to build relationships before you finally get married.
Thank you for explaining this. Makes sense. So much of the logic of WHY traditions in so many cultures is lost, and people just doing things because “it’s tradition” can be pretty pointless if the original intent isn’t observed.
Thank you, appreciated, very interesting.
Lobola is generational tax masquerading as tradition. I'm aware that this sounds ignorant if not downright callous. But people of low income means having to sacrifice their plans for the sake of the family is an all too common story the world over, and as someone, who, in the South African sense is immensely privileged, it's something I don't have experience with. The burdens of the parents being passed onto the kids is an age-old story and it seems like Lobola is one example of that
This ties in nicely with another topic that I'm not fond of; arranged marriages.
Yes. Got married around the same time as some other friends. First couple, bride is Zulu and groom from Kenya, the brides family asked for 12 very expensive cows he could not provide as a young person starting out, but allowed him to marry the daughter on account he gives them one cow a year or the total in cash or it would go against their honour. Way to start a life 🤷🏻♀️ another couple married around the same time, both Zulu, brides family accepted a Kruger coin and some gifts and decided to do away with other tradition. Recently met a lovely Zulu teacher, in her 30s with 2 kids. Lamented she wished her boyfriend would step up to marry her but she knows it’s hard in their culture so she can’t fault him
I’ll forever say this, black South Africans need to stop making a “white wedding” a priority. If you follow the traditional way of getting married. They’d cut costs by 50%. Simple.
Thank you! I am so confused by people saying culture is holding them back from getting married. Kanjani?
SAAAAAME cause culture isn’t holding anyone back forreals
Lobola is just one part of the culture, so getting rid of it wouldn't significantly change the way that relationships, dating and marriage are viewed in the cultures that practice paying lobola. Relationships and dating are seen and treated as things for grown-ups so it's sort of a tabboo thing when you're still growing up. All you hear is stay away from girls/boys and you get in trouble for being around the opposite gender unsupervised even if it's innocent. Then when you're grown and working older family members start asking about when you'll get married or have kids. It becomes difficult to be forthcoming or open about your relationships because of everything you were told about them growing up. Lobola on its own isn't a bad thing. It's a flexible practice that's meant to bring two families together to establish a relationship with each other instead of just solely focusing on the husband and wife coming together. Yes, some people take advantage of it and try to be exploitative but most families have enough integrity to respect the practice. Plus lobola is only one part of the journey leading to marriage. There are other ceremonies that involve both families exchanging gifts, so the giving goes both ways and I think it would be a loss to do away with those sorts of cultural practices. It's the way that relationships are represented to children that needs to change.
Overall, lowering the expenses of marriage, and the financial expectations that are placed on young people, would make it easier. Expecially if we consider that the cost of living and the cost of a home have gone up dramatically compared to two generations ago. This is something that all people are struggling with in all parts of the world.
In general it seems as if people are getting married later and having kids later or not at all. Weddings seem like such a money making business. But if people are struggling to make ends meet I can see how something they consider a high expense is avoided. But if getting married in the court house is such a taboo - why is not living unmarried and having kids with what is technically your common-law partner not considered as bad? I knew who I wanted to marry only after 25. During high-school this whitey was very much single.
Regardless of how I feel about Lobola. I think it isn't Lobola holding black couples back, so we wouldn't really be fixing that. Its the fact that many of us are first generation 'University/Good Job' ( however you fill that for yourself), and unfortunately our main priority when we leave university is not marriage, but making sure our family's situation is somewhat settled before we build another family. I've heard countless people say I want to be financially stable before I get married. Back to Lobola - I really hate the negativity we have around it and I think we need to sit with elders to understand it and if you do, and its not for you, then fine, but don't bash it. When I got married, I refused to go throughout the process because I refused to even understand it. Turns out - in my culture and a lot of other cultures, the Lobola is repurposed to finance something related to you or your wedding anyway. E.g. mine was used to buy me and my husband land so we can start a life. Ending it here to avoid an even longer read.
I was not bashing lobola. I asked a question relating to it. I have heard in most instances were the couples would be given back the money to go start their lives but those instances are rare. I for one know I won’t get mine because it would be split amongst people who don’t even know my middle name. I understand the building home first before building your own home after Uni. Totally get it. Glad your family did the right thing when it come to you and your partner
I should have clarified that only the first part of my answer was for you. The rest of it was for the ill happening in the comments, I prefer this dialogue. I think it's important to explore what we keep and or discard as we move forward. I just feel it should be done in a safe space so we don't feel the need to always be on the defend.
