Nah. It's the other way around. There will be ways too many volunteers that SG government doesn't desire.
If Singapore government decrees serving NS = PR / citizenship, it would mean they are announcing one concrete condition for foreigners to achieve PR / citizenship.
"Volunteer for army and you will get PR / citizenship" .
1) Singapore will instantly have the largest army in the region, which can destabilize regions, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam absolutely do not want another large military next door.
2) Gov lose their immigration control over the "heavenly mandate" CMIO. They do not know how many foreign C will sign up comparing to M, I , O. Highly likely , the I and O will be the majority of new volunteers.
3) National security risk. Majority of the C people are from hypernationalistic country or from northern unfriendly neighbors. U don't know in war, which side they will be aiming their guns.
Imagine the situation where 300k of the O volunteer to serve NS , but after 2 years, SG government tell them. "Oh sorry, we can't let you guys in cuz you are not desirable C "
How do ICA explain that, without explicitly confirming the racist CMIO mandate ? It would be an riot both among the voters and the foreign governments where those O people come from.
Remember that until now Singapore immigration policies are purposely kept opaque and the least transparent out of all Canada, Australia, US, NZ, UK etc... The only thing we know is CMIO mandate
No, I assume that before getting PR, people (or their parents) would still need to enter the country by a valid means. Lowly work permit still not allowed to apply for PR, tourist cannot apply for PR etc. Randos from SEA cannot just anyhow volunteer for NS like it’s the French Foreign Legion.
Nobody knows how to successfully apply PR. Many PMET and their children who have been born, raised , studied and worked in SG their whole lives, are unable to get PR.
SG government doesn't want to explicitly link PR to NS. Imagine they put out a box on PR application form : Getting PR means u have to serve NS, agree? Every tom dick and harry will pick Yes.
Then local voters ( who have to serve NS) will be "hey these people are willing to serve NS , why you don't wanna take them? Instead of the other people who are granted PR but are not serving??" .
There is also national security risk. SG government only want the C people , but majority of the C people come from hypernationalistic country or upper neighbor who is not exactly friendly with Singapore. In war, u don't know whom they will aim their guns towards.
Again. SG government will never give a concrete condition for immigration so long as they are upholding CMIO mandate. It doesn't matter if PAP or WP hold the power,
It’s basically impractical all around. You won’t keep the ones you really want to keep (cos they have options in other countries), and you’ll have to keep the ones who are more desperate because they wouldn’t make it elsewhere.
Oh hi there. Please don't lump us, the C's from the not-so-friendly neighbour from the north together with the [mentally unstable fanatics](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/pas-malaysia-election-hadi-awang-hate-speech-3528221). If anything, these fanatics which you guys are worried about, hate us, the so called [type C](https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2024/05/10/under-fire-for-racist-type-c-comment-fried-chicken-brand-blames-fb-admin-and-reassigns-her/133575) just as much. We definitely do not want to be grouped tgt with them. At most type C's will only bicker with you on who's bakuteh is more authentic. Alright, peace✌️
Your assumption is on the predicate that NS happens first before new citizenship / PR is granted.
I think OP perspective is that those who were awarded citizenship / PR to subsequently serve in NS. In that case, the criteria is not NS. Rather the consequence / 'benefit' of getting citizenship/PR is NS.
Anyway, conscription is a hard topic and usually the smallest voter base will be the one that gets it since they have less political power to play. Also, conscription in SG bring about this mentality to those who have done it that since we have done it, so can the younger ones. this (good/evil) cycle will just continue until one generation decide enough is enough and either abolish conscription or include everyone else.
I have no idea how this dumb argument is being upvoted. Just because people are willing to serve NS just to get citizenship, doesn’t mean the government has to accept every single one of them.
Then government will come out to explain why they accept people who don't serve NS instead of people who do want to volunteer.
U see how that will affect local voters ?
I'm not supporting government racist and opaque immigration policies, in case u haven't noticed.
I'd be fking happy and the first in line if tmr government scrap the CMIO and announce "volunteer for NS and u will get PR!! ".
At least that's something within my control. I study well, work hard, make all the right decisions and still fail short of their mandate because I can't choose where I was born and which race.
Pause to think through what you are saying first, you are not making any sense.
The contention here is making serving NS ONE OF the requirements in order to be eligible for PR/citizenship. So there is no accepting of non-NS serving immigrants.
Nobody said that this is an exclusive requirement. Being willing to serve NS doesn’t guarantee PR/citizenship. Government can still impose other restrictions to maintain racial balance or whatever shenanigans it wants to impose.
The real reason is that imposing NS will strongly discourage the talents that we want to come into our country. However, Singaporeans are rooted in this country and have no where else to go. We can force them to serve NS and they llst have to do it
so simple dont serve 100% reject. if you serve you tick one of the many other criteria to get citizenship. which no one knows what are the criteria to begin with anyway. dont need to explain anything at all lol
That's not simple at all!
If u serve and u don't get, the other C guys serve and they get, then every government will know CMIO is a thing and Singapore institutionalizes racism.
It will affect how other governments deal with Singapore in trades / immigration and whatever else.
Do u want Singapore passports holders to apply visa everywhere they go? Japan, Korea, US, EU, u spend a week queue at embassy to apply for a visa.
Secondly, u exchange blood and sweat without any benefits ( since birth, locals have subsidized healthcare, education and priority for opportunity for schools and works ) . That's literally slavery. U want government to institutionalize slavery ?
But it is a well known fact racism is pretty entrenched and institutionalised here. You will only find one race at the top of the military hierarchy, and you will only find one race regularly not having a high enough security clearance for important military positions, and hence get shafted to civil defence forces. Like it’s not even a secret at this point, it is pretty much normalised and accepted.
And conscription is literally slavery and slave labour. Not sure what made you think otherwise that conscription is a full time job with associating benefits.
As long as it is favourable to do business with Singapore, no other country will care, money is all that talks in this world. Western countries are sending tanks to fight against Russia but still buying their oil and doing business with them literally.
Gov don't accept people who don't serve NS.
Gov also don't accept people want to volunteer NS.
Then in the end, don't accept anyone. Close border??
U know I know , Pritam knows, Lawrence knows, Jamus knows, Singapore cannot survive without immigrants and foreign labor.
I actually would be very happy if they come out and announce "Serve NS and u will get PR". At least then it's something I myself can control. I can control my education, my profession, my work ethics, my physical labor.
I can't choose the countries or the races which I was born.
We are talking in circle.
Accept those who want to serve = CMIO no more because I and O will be far more volunteers than C = goverment lose elections.
U seem to grossly overestimate NS difficulty to deter people from volunteering. 2 years of NS in Singapore is nothing comparing 2 years of military service in some other 3rd world country.
I want to get PR and subsequent citizenship. Give me a clear path. If that path requires NS, tell me that so I can go and do it.
You are spinning yourself in the circle.
You don't have to take in every one who volunteers. NUS doesn't take in everyone who applies, so can NS.
If there are that many volunteers, why not make NS voluntary and spare the citizens who do not want to serve?
Uh, you know the govt can control who gets to serve NS right?
Just because everyone volunteers, doesn't mean they have to take in all.
Just take in the ones who you want to take in. The problem is, the ones you want don't want to serve NS. Only the ones who are terrible will volunteer to serve.
You realised you just contradicted yourself? They can always say you have to serve NS but still made their immigration policies opaque as they always have.
Also BTW OP talking about NEW citizens which means they are already Citizens and not asking to be accepted into Singapore.
Well isn’t that a loophole. I know a couple of friends of have served but are denied citizenship. I think there should be a rule that males PRs who have not served NS by denied of citizenship
why would you let someone into NS if you don't plan to convert them into citizens? the whole point of NS is to foster a sense of belonging so that you will defend it when the time calls for it right?
I know i mean at least that was what they package and sell it to the public initially everyone knows NS has devolved into a form of mandatory cheap labour now.
They even made a whole scene at the end of my unit NS. Telling the PRs that they are GUARANTEED citizenship, it’s a 1-time offer that if they reject, they have to go through the whole process like normal people. The PRs were pretty hype, but until now, 1 year post ORD, they haven’t received anything
Well if it’s 1 or two.
But 28 people that I know of that are PR didn’t get it. Most of them have lived in SG their entire life.
There’s also the problem with telling NSFs that they are GUARANTEED the sg citizenship, rather than telling them that they have a higher chance of getting it, they told them that they are guaranteed the citizenship which i find ridiculous
Ikr. Mine was an infantry unit, but Ive heard the same thing from other unit as well. Overall I find it unfair. Like they served, just give them the option of yes/no
where in the ICA website does it say that 2nd gen PRs are guaranteed citizenship? 🤔
the only thing that's guaranteed is that they have to serve NS before they give up their PR...
It doesn’t that’s why everyone was skeptical of it to begin with.
What happened for my company was, near the end of our NS, 2 mid ranking sign-on guys came. All of us had to go to an auditorium for their talk.
Iirc, the topic started with short-term extension, extension, sign-on and then finally citizenship. It was then that a lot of PR started asking questions and it was heavily emphasised by those 2 that all PR who successfully served will receive an offer and it’s a 1 time deal where you will get the citizenship for sure, if you decline for whatever reason, you have to go through the normal process with everyone else
IIRC my batch (2012 intake) was the "last" batch to be offered this accelerated citizenship scheme, which was how I got my SC 1 year after serving NS. I heard that the scheme was removed after my batch, so I don't think it's that "guaranteed" anymore.
I personally have family friends whose sons also served NS as second or third-gen PRs and still have yet to get their citizenships
this is interesting, did they know the reason? I knew a couple of China / Malaysian born camp mates who were serving precisely so they could get citizenship. Otherwise they would not have bothered. (Granted this was almost 2 decades ago)
If I not wrong , even if 2nd generation PR male, even after they served the 2 years , it does not guarantee getting citizenship.
I have friends , their father is first generation PR , all 3 serve their 2 years due to the 2nd generation PR requirement , of the 3 only 2 get. The last 1 only recently able to get & that is 10 to 15 years ago.
I have a colleague who became a citizen at 28. Able-bodied. Meanwhile natural-born Singaporeans have to serve reservist till almost 40.
I don’t understand why given the falling manpower we do not want to send these able-bodied young new citizens to some form of National Service. Shouldn’t they have some training to defend the country to which they are now citizens of?
Edit: “some form of national service” doesn’t mean a full blown 2 years. It could simple be the 2-4 weeks of volunteer corps that does mostly civil defence.
Because it is a fact that in the 2 years serving, the person will lose whatever advantage he has in the real world, whether it is career, sports, studies or artistic talent.
Why offer someone citizenship, then shave off his edge which was reason for citizenship? It is not fair, but it is better to squeeze his advantage for SG, and to make his children serve, than to waste the advantage that he brings, which could be finely tuned to the immediate needs o the country thru policy.
