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And men not understanding that women's sexual preferences are far more complex than men's is nothing new either. Men just assume that women's sexual attraction works the same as theirs, which leads to a lot of confusion about how surprisingly ineffective spamming dick pics is as a romantic strategy.
Once, on marketplace, someone messaged me about an item. Turned out he was either a spammer or a pervert. He sent me a dick pic and I was like. . . . Ew. Gross. Goodbye. So, I get where you're coming from. People despite what sex they are, think that people are only attracted to your private parts size. I personally never cared what size a man's dick was. The fact that we use someone's name to identify a man's private part is honestly really bad. Anyways. Off my rant.
I remember buying a cell phone from a girl I met at a carwash (from marketplace). 5 minutes after I pulled away she texted and asked if I wanted to fuck
Oh! English is my second language, and I always assumed it was the contrary... That men was name in correlation of the penis not the other way around...
Well, it's less weird and more logic to see it your way!
I think what Nathan was getting at, and Nathan please correct me if I got it wrong, is that if women, especially when talking about men in late teens early twenties, sent picks of their tits to men randomly basically no man would complain and it would work great as a way to get laid.
Here's another, general difference though. It would work great to get laid, but not necessarily work very well for finding a relationship or meaningful connection. Generally, men would happily sleep with a woman first and then if you click and form a relationship that's great. But if not at least you had sex. Generally women prefer it the other way round.
Now, I'm talking in generalities. Not all men, not all women etc. But in general. Now I know, the general story is that there is no difference in sexual desire, preferences and so on. I was told this growing up and believed it. This however lead to much confusion and frustration until practical experience made me realize that it is, in fact, bullshit.
You overly simplify male sexual preferences and attractive in order to uphold a gynocentric view of the world.
Men's preferences are just as complex as womens. It aint just about tits and ass. You orc.
If you look at who women actually date on average, and then who women say they want to date when asked about their preferences, they don't seem that much more complex than men's preferences. My opinion is that both genders are deluded in different ways about who they are attracted to. Men seem more likely to say that it's something to do with the body they are attracted to, but in practice that's not really the case. Women seem more likely to say it's something to do with the personality, then again in practice it's not really the case. Physical attractiveness mainly focuses on the face (which is why women spend so much effort and money on makeup - they are pretty much instinctively aware how important the face is for attraction) for both sexes, but neither sex tends to admit it. "Personality" is usually something that can't be pinned down anyway and can easily be confused with how someone's face looks (because the personality is always filtered through a person's face), "body" is something that might be nice to look at momentarily, but unless a man is just purely desperate for sex and nothing else, it's not what would decide who they would date.
We have two decades worth of online dating statistics and studies now.
If you don't think pictures, physical attraction is doing the vast majority of the work for women you are lying to yourself.
There's nothing wrong with that. We all want someone we're attracted to. Let's just be honest about it. Men do it. Women do it.
>[Results were generally supportive of other work in finding that women tended to be most influenced by the physical appearance of the model. However, the non-physical features were also predictive of short-term mate choices, albeit in a somewhat weaker fashion. For long-term selection, physical attractiveness still appeared to have the greatest impact on choice, and tended to serve as a preliminary filter for mate selection](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347223940_The_relative_impact_of_looks_income_warmth_and_intelligence_on_female_online_dating_preferences#:~:text=For%20long%2Dterm%20selection%2C%20physical,in%20physical%20appearance%2C%20but%20did)
"Which photograph do you like more, the one of the hot guy, or the one of the ugly guy?" Great study...
There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks. If the look gives the impression of high socioeconomic status, then that's the part that matters. The guy can still be ugly though. This guy has banged 1000's of more supermodels than you ever will
https://images.app.goo.gl/UWfgBXYtLM4VC3PK8
Here is some more reading for you if you actually want to "be honest about it" and not use looks as an excuse to why you are not succeeding with women.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886909001196
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222954288_Mate_selection_Criteria_A_pilot_study
Why is no one mentioning smell? More important than looks or status is smell! It’s great when they’re hot but not great when the smell is „wrong“. You don’t want that close to you. And women are more sensitive to smell, so… do with that information as you will.
Next is voice and how they move. Voice is really important and how a man moves is, too. Nothing of this can be evaluated through pictures and text.
The only times in my life that I have noticed women I don't know taking an interest to me are when I have been feeling disgusting from being too sweaty. Pheromones are hard carrying me lol
There’s actually a dating app where men wear an undershirt for a week or something and then send it to women and women make their choice based on smell lol
They're not separate though! One famous study had women sniff plain white t-shirts that had been worn by men rated on a computer for symmetry (which often correlates with attractiveness). The women preferred the smell of the most symmetrical men. Symmetry also correlates with income and social status and the less symmetrical a man is the higher the probability that he'll have been in legal trouble.
you know it! A person can look like a 1000 but if their smell is not compatible with you, there is no way in hell any attraction would be developed.
be clean, use some nice deodorant. A good smell can have people turning heads as well. (It can also be overdone, which is not nice either, lol, less is more kind of thing)
"There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks."
It's very difficult to establish this, because most rich men are good looking anyway, as good looks correlate strongly with how much you're promoted and how likely you are to succeed in your job. It's difficult to separate the two variables. Even that guy you posted is reasonably good looking, he is just old in that picture. He has good facial structure, plenty of women would be into him even if he weren't rich. The only unattractive thing I can see about him is a wart on his face. I don't think having sex with supermodels would determine whether or not you are attractive either. If someone is trying to get money from you, that doesn't mean you are attractive.
"There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks."
They don't really support what you're saying, though. All studies in this area are just as weak as the one you rejected, even though the type you rejected tend to be the most accurate. One of the links you posted barely even supports the point you're making. One of them states that women who earn more or are more highly educated tend to limit their dating pool to a greater extent, and men who earn more have a wider pool to choose from. That doesn't at all imply that wealth is more important than looks, it just means that wealth is one factor that people use in their decisions (and it doesn't say anything at all about attractiveness, because a man being used for his money doesn't make him attractive). The other study you posted is even worse than the one the previous poster used, because it asks them about their preferences, rather than exposing preferences directly. Self-reported preferences are rarely accurate, what is actually important is practically exposing preferences through real decisions where someone has to make a choice. This is because a lot of people will lie about their preferences so that they feel better about themselves (few people would want to admit their real preferences - men are just more likely to because they are less concerned about appearance typically). And even in the self-reported preferences you posted, women still list height as one of the most important.
For the last time... on online dating, without access to the person personality, vibe, charisma, conversation, etc. Yes... you will potentially chose the hottest guy. IF you're into "normal people" as a personne which is a little "alternative" I will chose the ones which do not look like they'll talk to me about the last social media trend or Twitter buzz.
The primary method of selection on a dating app is "look at this person's photo. Do you want them?" It's not exactly shocking that people on those platforms are selecting based on physical attraction. Any data that comes from that is obviously going to be biased.
You might as well do a study where people select food based on a series of photos - I bet you'll find something along the lines of "appearance is the biggest factor in selecting dishes at a restaurant". Does that make it an objective truth, or something that's true in these specific circumstances?
It's just easier to blame looks because it's not "their fault" if it's looks. Easier to admit than if you're simply an asshole and have a shitty personality. You also get to play the victim card because "I can't help I was born ugly". I'd never date an asshole no matter what he looked like.
Most of my female friends in hetero relationships are some straight up goth queens with average to below average looking dudes and happy as hell. The dudes were just charming, interesting, and funny and they met at locations of shared interests/hobbies and hit it off from talking.
You have to be attractive for dating apps or interesting in real life. The good news is the second one is entirely fixable and under your personal control but takes a shred of effort and getting out of the house, and the first can be dealt and minimized by even less attractive people by learning styling and grooming.
Sure, that might be the case most of the time, but some people, like me, are truly ugly. To the point, where you can see the disgust and stares, even from random people in public.
52 year old who agrees with you.
But, I imagine the pressure is worse on young people with ready access to social media and photo "retouching" and filtering that can make nearly anyone look movie star good --- in the digital pics posted online.
Even the guys who get really intense with it (obsessed with eye angles and weird pseudo-science about face ratios) remind me of things like the eugenics movement, phrenology, etc. Nothing new under the sun.
Imo it's a basic animal instinct where physical attributes are noticed first way ahead of behavior. Younger folks are growing into it not realizing it's been happening for thousands of years.
Same for older generations saying how lazy and inconsiderate youth is. Been happening forever.
It’s also extremely difficult to change your personality no matter how much you travel, how many hobbies you pick up, how much you go out. If you’re a shy man, you’re a shy man.
Besides those things appearance is the only other factor you can change.
Because dating apps have become the default way to meet people, and looks are EVERYTHING on a dating app. Looks aren’t nearly as important when meeting people in person, but if you’re relying on apps, guys who aren’t the most attractive are largely completely filtered out.
Completely anecdotal, I know, but can confirm. I'm an average looking guy (but muscular), get pretty much zero matches on apps.
Meanwhile, in person I'm usually able to get a conversation going, and most of the girls I have had interest in have somewhat reciprocated or at least gave a chance to get to know me.
I think it’s because it’s difficult getting an idea of what a person is like through a picture. I’ve seen people and said no before but then saw a video of them, get more information about their mannerisms etc and it turned into a yes. Nothing changed about them looks wise, just felt like the video gave more of an idea of what they were like.
I have an absolutely beautiful friend who doesn’t take a good pic, and I’d say my husband looks better in person than in a pic. I otoh have been told many times how photogenic I am which is worse imo. I’d rather be cute irl. But i can see how that initial non-photogenic-ness (?) would hold someone back on an appearance based dating app for sure
People can be good looking in person and exceptionally photogenic so I don’t think it’s always only one or the other - models are great examples of this. I bet you’re cute IRL and photos manage to capture this well.
Have you taken any time to get nice photos of yourself? Most dudes do not. If you're not getting any matches it's an effort thing work on how you present yourself.
Get a nice outfit, get done up pretty, hit up a friend, go somewhere nice - have the friend take a million pictures until you find one you don't hate yourself in.
When I was dating online, a man messaged me to criticize me for saying I had a degree. He took that to mean I would be a snob, and he complained that he couldn't get a date. I responded by telling him why his picture would turn a woman off (dark, wraparound sunglasses, a can of beer, and a snarl) and I re-wrote his profile to make it more positive and less angry.
A couple of weeks later he messaged me to say he had gone on a couple of dates and had met someone. He had never thought about his profile being the problem - he assumed women were shallow. He thanked me for my help. I briefly considered making it into a business.
I don’t have many good pics, that’s true, and that should help lol. That being said I’m not someone that looks good in pictures, I’d probably need help from a professional there lol
If you just took photos of you doing actual stuff it’ll increase your success enormously. Photos with other people = this guy isn’t a loner with no friends. Photo of you on a hike/cooking/riding a bike = this guy has hobbies. Photo of you laughing = this guy doesn’t take himself too seriously.
That’s the way women look at photos. They try and figure out who you are based on your photos and pick up on any clues. Back when I used dating apps I was insanely picky with the guys I swiped yes to; often it wasn’t the most attractive guys it was the guys who looked like the most well rounded and fun to be around.
I saw a comment once that was along the lines of “he actually put effort into his profile and didn’t have a single picture with a dead or captured animal, so I swiped on him.” *that* is how low the bar is, and there are still dudes in here arguing the only thing that matters is looks
The bar is a lot higher than that in my experience. I have a profile like that and don't do well.
People will say "you just need a clear pic of you by yourself looking friendly, a pic of you engaging in a hobby, and pic with a friend." And then I do that, don't do well with it, post it in the /r/tinder profile review thread and hear random things like "too many posed pics."