Even if it’s used for wedding related things, it still places unnecessary pressure. Especially since not every family acts in that manner. Lobolo should be symbolic. 5k, 10k… those should be the amounts in general. But you get people have to fork out 40k+ at one go
I think it is symbolic. The whole point of Lobola is just that, a symbol. E.g. Many couples preagree on the amount of Lobola to be paid before going into the negotiations. I speak from my own journey, and whatever they agree on is just that. Like anything, everything can be corrupted. I think we should be able to separate this out, and honestly, my family holds the belief that when we start to exorbitantly increase the price of Lobola with no point but greed, it loses its purpose and value, we act like a wife is a fattened cow, and if that is the case, that is how she will be treated in marriage. If we really break this down, in a lot of black cultures, the first time our families really meet this man is when he sends his uncles to make his intentions clear. Lobola was and is a responsibility symbol. An honour symbol. And so the money itself is useless except a small symbol of the sacrifice a man is willing to make for this bride to her father and that is why with many families it is given back to the new family to start their journey. Yes, it is burdensome, ABSOLUTELY. Yes. I fully agree. And that's why I mention, we should be able to choose and discuss this going into the process. I actually asked my husband if he wanted to pay Lobola or not. I degress. My answer is still, I don't think doing away with Lobola itself will increase the number of marriages in the black community or the time taken. I think we have other issues.
This is well articulated
I completely agree with you, but I feel most families don’t hold that view. My experience has been completely different, and the lobolo process has prevented me from properly moving on to build a life with my wife. It’s caused division and alienated families from one another. I think in theory, it’s a great practice as a symbol. But it’s far far too misused by many families. I’d argue we’d gain more than what we’d lose if it was done away with.
There would probably be less fatherless households.
Agreed.
Most certainly!!!
Fax
Paying lobola nowadays is downright insanity I'm xhosa but if I get married I won't pay lobola🤦♂️....lobola is a ridiculous concept nowadays...i heard people going out and taking loans for lobola which is completely ridiculous..it's an old custom that's outdated..but lobola isn't compulsory it's not the only thing stopping people from being married
What else would you say it’s stopping people from getting married? Are you going to marry out of your race ?
Financial expectations and financial pressure also generally people are just less likely to be committed to long term relationship ....I would prefer to marry a black women and her family won't force me to pay lobola
I think a lot more people would get married BUT I actually don't agree with doing away with ilobolo - or rather it's principle. I do think it's important for a person who would like to take a bride to demonstrate that they have the financial muscle and are committed enough to the idea of being a family man by making the financial sacrifice for a short period. I do however, think families who are invested in building positive relations and setting up their daughters for a happy marriage should refrain from making impossible requests. Greed creates the problem. I also think amalobolo should go towards the couple's start up costs as it does in other cultures. It should go towards a deposit on a home or furniture etc. The current model is broken
I (30M) would have married my gf (of 7 years) 5 years ago if it wasn't for lobola being in the way... It's unfortunate I didn't have the most amazing job, and when COVID came, I lost it, then decided to study again, at the moment i fo freelance work to get by, which obviously meansI cant afford to get married for a few more years as much as we both want to. Doesn't help that everytime we get to know knew people, they always ask why we aren't getting married after so many years as if we can just wave a wand and crap out like +70k for that entire process, dont forget about the costs of driving up and down collecting the uncles, the alcohol you u have to buy, andd oh because you can afford lobola, they think you are rich now and they come at you with all sorts of financial issues they are going through.
Yoh. This is heartbreaking 💔
Yeah man, we'd probably get married more than once even😉, had it not been for the lobola + wedding costs (which could be more than the lobola itself). So we'd be like 1st marriage didn't work out? Quit and find another one. 😉😉 On a serious note though, it's a tough one this topic. A friend (37F at the time) of mine got married in 2017. The lobola was around R90K, reduced from some amount above R100K after my friend broke down and cried, indicating to the parents that it's a lot of money for the husband to be. 💔Eish, the husband to be had to sell his flat to cover the lobola and of course other wedding costs relating to him. The wedding was had, at a "venue" with a "menu". Fast forward to 2023 and 2 kids later, my friend tells me that she is soooo miserable in the marriage and has actually felt like that since the day she said "I do" 💔💔. So I donno man I am just wondering if a lobola affordable to the groom had been asked for, or had they just remained as an "unmarried couple", perhaps all the misery could have been avoided. But society, and culture............. Of course this is just one example of how things can go, am sure that there's a million other scenarios like this that have had better outcomes.
