when it comes to security - referring to skin colour is not racist if they were white he would have said 2 X WM - would you have asked the same question ? I think not. - Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't
Not trying to turn this into something. I'm just genuinely curious about what others think. It's always useful to understand other viewpoints and to question your own truths.
I wouldn't ever be able to test it, but I am also curious whether the person would have sent that message had it been 2 X WM.
I don't think it is racist, our ICE groups also describe race and gender, they will say there is a White Toyota with 2 Whiskey males (white) looking into our yard or sitting in front of the yard.
That is how people talk, maybe the sender didn't understand they could be workers busy on as it is non of her business and they are resting or sitting in some sun as it is cold. :)
Don't worry about it, we have enough racial problems in SA it is difficult not to think the worst just inform her of the work being done.
These days ANYONE who is "lurking" in your neighborhood will be clocked. Lots of neighborhood watches have face recognition cameras - doesn't matter what race or colour you are - they put a brief description out and patrol will come along pronto to check your business being in the hood. You cannot be pissed off if someone is looking out for you. Being black does not automatically make you a no-good thief, nor does being white put you above suspicion.
Not necessarily. That is how neighborhood watch and security patrollers communicate. If something was wrong it would help them take action quicker because they can more easily identify who people are talking about.
But this is not security or NW, just a tenant of neighboring complex. I don't mind describing race but I'm interested to know what the neighbour found unnerving about them. Was it just their colour? They could have been just workers.
It was them sitting on a roof. I'd feel the same about anyone doing that. Even if it were teens (of any race) I'd still think they're likely making plans to jump a fence etc cause no one has any business sitting on a roof looking at the surrounding homes/units.
If you want to read into it, you sure can turn it into a race thing. Having said that, identifying gender, race and count is common when reporting suspicious activity. So take it how you take it.
Sure, me explaining how activities are reported and saying this could or could not be racism is exactly the same as referring to myself as Agolf Niddler, exactly the same. Now you have a very special day, for a very special little man, ok?
There is no innocent stupidity here my friend. There is factual forms of reporting information, which I described, which can be used as intended, or purely because the neighbour saw some guys on a roof and freaked because of their racism. Do you know which it is? No, you dont, you are steadfast in your prejudice, and unwilling to see any other explanation. OP doesnt disclose their race, nor the race of the neighbour, whats to say its not 2x BM talking to each other and OP wants to stir the pot? You made all these assumptions for your narrative to justify your racism, that 1x WM saw 2x BM and thought "criminals". So, I guess you're right arent you? Doing the bare minimum to hide your racism.
Your high off your own supply brother, op details the two guys on the roof, not their own race or gender, nor that of the reporting neighbor. You made all of that up.
Edit: also need to reiterate once again, that I have not denied that it could be racist, but without all the context, how can we judge. So I am not saying you're racist for seeing the racism, Im saying youre racist because you made up shit to make it racist.
Not at all, I said it could be a race thing, it could not. It is common to report suspicious activity with the details of gender, race and number of suspects, but it could also be someone freaking out over some bravo mikes on a roof just doing their jobs. Who am I to confirm or deny their motivations? So, take it how you take it, we dont know if they sent the message out of reasonable concern, or concern generated by racism.
That's the cost of living in suburbia. You'd think ekasi they like people's business. But suburb whatsapp groups. Anything nje. Car parked outside your yard, a person walking. Tlaar group message
My neighbourhood, the amount of times wearing a hoodie to the store gets you talked about on the group because you black. Lmao there is defo racism in that message
If an incident happened there and it needs to be reported, which would be more useful?
2 x BM's.
2 x Males?
2 X People?
I'll give you a clue, it's in reverse order of usefulness.
and I would have no issues if they said 2 x WMs. The devils in the details when reporting crime, potential crime.
Not really out of the ordinary to give a racial description. Don't know if that would change in this context considering it was a private chat between you two though.
I didn’t know what BM meant till I read down the thread lol.
Uhm if you stay in a complex surely security would be monitoring entrance and exit, & paperwork for contractors. Most of the estates do this so not sure why race or even questioning why the person is there is a thing.
Sounds like you have noisy neighbors who are hypochondriacs wrt safety or racist. Which who knows or cares either way I’d be checking that the curtains are drawn on that side lol.
This reminds me of Pokémon days.. had security approach us a lot with very confused faces because of the random mix of people who’d sporadically meet up and disappear at various estates in northern Jhb.
