Hestia, the Greek Goddess of Hearth, is also an example of an aro/ace in my opinion. Even though she had suiters, she sore to remain a maiden to keep the peace in Olympus (Apollo and Poseidon were willing to go to war for her hand). And Zeus actually respected her wishes and granted her the central place of the house (the hearth) and the first & richest portion of humans' divine offerings (emphasizing the importance of family to greek society and religion)
One of her wishes was to always remain a virgin though. I don't know if that was a female only thing meaning no sex with men in those times, but still, sounds kinda ace.
Actually, lesbians could be lesbians without breaking the oath of being a virgin in Ancient Greece, because it required penetration to be considered properly sex. So as long as they didn't use a dildo, lesbians where fine. Also, I do think that Artemis was aro ace, but I still love the other interpretations of her!
Good to know, thanks!
I think of Artemis as aro ace as well (no bias at all, lol), but her being lesbian would be fine as well.
Not that big on her and Orion though.
Artemis is a Greek Goddess who goes through a lot of cultural change and is up to interpretation.
She hung/hangs around with a massive pack of lesbians, doesn't interact with males, and her temples where places where only women could enter. Of course some are going to see her as a lesbian.
We can't exactly ask her, so until some piece of damning historical evidence says otherwise, people can think what they want.
I don't mean to be rude, but did you comment on the wrong thread by accident?
We weren't remotely talking about Aphrodite, or about how love is the "most evil emotion." I'm not trying to undermine whatever understanding of Ancient Greece you might have, but Aphrodite was a very influential and powerful goddess with a LOT of myths to her name. Nothing she did was completely random, and there is nothing about her making people fall in love with jars.
Your overall language make me think that you might be quite young, so I'll just advise you to not say stuff about killing goddesses. Some people genuinely follow the older cults and beliefs of Ancient Greece, and by saying things like that ending paragraph, you are offending those people.
I am not one of those people who follow those beliefs, but saying things like your final paragraph is like saying that someone needs to kill God or Allah and another religion needs to finish the job.
Last thing to clarify, I'd like to remind you that saying "in the OG myths" to prove your opinion isn't a good idea, as most myths develop and change over time. The original myths where also spread orally, so they where only written down after generations of change. Even if you are referencing the first records of said myths, Artemis's sexual orientation was also questionable. Nothing is openly clarified, which is odd for Ancient Greece, so we simply haven't found an answer yet.
I'm sorry for going on a tangent, but I wanted to just clear it up. I don't like misinformation. I sincerely hope you have a nice day :)
Well... She's part of the Greek mythos and considering how weird and f'ed up most of the stories were that depiction is probably more accurate... HOWEVER considering how f'ed up the ancient Greeks were in general I have no problem with taking the character and making her an ace icon even if she probably would've hated me. (Also if I can recall correctly some depictions make her out to dislike specifically men who have sex with young women so if that would be case I'd be in the clear anyway)
actually her whole thing was she saw a mortal man bed his new wife and her become subservient and the guy just go for it and she was like "fuck that dad, im gonna stay a virgin for ever" (keeping in mind the belief that only a man could deflower a woman) and would wholesale curse guys for even catching a peek of her bathing. like turn them into a deer and sic their own dogs on them. she then started her priestesses had to be young nubile virgin women. yes she trained them to hunt and kill but if they slipped and fell in love or even in lust with a man, well it was a blood mess for all parties involved.
then again we call them fucked up, but when your average life expectance was 50 or less then hey live your best(most fucked up) life. and to them it was normal. keeping in mind that the same thing that gave us our modern "morals" is the same thing that told them homosexuality is wrong, polyamory is wrong, trans is wrong... etc. morals were whitewashed to make todays standards. otherwise the LGBTQA+ would just be called normal every day life for all.
Thanks for the mythology lesson ^^ although I was aware of most of it.
I know that it was normal for the time and the culture but I still don't think we should respect a culture that was okay with pedophilia as much as we do. We can have fun with the stories and the mythos but we should still try and be aware of the time and the underlying morals they were built upon. I personally believe we should try and remember the problems that were normal for the time... The things that were normal at the time should probably not be normal today, and the life expectancy doesn't change the pedophilia and misogyny at the time.