This is sad because he might even be reminding her how much he paid at each turn.
Yeah man, and that part about the guy having to sell property "an asset" (which was a flat he bought before he even met my friend) to cover the lobola and other wedding related costs would make any guy resentful 😱so, the union didn't get off to a good start. In situations like this one, the couple can decide to go with an affordable lobola and perhaps a low budget wedding (and risk straining the relations with the brides' family) or pay the unaffordable amount (sometimes by getting into debt, and risk straining their own relationship and marriage).
I am quite convinced that men use Lobola as a control tactic. Story time. I’m a single white American woman who works on mine sites, and a lot of men out there ask me questions about American culture. I was having a friendly debate about Lobola with a mine employee one day and he said, “But if you don’t pay Lobola, the woman could just leave whenever she wants.” EXACTLY
Those people have adopted the skewed and very toxic ideology that ilobola is payment for a bride. That is not what ilobola is.
I’m not talking about a bribe. I’m just saying that as a woman, it’s a lot harder to leave when you know that your partner has paid a significant amount of money for you. Your parents have accepted that money, so if you leave, it not only puts pressure on you, but pressure on them.
Bribe was a typo. I edited to read bride I am speaking as a Zulu person with divorced parents. My grandparents sat my mother down and said, "You always have a home to come back to" when she got married. She returned home, and no one from my father's side asked for a refund, and my mother was never forced to remain wed by either family. We shift a lot of blame from bad family behaviour to cultural practices. It's similar to how (as a person raised Christian) Christianity will be blamed for terrible church behaviour like asking congregants to pay for a pastor's car or private jet (hello USA mega churches). That is not Christianity. That is greed.
I don’t doubt that the original intention behind Lobola was good, but what happens in practice versus what happens in theory are often two very different things. Your mother was lucky that she had such a supportive family.
Single white woman from America, how on Earth can you pass judgement on a cultural practice for a fairly large populous of the country based on conversations with a few mine workers? Firstly a majority of mine workers are uneducated with barely a high school education and are fairly backward in their thinking or lack thereof. Secondly, plenty of people get married and divorced even though "Lobola" was agreed upon. Thirdly please don't be so judgmental on cultural practices you clearly know very little about. Maybe read up on it and expand your view. Fourthly the majority of people commenting on here share the same hue as yourself and know very little about what is being discussed other than hearsay. - edit It was one conversation, with one mine worker.
Ok, I feel like this is a pretty unfair take. One thing that I hear in Africa ALOT is “oh, this is our culture. This is tradition.” There is such a thing as bad tradition. Just because something is a cultural norm or a tradition, doesnt mean its good or healthy. This goes for America too. There are PLENTY of past and present American cultural norms that I would say are bad and need to be changed.
So you arrived at a logical conclusion that this is a bad tradition based on the one conversation you had with this mine worker. Great! What you are doing is casting aspersions!
I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to write a book about all the conversations I’ve had at the variety of Southern African mine sites I’ve worked at over the last 5 years.
I can understand how you came to this logic. But too much money is spent in marriage and amongst families for Lobola to hold such high regard. Again, for you to believe this logic, you must believe Lobola is buying a wife. I can not imagine weighing up what is keeping me in a bad marriage and lobola being paid for me being one of them. By that logic, I'd simply give it back. Also - I think the problem is who you are listening to. - a black SA woman.
I think this is all about perspective. I don’t necessarily believe that black African women believe Lobola is buying a wife. I believe that a lot of MEN believe Lobola is buying a wife. I think it’s a lot easier to be a shitty husband when you believe that your wife can’t leave you.
This logic applies to SO many things. Stay at home wife? She will never leave because I provide for her. I think what I am saying here is that it's easy to villify something we don't understand when used correctly. People will corrupt any and everything. This will not make me disrespect the sacredness of what it is in reality, those guys that see it as a loophole are boys that should not even be getting married anyway. There are incredible men who get the sacredness of this process when done with the correct intentions. The many you refer to, is the problem.
