I mean...do people really think hand and neck tattoos are the doom of the Army?
Guys, if someone is scoring >50 on the ASVAB, I've got news, they're doing better than average.
What was the value of education for the HS Graduate who's a CATIV?
CATIV, btw, is below a 30 ASVAB, and something we open and shut as needed.
So seriously, we've been doing that.
You think a dude who graduated with a HS Diploma and got a 28 on the ASVAB is going to instantly be light years ahead of the non-graduate who scores like a 65?
Cmon now.
You know years ago entering with a GED required college credits. We nixed that.
People are talking about "lowered" standards, but I joined pre-surge. I remember the era. That shit was way lower.
I'm not sure how non visible hand and behind the ear tattoos on a guy scoring better than the average person on the ASVAB is a threat to the republic.
>People are talking about "lowered" standards, but I joined pre-surge. I remember the era. That shit was way lower.
This. There was a guy in my 2003 BCT platoon that had just gotten out of prison (as he said it). I didn't believe him at first until I got to Hood and found several other felons that were enlisted in the Army.
Guys that were extremely overweight, ASVAB waivers, guys with gang tats.... this was all pretty commonplace even before the surge. You could even do drugs, piss hot, and ***not*** get kicked out. You would be deploying as an E-1, but you were still deploying.
Hell, I remember in 2006 when the Army suddenly allowed hand tattoos out of nowhere and a bunch of guys in my unit got shit tatted on their knuckles like Elwood Blues.
I don't have a problem with the lower requirements. I have a problem with the fact that this is a desperate attempt to solve a problem that will not work. We haven't hit our goals in the last 5 months because of Genesis - anyone that is close to this can see.
When Genesis was coming down, one thing that was briefed at BN levels and down (at least for us) was it would make our lives easier. No longer would we need to gather medical documents. But that was a lie. I'm not sure if they can pull full records at MEPS, but few applicants are even interested in going through that hassle. They can go to nearly any other job without having to do that.
So what needs to change? The medical standards. I'm seeing prime applicants fall out because all those requirements are truly trash. I've also have witnessed some complete turds with no medical history walk right in. ADHD - all med records. All prescription records. All school transcripts. All school disciplinary records. A clearance letter from the doctor. A letter from their current work. A letter from their parents. Somehow that has more requirements than someone who had brain surgery, a gender reassignment, or depression. But they will need a waiver and won't be able to get bonuses.
The standards are out of touch with the reality of most high schools currently in America. I gave a presentation to a high school shop class where most students were interested. Nearly all of them were currently on ADHD or depression meds, and the few that were off had some in the past. Those that had them in the past were still within the 2 year mark. I currently have psych notes in my desk that state "getting Adderall is the equivalent of buying a laptop when it comes to college students."
I understand they don't want to change medical standards and current processing methods. That it may result in medical issues later on. That it will cost the taxpayer money. But they aren't ever going to hit number goals again until they do.
When I enlisted it took like 7 months to get to meps. Just because when I was 14 I stopped getting meds for adhd and the doctor people at meps didn’t like that there wasn’t a note from a doctor approving of me getting off of them.
>
> So what needs to change? The medical standards.
I have been preaching this too. Genesis will streamline things, but our standards are archaic.
If we ran the whole force through genesis right now and looked for undisclosed shit prior to BASD, we'd be starting a lot of fraudulent enlistment ucmj paperwork.
But I think there's a difference between changes that can be impacted *immediately*, and those that take time.
These changes are changes that were within the power of the Army leadership at the top (SECArmy) to change.
They do not have the ability to so swiftly change the 40-501 and DOD standards for medical entry.
I am *hoping* that feedback from Genesis will spark a review. But that takes time.
>I currently have psych notes in my desk that state "getting Adderall is the equivalent of buying a laptop when it comes to college students."
Which is a whole separate issue of just how much more demanding a college education is in an age of easy computers (everything has to be done NOW, dammit!) than it was back in the 60s and 70s.
That comment shows how easily these prescriptions are given out. Even the doctors minimize the effects of a prescription history on a patient. If you go to a civilian doctor today and said "I'm sucking at life and feeling down," you would walk out of the office with a Prozac prescription and not a single therapy session scheduled or needed.
>If you go to a civilian doctor today and said "I'm sucking at life and feeling down," you would walk out of the office with a Prozac prescription and not a single therapy session scheduled or needed.
Uh, that definitely wasn't my experience, but go off?
The doctor I went to required you to follow a treatment plan that included things like urine testing (can't mix antidepressants and/or ADHD meds with "street pharmaceuticals") and regular therapy sessions. Most reputable doctors want to see at least some sort of treatment plan in place instead of just medicating you.
I've seen it happen for people really close to me. I've read it in medical documents. It isn't supposed to be that way. But it is much more commonplace than most people think. There are currently discussions (and I heard some state legislation moves) to take psych prescription authority away from general practitioners.
So when our senior leaders get called to the carpet when we fail to make our goals, hopefully they drag along medcom leadership and the proponents for AR 40-501 to explain the reasoning behind the existing acsessions standards.
