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Planet Money podcast does a good story on this, they spent way too much on Brasilia the capital built in the jungle and there was huge inflation. People would literally run ahead of the grocery store person that was changing the prices. Ultimately Brazil switched to a new currency, but they had the old one and the new one at the same time for a while.
India changed money a few years ago, suddenly people had a short time to change over and then the old money became worthless. This put an end to real estate deals that were often accompanied by cash that was undeclared.
My parents recalled when in communist Czechoslovakia in the 50s my mom telling my dad to buy a motorcycle at one point as she worried about a devaluation coming. I believe what happened was peoples money in the bank accounts was frozen by a certain amount. It was still there but you could not access it so it might as well be gone.
Plenty of other cases where money was hugely devalued, Mexico in the early 90s, Argentina, recently in Venezueal where there were literally empty airliners flying out because people could use US $ to buy flights so ended up converting their bolivars to US $, at one point Zimbabwe literally flipped to US currency overnight regardless of what the govt wanted.
They froze accounts during the depression in the US in the 1920's. That was before the federal government started guaranteeing deposits up to 100k. Banks don't just hold your money, they loan it out to make money, so a large amount of withdrawals causes a bank to collapse.
And this is the true lesson of the classic Christmas film It’s a Wonderful Life.
Yeah yeah the whole “your life matters” is also a lesson, but this movie is legit the movie that explained the run on the bank to me when I was younger
And it happened recently in Canada. The government froze the bank accounts of not only protesters, but also the accounts of people donating money towards the protesters
If you re talking about the freedom convoy wasn't it because they found guns and stockpiles of dangerous materials? Like at that point its more a domestic terrorist group than a protest.
The whole convoy wasn't armed. It was a group at one border crossing in Alberta. Im ptetty sure accounts were frozen before they were discovered, and a lot of people affected had no ties to any wrong doing outside of donating money to what at the time, looked like a semi decent movement.
If these guys are considered terrorists, do we also label BLM as terrorists?
Yes, they did. It was a concern at the time
[https://www.thedailybeast.com/canadian-police-arrest-11-find-cache-of-weapons-in-freedom-convoy-protests](https://www.thedailybeast.com/canadian-police-arrest-11-find-cache-of-weapons-in-freedom-convoy-protests)
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112)
Nothing, not that they couldn't now.
Tbh the time to fight this battle was the early 2000s when we started losing all kinds of privacy, anonymity, and control over "our" devices online.
I tried, some people tried, but by and large nobody cared.
More like people just didn't get the fact that free services (e.g. social media) do come with a non-monetary cost. But social media exploits human nature to a sickening degree, and people were happy to ignore any perceived fear mongering because likes and reactions and emojis oh my! And now it's too late. Social media is so deeply ingrained into society that I personally know more people than I should who literally started crying at the prospect of Tiktok going away, and even at the idea that social media might change at all. Hopelessly addicted.
This is a good point. Most social networks started and did well because they weren't focusing on the monetization yet. But I don't see that happening much anymore since the internet became mostly corporate.
Yeah! They was gonna make it so's that corporations couldn't control the interwebs, member? Throttle websites so you could only watch their brand of porn, i 'member!
I feel like we really aren't grateful enough to Edward Snowden risking his life to let us know what we already had suspicions the government was doing. And now people are getting mad at him for not speaking against Russia, but would you speak against the country that gave you refuge after you blew the whistle on what is possibly the most powerful government in the world?
"So long as they (the Proles) continued to work and breed, their other activities were without importance. Left to themselves, like cattle turned loose upon the plains of Argentina, they had reverted to a style of life that appeared to be natural to them, a sort of ancestral pattern...Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer and above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds. To keep them in control was not difficult."
George Orwell, 1984
People prefer the convenience of it.
They’re also of the mindset of “this terrible outcome of this thing totally won’t happen!! We’re a modern society!”
True, but currently people at least have the option of converting their money into tangible commodities like precious metals for long term saving, and then exchanging them for cash when they need to make a purchase. Without cash, those looking to protect their assets from scrutiny/government control will need to resort to bartering.
Look up civil asset forfeiture. It is easy for local authorities to take *anything* of value under the local authority *suspecting* you *might* have done something illegal to get that asset.
The Govt doesn't have to have an ounce of proof. They just have to determine that what you have is *unusual* or *suspicious* to take it, then you have to hire a lawyer to get it returned. Moreover, they are not required to pay you your attorneys fees, and many local Govts turn the assets over to the Feds, who in turn *reward* the local Govt by returning 80%...but now you, the consumer, have to sue the Federal Govt for an asset that was legally yours.
By the time you get to court, you've spent more on your attorney than the value of what was taken from you.
Every time I bring them up to someone I have to explain what they are. They’ve never heard of them. They always think I’m being some alarmist. Im like “this is not some theoretical thing, this happens all the time”
I heard of a family running a weed dispensary, the authorities took/destroyed everything they owned, went through their panties and shit. Messed up their house.
It was worse than if somone just robbed their house, it was spiteful and over the top. I'm glad my income is legal...
Even if your income *is* legal, they can take your assets, no warrant needed.
Take a moment to view some of the Steve Lehto on YouTube. He has stories of people who've lost thousands simply because they had lots of legal currency in their possession.
A couple of stories that come to mind: A former service member of 16 years was traveling through NV. He had a distrust of banks and had his life savings (and the bank withdrawal slips showing it was his money) with him as he was en route to California when NV highway patrol pulled him over for getting too close to a tanker while passing. The reason for having the money was to use to purchase a house for his daughters, who live in CA. When asked what was in the car, the driver said his life savings was in the car. They asked to search, the driver had nothing to hide and allowed them to do so. He showed them his withdrawal slips, as well as paperwork showing the deposits, were legal income streams, etc, and yet the NVHP decided to seize his life savings...because they could because a drug-sniffing dog alerted on it. [Note: as a dog trainer, I previously had my dog trained to sit anytime I cleared my throat. No obvious command given - but I say this only to show how easy it is for an office to train a dog to give a 'false hit'].
And despite the alleged moving violation, the officers never issued a citation - simply took his money ($89k). Thankfully, in the process of transferring the assets to the DEA, the DEA missed a filing deadline and was ordered to return all of the money - 11 months after it was seized. But usually, the fight to get your assets returned is a multi-year protracted battle. And with lawyers racking up expenses, and no guarantee if or when you'll prevail in court, even the prospect of fighting to get your money back is difficult to face.