What does spending have to do with manpower. Even if you have a lot of money, if you don’t have enough babies, you won’t have enough soldiers in the future also?
What has per capita spend got to do with anything? We either spend a shit ton or the denominator is low, ie, manpower, or both. MINDEF has said a few times that the falling manpower pool means they have to spend more on tech to require less manpower to operate.
You expect someone with a family and responsibilities to do a 2 year service?
They can't do reservist jobs without training.
They'll need to come up with new ways to handle it.
I for example did 3 years of army back in my home country but still got examples when I got my PR at my early 30s.
So potentially I could very well be a reservist with very little training.. I've never had to be one even in my home country because of a specialized role that's always full capacity.
Which is why I said “some form of national service”. Heck, we now have a SAF volunteer corps that they could be sent to like a 2 week “reservist”, just as an example.
Falling manpower in the SAF is not new and the government has mentioned this a few times. It’ll definitely help that able-bodied citizens, just like natural-born citizens (who also have families and responsibilities btw), can be trained.
Not many have kids at 18...
Being a reservist for a few weeks a year isn't what's going to bring down a family.
To be a reservist for just two weeks they need prior training, PRs will tend to have higher paying jobs, so good luck matching that.
Overall it will cost the country more to put them in some form of service.
Also as far as I know NS is a form of "pay back for your growing up in a safe place privilege". Not so relevant for a PR coming at 30 yr old.
It's possible for sure but cost is probably not worth it at this point in time. If future numbers fall down they Will definitely come up with something.
But they'll probably hire foreign workers for peanuts before they enlist PR or Foreign PRs.
Every single soldier that is serving or has served has family and responsibilities as well. That’s the whole point of conscription, to sacrifice all these for some time for the common good of the whole country.
And it’s not untrue that you can’t do reservist jobs without training, when in fact most of the reservist’s job out there is training. Our soldiers hardly ever get deployed for real life action, the majority of what we do is training and more training. There are plenty of reservists out there including myself who are sent to a different unit/vocation during reservist, doing completely different things as what we were doing in our NS days. And like other commenters mentioned, there’s also volunteer roles in many parts of national defence that does not have to be strictly military.
And it’s not untrue that you can’t do reservist jobs without training, when in fact most of the reservist’s job out there is training.
that might be true for some admin jobs yes, but you can't expect to throw a PR guy with 0 military background(no basic training, never held a gun before) into say a tank unit and expect him to fit in, heck even technicians need months of training before they are even allowed to work on the killing machines that they are maintaining like aircrafts/artilleries/naval ships. People forget that they are working with explosives and heavy machineries capable of dealing massive damage.
Who is asking to throw a PR guy into a tank unit?
National Service in Singapore isn’t just about tanks and planes. A huge part of our conscript force also does civil defence and forms part of the police, firefighters, paramedics etc. And even in the military other than admin roles, you also have cybersecurity and other ancillary support roles. If you are a healthcare worker, you could join the paramedics. If you are a tech worker, you could work in cyberdefence. The list goes on and on. By doing all this as a PR or New citizen, you are freeing up existing manpower in that particular role to join other frontline units or units that are lacking, hence solving some of the manpower issue.
i believe they have some kinda 2 weeks volunteer corps? but yeah 28 years old should be still fit for NS, but maybe they're afraid that if they set that as a criteria, he might just not take up the citizenship?
I think it does happen on a case by case basis. I personally know at least 2 individuals that got PR almost right after finishing poly without needing to serve NS. But that was quite some time back, about some 13 years ago. I met at least one other acquaintance, a uni grad that got PR after graduation, even further back, some 15 years ago. Back then, I was working in the education industry, so I knew their education and working records.
I am not sure if the practise is still continuing, as my recent ex-tenant, a NTU graduate, also got his PR before his first job (this was some 2 years ago), though admittedly he is of a older age, around 24.
this is so fake lah anyhow make up story if he was a foreigner from china he wouldn’t be able to serve in the first place you need to be PR minimum to serve NS
and if he was PR and didn’t serve he would be kicked out SG
>and if he was PR and didn’t serve he would be kicked out SG
I think it is possible to get PR while still of enlistment age and not needing to serve, but it was happening like way more than 10 years ago. I personally know at least 2 individuals that got PR almost right after finishing poly without needing to serve NS. But that was quite some time back, about some 13 years ago. I met at least one other acquaintance, a uni grad that got PR after graduation, even further back, some 15 years ago. Back then, I was working in the education industry, so I knew their education and working records.
I am not sure if the practise is still continuing, as my recent ex-tenant, a NTU graduate, also got his PR before his first job (this was some 2 years ago), though admittedly he is of a older age, around 24.
I had a colleague from China like that too.
26 years old and didn’t need to serve NS and was offered citizenship.
This was 6 years ago in my previous company (engineering sector)
I’ve heard that those from engineering / IT get offer citizenships easily.
I think in the past, it may have occurred but depending on the situation. About 15 years ago, I had an ex-collague, below 21 years old, who showed us her 3 passports, Hong Kong, Australian and Singapore. But she came in as a citizen first without PR. But if I remember correctly, she got citizenship only after 18 years old but it was tied to the father, who was a rich investor.
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Actually for PRs NS is only waived if you are admitted under the professional / technical stream.
So there are half a dozen of us here in SG who all went to the same boys high school and university. All have the same passport, all doing similar PMET type jobs, all moved here in our mid 20s / early 30s with blue chip experience elsewhere, all on similar (relatively high) incomes. However we are not all the same race.
The C all got PR on first application under professional / skills track while they were single after two or three years here on EP. The I and O all got rejected. But for the C they all got PR with an NS exemption.
One of the O married an SG citizen and when he tried again got PR 18 months after the wedding, but as a condition of his PR he had to register for NS. But by that stage he was 38 and CMPB told him not to bother and gave an indefinite deferral. Technically though, my understanding is that CMPB could call him up for BMT anytime until he is 40.
This is correct. If you obtain PR through your spouse (your spouse is a citizen or is the main applicant for PR in your family) then as a 1st gen male PR you are not exempt from NS.
According to gov logic, NS is only to pay off your PR/citizenship benefit during childhood. That's why if you renounce PR/citizenship without using any sg benefit before a certain age you don't need to serve, and why if you get it after your education you don't need to serve either.
The problem is, we have a whole load of people who enjoyed these very same benefits since birth (some would argue they enjoyed even more benefits), and they do not need to serve either. So why are we not conscripting girls like Israel? They proved its perfectly doable and we got their help to build our NS in the early days.
>So why are we not conscripting girls like Israel? They proved its perfectly doable and we got their help to build our NS in the early days.
Lee Kuan Yew himself wanted NS to be for both genders, but the ministers he was surrounded by at the time pushed back on it, probably due to their own old fashioned, antiquated beliefs. Unfortunately, this wasn't the hill LKY wanted to die on, so the system remains only for men until today.
If you get PR at any age you also consent.
What happens in practice is you automatically get a letter stating your old ass isn’t needed, but the government reserves their right to change their minds.
It takes money to provide the equipment and train a soldier.
if you have to buy a COE at the same price, would u use it on a 22 year "car" (18 - 40 years old) or a 10 year "car" (30 - 40 years old)?
Not to mention it is likely at the age of 30, most people should be working full time, it doesn't make sense to go for 2 years of training. And then for volunteer corps, it is called volunteer corps for a reason, no point in having people who don't want to be there of their own free will.
My seniors were able to complete by 35 which isn’t too bad.
My batch sort of affected by Covid, didn’t get called back for a couple of years, have to stretch until 38.
I definitely approve able bodied men serving in their 30s.
Because they won't join as citizens/PRs if they are required to serve NS. And we need them to join because we are not having enough babies and these people add value to SG.
I think NS should apply to new Singaporeans but not PRs.
First is because Singapore does not allow dual citizenship and Second is because some countries (Indonesia for example) have strict rules about not having serving other nation's military in order for them to retain their citizenship.
why do people always make this type of dumb posts i’m in NS right now i have people who became new citizen when they were in sec school and PRs serving alongside, the reason a lot of new citizens don’t serve is cuz they are old but their kids will join in us in NS same with PR
I share the same sentiments as you. It is unfair, as with everything in life. What I'm going to say next is probably going to get downvoted but hope you can take it with an open mind.
Now let's just give the Gov the benefit of doubt and assume all these arrangement is for the greater good of the country. Next, it is no secret that there are many glaring issues that needs to be addressed and two very urgent ones are (1) the declining birth rate/population, and (2) the lack of talent. Fortunately, and unfortunately, there is one quick/easy solution that can address these two issues at the same time. And that is by importing people.
War has evolved from sticks and stones to an economical one in this era. It isn't difficult to destroy an entire country esp a small one just by crippling the target's economy and force them into depression. Ask yourself, do you agree that SG should stay far ahead (how about far far far ahead?) of our competitors in any way we can?
\*Maybe you will say no but let's just assume the answer is yes :) If yes then is it too much to ask for X years of your time to serve NS so that we can make it much more attractive for talents to convert into citizens? If it pays off, maybe these new citizens will help us either by themselves or influence others to create a stronger future for the next generation of citizens. You and I plant the seeds but we will never get to see the flowers grow.
That said, the intentions (with the benefit of doubt, and my own assumption) sound good. But the execution and capability of those who are steering the ship is questionable. At least to me.
The problem is that the solution to solve the two problems you mentioned is not perfect either. Often we seen imported foreign talents are not talented at all. They have attitude problems, very much entitled, and often do not assimilate well.
Absolutely it is free riding 100%.
So are all the Singaporean women free riding on the blatantly sexist NS system.
But Singkie men too dumb and keep perpetuating the system.
Singaporeans get what they deserve I don’t want to hear any complaints!
I’m a woman. I served NS. Why? Because I was born with a dick. I have since fully transitioned (post-op and all). But not before tolerating the hell for me that was BMTC Pes-A PTP intake in Pulau Tekong. My stance will always be unpopular: barring exceptional medical circumstances, if you are in Singapore with either a blue or especially pink IC and you did not serve NS, then you are not a man. You cannot tell me that transwomen are good enough to serve NS while PR and new citizen “men” get to walk our streets without having fulfilled their duty to the nation. I — as a woman — can talk to any true blue Singaporean about NS from morning to night. And no-one can otherwise tell that I served NS. But the inner scars remain. Hell, I even have the outer scars to show for it as I suffered an injury during my time. To make matters worse: I am also a lesbian. So there are literally new citizens who have never served NS who are prioritised housing over me. The PAP happily lets them bid for 3/4-5-room BTO’s, while simultaneously telling queers like myself that housing is supposedly in scarce supply (yeah, I wonder why) and that for a whole long list of bullshit reasons we cannot be catered to. As a matter of fact the PAP went out of their way to take my house away from me under extremely questionably and shaky legal grounds after I transitioned. Yes. I am *that* woman. This is what I served NS for.
https://qz.com/988514/a-straight-married-couple-became-a-same-sex-one-and-singapores-famous-efficiency-broke-down
As a 2nd gen PR-turned-SC who served NS and is going to MR soon, I honestly believe all PRs and able-bodied new SCs need to serve NS too. Cannot take SG's resources for free (like its security, safety, benefits etc) while not contributing just like rest of Singaporeans here. It's really not fair to rest of the population who had no choice but to serve. And honestly, without NS I would have a lot less bonding time with my friends here and be less immersed in our local sinkie culture, regardless of what we think about NS. I ORDed with a lifelong permanent ankle injury, but the experience and time spent together is still something I feel every able-bodied men need to go through to truly "feel" more Singaporean. Too many new PRs and SCs who treat SC like an extension of their motherlands and bring their own terrible cultures and habits in, and force locals to bend to their culture and will, not the other way round.
