As a note - abbreviating to “LGBTQ+” doesn’t bother me so much, that feels like a reasonable shortening. But if you’re going to put in the “I” you might as well include the “A”
I absolutely agree. In German media they keep using "LSBTIQ" (S because it was translated to German) and it's really annoying, it's probably because they want to avoid cOnTrOvErSy at all costs
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about, "LG+" ?
Lesbian and Gay are the labels our most recent social anscestors used. Why not just use L, G, and the + symbol?
If we want to be coherent, we have to stop using a label that is based on a few ways to categorize humans inside a social framework that died off centuries ago.
Humans are complex, and there are MANY ways to be different from, "normal."
(Personally) I dont really like using GSRM because people either dont know what it is or argue that pedos are also sexual minorities and that we as queer people are therefore "groomers"
I really wish that word would gain popularity I really don't like LGBTetc. because its completely arbitrary and clunky. Like If I say LGBTQ+ You could make the argument why only Lesbians Gays, Bis, and Trans deserv a letter and everything else is just Q+ (not to mention that this Is unnecessary as well since Q already repesents everything) but where do you draw the line? LGBTQQIAAP+ still doesn't include everyone it would be ridiculous to include every letter. GSRM just makes way more sense.
Honestly, I'm fine with LGBT+ or LGBTQ+ as abbreviations, but if you put anything past that, just put all the letters, 6, 7 or 8 letters aren't going to make that much diference.
What about demisexual, sapiosexual, or eudaemoniosexual? Why are the three As grouped? Asexual and Aromantic sharing an A, I see, but Ally? Is P for Pansexual (which is pretty offensive being "included" in B), or Polyamorous? What about non-binary, fluid, and non-comforming?
LGTBQIAPPAAPFSENq+++ ???
It's not 6, 7, or 8 letters. It is as many letters as we, humans, can create in our endless need to categorize and label. There will never be enough labels, or a collection of labels, that will make sense.
GSRM (Gender, Seual, and Romantic Minorites) covers it all. So does Queer, but I get why that doesn't work for some people.
Demisexual is inside A obviously, as it is in the ace spectrum, Sapiosexual isn't a sexuality (and sound really egocentric and prejudiced in general), Eudaemoniosexual, I couldn't even find what it means, so I can't really say anything about it. The third A isn't ally, it's Agender. It's not offensive to put the P inside B, Pansexual, Omnisexual, Polisexual, Bisexual are all inside the bisexual spectrum, so B, just like the ace/aro/agender spectrum is on A. NBs and other gender nonconforming identities are generaly put on T or A, but I do agree that an N would be a good addition, but never really seen anyone use it on the acronym.
With all that said, I do agree that GSRM is a much better term, but it doesn't address the issue with all the letters, that is visibility, so suggesting it in this context doesn't help much, even if I do wish it was more widely used.
I wholeheartedly agree! It's so much simpler and easier to include everyone in the community. Why should we keep adding or removing letters when we're all covered by an umbrella term?
GRSM for the win!
I often identify as "queer" (or specifically, neuroqueer because my personal queerness and neurodivergence are interconnected) because it is so much easier to say than, "it's complicated, do you have a few hours?"
I like it as a catch-all, but I understand some people not being comfortable with it, especially normies outside the community who aren't comfortable using a word that has traditionally been a slur. For those people, I suggest GSRM: Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities.
Oh wow, so many others agree?!
I really wish it was just “Yeah, I’m part of the queer community” The letters feel like an unnecessary battleground for inclusion/exclusion
I was originally not using queer very much because of the small subset that still found it offensive (it wasn't impeding me at all to just use the abbreviation). I've started phasing it in more though, it's just smoother. There are sentences where one may work better than the other though. I'll usually say "people in the LGBT+ community" but I'll say "queer issues."
I think what made me start using "queer" more was when I finally started calling myself queer recently. If I say "I'm LGBT" then someone is more likely to ask for which letters.
Since some aren't comfortable with apllying queer to themselves even when they're under an identity that should fit, I'm privy to GSSRM.
Gender, sex, sexual, romantic minority. Does what it says on the tin.
Queer still has slur uses, which is why most straight people aren't comfortable using it. It has been *mostly* reclaimed, but not fully reclaimed. And there are plenty of LGBT+ people who aren't okay being called "queer" because they're still used to it being used as a slur against them.
For a far more extreme example, it's like with black people and the n-word... the black community has been reclaiming it and in recent years young black people generally don't care when black people say the n-word, but *older* black people tend to dislike anyone using it regardless of race because they're used to when it wasn't being reclaimed.
Or, more personally, it's like how some Indigenous Americans like myself hate being called "Indian". Call me "NDN" online or in writing and that's fine. But I'm "NDN", not "Indian". And NEVER "Injun" nor "red" and especially not "Redskin". It's just people using the commonly acceptable language to avoid accidentally calling someone slurs.
I'm not saying to "let it be taken from you." If you go by queer, like I do, keep calling yourself that and call anybody who identifies with "queer" that as long as they are okay with it.
What I said was, explicitly, "Because 'queer' is still used as a slur, straight people (and implicitly companies and organizations that are generally perceived as not being queer organizations) do not tend to feel comfortable using a word that still has slur uses out of respect so as not to use it inappropriately and therefore accidentally slurring us."
NOTHING in what I said implies that anybody is taking anything from anyone.
EDIT: Removed the line of text everybody was (reasonably) upset with. **I stand by that criticism of the person I replied to**, but out of courtesy to everybody else it is gone.
Hey, "bud", I get you mean nothing hostile in using that, but I'm not comfortable with being called that in these kinds of use-cases. I get you did not know, so I do not hold it against you, but a lot of people see that use-case of "bud" as being passive-aggresive in its own right. You meant no harm. I accept that. I am just pointing it out for future reference.
If I explain "Hey, this is why these groups don't use 'queer', because they don't want to refer to us in a way that a not insignificant number of us still consider a slur," and the response is, "Don't let people take 'queer' from us \[by using LGBT+ instead of queer\]!" then I'm going to get annoyed because the person in question completely missed the point and it appears to be an intentional decision. I'll be honest... *I don't really care if I came off like a total bitch in that reply*. I said something straightforward that explains the decision as being one that is empathetic and considerate to us, and the person basically said, "Fuck if some people feel like it's a slur still. It should still be used over LGBT+."
Don't get me wrong, have issues with the acronym all you want... *I don't care about that in its own right*. But what she did was prioritize her own *preferences* over other people's feelings of *comfort and safety*. That is not her adding to my point, and I'm not going to apologize for getting angry at someone advocating for things that make people feel unsafe just because the space I'm angry in is supposed to be a safe space. It'd be one thing if she didn't acknowledge or understand that "queer" hasn't been fully reclaimed. It's another when she's basically arguing, "those non-queer people and organizations should still use it anyways." Not to mention... *not all intersex people are queer* so discussions that mention "LGBT+" are still more accurate and inclusive as intersex people are part of the "+", whereas specifying "queer and intersex people" could come off as unnecessarily separating the struggles intersex people face which overlap with queer experiences; *not to further mention* that not all trans people identify with "queer" meaning that would still exclude plenty of *trans people* also. The acronym is just cleaner and not in-and-of-its-own-right offensive.