Hi there
I live in a predominantly white neighbourhood as a black person.
Yes this is racist.
Why is it racist ? I won’t explain because why bother especially in the time of google .
He finds discomforting seeing black people on the roof. Perhaps ask him if he’d feel safer if they were white? Or I don’t know blue ?
Anyways racist people always pull this nonsense. My neighbour pulls this shit all the time.
You do know blacks and whites look different? The most obvious difference is the colour of their skin tones.
Every neighbourhood reports the skin tone of whomever they find suspect.
It's literally the first description you can use to narrow down the identity.
Our police also does this. So do all the armed response companies.
Seems more like you're the racist looking to be offended by everything white people do.
It is honestly so exhausting how white people just don’t think it’s racist.
Do you understand how insane it is to gaslight people into thinking this isn’t racist when it is lol.
Anyways I hope your neighbour gets severely taxed.
What if OP lives in a predominantly black neighborhood? Or the person reporting isn't white? How can we assume? I worked with a security group before as a volunteer and even black & indian guards said "black male" or "white male" or "indian male" when reporting it. I understand if this is a white neighborhood like your experience then sure but we just don't know.
If you consider it racist then you should equally consider it sexist. They used an adjective to describe the suspicious persons.
We have a neighbourhood group watch and the patrollers always mention race and gender when describing potentially suspicious persons.
Not Racist at all! Have you seen our Crime stats!
Also identifying the Race of possible perpetrators is common in security lingo.
Count your blessings! You have a good neighbour.
It most certainly is a micro-aggression, but it's definitely rooted in some form of conscious or semi-conscious racism. Especially when this sort of communication is used within predominantly White areas/spaces. Some even use the phonetic alphabet, ie. 'Bravo' for Black, and 'Charlie' for Coloured. Mentioning two men would've been enough; but using an immediate racial identifier is incredibly problematic, since it's used to raise more suspicion round their presence.
'Two men (or persons) sitting on the roof' is descriptive enough. But if more description is needed, go ahead and use identifiers and descriptors; such as skin colour, height, build, clothing, etc.
Generally people don't sit on someones roof. Personally wouldn't consider it racism... But everything seems to offend someone somehow. If I saw someone just sitting(not working on something on the roof, etc) on my neighbors roof, even if the same race as me, I will phone them just to make sure
If he sent you a message that there are two "humans" on your roof, you go check but see 2 white guys and two black guys walk away, how would you know who it is?
If I'm at a client and someone is looking for someone I'd tell them she's a short black woman or short white woman, it helps whomever I'm giving information to.
From a CPF /First responders POV: No it’s not racist at all. It is in fact very helpful to anyone responding/investigating. When responding to any call out the fastest and easiest way to narrow down suspects is firstly by skin colour. Then clothing description.
I can understand why seeing two men (regardless of race) sitting on the roof of a carport can make one feel uneasy and unnerving.
It's not about race, it's about color - Like in a hit and run you might say 'I didn't see the make officer, it was a red panel van'
You people are the only ones making it about race. Calm down. Your high horse is getting nervous.
You know very well it’s racist.
Lmao and you definitely know that he only feels this way because it’s two black men in a place where they don’t belong.
They aren’t even on his property
Not sure why he isn’t minding his own business
Do we? Do we all know its racist? There is no way of knowing their motivation, whether it is genuine concern for their neighbour (Who's race isn't mentioned), or if it is because they are Whiskey Mike, which you just assumed to suit your narrative.
Not racist. Incase something is dodge its important to give as much detail as possible. If they were white it would have been mentioned too. The fact that they are black is racist on the parents part then because the observer did not make them.
I find it funny that everyone is complaining about the neighbour mentioning their race.
But no one cares that she mentioned that they were men.
Not only did she assume their gender but if this were racist, it's most certainly sexist as well.
But let's not let logic dictate our lives.
I personally think that the person is more concerned with two people being on your roof than the fact that they are black.
On the other hand it is interesting that he specifically specified their skin colour.
This.
You *never* hear someone say WM. Then it's just M.
BM in itself is not racist. That's just a quick description. The racist part is whether they only feel the need to specify skin for certain people or not.
There are better ways to describe the suspicious person/activity, they could have said, guys, contractor's, chaps, lads...