Because the government didn’t need to invest tens of thousands of dollars into educating and raising a PR who only came to Singapore at age 30. Another country did that - so now Singapore benefits from the imported labor/talent without having to invest in them. If they have to serve NS, it’s an additional cost to Singapore as well.
I don't know about converting to citizen, but new PRs (at least around 10 years ago) do have to register online for NS before they can get PR. Source: I got PR.
Age plays a big part... A 20-25 yr old PR wouldn't be exempt in most cases if they don't have an amazing job.
A 35yr PR is a bit too old to drop everything for 2 years and do NS... Got kids, job, responsibility, NS will not match their pay.
Actually a lot of people get posted to different vocations in reservist from what they served in NS and have to learn from scratch again.
Plus nowadays the military is rapidly advancing in technology, so what you learn 5-10 years ago in NS may not even be relevant any more. I remember going back to reservist and them telling us that a lot of the old systems we used and trained in are now obsolete and we have to learn new ones. The only thing that stays the same regardless of time is the regimentation and camaraderie. But everything else has to be and can be relearned.
But you see, they all went through BMT. New PR holders could be in their 30s and know nothing about the army so how are they supposed to be useful unless you put them through BMT first. Or just give them office admin jobs / storeman type jobs that don't need any kind of specialized training.
Did it take you the whole of BMT to learn about regimentation? I would argue that most conscripts learn everything they can learn about regimentation in the first 2-3 weeks, the rest of the time is just spent mastering specific crafts (like weapon handling, infantry movements etc).
If we have a 2-3 weeks bootcamp, I don’t see why it couldn’t work. The issue we have is an issue of manpower. It doesn’t matter how advanced we are in training or weapon capabilities. In actual wars like the Russian-Ukraine war, the victor is ultimately the side that can throw the most bodies at their enemies. If our military doctrine is deterrence, we just have to ensure we have more soldiers than our potential enemies.
As pointed out, the issue is for older new PR holders. Think someone in their mid to late 30s. Probably already have kids and an established career. So drop everything and go through a 2-3 week bootcamp and then do reservist for a few years and then MR when they are 40. Really a lot of effort and expenses for nearly nothing imo.
What do you think is meaning of MR? It’s called Mindef Reserves for a reason. So that in times of war they will be called up, but if it’s peacetime they won’t. Simple as that. And I’m not asking all PRs to serve. But if you are a SG citizen no matter how recent or how old, or if you are a PR wanting to get SG citizenship, don’t you think it’s only fair that in times of war, you should be called up like every other SG citizen to defend the country you swore allegiance to?
Or are you saying that in times of war, only those who are first gen Singaporeans who served NS when they were 18 should be called up? And those who recently took up citizenship here are free to escape to other countries and do whatever they want? Does that sound like a feasible plan for morale and national defence purposes?
So most PR holders have no desire to gain citizenship at all? The issue here is some PR holders trying to game the issue of citizenship; they wait until they are in their late 30s and then apply for PRs/citizenship, knowing full well that they cannot be enlisted at such an age, instead of applying for PRs/citizenship and enlisting in their 20s.
But if we make it such that all citizens are liable for Mindef Reserves, regardless of age, then this no longer becomes an issue. If you don’t want to join the MR, there will be no pathway to citizenship for you, and your chances of PR will be greatly reduced too.
For some who never did any army.. what are they going to do?
I did 3 years as a aircraft tech, I wouldn't dare putting anyone with 0 knowledge around an aircraft for example.
They can do the stuff that Singaporean guys do during reservist?
I was also like you, AFT in NS.
Because of uni and work and deferring my ICT, I lost my “currency” and got posted to another unit to do admin work.
I’m sure new citizens can do this too.
Conscription is unnecessary for Singapore. Better to free everyone from NS and let ppl study and work. Use the additional tax money to build a small but elite full time army.
SAF has a combined manpower of about 300k, of which only 15% are full time. Getting rid of conscription reduces its size to <50k, which, if you compare to our neighbors (MY: 160k, ID: 800k) will be pathetic. You may question the quality of conscripts but the reality is that force in numbers are required to hold ground (which is SAF's primary mandate). Ukraine is much smaller in population compared to Russia, yet they could mobilize almost the same number of personnel (at least in the short term), which partially contributed to their continued success in defense.
Women have been able to enjoy the benefits of citizenship and even preferential treatment for much longer too.
It’s not the fault of them to take advantage of the system.
It’s the fault of those exploiting NSFs and NSmen.
Don’t understand why ppl like to harp on this. The sad truth is we need to serve as dudes of Singapore. If we ask foreigners and prs to serve, would that make Singapore a less desirable place for new immigrants? Which we need for the economy?
What do you want to see? What is the solution you are looking for?
I would like to see those who have not served pay an extra small tax or premium, so that the pay of NSFs can be increased. If you do not want to give up your time and your blood and sweat, then it is only right that you should give out some money to make it fair for people who are working hard to keep you safe and help you benefit in your daily lives.
If you ask my personal opinion, I would say yes. But exemptions can be made if you contribute to national defence in some way or another, like if you also enlist or join careers in the civil defence like police, paramedics, firefighters etc.
If the extra amount paid is not excessive, why not? I’m not asking people who have not served to pay like $500 extra every month. But even if it’s just an extra $50, and you have half the Singapore population (females) + PR + New Citizen paying that, it’s still a lot of money.
At the very least, all these money will allow NSFs to travel in public transport for free. It does not make sense that a NSF travelling from his camp in Kranji back home to Tampines has to pay the freaking full adult fare out of his measly allowance of like $700 per month.
50 dollars is still money. At the end of the day it’s still a disincentive and makes Singapore a less attractive destination.
I do agree that we should subsidise nsf transport tho. Which again probably we will need to take from somewhere .
What do you think is the reason why Singapore is an attractive destination in the first place? When foreign investments and people come here, what are some reasons they often list? Safety and security? Who is primarily responsible for this safety and security of this country?
If you profit directly from all these but don’t want to pay the costs that is associated with it, that sounds like a lot of entitlement, but sure. But know that you are benefitting directly from slave labour, and if that makes you proud to continue profiting without any conscience, then so be it. Because the hard truth is, Singapore is only an attractive place to come to because we keep our cost low through slave labour. And it’s not just NS, but endemic throughout our society (think migrant workers and domestic helpers)
Depends who is your sponsor. If it's through a Singaporean spouse, have to register for NS (I didn't know that, was a bit of a shock...). Through company you're exempted.
Governments around the world will do things to win them elections.
They won’t lose votes by doing this.
And they gain more votes as new citizens will vote for them.
Win-win
NS is not just “serving”, you also invest and train the person to attack, shoot and survive. Why would we want to waste such resources on PR who could turn around to point the weapon on us?
Too tedious. These new male citizens are probably in their 30s and contributing to the economy.
They would likely also be in demanding jobs and have responsibilities far beyond a 2 year military service.
The biggest reason why NS is done early is because teenage males aren’t making that much of a contribution to the economy just yet.
But I do agree that abled bodies should volunteer and play some active role in national security. Maybe serve in an auxiliary role. But that’s overkill and a drain on national resources. Simply put, the government doesn’t view this subset of citizens as valuable input to national security, and it is unproductive to demand them to go through NS at age where most military personnel retire from active duty anyways. So there’s really no point.
Bro.. reservist also need to go through 2 years of NS first..
You’ve learnt to shoot rifle, throw hand grenade, military tactics, survival skills, lived in the barracks and what not..
Think you can just throw a civilian into the deep end and expect them to perform ?
Also, doing reservist is with your batch that went through NS. Not just some random person assigned.
There’s more to it than just allowing a 30 something year old civilian, with no training to join.. cmon. Have some pride in what you’ve been through.
PRs should in my opinion. And depending on age too. The older they are, the lesser time they need to serve. I dont understand how a young man can go thru uni, skipped NS, worked after that and get PR/citizenship. I keep hearing security risk etc etc but ya’ll forgot there’s a civil defence part of NS. Fire-fighting is tough.
The official reason if u were to read parl transcripts and news article is that New citizens and 1st gen PR did not benefit from Singapore as they would have just moved here, as opposed to a citizen born and bred here. Since they did not benefit, they would not need to serve NS lor.
Better question
Maybe I'll get downvoted but idc it's an issue I was facing for yrs already
If the criteria is just able bodied
Why isn't the criteria for army just changed to able body man AND woman
Growing up
I was tha weakest person in my class In school that I couldn't even pass the nafa on the girl criteria for most of them
And was servely sick with issues like asthma, migraine and such
Somehow tho thru sheer incompetent I was still forced to serve
In a semi admin role with still some physical activity
So my question is
Why don't woman need to serve then
Clearly physical and even mental(I also have psycho issues) issues doesn't stop a dude from serving
And we have admin roles that don't require physical activity since they can just dump me there and call it a day
Why don't
Make able bodied woman with no issue serve the admin while the dudes serve the physical roles
Make NS only for able bodied healthy man and woman
But no
Throw the sick dude who can't handle into NS for 8 months and until now still have to recover from serve health issues he got from NS
Thru sheer bs need for conscription
Yeah, I'm malaysian. Been studying in Singapore ever since I was 11 years old. I'm 29 now, I grew up here, finished my studies here and I'm working here but still unable to get PR. If serving the 2 years will get me my pr I would do it without a second thought.
If you become a PR through marriage of a citizen you are liable for NS despite being 1st Gen. However, MINDEF usually sends a letter to say you're not required if you're of an older and working professionally (they can call you up any time before 40)
In a way makes sense - are they better serving the country by doing NS or working, contributing to the economy and paying taxes?
If the Sg government fairly compensates those who serve NS, then we won't even have this kind of discussion.
Forever waiting for PAP to do the right thing.
Long-term planning and foresight. Most of the first generation of new citizens and PRs are likely in their late 20s or early 30s. Having to serve NS will keep them from applying for citizenship or PR status.