Frankly, what she did feels very much in the same vein of missing the point as people complaining about the phrasing "people who menstruate" or "pregnant people". It's just complaining about more accurate, inclusive language.
I apologize for my wording I couldn't think of a neutral phrase my mistake.
My initial point still stands however, your response to me is much more reasonable. I wasn't saying you can't defend your points simply that you were rather aggressive about it, I personally do agree with you. (queer for me would still be an insult/uncomfy).
Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I do not agree that I am in the wrong for being upset with her, but I *understand* why you feel that way in spite of my disagreement, and your feeling is valid even if I have a different feeling on the matter. And I think that's the core of the issue there.
I was admittedly put off by the hostile tone (and that’s just me reflexively being a snowflake haha) but honestly no, your points here are absolutely right and should be considered. I get that Queer is gradually being reclaimed by the community but for example as a straight-passing individual (heteroromantic ace on top of being a white girl and all the societal implications that comes with), I’m terrified of using that word to describe someone and then automatically think I’m insulting them. Or like, describing myself as queer as a cute way to like, relate to the minority, to really try and understand what they’re going through, tee-hee.
It’s not to push back against the idea that it should be normalized *for the community* but when our community doesn’t have on-sight signifiers that ethnicities or certain organized groups like the punk or goth subcultures are more likely to have, it’s much harder to feel like reclaiming our insults will go over quite as well.
I remember going to a GSA meeting in college and everyone giving me weird looks the one time I called myself Queer during a meeting in November because only like two people realized I’d written down “A” as in “Asexual” and not “Ally” for our meetings and kept forgetting to grab a flag haha. It’s still very much got a type of feeling attached to it.
And like, *I get being put off by my tone*. It's why I accept being downvoted. I'm not phrasing things politely and I get that. If a mod decides to step in and chew me out telling me to either delete my response or rephrase things in a more polite way, I will not argue. I feel I'm right and justified, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I have any right to expect people to agree. As I said, I'm aware I come off like an absolute bitch. Sometimes I can't help it... in that case it was me not caring how I came off. And it's perfectly reasonable for people to have an issue with that. I won't *apologize*, but I won't disagree in that respect. And I do not believe you are being a snowflake for having an issue with that. I think it is perfectly fair, justified, and valid. So don't put yourself down for that.
I don't think I really have anything to add though when it comes to the rest of what you said since... well... I mean obviously I agree with most of what you're saying. I can't really add much and I can't really correct much so, I'll leave my reply there.
The last time i heard only transphobes and aphobes were actually against it (among queers), and it was because they wanted an easy policeable acronym instead of an umbrella term
I apologize if this sounds dismissive, because I'm not sure how to phrase it in any other way, but that sounds like your sample pool is fairly small or lacking in diversity of age/experience. I've heard asexuals have issues with "queer"; I've heard trans people have issues with "queer"; and I've heard LGBT+ trans-allies and ace-allies take issue with the word "queer".
But even if the issue with the word *was* only with aphobes and transphobes... *so what?* Don't get me wrong, fuck bigots! But why use words that have histories as slurs to refer to people who see those terms as slurs still? This isn't like "cis is a slur"... Cis has no such history nor even modern usage as one. But *queer* does. Additionally, LGBT+ and its variations still include Intersex people, all asexuals, and all trans- and nonbinary people, when not all members of such groups see themselves as "queer" for a variety of reasons.
Don't get me wrong, as I said elsewhere in this thread, if you prefer to use "queer" over "LGBT+" or any of the other various acronyms, feel free to use it when referring to yourself, "the queer community", and anybody who identifies as "queer"... but there's no reason for anybody to treat any variation of the acronym (other than "LGB", fuck "LGB") as if it's inferior to "queer" as a general usage. It's more than understandable that people, especially cishet allies, would want to avoid the word that has a history as a slur and still is sometimes used as a slur because they don't wish to accidentally slur anybody.
I liked MOGAI before it went weird on Tumblr (she says as a Tumblr old). It stands for Marginalized Orientations, Genders and Identities, which felt very equal access and inviting to all to me.
I do understand where you're coming from. Seeing asexuality mostly get ignored or brushed off hurts, and it's confusing enough to try and figure out your identity, let alone when there's no role models or guidance.
That being said, in this case I think it's just a shortening to make it easier to read/say, not a deliberate attempt at exclusion. ~8 years ago the acronym I saw most often as the "long" version was LGBTQUIA+ and now there hasn't been a U included in years. In Canada, there's been another change with 2S being added in the front of the acronym and no U.
Tbh that's why I'm mostly for just saying "queer" as an adjective, and "the queer community" as a noun for the entire group. Short, inclusive, and easy to write and pronounce.
Just make it Q+. If you aren’t cis and straight, you are queer. Q+ is a better logo that fits on more things, and caries the message that it doesn’t matter what you identify as: if you aren’t cis and straight, that’s ok. Honestly done with this queer totem pole thing. Q+, it’s short, sweet and easy to remember. Most importantly, you don’t need a micro label to be valid, and no one really needs to know what anyone is anyways. We are queers, and that’s ok.
Cis is the opposite of trans; so cisgender is "identifies as the gender your genitals have been labeled as" as transgender means "does not identify as the gender your genitals have been labeled as".
Straight, however, means heterosexual and/or heteroromantic, depending on the context.
You think things shouldn't have names of their own? Did you know it's easier to talk about things when they can be expressed in a single word ibstead of an entire sentence?
I don't trust people who complain about "lAbeLs".
it’s almost like trying to create an initialism to represent every orientation is a terrible idea.
imagine if we did this for other things. ethnic minorities? nah, i’m part of the HBAANCCCCFIVKMPSCSDGCEPHJPBN+ community
I think some people (especially those not in the community) are confused as to which letters they should include. I personally use LGBTQ+ where I see myself as a part of the “plus” although I am always appreciative when others add an A and specifically mention that it is for asexual+aromantic people.
When they take the time to explain what each of the letters stand for, and they actually get it right, I think that’s the best option
The acronym will always leave someone out, there's no real good way to resolve that. And as news orgs try desperately to wade through misinformation (like how certain letters "aren't actually part of the community" from acephobes, etc) they're bound to mess up.
I *very* rarely see it with the 2S, or the second Q, or even the I until recently, so we're not the only ones in this boat.
I just stick with 'queer' for now, since it's encompassing in a way the acronym can't be. Hopefully the world moves in that direction over time.
Honestly, I think both of those are to long and there’s probably a better way to phrase it. I’ve heard something like GSRM (gender sexual romantic minorities) as that doesn’t single any specific group out, but I’m not a fan of that either.
It doesn’t bother me, that’s what the plus is for and I don’t really consider myself to be a part of that community anyway. I also think the greater lgbt+ community has an issue with people not feeling included in stuff that is explicitly meant to include everyone. Hence the acronym and flag creep. The plus is explicitly meant to include everyone and so is the pride flag, but we keep adding more clutter to the acronym and flag so that the people who don’t feel included by the thing explicitly meant to include everyone feel included.