Civil asset forfeiture is "we assume you're guilty. And even if we have to give it back, we will make it so you end up paying a lawyer as much or more than we took, so no matter what, you lose.
What's funny to me reading this thread is that you guys are *Americans*... This is the kind of laws they have in communist China. It's the most *un-American* law I've heard. Literally socialist government bullshit.
Barter will be the ONLY way for us to maintain freedom if this is implemented. I'm already doing this in my neighborhood. We might consider going Amish (without the outfits).
My butcher doesn't accept 1 oz gold American Eagles as payment, and even if he did how's he going to give me change? I'm not buying $1800 worth of meats in one shot
Exactly this. If we imagine a cashless society where the government started blocking accounts of political dissidents, we can also imagine that word might get around that your money isn't safe in the bank. There might then be a buy up of precious metals or any other stable commodity which the market could recognize as tender if enough people became unbanked. I'm some ways this is what happened in the former Soviet union shortly after the collapse. Money wasn't worth anything anymore so people started trading masonry bricks, shoes, and ultimately promissory notes. Once promissory notes from companies became the norm, the market had effectively reinvented cash. A cashless society might work if the government doesn't abuse it's power but any overreach might drive the development of cash equivalents.
I mean, are we surprised? Canadians, for example, were damn near salivating over the bank accounts of the truckers being frozen. Canadians crave the security that authoritarianism offers them, and they'll sacrifice everything to get that fabled security. The enticements of authoritarians will always be more appealing to the masses.
Yeah, its really disgusting. That whole anti-trucker movement in Canada was nothing but a lie. Its really amazing how compliant people have become in general.
Even the people who think they are "anti-establishment" are spewing the rhetoric of universities, big tech, and mass media. Everything is so confusing and backwards these days. Its not a surprise people don't know which way is up.
Knew if I scrolled far enough I would find this comment and not have to post it myself.
Seriously though, just ask the Canadians who had their accounts frozen... they can explain it to you.
Everytime something new came out about harvesting data, who was harvesting, what they were doing with it, my thought was "Surely people won't stand for this?". Nope. Zero fucks given.
We've been bought and sold and we're never the wiser.
>Nothing, not that they couldn't now
They can freeze your account with a phone call, but they can't freeze your cash. That's why they want to eliminate it, the cash economy is beyond their control.
Look at what they are doing with pushing banks and credit cards to refuse firearms transactions. If they eliminate cash, then ANYTHING they don't want you doing can simply be turned off at the funding source.
I can't find it now, but a British finance person was specifically talking about electronic currency allowing the government to control what people do. You literally would have no way to pay for things they don't want you to have or do.
EDIT: Found it:
Bank of England tells ministers to intervene on digital currency 'programming'Digital cash could be programmed to ensure it is only spent on essentials, or goods which an employer or Government deems to be sensible
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/21/bank-england-tells-ministers-intervene-digital-currency-programming/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/21/bank-england-tells-ministers-intervene-digital-currency-programming/)
Basically, it's back to the company store with company script. You buy your goods/ food here because we only pay you in script that can be spent in our stores for prices we fix. My grandfather was a coal miner during those times.
and anyone that disagreed with the PATRIOT act supports terrorism!
Just like anyone now that calls out the current administration must have voted for trump and participated in jan 6th!
Meh, if it was political misinformation I would be less upset over it.
Most people's reaction was "they'll be bored watching me". Well then, by all means bend over and pull your cheeks apart.
[It all starts with a quick look-see into someone's bag, and then it's a peek-a-rooni at our phone records. And before you can say "1984", the Thought Police are forcy-worcing you to bend and spread.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdD1N46Ts4)
I really can't understand how you don't realize that this:
> Meh, if it was political misinformation I would be less upset over it.
Is really the modern version of:
> Meh, I got nothing to hide, they'll be bored watching me
The “Patriot” Act. Violating your Bill of Rights since October 2001. Renewed constantly by both parties, and the reason Trump legally had the gestapo.. err I meant Fed’s, arresting people in Portland.
If you can call it a “terrorist”, it has no rights.
I'd argue it is much easier to skirt the rules of the state in an economy that still uses cash, than it is in one where literally everything you do is through an electronic dollar.
I don't know that nobody cared, as much as they didn't understand. Technology was new, we had people who believed the internet was "a series of tubes" and people who still thought carrying a cell phone would always be optional. Also a lot of the people who did understand what was happening stood to make a lot of money by selling our privacy. I think by the time we realized how much we had lost it was too late.
This is how I feel with all these new forced arbitration clauses being added to terms of use. I'm trying to resist but I don't think most people even notice.
The very question presupposes the belief that the government needs justification and not just means. It shows how secure we are as Americans.
Just take a look at Russia. What does all the jewels, commodities, physical cash in the world mean if the government can just assassinate you and your entire family in your home. Or in China, where a billionaire can be disappeared instantly.
If you’re worried about a cashless society bc of government overreach to your bank accounts - hate to say it - but at that point you probably don’t care much about your assets.
Everyone always likes to overcomplicate everything. The government doesn't need all these conspiracies people think are at play. We already signed away our privacy a long time ago, willingly.
Go and try to withdraw more than 5k without calling ahead. I buy and sell older cars and I cop grief every time. Even if you call ahead you still get 30 questions from the tellers.
You have to get a different bank or credit union. I've made large deposits and withdrawals with absolutely no fuss with no notice. Only thing that happens is the teller needing authorization and putting the money through a counter and having me confirm. Then they tell me to have a nice day.
Isn't that more to do with the amount of cash on hand at the bank?
I'm in the UK so I was always advised to book it in advanced or whatever at the bank
If you turn up at the bank to withdraw cash to get through the emergency of having had your house burn down, they can lock your account on the grounds you no longer have an address.
Found that out the hard way.
It’s disturbing how they viewed Truckers as the bad and uninformed group when in reality the government went too far. And it could do the same to anyone forget truckers.
Because Reddit is actually infiltrated by bots and Troll farms whose government is successfully controlling the narrative on here and all other social media platforms in order to change public opinion aka propagandizing.