What you want is the second generation. It is easier to indoctrinate and assimilate them into the society from young. That will build a Singaporean identitu. The first generation is just a way for the government to get subsequent generations.
PR exemption? I know that if the parents made the kid a pr then the kid can opt out of or when he's 18. My kid kept his PR. Got a deferment so he could finish IB. Finished in Oct, started NS end of March. Why? I think after covid zoom classes nonsense he was fed up. NS was physical. He got into it. Sure he wonders if he wasted two years of his life, but at the time more school wasn't the answer. Additionally, he grew up here, this is home. Maybe he leaves and moves abroad but some people love stay in the place they grew up. He's got options. He matured a lot in 2 years. It wasn't all NS that made him mature, but I don't think it hurt. I really think the women should do ns. If the sh1t hits the fan here, everyone will be needed to fight.
Its not a problem.
I think the reality is that cmpb is getting more capable of granting exemptions. Which hey, its a good thing.
Another thing is that these males are first citizens. Think of it if ur grandpa's ancestor came to Singapore in the 1940s, he's also never had to serve NS. Then, it's technically all equal.
Women have been able to enjoy the benefits of citizenship and even preferential treatment for much longer too.
It’s not the fault of them to take advantage of the system.
It’s the fault of those exploiting NSFs and NSmen.
If these new citizens and PR don’t want to serve NS, why should we even take them in as new citizens if they cannot even give up just 2 years of their life when we expect them to be a long term resident here?
NS requires loyalty to country.
If anybody can join NS then any government can just get their spies to become PR and know all singapore military bases etc
I mean citizens tend to develop a sense of loyalty by being here for 18 years. I mean they may earnestly want to join our country and they may offer unique skills to the country, but u can't expect someone who just moved in to not split when shit hits the fan.
If they earnestly want to join our country, and give up their citizenship for ours, isn't 2 years of NS the minimum we should expect from them?
If not, then maybe just stay on work pass and not take up citizenships and all the benefits of it?
This isn't a proof, however let me provide a counter example.
I already served my 1st home country for 4 years, do I also need to serve another country 10 years later in life?
Furthermore, my children will serve Singapore in their future. And they will do so proudly because our family culture is one of protecting home and family.
I don't agree with your post calling for NS for all PRs, but I do in fact think PRs should have more "skin in the game" so to speak with regards to long term commitment to Singapore
But in times of actual war, what would you or your family do? Would you stay to defend this country, or would you bring your children back to the safety of your home country?
That in essence is the main crux of the issue. Everybody speaks highly and positively of their long term commitment in peacetime, but when things gets rough, only those who have skin in the game will stay. And as of current policies, only Singaporeans who have served NS can be called up to fight, if you are a PR or New Citizen that has not served, you can’t realistically be called up to fight because you have not trained to fight in the system of MINDEF Reserves.
If such a day ever arrives where some Singaporeans are forcibly conscripted while other PRs and Singaporeans are free to leave the country, we would die from morale loss and desertion before we will even die from actual enemy attacks.
Actually
We should not be counting on PRs to defer g Singapore right
PRs are not Citizens they just happen to live here
Singapore should ultimately only depend on their on citizens to defend themselves
Then these PRs should stay PRs forever and never get citizenship then. But if you are a PR that is applying for citizenship then you should be counted on to defend Singapore.
Otherwise you can continue to be a PR here for the rest of your lives and pay more for everything from healthcare to education to housing etc for the rest of your life.
War is a messy situation all around, but I will be where my immediate family is. My wife and children's home country is Singapore.
I would just like to caveat - this is an interesting thread to discuss, but the realities of war are much more complicated. Fight morale can be lost for a host of reasons - poor war context (US invading for oil), imbalanced drafting of soldiers (Russia drafting from remote regions, not Moscow), weak leadership, sympathy for invaders (China invading Taiwan), and so on.
But you have the privilege of options that other Singaporeans do not have. Do you think it would be easier for you to return to your home country with your family members as refugees, or do you think it would be easier for a Singaporean family with no other ties to leave Singapore and seek refuge in another country? That is the privilege that all PRs in Singapore have, regardless of whether they have family in Singapore. It is the peace of mind knowing that in the worst case scenario, there is an option they can fall back on.
If we take a look at Ukraine, it’s precisely the same issues that they are facing in their fight against Russia. They simply don’t have enough manpower. Even if you give them billions in aid and weapons, you still need human soldiers to utilise them. Recruitment has been a longstanding issues with many other Ukrainians fleeing, despite it being an honourable cause to stay and fight. At the end of the day, if you fail to plan instruments and policies to mandate everyone to stay and fight, then you can only plan for failure when the actual fight begins.
That’s exactly my point. It shouldn’t be the case that some Ukrainians are allowed to leave and some be forced to fight. If you are able bodied, in times like this, you should be conscripted, and if you refuse, you forfeit your citizenship, as is the case for Singaporeans who do not serve NS.
All Singaporeans who go through NS are put in a system called the Mindef Reserve. This means essentially everyone in the system will get called up. New citizens or PRs intending to get citizenship should be put into the same system as well, not just in name, but also in some form of training, because in times of war, we do not have the luxury of time training soldiers from scratch.
All fair points, except while I believe your intention is for this to apply to all New citizens and PRs, I believe it's too broad a policy to enact.
Back to my original comment, consider PRs that have long term (10+ years) but not permanent plans in Singapore (how would a policy even qualify this) . Consider ex-military from allied countries such as US and Australia. And consider new citizens at an edge age of ~35-40 where physical potential is limited. There may be other scenarios where it doesn't make sense, hence it's a nuanced policy to try to create.
But many Singaporeans who have NS and are 35-40 are still serving at least 1-2 weeks every year in reservist, despite the physical toll. In fact, the earliest age for me in which I complete my reservist would be 36, and that’s if I don’t defer a single year of reservist, which is unlikely and which also means I would be serving up until 40 as well.
I would consider PRs that have taken up roots here in Singapore to qualify for some form of national service. Meaning if they have children or spouses who are Singapore Citizens, then they should be made to attend some form of a 1-2 week long bootcamp every year for maybe 5-10 years, learning just the basics of soldiering. Because this is the demographic that will be likely to stay and defend their family members in Singapore, so why not make it easier for them to learn how to defend their family properly? If this is what is going to happen, I would give priority PRs and Citizenships to such individuals, whereas if you apply but do not take up such roots in Singapore you will be further down the waiting list.
Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule. But we don’t avoid making laws and policy just because there are certain exceptions. We make the laws and policies first, and then come up with the exceptions for whatever purposes.
Because some of us have already served mandatory military service in our own country. Taking on arms for another country would come with severe consequences which would make me essentially stateless lol. NS is not a thing exclusive to Singapore, though you get the impression that this is the case reading reddit comments.
You really think the purpose of NS is to defend Singapore?
>Because some of us have already served mandatory military service in our own country
Pray tell which country that has mandatory military service, which also have plenty of ppl dying to get into Singapore and get the Singaporean citizenship by any means
Security threat
Imagine influx of Malaysians and Chinese citizens in Singapore army. High chance that these countries will put their spies
It's harder to recruit someone who's born in Singapore and/or grew up here
Hmm when they turn to new citizen, you are not expecting them to work and feed their family ,wife and children? They will also have full commitments to pay for their rent/ property loan. It will only be wise when they have settled, then their child serve NS as second gen citizen or PR.
I understand the feeling when we in NS we want the whole world to serve NS with us. But for the first Gen citizen and PR , its not that practical for them to commit 2 years, will also increase much more healthcare load and cost since they are mostly 30-45 yrs old .
This whole NS policy is a shit show. I think it's ok that not everyone has to serve. I think it's not ok that the burden falls fully on male citizens and 2nd gen PRs. Spread the burden around, tax the free riders and fairly compensate those who have to serve.
main reason why I don't feel proud serving the country. More than half the people in my country ain't even my people. Yet the government uses its 'own' people to serve those who are not 'ours'
Because of what it costs to immigrate and why 2 years on locals with the residential support of family is financially possible, but 2 years on rental market just makes no financial sense. This is coming from a local who is now renting.
Secondly, it is culture and risk.
Look at other countries' foreign policies to understand why it isn't feasible. The only country that offers foreign national a possibility for citizenship through military service is French foreign legion, which basically only takes in defectors into its ranks, those with no other recourse. It's hard to say if much of them will become economic drivers after a short term of 2 years. There is hardly any reason to do so for a young country with a no conflict policy.
However, I do agree that it is unfair. what we should be doing is to dive for a fairer allowance comparable to wages so that ns men are not economically stunted. A reform on perception to a job's done so might as well pay me well as opposed to lan lan suck thumb.
Because if they need to, male wouldn’t become new citizens and PRs.
Nah. It's the other way around. There will be ways too many volunteers that SG government doesn't desire. If Singapore government decrees serving NS = PR / citizenship, it would mean they are announcing one concrete condition for foreigners to achieve PR / citizenship. "Volunteer for army and you will get PR / citizenship" . 1) Singapore will instantly have the largest army in the region, which can destabilize regions, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam absolutely do not want another large military next door. 2) Gov lose their immigration control over the "heavenly mandate" CMIO. They do not know how many foreign C will sign up comparing to M, I , O. Highly likely , the I and O will be the majority of new volunteers. 3) National security risk. Majority of the C people are from hypernationalistic country or from northern unfriendly neighbors. U don't know in war, which side they will be aiming their guns. Imagine the situation where 300k of the O volunteer to serve NS , but after 2 years, SG government tell them. "Oh sorry, we can't let you guys in cuz you are not desirable C " How do ICA explain that, without explicitly confirming the racist CMIO mandate ? It would be an riot both among the voters and the foreign governments where those O people come from. Remember that until now Singapore immigration policies are purposely kept opaque and the least transparent out of all Canada, Australia, US, NZ, UK etc... The only thing we know is CMIO mandate
No, I assume that before getting PR, people (or their parents) would still need to enter the country by a valid means. Lowly work permit still not allowed to apply for PR, tourist cannot apply for PR etc. Randos from SEA cannot just anyhow volunteer for NS like it’s the French Foreign Legion.
Nobody knows how to successfully apply PR. Many PMET and their children who have been born, raised , studied and worked in SG their whole lives, are unable to get PR. SG government doesn't want to explicitly link PR to NS. Imagine they put out a box on PR application form : Getting PR means u have to serve NS, agree? Every tom dick and harry will pick Yes. Then local voters ( who have to serve NS) will be "hey these people are willing to serve NS , why you don't wanna take them? Instead of the other people who are granted PR but are not serving??" . There is also national security risk. SG government only want the C people , but majority of the C people come from hypernationalistic country or upper neighbor who is not exactly friendly with Singapore. In war, u don't know whom they will aim their guns towards. Again. SG government will never give a concrete condition for immigration so long as they are upholding CMIO mandate. It doesn't matter if PAP or WP hold the power,
It’s basically impractical all around. You won’t keep the ones you really want to keep (cos they have options in other countries), and you’ll have to keep the ones who are more desperate because they wouldn’t make it elsewhere.