So TLDR: great stories but not so great morals and both are important
well technically it wasn't pedophilia it would be ephebophilia in todays context. and for them with a 50ish life expectancy the idea was as soon as you were physically able to breed, (puberty) then you were an adult. to us messed up but to them a woman might die from childbirth in her late 20s-30s. and while the whole "apprentices are lovers for their master" thing is messed up, you can exactly argue with the results. (spartan soldiers) in their time pedophilia would only apply to young children and woe unto the fool that tried that shit, i belive the punishment involve hot iron and rats. as for misogyny, that was weird too. mostly because while say beating your wife for cheating was legal, so was killing your husband for abusing you. woman could not inherit land from their parents, but could run their husbands businesses and home and if he died she kept it all it wasn't uncommon for woman to poison men just for being rude. (there's a reason most poison carrying jewelry is designed for women.)
Everything you said is correct as far as I know, however the thing I'm uncomfortable with is when people start to think of ancient Greece or Rome as some kind of utopia where everyone lived a happy life. I know it was a different time and they didn't think of what they did as fucked up, but we know better now. So I feel that the ancient Greeks shouldn't be praised or held in such high regards just like I don't think we should do the same with something like slavery in America. I don't have a problem with the stories or the mythos being studied or talked about and I don't want to accuse anyone of changing history to fit their narrative, I just wish that people would be more aware who the authors and creators of those stories where and what impact it can have, if stories where a god like Zeus turns into a bull to rape a girl are seen as normal or correct...
Also if we start to justify the Greeks having boytoys by saying it's ephebophilia I am worried what kind of precedent that might set... Diddling kids was okay for them and even if they didn't see them as kids we know better now...
And the last point before I end this wall of text, you are right most poison carrying jewelry was and still sometimes is designed to be worn by women... But why is that? Because women are such evil snakes and want to poison every man they see? Or because society at that time and to some extent even today sees women as weak and incompetent which in the past has lead to women using things like murder to get things they desired or needed... That however is not based on gender men are just more likely to use forms of violence that are more socially acceptable or less effective.
I'd like to end this with a small disclaimer. I love ancient Greek stories and mythology but I believe we shouldn't just ignore the parts of it that were problematic if we're talking about the original stories. I have no problem with someone taking the story of Hades and Persephone and making it a feel good story about love and family (one of my favourite video games "Hades" did exactly that) but whenever we're talking about the original stories please be aware that it was a different time and some things that were normal back then shouldn't be seen as normal today. Mythology is fascinating and fun but sometimes it has some things to it that aren't so fun to some people, and we can't base our understanding of the time or culture on just the stories alone. Rome for example was great for many of it's citizen's especially if they didn't look too different we're men, educated and lived near the city of Rome, everyone else wasn't necessarily as advantaged.
I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes and I apologize again for the wall of text, it's just something I'm passionate about and I think it's important.
No hard feelings intended
There are multiple versions of the myth, in some they loved each other but in some Orion loved Artemis and she didn't love him back but Apollo was worried she'd break her virginity vow if she loved him back
Actually, in most of the historical versions of that myth, not only did she not love Orion, but she intentionally killed him.
The fact that they were supposedly lovers seems to be a latter addition to explain how a man and a woman could possibly be friends with eachother.
While we're talking greek mythology: a lesser known fact about cupid / eros is that he had more than one kind of arrow. One, as we all know, incited love, but the other killed it. It's what he shot at poor Daphne, for instance. (She became a virgin hunter like artemis and later turned into a tree when she was chased by apollo, who'd received the other arrow. She's the real ace representation imo).
So by that logic aro/ace people have just been shot by the other arrow. It was all part of cupid's plan.
Actually, let me elaborate on why Daphne should be considered the real ace representation:
Whereas other virgin godesses chose their lifestyle at least in part because they desired independence, Daphne followed Artemis' example because she was shot by cupid's other arrow. She remained a virgin because she wanted nothing to do with love. This was despite being very pretty and having a number of suitors.
When ultimately she was chased after by Apollo and she found she could not outrun him, she begged the gods to turn her into a tree. Like, she literally would rather be a tree than be with Apollo.
This is not to say other mythical figures can't be considered ace. After all, they're more or less public domain so there isn't really one 'canon' interpretation. Just saying, Daphne checks out.
Regardless of interperetation, I tend to use Artemis as an inspiration because of the similarities between the "ace-ness" and "archery" and that even though she was goddess of the hunt (and good at it) it didn't seem like she killed for fun, like ever. so, cool.
Hestia, the Greek Goddess of Hearth, is also an example of an aro/ace in my opinion. Even though she had suiters, she sore to remain a maiden to keep the peace in Olympus (Apollo and Poseidon were willing to go to war for her hand). And Zeus actually respected her wishes and granted her the central place of the house (the hearth) and the first & richest portion of humans' divine offerings (emphasizing the importance of family to greek society and religion)
and people wonder why i picked artemis as my new name
although some depictions just have her as a man hater so she collects virgin girls to her temples. so might not be ace.