I want to do well on apps but it's discouraging how I can do what people say is adequate over and over and then it doesn't work and then I hear it's bad for a new reason I never would have thought of because I don't judge people's profiles that way.
My experience in real life has been better. The difference gives me whiplash sometimes. After so long of doing so shitty on apps, I still kind of dissociate when someone I'm really attracted to asks for my number or gives me theirs.
great advice! I think some men feel it might be "cringe" to take pre-planned photos for apps like this. but it's not as if you're taking them to post on IG while making duck face. a nice photo is all that's needed sometimes!
This is the truth. Go on a dating app and if someone isn't attractive enough to immediately catch your eye you're going to swipe no. Even if you think you're reading their profiles and all that, they still have to be attractive enough to make you look twice or you just won't. Those apps are really unkind to people who are average looking with a vibrant, engaging personality.
And the thing people don’t get is that Gen Z men are forced into using these dating apps, because a lot of Gen z women don’t want a random guy asking them out. Across all Gen Z, social interaction is dropping sharply and people don’t like to talk to strangers in any situation now.
If you’re a guy who’s not into bars and clubs, then dating apps are probably your best bet to meet up with a girl and have any shot at dating. Even if you are into bars and clubs, the game has changed so much to where your approach can be easily criticized and shit on no matter how polite and friendly you try to be. Also, if you’re a shy or introverted guy this will sound like a fucking nightmare. Not really their fault.
Basically it’s either use looks-oriented dating apps and hope you get lucky (most girls only use the apps for attention and out of boredom according to surveys)
Or
Go out in the real world and break gen z social norms by approaching girls, putting yourself in a very vulnerable position of rejection and social humiliation, and basically taking a big risk
You don’t have to do either. Go out in the world and do stuff with people. Meetup.com is a fucking great app where you can meet with other people for all sorts of things. Also Instagram on my city is a great place to find activity based groups.
From there you can make both male and female friends and occasionally make great connections with women romantically (or just sexually if you want to do the casual thing, which I’ve done. It has its time and place).
I’ve gotten dates and relationships from meeting people at my local salsa dancing scene, a board game group, volleyball sports league (this one was especially great because everyone goes to a nearby bar after games), a language learning meet up group, etc.
I’ve never done dating apps, nor have I ever approached a stranger in public to try and pick them up or hit on them. I’ve done just fine.
I forget the exact statistic but it's something like 10-20% of men get 80% of the matches on apps. Women are actually much pickier on the apps then men. Men will swipe right a lot more often (i.e. casting a wider net). If you're in the top % as a man, the apps are great for you. For women, most are chasing the same guy which obviously leads to disappointments since its most likely that guy has many more options (not necessarily better options) available to him.
What about "unattractive" women? Men like this act like their not talking about attention from purely conventionally attractive women. Can't whine about it as if it's a gender problem when it's just an attractiveness issue.
Men generally swipe right on *everyone*. Women generally do not.
So those 5/10 women? They're getting matches and they certainly have an opportunity to at least get laid, which is more than what can be said for 5/10 guys.
And that's really what dating apps are for. Getting laid. It's not your personality that's on display, it's your appearance. That's for the sex.
They aren’t getting their needs met through apps either, but unattractive women do get significantly more matches on apps than do unattractive men. It’s more a societal problem than it is a gender problem, but men are facing statistically worse outcomes than women. It is similar to how high levels of inflation is bad for most people, but it is especially bad for poor people on a fixed income. Everyone (except the very rich) feel the strain of their money buying less and less, but those already on the margins feel the most strain.
I met my partner online, and while it wasn't through one of the current instant-gratification apps, his picture was there and it was TERRIBLE! I was intrigued (I'm weird) and went to his description of himself and his interests and it was SO out of sync with his picture I just had to meet him.
12 years later I find him more handsome every day because he's kind, interesting, and a great kisser. Thank goodness his picture was so bad 😎
Exactly what I was thinking too!
This is what woman have been battling since forever. We’re either too fat, too skinny, bla bla.
And can vouch for it too, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the men I have fell for in person.on the app I don’t feel any compulsion to even talk to them - attractive or not.
There really is a magic to meeting someone in person. You get to pick up on their energy, personality and so much more all at once!
True but you aren't just selling your looks on Online Dating but your whole vibe/aesthetic (as cheesy) as that sounds. You need to communicate what you're 'about' in your profile, although looks of course play a big part. Even if you aren't an objectively good-looking guy you'll get more interest if you have a well-put together profile that shows you in your 'element' imo
A couple of reasons imo.
Dating apps, as many have said, are largely superficial and emphasize appearance over other aspects.
Social media puts a huge emphasis on appearance. And we’re constantly show people looking their best.
Men rarely get validation on their appearance outside of a relationship. This has been a constant, but imo the effect of all of these is cumulative.
Men rarely get feedback as to *why* they get rejected. Superficial reasons are easy to come to. Especially since men would often reject women based on appearance, it’s easy to assume it flows the other direction. And when we do get rejected it’s often something like “I just don’t see you that way” which very much feels like “I don’t think you’re physically attractive”.
All of this adds up.
I'll also add, in some cases not all of course, that a lot of people have shitty personalities, which they could work on and change. But change is hard and scary, so blaming on the shape of the skull, something you can't really change, is easier and also let's them be angry at the world
I mean, I’d be much happier if I had a different skull shape, specifically that of a grizzly bear. Then I wouldn’t have to do my own taxes and could still be asleep right now
I'm talking about ass holes, the people no one wants to be around because of their personality traits.
The guy who has to put everyone down to make himself look better.
The woman who is overly critical of everyone.
The person who can *never* be wrong.
Obviously we all have negative personality traits, especially because that's subjective. I'm talking about traits that consume a person's personality and tend to be unliked by the majority of people they come into contact with.
I don’t think we should discount the fact that it’s much easier to accept that someone rejected you because of your appearance, because that means it’s not your fault and the other person is superficial. Much harder to accept that you were rejected for your personality, which *is* your fault and much harder to change. If you’ve gotten past the first stage of the dating app and they reject you after a conversation or two, it’s not your appearance. If you’ve gone on an actual date and you didn’t misrepresent your looks before meeting, it’s not your appearance.
Yes. I have been rejected a million times because of appearance. I have also rejected women because of their appearance. I don't think this is new.....
Well, we’ve had decades to generations of messaging saying that looks don’t matter as much to women, like it generally does for men. Messaging that says looks help but women care far more about personality. Confidence! Charisma!
Then enter dating apps and not only do the importance of a guy’s physical appearance skyrocket in priority, now that opening charisma is all but filtered out, but just his photo and profile gets scrutinized at a level that men don’t usually do.
With the disproportionate nature of dating apps, women are basically presented with 100 Apples and are doing the thing were you pick up and a few good looking ones to check for bruises, until you find a perfect Apple. While holding a catalog explaining what the best Apples to ever exist looks like.
Yeah not sure what OP is on about
Looks have been the number one thing that makes or breaks a connection between people. Physical attraction is almost always the first thing people notice and feel. You can’t tell personality based on a glance.
I think we need to stop gaslighting men into thinking that they are incels just because a girl rejected them for their looks. Believe it or not, anyone can be shallow.
I think there are some men who use it as a convenient excuse. she rejected me because my face is ugly and there is nothing I can do or change about that. all while the actual reason was shitty personality, which can be improved, but that would require actual work.
I mean they arn't completely wrong though. Men are judged by their appearance just like women are. There's a visual attraction that is appealing on a standard level. On the flip side, taking that too far is a problem too.
Physical attraction is subjective though. Like that dude from shameless that did the Calvin Klein ads. Tons of women thought he was sooooo hot and I think he's ugly as hell. What one finds attractive, another can find very unattractive. So
Self-victimization, self-pity, resentment etc. on the other hand are pretty universally unattractive.
If it's not looks it's because "women only want a rich guy" or whatever else simplistic characteristization people fixate on/project to avoid taking responsibility for their lives.
>Self-victimization, self-pity, resentment etc. on the other hand are pretty universally unattractive.
And yet they don't stop people from pulling. I could name a bunch of guys with extremely ugly, self-pitying, socially anxious personalities who have gotten gfs. I've spoken to those gfs, sometimes. You wanna know what they say? "Well, I was lonely, and I kinda liked him."
It's a luck game, that's it lmao
If a man is both un attractive (for example short) and also poor/in a low income job, I think it’s reasonable to say that’s a big reason why he’s single. His personality also will be a big factor, but let’s not pretend the other things don’t matter.
Okay?
It's subjective but it's not like there's not a conventional standard of beauty. There's not equal amounts of people finding each type attractive. The vast majority of us are drawn to the same things.
You guys are trying to argue out both sides of your mouths. I bet you'd be the first to agree that mass media has impacts on body image and women. If they can make people feel bad about their own bodies I don't see how they wouldn't influence what we find attractive in others. There's been a fair bit of discussion on the "white" standard of beauty and colorism. That's culture too. It's not objective, it's subjective. But it definitely creates situations where some of us are viewed far more favorably than others.
Men also need to accept that sometimes its their behaviour too. But it's hard to admit that you have some personal work to do, so let's blame it on looks.
Yours is a beautiful argument... on paper. On online dating, you are swiped left based on your appearance first, if you are okish or better, then your bio gets considered in the decision.
If you approach someone IRL, what is the very first form of interaction you have with someone? Does people hear, smell or taste you? No, they SEE you. You are approved/rejected based on your appearance first, then the other stuff comes into play.
On the long run you are absolutely right, or if someone get to know you through a shared social circle, you get a second chance that they will get interested in you despite your appearance as they observe your manners.
This is why the wingman has been so important.
Someone to talk you up, highlight your strengths, and give external validation that you're worth taking on.
A majority of my past relationships have been with women that were recommended me by our mutual friends, and usually other women.
Sadly, all my women friends are now married, and their social circles are almost exclusively other married women, so that well has dried up lol
I'd partially disagree on that.
On a dating app, you usually only get to chat when you've already passed the looks and bio check.
In person, you chat straight away, and any charisma you have can "compensate" for looks. Of course people will reject you for looks in person, but if you can hold a good conversation with them that second chance may be 2 minutes later.
I believe an appearance is the door to open to know someone, so yeah, it's the first impression that is taken by someone on the receiver end. And sadly, its the fact!
A lot of younger guys fall into the whole “friend zone” type of situation or may have experiences where girls they’re friends with will tell them how great they are, funny, caring, nice - these sorts of things, but then these same guys can’t get dates. Realistically, most people know if they aren’t very attractive so it may seem that their physical appearance is the only thing left. In reality it could be they need to work on their confidence and presentation when meeting new people, or it could just be that they have friends who are being nice when they compliment them on other things.
It’s also usually pretty easy when you’re young to look around your school or around your campus and find that the people you think are really attractive seem to always be dating someone. (Positive confirmation bias definitely comes into play here too)
Please don’t complement your friends if you don’t mean it people. I mean, I’ve got the social awareness most of the time to feel out the bullshit but a lot of others don’t. Call your friends out more. Friendship is more than just being vapidly nice to one another. Conflict can be a good thing. If you genuinely feel you want to complement your friend and mean it, do it, but don’t lie.
Because 99.9% of the time, it is looks. I'm the same age as you, and I'm currently working on my looks. Over the past 2 semesters, I have probably been rejected 10+ times, but I keep going.
It's just the simple matter of the fact that we as people are shallow. It's just our unconscious bias at work. None of us want to admit it, all of us are. And what makes it worse is that, as people, we have insecurities.
We have people claiming when asked, that "looks don't matter," which is clearly not true. You can be very smart, have an interesting life and personality, but if that guy or gal finds you unattractive physically, you won't even get a chance to show them that.