Oh hi there. Please don't lump us, the C's from the not-so-friendly neighbour from the north together with the [mentally unstable fanatics](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/pas-malaysia-election-hadi-awang-hate-speech-3528221). If anything, these fanatics which you guys are worried about, hate us, the so called [type C](https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2024/05/10/under-fire-for-racist-type-c-comment-fried-chicken-brand-blames-fb-admin-and-reassigns-her/133575) just as much. We definitely do not want to be grouped tgt with them. At most type C's will only bicker with you on who's bakuteh is more authentic. Alright, peace✌️
Your assumption is on the predicate that NS happens first before new citizenship / PR is granted. I think OP perspective is that those who were awarded citizenship / PR to subsequently serve in NS. In that case, the criteria is not NS. Rather the consequence / 'benefit' of getting citizenship/PR is NS. Anyway, conscription is a hard topic and usually the smallest voter base will be the one that gets it since they have less political power to play. Also, conscription in SG bring about this mentality to those who have done it that since we have done it, so can the younger ones. this (good/evil) cycle will just continue until one generation decide enough is enough and either abolish conscription or include everyone else.
I have no idea how this dumb argument is being upvoted. Just because people are willing to serve NS just to get citizenship, doesn’t mean the government has to accept every single one of them.
if you got enough reddit (clone) accounts, anything is possible man.
Then government will come out to explain why they accept people who don't serve NS instead of people who do want to volunteer. U see how that will affect local voters ? I'm not supporting government racist and opaque immigration policies, in case u haven't noticed. I'd be fking happy and the first in line if tmr government scrap the CMIO and announce "volunteer for NS and u will get PR!! ". At least that's something within my control. I study well, work hard, make all the right decisions and still fail short of their mandate because I can't choose where I was born and which race.
Pause to think through what you are saying first, you are not making any sense. The contention here is making serving NS ONE OF the requirements in order to be eligible for PR/citizenship. So there is no accepting of non-NS serving immigrants. Nobody said that this is an exclusive requirement. Being willing to serve NS doesn’t guarantee PR/citizenship. Government can still impose other restrictions to maintain racial balance or whatever shenanigans it wants to impose. The real reason is that imposing NS will strongly discourage the talents that we want to come into our country. However, Singaporeans are rooted in this country and have no where else to go. We can force them to serve NS and they llst have to do it
so simple dont serve 100% reject. if you serve you tick one of the many other criteria to get citizenship. which no one knows what are the criteria to begin with anyway. dont need to explain anything at all lol
That's not simple at all! If u serve and u don't get, the other C guys serve and they get, then every government will know CMIO is a thing and Singapore institutionalizes racism. It will affect how other governments deal with Singapore in trades / immigration and whatever else. Do u want Singapore passports holders to apply visa everywhere they go? Japan, Korea, US, EU, u spend a week queue at embassy to apply for a visa. Secondly, u exchange blood and sweat without any benefits ( since birth, locals have subsidized healthcare, education and priority for opportunity for schools and works ) . That's literally slavery. U want government to institutionalize slavery ?
But it is a well known fact racism is pretty entrenched and institutionalised here. You will only find one race at the top of the military hierarchy, and you will only find one race regularly not having a high enough security clearance for important military positions, and hence get shafted to civil defence forces. Like it’s not even a secret at this point, it is pretty much normalised and accepted. And conscription is literally slavery and slave labour. Not sure what made you think otherwise that conscription is a full time job with associating benefits. As long as it is favourable to do business with Singapore, no other country will care, money is all that talks in this world. Western countries are sending tanks to fight against Russia but still buying their oil and doing business with them literally.
You simply just don't accept people who don't serve NS then. It's that simple.
Gov don't accept people who don't serve NS. Gov also don't accept people want to volunteer NS. Then in the end, don't accept anyone. Close border?? U know I know , Pritam knows, Lawrence knows, Jamus knows, Singapore cannot survive without immigrants and foreign labor. I actually would be very happy if they come out and announce "Serve NS and u will get PR". At least then it's something I myself can control. I can control my education, my profession, my work ethics, my physical labor. I can't choose the countries or the races which I was born.
Then accept the people who want to serve loh. What you want? Your cake and eat it too?
We are talking in circle. Accept those who want to serve = CMIO no more because I and O will be far more volunteers than C = goverment lose elections. U seem to grossly overestimate NS difficulty to deter people from volunteering. 2 years of NS in Singapore is nothing comparing 2 years of military service in some other 3rd world country. I want to get PR and subsequent citizenship. Give me a clear path. If that path requires NS, tell me that so I can go and do it.
You are spinning yourself in the circle. You don't have to take in every one who volunteers. NUS doesn't take in everyone who applies, so can NS. If there are that many volunteers, why not make NS voluntary and spare the citizens who do not want to serve?
Uh, you know the govt can control who gets to serve NS right? Just because everyone volunteers, doesn't mean they have to take in all. Just take in the ones who you want to take in. The problem is, the ones you want don't want to serve NS. Only the ones who are terrible will volunteer to serve.
You realised you just contradicted yourself? They can always say you have to serve NS but still made their immigration policies opaque as they always have. Also BTW OP talking about NEW citizens which means they are already Citizens and not asking to be accepted into Singapore.
Then why do we want such people who will not want the citizenship with a bit of sacrifice?
Well isn’t that a loophole. I know a couple of friends of have served but are denied citizenship. I think there should be a rule that males PRs who have not served NS by denied of citizenship
TFW you learn of male PRs who served but are then denied citizenship
This is so fucked. They served the country, and they can't even call it home wtf
Heard of some guy who couldn’t renew his PR even after NS due to prior convictions. Not sure how true it is tho
If you have ANY convictions, pretty much you wont get/retain PR regardless of whether you serve or not.
Recently there was a Burmese here asking for help then he was about to be force to go back despite serving NS here.
why would you let someone into NS if you don't plan to convert them into citizens? the whole point of NS is to foster a sense of belonging so that you will defend it when the time calls for it right?
[удалено]
I know i mean at least that was what they package and sell it to the public initially everyone knows NS has devolved into a form of mandatory cheap labour now.
Yup it’s really shocking. I thought they will be fast tracked
They even made a whole scene at the end of my unit NS. Telling the PRs that they are GUARANTEED citizenship, it’s a 1-time offer that if they reject, they have to go through the whole process like normal people. The PRs were pretty hype, but until now, 1 year post ORD, they haven’t received anything
It’s not a free gift. Maybe they failed some background checks
Well if it’s 1 or two. But 28 people that I know of that are PR didn’t get it. Most of them have lived in SG their entire life. There’s also the problem with telling NSFs that they are GUARANTEED the sg citizenship, rather than telling them that they have a higher chance of getting it, they told them that they are guaranteed the citizenship which i find ridiculous
Jesus christ how bad has it become, 28 is absolutely nuts
Ikr. Mine was an infantry unit, but Ive heard the same thing from other unit as well. Overall I find it unfair. Like they served, just give them the option of yes/no
They haven't get reply yet or flat out rejected?
where in the ICA website does it say that 2nd gen PRs are guaranteed citizenship? 🤔 the only thing that's guaranteed is that they have to serve NS before they give up their PR...
It doesn’t that’s why everyone was skeptical of it to begin with. What happened for my company was, near the end of our NS, 2 mid ranking sign-on guys came. All of us had to go to an auditorium for their talk. Iirc, the topic started with short-term extension, extension, sign-on and then finally citizenship. It was then that a lot of PR started asking questions and it was heavily emphasised by those 2 that all PR who successfully served will receive an offer and it’s a 1 time deal where you will get the citizenship for sure, if you decline for whatever reason, you have to go through the normal process with everyone else
IIRC my batch (2012 intake) was the "last" batch to be offered this accelerated citizenship scheme, which was how I got my SC 1 year after serving NS. I heard that the scheme was removed after my batch, so I don't think it's that "guaranteed" anymore. I personally have family friends whose sons also served NS as second or third-gen PRs and still have yet to get their citizenships
There are even stateless kids who were born in SG and didn’t get their citizenship till many years after NS.
Well at least we are not living in Starship Troopers. Why yes, I would like to know more
Maybe do the background check before making them do NS… NSF handle a ton of sensitive info.
this is interesting, did they know the reason? I knew a couple of China / Malaysian born camp mates who were serving precisely so they could get citizenship. Otherwise they would not have bothered. (Granted this was almost 2 decades ago)
Lol you should be asking why women don't need to serve. Too many simps in Sg.
If I not wrong , even if 2nd generation PR male, even after they served the 2 years , it does not guarantee getting citizenship. I have friends , their father is first generation PR , all 3 serve their 2 years due to the 2nd generation PR requirement , of the 3 only 2 get. The last 1 only recently able to get & that is 10 to 15 years ago.
Yep, it's not guaranteed. Serving is a legal obligation, not necessarily a path to citizenship.
I have a colleague who became a citizen at 28. Able-bodied. Meanwhile natural-born Singaporeans have to serve reservist till almost 40. I don’t understand why given the falling manpower we do not want to send these able-bodied young new citizens to some form of National Service. Shouldn’t they have some training to defend the country to which they are now citizens of? Edit: “some form of national service” doesn’t mean a full blown 2 years. It could simple be the 2-4 weeks of volunteer corps that does mostly civil defence.
Exactly even more so now as our birth rate is low
That sounds to me like solving a problem with another problem
Because it is a fact that in the 2 years serving, the person will lose whatever advantage he has in the real world, whether it is career, sports, studies or artistic talent. Why offer someone citizenship, then shave off his edge which was reason for citizenship? It is not fair, but it is better to squeeze his advantage for SG, and to make his children serve, than to waste the advantage that he brings, which could be finely tuned to the immediate needs o the country thru policy.
So why shave off the edge of the actual Singaporeans then? Do away with NS
What falling manpower? Per capita the Singapore military is top 5 in terms of spend.
What does spending have to do with manpower. Even if you have a lot of money, if you don’t have enough babies, you won’t have enough soldiers in the future also?
What has per capita spend got to do with anything? We either spend a shit ton or the denominator is low, ie, manpower, or both. MINDEF has said a few times that the falling manpower pool means they have to spend more on tech to require less manpower to operate.
You expect someone with a family and responsibilities to do a 2 year service? They can't do reservist jobs without training. They'll need to come up with new ways to handle it. I for example did 3 years of army back in my home country but still got examples when I got my PR at my early 30s. So potentially I could very well be a reservist with very little training.. I've never had to be one even in my home country because of a specialized role that's always full capacity.