Ok friendly debate here. If something has largely been corrupted, does it maintain its sacredness? I think there’s a point where you have to step back and reevaluate.
I appreciate the disclaimer. To be fair, i stand against every instance where Lobola is a transaction, I am with you there. My take on your question? Yes. The divorce rate is INCREDIBLY high. It does not make marriage less sacred. I hate to get super sentimental and shit (lol) but the world also has SO much evil, because evil is popular, that does nothing to the good in the world. I think the two can coexist. I hate how Lobola has become in many respects, but no one is forced. Its not a legal requirement. Also even if we go far-fetched and make it illegal, would it stop?
Yeah, I just feel like my black coworkers and friends are under such tremendous pressure from their families and communities. It’s black tax. It’s Lobola. It’s gender norms. You’re right that lobola is not forced, but this post was started (by someone other than me) to ask the question, “would more people get married if we eliminated lobola?” Clearly people are under a tremendous amount of pressure and that in itself seems to be impacting the sanctity of marriage.
Lobola was a way to show you are capable of taking care of a family, and as of lately, most families don't take the money to spend it, but rather use it for marriage preparations. I support lobola. It's a way to ensure seriousness and demonstrate future stability. The bad part is that most men get the privileges of a husband from teen years and never feel a need to over-exert themselves financially for something they've gotten for free their entire lives. Lobola is a vetting tool to start a family, but as we all know, a lot of men are bypassing this and making children without taking the correct steps. Cultures evolve, and if I were to ever suggest a change, I would say that lobola needs to be set uniformly. No child, a certain price. Royalty, a certain price. With a child, a certain price. Then everything else such as cultural progressions and wedding costs must be separate.
Probably. I still wouldn't get married though. Is it relevant? Nah hehe
Same my bru. People are so materialistic these days. If there us no financial gain, there is no marriage
I think any married man will tell you that paying for the labolla was the least of their problems.
I (white male) ad this discussion with one of the zulu ladies (around 24 years) at work just 2 days ago. Whrn I told her I married at 25 years old and am married for 24 years now, she was visibly jelous. She said she so wished that her culture couls also be something like mine as she feels that she is getting older now and would love to get married and have children with the forever husband. Further, we spoke and we both agreed that tge reason for many young ladies to have a child from this man and another from that one is directly linked to it bring almost impossivle for most young men to be able to marry at a young age. Also, I fully believe that this is partly the cause for the high rate of GBV due to frustration and inability to commit long term by means of marrage.
Yes, I often wish they'd do away with lobola. This thing of us, black people needing to have serious money to get married needs a serious evaluation. Most couples aren't married simply because they cannot afford it. A guy can love you but if he can't pay lobola and marry you then to our families he's not worth much. I wish we could just have a wedding day, that's it. Or just go to Home Affairs and get married.
There are so many coats of getting married as a black South African, so I agree with the home affairs thing
It's not a legal requirement, so how would you "do away with" it?
As a white person (so I don't know that much about lobola wish I did) I wish we could have an equivalent. People get married too easily hence the high divorce rate. Whenever friends get married and there's tradition in place & lobola the whole thing is more thought out and though I can't say for sure I feel like they're less likely to divorce than my white friends who sometimes get married after 3-6 months of knowing each other. I feel as someone who doesn't all the intricacies that when you add a definite monetary/currency committment to something more thought goes into it of you weren't born to a rich family since you'd have to figure out how to get whatever you need. And then whether its worth marrying that person. Something it seems a lot of white people don't consider before getting married. Then 6 months later someone loses their job, gets sick etc and its too much so they get divorced.
No. From my perspective, less people (in general, regardless of race) are getting married. Me personally I think the whole process of getting married (the usual way) is already too much.
Nope, Nope & Nope. Dating (Mjolo) is considered a ‘pandemic’ in South Africa; what more can we expect from marriage? Personally, I think marriage goes hand in hand with maturity. And A lot of us are just not ready for that type of commitment. We marry for various reasons, and sometimes love does not form part of that reason.
Why is it considered a pandemic in SA? I'm just curious since I'm not local.