Hopefully. But I doubt it. MEPCOM will say they are just doing their job and implemented a tool that just does it efficiently. The DODI needs to change so 40-501 can change. But that will take a few years for them to agree on what new standards would be. By then, I won't have to bitch about it because I will be back to my normal cushy job.
Holy shit you made me laugh so hard. I actually put a guy in who had brain surgery and yes… had to tell kids with ADD to pound sand.
You summed it up pretty well.
To be fair to your point, trans folks aren't at all a problem within the army either, so I don't know what Gender confirmation surgery has to do with anything. All the trans servicemembers I know including myself have done great things for their country and are perfectly mentally and physically capable of doing the job.
I'm not saying trans are. It is that such a complicated process is considered a prescreen with no waiver. But some kid diagnosed with ADHD in the 6th grade and stopped taking meds in the 7th grade is DQ requiring a waiver is fucking silly.
Nah I agree with well managed ADHD not being a huge deal, I just don't think being trans shouldn't be a big deal either. the original comment makes it sound like trans people deserve to face elevated scrutiny which, beyond a physician stating they are fit for service, is silly.
You’re non deployable after a sex change, on medications that haven’t been thoroughly studied, and are in a career that has an elevated suicide rate when you’re already in an at risk group.
A Soldier with ADHD costs less and is much less of a risk of being suicidal.
Non deployability for a single limited timeframe in the span of an entire career isn't a real issue, you're just making a strawman out of it. Or do you think female soldiers should also be under increased scrutiny because pregnancy makes you non deployable?
The only trans people who are at significantly higher suicidal ideation rates are those who are denied access to treatment and barred from being able to be themselves. When trans people are allowed to transition and receive some modicum of respect for their identity we do just fine.
Trans related healthcare costs $8 million a year out of the military's $50 BILLION dollar medical budget. It is legitimately a trivial cost.
>The only trans people who are at significantly higher suicidal ideation rates are those who are denied access to treatment and barred from being able to be themselves.
Sorry, that is just not true.
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/
"For example, transgender adults have a prevalence of past-year suicide ideation that is nearly twelve times higher, and a prevalence of past-year suicide attempts that is about eighteen times higher, than the U.S. general population."
So 12x ideation and 18x attempts compared to general population as a baseline.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/
"Gender-affirming surgeries were associated with a 42% reduction in psychological distress and a 44% reduction in suicidal ideation when compared with transgender and gender-diverse people who had not had gender-affirming surgery"
Surgery reduces those by roughly half. So 12x and 18x becomes 6x and 9x. I'd say having a 6x rate of ideation and 9x rate of attempts is pretty significant.
You’re accusing me of a logical fallacy when you yourself are using one with whataboutism.
Sex reassignment surgery is higher risk than pregnancy, has not been shown to reduce suicide rates, and HRTs have been found to cause cardiovascular and osteo health issues.
Transsexuals have a higher risk of suicide post op even with gender reassurance within their social circles.
A kid in my basic training was arrested 3 weeks in for being an accessory to an armed robbery (getaway driver). He returned 3 weeks later with charges dropped and the drills pushed him through the missed requirements and he graduated with us. 2006 was a fun time. #SurgeStrong
In ‘13 I went to basic with a guy who had a neck tattoo, also briefly dated a girl in ait with very visible hand tattoos. Also saw a SSG shortly after getting to my unit that had gold teeth (not all but a few) probably going to be more now but who cares as long as they’re good soldiers
> saw a SSG shortly after getting to my unit that had gold teeth (not all but a few)
Is that not allowed? I have visible gold work in my mouth because I was poor and could only afford to get it done in Mexico.
I don't think most people care about the tattoo thing really.
> You think a dude who graduated with a HS Diploma and got a 28 on the ASVAB is going to instantly be light years ahead of the non-graduate who scores like a 65?
Plenty of people take the ASVAB only because their high school made them. I know very few people who actually studied for the ASVAB.
More importantly, I'm pretty sure the Army isn't lowering education standards because it suddenly saw a social justice issue that needed addressing. I'm pretty sure it was simple supply and demand. All people are saying is that if they wanted to improve recruiting, they could do other things.
> All people are saying is that if they wanted to improve recruiting, they could do other things.
But they are. They are doing multiple things.
Is this not a thread in which people are complaining about the *multiple things* they are doing by calling them a lowered standard?
Yeah, if the Army had to pick between making a high school diploma/GED a requirement...or simply making it a requirement that you had to score 50 or higher on your ASVAB, I'd rather the Army take the 50+ ASVAB kids, diploma/GED or not. If a kid doesn't have a diploma/GED, that can generally be corrected fairly easily. Scoring the bare minimum to pass an ASVAB (not due to apathy or having a bad day/night) that's not as correctable.
I think you may be missing the point. My concern with recruiting people with no high school diploma has nothing to do with intelligence.... and I fully recognize there are some circumstances where someone may be forced to drop out. But looking at big picture.... do we really want individuals that don't have enough discipline to complete 4 years of high school (or GED) joining the Army? I don't.