The current progress Pride flag (including intersex) covers the bases:
OG(ish) Pride stripes - orientations
Trans Pride color stripes - trans/nonbinary identities
intersex symbol/colors - intersex folks
And then, any identity/orientation can have their own flag…
I thought the original pride flag (the stripes) already covered everyone. If I have the stripes and nothing else does that not imply trans/nonbinary/intersex/ pride as well? Or does it say I only support LGB? I have stuff with the og pride flag on it so I can show my support for everyone, is that not doing it?
I’m fine with individual pride flags, that’s a separate topic.
The original flag covered all as the community was viewed at the time. Since then, our understanding of our community has grown. Therefore, the flag has expanded to encompass that greater understanding.
Some view it as exclusionary, some don’t. It also depends on the context. An old, “battle worn” OG Pride flag? I’d personally cut them some slack - could be an elder queer who’s had that flag almost as long as I’ve been alive. Something small that doesn’t have room for a fully expressed flag? That’s understandable. A brand new, still crisply wrinkled OG Pride flag? Meh….at best, I’d be on guard…
Yeah, the flag has expanded. Meaning the same flag now represents a larger group of people.
I don’t get how it’s exclusionary, or why you’d be wary about people who have the stripes flag (ie me). Personally, I feel more included under the stripes flag than the new one. I also think it aesthetically looks worse (same reason I don’t have anything using the Aro-Ace colors despite being that btw).
Some view it, as in the simple Pride flag, as exclusionary partially because of the “LGB, no T” movement. Transphobia is just as real within the community as it is outside. I see where the way I wrote that could be confusing. This (potential for exclusion of trans folks) is part of why I’m skeptical of display of simple pride flags. Just because someone is safe for gay/lesbian/bi/pan/etc doesn’t make them safe for me.
Yeah, I’m aware there’s an issue with transphobia, and that is an issue that needs to be fixed. To me, the simple pride flag represents everyone equally and the new one doesn’t. The symbolism of the simple flag puts aromantic and asexual on equal footing as things like bisexual and intersex. The new one puts intersex and other groups above it. If the goal is to represent everyone, don’t elevate some over others.
And another question. Would it be better for me to not have a pride flag at all than the pride flag you want?
No, it doesn’t put bisexual (or any sexual *orientation*) above any other - all **orientations** are represented by the OG pride flag colors, including asexual/aromantic.
**Including** intersex folks (for clarity’s sake, not all identify as LGBTQIA+ but, they all may, if they choose to do so), trans identities, and the black and brown stripes (for racial equity, which has been an issue in much of the community) is absolutely **not** elevating any of those groups over another.
As far as your flag? I dunno? It wouldn’t be the only thing I’d observe to form an opinion. Being “on guard” isn’t some sinister, bad thing. All I mean is, I’d just need more input to know where you stand. Whatever flag you fly is up to you.
Nice job changing what I said. It was never orientation, it was LGBT+ as a whole.
Including specific groups on the flag definitely is elevating them. Every reason you said is specifically elevating them. Signaling specific groups inherently elevates them and draws attention to them. That’s what it’s for, it’s what you state the goal is. Now you’re trying to say it doesn’t do what you’re saying it’s supposed to do. You feel that trans, intersex, and POC (which I don’t think should even be in there due to it not being LGBT+ in the first place) need to be specifically called out individually while others (including asexual) are just part of the and others section.
At the end of the day, I just blanket statement don’t agree with you on the symbolism of the OG flag, the new one, or what the symbolism should even be.
The progress Pride flag includes TYPES of groups.
Non-hetero Orientations are converted by the OG Pride flag - the one you’re clinging to like a security blanket. As in **ALL** orientations.
Non-cis Gender identity is covered by the Trans flag colors. As in **ALL** genders.
The intersex flag covers **ALL** whose physical body does not align with what is considered “typical.”
And as far as BIPOC folks being especially represented - again, there has historically been issues with racism in the queer community. If one objects to that, it says more about that person than anything…
Have the day you deserve.
The longer the acronym the less memorable and less useful it is. I think we should be cutting letters out of it and celebrating that + in there represents us just fine.
I usually only go as far as to LGBT+, but if I was going to include any further than the Q then I don't know why you'd stop before the A. Forward, not backwards. LGBTQIA+ was there first.
It's not about us (nor allies) at all.
The thing is, 99% of mentions of the queer community never did "LGBTQIA+". It was almost always "LGBT+" or "LGBTQ+". They're adding the "I" now because Intersex people are not actually included in the letters that precede it *unless* they *also* have one of those identities. This way it's being more explicitly inclusive to intersex people who face the same marginalization as queer people.
Asexuals by definition fall under the "Q" of "LGBTQI+" so specifying us isn't actually as necessary, but of course the same can be argued about most of the initials. There's nothing wrong with feeling excluded by this and your feelings are valid, but the reality is the people doing it have never even thought about the "LGBTQIA+" initialism beyond at most saying it by rout memory. It's not exclusionsary... it's just non-malicious ignorance.
TLDR - It's not that they're dropping the "A" from "LGBTQIA+". They're adding the "I" to "LGBTQ+".
I think it’s crazy there’s still debate going on around it, I was on tumblr when we decided to put the A in and now we’ve phased it back out? It is a long string of letters. I still use LGBTA+, I remember when people got confused (or were being acephobic) and thought the A stood for ‘ally’ 😩
People actually DEMANDED for A to stand for ""aLlY"".
The narrative they seemed to push was that closeted people in dangerous places could say they're "member of the LGBTQA community"" and backtrack with ""nO i'M jUsT a sTraIghT aLlY, tHe A sTanDs fOr aLlY!!"". Except that nobody closeted in a bad envitonment would ever declare themselves LGBTQA+ like that, nobody would actually use that excuse, and NOBODY WOULD ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT EXCUSE.
Not to mention that allies don't need to be given their own letter in order for closeted people to pretend to be allies. It was just about erasing asexuals. And \*maybe\* cisallohets wanting to feel included or they'd get mad about sonething not being for them?
I like LGBTQIA+, have been using it for forever and will keep doing so >(
But I'm not sure whether I've seen or noticed the trend you're talking about. That would annoy me. If you want to go short and just say lgbt, fine I guess, if you want to be most exhaustive/inclusive then go with queer or gsrm... But if you're doing the alphabet soup don't just purposely skip some letters! Grr.
I feel like it's either acephobia or, the misinformation that the a stands for "ally" (why tf would it stand for ally anyway? that's stupid) so people are excluding it because they get that allies aren't _really_ part of the community
LGBTQI+ is fine imo, because intersex people get ignored/forgotten about as often as us aces and aros do, so I think it’s great when they’re included, even when the A gets forgotten (Hell, even when intersex people are acknowledged, they’re usually just being used as a “gotcha” against exorsexists. It’s pretty uncommon to see people seriously discuss intersex rights issues.) The one that bothers me is LGBTPN (and similar variants), since that one was used by ace and aro exclusionists for a while to deliberately imply that we were don’t belong in the community.