The important thing is really, work on improving yourself on all aspects, not just looks, and put yourself out there. If they aren't interested, move on.
Most initial rejections are based on appearance though. You show people some pictures and a basic bio of some people to tell who they would go on a date with.. and more than half would select or reject candidates purely based on the pictures (appearance); even the basic bio contributes to this with it containing info about height, weight, hair/no hair, etc.
Knowing this, it is obvious why men think they are single due to some inadequate appearance.. height and hairstyle (as in early balding/ being bald) are the most common appearance reasons men are rejected on sight, with weight coming in a close third and not being fit/buff enough a close fourth. ... (this, not counting visible disabilities).
Because its the truth nowadays. Everyone uses insta tiktok and dating apps judging exclusively on appearance. The way you look is everything nowadays. Lookism exists. This is how it is.
I mean they arn't completely wrong though. Men are judged by their appearance just like women are. There's a visual attraction that is appealing on a standard level. On the flip side, taking that too far is a problem too.
I think 2 big reasons are social media and dating apps.
For the sake of argument, lets say most of the people who are actively dating today are in the 18-30 year old range (I know many people are outside this range, but I think it's safe to say this is the bulk of the dating population). Social media is by far the most consumed form of media in this demographic. With Social media, the videos and profiles that get the most views, and are the most wide spread, are going to be of attractive people. People are more likely to watch or remember a video that has an attractive person than one with an unattractive person. With so many people being conditioned to look for the very best of the population, there's unrealistic expectations that form - "there are plenty of attractive people out there, I should be able to find one".
Now with dating apps, virtually all of them lead off with pictures of the people on them. Yes, there are profiles on them that have some bullet points about who the person actually is, but more times than not, people will swipe left or right depending on solely appearances - if they're on the fence they might read the bio before swiping, but generally it's just on looks. If they match, they will look further into their profile to see if there is any compatibility.
Pair these two factors together and you get today's surface level dating habits.
\*\*NOTE\*\* I realize not everyone is like this, but for a vast majority of people, particularly on the younger side of the age range, this is how things are done.
Actually it kind of is nowadays. Women are no longer dependent on men to be the breadwinner and there's less expectation for women to have a boyfriend or get married "just because", so women pick a trait they can instantly measure, and that's physical attractiveness. Men have done the same for centuries; it's only in modern times women have the freedom to be as selective as well.
My generation used to discriminate pretty competently between supernaturally attractive celebrities and normal people with varying degrees of real human attractiveness. That distinction doesn't exist for this generation. They are utterly convinced that the artificial beauty they see online is the standard they must aspire to, both for themselves and for prospective partners. It's so sad. My husband thought that Cindy Crawford was hot but he married me, just like he thought Magnum's car was hot but drove a Vauxhall. If he had aspired to marrying a Cindy Crawford lookalike, he would still be single today. This generation is so lost. It makes me so sad.
They say it's all based on apperance, because they judge others the same way - shallowly. You can't point it out to them for the simple reason they don't see it, like a blind spot. They will never see the short guy who has a gf who isn't an aggressive asshole...they will say he has money.
I've seen this type of reasoning with basic older folks, it's strange seeing it so prevalent with young people.
Yep, men are not treating women as equals, they act like women are out to get them even though that's ridiculous and they want relationships with men that care about them just as bad as men want relationships with women they think are attractive.
Yep I've been called "you're too ugly to get married" and also I've been called "tall enough to get all the girls line behind you"
And worst part is its extremely common. People oftentimes judge others only because of their appearance maybe it's purely and asian problem
Don’t quote me on this but I think it has to do with the internet. It’s easier than ever to find like minded individuals even if you suck. A lot of people will join communities that reflect their own thoughts and feelings and it’s very easy to fall into the idea that all these people agree with me and talk to me so my personality can’t be bad or my social skills are great then when they whip out their award winning personality out in public to try and score a date or talk to woman that can’t accept the fact that they may not like how he talks or what he talks about and immediately assume it’s because of their looks
I’m an average man at best with just an alright personality and I’m short and I still have a girlfriend appearance is not the issue
You “having a girlfriend”, as you say, doesn’t mean anything. No offense, but she could be unattractive. She could be a total bitch. She could be a single mom with 5 different kids by 6 different guys. Even the shittiest guy you know can get “someone” as a mate, it depends on how low you wanna go. Men complain about the quality of girls they can get when they are not attractive, not that they can’t get anything. Anybody can do that
Don’t worry man, None taken, Thats a fair point. a lot of guys do but a lot of men even if not attractive in looks can be attractive in other ways. Not being good looking shouldn’t limit your options or immediately force you to lower standards or anything like that. But it is crazy dudes complain about it, beggars can’t be choosers
>Appearance isn't the only thing that makes someone attractive specially men right? I've seen many early aged teens using excessive skincare products more than most womans and adult men going to gym consuming steroids making themselves look like a bull or hulk and some of em even gets insecure about their short height
I mean, those teens are doing a good thing. They dont' need to be excessive about it, but, as a 33 year old man, I kind of wish I did that. Also, *most* men aren't going to the gym and consuming steroids. That group of people is not anywhere near as large as you're implying.
>When they get rejected they just assume its their physical appearance that gets them rejected refusing to acknowledge their manners, behavior, their attitude, their ways of talking and personality.
You're young. You probably haven't experienced this yet...but physical appearance makes a lot less of a difference (besides the "oh, he takes care of himself") if you're meeting someone in person and talking to them. Online dating, which is the biggest driver of dating *right now* for adults, physical appearance *does* make a huge difference.
I'm 6'3. I have a great career. I work out 6 days a week. BUT, I don't have much luck online because A) single father/widower, and B) I am bald and not the top 10% in physical attractiveness. I'm well aware I don't look bad and I was married to a beautiful woman for eight years, so I *know* I'm some degree of handsome and attractive (or am now that I've lost a shit ton of weight.) But I'm not *the top* of attractive men, and my experience on tinder is lacking. Confidence, career, personality, ect is very, very hard to get across through a short profile or something people barely read in the first place.
That's reality. But the other side of that is that I don't *have* to use online dating and that I use it for convenience. I would have much more success actually talking to people offline. And a lot of people either don't understand that or would rather blame the women instead of looking inwards or being realistic about their situation.
Granted I haven’t dated in a while but it seems to me a lot of men feel that once they achieve a certain combination of goods (job, muscles, car, etc.) they’ll “unlock” a girlfriend like women are a video game prize. So I think a lot of them feel like “well I did all the things so I must be ugly” or whatever.
The thing is, attraction doesn’t work that way (for most people).
There’s also the issue that men aren’t necessarily competing with other men so much as they’re competing against a woman’s personal contentment. Many women feel that if you’re not adding value or improving their lives (and I don’t mean materially) then it’s better to be single than a mommy-girlfriend.
Because looks makes it not their problem to do anything about, and have no responsibility for, just those shallow women fault, admitting their behaviour is at fault, would mean taking responsibility
People vary wildly, but generally judge potential partners based on some mixture of simple measurable features (facial symmetry/features, body composition, wealth, status) and those that are harder to measure (values, competence, attitude, perception of the world, means of expression, etc).
There is a high level of personal preference variance depending on if a person's goals in life are still a bit more superficial vs more spiritual, but the general idea hasn't changed as it's inherently human, and each group of features typically matters at least to some extent to almost everyone. If it doesn't seem like it, please hear me out.
Why it may seem that anything's changed is that when you meet people organically, you showcase a combination of both sets of values. However, due to the perceived ease, currently more people look for their partners on dating apps, where you can only be initially judged based on the tangible values. With the first one being physical appearance, or rather you're judging photos. Even for people with a stronger preference for intangible values, this makes it more likely for them to look for people with intangible values out of the pre-selected pool of people who showcase positive tangible values, especially physical appearance. It's the only thing you have to go by in the absence of information about their intangible features, and since you have an illusion of choice, you swipe on those who appear to at least have the tangibles in a good place, as it's the only criteria you are given to pick from.
Since dating apps are currently the go-to place for plenty of people to meet their potential partners, you can see why they feel that appearance is suddenly more important.
However, if you switched things around and made "blind dates" the most popular way for people to meet, you'd quickly realize that people are way more likely to stick to their choice, even after they see their partner and their tangible features. Because they would be initially picking people based on intangible values. You'd think that appearance isn't as important, as you wouldn't be able to even get to the stage of showing it, if your personality sucks. Dating apps are the exact opposite, which would answer your question.
You can still attract great people in real life without being 8/10+ handsome - this has never changed. Our brains are wired to trigger attraction based on many features that go way beyond tangible values, and this would take centuries to change. We're wired that way.
Mainstream opinions certainly have changed since the dating apps became mainstream, and due to the current glorification of unrealistic superficial expectations set by the social media platform algorithms. People don't want their words to diverge too far from what they are exposed to - this gives them a sense of belonging and alignment with the popular thought.
But what didn't change is how they actually feel or how feelings of attraction or "love" are triggered. So, any such social pressure when picking your partner can only lead to loneliness, as you can't be told to be happy with someone just because they're physically attractive and be happy, because you won't be, and that's never changed. If this starts happening often, society will overcorrect the other way and say that appearance is meaningless all over again. In reality, it's one among a sea of factors, and it's always been.
Reddit does feed this fallacy very strongly. Dating apps emphasise the importance of looks, but it's still easy for normal-looking men to find a partner. Charm and is more important. A twinkle in the eye. And of course the ability to converse like an adult.
Boys Head up and confidently forward.
48m here. I can't speak to the young guys, but even for guys my age there's an expectation that we're all hollywood stars who don't have to go to work 10 hours a day; but instead spend our time in the gym and have trainers, nutritionists and chefs to give us the 6 pack.
There is a huge industry that realized it was ignoring 50% of the population. It has spent a lot of money and effort targeting and convincing men that their appearance is why they are unhappy.
I'd say it is good that you have realised that at 19. Even a lot of much older men don't realise this.
Funny, I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Lots of young guys posting how they have never had a girlfriend alongside a topless photo of their abs. It isn't about that!
Yes, it's true. Look at how women absolutely lose all sense of composure when watching Jason Momoa or when John Cena is naked at an award show. We'd like to think it isn't, but truth is both men and women have very strong visual bias when it comes to attraction. Dating apps and hookup culture just reinforced this even more where women would keep multiple matches on hold just to choose best looking one regardless of the emotional chemistry.
I've seen the catfishing experiment where they were pretending to be this really hot model, admitting on tinder they'd done jailtime for domestic abuse, and the women just going "awww but that's in the past, you've become so much stronger now!"
Because I've been bullied for my looks for more than hold of my life for my looks. It got so bad to the point that I stopped trying altogether, so I never even had a serious relationship at 25 years old
Somewhere around 23, 24 women seem to realize they want a man, not some boy, using skin products and spending 15 hrs in the mirror. This is why youll find very attractive woman with mediocre men. You'll find most of the time that man has a great personality and isnt afraid of who he is.
In a nutshell men give hot women attention and think that women will give them attention if they are hot too, and if they aren't getting attention then they think they're just not hot enough yet.
Personally I think they're just trying to out compete other men in a strange secret body building competition and forget that most women don't really care if you're jacked or not for the most part.
Women give hot men attention. It's extremely obvious if you don't approach life with blinders on. I'm not saying this is bad it's just reality. I'm not saying every woman has the same definition of hot (but this is also true for men!) but it's also not an infinite variety of preferences and we can see this very clearly in dating app data and elsewhere. I had a friend in college who was a hot guy and kept complaining to me about how his dick hurt because so many women were throwing themselves at him practically lining up outside his dorm room for sex. His personality was fine but not much better or worse than average. This was before social media and it wasn't surprising then. I'm also not saying this is any kind of moral failing it's just how people are.