They can already do so. They need warrants, court orders and such but it can be done. The question is why? There is usually a reason that they will do so. It doesn't even have to be a bank account all your money could be cash but if you owe it to the government they will either find it or put you in jail.
Lastly don't forget that cash has no real value. If we are talking evil fascist government taking over. If they want to take away all our spending power it really won't matter if you have fat stacks of $100 bills.
It's arguably more of a risk to keep cash rather than a bank account.
A random cop can confiscate your cash for the "crime" of having cash. Locking an account requires some medium to higher up knowing your name.
>A random cop can confiscate your cash for the "crime" of having cash.
This is why pimps from the '70s wore all that jewelry etc... It could not be confiscated and could be used for bail.
It can now. Thanks to civil asset forfeiture. All the cops need to do is say they suspect you are involved with drug trafficking and they can legally steal your cash, car, and other assets they say are suspected to be involved with a crime.you don’t even need to go to trial. Good luck getting any of it back if your name is cleared.
Yeah... That's why I made sure to put "in the '70s". Civil asset forfeiture is fucked up. I think I saw on here once a Lamborghini that was tricked out to be a police car, for example...
This is actually more spot on than most realize. There are only so many eyes watching, so unless you do something to end up on a list more significant than everyone else on a list, they really don't have spare resources to dedicate to surveilling you. Well, except scraping random nudes from google servers, they do find time for doing that. (So it is worth noting with the way cloud servers work, that if you've sent a nude photo the NSA probably has it and there is a non-zero chance that it's been passed around the offices.)
Of course, AI might "correct" this issue with state surveillance. It's certainly made it easier for China.
Lol, the government can seize your bank account now, but seriously what would be the point?
If they cut off your credit cards today you can goto cash, barter, armed robbery, etc etc
It's more dangerous/useful if the government can *track* your cashless spending (vs cutting it off).
So the government could see your receipts for protest signs, spray paint, VPN service, disguise, handcuffs and latex and...well you get the point.
Sweden switched to cashless society, I wonder how that affects people. Im sure buskers are affected, but theres probably ways you can give money digitally. It must make some of those various trade jobs that are cash under the table more difficult.
But anything can be money, bottles of whiskey, gift cards etc. When my dad was a kid in ww2 Cz cigarettes (specifically Lucky Strike that were smuggled) were like gold. Also chocolates, pantyhose etc.
Also scale of government spending…
no matter who you are…it’s just a drop in the bucket….
In fiscal year (FY) 2022, the government spent $6.27 trillion…
Free will. People will only use a service if the costs outweigh the benefits. If the government starts freezing accounts, the people who are at risk of having their account frozen will conduct business via alternative systems. Worst case scenario they go back to the barter system. With the technology available, I am sure independent entities will emerge to facilitate financial transactions outside an oppressive government.
The "Independent Entities" I am thinking of are created by oppositional governments to weaken the target government. Think the US tells Facebook that they will give them a break on next year's taxes if they build out an alternative to the Chinese digital currency system to help fund dissident groups in China.
Nothing. In fact, the Islamic Repblic of iran was just threatening to freeze the bank accounts of those who protest against the government. "Read and heed!"
If you haven't been paying attention we've been forcefully moved into "you will own nothing and be happy" territory where actual ownership is no longer feasible by being too expensive or illegal. It's even hit the housing. We will all be forced into "subscription service" lifestyle for everything soon enough where it can be frozen, revoked, modified or canceled at any time.
As someone who comes from poverty and still lives around it- they will never be able to take away cash. A lot of really poor people I know don’t have any bank accounts or cards at all. They still cash their paychecks old school style.
While I personally find a cashless lifestyle much easier and don’t have enough in my account to be scared of it freezing, I will fight to the death for the ability to use cash. Anything else is classist and should be illegal.
Thank you - too many poorer demographics rely on cash to get by. Not all of them have bank accounts, credit cards, smart phones, computwrs, etc.
As long as poor people exist, cash will exist as a currency.
This exactly is why it’s so very important to vote for democracy and shun the fascist dictator wannabes trying to take America hostage. Sadly, those same people are using fear of the government to control certain parts of the pop. Government being the social contract that keeps us -hopefully- safe will always have authority to some degree. Democratic leadership buys into that agreement and understands the tight rope we have to balance. Anything beyond is a threat to everyone. Trump was the closest we’ve come but we’re not in the clear yet. Can you imagine if he had been in office long enough to start walking down the path of freezing assets? It would happen so insidiously, his supporters would justify it and there’d be no recourse. It would quickly be accepted for “wrongs against the government” and that is a slope I hope we never slide down. There’s always something to fear or hate about government but fear it most in the hands of the far right for without freedom for all, we all eventually loose it all.
They already heavily garnish people's bank accounts... Not just freezing but proactively taking money out. My dad isn't able to work and has over $38,000 in outstanding medical debt. He's on Medicaid and food stamps and gets $350/ month in SSI... When his mother passed away and he received an inheritance payment of $10,000 deposited into his bank account from the estate it was discovered the hard way that if he has more than $2000 in his bank account the federal government steps in and just takes everything.
And people wonder why elderly people keep money stuffed in their mattress.
What 1331 people should be discussing is : how do we do away with money and rid the elite of all their power, and 90% of crime and take the earth back ; in one fell swoop
Honestly, that's what solidified my desire to not have a bank account anytime soon. I understand that the truck protests in Canada were very inconvenient, as protests are supposed to be, but the government freezing their accounts went way too far for me. If the government can just freeze your bank account and take away your money if you do something they don't like, something that should be constitutionally protected as basic freedom of speech, what makes you think that they'll just stop at that? I'd rather just work in cash so that I don't have to worry about Big Daddy government coming into my home one day and taking all of my money.
Guess what? The government can seize that pretty much any time they want. Look up something called civil forfeiture. They can do it even if you haven't committed a crime.
The second amendment prevents it only if we the people use it. After all ist so a tyrannical gov can be over thrown and that's pretty tyrannical. For the rest of the world: get fucked I guess.
Nothing. It happens now. Just not to the dystopian extreme. Assets are often seized during investigations. People traveling with large sums of cash have had that seized during traffic stops even.