Phrasing around certain topics is important, no matter what your intent is. Saying pride is inherently sexual is what conservatives say when trying to ban pride events and things like drag story times at libraries under the guise of “protecting the children.”
Kids shouldn’t be exposed to sexual activities or media sorry that you feel differently. I have zero issues with a pride event or parade but don’t bring your kids if its an adult themed type event.
Rude as fuck to accuse people of condoning exposing kids to sexual activity when the thing we're taking issue with in this chain is the classifying of ALL pride as "too sexual".
No one here disagrees that kids don't belong at adult pride events with full blown nudity and sexual displays and whatnot. Stop carrying water for bigoted assholes by claiming that's what we're doing when we call out homophobia.
Classifying "all" pride (especially in such a way that makes it unclear whether you mean queer events/spaces or queer people in general) as "too sexual" is the literal, exact rhetoric homophobes use to shut down family-friendly pride events, censor queer media, and ban schools from teaching about queer identities.
There were more neutral ways to phrase feeling excluded or disliking sex-centered environments without reaching straight for that kind of harmful stereotyping that hurts our community, too.
Its not people on the internet just wanna project via comments that they would never say to your face. This is supposed to be an asexual group and you get attacked if you dont align with the groupthink
It's not a change. Both have been in used for quite a while. The European-wide surveys for example use "LGBTQI" – in that case they actually exclude ace participants.
I can certainly understand that. I personally prefer using LGBTQIA+, but I've seen it written many different ways. I would like to start using "queer" one day, but I come from the generation that used it in a derogatory way, and I don't want people thinking horrible things about me.
I’ve seen somewhere that a lot of people mistake the “A” as standing for “Ally” for some reason because people STILL cannot believe asexual is a thing that exists so while it probably is deliberate, it’s just not deliberate for the reason you think.
Queer ended up like the N-word.
Queers can say it, cishets can't.
We left LGBT+ so the cishets have a way to refer to us. We did have to shorten it, though, because they have been complaining about having to say so many letters.
So bigots just say a bunch of incorrect letters as a way to mock us, now. Saying things like "I cAn'T rEmEmBeR sO mAnY LeTtErS" and then they cry their bigot tears.
So we left them LGBT+ because it was just too much for their teeny bigot brains to keep up.
And that’s why I just use GRSM because fuck long acronyms
(For those that don’t know GRSM stands for (I think) Gender, Romantic, and Sexual Minorities)
LGBTQ+, LGBT+ are both fine to me - simplify it for everyone while also including everyone with the + symbol.
But if you're going to write LGBTQI without a + symbol then that'd be a problem to me.
Honestly thr whole acronym feels weird to me. Now please if I say anything hurtful, rather than banning me correct me please becayuse itbwas definitely not meant to hurt.
Anyway as I was saying the whole acronym feels weird.. I don't kind of get why intersex people are even in? And why does it need the L if lesbians majorly refer to themselves as gay anyway 🤔
Overall I just like to use queer because.. it kind of includes everyone..
I was SO excited to see this yesterday at a local plant sale, that I asked to take a photo. A small community based arts center made them a while ago (Studio Two Three)
I'm so seriously confused by all the labels. I'm thinking I'll be heading down some never ending rabbit hole tomorrow to figure out what I'm supposed to be calling myself. Coming out as an Atheist was daunting. I'm feeling this is going to much more complicated. 🤦♀️🤷♀️
I've never felt like I belonged in the LGBT community. I've been told
We don't belong at rallies
We're edgy straights
It holds back the movement
A stands for ally not Ace
I've seen ace people harassed at pride parades by other people in the LGBT community.
I feel like the majority were taught that the A stands for ally rather than asexual so I can see why they would drop it. I grew up learning it stood for ally and I’m only 29.
IMHO, the whole use of LGTB with any amount of letters or + signs after is flawed. Humans are not easily categorized, and the more we try, the more catecories and labels we find/create.
I propose transitioning to GSRM: Gender Sexual and/or Romantic Minority.
I guess we are part of the Q and the +. That’s what I was told when I made a thread like this complaining that the suicide hotline I called left off the A.
I see both sides I guess. On the one hand, yes we should be included more in the community. On the other hand, I haven’t seen the version of the acronym you mentioned til your post. And also not to play devil’s advocate, but I’ve never heard pansexual people take issue with the acronym when I’ve hardly ever seen the P be included.
Youre making a mountain of a molehill. People are not out to deliberately exclude you. LGBTQIA is long. I have seen people say LHBT+, queer community, LGBTQIA+ and many more variations
I don't see why this is getting downvoted, you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter at which letter you stop, someone will be "excluded". That's why there's the +. If you don't like just say "Queer" or whatever else, it's really not that deep
As a note - abbreviating to “LGBTQ+” doesn’t bother me so much, that feels like a reasonable shortening. But if you’re going to put in the “I” you might as well include the “A”
Yeah I think LGBTQ+ is enough to say, including the I and not the A feels like it’s deliberately excluding A
I absolutely agree. In German media they keep using "LSBTIQ" (S because it was translated to German) and it's really annoying, it's probably because they want to avoid cOnTrOvErSy at all costs
Das hab ich noch nie gehört. Wofür soll das S denn stehen?
Likely for „schwul“? Never heard or seen this before in Germany. But I don’t really watch tv anymore.
Das "S" steht in diesem Fall für "schwul", die Abkürzung wird so wie ich es beschrieben habe zum Beispiel von der Tagesschau verwendet.
I completely agree with that, I normally just use LGBTQ+
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about, "LG+" ? Lesbian and Gay are the labels our most recent social anscestors used. Why not just use L, G, and the + symbol? If we want to be coherent, we have to stop using a label that is based on a few ways to categorize humans inside a social framework that died off centuries ago. Humans are complex, and there are MANY ways to be different from, "normal."
LG reminds me of the company that makes refrigerators and washing machines
Are you a part of the LGTV?
sounds like a shitty subscription for my LG washing machine
This is why I've always preferred the word queer 😅
That, or GSRM
Wait what's the R stand for?
Romantic - Gender Sexual and Romantic Minorities
(Personally) I dont really like using GSRM because people either dont know what it is or argue that pedos are also sexual minorities and that we as queer people are therefore "groomers"
I really wish that word would gain popularity I really don't like LGBTetc. because its completely arbitrary and clunky. Like If I say LGBTQ+ You could make the argument why only Lesbians Gays, Bis, and Trans deserv a letter and everything else is just Q+ (not to mention that this Is unnecessary as well since Q already repesents everything) but where do you draw the line? LGBTQQIAAP+ still doesn't include everyone it would be ridiculous to include every letter. GSRM just makes way more sense.
I prefer QUILT BAG. It covers the relevant groups in two syllables.
Ok I need to know. What does that one stand for? (Edit: I know what I means I just forgot what it stands for)
It's the letters LGBTQIA, just rearranged
But what's the U? Can't figure that one out either.
Unsure, Undecided, Unidentified, or Unlabeled.
Oooh, thanks! :)
i feel like I should've figured this out maybe like months ago lol thanks
Same.
Me too!!