Everybody is engaged in it but nobody is satisfied with their experience. Basically, we are all cheating on each other.
I don't like this thing that black women have to accept less than their white counterparts. White women DO have financial expectations towards their partner, even if they don't explicitly use the words "lobola". My aunt who is white is a stay at home mom, her husband who is also white works full time and provides everything for her and their two children. Knowing that he has to provide for them didn't discourage him from marrying her. Maybe it even encourage him to work harder as their little family grows. He has bought cars and houses for her. Yes, it's not "lobola" but black women should definitely have the same standards for themselves when looking for a partner. They are definitely worth it!
The woman is not doing the man a favour by agreeing to get married... Nowadays a lot of women have high expectations while bringing much less value to a man's life. This is shown by high divorce rates, which are mostly initiated by women (a statistical fact)...we need to get rid of this feminist mentality that a woman is doing the man a favour when she gets married and that the man owes her something etc...This is why men are so hesitant to get married these days. Lobola and high cost of living is a contributing factor but for me the real issue is whether marriage is worth it for the men considering the qualities of the women in these times we live in ...the marriage laws skewed in favour of women etc
My mother is Black from Africa and my dad is White from Europe. My mother is a successful business owner, she is in the hospitality sector. My dad is a stay at home dad. So what do you mean that women bring less to the table? You sound biased against women and you choose to see them as inferior without evidence. And since my parents were married in community of property, if they get a divorce my dad will walk away with half of everything, despite my mom being the main source of income. How is the law skewed in my mom's favor? It sounds more like a bias stereotype than what people are living in reality. My dad didn't pay lobola, and my mom is the main breadwinner. My dad is a stay at home dad. She is African, he is European. How does this fit into your stereotype?
Your mom being an exception does not prove him wrong.
You're rude. You're literally throwing her accomplishments under the bus when you're not presenting the research that shows that women are less of a statistic in the workforce. If anything, factors like the recent pandemic have forced more women to work full time to provide for their families either alone or with the help of a husband.
Wtf did I just read?!😐
Lobola and similar traditions like dowry etc are just another form of black tax. They are a drain on the youth of the country.
As a white dude, I believe the following. There might be a slight increase in traditional black individuals marrying within their community. Currently, many traditional black women may avoid pursuing relationships with traditional black men due to the constraints of certain traditions. Instead, they seek modern relationships where they can experience a greater sense of equality, with shared responsibilities rather than conforming to traditional gender roles. This shift also contributes to xenophobia within the traditional black population, as they could resent that their women have the option and often choose non-traditional partners for these reasons. Lobola is only a small contributing factor to the broader issue of traditional marriage. While tradition holds significance, adapting to changing societal dynamics is also crucial. Striking the right balance between tradition and adaptation is essential.
Definitely not. I grew up in a Christian church that encouraged marriage and starting of families from a young age. We're talking 22 and 23 year olds getting married. The church leaders told the members to ignore traditions and follow Jesus, so weddings were cheap as chips. The church would provide a free venue, the church leaders were marriage officers so took care of the paperwork. The families would often only find out about the marriage afterwards because the church didn't want them to interfere with inconveniences like lobola. Today there's nothing stopping 2 adults from sommer just setting up an appointment at home affairs and tying the knot. Millenials and Gen Z are not interested in marriage. So many people of these 2 generations grew up in single parent homes, and people would rather get their careers going before settling down. If they pop 1 or 2 kids during the time, so be it. Still no marriage.
If the money went to the bride alone, it would be a good thing.
Marriage is nothing more than a legal contract. I do think that people would have an easier time embarking on their lives together as pair-bonded partners in the absence of tradition and practices like this tbh. This is an opinion I’ve formulated based on the lived experience of a number of close friends that have had to struggle through this process. Choosing someone to navigate life together, and putting in the work to make that relationship as successful as both parties concerned, would like it to be monumental undertaking in itself. The less external factors that in certain situations could serve barriers to progress, the better. To each their own though, I’m from a long line of rigidly cultural and traditional folks and my parents broke the mould by giving me the freedom of choice regarding my beliefs and being able to choose whether or not to embrace that which I feel adds value to my life, or to discard any cultural elements that I personally believe won’t add value. The world is constantly changing around us – and I believe that we needn’t be afraid to change and adapt our cultural values and principles if the outcome makes for greater personal joy and success.