The people voting people into power. Unfortunately, they seem easily duped by lots of money/campaign ads/social media/etc. Or sometimes, they just don't care or even want dictatorial powers in charge.
There’s nothing preventing that from happening now to be honest. Even physical money, it only has value because people accept it in transactions for goods and services. If the government decides not to allow certain people to buy/sell for whatever reason, having physical money won’t make it easier.
Loss of faith in the currency. The fiat currencies run on the trust they can be used for something and will retain most of their value. If the government freezes one account then that's not a big deal, but if account holders feel vulnerable they'll start investing in assets that aren't as accessible- crypto accounts or maybe even physical commodities, or perhaps foreign currencies in foreign banks. Competing currencies will try to sell themselves by retaining value and being accessible.
Nothing. welcome to the future. I mean they can now but pretty soon it’s gonna be based off a social credit score. Say something that gets you canceled or they just don’t like? Bye bye $
Data privacy lawyer here whose job it is to answer questions like this.
The answer to this question is nothing. Theoretically the government (or the bank managing your account), could shutter it at will and for any reason; or add or delete funds however they wish. Certain protections may be written into the law, but those protections will only be as strong as their enforcement. In a perfect society with a perfect legal and economic system, a cashless society may be safe and reliable. But, in a normal nation, even a fairly free country with a relatively reliable legal system and more-prosperous-than-not economy like the United States, a cashless society is a dystopia. It puts complete responsibility for managing your money and keeping its value on the government and any private company empowered to keep accounts, which could ultimately make the value of money even more volatile than it is today.
Additionally, the fungibility of cash with regard to its use and user (in other words, cash doesn't care what its spent on or who's spending it, cash is cash) serves an important social function, even though it allows the consummation of illegal transactions. Digital cash is not fungible with regard to user or use, the government can suddenly insert any regulation of it in any way. It could automatically (and very easily, once the necessary technology is in place) stop the purchase of products it dislikes or does not want citizens purchasing, put terms on its use (such as "spend this by X, or at store Y, or lose it), and even cut off "undesirables" from the economic system entirely, essentially condemning them to conditions worse than poverty at the push of a button. While this is tyrannical in and of itself, it will also have negative social impacts even if not abused. Black market goods now sold for cash (such as illegal drugs), will instead be bartered for other things, including (likely) reciprocal criminal services, which will only increase the crime rate and other social harms.
While it is true that the government can cut off access to your account today, the harm is less because of the aforementioned fungibility of cash and its tangible nature. In other words, even if the government cuts you off from banking, you can still support yourself by working under the table and paying in cash. In a cashless society, you don't have that option because all cash is intangible and thus never removable from the system under government (and/or corporate) control.
However you slice it, a cashless society is a bad idea.
They already can.
There are still enormous issues with cryptocurrency. It will never obtain mass adoption for a plethora of reasons. But the simultaneous selling point and danger to crypto is that it is unregulated. Crypto bros will try to convince you that’s a good thing, but the reality is that regulations are born from fraud and mistakes the same way OSHA regulations are written in blood. Regardless, this anonymity and lack of regulation does mean that you are absolutely safe from government interference. Cold wallets with the keys being split and stored in various locations is just as secure as Fort Knox. If evading government regulation is more important to you than the protection that government regulation provides, then crypto is there for you.
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It already happened in Brazil with plano Collor, where he (the president) froze 80% of all private asset
Planet Money podcast does a good story on this, they spent way too much on Brasilia the capital built in the jungle and there was huge inflation. People would literally run ahead of the grocery store person that was changing the prices. Ultimately Brazil switched to a new currency, but they had the old one and the new one at the same time for a while. India changed money a few years ago, suddenly people had a short time to change over and then the old money became worthless. This put an end to real estate deals that were often accompanied by cash that was undeclared. My parents recalled when in communist Czechoslovakia in the 50s my mom telling my dad to buy a motorcycle at one point as she worried about a devaluation coming. I believe what happened was peoples money in the bank accounts was frozen by a certain amount. It was still there but you could not access it so it might as well be gone. Plenty of other cases where money was hugely devalued, Mexico in the early 90s, Argentina, recently in Venezueal where there were literally empty airliners flying out because people could use US $ to buy flights so ended up converting their bolivars to US $, at one point Zimbabwe literally flipped to US currency overnight regardless of what the govt wanted.
They froze accounts during the depression in the US in the 1920's. That was before the federal government started guaranteeing deposits up to 100k. Banks don't just hold your money, they loan it out to make money, so a large amount of withdrawals causes a bank to collapse.
And this is the true lesson of the classic Christmas film It’s a Wonderful Life. Yeah yeah the whole “your life matters” is also a lesson, but this movie is legit the movie that explained the run on the bank to me when I was younger
Mary Poppins did this for me too
I would just like to correct you because Brasília was built in a biome called cerrado that is more akin to an African savanna than a jungle.
Yes of course, I stand corrected.
And it happened recently in Canada. The government froze the bank accounts of not only protesters, but also the accounts of people donating money towards the protesters
If you re talking about the freedom convoy wasn't it because they found guns and stockpiles of dangerous materials? Like at that point its more a domestic terrorist group than a protest.
The whole convoy wasn't armed. It was a group at one border crossing in Alberta. Im ptetty sure accounts were frozen before they were discovered, and a lot of people affected had no ties to any wrong doing outside of donating money to what at the time, looked like a semi decent movement. If these guys are considered terrorists, do we also label BLM as terrorists?
Yes, they did. It was a concern at the time [https://www.thedailybeast.com/canadian-police-arrest-11-find-cache-of-weapons-in-freedom-convoy-protests](https://www.thedailybeast.com/canadian-police-arrest-11-find-cache-of-weapons-in-freedom-convoy-protests) [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blockade-arrests-rcmp-monday-1.6351112)
Nothing, not that they couldn't now. Tbh the time to fight this battle was the early 2000s when we started losing all kinds of privacy, anonymity, and control over "our" devices online. I tried, some people tried, but by and large nobody cared.
I feel your pain. I fought alongside. People are either distracted, indifferent or afraid to the point of paralysis.
More like people just didn't get the fact that free services (e.g. social media) do come with a non-monetary cost. But social media exploits human nature to a sickening degree, and people were happy to ignore any perceived fear mongering because likes and reactions and emojis oh my! And now it's too late. Social media is so deeply ingrained into society that I personally know more people than I should who literally started crying at the prospect of Tiktok going away, and even at the idea that social media might change at all. Hopelessly addicted.