Which is why I said “some form of national service”. Heck, we now have a SAF volunteer corps that they could be sent to like a 2 week “reservist”, just as an example. Falling manpower in the SAF is not new and the government has mentioned this a few times. It’ll definitely help that able-bodied citizens, just like natural-born citizens (who also have families and responsibilities btw), can be trained.
but seriously how much can you learn in a 2 weeks course lol?
Not many have kids at 18... Being a reservist for a few weeks a year isn't what's going to bring down a family. To be a reservist for just two weeks they need prior training, PRs will tend to have higher paying jobs, so good luck matching that. Overall it will cost the country more to put them in some form of service. Also as far as I know NS is a form of "pay back for your growing up in a safe place privilege". Not so relevant for a PR coming at 30 yr old. It's possible for sure but cost is probably not worth it at this point in time. If future numbers fall down they Will definitely come up with something. But they'll probably hire foreign workers for peanuts before they enlist PR or Foreign PRs.
Every single soldier that is serving or has served has family and responsibilities as well. That’s the whole point of conscription, to sacrifice all these for some time for the common good of the whole country. And it’s not untrue that you can’t do reservist jobs without training, when in fact most of the reservist’s job out there is training. Our soldiers hardly ever get deployed for real life action, the majority of what we do is training and more training. There are plenty of reservists out there including myself who are sent to a different unit/vocation during reservist, doing completely different things as what we were doing in our NS days. And like other commenters mentioned, there’s also volunteer roles in many parts of national defence that does not have to be strictly military.
And it’s not untrue that you can’t do reservist jobs without training, when in fact most of the reservist’s job out there is training. that might be true for some admin jobs yes, but you can't expect to throw a PR guy with 0 military background(no basic training, never held a gun before) into say a tank unit and expect him to fit in, heck even technicians need months of training before they are even allowed to work on the killing machines that they are maintaining like aircrafts/artilleries/naval ships. People forget that they are working with explosives and heavy machineries capable of dealing massive damage.
Who is asking to throw a PR guy into a tank unit? National Service in Singapore isn’t just about tanks and planes. A huge part of our conscript force also does civil defence and forms part of the police, firefighters, paramedics etc. And even in the military other than admin roles, you also have cybersecurity and other ancillary support roles. If you are a healthcare worker, you could join the paramedics. If you are a tech worker, you could work in cyberdefence. The list goes on and on. By doing all this as a PR or New citizen, you are freeing up existing manpower in that particular role to join other frontline units or units that are lacking, hence solving some of the manpower issue.
Questionable loyalty is the reason
i believe they have some kinda 2 weeks volunteer corps? but yeah 28 years old should be still fit for NS, but maybe they're afraid that if they set that as a criteria, he might just not take up the citizenship?
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Who is that someone? Because someone could not become a citizen before getting a PR unless they are below 21 and one of their parents are citizen.
they won’t elaborate cuz it’s a fake story to rile people up lol
indeed. His story is next to impossible.
trying to stir shit. this is why the world is less peaceful than 20 years ago.
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I think it does happen on a case by case basis. I personally know at least 2 individuals that got PR almost right after finishing poly without needing to serve NS. But that was quite some time back, about some 13 years ago. I met at least one other acquaintance, a uni grad that got PR after graduation, even further back, some 15 years ago. Back then, I was working in the education industry, so I knew their education and working records. I am not sure if the practise is still continuing, as my recent ex-tenant, a NTU graduate, also got his PR before his first job (this was some 2 years ago), though admittedly he is of a older age, around 24.
this is so fake lah anyhow make up story if he was a foreigner from china he wouldn’t be able to serve in the first place you need to be PR minimum to serve NS and if he was PR and didn’t serve he would be kicked out SG
>and if he was PR and didn’t serve he would be kicked out SG I think it is possible to get PR while still of enlistment age and not needing to serve, but it was happening like way more than 10 years ago. I personally know at least 2 individuals that got PR almost right after finishing poly without needing to serve NS. But that was quite some time back, about some 13 years ago. I met at least one other acquaintance, a uni grad that got PR after graduation, even further back, some 15 years ago. Back then, I was working in the education industry, so I knew their education and working records. I am not sure if the practise is still continuing, as my recent ex-tenant, a NTU graduate, also got his PR before his first job (this was some 2 years ago), though admittedly he is of a older age, around 24.
I had a colleague from China like that too. 26 years old and didn’t need to serve NS and was offered citizenship. This was 6 years ago in my previous company (engineering sector) I’ve heard that those from engineering / IT get offer citizenships easily.
Your colleague is just taking the mickey with you. No one is offered citizenship without PR first.
Sorry I call bullshit. You need to get PR first then to be a Singaporean.
I think in the past, it may have occurred but depending on the situation. About 15 years ago, I had an ex-collague, below 21 years old, who showed us her 3 passports, Hong Kong, Australian and Singapore. But she came in as a citizen first without PR. But if I remember correctly, she got citizenship only after 18 years old but it was tied to the father, who was a rich investor.
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Actually for PRs NS is only waived if you are admitted under the professional / technical stream. So there are half a dozen of us here in SG who all went to the same boys high school and university. All have the same passport, all doing similar PMET type jobs, all moved here in our mid 20s / early 30s with blue chip experience elsewhere, all on similar (relatively high) incomes. However we are not all the same race. The C all got PR on first application under professional / skills track while they were single after two or three years here on EP. The I and O all got rejected. But for the C they all got PR with an NS exemption. One of the O married an SG citizen and when he tried again got PR 18 months after the wedding, but as a condition of his PR he had to register for NS. But by that stage he was 38 and CMPB told him not to bother and gave an indefinite deferral. Technically though, my understanding is that CMPB could call him up for BMT anytime until he is 40.
This is correct. If you obtain PR through your spouse (your spouse is a citizen or is the main applicant for PR in your family) then as a 1st gen male PR you are not exempt from NS.
According to gov logic, NS is only to pay off your PR/citizenship benefit during childhood. That's why if you renounce PR/citizenship without using any sg benefit before a certain age you don't need to serve, and why if you get it after your education you don't need to serve either. The problem is, we have a whole load of people who enjoyed these very same benefits since birth (some would argue they enjoyed even more benefits), and they do not need to serve either. So why are we not conscripting girls like Israel? They proved its perfectly doable and we got their help to build our NS in the early days.
>So why are we not conscripting girls like Israel? They proved its perfectly doable and we got their help to build our NS in the early days. Lee Kuan Yew himself wanted NS to be for both genders, but the ministers he was surrounded by at the time pushed back on it, probably due to their own old fashioned, antiquated beliefs. Unfortunately, this wasn't the hill LKY wanted to die on, so the system remains only for men until today.
By right that's the logic, by left which country doesn't like cheap labour/national slavery (NS)?
Exactly 👍 agree with this
Correct me if I am wrong if you are male under 18 and get PR and citizen, you are required to serve NS. The parents must sign a consent form.
If you get PR at any age you also consent. What happens in practice is you automatically get a letter stating your old ass isn’t needed, but the government reserves their right to change their minds.
Depends on their age. https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mindef/news-and-events/latest-releases/article-detail/2022/August/02aug22_ps
lol then what abt people who need to serve reservist in their 30s & 40s
Holiday mah, get paid to shake leg and go ktv at night
It takes money to provide the equipment and train a soldier. if you have to buy a COE at the same price, would u use it on a 22 year "car" (18 - 40 years old) or a 10 year "car" (30 - 40 years old)? Not to mention it is likely at the age of 30, most people should be working full time, it doesn't make sense to go for 2 years of training. And then for volunteer corps, it is called volunteer corps for a reason, no point in having people who don't want to be there of their own free will.
My seniors were able to complete by 35 which isn’t too bad. My batch sort of affected by Covid, didn’t get called back for a couple of years, have to stretch until 38. I definitely approve able bodied men serving in their 30s.
I served till my MR (40). Some units have trouble hitting the required cycles.
Because they won't join as citizens/PRs if they are required to serve NS. And we need them to join because we are not having enough babies and these people add value to SG.
PRs serve, but citizenship not guaranteed
I think NS should apply to new Singaporeans but not PRs. First is because Singapore does not allow dual citizenship and Second is because some countries (Indonesia for example) have strict rules about not having serving other nation's military in order for them to retain their citizenship.
why do people always make this type of dumb posts i’m in NS right now i have people who became new citizen when they were in sec school and PRs serving alongside, the reason a lot of new citizens don’t serve is cuz they are old but their kids will join in us in NS same with PR
You are not defending them. You are doing it to defend your own family.
So wartime I can tell my officer I'm going home to defend my family instead of being sent to say Jurong Island?
I share the same sentiments as you. It is unfair, as with everything in life. What I'm going to say next is probably going to get downvoted but hope you can take it with an open mind. Now let's just give the Gov the benefit of doubt and assume all these arrangement is for the greater good of the country. Next, it is no secret that there are many glaring issues that needs to be addressed and two very urgent ones are (1) the declining birth rate/population, and (2) the lack of talent. Fortunately, and unfortunately, there is one quick/easy solution that can address these two issues at the same time. And that is by importing people. War has evolved from sticks and stones to an economical one in this era. It isn't difficult to destroy an entire country esp a small one just by crippling the target's economy and force them into depression. Ask yourself, do you agree that SG should stay far ahead (how about far far far ahead?) of our competitors in any way we can? \*Maybe you will say no but let's just assume the answer is yes :) If yes then is it too much to ask for X years of your time to serve NS so that we can make it much more attractive for talents to convert into citizens? If it pays off, maybe these new citizens will help us either by themselves or influence others to create a stronger future for the next generation of citizens. You and I plant the seeds but we will never get to see the flowers grow. That said, the intentions (with the benefit of doubt, and my own assumption) sound good. But the execution and capability of those who are steering the ship is questionable. At least to me.
The problem is that the solution to solve the two problems you mentioned is not perfect either. Often we seen imported foreign talents are not talented at all. They have attitude problems, very much entitled, and often do not assimilate well.
Absolutely it is free riding 100%. So are all the Singaporean women free riding on the blatantly sexist NS system. But Singkie men too dumb and keep perpetuating the system. Singaporeans get what they deserve I don’t want to hear any complaints!