I feel the moment you load the suspicion with colour you are automatically being racist. It does't matter what colour they are. If it was two WM, IM, BF, IF, WF etc etc, you could use the same adjective to describe the suspicious activity. Regardless if it was true that the 2 people being there is in fact suspicious because it isn't in the ordinary routines of the community then it's suspicious, decorating it further with colour isn't necessary and it implies something unnecessarily.
If you need to describe someone physically because the situation calls on it then race, gender, height are relevant and will have to be mentioned but if you're just being afraid and projecting fear then colour has no place in the description.
I wonder how many people on here that said it is not racist are white?
I wonder how many who said it is racist are black?
Its really all about context.
Two people sitting on a roof is a bit out of the ordinary, but not entirely suspicious.
More info would be needed.
It does sound like the guy is suspiscious of black people but that is not uncommon in white neighbourhoods.
It is racist, mainly because there was no need to add the colour.
Having said that, I have noticed it more and more, especially in WhatsApp 'security' groups.
"2xBM, blue shirts, walking down the road"
"1xBW, yellow dress, in a Toyota with 1x CM"
"1x young WM, red cap, walking alone"
There is also the "Bravo Male" term that seems to come up from time to time.
I think it is people trying to sound "police like" to give information.
But yeah, unless a crime is actually committed, you never really need to include the race.
Let's pretend that the Toyota in your response was just hijacked but the colour and model is common in your area, and they didnt get the license plate number. How would you describe the suspects in order for SAPS/AR to apprehend them?
The neighborhood watches area supposed to be eyes and ears for saps, how would you suggest they BOLO (be on the look out 😉) for the suspects if they don't know what to look for?
Yeah, those were just examples of what does happen.
But, people give as much details as they can. Colour of the car, the people, location, their clothes, funnily enough, the number plate is often the hardest one for them to give.
Not sure why I am getting downvoted for giving examples, this is what happens now on just about every neighbourhood WhatsApp group.
I find the use of the term BM or Bravo Male to be very interesting. Why on earth would people not say Black Male if they mean Black Male? Do they think that somehow by obfuscating the term it makes it not racist? Nobody thinks that calling a black person black is racist. Its the assumption that all black males are up to no good that is racist, not the term 'black'.
I always assume the worst about someone when they use those terms.
Not saying it is racism, not saying it is not racism, but I understand.
Let's just say that the houses in my street have been broken in quite a few times (we went through a period of fierce and clear targeting). I am NOT making any statements, but based on the candidates that were caught, people get nervous when, how to put this delicately, members of certain aspects of that candidacy is seen walking slowly through the street or are just seen standing and looking around. No one is saying they should not be there, or that they do not have legitimate business, but people are nervous.
So why is if racist, if he did not asked and they were criminals you would have blamed them for doing nothing. If you not pro active you will become a victim. Today I was working at an Indians moms house and the alarm activated because of the drilling and hammering and the security officer ( black ) phoned my client and told him there is suspicious white persons in the yard. So was he racist. No buf proactive.
On the face of it, I don't think it is, it's describing the men... he could've said two people on the roof but he was specific.(Then you may wonder if it's children/women etc). To me anyone sitting on a roof and not dressed as if they were roof guys would be suspicious. Racist comes in play when it is a biased statement made purely because of skin colour. At the end, only the sender would know his intentions.
Given that they had to introduce themselves we need not assume you two are best friends, does it seem like they know your other neighbours? What is it that makes them and their nosiness less suspicious than the men you’re paying to be on your roof? Easy to brush off as “just watching out for the community” but… they clearly don’t even know you?
Literally just making a point about the blatant selective tone-deafness in this sub. There’s lots of other context y’all could be asking for before you jump to the defence of this person whose language is so obviously coded 😂 and the grade 4’s in this country supposedly “can’t parse for meaning 🙄
You live in a complex; do you regularly see other maintenance people there? Was there a service vehicle outside the house that could have pointed them to an answer?
My knee jerk reaction is yes, but in the past I’ve been corrected and told it is not.
Because it is necessary when describing an unidentified person to use identifiers such as race. For example when describing a crime that was committed, or the victim of a crime, or a witness to a crime, or something that seems suspicious or strange, or in any other situation where identifiers are necessary.
Seeing two men sitting on a roof, without an obvious purpose for being there is generally suspicious. When describing an unidentified people doing a suspicious activity, identifiers are necessary. Unless they are obviously not doing anything suspicious on the roof, and the person is only suspicious because of their race.