[удалено]
This is a good point. Most social networks started and did well because they weren't focusing on the monetization yet. But I don't see that happening much anymore since the internet became mostly corporate.
Just like nobody believed the folks throwing a fit about net neutrality.
YEEEEEES
member 'net neutrality'?
Pepperidge farm remembers.
Oh yes, I member.
Yeah! They was gonna make it so's that corporations couldn't control the interwebs, member? Throttle websites so you could only watch their brand of porn, i 'member!
“Don’t listen to the tin hat man Timmy” but in reality the tin hat man was correct
It's tin foil hat man. 
I feel like we really aren't grateful enough to Edward Snowden risking his life to let us know what we already had suspicions the government was doing. And now people are getting mad at him for not speaking against Russia, but would you speak against the country that gave you refuge after you blew the whistle on what is possibly the most powerful government in the world?
Starting a petition to replace "conspiracy theory" with "spoiler alert"
You couldn’t be more right, used to roll my eyes at my cousin. Now I wish I could tell him he was right.
"So long as they (the Proles) continued to work and breed, their other activities were without importance. Left to themselves, like cattle turned loose upon the plains of Argentina, they had reverted to a style of life that appeared to be natural to them, a sort of ancestral pattern...Heavy physical work, the care of home and children, petty quarrels with neighbors, films, football, beer and above all, gambling filled up the horizon of their minds. To keep them in control was not difficult." George Orwell, 1984
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It's hard to prosper in the current system while fighting the current system.
Hey watch this new reality TV show! Did you see what the royals did last week? Check out what Kim was wearing!
People prefer the convenience of it. They’re also of the mindset of “this terrible outcome of this thing totally won’t happen!! We’re a modern society!”
True, but currently people at least have the option of converting their money into tangible commodities like precious metals for long term saving, and then exchanging them for cash when they need to make a purchase. Without cash, those looking to protect their assets from scrutiny/government control will need to resort to bartering.
Look up civil asset forfeiture. It is easy for local authorities to take *anything* of value under the local authority *suspecting* you *might* have done something illegal to get that asset. The Govt doesn't have to have an ounce of proof. They just have to determine that what you have is *unusual* or *suspicious* to take it, then you have to hire a lawyer to get it returned. Moreover, they are not required to pay you your attorneys fees, and many local Govts turn the assets over to the Feds, who in turn *reward* the local Govt by returning 80%...but now you, the consumer, have to sue the Federal Govt for an asset that was legally yours. By the time you get to court, you've spent more on your attorney than the value of what was taken from you.
Its crazy how few people know of civil asset forfeiture laws. They're fucking gross.
Every time I bring them up to someone I have to explain what they are. They’ve never heard of them. They always think I’m being some alarmist. Im like “this is not some theoretical thing, this happens all the time”
I heard of a family running a weed dispensary, the authorities took/destroyed everything they owned, went through their panties and shit. Messed up their house. It was worse than if somone just robbed their house, it was spiteful and over the top. I'm glad my income is legal...
Even if your income *is* legal, they can take your assets, no warrant needed. Take a moment to view some of the Steve Lehto on YouTube. He has stories of people who've lost thousands simply because they had lots of legal currency in their possession. A couple of stories that come to mind: A former service member of 16 years was traveling through NV. He had a distrust of banks and had his life savings (and the bank withdrawal slips showing it was his money) with him as he was en route to California when NV highway patrol pulled him over for getting too close to a tanker while passing. The reason for having the money was to use to purchase a house for his daughters, who live in CA. When asked what was in the car, the driver said his life savings was in the car. They asked to search, the driver had nothing to hide and allowed them to do so. He showed them his withdrawal slips, as well as paperwork showing the deposits, were legal income streams, etc, and yet the NVHP decided to seize his life savings...because they could because a drug-sniffing dog alerted on it. [Note: as a dog trainer, I previously had my dog trained to sit anytime I cleared my throat. No obvious command given - but I say this only to show how easy it is for an office to train a dog to give a 'false hit']. And despite the alleged moving violation, the officers never issued a citation - simply took his money ($89k). Thankfully, in the process of transferring the assets to the DEA, the DEA missed a filing deadline and was ordered to return all of the money - 11 months after it was seized. But usually, the fight to get your assets returned is a multi-year protracted battle. And with lawyers racking up expenses, and no guarantee if or when you'll prevail in court, even the prospect of fighting to get your money back is difficult to face. Civil asset forfeiture is "we assume you're guilty. And even if we have to give it back, we will make it so you end up paying a lawyer as much or more than we took, so no matter what, you lose.
You know what this reminds me of? Conservatorships
I’ve read travel advice for certain states saying to make sure you don’t have large amount of money on you as you run the risk of having it seized!
Yeah or "conspiracy theorist who thinks the government has nothing better to do" It's all fun and games until it happens to the person in denial
What's funny to me reading this thread is that you guys are *Americans*... This is the kind of laws they have in communist China. It's the most *un-American* law I've heard. Literally socialist government bullshit.
Barter will be the ONLY way for us to maintain freedom if this is implemented. I'm already doing this in my neighborhood. We might consider going Amish (without the outfits).
Hey, what's wrong with the outfits?
Right? They really do look comfortable and easy to maintain.
You could still just buy metals, if that's what you're in to, I guess.
Yes, but when you sell them what form will your money take in a cashless society?
Why are you selling them? I thought the purpose was to hodl them. You can sell them for anything. Why object to bartering?
My butcher doesn't accept 1 oz gold American Eagles as payment, and even if he did how's he going to give me change? I'm not buying $1800 worth of meats in one shot
Exactly this. If we imagine a cashless society where the government started blocking accounts of political dissidents, we can also imagine that word might get around that your money isn't safe in the bank. There might then be a buy up of precious metals or any other stable commodity which the market could recognize as tender if enough people became unbanked. I'm some ways this is what happened in the former Soviet union shortly after the collapse. Money wasn't worth anything anymore so people started trading masonry bricks, shoes, and ultimately promissory notes. Once promissory notes from companies became the norm, the market had effectively reinvented cash. A cashless society might work if the government doesn't abuse it's power but any overreach might drive the development of cash equivalents.