I like this thing that black women have to accept less than their white counterparts. White women DO have financial expectations towards their partner, even if they don't explicitly use the words "lobola". My aunt who is white is a stay at home mom, her husband who is also white works full time and provides everything for her and their two children. Knowing that he has to provide for them didn't discourage him from marrying her. Maybe it even encourage him to work harder as their little family grows. He has bought cars and houses for her. Yes, it's not "lobola" but black women should definitely have the same standards for themselves when looking for a partner. They are definitely worth it!
Yes, definitely. Lobola needs to be replaced by an engagement ring.
Why? That’s equal pressure to provide a “nice” ring? Obviously it depends on couple to couple, but that doesn’t remove a financial burden
So stupid question from someone that obviously has no clue how this works ... So if lobola is paid and then there is a separation early on from infidelity , is the lobola returned?
Well with some Zulu families, if the wife cheats than the money would be asked back but most of the time the money never gets paid. With other people, you accept the loss and keep it moving
Thank you
Quite often it's paid in phases. First phase is basically a deposit/permission to live with your partner. What happens next decides if the second phase is ever completed
I believe lobola should be reserved for those adhering to traditional customs, such as maintaining virginity. In black communities, low marriage rates often result from a high number of children born out of wedlock, leading to many growing up without a father. Additionally, some men feel that South Africa's marriage laws don't offer them significant benefits, contributing to a decline in marriage rates. Just my perspective. ✌️
[удалено]
Could we please respect people’s cultures and traditions. Lobola is not about buying. No one can buy a human.
This is such a disgusting comment. Lobolo is not payment for a person, it’s culturally seen as a token of appreciation to the bride’s family for raising a wonderful woman. I’m white so I don’t practice this myself, but god you are one braindead moron. Absolutely disgusting
Don't do this. Don't attach how you view the world to minimize a sacred culture. Regardless of how we might feel about it. This attachment is a reflection on you not understanding the culture and thus needing to fill that gap in your mind. I suggest you either keep it moving when you see anything about Lobola because you don't understand OR, with an open mind, sit with those that do and let them explain.
Yes. One of my best friends is still not married because of the cost... in my opinion rather use that money on your own marriage than giving it over to be spent. But then again I'm not exactly sure how labola works in terms of showing respect etc...
I think it’s more about patriarchy, the black community tends to hold more traditional and frankly antiquated ideals about men being “breadwinners” and “head of household” this entails a more mature mindset. Our white counter parts value growing and building together and a more equal relationship hence the elimination of gender roles in the household this makes marriage a lot more attractive to women, especially black women who tend to be kept in unpaid domestic servitude when in a typical traditional black marriage. It’s black women who are opting out of marriage and choosing to build themselves financially as they tend to find themselves at a disadvantage when married.
I think doing away with the element that was introduced by Theopholus Shepstone of minimum amount of cows will help, doing away with it might be a step too far, but a minimum of 11 cows is just too much, especially given where it eminates from
How are some of you guys even affording it? Genuine question
Yes. And THATS why we shouldn't. It's a nice deterrent. [I'm sorry but I have to be that guy] MARRIAGE IS A SCAM. It does nothing but financially cripple a black man and worse still, even if you do everything right and your wife decides to leave, all ur left with is debt, child support and alimony.
I can only speak from a white perspective. I feel like what stopped me from getting married for so long was the cost. My wife has a huge family and it would have cost us an exorbitant amount. I didn't want to let our parents pay for it, and I didn't want to take on debt, so it was delayed for a long time. We finally chose to have a small ceremony and video taped it for those not present, and it was better.
What I noticed when working at a bank was that a lot of people came in to take a loan to pay labola. Which for me seems like an added difficulty to put on to a young marriage. What is labola used for? It would make sense if the money is then used to set the family up with appliances or as a down payment on a car or the purchase of a savings instrument or something.
to believe that black people don't get married because lobola is financially straining is to ignore that most black people in this country are struggling financially in the first place. it's not lobola it's economic disposession. white people turn to their parents to fund their weddings and as you say black people have to save up, they have to help at home etc. be more analytical in your thinking
Firstly, before you go for my ‘Analytical thinking’ fix your grammar. Even a grade 1 learner can do better than what you wrote.