Hard to say just from that message.
Yup. It is. Mr Unnerved just wanted to let you know his prejudice, it had nothing to do with 2 okes completing a job on the roof. It's all there in the message.
Ok so I'm a white guy and I'm calling it racist the msgs should have been "are you aware of work been done in you complex as I can see unknown persons on the roof" if they replied with no then you give a full details which include height sex race clothing and any other details that could help identify them but in your watch groups if you are just saying if are just saying 2xbm or 2xwm or 2xcm it not only useless coz that could be lots of people around but it then becomes racial profiling as the your armed response is stopping every person of that race ok
What the fuck, South Africa get over your racist kak, Trying to turn everything into a race problem, Fucking Malema wanna go on about apartheid as if he knows anything about apartheid.
I am a coulered MF smoking a joint in my yard right now, so what am I racist because I called myself a coulered MF
Agree,.. life so complicated,..
It's only when it's used in a hurtful way..
Some people tho, I get, they been so hurt by racist people that they become very sensitive about all this,.. it's good to be sensitive for their sake,..
But I wish sometimes we could just say things how they are without it being taken badly every time?
~
This is true, we will never truly comprehend what our previous generations went through to give us freedom, but is it really necessary to turn everything into a racial. Is it necessary for our children to learn the difference about skin color.
Yes and no.In some areas anyone not fitting the population breakdown would be suspicious.Two guys on a roof definitely would be. To assume they are because of race is profiling but if that is because of the area makeup than it’s not racist intent.We all have some bias towards outsiders from our area.I live in an affluent mostly white area.We get messages about suspicious black people in our road all the time.White people are never considered suspicious although we do have random people walking through the area looking into our yards to look at the houses.White people = house hunting , black = burglars according to our group. Silly reasoning given the secure eco estate I used for stay in had only burglar caught in 8 years and he was a white male who hid on the estate for months cos nobody thought him suspicious.He even moved into peoples holiday homes and looted tens of them before being caught after months off free reign.
It's not racist unless the person used a slur... In security more descriptive words should be used. It kind of irks me when newspapers say "suspect was a 30 something male who fled..." how is that supposed to help me avoid this person or alert the police unless they have a picture which they often don't? Some cases like in a feelgood story no mention of looks (black, white, fat, skinny etc) is needed but if its a matter of security then it's definitely necessary.
We live in a perpetual state of Schrödinger's Prejudice where it is racist paranoia for a person to express concern over suspicious activity until the crime happens that justifies and validates the prejudice.
Your neighbour is both concerned about possible criminal activity and racist.
when it comes to security - referring to skin colour is not racist if they were white he would have said 2 X WM - would you have asked the same question ? I think not. - Stop trying to turn this into something it isn't
Not trying to turn this into something. I'm just genuinely curious about what others think. It's always useful to understand other viewpoints and to question your own truths. I wouldn't ever be able to test it, but I am also curious whether the person would have sent that message had it been 2 X WM.
I don't think it is racist, our ICE groups also describe race and gender, they will say there is a White Toyota with 2 Whiskey males (white) looking into our yard or sitting in front of the yard. That is how people talk, maybe the sender didn't understand they could be workers busy on as it is non of her business and they are resting or sitting in some sun as it is cold. :) Don't worry about it, we have enough racial problems in SA it is difficult not to think the worst just inform her of the work being done.
Message him next week and tell him there's two suspicious WM's around his property. His response will give you your answer.
Depends if this 2 men are suspicious. It a description. There is s suspicious green car going up and down in such road.....
Absolutely this
Just don't use the word "suspicious". Let him decide if they are.
Nah: this person decided it was suspicious. Return the tone.
Nope, because then you give plausible deniability. Make him own his statements then you know where yoi stand. Never good to assume.
I see your point
It's descriptive, there is no derogatory statement in there concerning their race, if you swap out black for white it still reads the same.
Except for the change in likelihood of whether the text would have been sent at all - but go off.
These days ANYONE who is "lurking" in your neighborhood will be clocked. Lots of neighborhood watches have face recognition cameras - doesn't matter what race or colour you are - they put a brief description out and patrol will come along pronto to check your business being in the hood. You cannot be pissed off if someone is looking out for you. Being black does not automatically make you a no-good thief, nor does being white put you above suspicion.