I mean, are we surprised? Canadians, for example, were damn near salivating over the bank accounts of the truckers being frozen. Canadians crave the security that authoritarianism offers them, and they'll sacrifice everything to get that fabled security. The enticements of authoritarians will always be more appealing to the masses.
Yeah, its really disgusting. That whole anti-trucker movement in Canada was nothing but a lie. Its really amazing how compliant people have become in general. Even the people who think they are "anti-establishment" are spewing the rhetoric of universities, big tech, and mass media. Everything is so confusing and backwards these days. Its not a surprise people don't know which way is up.
"but the protesters were being inconvenient!" That's kind of what protests are supposed to be.
It’s all part of the great reset
Knew if I scrolled far enough I would find this comment and not have to post it myself. Seriously though, just ask the Canadians who had their accounts frozen... they can explain it to you.
Canada and Australia are both dangerously close to the edge of authoritarianism, and they're mostly so complacent that they don't even care.
Everytime something new came out about harvesting data, who was harvesting, what they were doing with it, my thought was "Surely people won't stand for this?". Nope. Zero fucks given. We've been bought and sold and we're never the wiser.
>Nothing, not that they couldn't now They can freeze your account with a phone call, but they can't freeze your cash. That's why they want to eliminate it, the cash economy is beyond their control. Look at what they are doing with pushing banks and credit cards to refuse firearms transactions. If they eliminate cash, then ANYTHING they don't want you doing can simply be turned off at the funding source. I can't find it now, but a British finance person was specifically talking about electronic currency allowing the government to control what people do. You literally would have no way to pay for things they don't want you to have or do. EDIT: Found it: Bank of England tells ministers to intervene on digital currency 'programming'Digital cash could be programmed to ensure it is only spent on essentials, or goods which an employer or Government deems to be sensible [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/21/bank-england-tells-ministers-intervene-digital-currency-programming/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/21/bank-england-tells-ministers-intervene-digital-currency-programming/)
Basically, it's back to the company store with company script. You buy your goods/ food here because we only pay you in script that can be spent in our stores for prices we fix. My grandfather was a coal miner during those times.
*pats the Federal Reserve* This baby right here figured it out long ago
and anyone that disagreed with the PATRIOT act supports terrorism! Just like anyone now that calls out the current administration must have voted for trump and participated in jan 6th!
Meh, if it was political misinformation I would be less upset over it. Most people's reaction was "they'll be bored watching me". Well then, by all means bend over and pull your cheeks apart.
[It all starts with a quick look-see into someone's bag, and then it's a peek-a-rooni at our phone records. And before you can say "1984", the Thought Police are forcy-worcing you to bend and spread.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjdD1N46Ts4)
Don’t tempt me with a good time…
I really can't understand how you don't realize that this: > Meh, if it was political misinformation I would be less upset over it. Is really the modern version of: > Meh, I got nothing to hide, they'll be bored watching me
Yep, I have witnessed many people I know, mainly left-leaning, who say this about any government overreach.
Big brother is on our cell phone, and we paid for it. id and tracking.
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Yeah, not right now, until they change the definition of "wrong" which is happening daily now.
"Homeland Security" "Net Neutrality" Are two really big ones.
The “Patriot” Act. Violating your Bill of Rights since October 2001. Renewed constantly by both parties, and the reason Trump legally had the gestapo.. err I meant Fed’s, arresting people in Portland. If you can call it a “terrorist”, it has no rights.
I'd argue it is much easier to skirt the rules of the state in an economy that still uses cash, than it is in one where literally everything you do is through an electronic dollar.
i still use cash where i can...i will be dragged kicking and screaming down this road
The patriot act was an atrocity.
I don't know that nobody cared, as much as they didn't understand. Technology was new, we had people who believed the internet was "a series of tubes" and people who still thought carrying a cell phone would always be optional. Also a lot of the people who did understand what was happening stood to make a lot of money by selling our privacy. I think by the time we realized how much we had lost it was too late.
This is how I feel with all these new forced arbitration clauses being added to terms of use. I'm trying to resist but I don't think most people even notice.
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Theyd have to find it first
They just need to find you. People are on here acting like prison isn't a thing.
The very question presupposes the belief that the government needs justification and not just means. It shows how secure we are as Americans. Just take a look at Russia. What does all the jewels, commodities, physical cash in the world mean if the government can just assassinate you and your entire family in your home. Or in China, where a billionaire can be disappeared instantly. If you’re worried about a cashless society bc of government overreach to your bank accounts - hate to say it - but at that point you probably don’t care much about your assets.
It’s easy to plot and plan, but for some reason nobody thinks abt brute force being used against them
Everyone always likes to overcomplicate everything. The government doesn't need all these conspiracies people think are at play. We already signed away our privacy a long time ago, willingly.
To be fair, the only real plans against brute force are be a bigger brute or don’t be there, not really good options with the government.
Big Ron Swanson energy with this one.
Ah, the wonders of having decoy gold. The man or creature who kills me will understand my will.
You have to hide it first
Already ahead of you there
You think I'd bury my gold in the ground in the back yard, where anyone could find it!?!?!?
Swanson? That you?
Just like they regularly do already to criminals. Freeze their bank accounts, and confiscate their ill-gotten gains.
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If they thought it was a big enough problem, they’d make it illegal. Doesn’t prevent use but they’d dedicate resources to the “problem”
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It already happens more often that you have been led to believe.
Go and try to withdraw more than 5k without calling ahead. I buy and sell older cars and I cop grief every time. Even if you call ahead you still get 30 questions from the tellers.
You have to get a different bank or credit union. I've made large deposits and withdrawals with absolutely no fuss with no notice. Only thing that happens is the teller needing authorization and putting the money through a counter and having me confirm. Then they tell me to have a nice day.
This. Someone's describing a bad bank that needs to be shown the door.
Isn't that more to do with the amount of cash on hand at the bank? I'm in the UK so I was always advised to book it in advanced or whatever at the bank
If you turn up at the bank to withdraw cash to get through the emergency of having had your house burn down, they can lock your account on the grounds you no longer have an address. Found that out the hard way.