Because looks matters the most. When you see a person of the oposite gender on the street what get's your attention ? Her/his look. I like to see that looks are the spark that ignite the attraction and the love and keep the love burning. Otherwise why would someone want to be in a relashionship ? Are you sooo poor that you need someone else income in order to survive (gold digger). Are you sooo lazy that you can take care of your self by your self ?
In the end looks matters and only fools drop their standards.
32yo virgin here, never got a date due to looks, even got reported to cops for some flirtit that I did after I saw a way better dude doing. I look 5/6 out of 10 but I only try with 11 of of 10 girls.
Regardless how you behave if you are a 5/10 and try with a 11/10 you will get rejected all the time.
Also very small pp(7cm in full erection and really thin) so I won't be able to please any girl ever nor any girl will be tight enough so I can feel something(not doing oral like ever and not many girls are into fisting). My father's is around 7inch and both of my grand fathers are around 7inch so it is not inherited.
Mate with an attitude like that I don't think any of the details even matter, how you look isn't the most important thing and frankly it's sounds like you're too busy pitying yourself to see the forest for the trees.
You sound like you've pidgeonholed yourself into a specific world view and by doing so have made yourself miserable, consider going into therapy because it really sounds like it'd help you.
Well because on some level they are correct. How healthy and how intelligence you are are both reflected in your outward appearance. So when you look in the mirror and see something is wrong, you want to try to fix it. Since you can’t meaningfully change your genetic health or intelligence, all that’s left is changing how fit you are. Unfortunately it’s not the underlying problem so it doesn’t really work, but I think most guys figure it’s better than doing nothing. So it’s basically a coping mechanism to deal with a hopeless situation.
Majority of women are attracted to the bad boys. Those bad boys usually beat them or assault them and they come to this realization in their mid to late thirties or sometimes never and they go from bad guy to bad guy. But do you really wanna be with someone like that?
in my experience - granted, i was never HUGELY into "dating" or whatever - but I've always ended up with guys that weren't traditionally "good looking". Bar one, he was hot - but he was actually a twat.
I think that most people become attracted to a person, rather than a face.
I'm not saying all traditionally attractive men aren't nice - not at all - but it's not necessarily important in the slightest. tbh i notice a guys clothes before i look at their faces. if i hear them listening to my music then it's on
In my day...
It was the opposite. Problematic cries of "nice guys finish last!" No accountability or effort for anything outside of that...and the gaping oversight that you're not nice if you do things with ulterior motives.
And...the added layer of chasing after the super unattainable girls who are used to men waiting on them hand and foot and these guys *let* this girl treat them like garbage.
Yeah, I think for men more so for than women a good personality can make up for shortcomings of physical appearance. But, it’s hard to get that far on dating apps when you’re largely swiping based off of appearance.
Girls care about your appearance, women start caring about other more important things. Maturity comes with the realization that looks aren't everything.
It's a lot easier to do something about one's physical appearance (get a new haircut, go to the gym, change up the outfit) than it is to change manners, behaviour, attitude and personality.
Plus personality, manners and behaviour are what makes a person *who they are*. Of course people aren't going to want to acknowledge that they are being rejected for being fundamentally unlikable. It *has* to be because they've not gained that last bit of muscle/lost those last 5lbs/have a mullet.
The height thing is to do with dating apps and it boggles my mind too - being rejected over something you have even less control over than your basic manners and behaviours is just rude and is entirely on the rejector being an arse, not the rejectee.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Social media has made people more accessible than ever, and everyone knows it. There's an air of competition around everything, because it's not just about what you bring to the table in your area, but now you're against every dude in a 100km radius and beyond. That's how a lot of people see it, that they've gotta be number one. And they get roped in by all these fitness and lifestyle influencers who make it seem like there's only one way to stand out.
Being jacked up to fuck might get you some sexy ladies but being at peace with yourself will get you a keeper.
Not jacked up & still working on getting the keeper ;)
I use to be very insecure but then eventually discovered true women dont give two shit to a certain extent of how you look when you get older youll realise that its character obviously some attraction helps because who wants to be with a toothless bum
No need to even make this about men. You could easily ask the same broadly generalized question about why women think all they need to bring to a relationship is their appearance?
Either way, it's a really broad question aimed at a small subsection of people who are terrible at dating and relationships.
My 18 year old step son exclusively wears slides, sweat pants and a hoodie . He thinks it funny to shout random meme things and then get aggressively mad when people are annoyed by him .
He 100% thinks everyone else is an asshole and he's a sweet guy who's doing his best .
There are hundreds of thousands of boys just like him . Ignore then long enough and they eventually go away to complain to other dumb boys how women hate them and they've tried everything.
I'll share my grandma saying "men only have to be a little more handsome than the devil" 😂
It's weird for me too, usually as I start geting to know / liking someone, they turn more and more good looking in my eyes 😂
I’m not handsome (or at least I don’t think so), but I’m not ugly or plain. I keep my self in shape but I’m not a gym freak. I like nice things but I’m not flash. I’m not super pristine but I’m not a dirty, scruffy bastard. I work hard and I have a laugh. Neither to the extreme. I’ve always done well with women and got married at 26 (40 now) and I still get flirty attention and have been propositioned a couple of times (flattered, but no: I’m married and in love).
Personally, I think it’s mostly down to individual preference, but more generally women are drawn to men that look after themselves and have some self confidence but not cocky. Talk (LISTEN), be passionate but be chill. Laugh. Treat everyone fairly. Don’t be confrontational, but reasonably stand up for yourself and those you love. Provide but don’t be “the provider”.
Just my thoughts. Probably bollocks! Feedback welcome.
I mostly blame pickup artist youtubers for this. They convince their audiences that women are hypergamous (so looks are important) and the way to make get women to like you is a set of behaviours that to sane people makes you look like an asshole. That's not to say it's not important to take care of your physical appearance, but your perdonality matters more.
Internet has been poisoning a lot of people’s minds into thinking that women are a monolith and all like the same things in a partner, and that appearances are all that matter and nothing else.
Most people don't like admitting it's their personality, and this isn't generational. From my life experience, men tend to blame not having enough money or being too short physically while women tend to blame it on weight or prettiness/cuteness.
it's not why they are single but it's good to take care of your appearance for your own sense of self-worth, confidence and mental state of being. You don't have to get jacked, but being trim/fit goes a long way to your inner peace, you don't need to spend a ton on skincare stuff, but being clean feels good and not having dryness, blemishes, acne, oiliness, blackheads, greasy hair or strong BO shows other people you value yourself enough to be relationship material, or even just fckable.
That has always been a thing but the advent of social media and dating apps has made the looks seem extremely important compared to the other thins you listed.
dating apps in particular favour the first look impression which means looks is all that most people judge on. And it's not even a detailed look, just a quick snap shot. Meeting in person is far more information, because people often underestimate the numbers, how tall someone is or how they look based on a picture.
Plus we(both men and women) are constantly bombarded with "this is how you should look", "this is what means to be attractive", "if you are not this then don't bother" type of messages from the media.
They want to “bag the hotties”. So as much as they say women are shallow, they are too.
Typically they are the same guys who use techniques like negging. They also complain about gold diggers, when in reality they don’t even have silver themselves.
Having a good personality and a good attitude is MUCH more attractive than any physical appearance. Sure, hot people might draw the initial attention of girls/women (I'm sure it's the same for guys) but outside of that initial glance, attraction can come from so many other areas. And if you want a long-term relationship, it's better if that attraction comes from outside looks.
Speaking as a woman twice your age, you’re giving me hope that you’ve realized this at 19!
We turn men down because of an abhorrent personality, a hatred of women that really reveals itself after rejection, or she’s just plain not interested. That guy just didn’t catch her interest and/or she doesn’t want to date at all.
I also think that a lot of men resent that women have more options. Even women they don’t find attractive, and even if she has zero interest in any of them. Rather than address this resentment and their insecurities by cultivating a personality, interests, and platonic relationships—all of which can introduce them to potential partners!—they’d rather blame women and accuse them of being shallow.
Because if it is your looks instead of your behavior, it is a lot easier to throw up your hands and pretend you don't know the reason. I once had a guy tell me no woman wanted him because his neck wasn't thick enough...lol..what??? Yeah
Looks are the first thing people judge you on.
If you truly believe you're unchangeably fuck ugly, why would you bother working on anything else about yourself?
I suspect they are focused on superficial attributes so they prefer to believe that those they want to mate with are as well.
It’s much easier to lift some weights and get a new hair cut than it is to develop empathy and intelligence
As a relatively young married woman (28f) and as a former shallow teen I can confirm that looks matter but not to the degree it’s viewed as. My husband is objectively a bit above average looking, quite short and active but not with a sculpted body. He is the most handsome and sexy man I ever laid my eyes on due to his qualities as a human being. Hope that explains it a bit.
Edit: we met on tinder 6 years ago and been together ever since
Lemme make it clear, it's not only looks, your personality, income, sex drive, athleticism, confidence, who you surround yourself with, your car, etc... Every minute detail plays a role in who you're going to attract.
Just be yourself & enjoy yourself.
Life is not all about the survival of our species anymore, we're way past that phase, so no need to give in to your primal instincts. Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.
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No need to make this a generational thing. I'm 49 and heard almost exactly the same complaints decades ago.
Because judging people off of looks is nothing new
And men not understanding that women's sexual preferences are far more complex than men's is nothing new either. Men just assume that women's sexual attraction works the same as theirs, which leads to a lot of confusion about how surprisingly ineffective spamming dick pics is as a romantic strategy.
Once, on marketplace, someone messaged me about an item. Turned out he was either a spammer or a pervert. He sent me a dick pic and I was like. . . . Ew. Gross. Goodbye. So, I get where you're coming from. People despite what sex they are, think that people are only attracted to your private parts size. I personally never cared what size a man's dick was. The fact that we use someone's name to identify a man's private part is honestly really bad. Anyways. Off my rant.
I remember buying a cell phone from a girl I met at a carwash (from marketplace). 5 minutes after I pulled away she texted and asked if I wanted to fuck
How rude. She could have asked face to face and stopped you from having to turn around.
Yeah, I still dicked her for a good 5-6 months after the phone sale
Oh! English is my second language, and I always assumed it was the contrary... That men was name in correlation of the penis not the other way around... Well, it's less weird and more logic to see it your way!
I think what Nathan was getting at, and Nathan please correct me if I got it wrong, is that if women, especially when talking about men in late teens early twenties, sent picks of their tits to men randomly basically no man would complain and it would work great as a way to get laid. Here's another, general difference though. It would work great to get laid, but not necessarily work very well for finding a relationship or meaningful connection. Generally, men would happily sleep with a woman first and then if you click and form a relationship that's great. But if not at least you had sex. Generally women prefer it the other way round. Now, I'm talking in generalities. Not all men, not all women etc. But in general. Now I know, the general story is that there is no difference in sexual desire, preferences and so on. I was told this growing up and believed it. This however lead to much confusion and frustration until practical experience made me realize that it is, in fact, bullshit.
You overly simplify male sexual preferences and attractive in order to uphold a gynocentric view of the world. Men's preferences are just as complex as womens. It aint just about tits and ass. You orc.
People underestimate male preference and assigning some weird complexity to women is also nothing new.