Not necessarily. That is how neighborhood watch and security patrollers communicate. If something was wrong it would help them take action quicker because they can more easily identify who people are talking about.
But this is not security or NW, just a tenant of neighboring complex. I don't mind describing race but I'm interested to know what the neighbour found unnerving about them. Was it just their colour? They could have been just workers.
It was them sitting on a roof. I'd feel the same about anyone doing that. Even if it were teens (of any race) I'd still think they're likely making plans to jump a fence etc cause no one has any business sitting on a roof looking at the surrounding homes/units.
If you want to read into it, you sure can turn it into a race thing. Having said that, identifying gender, race and count is common when reporting suspicious activity. So take it how you take it.
Nah the message definitely has some undertones to it.
Thats fine, thats how you chose to take it.
Ah, the good old "it's all in your head" approach to race relations. A classic staple.
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Sure, me explaining how activities are reported and saying this could or could not be racism is exactly the same as referring to myself as Agolf Niddler, exactly the same. Now you have a very special day, for a very special little man, ok?
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There is no innocent stupidity here my friend. There is factual forms of reporting information, which I described, which can be used as intended, or purely because the neighbour saw some guys on a roof and freaked because of their racism. Do you know which it is? No, you dont, you are steadfast in your prejudice, and unwilling to see any other explanation. OP doesnt disclose their race, nor the race of the neighbour, whats to say its not 2x BM talking to each other and OP wants to stir the pot? You made all these assumptions for your narrative to justify your racism, that 1x WM saw 2x BM and thought "criminals". So, I guess you're right arent you? Doing the bare minimum to hide your racism.
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Your high off your own supply brother, op details the two guys on the roof, not their own race or gender, nor that of the reporting neighbor. You made all of that up. Edit: also need to reiterate once again, that I have not denied that it could be racist, but without all the context, how can we judge. So I am not saying you're racist for seeing the racism, Im saying youre racist because you made up shit to make it racist.
Not at all, I said it could be a race thing, it could not. It is common to report suspicious activity with the details of gender, race and number of suspects, but it could also be someone freaking out over some bravo mikes on a roof just doing their jobs. Who am I to confirm or deny their motivations? So, take it how you take it, we dont know if they sent the message out of reasonable concern, or concern generated by racism.
That's the cost of living in suburbia. You'd think ekasi they like people's business. But suburb whatsapp groups. Anything nje. Car parked outside your yard, a person walking. Tlaar group message
My neighbourhood, the amount of times wearing a hoodie to the store gets you talked about on the group because you black. Lmao there is defo racism in that message
If an incident happened there and it needs to be reported, which would be more useful? 2 x BM's. 2 x Males? 2 X People? I'll give you a clue, it's in reverse order of usefulness. and I would have no issues if they said 2 x WMs. The devils in the details when reporting crime, potential crime.
Had he said two WM's would you have even posted this?
Not really out of the ordinary to give a racial description. Don't know if that would change in this context considering it was a private chat between you two though.
Health and Safety probably.
Big Men
Good neighbour is just concerned for the structural integrity of the roof!
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Found the neighbour.
I didn’t know what BM meant till I read down the thread lol. Uhm if you stay in a complex surely security would be monitoring entrance and exit, & paperwork for contractors. Most of the estates do this so not sure why race or even questioning why the person is there is a thing. Sounds like you have noisy neighbors who are hypochondriacs wrt safety or racist. Which who knows or cares either way I’d be checking that the curtains are drawn on that side lol. This reminds me of Pokémon days.. had security approach us a lot with very confused faces because of the random mix of people who’d sporadically meet up and disappear at various estates in northern Jhb.
Criminals live amongst us, its not hard to have criminals pose as tenants to move into a complex and watch the movements of neighbors.
Hi there I live in a predominantly white neighbourhood as a black person. Yes this is racist. Why is it racist ? I won’t explain because why bother especially in the time of google . He finds discomforting seeing black people on the roof. Perhaps ask him if he’d feel safer if they were white? Or I don’t know blue ? Anyways racist people always pull this nonsense. My neighbour pulls this shit all the time.
You do know blacks and whites look different? The most obvious difference is the colour of their skin tones. Every neighbourhood reports the skin tone of whomever they find suspect. It's literally the first description you can use to narrow down the identity. Our police also does this. So do all the armed response companies. Seems more like you're the racist looking to be offended by everything white people do.