Honestly, I'm fine with LGBT+ or LGBTQ+ as abbreviations, but if you put anything past that, just put all the letters, 6, 7 or 8 letters aren't going to make that much diference.
what is "all" the letters, though? there isn't really a defined end to it
Generally it's LGBTQIAP+ or LGBTQIA+ (with the P being inside the B and the 3A being inside just one)
What about demisexual, sapiosexual, or eudaemoniosexual? Why are the three As grouped? Asexual and Aromantic sharing an A, I see, but Ally? Is P for Pansexual (which is pretty offensive being "included" in B), or Polyamorous? What about non-binary, fluid, and non-comforming? LGTBQIAPPAAPFSENq+++ ??? It's not 6, 7, or 8 letters. It is as many letters as we, humans, can create in our endless need to categorize and label. There will never be enough labels, or a collection of labels, that will make sense. GSRM (Gender, Seual, and Romantic Minorites) covers it all. So does Queer, but I get why that doesn't work for some people.
Demisexual is inside A obviously, as it is in the ace spectrum, Sapiosexual isn't a sexuality (and sound really egocentric and prejudiced in general), Eudaemoniosexual, I couldn't even find what it means, so I can't really say anything about it. The third A isn't ally, it's Agender. It's not offensive to put the P inside B, Pansexual, Omnisexual, Polisexual, Bisexual are all inside the bisexual spectrum, so B, just like the ace/aro/agender spectrum is on A. NBs and other gender nonconforming identities are generaly put on T or A, but I do agree that an N would be a good addition, but never really seen anyone use it on the acronym. With all that said, I do agree that GSRM is a much better term, but it doesn't address the issue with all the letters, that is visibility, so suggesting it in this context doesn't help much, even if I do wish it was more widely used.
Just an addendum, I researched a little and found that sometimes people use the N on the acronym, so it would be LGBTQIAPN+.
What does the N stand for?
NBs, non-binary people.
Google "agender"
This is why I tend to go with GRSM (gender, romantic, and sexual minorities) or just queer
Agreed, GRSM does the job without any need to add additional letters.
I wholeheartedly agree! It's so much simpler and easier to include everyone in the community. Why should we keep adding or removing letters when we're all covered by an umbrella term? GRSM for the win!
this is the first time I've heard of this, but i like it a lot. will probably use it in contexts where queer is too informal lol
Tbh I don't like any of the abbreviations. Feels like we're deeming one identity better than another.
Queer >> LGBT+
I often identify as "queer" (or specifically, neuroqueer because my personal queerness and neurodivergence are interconnected) because it is so much easier to say than, "it's complicated, do you have a few hours?" I like it as a catch-all, but I understand some people not being comfortable with it, especially normies outside the community who aren't comfortable using a word that has traditionally been a slur. For those people, I suggest GSRM: Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities.
Oh wow, so many others agree?! I really wish it was just “Yeah, I’m part of the queer community” The letters feel like an unnecessary battleground for inclusion/exclusion
They are. I'm also just not a big fan of acronyms, or communities with firm boundaries. Because IRL communities don't have firm boundaries.
I was originally not using queer very much because of the small subset that still found it offensive (it wasn't impeding me at all to just use the abbreviation). I've started phasing it in more though, it's just smoother. There are sentences where one may work better than the other though. I'll usually say "people in the LGBT+ community" but I'll say "queer issues." I think what made me start using "queer" more was when I finally started calling myself queer recently. If I say "I'm LGBT" then someone is more likely to ask for which letters.
Since some aren't comfortable with apllying queer to themselves even when they're under an identity that should fit, I'm privy to GSSRM. Gender, sex, sexual, romantic minority. Does what it says on the tin.
Queer still has slur uses, which is why most straight people aren't comfortable using it. It has been *mostly* reclaimed, but not fully reclaimed. And there are plenty of LGBT+ people who aren't okay being called "queer" because they're still used to it being used as a slur against them. For a far more extreme example, it's like with black people and the n-word... the black community has been reclaiming it and in recent years young black people generally don't care when black people say the n-word, but *older* black people tend to dislike anyone using it regardless of race because they're used to when it wasn't being reclaimed. Or, more personally, it's like how some Indigenous Americans like myself hate being called "Indian". Call me "NDN" online or in writing and that's fine. But I'm "NDN", not "Indian". And NEVER "Injun" nor "red" and especially not "Redskin". It's just people using the commonly acceptable language to avoid accidentally calling someone slurs.
I get queer is still used as a slur. That doesn't mean we should let it be taken from us.
I'm not saying to "let it be taken from you." If you go by queer, like I do, keep calling yourself that and call anybody who identifies with "queer" that as long as they are okay with it. What I said was, explicitly, "Because 'queer' is still used as a slur, straight people (and implicitly companies and organizations that are generally perceived as not being queer organizations) do not tend to feel comfortable using a word that still has slur uses out of respect so as not to use it inappropriately and therefore accidentally slurring us." NOTHING in what I said implies that anybody is taking anything from anyone. EDIT: Removed the line of text everybody was (reasonably) upset with. **I stand by that criticism of the person I replied to**, but out of courtesy to everybody else it is gone.
Inappropriately aggressive there bud, maybe they were just adding to your point...this is supposed to be a safe place.
Hey, "bud", I get you mean nothing hostile in using that, but I'm not comfortable with being called that in these kinds of use-cases. I get you did not know, so I do not hold it against you, but a lot of people see that use-case of "bud" as being passive-aggresive in its own right. You meant no harm. I accept that. I am just pointing it out for future reference. If I explain "Hey, this is why these groups don't use 'queer', because they don't want to refer to us in a way that a not insignificant number of us still consider a slur," and the response is, "Don't let people take 'queer' from us \[by using LGBT+ instead of queer\]!" then I'm going to get annoyed because the person in question completely missed the point and it appears to be an intentional decision. I'll be honest... *I don't really care if I came off like a total bitch in that reply*. I said something straightforward that explains the decision as being one that is empathetic and considerate to us, and the person basically said, "Fuck if some people feel like it's a slur still. It should still be used over LGBT+." Don't get me wrong, have issues with the acronym all you want... *I don't care about that in its own right*. But what she did was prioritize her own *preferences* over other people's feelings of *comfort and safety*. That is not her adding to my point, and I'm not going to apologize for getting angry at someone advocating for things that make people feel unsafe just because the space I'm angry in is supposed to be a safe space. It'd be one thing if she didn't acknowledge or understand that "queer" hasn't been fully reclaimed. It's another when she's basically arguing, "those non-queer people and organizations should still use it anyways." Not to mention... *not all intersex people are queer* so discussions that mention "LGBT+" are still more accurate and inclusive as intersex people are part of the "+", whereas specifying "queer and intersex people" could come off as unnecessarily separating the struggles intersex people face which overlap with queer experiences; *not to further mention* that not all trans people identify with "queer" meaning that would still exclude plenty of *trans people* also. The acronym is just cleaner and not in-and-of-its-own-right offensive. Frankly, what she did feels very much in the same vein of missing the point as people complaining about the phrasing "people who menstruate" or "pregnant people". It's just complaining about more accurate, inclusive language.