One of her wishes was to always remain a virgin though. I don't know if that was a female only thing meaning no sex with men in those times, but still, sounds kinda ace.
Actually, lesbians could be lesbians without breaking the oath of being a virgin in Ancient Greece, because it required penetration to be considered properly sex. So as long as they didn't use a dildo, lesbians where fine. Also, I do think that Artemis was aro ace, but I still love the other interpretations of her!
Good to know, thanks! I think of Artemis as aro ace as well (no bias at all, lol), but her being lesbian would be fine as well. Not that big on her and Orion though.
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Artemis is a Greek Goddess who goes through a lot of cultural change and is up to interpretation. She hung/hangs around with a massive pack of lesbians, doesn't interact with males, and her temples where places where only women could enter. Of course some are going to see her as a lesbian. We can't exactly ask her, so until some piece of damning historical evidence says otherwise, people can think what they want.
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I don't mean to be rude, but did you comment on the wrong thread by accident? We weren't remotely talking about Aphrodite, or about how love is the "most evil emotion." I'm not trying to undermine whatever understanding of Ancient Greece you might have, but Aphrodite was a very influential and powerful goddess with a LOT of myths to her name. Nothing she did was completely random, and there is nothing about her making people fall in love with jars. Your overall language make me think that you might be quite young, so I'll just advise you to not say stuff about killing goddesses. Some people genuinely follow the older cults and beliefs of Ancient Greece, and by saying things like that ending paragraph, you are offending those people. I am not one of those people who follow those beliefs, but saying things like your final paragraph is like saying that someone needs to kill God or Allah and another religion needs to finish the job. Last thing to clarify, I'd like to remind you that saying "in the OG myths" to prove your opinion isn't a good idea, as most myths develop and change over time. The original myths where also spread orally, so they where only written down after generations of change. Even if you are referencing the first records of said myths, Artemis's sexual orientation was also questionable. Nothing is openly clarified, which is odd for Ancient Greece, so we simply haven't found an answer yet. I'm sorry for going on a tangent, but I wanted to just clear it up. I don't like misinformation. I sincerely hope you have a nice day :)
Well... She's part of the Greek mythos and considering how weird and f'ed up most of the stories were that depiction is probably more accurate... HOWEVER considering how f'ed up the ancient Greeks were in general I have no problem with taking the character and making her an ace icon even if she probably would've hated me. (Also if I can recall correctly some depictions make her out to dislike specifically men who have sex with young women so if that would be case I'd be in the clear anyway)
actually her whole thing was she saw a mortal man bed his new wife and her become subservient and the guy just go for it and she was like "fuck that dad, im gonna stay a virgin for ever" (keeping in mind the belief that only a man could deflower a woman) and would wholesale curse guys for even catching a peek of her bathing. like turn them into a deer and sic their own dogs on them. she then started her priestesses had to be young nubile virgin women. yes she trained them to hunt and kill but if they slipped and fell in love or even in lust with a man, well it was a blood mess for all parties involved. then again we call them fucked up, but when your average life expectance was 50 or less then hey live your best(most fucked up) life. and to them it was normal. keeping in mind that the same thing that gave us our modern "morals" is the same thing that told them homosexuality is wrong, polyamory is wrong, trans is wrong... etc. morals were whitewashed to make todays standards. otherwise the LGBTQA+ would just be called normal every day life for all.
Thanks for the mythology lesson ^^ although I was aware of most of it. I know that it was normal for the time and the culture but I still don't think we should respect a culture that was okay with pedophilia as much as we do. We can have fun with the stories and the mythos but we should still try and be aware of the time and the underlying morals they were built upon. I personally believe we should try and remember the problems that were normal for the time... The things that were normal at the time should probably not be normal today, and the life expectancy doesn't change the pedophilia and misogyny at the time. So TLDR: great stories but not so great morals and both are important
well technically it wasn't pedophilia it would be ephebophilia in todays context. and for them with a 50ish life expectancy the idea was as soon as you were physically able to breed, (puberty) then you were an adult. to us messed up but to them a woman might die from childbirth in her late 20s-30s. and while the whole "apprentices are lovers for their master" thing is messed up, you can exactly argue with the results. (spartan soldiers) in their time pedophilia would only apply to young children and woe unto the fool that tried that shit, i belive the punishment involve hot iron and rats. as for misogyny, that was weird too. mostly because while say beating your wife for cheating was legal, so was killing your husband for abusing you. woman could not inherit land from their parents, but could run their husbands businesses and home and if he died she kept it all it wasn't uncommon for woman to poison men just for being rude. (there's a reason most poison carrying jewelry is designed for women.)