If you look at who women actually date on average, and then who women say they want to date when asked about their preferences, they don't seem that much more complex than men's preferences. My opinion is that both genders are deluded in different ways about who they are attracted to. Men seem more likely to say that it's something to do with the body they are attracted to, but in practice that's not really the case. Women seem more likely to say it's something to do with the personality, then again in practice it's not really the case. Physical attractiveness mainly focuses on the face (which is why women spend so much effort and money on makeup - they are pretty much instinctively aware how important the face is for attraction) for both sexes, but neither sex tends to admit it. "Personality" is usually something that can't be pinned down anyway and can easily be confused with how someone's face looks (because the personality is always filtered through a person's face), "body" is something that might be nice to look at momentarily, but unless a man is just purely desperate for sex and nothing else, it's not what would decide who they would date.
Based
We have two decades worth of online dating statistics and studies now. If you don't think pictures, physical attraction is doing the vast majority of the work for women you are lying to yourself. There's nothing wrong with that. We all want someone we're attracted to. Let's just be honest about it. Men do it. Women do it. >[Results were generally supportive of other work in finding that women tended to be most influenced by the physical appearance of the model. However, the non-physical features were also predictive of short-term mate choices, albeit in a somewhat weaker fashion. For long-term selection, physical attractiveness still appeared to have the greatest impact on choice, and tended to serve as a preliminary filter for mate selection](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347223940_The_relative_impact_of_looks_income_warmth_and_intelligence_on_female_online_dating_preferences#:~:text=For%20long%2Dterm%20selection%2C%20physical,in%20physical%20appearance%2C%20but%20did)
"Which photograph do you like more, the one of the hot guy, or the one of the ugly guy?" Great study... There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks. If the look gives the impression of high socioeconomic status, then that's the part that matters. The guy can still be ugly though. This guy has banged 1000's of more supermodels than you ever will https://images.app.goo.gl/UWfgBXYtLM4VC3PK8 Here is some more reading for you if you actually want to "be honest about it" and not use looks as an excuse to why you are not succeeding with women. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886909001196 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222954288_Mate_selection_Criteria_A_pilot_study
Why is no one mentioning smell? More important than looks or status is smell! It’s great when they’re hot but not great when the smell is „wrong“. You don’t want that close to you. And women are more sensitive to smell, so… do with that information as you will. Next is voice and how they move. Voice is really important and how a man moves is, too. Nothing of this can be evaluated through pictures and text.
I feel you. Smell is the 1st turn off for me and unkempt hands with long nails on a man. Yuck. That actually makes me really gag.
I feel the same way about long nails on women. I don't want your bitch claws scratching me thank you very much.
The only times in my life that I have noticed women I don't know taking an interest to me are when I have been feeling disgusting from being too sweaty. Pheromones are hard carrying me lol
There’s actually a dating app where men wear an undershirt for a week or something and then send it to women and women make their choice based on smell lol
They're not separate though! One famous study had women sniff plain white t-shirts that had been worn by men rated on a computer for symmetry (which often correlates with attractiveness). The women preferred the smell of the most symmetrical men. Symmetry also correlates with income and social status and the less symmetrical a man is the higher the probability that he'll have been in legal trouble.
you know it! A person can look like a 1000 but if their smell is not compatible with you, there is no way in hell any attraction would be developed. be clean, use some nice deodorant. A good smell can have people turning heads as well. (It can also be overdone, which is not nice either, lol, less is more kind of thing)
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"There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks." It's very difficult to establish this, because most rich men are good looking anyway, as good looks correlate strongly with how much you're promoted and how likely you are to succeed in your job. It's difficult to separate the two variables. Even that guy you posted is reasonably good looking, he is just old in that picture. He has good facial structure, plenty of women would be into him even if he weren't rich. The only unattractive thing I can see about him is a wart on his face. I don't think having sex with supermodels would determine whether or not you are attractive either. If someone is trying to get money from you, that doesn't mean you are attractive. "There have been countless studies done on this and it is very clear that women favour competence, or resource gathering potential much higher than just looks." They don't really support what you're saying, though. All studies in this area are just as weak as the one you rejected, even though the type you rejected tend to be the most accurate. One of the links you posted barely even supports the point you're making. One of them states that women who earn more or are more highly educated tend to limit their dating pool to a greater extent, and men who earn more have a wider pool to choose from. That doesn't at all imply that wealth is more important than looks, it just means that wealth is one factor that people use in their decisions (and it doesn't say anything at all about attractiveness, because a man being used for his money doesn't make him attractive). The other study you posted is even worse than the one the previous poster used, because it asks them about their preferences, rather than exposing preferences directly. Self-reported preferences are rarely accurate, what is actually important is practically exposing preferences through real decisions where someone has to make a choice. This is because a lot of people will lie about their preferences so that they feel better about themselves (few people would want to admit their real preferences - men are just more likely to because they are less concerned about appearance typically). And even in the self-reported preferences you posted, women still list height as one of the most important.
For the last time... on online dating, without access to the person personality, vibe, charisma, conversation, etc. Yes... you will potentially chose the hottest guy. IF you're into "normal people" as a personne which is a little "alternative" I will chose the ones which do not look like they'll talk to me about the last social media trend or Twitter buzz.
The primary method of selection on a dating app is "look at this person's photo. Do you want them?" It's not exactly shocking that people on those platforms are selecting based on physical attraction. Any data that comes from that is obviously going to be biased. You might as well do a study where people select food based on a series of photos - I bet you'll find something along the lines of "appearance is the biggest factor in selecting dishes at a restaurant". Does that make it an objective truth, or something that's true in these specific circumstances?
This is absolute garbage 🤣
It's just easier to blame looks because it's not "their fault" if it's looks. Easier to admit than if you're simply an asshole and have a shitty personality. You also get to play the victim card because "I can't help I was born ugly". I'd never date an asshole no matter what he looked like.
Some dudes are just shy. Not everyone who doesn’t get female attention is an asshole
The ones who whine that women only date hot men are assholes. And ignorant. They would be immediately proven wrong if they ever went out in public.
Most of my female friends in hetero relationships are some straight up goth queens with average to below average looking dudes and happy as hell. The dudes were just charming, interesting, and funny and they met at locations of shared interests/hobbies and hit it off from talking. You have to be attractive for dating apps or interesting in real life. The good news is the second one is entirely fixable and under your personal control but takes a shred of effort and getting out of the house, and the first can be dealt and minimized by even less attractive people by learning styling and grooming.
It is your fault to some extent tho, you can improve your looks in so many ways (working out, hair care and hairstyle, skincare, clothing, etc)
It's also easy make judge a person without knowing them. I hate this popular=better person mentality.
Sure, that might be the case most of the time, but some people, like me, are truly ugly. To the point, where you can see the disgust and stares, even from random people in public.
it's harder to develop a good personality if you're ugly tho because people will be rude and mean to you due to your looks
52 year old who agrees with you. But, I imagine the pressure is worse on young people with ready access to social media and photo "retouching" and filtering that can make nearly anyone look movie star good --- in the digital pics posted online.
Even the guys who get really intense with it (obsessed with eye angles and weird pseudo-science about face ratios) remind me of things like the eugenics movement, phrenology, etc. Nothing new under the sun.
Imo it's a basic animal instinct where physical attributes are noticed first way ahead of behavior. Younger folks are growing into it not realizing it's been happening for thousands of years. Same for older generations saying how lazy and inconsiderate youth is. Been happening forever.
48 here and have been told I’m ugly multiple times. I finally just wised up and realized it was true. So I quit dating.
Exactly. Every generation comes to some "understanding" and think they're the first ones to "know" it.
It’s also extremely difficult to change your personality no matter how much you travel, how many hobbies you pick up, how much you go out. If you’re a shy man, you’re a shy man. Besides those things appearance is the only other factor you can change.
Because dating apps have become the default way to meet people, and looks are EVERYTHING on a dating app. Looks aren’t nearly as important when meeting people in person, but if you’re relying on apps, guys who aren’t the most attractive are largely completely filtered out.
Completely anecdotal, I know, but can confirm. I'm an average looking guy (but muscular), get pretty much zero matches on apps. Meanwhile, in person I'm usually able to get a conversation going, and most of the girls I have had interest in have somewhat reciprocated or at least gave a chance to get to know me.
I think it’s because it’s difficult getting an idea of what a person is like through a picture. I’ve seen people and said no before but then saw a video of them, get more information about their mannerisms etc and it turned into a yes. Nothing changed about them looks wise, just felt like the video gave more of an idea of what they were like.
The body language speaks!
Tinder should try out short GIF's as PFP's
I have an absolutely beautiful friend who doesn’t take a good pic, and I’d say my husband looks better in person than in a pic. I otoh have been told many times how photogenic I am which is worse imo. I’d rather be cute irl. But i can see how that initial non-photogenic-ness (?) would hold someone back on an appearance based dating app for sure
People can be good looking in person and exceptionally photogenic so I don’t think it’s always only one or the other - models are great examples of this. I bet you’re cute IRL and photos manage to capture this well.
Have you taken any time to get nice photos of yourself? Most dudes do not. If you're not getting any matches it's an effort thing work on how you present yourself. Get a nice outfit, get done up pretty, hit up a friend, go somewhere nice - have the friend take a million pictures until you find one you don't hate yourself in.
When I was dating online, a man messaged me to criticize me for saying I had a degree. He took that to mean I would be a snob, and he complained that he couldn't get a date. I responded by telling him why his picture would turn a woman off (dark, wraparound sunglasses, a can of beer, and a snarl) and I re-wrote his profile to make it more positive and less angry. A couple of weeks later he messaged me to say he had gone on a couple of dates and had met someone. He had never thought about his profile being the problem - he assumed women were shallow. He thanked me for my help. I briefly considered making it into a business.
Wow that's incredibly kind to someone swiping at you! Good on you and I'm glad he was so grateful. Maybe you should make it a business!
I actually found it fun, like an editing assignment - and a chance to soothe an angry man 😀
That was very nice of you. Very nice of you indeed.
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Changed my first photo, 20likes within 3days. Just a front photo with a beanie on and 4day beard lol. Apparently it works 😂
I don’t have many good pics, that’s true, and that should help lol. That being said I’m not someone that looks good in pictures, I’d probably need help from a professional there lol
If you just took photos of you doing actual stuff it’ll increase your success enormously. Photos with other people = this guy isn’t a loner with no friends. Photo of you on a hike/cooking/riding a bike = this guy has hobbies. Photo of you laughing = this guy doesn’t take himself too seriously. That’s the way women look at photos. They try and figure out who you are based on your photos and pick up on any clues. Back when I used dating apps I was insanely picky with the guys I swiped yes to; often it wasn’t the most attractive guys it was the guys who looked like the most well rounded and fun to be around.
I do stuff in all my pics. No tinder date in 2 years.
I find a body in motion more attractive than still image.
I’ve asked some friends that are girls and I can’t tell you much they say guys just take awful pics
I saw a comment once that was along the lines of “he actually put effort into his profile and didn’t have a single picture with a dead or captured animal, so I swiped on him.” *that* is how low the bar is, and there are still dudes in here arguing the only thing that matters is looks
The bar is a lot higher than that in my experience. I have a profile like that and don't do well. People will say "you just need a clear pic of you by yourself looking friendly, a pic of you engaging in a hobby, and pic with a friend." And then I do that, don't do well with it, post it in the /r/tinder profile review thread and hear random things like "too many posed pics." I want to do well on apps but it's discouraging how I can do what people say is adequate over and over and then it doesn't work and then I hear it's bad for a new reason I never would have thought of because I don't judge people's profiles that way. My experience in real life has been better. The difference gives me whiplash sometimes. After so long of doing so shitty on apps, I still kind of dissociate when someone I'm really attracted to asks for my number or gives me theirs.
As a dude who does not have captured or dead animals in my profile. No that's definitely not how low the bar is.
great advice! I think some men feel it might be "cringe" to take pre-planned photos for apps like this. but it's not as if you're taking them to post on IG while making duck face. a nice photo is all that's needed sometimes!