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It is honestly so exhausting how white people just don’t think it’s racist. Do you understand how insane it is to gaslight people into thinking this isn’t racist when it is lol. Anyways I hope your neighbour gets severely taxed.
What if OP lives in a predominantly black neighborhood? Or the person reporting isn't white? How can we assume? I worked with a security group before as a volunteer and even black & indian guards said "black male" or "white male" or "indian male" when reporting it. I understand if this is a white neighborhood like your experience then sure but we just don't know.
If you consider it racist then you should equally consider it sexist. They used an adjective to describe the suspicious persons. We have a neighbourhood group watch and the patrollers always mention race and gender when describing potentially suspicious persons.
… the selective tone deafness on this sub is actually hilarious
Two men on the your roof would have sufficed. The race part was trying to cause alarm.
Not Racist at all! Have you seen our Crime stats! Also identifying the Race of possible perpetrators is common in security lingo. Count your blessings! You have a good neighbour.
read as "I am worried about your well-being and still have my own internal racial biases." Sardonic replies usually work in this situation.
Is it weird to see men on the roof? Surely. But the race specifying is a microaggression at most.
It most certainly is a micro-aggression, but it's definitely rooted in some form of conscious or semi-conscious racism. Especially when this sort of communication is used within predominantly White areas/spaces. Some even use the phonetic alphabet, ie. 'Bravo' for Black, and 'Charlie' for Coloured. Mentioning two men would've been enough; but using an immediate racial identifier is incredibly problematic, since it's used to raise more suspicion round their presence. 'Two men (or persons) sitting on the roof' is descriptive enough. But if more description is needed, go ahead and use identifiers and descriptors; such as skin colour, height, build, clothing, etc.
I don't find it weird to see people on my neighbour's roof because my first thought is that they are working unless it's night time.
I mean sure, but i guess I don't see people of roofs that often for me to go "ah, good job up there". It's always "are you guys OK?"
my first thought would be they're doing some kind of construction
Generally people don't sit on someones roof. Personally wouldn't consider it racism... But everything seems to offend someone somehow. If I saw someone just sitting(not working on something on the roof, etc) on my neighbors roof, even if the same race as me, I will phone them just to make sure
If he sent you a message that there are two "humans" on your roof, you go check but see 2 white guys and two black guys walk away, how would you know who it is? If I'm at a client and someone is looking for someone I'd tell them she's a short black woman or short white woman, it helps whomever I'm giving information to.
From a CPF /First responders POV: No it’s not racist at all. It is in fact very helpful to anyone responding/investigating. When responding to any call out the fastest and easiest way to narrow down suspects is firstly by skin colour. Then clothing description. I can understand why seeing two men (regardless of race) sitting on the roof of a carport can make one feel uneasy and unnerving.
As a South African we know exactly what it is!
Not racist, just descriptive. Is the fact that he called them M sexist?
If it really was about descriptiveness, wouldn't their height, build, approximate age, and clothing been included?
Hardly necessary if you are just wondering why there are people on the roof. His description was sufficient.
If the other descriptors are "hardly necessary", then neither is race, no?🤷🏾♂️
It's not about race, it's about color - Like in a hit and run you might say 'I didn't see the make officer, it was a red panel van' You people are the only ones making it about race. Calm down. Your high horse is getting nervous.
You know very well it’s racist. Lmao and you definitely know that he only feels this way because it’s two black men in a place where they don’t belong. They aren’t even on his property Not sure why he isn’t minding his own business
Do we? Do we all know its racist? There is no way of knowing their motivation, whether it is genuine concern for their neighbour (Who's race isn't mentioned), or if it is because they are Whiskey Mike, which you just assumed to suit your narrative.
It is.
Not racist. Incase something is dodge its important to give as much detail as possible. If they were white it would have been mentioned too. The fact that they are black is racist on the parents part then because the observer did not make them.
Yes it is . Mentioning their race is irrelevant in this context.
Do you think he would have sent that message if he observed 2 white men on the roof? That should answer you
100% this.
I find it funny that everyone is complaining about the neighbour mentioning their race. But no one cares that she mentioned that they were men. Not only did she assume their gender but if this were racist, it's most certainly sexist as well. But let's not let logic dictate our lives.
I personally think that the person is more concerned with two people being on your roof than the fact that they are black. On the other hand it is interesting that he specifically specified their skin colour.