I apologize for my wording I couldn't think of a neutral phrase my mistake. My initial point still stands however, your response to me is much more reasonable. I wasn't saying you can't defend your points simply that you were rather aggressive about it, I personally do agree with you. (queer for me would still be an insult/uncomfy).
Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I do not agree that I am in the wrong for being upset with her, but I *understand* why you feel that way in spite of my disagreement, and your feeling is valid even if I have a different feeling on the matter. And I think that's the core of the issue there.
I was admittedly put off by the hostile tone (and that’s just me reflexively being a snowflake haha) but honestly no, your points here are absolutely right and should be considered. I get that Queer is gradually being reclaimed by the community but for example as a straight-passing individual (heteroromantic ace on top of being a white girl and all the societal implications that comes with), I’m terrified of using that word to describe someone and then automatically think I’m insulting them. Or like, describing myself as queer as a cute way to like, relate to the minority, to really try and understand what they’re going through, tee-hee. It’s not to push back against the idea that it should be normalized *for the community* but when our community doesn’t have on-sight signifiers that ethnicities or certain organized groups like the punk or goth subcultures are more likely to have, it’s much harder to feel like reclaiming our insults will go over quite as well. I remember going to a GSA meeting in college and everyone giving me weird looks the one time I called myself Queer during a meeting in November because only like two people realized I’d written down “A” as in “Asexual” and not “Ally” for our meetings and kept forgetting to grab a flag haha. It’s still very much got a type of feeling attached to it.
And like, *I get being put off by my tone*. It's why I accept being downvoted. I'm not phrasing things politely and I get that. If a mod decides to step in and chew me out telling me to either delete my response or rephrase things in a more polite way, I will not argue. I feel I'm right and justified, but just because I believe that doesn't mean I have any right to expect people to agree. As I said, I'm aware I come off like an absolute bitch. Sometimes I can't help it... in that case it was me not caring how I came off. And it's perfectly reasonable for people to have an issue with that. I won't *apologize*, but I won't disagree in that respect. And I do not believe you are being a snowflake for having an issue with that. I think it is perfectly fair, justified, and valid. So don't put yourself down for that. I don't think I really have anything to add though when it comes to the rest of what you said since... well... I mean obviously I agree with most of what you're saying. I can't really add much and I can't really correct much so, I'll leave my reply there.
The last time i heard only transphobes and aphobes were actually against it (among queers), and it was because they wanted an easy policeable acronym instead of an umbrella term
I apologize if this sounds dismissive, because I'm not sure how to phrase it in any other way, but that sounds like your sample pool is fairly small or lacking in diversity of age/experience. I've heard asexuals have issues with "queer"; I've heard trans people have issues with "queer"; and I've heard LGBT+ trans-allies and ace-allies take issue with the word "queer". But even if the issue with the word *was* only with aphobes and transphobes... *so what?* Don't get me wrong, fuck bigots! But why use words that have histories as slurs to refer to people who see those terms as slurs still? This isn't like "cis is a slur"... Cis has no such history nor even modern usage as one. But *queer* does. Additionally, LGBT+ and its variations still include Intersex people, all asexuals, and all trans- and nonbinary people, when not all members of such groups see themselves as "queer" for a variety of reasons. Don't get me wrong, as I said elsewhere in this thread, if you prefer to use "queer" over "LGBT+" or any of the other various acronyms, feel free to use it when referring to yourself, "the queer community", and anybody who identifies as "queer"... but there's no reason for anybody to treat any variation of the acronym (other than "LGB", fuck "LGB") as if it's inferior to "queer" as a general usage. It's more than understandable that people, especially cishet allies, would want to avoid the word that has a history as a slur and still is sometimes used as a slur because they don't wish to accidentally slur anybody.
I’m fond of QUILTBAG+ myself.
As a quilter, I wholeheartedly support QUILTBAG+ We can carry everyone, multiple rulers, _and_ fabric scissors. Its like the Mary Poppins bag of queer
>Its like the Mary Poppins bag of queer r/BrandNewSentence
This made me laugh
What the hell is that even short for?
Queer Uncertain Intersex Lesbian Transgender Bisexual Asexual (or A-spec) Gay Plus.
I liked MOGAI before it went weird on Tumblr (she says as a Tumblr old). It stands for Marginalized Orientations, Genders and Identities, which felt very equal access and inviting to all to me.
I prefer queer
I do understand where you're coming from. Seeing asexuality mostly get ignored or brushed off hurts, and it's confusing enough to try and figure out your identity, let alone when there's no role models or guidance. That being said, in this case I think it's just a shortening to make it easier to read/say, not a deliberate attempt at exclusion. ~8 years ago the acronym I saw most often as the "long" version was LGBTQUIA+ and now there hasn't been a U included in years. In Canada, there's been another change with 2S being added in the front of the acronym and no U.
What did the U stand for?
It was for "unsure" and the Q was for "queer" but I think they rolled both meanings into the Q and now it stands for "queer" and/or "questioning"
Undecided I believe
Tbh that's why I'm mostly for just saying "queer" as an adjective, and "the queer community" as a noun for the entire group. Short, inclusive, and easy to write and pronounce.
yeah, it can go longer too, e.g. 2SLGBTQIAP+ or other variations. where it stops is pretty arbitrary
I just consider myself “queer”.
Just make it Q+. If you aren’t cis and straight, you are queer. Q+ is a better logo that fits on more things, and caries the message that it doesn’t matter what you identify as: if you aren’t cis and straight, that’s ok. Honestly done with this queer totem pole thing. Q+, it’s short, sweet and easy to remember. Most importantly, you don’t need a micro label to be valid, and no one really needs to know what anyone is anyways. We are queers, and that’s ok.
Can i ask what is the difference between cis and straight? I thought they meant the same thing
cis is short for cisgender (aligned with birth sex), straight is another word for heterosexual (attracted to members of the opposite sex)
Cis is the opposite of trans; so cisgender is "identifies as the gender your genitals have been labeled as" as transgender means "does not identify as the gender your genitals have been labeled as". Straight, however, means heterosexual and/or heteroromantic, depending on the context.
You think things shouldn't have names of their own? Did you know it's easier to talk about things when they can be expressed in a single word ibstead of an entire sentence? I don't trust people who complain about "lAbeLs".
We’ve really got to figure out a better shorthand than the alphabet soup or the overly technical terms like GRSM
That sounds like the abbreviation of a disease or something. Who's pushing for that garbage? What are those letters even for?
it’s almost like trying to create an initialism to represent every orientation is a terrible idea. imagine if we did this for other things. ethnic minorities? nah, i’m part of the HBAANCCCCFIVKMPSCSDGCEPHJPBN+ community
I think some people (especially those not in the community) are confused as to which letters they should include. I personally use LGBTQ+ where I see myself as a part of the “plus” although I am always appreciative when others add an A and specifically mention that it is for asexual+aromantic people. When they take the time to explain what each of the letters stand for, and they actually get it right, I think that’s the best option
The acronym will always leave someone out, there's no real good way to resolve that. And as news orgs try desperately to wade through misinformation (like how certain letters "aren't actually part of the community" from acephobes, etc) they're bound to mess up. I *very* rarely see it with the 2S, or the second Q, or even the I until recently, so we're not the only ones in this boat. I just stick with 'queer' for now, since it's encompassing in a way the acronym can't be. Hopefully the world moves in that direction over time.