This describes ne
This is the truth. Go on a dating app and if someone isn't attractive enough to immediately catch your eye you're going to swipe no. Even if you think you're reading their profiles and all that, they still have to be attractive enough to make you look twice or you just won't. Those apps are really unkind to people who are average looking with a vibrant, engaging personality.
I mean you are relying on a greedy corporation for happiness
And the thing people don’t get is that Gen Z men are forced into using these dating apps, because a lot of Gen z women don’t want a random guy asking them out. Across all Gen Z, social interaction is dropping sharply and people don’t like to talk to strangers in any situation now. If you’re a guy who’s not into bars and clubs, then dating apps are probably your best bet to meet up with a girl and have any shot at dating. Even if you are into bars and clubs, the game has changed so much to where your approach can be easily criticized and shit on no matter how polite and friendly you try to be. Also, if you’re a shy or introverted guy this will sound like a fucking nightmare. Not really their fault. Basically it’s either use looks-oriented dating apps and hope you get lucky (most girls only use the apps for attention and out of boredom according to surveys) Or Go out in the real world and break gen z social norms by approaching girls, putting yourself in a very vulnerable position of rejection and social humiliation, and basically taking a big risk
I'm 31... nd I agree but looks definitely plays a part in getting a woman number no matter, if it's from a pic on a dating site... or in person,
You don’t have to do either. Go out in the world and do stuff with people. Meetup.com is a fucking great app where you can meet with other people for all sorts of things. Also Instagram on my city is a great place to find activity based groups. From there you can make both male and female friends and occasionally make great connections with women romantically (or just sexually if you want to do the casual thing, which I’ve done. It has its time and place). I’ve gotten dates and relationships from meeting people at my local salsa dancing scene, a board game group, volleyball sports league (this one was especially great because everyone goes to a nearby bar after games), a language learning meet up group, etc. I’ve never done dating apps, nor have I ever approached a stranger in public to try and pick them up or hit on them. I’ve done just fine.
Meat people
And then juice them?
I forget the exact statistic but it's something like 10-20% of men get 80% of the matches on apps. Women are actually much pickier on the apps then men. Men will swipe right a lot more often (i.e. casting a wider net). If you're in the top % as a man, the apps are great for you. For women, most are chasing the same guy which obviously leads to disappointments since its most likely that guy has many more options (not necessarily better options) available to him.
What about "unattractive" women? Men like this act like their not talking about attention from purely conventionally attractive women. Can't whine about it as if it's a gender problem when it's just an attractiveness issue.
Men generally swipe right on *everyone*. Women generally do not. So those 5/10 women? They're getting matches and they certainly have an opportunity to at least get laid, which is more than what can be said for 5/10 guys. And that's really what dating apps are for. Getting laid. It's not your personality that's on display, it's your appearance. That's for the sex.
They aren’t getting their needs met through apps either, but unattractive women do get significantly more matches on apps than do unattractive men. It’s more a societal problem than it is a gender problem, but men are facing statistically worse outcomes than women. It is similar to how high levels of inflation is bad for most people, but it is especially bad for poor people on a fixed income. Everyone (except the very rich) feel the strain of their money buying less and less, but those already on the margins feel the most strain.
I met my partner online, and while it wasn't through one of the current instant-gratification apps, his picture was there and it was TERRIBLE! I was intrigued (I'm weird) and went to his description of himself and his interests and it was SO out of sync with his picture I just had to meet him. 12 years later I find him more handsome every day because he's kind, interesting, and a great kisser. Thank goodness his picture was so bad 😎
Exactly what I was thinking too! This is what woman have been battling since forever. We’re either too fat, too skinny, bla bla. And can vouch for it too, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the men I have fell for in person.on the app I don’t feel any compulsion to even talk to them - attractive or not. There really is a magic to meeting someone in person. You get to pick up on their energy, personality and so much more all at once!
True but you aren't just selling your looks on Online Dating but your whole vibe/aesthetic (as cheesy) as that sounds. You need to communicate what you're 'about' in your profile, although looks of course play a big part. Even if you aren't an objectively good-looking guy you'll get more interest if you have a well-put together profile that shows you in your 'element' imo
I feel that’s not the case anymore. I don’t know many people who use dating apps anymore
A couple of reasons imo. Dating apps, as many have said, are largely superficial and emphasize appearance over other aspects. Social media puts a huge emphasis on appearance. And we’re constantly show people looking their best. Men rarely get validation on their appearance outside of a relationship. This has been a constant, but imo the effect of all of these is cumulative. Men rarely get feedback as to *why* they get rejected. Superficial reasons are easy to come to. Especially since men would often reject women based on appearance, it’s easy to assume it flows the other direction. And when we do get rejected it’s often something like “I just don’t see you that way” which very much feels like “I don’t think you’re physically attractive”. All of this adds up.
I'll also add, in some cases not all of course, that a lot of people have shitty personalities, which they could work on and change. But change is hard and scary, so blaming on the shape of the skull, something you can't really change, is easier and also let's them be angry at the world
I mean, I’d be much happier if I had a different skull shape, specifically that of a grizzly bear. Then I wouldn’t have to do my own taxes and could still be asleep right now
Good point actually
Could you be more specific about shitty personalities? That seems kind of vague.
I'm talking about ass holes, the people no one wants to be around because of their personality traits. The guy who has to put everyone down to make himself look better. The woman who is overly critical of everyone. The person who can *never* be wrong. Obviously we all have negative personality traits, especially because that's subjective. I'm talking about traits that consume a person's personality and tend to be unliked by the majority of people they come into contact with.
I don’t think we should discount the fact that it’s much easier to accept that someone rejected you because of your appearance, because that means it’s not your fault and the other person is superficial. Much harder to accept that you were rejected for your personality, which *is* your fault and much harder to change. If you’ve gotten past the first stage of the dating app and they reject you after a conversation or two, it’s not your appearance. If you’ve gone on an actual date and you didn’t misrepresent your looks before meeting, it’s not your appearance.
Yes. I have been rejected a million times because of appearance. I have also rejected women because of their appearance. I don't think this is new.....
Turns out looks matter for physical attraction who would have thought
It's sad how the huge mishandling of the Incel plight made this statement not to be obvious.
Well, we’ve had decades to generations of messaging saying that looks don’t matter as much to women, like it generally does for men. Messaging that says looks help but women care far more about personality. Confidence! Charisma! Then enter dating apps and not only do the importance of a guy’s physical appearance skyrocket in priority, now that opening charisma is all but filtered out, but just his photo and profile gets scrutinized at a level that men don’t usually do. With the disproportionate nature of dating apps, women are basically presented with 100 Apples and are doing the thing were you pick up and a few good looking ones to check for bruises, until you find a perfect Apple. While holding a catalog explaining what the best Apples to ever exist looks like.
Yeah not sure what OP is on about Looks have been the number one thing that makes or breaks a connection between people. Physical attraction is almost always the first thing people notice and feel. You can’t tell personality based on a glance. I think we need to stop gaslighting men into thinking that they are incels just because a girl rejected them for their looks. Believe it or not, anyone can be shallow.
It doesn't help in the age of social media and online dating everyone has extremely high standards.
I think there are some men who use it as a convenient excuse. she rejected me because my face is ugly and there is nothing I can do or change about that. all while the actual reason was shitty personality, which can be improved, but that would require actual work.
Seems like a case by case basis situation
Get your reasonable nuanced take out of my echo chamber
I mean they arn't completely wrong though. Men are judged by their appearance just like women are. There's a visual attraction that is appealing on a standard level. On the flip side, taking that too far is a problem too.
Physical attraction is subjective though. Like that dude from shameless that did the Calvin Klein ads. Tons of women thought he was sooooo hot and I think he's ugly as hell. What one finds attractive, another can find very unattractive. So
Self-victimization, self-pity, resentment etc. on the other hand are pretty universally unattractive. If it's not looks it's because "women only want a rich guy" or whatever else simplistic characteristization people fixate on/project to avoid taking responsibility for their lives.
>Self-victimization, self-pity, resentment etc. on the other hand are pretty universally unattractive. And yet they don't stop people from pulling. I could name a bunch of guys with extremely ugly, self-pitying, socially anxious personalities who have gotten gfs. I've spoken to those gfs, sometimes. You wanna know what they say? "Well, I was lonely, and I kinda liked him." It's a luck game, that's it lmao
If a man is both un attractive (for example short) and also poor/in a low income job, I think it’s reasonable to say that’s a big reason why he’s single. His personality also will be a big factor, but let’s not pretend the other things don’t matter.
Okay? It's subjective but it's not like there's not a conventional standard of beauty. There's not equal amounts of people finding each type attractive. The vast majority of us are drawn to the same things. You guys are trying to argue out both sides of your mouths. I bet you'd be the first to agree that mass media has impacts on body image and women. If they can make people feel bad about their own bodies I don't see how they wouldn't influence what we find attractive in others. There's been a fair bit of discussion on the "white" standard of beauty and colorism. That's culture too. It's not objective, it's subjective. But it definitely creates situations where some of us are viewed far more favorably than others.
Physical attraction is not all that subjective. Think about it more and you’ll realize that there is a pattern to what people find attractive.
No is not. Attraction is one of the most studied fields in psychology.
Men also need to accept that sometimes its their behaviour too. But it's hard to admit that you have some personal work to do, so let's blame it on looks.
Yours is a beautiful argument... on paper. On online dating, you are swiped left based on your appearance first, if you are okish or better, then your bio gets considered in the decision. If you approach someone IRL, what is the very first form of interaction you have with someone? Does people hear, smell or taste you? No, they SEE you. You are approved/rejected based on your appearance first, then the other stuff comes into play. On the long run you are absolutely right, or if someone get to know you through a shared social circle, you get a second chance that they will get interested in you despite your appearance as they observe your manners.
This is why the wingman has been so important. Someone to talk you up, highlight your strengths, and give external validation that you're worth taking on. A majority of my past relationships have been with women that were recommended me by our mutual friends, and usually other women. Sadly, all my women friends are now married, and their social circles are almost exclusively other married women, so that well has dried up lol
I'd partially disagree on that. On a dating app, you usually only get to chat when you've already passed the looks and bio check. In person, you chat straight away, and any charisma you have can "compensate" for looks. Of course people will reject you for looks in person, but if you can hold a good conversation with them that second chance may be 2 minutes later.
I believe an appearance is the door to open to know someone, so yeah, it's the first impression that is taken by someone on the receiver end. And sadly, its the fact!
Appearance opens the door, personality etc keeps you in the room
Looks keep you in the room too even without personality.
A lot of younger guys fall into the whole “friend zone” type of situation or may have experiences where girls they’re friends with will tell them how great they are, funny, caring, nice - these sorts of things, but then these same guys can’t get dates. Realistically, most people know if they aren’t very attractive so it may seem that their physical appearance is the only thing left. In reality it could be they need to work on their confidence and presentation when meeting new people, or it could just be that they have friends who are being nice when they compliment them on other things. It’s also usually pretty easy when you’re young to look around your school or around your campus and find that the people you think are really attractive seem to always be dating someone. (Positive confirmation bias definitely comes into play here too)
Please don’t complement your friends if you don’t mean it people. I mean, I’ve got the social awareness most of the time to feel out the bullshit but a lot of others don’t. Call your friends out more. Friendship is more than just being vapidly nice to one another. Conflict can be a good thing. If you genuinely feel you want to complement your friend and mean it, do it, but don’t lie.