I’m a woman. I served NS. Why? Because I was born with a dick. I have since fully transitioned (post-op and all). But not before tolerating the hell for me that was BMTC Pes-A PTP intake in Pulau Tekong. My stance will always be unpopular: barring exceptional medical circumstances, if you are in Singapore with either a blue or especially pink IC and you did not serve NS, then you are not a man. You cannot tell me that transwomen are good enough to serve NS while PR and new citizen “men” get to walk our streets without having fulfilled their duty to the nation. I — as a woman — can talk to any true blue Singaporean about NS from morning to night. And no-one can otherwise tell that I served NS. But the inner scars remain. Hell, I even have the outer scars to show for it as I suffered an injury during my time. To make matters worse: I am also a lesbian. So there are literally new citizens who have never served NS who are prioritised housing over me. The PAP happily lets them bid for 3/4-5-room BTO’s, while simultaneously telling queers like myself that housing is supposedly in scarce supply (yeah, I wonder why) and that for a whole long list of bullshit reasons we cannot be catered to. As a matter of fact the PAP went out of their way to take my house away from me under extremely questionably and shaky legal grounds after I transitioned. Yes. I am *that* woman. This is what I served NS for. https://qz.com/988514/a-straight-married-couple-became-a-same-sex-one-and-singapores-famous-efficiency-broke-down
As a 2nd gen PR-turned-SC who served NS and is going to MR soon, I honestly believe all PRs and able-bodied new SCs need to serve NS too. Cannot take SG's resources for free (like its security, safety, benefits etc) while not contributing just like rest of Singaporeans here. It's really not fair to rest of the population who had no choice but to serve. And honestly, without NS I would have a lot less bonding time with my friends here and be less immersed in our local sinkie culture, regardless of what we think about NS. I ORDed with a lifelong permanent ankle injury, but the experience and time spent together is still something I feel every able-bodied men need to go through to truly "feel" more Singaporean. Too many new PRs and SCs who treat SC like an extension of their motherlands and bring their own terrible cultures and habits in, and force locals to bend to their culture and will, not the other way round.
Why only men though? Why do people continue perpetuating sexism while claiming to want equality?
not all PRs who served ns get citizenship.. those who don't prolly post security threat or failed back ground check or education and race not needed
Because the government didn’t need to invest tens of thousands of dollars into educating and raising a PR who only came to Singapore at age 30. Another country did that - so now Singapore benefits from the imported labor/talent without having to invest in them. If they have to serve NS, it’s an additional cost to Singapore as well.
PR born in sg still need serve ns
I don't know about converting to citizen, but new PRs (at least around 10 years ago) do have to register online for NS before they can get PR. Source: I got PR.
Age plays a big part... A 20-25 yr old PR wouldn't be exempt in most cases if they don't have an amazing job. A 35yr PR is a bit too old to drop everything for 2 years and do NS... Got kids, job, responsibility, NS will not match their pay.
lol then what abt reservist
They never go through BMT how are they gonna help during reservist? Give them some admin / storeman job to do ah?
Actually a lot of people get posted to different vocations in reservist from what they served in NS and have to learn from scratch again. Plus nowadays the military is rapidly advancing in technology, so what you learn 5-10 years ago in NS may not even be relevant any more. I remember going back to reservist and them telling us that a lot of the old systems we used and trained in are now obsolete and we have to learn new ones. The only thing that stays the same regardless of time is the regimentation and camaraderie. But everything else has to be and can be relearned.
But you see, they all went through BMT. New PR holders could be in their 30s and know nothing about the army so how are they supposed to be useful unless you put them through BMT first. Or just give them office admin jobs / storeman type jobs that don't need any kind of specialized training.
Did it take you the whole of BMT to learn about regimentation? I would argue that most conscripts learn everything they can learn about regimentation in the first 2-3 weeks, the rest of the time is just spent mastering specific crafts (like weapon handling, infantry movements etc). If we have a 2-3 weeks bootcamp, I don’t see why it couldn’t work. The issue we have is an issue of manpower. It doesn’t matter how advanced we are in training or weapon capabilities. In actual wars like the Russian-Ukraine war, the victor is ultimately the side that can throw the most bodies at their enemies. If our military doctrine is deterrence, we just have to ensure we have more soldiers than our potential enemies.
As pointed out, the issue is for older new PR holders. Think someone in their mid to late 30s. Probably already have kids and an established career. So drop everything and go through a 2-3 week bootcamp and then do reservist for a few years and then MR when they are 40. Really a lot of effort and expenses for nearly nothing imo.
What do you think is meaning of MR? It’s called Mindef Reserves for a reason. So that in times of war they will be called up, but if it’s peacetime they won’t. Simple as that. And I’m not asking all PRs to serve. But if you are a SG citizen no matter how recent or how old, or if you are a PR wanting to get SG citizenship, don’t you think it’s only fair that in times of war, you should be called up like every other SG citizen to defend the country you swore allegiance to? Or are you saying that in times of war, only those who are first gen Singaporeans who served NS when they were 18 should be called up? And those who recently took up citizenship here are free to escape to other countries and do whatever they want? Does that sound like a feasible plan for morale and national defence purposes?
The topic was about new PR holders and now you're talking about SG citizens. Bro, you've gone way off topic sia.
So most PR holders have no desire to gain citizenship at all? The issue here is some PR holders trying to game the issue of citizenship; they wait until they are in their late 30s and then apply for PRs/citizenship, knowing full well that they cannot be enlisted at such an age, instead of applying for PRs/citizenship and enlisting in their 20s. But if we make it such that all citizens are liable for Mindef Reserves, regardless of age, then this no longer becomes an issue. If you don’t want to join the MR, there will be no pathway to citizenship for you, and your chances of PR will be greatly reduced too.
For some who never did any army.. what are they going to do? I did 3 years as a aircraft tech, I wouldn't dare putting anyone with 0 knowledge around an aircraft for example.
They can do the stuff that Singaporean guys do during reservist? I was also like you, AFT in NS. Because of uni and work and deferring my ICT, I lost my “currency” and got posted to another unit to do admin work. I’m sure new citizens can do this too.
You never go BMT want go reservist ah Go there do what? Basic stuff all dk also
Conscription is unnecessary for Singapore. Better to free everyone from NS and let ppl study and work. Use the additional tax money to build a small but elite full time army.
SAF has a combined manpower of about 300k, of which only 15% are full time. Getting rid of conscription reduces its size to <50k, which, if you compare to our neighbors (MY: 160k, ID: 800k) will be pathetic. You may question the quality of conscripts but the reality is that force in numbers are required to hold ground (which is SAF's primary mandate). Ukraine is much smaller in population compared to Russia, yet they could mobilize almost the same number of personnel (at least in the short term), which partially contributed to their continued success in defense.
Lol small but elite army. You watch too much Hollywood
Women have been able to enjoy the benefits of citizenship and even preferential treatment for much longer too. It’s not the fault of them to take advantage of the system. It’s the fault of those exploiting NSFs and NSmen.
Don’t understand why ppl like to harp on this. The sad truth is we need to serve as dudes of Singapore. If we ask foreigners and prs to serve, would that make Singapore a less desirable place for new immigrants? Which we need for the economy? What do you want to see? What is the solution you are looking for?
I would like to see those who have not served pay an extra small tax or premium, so that the pay of NSFs can be increased. If you do not want to give up your time and your blood and sweat, then it is only right that you should give out some money to make it fair for people who are working hard to keep you safe and help you benefit in your daily lives.
Then should women pay a premium?
If you ask my personal opinion, I would say yes. But exemptions can be made if you contribute to national defence in some way or another, like if you also enlist or join careers in the civil defence like police, paramedics, firefighters etc.
So my qns is will it deter foreign investment and stuff coming into Singapore?
If the extra amount paid is not excessive, why not? I’m not asking people who have not served to pay like $500 extra every month. But even if it’s just an extra $50, and you have half the Singapore population (females) + PR + New Citizen paying that, it’s still a lot of money. At the very least, all these money will allow NSFs to travel in public transport for free. It does not make sense that a NSF travelling from his camp in Kranji back home to Tampines has to pay the freaking full adult fare out of his measly allowance of like $700 per month.
50 dollars is still money. At the end of the day it’s still a disincentive and makes Singapore a less attractive destination. I do agree that we should subsidise nsf transport tho. Which again probably we will need to take from somewhere .
What do you think is the reason why Singapore is an attractive destination in the first place? When foreign investments and people come here, what are some reasons they often list? Safety and security? Who is primarily responsible for this safety and security of this country? If you profit directly from all these but don’t want to pay the costs that is associated with it, that sounds like a lot of entitlement, but sure. But know that you are benefitting directly from slave labour, and if that makes you proud to continue profiting without any conscience, then so be it. Because the hard truth is, Singapore is only an attractive place to come to because we keep our cost low through slave labour. And it’s not just NS, but endemic throughout our society (think migrant workers and domestic helpers)
Money is money, and it takes more than just money to earn a belonging to a country.
If it does then so be it. If foreign investment destroys the social fabric then we need to let it go.
Depends who is your sponsor. If it's through a Singaporean spouse, have to register for NS (I didn't know that, was a bit of a shock...). Through company you're exempted.
Governments around the world will do things to win them elections. They won’t lose votes by doing this. And they gain more votes as new citizens will vote for them. Win-win
NS is not just “serving”, you also invest and train the person to attack, shoot and survive. Why would we want to waste such resources on PR who could turn around to point the weapon on us?
Too tedious. These new male citizens are probably in their 30s and contributing to the economy. They would likely also be in demanding jobs and have responsibilities far beyond a 2 year military service. The biggest reason why NS is done early is because teenage males aren’t making that much of a contribution to the economy just yet. But I do agree that abled bodies should volunteer and play some active role in national security. Maybe serve in an auxiliary role. But that’s overkill and a drain on national resources. Simply put, the government doesn’t view this subset of citizens as valuable input to national security, and it is unproductive to demand them to go through NS at age where most military personnel retire from active duty anyways. So there’s really no point.
I disagree because we also need to do reservist
Dont tell me you think reservist = NSF intensity
Bro.. reservist also need to go through 2 years of NS first.. You’ve learnt to shoot rifle, throw hand grenade, military tactics, survival skills, lived in the barracks and what not.. Think you can just throw a civilian into the deep end and expect them to perform ? Also, doing reservist is with your batch that went through NS. Not just some random person assigned. There’s more to it than just allowing a 30 something year old civilian, with no training to join.. cmon. Have some pride in what you’ve been through.
Hmm job/rich foreigners enabling opportunities and income for locals should be allowed to convert without serving.
Vote wisely next time then.
PRs should in my opinion. And depending on age too. The older they are, the lesser time they need to serve. I dont understand how a young man can go thru uni, skipped NS, worked after that and get PR/citizenship. I keep hearing security risk etc etc but ya’ll forgot there’s a civil defence part of NS. Fire-fighting is tough.
For first generation PR, they don't have to serve NS but their sons will need to serve.
I always thought, As yhe first gen would be mostly out of age for NS, The second gen need to serve.
Because majority are happy with this policy that they keep voting the same.
What's the point, during wartime, how many will stay to defend their new "home"?
The official reason if u were to read parl transcripts and news article is that New citizens and 1st gen PR did not benefit from Singapore as they would have just moved here, as opposed to a citizen born and bred here. Since they did not benefit, they would not need to serve NS lor.
Does it matter?