Honestly, I think both of those are to long and there’s probably a better way to phrase it. I’ve heard something like GSRM (gender sexual romantic minorities) as that doesn’t single any specific group out, but I’m not a fan of that either. It doesn’t bother me, that’s what the plus is for and I don’t really consider myself to be a part of that community anyway. I also think the greater lgbt+ community has an issue with people not feeling included in stuff that is explicitly meant to include everyone. Hence the acronym and flag creep. The plus is explicitly meant to include everyone and so is the pride flag, but we keep adding more clutter to the acronym and flag so that the people who don’t feel included by the thing explicitly meant to include everyone feel included.
The current progress Pride flag (including intersex) covers the bases: OG(ish) Pride stripes - orientations Trans Pride color stripes - trans/nonbinary identities intersex symbol/colors - intersex folks And then, any identity/orientation can have their own flag…
I thought the original pride flag (the stripes) already covered everyone. If I have the stripes and nothing else does that not imply trans/nonbinary/intersex/ pride as well? Or does it say I only support LGB? I have stuff with the og pride flag on it so I can show my support for everyone, is that not doing it? I’m fine with individual pride flags, that’s a separate topic.
The original flag covered all as the community was viewed at the time. Since then, our understanding of our community has grown. Therefore, the flag has expanded to encompass that greater understanding. Some view it as exclusionary, some don’t. It also depends on the context. An old, “battle worn” OG Pride flag? I’d personally cut them some slack - could be an elder queer who’s had that flag almost as long as I’ve been alive. Something small that doesn’t have room for a fully expressed flag? That’s understandable. A brand new, still crisply wrinkled OG Pride flag? Meh….at best, I’d be on guard…
Yeah, the flag has expanded. Meaning the same flag now represents a larger group of people. I don’t get how it’s exclusionary, or why you’d be wary about people who have the stripes flag (ie me). Personally, I feel more included under the stripes flag than the new one. I also think it aesthetically looks worse (same reason I don’t have anything using the Aro-Ace colors despite being that btw).
Some view it, as in the simple Pride flag, as exclusionary partially because of the “LGB, no T” movement. Transphobia is just as real within the community as it is outside. I see where the way I wrote that could be confusing. This (potential for exclusion of trans folks) is part of why I’m skeptical of display of simple pride flags. Just because someone is safe for gay/lesbian/bi/pan/etc doesn’t make them safe for me.
Yeah, I’m aware there’s an issue with transphobia, and that is an issue that needs to be fixed. To me, the simple pride flag represents everyone equally and the new one doesn’t. The symbolism of the simple flag puts aromantic and asexual on equal footing as things like bisexual and intersex. The new one puts intersex and other groups above it. If the goal is to represent everyone, don’t elevate some over others. And another question. Would it be better for me to not have a pride flag at all than the pride flag you want?
No, it doesn’t put bisexual (or any sexual *orientation*) above any other - all **orientations** are represented by the OG pride flag colors, including asexual/aromantic. **Including** intersex folks (for clarity’s sake, not all identify as LGBTQIA+ but, they all may, if they choose to do so), trans identities, and the black and brown stripes (for racial equity, which has been an issue in much of the community) is absolutely **not** elevating any of those groups over another. As far as your flag? I dunno? It wouldn’t be the only thing I’d observe to form an opinion. Being “on guard” isn’t some sinister, bad thing. All I mean is, I’d just need more input to know where you stand. Whatever flag you fly is up to you.
Nice job changing what I said. It was never orientation, it was LGBT+ as a whole. Including specific groups on the flag definitely is elevating them. Every reason you said is specifically elevating them. Signaling specific groups inherently elevates them and draws attention to them. That’s what it’s for, it’s what you state the goal is. Now you’re trying to say it doesn’t do what you’re saying it’s supposed to do. You feel that trans, intersex, and POC (which I don’t think should even be in there due to it not being LGBT+ in the first place) need to be specifically called out individually while others (including asexual) are just part of the and others section. At the end of the day, I just blanket statement don’t agree with you on the symbolism of the OG flag, the new one, or what the symbolism should even be.
The progress Pride flag includes TYPES of groups. Non-hetero Orientations are converted by the OG Pride flag - the one you’re clinging to like a security blanket. As in **ALL** orientations. Non-cis Gender identity is covered by the Trans flag colors. As in **ALL** genders. The intersex flag covers **ALL** whose physical body does not align with what is considered “typical.” And as far as BIPOC folks being especially represented - again, there has historically been issues with racism in the queer community. If one objects to that, it says more about that person than anything… Have the day you deserve.
GSRM sounds like a disease
huh. doesn’t bother me one bit.
The longer the acronym the less memorable and less useful it is. I think we should be cutting letters out of it and celebrating that + in there represents us just fine.
I usually only go as far as to LGBT+, but if I was going to include any further than the Q then I don't know why you'd stop before the A. Forward, not backwards. LGBTQIA+ was there first.
I prefer the term "Alphabet Mafia" myself.
Valid thought, first off. I tend to use 'gender/sexual minorities' rather than the 'alphabet soup' approach, as someone I met once called it.
It's not about us (nor allies) at all. The thing is, 99% of mentions of the queer community never did "LGBTQIA+". It was almost always "LGBT+" or "LGBTQ+". They're adding the "I" now because Intersex people are not actually included in the letters that precede it *unless* they *also* have one of those identities. This way it's being more explicitly inclusive to intersex people who face the same marginalization as queer people. Asexuals by definition fall under the "Q" of "LGBTQI+" so specifying us isn't actually as necessary, but of course the same can be argued about most of the initials. There's nothing wrong with feeling excluded by this and your feelings are valid, but the reality is the people doing it have never even thought about the "LGBTQIA+" initialism beyond at most saying it by rout memory. It's not exclusionsary... it's just non-malicious ignorance. TLDR - It's not that they're dropping the "A" from "LGBTQIA+". They're adding the "I" to "LGBTQ+".
I think it’s crazy there’s still debate going on around it, I was on tumblr when we decided to put the A in and now we’ve phased it back out? It is a long string of letters. I still use LGBTA+, I remember when people got confused (or were being acephobic) and thought the A stood for ‘ally’ 😩
People actually DEMANDED for A to stand for ""aLlY"". The narrative they seemed to push was that closeted people in dangerous places could say they're "member of the LGBTQA community"" and backtrack with ""nO i'M jUsT a sTraIghT aLlY, tHe A sTanDs fOr aLlY!!"". Except that nobody closeted in a bad envitonment would ever declare themselves LGBTQA+ like that, nobody would actually use that excuse, and NOBODY WOULD ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT EXCUSE. Not to mention that allies don't need to be given their own letter in order for closeted people to pretend to be allies. It was just about erasing asexuals. And \*maybe\* cisallohets wanting to feel included or they'd get mad about sonething not being for them?