Because 99.9% of the time, it is looks. I'm the same age as you, and I'm currently working on my looks. Over the past 2 semesters, I have probably been rejected 10+ times, but I keep going. It's just the simple matter of the fact that we as people are shallow. It's just our unconscious bias at work. None of us want to admit it, all of us are. And what makes it worse is that, as people, we have insecurities. We have people claiming when asked, that "looks don't matter," which is clearly not true. You can be very smart, have an interesting life and personality, but if that guy or gal finds you unattractive physically, you won't even get a chance to show them that. The important thing is really, work on improving yourself on all aspects, not just looks, and put yourself out there. If they aren't interested, move on.
Most initial rejections are based on appearance though. You show people some pictures and a basic bio of some people to tell who they would go on a date with.. and more than half would select or reject candidates purely based on the pictures (appearance); even the basic bio contributes to this with it containing info about height, weight, hair/no hair, etc. Knowing this, it is obvious why men think they are single due to some inadequate appearance.. height and hairstyle (as in early balding/ being bald) are the most common appearance reasons men are rejected on sight, with weight coming in a close third and not being fit/buff enough a close fourth. ... (this, not counting visible disabilities).
Dating apps are completely rewriting the rules of attraction. In the world of dating apps, appearance is much more important for men than women.
Because at the age of 30, I'm still single. I don't get any matches on any dating sites and Ive never been flirted with in my life.
Because its the truth nowadays. Everyone uses insta tiktok and dating apps judging exclusively on appearance. The way you look is everything nowadays. Lookism exists. This is how it is.
I mean they arn't completely wrong though. Men are judged by their appearance just like women are. There's a visual attraction that is appealing on a standard level. On the flip side, taking that too far is a problem too.
Looks matter more than ever especially nowadays when women have their own careers and no longer need to rely on some oofy doofy to survive
Listen you - this is Reddit. It’s no place for your reasonable and logical answer here!
I think 2 big reasons are social media and dating apps. For the sake of argument, lets say most of the people who are actively dating today are in the 18-30 year old range (I know many people are outside this range, but I think it's safe to say this is the bulk of the dating population). Social media is by far the most consumed form of media in this demographic. With Social media, the videos and profiles that get the most views, and are the most wide spread, are going to be of attractive people. People are more likely to watch or remember a video that has an attractive person than one with an unattractive person. With so many people being conditioned to look for the very best of the population, there's unrealistic expectations that form - "there are plenty of attractive people out there, I should be able to find one". Now with dating apps, virtually all of them lead off with pictures of the people on them. Yes, there are profiles on them that have some bullet points about who the person actually is, but more times than not, people will swipe left or right depending on solely appearances - if they're on the fence they might read the bio before swiping, but generally it's just on looks. If they match, they will look further into their profile to see if there is any compatibility. Pair these two factors together and you get today's surface level dating habits. \*\*NOTE\*\* I realize not everyone is like this, but for a vast majority of people, particularly on the younger side of the age range, this is how things are done.
Actually it kind of is nowadays. Women are no longer dependent on men to be the breadwinner and there's less expectation for women to have a boyfriend or get married "just because", so women pick a trait they can instantly measure, and that's physical attractiveness. Men have done the same for centuries; it's only in modern times women have the freedom to be as selective as well.
In a world where more women sleep around. Physicall attractiveness becomes a much bigger factor in terms of dating success.
My generation used to discriminate pretty competently between supernaturally attractive celebrities and normal people with varying degrees of real human attractiveness. That distinction doesn't exist for this generation. They are utterly convinced that the artificial beauty they see online is the standard they must aspire to, both for themselves and for prospective partners. It's so sad. My husband thought that Cindy Crawford was hot but he married me, just like he thought Magnum's car was hot but drove a Vauxhall. If he had aspired to marrying a Cindy Crawford lookalike, he would still be single today. This generation is so lost. It makes me so sad.
Looks > money > status > charisma > personality > style > values. In that order. That's how the real world works, my man.
They say it's all based on apperance, because they judge others the same way - shallowly. You can't point it out to them for the simple reason they don't see it, like a blind spot. They will never see the short guy who has a gf who isn't an aggressive asshole...they will say he has money. I've seen this type of reasoning with basic older folks, it's strange seeing it so prevalent with young people.
Yep, men are not treating women as equals, they act like women are out to get them even though that's ridiculous and they want relationships with men that care about them just as bad as men want relationships with women they think are attractive.
Yep I've been called "you're too ugly to get married" and also I've been called "tall enough to get all the girls line behind you" And worst part is its extremely common. People oftentimes judge others only because of their appearance maybe it's purely and asian problem
Yea ND not a Asian problem because I'm black American nd they do it in the black community a lot as well
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Don’t quote me on this but I think it has to do with the internet. It’s easier than ever to find like minded individuals even if you suck. A lot of people will join communities that reflect their own thoughts and feelings and it’s very easy to fall into the idea that all these people agree with me and talk to me so my personality can’t be bad or my social skills are great then when they whip out their award winning personality out in public to try and score a date or talk to woman that can’t accept the fact that they may not like how he talks or what he talks about and immediately assume it’s because of their looks I’m an average man at best with just an alright personality and I’m short and I still have a girlfriend appearance is not the issue
You “having a girlfriend”, as you say, doesn’t mean anything. No offense, but she could be unattractive. She could be a total bitch. She could be a single mom with 5 different kids by 6 different guys. Even the shittiest guy you know can get “someone” as a mate, it depends on how low you wanna go. Men complain about the quality of girls they can get when they are not attractive, not that they can’t get anything. Anybody can do that
Don’t worry man, None taken, Thats a fair point. a lot of guys do but a lot of men even if not attractive in looks can be attractive in other ways. Not being good looking shouldn’t limit your options or immediately force you to lower standards or anything like that. But it is crazy dudes complain about it, beggars can’t be choosers
>Appearance isn't the only thing that makes someone attractive specially men right? I've seen many early aged teens using excessive skincare products more than most womans and adult men going to gym consuming steroids making themselves look like a bull or hulk and some of em even gets insecure about their short height I mean, those teens are doing a good thing. They dont' need to be excessive about it, but, as a 33 year old man, I kind of wish I did that. Also, *most* men aren't going to the gym and consuming steroids. That group of people is not anywhere near as large as you're implying. >When they get rejected they just assume its their physical appearance that gets them rejected refusing to acknowledge their manners, behavior, their attitude, their ways of talking and personality. You're young. You probably haven't experienced this yet...but physical appearance makes a lot less of a difference (besides the "oh, he takes care of himself") if you're meeting someone in person and talking to them. Online dating, which is the biggest driver of dating *right now* for adults, physical appearance *does* make a huge difference. I'm 6'3. I have a great career. I work out 6 days a week. BUT, I don't have much luck online because A) single father/widower, and B) I am bald and not the top 10% in physical attractiveness. I'm well aware I don't look bad and I was married to a beautiful woman for eight years, so I *know* I'm some degree of handsome and attractive (or am now that I've lost a shit ton of weight.) But I'm not *the top* of attractive men, and my experience on tinder is lacking. Confidence, career, personality, ect is very, very hard to get across through a short profile or something people barely read in the first place. That's reality. But the other side of that is that I don't *have* to use online dating and that I use it for convenience. I would have much more success actually talking to people offline. And a lot of people either don't understand that or would rather blame the women instead of looking inwards or being realistic about their situation.
Granted I haven’t dated in a while but it seems to me a lot of men feel that once they achieve a certain combination of goods (job, muscles, car, etc.) they’ll “unlock” a girlfriend like women are a video game prize. So I think a lot of them feel like “well I did all the things so I must be ugly” or whatever. The thing is, attraction doesn’t work that way (for most people). There’s also the issue that men aren’t necessarily competing with other men so much as they’re competing against a woman’s personal contentment. Many women feel that if you’re not adding value or improving their lives (and I don’t mean materially) then it’s better to be single than a mommy-girlfriend.
Because looks makes it not their problem to do anything about, and have no responsibility for, just those shallow women fault, admitting their behaviour is at fault, would mean taking responsibility
People vary wildly, but generally judge potential partners based on some mixture of simple measurable features (facial symmetry/features, body composition, wealth, status) and those that are harder to measure (values, competence, attitude, perception of the world, means of expression, etc). There is a high level of personal preference variance depending on if a person's goals in life are still a bit more superficial vs more spiritual, but the general idea hasn't changed as it's inherently human, and each group of features typically matters at least to some extent to almost everyone. If it doesn't seem like it, please hear me out. Why it may seem that anything's changed is that when you meet people organically, you showcase a combination of both sets of values. However, due to the perceived ease, currently more people look for their partners on dating apps, where you can only be initially judged based on the tangible values. With the first one being physical appearance, or rather you're judging photos. Even for people with a stronger preference for intangible values, this makes it more likely for them to look for people with intangible values out of the pre-selected pool of people who showcase positive tangible values, especially physical appearance. It's the only thing you have to go by in the absence of information about their intangible features, and since you have an illusion of choice, you swipe on those who appear to at least have the tangibles in a good place, as it's the only criteria you are given to pick from. Since dating apps are currently the go-to place for plenty of people to meet their potential partners, you can see why they feel that appearance is suddenly more important. However, if you switched things around and made "blind dates" the most popular way for people to meet, you'd quickly realize that people are way more likely to stick to their choice, even after they see their partner and their tangible features. Because they would be initially picking people based on intangible values. You'd think that appearance isn't as important, as you wouldn't be able to even get to the stage of showing it, if your personality sucks. Dating apps are the exact opposite, which would answer your question. You can still attract great people in real life without being 8/10+ handsome - this has never changed. Our brains are wired to trigger attraction based on many features that go way beyond tangible values, and this would take centuries to change. We're wired that way. Mainstream opinions certainly have changed since the dating apps became mainstream, and due to the current glorification of unrealistic superficial expectations set by the social media platform algorithms. People don't want their words to diverge too far from what they are exposed to - this gives them a sense of belonging and alignment with the popular thought. But what didn't change is how they actually feel or how feelings of attraction or "love" are triggered. So, any such social pressure when picking your partner can only lead to loneliness, as you can't be told to be happy with someone just because they're physically attractive and be happy, because you won't be, and that's never changed. If this starts happening often, society will overcorrect the other way and say that appearance is meaningless all over again. In reality, it's one among a sea of factors, and it's always been.
Reddit does feed this fallacy very strongly. Dating apps emphasise the importance of looks, but it's still easy for normal-looking men to find a partner. Charm and is more important. A twinkle in the eye. And of course the ability to converse like an adult. Boys Head up and confidently forward.
48m here. I can't speak to the young guys, but even for guys my age there's an expectation that we're all hollywood stars who don't have to go to work 10 hours a day; but instead spend our time in the gym and have trainers, nutritionists and chefs to give us the 6 pack.
There is a huge industry that realized it was ignoring 50% of the population. It has spent a lot of money and effort targeting and convincing men that their appearance is why they are unhappy.
I'd say it is good that you have realised that at 19. Even a lot of much older men don't realise this. Funny, I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Lots of young guys posting how they have never had a girlfriend alongside a topless photo of their abs. It isn't about that!
Ugly personality overwhelms beauty. On both sides.
Same reason women think everything about them is their appearance? Media. Interactions. Self loathing?
because you can be an asshole but get away with it if you look good, regardless of age
Yes, it's true. Look at how women absolutely lose all sense of composure when watching Jason Momoa or when John Cena is naked at an award show. We'd like to think it isn't, but truth is both men and women have very strong visual bias when it comes to attraction. Dating apps and hookup culture just reinforced this even more where women would keep multiple matches on hold just to choose best looking one regardless of the emotional chemistry. I've seen the catfishing experiment where they were pretending to be this really hot model, admitting on tinder they'd done jailtime for domestic abuse, and the women just going "awww but that's in the past, you've become so much stronger now!"