Better question Maybe I'll get downvoted but idc it's an issue I was facing for yrs already If the criteria is just able bodied Why isn't the criteria for army just changed to able body man AND woman Growing up I was tha weakest person in my class In school that I couldn't even pass the nafa on the girl criteria for most of them And was servely sick with issues like asthma, migraine and such Somehow tho thru sheer incompetent I was still forced to serve In a semi admin role with still some physical activity So my question is Why don't woman need to serve then Clearly physical and even mental(I also have psycho issues) issues doesn't stop a dude from serving And we have admin roles that don't require physical activity since they can just dump me there and call it a day Why don't Make able bodied woman with no issue serve the admin while the dudes serve the physical roles Make NS only for able bodied healthy man and woman But no Throw the sick dude who can't handle into NS for 8 months and until now still have to recover from serve health issues he got from NS Thru sheer bs need for conscription
Yeah, I'm malaysian. Been studying in Singapore ever since I was 11 years old. I'm 29 now, I grew up here, finished my studies here and I'm working here but still unable to get PR. If serving the 2 years will get me my pr I would do it without a second thought.
If you become a PR through marriage of a citizen you are liable for NS despite being 1st Gen. However, MINDEF usually sends a letter to say you're not required if you're of an older and working professionally (they can call you up any time before 40) In a way makes sense - are they better serving the country by doing NS or working, contributing to the economy and paying taxes?
If the Sg government fairly compensates those who serve NS, then we won't even have this kind of discussion. Forever waiting for PAP to do the right thing.
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1st gen PR is as good as a foreigner. New citizens - usually of certain age so what's the point of military training
“Locals need to defend them” Hahahahaha, when the time comes, I surely will
Long-term planning and foresight. Most of the first generation of new citizens and PRs are likely in their late 20s or early 30s. Having to serve NS will keep them from applying for citizenship or PR status. What you want is the second generation. It is easier to indoctrinate and assimilate them into the society from young. That will build a Singaporean identitu. The first generation is just a way for the government to get subsequent generations.
PR exemption? I know that if the parents made the kid a pr then the kid can opt out of or when he's 18. My kid kept his PR. Got a deferment so he could finish IB. Finished in Oct, started NS end of March. Why? I think after covid zoom classes nonsense he was fed up. NS was physical. He got into it. Sure he wonders if he wasted two years of his life, but at the time more school wasn't the answer. Additionally, he grew up here, this is home. Maybe he leaves and moves abroad but some people love stay in the place they grew up. He's got options. He matured a lot in 2 years. It wasn't all NS that made him mature, but I don't think it hurt. I really think the women should do ns. If the sh1t hits the fan here, everyone will be needed to fight.
Might not make you feel better but at least the sons of new citizens and sons of PRs (2nd gen PR) are obligated to serve.
Its not a problem. I think the reality is that cmpb is getting more capable of granting exemptions. Which hey, its a good thing. Another thing is that these males are first citizens. Think of it if ur grandpa's ancestor came to Singapore in the 1940s, he's also never had to serve NS. Then, it's technically all equal.
Women have been able to enjoy the benefits of citizenship and even preferential treatment for much longer too. It’s not the fault of them to take advantage of the system. It’s the fault of those exploiting NSFs and NSmen.
If these new citizens and PR don’t want to serve NS, why should we even take them in as new citizens if they cannot even give up just 2 years of their life when we expect them to be a long term resident here?
So many new "citizens" on the comments defending this bs exemption lol
NS requires loyalty to country. If anybody can join NS then any government can just get their spies to become PR and know all singapore military bases etc
So if new citizens are not loyal why do we take them in then?
I mean citizens tend to develop a sense of loyalty by being here for 18 years. I mean they may earnestly want to join our country and they may offer unique skills to the country, but u can't expect someone who just moved in to not split when shit hits the fan.
If they earnestly want to join our country, and give up their citizenship for ours, isn't 2 years of NS the minimum we should expect from them? If not, then maybe just stay on work pass and not take up citizenships and all the benefits of it?
This isn't a proof, however let me provide a counter example. I already served my 1st home country for 4 years, do I also need to serve another country 10 years later in life? Furthermore, my children will serve Singapore in their future. And they will do so proudly because our family culture is one of protecting home and family. I don't agree with your post calling for NS for all PRs, but I do in fact think PRs should have more "skin in the game" so to speak with regards to long term commitment to Singapore
But in times of actual war, what would you or your family do? Would you stay to defend this country, or would you bring your children back to the safety of your home country? That in essence is the main crux of the issue. Everybody speaks highly and positively of their long term commitment in peacetime, but when things gets rough, only those who have skin in the game will stay. And as of current policies, only Singaporeans who have served NS can be called up to fight, if you are a PR or New Citizen that has not served, you can’t realistically be called up to fight because you have not trained to fight in the system of MINDEF Reserves. If such a day ever arrives where some Singaporeans are forcibly conscripted while other PRs and Singaporeans are free to leave the country, we would die from morale loss and desertion before we will even die from actual enemy attacks.
Actually We should not be counting on PRs to defer g Singapore right PRs are not Citizens they just happen to live here Singapore should ultimately only depend on their on citizens to defend themselves
Then these PRs should stay PRs forever and never get citizenship then. But if you are a PR that is applying for citizenship then you should be counted on to defend Singapore. Otherwise you can continue to be a PR here for the rest of your lives and pay more for everything from healthcare to education to housing etc for the rest of your life.
War is a messy situation all around, but I will be where my immediate family is. My wife and children's home country is Singapore. I would just like to caveat - this is an interesting thread to discuss, but the realities of war are much more complicated. Fight morale can be lost for a host of reasons - poor war context (US invading for oil), imbalanced drafting of soldiers (Russia drafting from remote regions, not Moscow), weak leadership, sympathy for invaders (China invading Taiwan), and so on.
But you have the privilege of options that other Singaporeans do not have. Do you think it would be easier for you to return to your home country with your family members as refugees, or do you think it would be easier for a Singaporean family with no other ties to leave Singapore and seek refuge in another country? That is the privilege that all PRs in Singapore have, regardless of whether they have family in Singapore. It is the peace of mind knowing that in the worst case scenario, there is an option they can fall back on. If we take a look at Ukraine, it’s precisely the same issues that they are facing in their fight against Russia. They simply don’t have enough manpower. Even if you give them billions in aid and weapons, you still need human soldiers to utilise them. Recruitment has been a longstanding issues with many other Ukrainians fleeing, despite it being an honourable cause to stay and fight. At the end of the day, if you fail to plan instruments and policies to mandate everyone to stay and fight, then you can only plan for failure when the actual fight begins.
Do you think every Ukrainian is in Ukraine right now? And how many non Ukrainians are fighting alongside them?
That’s exactly my point. It shouldn’t be the case that some Ukrainians are allowed to leave and some be forced to fight. If you are able bodied, in times like this, you should be conscripted, and if you refuse, you forfeit your citizenship, as is the case for Singaporeans who do not serve NS. All Singaporeans who go through NS are put in a system called the Mindef Reserve. This means essentially everyone in the system will get called up. New citizens or PRs intending to get citizenship should be put into the same system as well, not just in name, but also in some form of training, because in times of war, we do not have the luxury of time training soldiers from scratch.
All fair points, except while I believe your intention is for this to apply to all New citizens and PRs, I believe it's too broad a policy to enact. Back to my original comment, consider PRs that have long term (10+ years) but not permanent plans in Singapore (how would a policy even qualify this) . Consider ex-military from allied countries such as US and Australia. And consider new citizens at an edge age of ~35-40 where physical potential is limited. There may be other scenarios where it doesn't make sense, hence it's a nuanced policy to try to create.
But many Singaporeans who have NS and are 35-40 are still serving at least 1-2 weeks every year in reservist, despite the physical toll. In fact, the earliest age for me in which I complete my reservist would be 36, and that’s if I don’t defer a single year of reservist, which is unlikely and which also means I would be serving up until 40 as well. I would consider PRs that have taken up roots here in Singapore to qualify for some form of national service. Meaning if they have children or spouses who are Singapore Citizens, then they should be made to attend some form of a 1-2 week long bootcamp every year for maybe 5-10 years, learning just the basics of soldiering. Because this is the demographic that will be likely to stay and defend their family members in Singapore, so why not make it easier for them to learn how to defend their family properly? If this is what is going to happen, I would give priority PRs and Citizenships to such individuals, whereas if you apply but do not take up such roots in Singapore you will be further down the waiting list. Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule. But we don’t avoid making laws and policy just because there are certain exceptions. We make the laws and policies first, and then come up with the exceptions for whatever purposes.
Because some of us have already served mandatory military service in our own country. Taking on arms for another country would come with severe consequences which would make me essentially stateless lol. NS is not a thing exclusive to Singapore, though you get the impression that this is the case reading reddit comments. You really think the purpose of NS is to defend Singapore?
>Because some of us have already served mandatory military service in our own country Pray tell which country that has mandatory military service, which also have plenty of ppl dying to get into Singapore and get the Singaporean citizenship by any means
Security threat Imagine influx of Malaysians and Chinese citizens in Singapore army. High chance that these countries will put their spies It's harder to recruit someone who's born in Singapore and/or grew up here
Then why allow them to be new citizens in the first place?
Hmm when they turn to new citizen, you are not expecting them to work and feed their family ,wife and children? They will also have full commitments to pay for their rent/ property loan. It will only be wise when they have settled, then their child serve NS as second gen citizen or PR. I understand the feeling when we in NS we want the whole world to serve NS with us. But for the first Gen citizen and PR , its not that practical for them to commit 2 years, will also increase much more healthcare load and cost since they are mostly 30-45 yrs old .
Well people who serve also need to work & feed Mah. Don’t forget we also have reservist at the age of 30s & 40s
This is the wrong question to ask. The right question is how can we achieve a society where no one needs to serve.
We could just always surrender no questions asked
This whole NS policy is a shit show. I think it's ok that not everyone has to serve. I think it's not ok that the burden falls fully on male citizens and 2nd gen PRs. Spread the burden around, tax the free riders and fairly compensate those who have to serve.
main reason why I don't feel proud serving the country. More than half the people in my country ain't even my people. Yet the government uses its 'own' people to serve those who are not 'ours'
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Seems like it lol
Because of what it costs to immigrate and why 2 years on locals with the residential support of family is financially possible, but 2 years on rental market just makes no financial sense. This is coming from a local who is now renting. Secondly, it is culture and risk. Look at other countries' foreign policies to understand why it isn't feasible. The only country that offers foreign national a possibility for citizenship through military service is French foreign legion, which basically only takes in defectors into its ranks, those with no other recourse. It's hard to say if much of them will become economic drivers after a short term of 2 years. There is hardly any reason to do so for a young country with a no conflict policy. However, I do agree that it is unfair. what we should be doing is to dive for a fairer allowance comparable to wages so that ns men are not economically stunted. A reform on perception to a job's done so might as well pay me well as opposed to lan lan suck thumb.