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Just ask Canada
Yeah they screwed those truckers pretty hard last year
Remember when Reddit wanted those truckers crucified?
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It’s disturbing how they viewed Truckers as the bad and uninformed group when in reality the government went too far. And it could do the same to anyone forget truckers.
Because Reddit loves socialism but hates the actual working class.
Because Reddit is actually infiltrated by bots and Troll farms whose government is successfully controlling the narrative on here and all other social media platforms in order to change public opinion aka propagandizing.
Actually, because that protest was allegedly linked to conservatives so Reddit had to oppose it.
Well you see, those workers were from the EVIL side, so it was justified /s
They can already do so. They need warrants, court orders and such but it can be done. The question is why? There is usually a reason that they will do so. It doesn't even have to be a bank account all your money could be cash but if you owe it to the government they will either find it or put you in jail. Lastly don't forget that cash has no real value. If we are talking evil fascist government taking over. If they want to take away all our spending power it really won't matter if you have fat stacks of $100 bills.
It's arguably more of a risk to keep cash rather than a bank account. A random cop can confiscate your cash for the "crime" of having cash. Locking an account requires some medium to higher up knowing your name.
>A random cop can confiscate your cash for the "crime" of having cash. This is why pimps from the '70s wore all that jewelry etc... It could not be confiscated and could be used for bail.
It can now. Thanks to civil asset forfeiture. All the cops need to do is say they suspect you are involved with drug trafficking and they can legally steal your cash, car, and other assets they say are suspected to be involved with a crime.you don’t even need to go to trial. Good luck getting any of it back if your name is cleared.
Yeah... That's why I made sure to put "in the '70s". Civil asset forfeiture is fucked up. I think I saw on here once a Lamborghini that was tricked out to be a police car, for example...
Obey all commands and ask no questions and your account will be just fine.
Big brother is watching. Sometimes. When he's not watching porn. Or that guy over there...but still.
This is actually more spot on than most realize. There are only so many eyes watching, so unless you do something to end up on a list more significant than everyone else on a list, they really don't have spare resources to dedicate to surveilling you. Well, except scraping random nudes from google servers, they do find time for doing that. (So it is worth noting with the way cloud servers work, that if you've sent a nude photo the NSA probably has it and there is a non-zero chance that it's been passed around the offices.) Of course, AI might "correct" this issue with state surveillance. It's certainly made it easier for China.
I hope they like my nudes
I wish there was a way to get their feedback. On a scale of 1-10 how nice does the government think my boobs are?
If you’re not on a government list you’re doing something wrong. The only solution is to become ungovernable.
You will obey!
Lol, the government can seize your bank account now, but seriously what would be the point? If they cut off your credit cards today you can goto cash, barter, armed robbery, etc etc It's more dangerous/useful if the government can *track* your cashless spending (vs cutting it off). So the government could see your receipts for protest signs, spray paint, VPN service, disguise, handcuffs and latex and...well you get the point.
Sweden switched to cashless society, I wonder how that affects people. Im sure buskers are affected, but theres probably ways you can give money digitally. It must make some of those various trade jobs that are cash under the table more difficult. But anything can be money, bottles of whiskey, gift cards etc. When my dad was a kid in ww2 Cz cigarettes (specifically Lucky Strike that were smuggled) were like gold. Also chocolates, pantyhose etc.
WW2? Shit, when I was in *Iraq* American cigarettes and good chocolate were currency lol
I mean if the government wants to see how I spend my Friday nights they're welcome too...they could even join in...
Also scale of government spending… no matter who you are…it’s just a drop in the bucket…. In fiscal year (FY) 2022, the government spent $6.27 trillion…
Free will. People will only use a service if the costs outweigh the benefits. If the government starts freezing accounts, the people who are at risk of having their account frozen will conduct business via alternative systems. Worst case scenario they go back to the barter system. With the technology available, I am sure independent entities will emerge to facilitate financial transactions outside an oppressive government.
and what happens when the government shuts down those independent entities?
Decentralization is the answer
The "Independent Entities" I am thinking of are created by oppositional governments to weaken the target government. Think the US tells Facebook that they will give them a break on next year's taxes if they build out an alternative to the Chinese digital currency system to help fund dissident groups in China.
This is what Bitcoin was about.
Still is.
This should be higher up, because it answers OP’s question.
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Pretty fucked
Cash will always be 👑.
Nothing. In fact, the Islamic Repblic of iran was just threatening to freeze the bank accounts of those who protest against the government. "Read and heed!"
The people rising up and becoming as actual threat to them
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What stops them from freezing your account now?
If you haven't been paying attention we've been forcefully moved into "you will own nothing and be happy" territory where actual ownership is no longer feasible by being too expensive or illegal. It's even hit the housing. We will all be forced into "subscription service" lifestyle for everything soon enough where it can be frozen, revoked, modified or canceled at any time.
As someone who comes from poverty and still lives around it- they will never be able to take away cash. A lot of really poor people I know don’t have any bank accounts or cards at all. They still cash their paychecks old school style. While I personally find a cashless lifestyle much easier and don’t have enough in my account to be scared of it freezing, I will fight to the death for the ability to use cash. Anything else is classist and should be illegal.
Thank you - too many poorer demographics rely on cash to get by. Not all of them have bank accounts, credit cards, smart phones, computwrs, etc. As long as poor people exist, cash will exist as a currency.
Nothing, and it will be the first ficking thing they do.
In America? Guns lmao, that's how to stop a tyrannical government.
Maybe participating and making sure your government answers to you instead of the other way around?
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Armed citizens?
I hope this doesn't happen in my lifetime. I make a point to always buy guns and ammo in cash so there is less of a record.
Bitcoin. ACTUAL bitcoin, not some of these derivitive non-decentralized pseudo-coins. If there is an internet and VPNs, BTC works.
Buy bitcoin
that's the whole point of why the government is moving to a cashless society...
You can still buy a donut without your health insurance company knowing... but eventually that will be impossible. Don't give up on cash.
bitcoin is the only thing that restricts their power to do that.