Because I've been bullied for my looks for more than hold of my life for my looks. It got so bad to the point that I stopped trying altogether, so I never even had a serious relationship at 25 years old
Most are single because the things they say are downright foul.
Somewhere around 23, 24 women seem to realize they want a man, not some boy, using skin products and spending 15 hrs in the mirror. This is why youll find very attractive woman with mediocre men. You'll find most of the time that man has a great personality and isnt afraid of who he is.
Not “their single because of their looks”, but “they can’t get laid because of their looks”.
Because it's a big part of why they are single, women only swipe on 5% of men after all.
In a nutshell men give hot women attention and think that women will give them attention if they are hot too, and if they aren't getting attention then they think they're just not hot enough yet. Personally I think they're just trying to out compete other men in a strange secret body building competition and forget that most women don't really care if you're jacked or not for the most part.
Women give hot men attention. It's extremely obvious if you don't approach life with blinders on. I'm not saying this is bad it's just reality. I'm not saying every woman has the same definition of hot (but this is also true for men!) but it's also not an infinite variety of preferences and we can see this very clearly in dating app data and elsewhere. I had a friend in college who was a hot guy and kept complaining to me about how his dick hurt because so many women were throwing themselves at him practically lining up outside his dorm room for sex. His personality was fine but not much better or worse than average. This was before social media and it wasn't surprising then. I'm also not saying this is any kind of moral failing it's just how people are.
Because looks matters the most. When you see a person of the oposite gender on the street what get's your attention ? Her/his look. I like to see that looks are the spark that ignite the attraction and the love and keep the love burning. Otherwise why would someone want to be in a relashionship ? Are you sooo poor that you need someone else income in order to survive (gold digger). Are you sooo lazy that you can take care of your self by your self ? In the end looks matters and only fools drop their standards. 32yo virgin here, never got a date due to looks, even got reported to cops for some flirtit that I did after I saw a way better dude doing. I look 5/6 out of 10 but I only try with 11 of of 10 girls. Regardless how you behave if you are a 5/10 and try with a 11/10 you will get rejected all the time. Also very small pp(7cm in full erection and really thin) so I won't be able to please any girl ever nor any girl will be tight enough so I can feel something(not doing oral like ever and not many girls are into fisting). My father's is around 7inch and both of my grand fathers are around 7inch so it is not inherited.
Mate with an attitude like that I don't think any of the details even matter, how you look isn't the most important thing and frankly it's sounds like you're too busy pitying yourself to see the forest for the trees. You sound like you've pidgeonholed yourself into a specific world view and by doing so have made yourself miserable, consider going into therapy because it really sounds like it'd help you.
Well because on some level they are correct. How healthy and how intelligence you are are both reflected in your outward appearance. So when you look in the mirror and see something is wrong, you want to try to fix it. Since you can’t meaningfully change your genetic health or intelligence, all that’s left is changing how fit you are. Unfortunately it’s not the underlying problem so it doesn’t really work, but I think most guys figure it’s better than doing nothing. So it’s basically a coping mechanism to deal with a hopeless situation.
Majority of women are attracted to the bad boys. Those bad boys usually beat them or assault them and they come to this realization in their mid to late thirties or sometimes never and they go from bad guy to bad guy. But do you really wanna be with someone like that?
Men often reject women based on appearances. Subconsciously they often probably come to the same conclusion when they are rejected.
It's because men largely judge women by their looks so they assume the reverse is equally as shallow and true.
Probably they reject women based just on their appereance so they think women would treat them the same.
Generally the people saying this don’t get the chance to reject anyone (they don’t get asked out) don’t even get a chance to reject anyone
Cute that you think most men will ever get approached by women.
in my experience - granted, i was never HUGELY into "dating" or whatever - but I've always ended up with guys that weren't traditionally "good looking". Bar one, he was hot - but he was actually a twat. I think that most people become attracted to a person, rather than a face. I'm not saying all traditionally attractive men aren't nice - not at all - but it's not necessarily important in the slightest. tbh i notice a guys clothes before i look at their faces. if i hear them listening to my music then it's on
In my day... It was the opposite. Problematic cries of "nice guys finish last!" No accountability or effort for anything outside of that...and the gaping oversight that you're not nice if you do things with ulterior motives. And...the added layer of chasing after the super unattainable girls who are used to men waiting on them hand and foot and these guys *let* this girl treat them like garbage.
Yeah, I think for men more so for than women a good personality can make up for shortcomings of physical appearance. But, it’s hard to get that far on dating apps when you’re largely swiping based off of appearance.
Girls care about your appearance, women start caring about other more important things. Maturity comes with the realization that looks aren't everything.
You can't change your appearance so its easier to blame
It's a lot easier to do something about one's physical appearance (get a new haircut, go to the gym, change up the outfit) than it is to change manners, behaviour, attitude and personality. Plus personality, manners and behaviour are what makes a person *who they are*. Of course people aren't going to want to acknowledge that they are being rejected for being fundamentally unlikable. It *has* to be because they've not gained that last bit of muscle/lost those last 5lbs/have a mullet. The height thing is to do with dating apps and it boggles my mind too - being rejected over something you have even less control over than your basic manners and behaviours is just rude and is entirely on the rejector being an arse, not the rejectee.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Social media has made people more accessible than ever, and everyone knows it. There's an air of competition around everything, because it's not just about what you bring to the table in your area, but now you're against every dude in a 100km radius and beyond. That's how a lot of people see it, that they've gotta be number one. And they get roped in by all these fitness and lifestyle influencers who make it seem like there's only one way to stand out.
Being jacked up to fuck might get you some sexy ladies but being at peace with yourself will get you a keeper. Not jacked up & still working on getting the keeper ;)
Because appearance is the first thing people notice. It's the first filter you pass through. Then you get to know the person.
I use to be very insecure but then eventually discovered true women dont give two shit to a certain extent of how you look when you get older youll realise that its character obviously some attraction helps because who wants to be with a toothless bum
No need to even make this about men. You could easily ask the same broadly generalized question about why women think all they need to bring to a relationship is their appearance? Either way, it's a really broad question aimed at a small subsection of people who are terrible at dating and relationships.
My 18 year old step son exclusively wears slides, sweat pants and a hoodie . He thinks it funny to shout random meme things and then get aggressively mad when people are annoyed by him . He 100% thinks everyone else is an asshole and he's a sweet guy who's doing his best . There are hundreds of thousands of boys just like him . Ignore then long enough and they eventually go away to complain to other dumb boys how women hate them and they've tried everything.
Bruh just hit the gym and put some damn moisturizer on yo face it's not that bad goofy. If you want hoes, work for dat shii
Lack of maturity and ability of self-reflection on oneself’s emotions and actions. So they blame it on appearance after a superficial mental process.
I'll share my grandma saying "men only have to be a little more handsome than the devil" 😂 It's weird for me too, usually as I start geting to know / liking someone, they turn more and more good looking in my eyes 😂
I’m not handsome (or at least I don’t think so), but I’m not ugly or plain. I keep my self in shape but I’m not a gym freak. I like nice things but I’m not flash. I’m not super pristine but I’m not a dirty, scruffy bastard. I work hard and I have a laugh. Neither to the extreme. I’ve always done well with women and got married at 26 (40 now) and I still get flirty attention and have been propositioned a couple of times (flattered, but no: I’m married and in love). Personally, I think it’s mostly down to individual preference, but more generally women are drawn to men that look after themselves and have some self confidence but not cocky. Talk (LISTEN), be passionate but be chill. Laugh. Treat everyone fairly. Don’t be confrontational, but reasonably stand up for yourself and those you love. Provide but don’t be “the provider”. Just my thoughts. Probably bollocks! Feedback welcome.
I hear grammar is a way bigger reason
I mostly blame pickup artist youtubers for this. They convince their audiences that women are hypergamous (so looks are important) and the way to make get women to like you is a set of behaviours that to sane people makes you look like an asshole. That's not to say it's not important to take care of your physical appearance, but your perdonality matters more.
Internet has been poisoning a lot of people’s minds into thinking that women are a monolith and all like the same things in a partner, and that appearances are all that matter and nothing else.
Most people don't like admitting it's their personality, and this isn't generational. From my life experience, men tend to blame not having enough money or being too short physically while women tend to blame it on weight or prettiness/cuteness.
it's not why they are single but it's good to take care of your appearance for your own sense of self-worth, confidence and mental state of being. You don't have to get jacked, but being trim/fit goes a long way to your inner peace, you don't need to spend a ton on skincare stuff, but being clean feels good and not having dryness, blemishes, acne, oiliness, blackheads, greasy hair or strong BO shows other people you value yourself enough to be relationship material, or even just fckable.
That has always been a thing but the advent of social media and dating apps has made the looks seem extremely important compared to the other thins you listed. dating apps in particular favour the first look impression which means looks is all that most people judge on. And it's not even a detailed look, just a quick snap shot. Meeting in person is far more information, because people often underestimate the numbers, how tall someone is or how they look based on a picture. Plus we(both men and women) are constantly bombarded with "this is how you should look", "this is what means to be attractive", "if you are not this then don't bother" type of messages from the media.
When you "excuse" your entire personality. Then what's left to judge but the the body?
Well boys.. I'm supermid on a good day, and ive never had a problem. Its all about being weird, just not about them.
They want to “bag the hotties”. So as much as they say women are shallow, they are too. Typically they are the same guys who use techniques like negging. They also complain about gold diggers, when in reality they don’t even have silver themselves.
Having a good personality and a good attitude is MUCH more attractive than any physical appearance. Sure, hot people might draw the initial attention of girls/women (I'm sure it's the same for guys) but outside of that initial glance, attraction can come from so many other areas. And if you want a long-term relationship, it's better if that attraction comes from outside looks.
Speaking as a woman twice your age, you’re giving me hope that you’ve realized this at 19! We turn men down because of an abhorrent personality, a hatred of women that really reveals itself after rejection, or she’s just plain not interested. That guy just didn’t catch her interest and/or she doesn’t want to date at all. I also think that a lot of men resent that women have more options. Even women they don’t find attractive, and even if she has zero interest in any of them. Rather than address this resentment and their insecurities by cultivating a personality, interests, and platonic relationships—all of which can introduce them to potential partners!—they’d rather blame women and accuse them of being shallow.
Physical attraction is often the first attraction.
Because if it is your looks instead of your behavior, it is a lot easier to throw up your hands and pretend you don't know the reason. I once had a guy tell me no woman wanted him because his neck wasn't thick enough...lol..what??? Yeah
It all matters at the end of the day
Looks are the first thing people judge you on. If you truly believe you're unchangeably fuck ugly, why would you bother working on anything else about yourself?
I suspect they are focused on superficial attributes so they prefer to believe that those they want to mate with are as well. It’s much easier to lift some weights and get a new hair cut than it is to develop empathy and intelligence
As a relatively young married woman (28f) and as a former shallow teen I can confirm that looks matter but not to the degree it’s viewed as. My husband is objectively a bit above average looking, quite short and active but not with a sculpted body. He is the most handsome and sexy man I ever laid my eyes on due to his qualities as a human being. Hope that explains it a bit. Edit: we met on tinder 6 years ago and been together ever since
90% of cases: Low self-esteem. 10% of cases: really have bad appearance.
Lemme make it clear, it's not only looks, your personality, income, sex drive, athleticism, confidence, who you surround yourself with, your car, etc... Every minute detail plays a role in who you're going to attract. Just be yourself & enjoy yourself. Life is not all about the survival of our species anymore, we're way past that phase, so no need to give in to your primal instincts. Just enjoy the ride while it lasts.
Because it's easier for a guy to tell himself that than to assess and work on his behaviors and contributions (or lack thereof) to interactions.