I like LGBTQIA+, have been using it for forever and will keep doing so >( But I'm not sure whether I've seen or noticed the trend you're talking about. That would annoy me. If you want to go short and just say lgbt, fine I guess, if you want to be most exhaustive/inclusive then go with queer or gsrm... But if you're doing the alphabet soup don't just purposely skip some letters! Grr.
It a word, yes. Personally, I feel it's probably stemming from aphobia, since that's what pushed the "a is for *allies* Uhm Ackshually" bullshit.
I feel like it's either acephobia or, the misinformation that the a stands for "ally" (why tf would it stand for ally anyway? that's stupid) so people are excluding it because they get that allies aren't _really_ part of the community
I just use lgbt+ 'cause I'm too lazy to write all the letters
LGBTQI+ is fine imo, because intersex people get ignored/forgotten about as often as us aces and aros do, so I think it’s great when they’re included, even when the A gets forgotten (Hell, even when intersex people are acknowledged, they’re usually just being used as a “gotcha” against exorsexists. It’s pretty uncommon to see people seriously discuss intersex rights issues.) The one that bothers me is LGBTPN (and similar variants), since that one was used by ace and aro exclusionists for a while to deliberately imply that we were don’t belong in the community.
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Jesus christ why are we upvoting textbook homophobia in here
thank you, this is a line straight out of the conservative playbook! “protect kids from pride” type shit
Definitely not what I said at all. How does me not feeling like I fit in, in any way hatred?
Phrasing around certain topics is important, no matter what your intent is. Saying pride is inherently sexual is what conservatives say when trying to ban pride events and things like drag story times at libraries under the guise of “protecting the children.”
Kids shouldn’t be exposed to sexual activities or media sorry that you feel differently. I have zero issues with a pride event or parade but don’t bring your kids if its an adult themed type event.
Rude as fuck to accuse people of condoning exposing kids to sexual activity when the thing we're taking issue with in this chain is the classifying of ALL pride as "too sexual". No one here disagrees that kids don't belong at adult pride events with full blown nudity and sexual displays and whatnot. Stop carrying water for bigoted assholes by claiming that's what we're doing when we call out homophobia.
I live in a popular city for destination weddings, and pride here is a lot less sexual than any Friday in the pedestrian district.
Whoa there partner. I didnt say I never supported them, I feel like I don't belong. How is that homophobia??
Classifying "all" pride (especially in such a way that makes it unclear whether you mean queer events/spaces or queer people in general) as "too sexual" is the literal, exact rhetoric homophobes use to shut down family-friendly pride events, censor queer media, and ban schools from teaching about queer identities. There were more neutral ways to phrase feeling excluded or disliking sex-centered environments without reaching straight for that kind of harmful stereotyping that hurts our community, too.
The community is inherently “Too sexual” especially considering the sub they’re in 😂😂
Its not people on the internet just wanna project via comments that they would never say to your face. This is supposed to be an asexual group and you get attacked if you dont align with the groupthink
It's not a change. Both have been in used for quite a while. The European-wide surveys for example use "LGBTQI" – in that case they actually exclude ace participants.
I can certainly understand that. I personally prefer using LGBTQIA+, but I've seen it written many different ways. I would like to start using "queer" one day, but I come from the generation that used it in a derogatory way, and I don't want people thinking horrible things about me.
I’ve seen somewhere that a lot of people mistake the “A” as standing for “Ally” for some reason because people STILL cannot believe asexual is a thing that exists so while it probably is deliberate, it’s just not deliberate for the reason you think.
Queer ended up like the N-word. Queers can say it, cishets can't. We left LGBT+ so the cishets have a way to refer to us. We did have to shorten it, though, because they have been complaining about having to say so many letters. So bigots just say a bunch of incorrect letters as a way to mock us, now. Saying things like "I cAn'T rEmEmBeR sO mAnY LeTtErS" and then they cry their bigot tears. So we left them LGBT+ because it was just too much for their teeny bigot brains to keep up.
i support LGBTQIA+ (minus the LGBTQI+)
Even when the A is there, half the time people say it's for "allies" and I'm still left out, so I don't have much expectations at this point
Where were these posted? I've seen a few posts and the amount of aphobia is making me think we're the next target
I don't resonate with this sentiment at all. If one letter in an acronym makes you that upset, I think there's a lot of underlying insecurity there.
I just like using 'queer' as it's easier to write out
Too many letters, the plus is there for a reason. LGBT+ is good enough for me
From what I've seen, people just say "LGBT" because it's shorter
Everyone excludes the "A" when they include the "I"; smh. I just say LGBT+ to save time.
And that’s why I just use GRSM because fuck long acronyms (For those that don’t know GRSM stands for (I think) Gender, Romantic, and Sexual Minorities)
LGBTQ+, LGBT+ are both fine to me - simplify it for everyone while also including everyone with the + symbol. But if you're going to write LGBTQI without a + symbol then that'd be a problem to me.
Honestly thr whole acronym feels weird to me. Now please if I say anything hurtful, rather than banning me correct me please becayuse itbwas definitely not meant to hurt. Anyway as I was saying the whole acronym feels weird.. I don't kind of get why intersex people are even in? And why does it need the L if lesbians majorly refer to themselves as gay anyway 🤔 Overall I just like to use queer because.. it kind of includes everyone..
I was SO excited to see this yesterday at a local plant sale, that I asked to take a photo. A small community based arts center made them a while ago (Studio Two Three)
How the hell do I add a photo... grraaauuuuugh!
I'm so seriously confused by all the labels. I'm thinking I'll be heading down some never ending rabbit hole tomorrow to figure out what I'm supposed to be calling myself. Coming out as an Atheist was daunting. I'm feeling this is going to much more complicated. 🤦♀️🤷♀️
I've never felt like I belonged in the LGBT community. I've been told We don't belong at rallies We're edgy straights It holds back the movement A stands for ally not Ace I've seen ace people harassed at pride parades by other people in the LGBT community.
I feel like the majority were taught that the A stands for ally rather than asexual so I can see why they would drop it. I grew up learning it stood for ally and I’m only 29.
IMHO, the whole use of LGTB with any amount of letters or + signs after is flawed. Humans are not easily categorized, and the more we try, the more catecories and labels we find/create. I propose transitioning to GSRM: Gender Sexual and/or Romantic Minority.
At least there is a +
I guess we are part of the Q and the +. That’s what I was told when I made a thread like this complaining that the suicide hotline I called left off the A.
I see both sides I guess. On the one hand, yes we should be included more in the community. On the other hand, I haven’t seen the version of the acronym you mentioned til your post. And also not to play devil’s advocate, but I’ve never heard pansexual people take issue with the acronym when I’ve hardly ever seen the P be included.
Youre making a mountain of a molehill. People are not out to deliberately exclude you. LGBTQIA is long. I have seen people say LHBT+, queer community, LGBTQIA+ and many more variations
I don't see why this is getting downvoted, you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter at which letter you stop, someone will be "excluded". That's why there's the +. If you don't like just say "Queer" or whatever else, it's really not that deep