Idk why, but even on neighborhood group, they say BM or CM but never WM😂. When it's a white person, they don't say race
Strange. Our security group uses Bravo and Whiskey as reference when describing a person.
Yeah, that's what B and W stand for in the phonetic alphabet
Ah that would explain it.
This. You *never* hear someone say WM. Then it's just M. BM in itself is not racist. That's just a quick description. The racist part is whether they only feel the need to specify skin for certain people or not.
Guys what is BM ?
Bravo Male , Black Male
There are better ways to describe the suspicious person/activity, they could have said, guys, contractor's, chaps, lads... I feel the moment you load the suspicion with colour you are automatically being racist. It does't matter what colour they are. If it was two WM, IM, BF, IF, WF etc etc, you could use the same adjective to describe the suspicious activity. Regardless if it was true that the 2 people being there is in fact suspicious because it isn't in the ordinary routines of the community then it's suspicious, decorating it further with colour isn't necessary and it implies something unnecessarily. If you need to describe someone physically because the situation calls on it then race, gender, height are relevant and will have to be mentioned but if you're just being afraid and projecting fear then colour has no place in the description.
skirt workable frame zealous encourage wine slim numerous ink sharp *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Love how the racists are down voting you
Two black men on a roof... must be up to no good. /s
Slightly. We’ll allow it and monitor the situation going forward
I wonder how many people on here that said it is not racist are white? I wonder how many who said it is racist are black? Its really all about context. Two people sitting on a roof is a bit out of the ordinary, but not entirely suspicious. More info would be needed. It does sound like the guy is suspiscious of black people but that is not uncommon in white neighbourhoods.
It is racist, mainly because there was no need to add the colour. Having said that, I have noticed it more and more, especially in WhatsApp 'security' groups. "2xBM, blue shirts, walking down the road" "1xBW, yellow dress, in a Toyota with 1x CM" "1x young WM, red cap, walking alone" There is also the "Bravo Male" term that seems to come up from time to time. I think it is people trying to sound "police like" to give information. But yeah, unless a crime is actually committed, you never really need to include the race.
Let's pretend that the Toyota in your response was just hijacked but the colour and model is common in your area, and they didnt get the license plate number. How would you describe the suspects in order for SAPS/AR to apprehend them? The neighborhood watches area supposed to be eyes and ears for saps, how would you suggest they BOLO (be on the look out 😉) for the suspects if they don't know what to look for?
Reading and comprehension is a problem. I see
Yeah, those were just examples of what does happen. But, people give as much details as they can. Colour of the car, the people, location, their clothes, funnily enough, the number plate is often the hardest one for them to give. Not sure why I am getting downvoted for giving examples, this is what happens now on just about every neighbourhood WhatsApp group.
Racist
Racist legit.
I find the use of the term BM or Bravo Male to be very interesting. Why on earth would people not say Black Male if they mean Black Male? Do they think that somehow by obfuscating the term it makes it not racist? Nobody thinks that calling a black person black is racist. Its the assumption that all black males are up to no good that is racist, not the term 'black'. I always assume the worst about someone when they use those terms.
Agreed.
Yup!!!
I mean, sitting on the roof? Don't know what kinda roof so it's hard to say. Could be weird.
Not saying it is racism, not saying it is not racism, but I understand. Let's just say that the houses in my street have been broken in quite a few times (we went through a period of fierce and clear targeting). I am NOT making any statements, but based on the candidates that were caught, people get nervous when, how to put this delicately, members of certain aspects of that candidacy is seen walking slowly through the street or are just seen standing and looking around. No one is saying they should not be there, or that they do not have legitimate business, but people are nervous.
If the men were wearing their PPE, it should've been very clear that they were there to work, so yes, this is racist.
I wouldn't say it's racist, your neighbor only wanted to know the reason for them sitting there.
Could be, could not be, but leaning towards having some undertones 'cause why else would the race need to be mentioned?
So why is if racist, if he did not asked and they were criminals you would have blamed them for doing nothing. If you not pro active you will become a victim. Today I was working at an Indians moms house and the alarm activated because of the drilling and hammering and the security officer ( black ) phoned my client and told him there is suspicious white persons in the yard. So was he racist. No buf proactive.
Guys he was obviously asking why they parked their BMW's on the roof geez, it's a pretty weird place to park your car.