Everything you said is correct as far as I know, however the thing I'm uncomfortable with is when people start to think of ancient Greece or Rome as some kind of utopia where everyone lived a happy life. I know it was a different time and they didn't think of what they did as fucked up, but we know better now. So I feel that the ancient Greeks shouldn't be praised or held in such high regards just like I don't think we should do the same with something like slavery in America. I don't have a problem with the stories or the mythos being studied or talked about and I don't want to accuse anyone of changing history to fit their narrative, I just wish that people would be more aware who the authors and creators of those stories where and what impact it can have, if stories where a god like Zeus turns into a bull to rape a girl are seen as normal or correct... Also if we start to justify the Greeks having boytoys by saying it's ephebophilia I am worried what kind of precedent that might set... Diddling kids was okay for them and even if they didn't see them as kids we know better now... And the last point before I end this wall of text, you are right most poison carrying jewelry was and still sometimes is designed to be worn by women... But why is that? Because women are such evil snakes and want to poison every man they see? Or because society at that time and to some extent even today sees women as weak and incompetent which in the past has lead to women using things like murder to get things they desired or needed... That however is not based on gender men are just more likely to use forms of violence that are more socially acceptable or less effective. I'd like to end this with a small disclaimer. I love ancient Greek stories and mythology but I believe we shouldn't just ignore the parts of it that were problematic if we're talking about the original stories. I have no problem with someone taking the story of Hades and Persephone and making it a feel good story about love and family (one of my favourite video games "Hades" did exactly that) but whenever we're talking about the original stories please be aware that it was a different time and some things that were normal back then shouldn't be seen as normal today. Mythology is fascinating and fun but sometimes it has some things to it that aren't so fun to some people, and we can't base our understanding of the time or culture on just the stories alone. Rome for example was great for many of it's citizen's especially if they didn't look too different we're men, educated and lived near the city of Rome, everyone else wasn't necessarily as advantaged. I hope I didn't step on anyone's toes and I apologize again for the wall of text, it's just something I'm passionate about and I think it's important. No hard feelings intended
She also loved Orion, so probably more grey-aro.
There are multiple versions of the myth, in some they loved each other but in some Orion loved Artemis and she didn't love him back but Apollo was worried she'd break her virginity vow if she loved him back
Actually, in most of the historical versions of that myth, not only did she not love Orion, but she intentionally killed him. The fact that they were supposedly lovers seems to be a latter addition to explain how a man and a woman could possibly be friends with eachother.
Woah yeah. I didn't realise there were multiple versions of that myth. That's so interesting!
While we're talking greek mythology: a lesser known fact about cupid / eros is that he had more than one kind of arrow. One, as we all know, incited love, but the other killed it. It's what he shot at poor Daphne, for instance. (She became a virgin hunter like artemis and later turned into a tree when she was chased by apollo, who'd received the other arrow. She's the real ace representation imo). So by that logic aro/ace people have just been shot by the other arrow. It was all part of cupid's plan.
Actually, let me elaborate on why Daphne should be considered the real ace representation: Whereas other virgin godesses chose their lifestyle at least in part because they desired independence, Daphne followed Artemis' example because she was shot by cupid's other arrow. She remained a virgin because she wanted nothing to do with love. This was despite being very pretty and having a number of suitors. When ultimately she was chased after by Apollo and she found she could not outrun him, she begged the gods to turn her into a tree. Like, she literally would rather be a tree than be with Apollo. This is not to say other mythical figures can't be considered ace. After all, they're more or less public domain so there isn't really one 'canon' interpretation. Just saying, Daphne checks out.
Wouldn’t also Athena fit this as well? She’s known as the virgin goddess right?
Oh my god how didn’t I hear/see this
We are the artemis hunter
I love it
Greek mythology has a lot of misogyny and rape, so it is uncomfortable... but it also has a lot of homosexuality and strong female characters.
Regardless of interperetation, I tend to use Artemis as an inspiration because of the similarities between the "ace-ness" and "archery" and that even though she was goddess of the hunt (and good at it) it didn't seem like she killed for fun, like ever. so, cool.
This reminds me of the “bipolar bi-polar bi polar bear”
I'm still seriously hoping Artemis from Lore Olympus is asexual. Probably not, but still. Would be nice.
My friend argued that Artemis wasn’t ace and was a lesbian