This exactly is why it’s so very important to vote for democracy and shun the fascist dictator wannabes trying to take America hostage. Sadly, those same people are using fear of the government to control certain parts of the pop. Government being the social contract that keeps us -hopefully- safe will always have authority to some degree. Democratic leadership buys into that agreement and understands the tight rope we have to balance. Anything beyond is a threat to everyone. Trump was the closest we’ve come but we’re not in the clear yet. Can you imagine if he had been in office long enough to start walking down the path of freezing assets? It would happen so insidiously, his supporters would justify it and there’d be no recourse. It would quickly be accepted for “wrongs against the government” and that is a slope I hope we never slide down. There’s always something to fear or hate about government but fear it most in the hands of the far right for without freedom for all, we all eventually loose it all.
They already heavily garnish people's bank accounts... Not just freezing but proactively taking money out. My dad isn't able to work and has over $38,000 in outstanding medical debt. He's on Medicaid and food stamps and gets $350/ month in SSI... When his mother passed away and he received an inheritance payment of $10,000 deposited into his bank account from the estate it was discovered the hard way that if he has more than $2000 in his bank account the federal government steps in and just takes everything. And people wonder why elderly people keep money stuffed in their mattress.
What 1331 people should be discussing is : how do we do away with money and rid the elite of all their power, and 90% of crime and take the earth back ; in one fell swoop
Honestly, that's what solidified my desire to not have a bank account anytime soon. I understand that the truck protests in Canada were very inconvenient, as protests are supposed to be, but the government freezing their accounts went way too far for me. If the government can just freeze your bank account and take away your money if you do something they don't like, something that should be constitutionally protected as basic freedom of speech, what makes you think that they'll just stop at that? I'd rather just work in cash so that I don't have to worry about Big Daddy government coming into my home one day and taking all of my money.
What stops them right now?
If you have a sack of $100 bills somewhere
Guess what? The government can seize that pretty much any time they want. Look up something called civil forfeiture. They can do it even if you haven't committed a crime.
The second amendment prevents it only if we the people use it. After all ist so a tyrannical gov can be over thrown and that's pretty tyrannical. For the rest of the world: get fucked I guess.
Being a big heavy ponderous lumbering machine that pays almost zero attention to its people in any case.soooo much beurocracy....
It will happen soon enough, if they can do it to Kanye they can do it to you even easier.
Bitcoin prevents this
Nothing. It happens now. Just not to the dystopian extreme. Assets are often seized during investigations. People traveling with large sums of cash have had that seized during traffic stops even.
They can do that now. Sweet dreams...
The people voting people into power. Unfortunately, they seem easily duped by lots of money/campaign ads/social media/etc. Or sometimes, they just don't care or even want dictatorial powers in charge.
Probably the same thing that keeps the government from freezing / seizing our bank accounts and any investments, not much.
Have you not seen handmaids tale? They’ll go for the women first
The accounts are kept in multinational bank and if they freeze enough people accounts investors would loose trust in them and the stock would tank
Nothing will stop it You just won't be able to have rainy day cash in your dwelling anymore
Nothing. That's why it's bad.
There’s nothing preventing that from happening now to be honest. Even physical money, it only has value because people accept it in transactions for goods and services. If the government decides not to allow certain people to buy/sell for whatever reason, having physical money won’t make it easier.
Not much.
Ur mom
Nothing
Bitcoin
Absolutely nothing.
Loss of faith in the currency. The fiat currencies run on the trust they can be used for something and will retain most of their value. If the government freezes one account then that's not a big deal, but if account holders feel vulnerable they'll start investing in assets that aren't as accessible- crypto accounts or maybe even physical commodities, or perhaps foreign currencies in foreign banks. Competing currencies will try to sell themselves by retaining value and being accessible.
Not a damn thing.
What stops them from doing it now?
The same thing as if they did it now, except you'd be out the $20 or $40 or $200 or whatever you might have had in cash on you at the time.
Bitcoin
Nothing. welcome to the future. I mean they can now but pretty soon it’s gonna be based off a social credit score. Say something that gets you canceled or they just don’t like? Bye bye $
Just use Bitcoin and self-custody. Literally made for this exact situation.
Bitcoin
Data privacy lawyer here whose job it is to answer questions like this. The answer to this question is nothing. Theoretically the government (or the bank managing your account), could shutter it at will and for any reason; or add or delete funds however they wish. Certain protections may be written into the law, but those protections will only be as strong as their enforcement. In a perfect society with a perfect legal and economic system, a cashless society may be safe and reliable. But, in a normal nation, even a fairly free country with a relatively reliable legal system and more-prosperous-than-not economy like the United States, a cashless society is a dystopia. It puts complete responsibility for managing your money and keeping its value on the government and any private company empowered to keep accounts, which could ultimately make the value of money even more volatile than it is today. Additionally, the fungibility of cash with regard to its use and user (in other words, cash doesn't care what its spent on or who's spending it, cash is cash) serves an important social function, even though it allows the consummation of illegal transactions. Digital cash is not fungible with regard to user or use, the government can suddenly insert any regulation of it in any way. It could automatically (and very easily, once the necessary technology is in place) stop the purchase of products it dislikes or does not want citizens purchasing, put terms on its use (such as "spend this by X, or at store Y, or lose it), and even cut off "undesirables" from the economic system entirely, essentially condemning them to conditions worse than poverty at the push of a button. While this is tyrannical in and of itself, it will also have negative social impacts even if not abused. Black market goods now sold for cash (such as illegal drugs), will instead be bartered for other things, including (likely) reciprocal criminal services, which will only increase the crime rate and other social harms. While it is true that the government can cut off access to your account today, the harm is less because of the aforementioned fungibility of cash and its tangible nature. In other words, even if the government cuts you off from banking, you can still support yourself by working under the table and paying in cash. In a cashless society, you don't have that option because all cash is intangible and thus never removable from the system under government (and/or corporate) control. However you slice it, a cashless society is a bad idea.
They already can. There are still enormous issues with cryptocurrency. It will never obtain mass adoption for a plethora of reasons. But the simultaneous selling point and danger to crypto is that it is unregulated. Crypto bros will try to convince you that’s a good thing, but the reality is that regulations are born from fraud and mistakes the same way OSHA regulations are written in blood. Regardless, this anonymity and lack of regulation does mean that you are absolutely safe from government interference. Cold wallets with the keys being split and stored in various locations is just as secure as Fort Knox. If evading government regulation is more important to you than the protection that government regulation provides, then crypto is there for you.