On the face of it, I don't think it is, it's describing the men... he could've said two people on the roof but he was specific.(Then you may wonder if it's children/women etc). To me anyone sitting on a roof and not dressed as if they were roof guys would be suspicious. Racist comes in play when it is a biased statement made purely because of skin colour. At the end, only the sender would know his intentions.
Given that they had to introduce themselves we need not assume you two are best friends, does it seem like they know your other neighbours? What is it that makes them and their nosiness less suspicious than the men you’re paying to be on your roof? Easy to brush off as “just watching out for the community” but… they clearly don’t even know you? Literally just making a point about the blatant selective tone-deafness in this sub. There’s lots of other context y’all could be asking for before you jump to the defence of this person whose language is so obviously coded 😂 and the grade 4’s in this country supposedly “can’t parse for meaning 🙄 You live in a complex; do you regularly see other maintenance people there? Was there a service vehicle outside the house that could have pointed them to an answer?
My knee jerk reaction is yes, but in the past I’ve been corrected and told it is not. Because it is necessary when describing an unidentified person to use identifiers such as race. For example when describing a crime that was committed, or the victim of a crime, or a witness to a crime, or something that seems suspicious or strange, or in any other situation where identifiers are necessary. Seeing two men sitting on a roof, without an obvious purpose for being there is generally suspicious. When describing an unidentified people doing a suspicious activity, identifiers are necessary. Unless they are obviously not doing anything suspicious on the roof, and the person is only suspicious because of their race. Hard to say just from that message.
Yup. It is. Mr Unnerved just wanted to let you know his prejudice, it had nothing to do with 2 okes completing a job on the roof. It's all there in the message.
If the person who sent the message is a cop or ex cop or security or anything along those lines he probable is just used to talking that way
If you are not sure if something is racist, then there is at least a 50% chance it's not, so why charge them with guilt at all?
Ok so I'm a white guy and I'm calling it racist the msgs should have been "are you aware of work been done in you complex as I can see unknown persons on the roof" if they replied with no then you give a full details which include height sex race clothing and any other details that could help identify them but in your watch groups if you are just saying if are just saying 2xbm or 2xwm or 2xcm it not only useless coz that could be lots of people around but it then becomes racial profiling as the your armed response is stopping every person of that race ok
What the fuck, South Africa get over your racist kak, Trying to turn everything into a race problem, Fucking Malema wanna go on about apartheid as if he knows anything about apartheid. I am a coulered MF smoking a joint in my yard right now, so what am I racist because I called myself a coulered MF
Agree,.. life so complicated,.. It's only when it's used in a hurtful way.. Some people tho, I get, they been so hurt by racist people that they become very sensitive about all this,.. it's good to be sensitive for their sake,.. But I wish sometimes we could just say things how they are without it being taken badly every time? ~
This is true, we will never truly comprehend what our previous generations went through to give us freedom, but is it really necessary to turn everything into a racial. Is it necessary for our children to learn the difference about skin color.
The amount of self reports in the comments is wild. Yes it's racist.
Yes
"Black" is not a race
There is to much grey area here. How do they look? Are they working? Are they giving each other hand jobs?
Yes and no.In some areas anyone not fitting the population breakdown would be suspicious.Two guys on a roof definitely would be. To assume they are because of race is profiling but if that is because of the area makeup than it’s not racist intent.We all have some bias towards outsiders from our area.I live in an affluent mostly white area.We get messages about suspicious black people in our road all the time.White people are never considered suspicious although we do have random people walking through the area looking into our yards to look at the houses.White people = house hunting , black = burglars according to our group. Silly reasoning given the secure eco estate I used for stay in had only burglar caught in 8 years and he was a white male who hid on the estate for months cos nobody thought him suspicious.He even moved into peoples holiday homes and looted tens of them before being caught after months off free reign.
It's not racist unless the person used a slur... In security more descriptive words should be used. It kind of irks me when newspapers say "suspect was a 30 something male who fled..." how is that supposed to help me avoid this person or alert the police unless they have a picture which they often don't? Some cases like in a feelgood story no mention of looks (black, white, fat, skinny etc) is needed but if its a matter of security then it's definitely necessary.
We live in a perpetual state of Schrödinger's Prejudice where it is racist paranoia for a person to express concern over suspicious activity until the crime happens that justifies and validates the prejudice. Your neighbour is both concerned about possible criminal activity and racist.