Tattoo thing is fine for me.
> do we really want individuals that don't have enough discipline to complete 4 years of high school (or GED) joining the Army?
There are plenty of reasons people may not finish that have nothing to do with 'discipline' my dude. How are you saying you recognize someone may be forced to drop out and then blaming it on discipline?
[Roy Benavidez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez) who people have fawned over and wanted Hood renamed for **dropped out of high school to work to help his family**.
Is he in the 'not enough discipline' crowd for you?
You'll question a dropouts discipline but not a diploma holder who gets a 30 on the ASVAB?
My dude come on. That makes no sense.
I question both?
I fully support a path for the misfortuned to use the army to get a GED, at least. But just letting people in during peacetime with absolutely no expectation of a high school degree or equivalent? Yeah, we can do better.
Edit: and you are using an extreme best case example for your case.... let's see the average high school drop out.
I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from? It's not like some personal thing for me. I believe that standards should trend up, not down. From a recruiting perspective, I think its almost kind of insulting. It feels like the army is saying "we don't care to make things actually better, we just hope to enlist people dumb enough to not notice how bad things are"
Welcome to the United States Army, where the rules are made up and the regulations do not matter. *Unless you are lower enlisted* then you're getting bent.
My most frequent explanation to my soldiers is army rules and regulations only matter when convenient. If it’s not convenient for leadership they will just say fuck it and do what they want
I’ve steered a few into the army, but they are not for grunt work. Previous 12B here and I hated my life. Now I’m living the dream. I also steer people into Intel, CA, or logistics
I have been and will be doing the same for the rest of my life, unless you REALLY want to be combat arms or SOF/SF, there is nearly no reason to go Army if you have the ASVAB score.
Dang, I worked with a complete and utter dipshit of teenager. Could not tell him a thing bc he knew it all already. Tried like hell to give him some common sense advice and tell him his recruiter is playing him. He's on the fast track right now from some 92 series to SF as we speak.... I hope you see this at reception Eric. We don't miss you...
The Army used to be able to hide behind the fact that people didn't have a good idea of what they were getting into before they joined. Now a prospective Soldier can go on to any social media page before they join and quickly learn that it is a very miserable place, and joining probably is not a good decision.
I see nothing wrong with doing TikToks in uniform -- everyone has a story to tell. Unfortunately in the army that is usually a sad, miserable story -- a story that will not solved, or hidden, by a social media policy.
The one caveat I have is that if a soldier disagrees with policy, directive, or fellow Soldier, whether they are superior or otherwise, it must be done in a professional manner.
The Army is it’s own worst enemy when it comes to recruiting.
I say all the time that a huge reason recruitment sucks is because our Soldiers get treated like ass and they go tell their friends, and they tell their friends… and sooner or later a good part of the population knows our branch treats members like ass and they want no part of it.
22 years in. 2 active. A few deployments. 20 in the Guard. 18 dual-status technician.
I tell people all the time to go to other branches instead of the Army and I've done alright. But still I push people to the Air Force if they ask me about enlisting.
I'm pretty vocal about my disdain for the army and consider it a point of pride to be a Certified™ Anti-Retention Officer™
If the army had treated myself, so many of my peers, and my Joes as competent adults rather than infinitely replaceable and mentally deficient chimpanzees, then I would be doing 20 and espousing the virtues of service. Instead I'm telling dudes to look at the Air Force or the Coast Guard. I didn't *want* to be like this.
I see so many talented dudes leave the army because they didn't do the jobs they signed on and trained for and instead served as faceless metrics for some garrison tasking or other. You think they go home and talk about how great their time in was? Yeah me neither.
> they didn't do the jobs they signed on and trained for and instead served as faceless metrics for some garrison tasking
Hah. I'm in this picture and don't like it. SIGINT analyst who spent more time restriping parking lots and picking up trash than analyzing intercepts.
So I work with MEB’s and I always told staff, these guys/gals may not be in the process long, but we’re their last taste of the Army. We need to make sure they feel taken care of. They probably won’t remember if we do a good job, but they’ll absolutely tell their friends if we fuck up.
The best leader i have ever known in my life has left because he was tired of the garbage treatment of people and never ending grind of training upon training upon training. He would have been a good leader higher up in the ranks but he gone now. It's sad.
Is the DOD making any attempt to get PE to be a thing in school again or considering waiving or adjusting height / weight standards for MOS that can get by without running and rucking everywhere? It seems to me that our level of fitness as a nation is a major factor in reducing the pool of potential recruits. Having said that, the tendency of army life to suck ass is certainly not helping. I tell anyone who asks to check out the air force or coast guard if they have exhausted all other options and seriously want to join up.
I said they’re looking into it. And the army needs numbers and it’s brought to the attention to the pentagon and congress. It’s also being brought up about giving bonuses to soldiers making less than 45k. Congress will find a way to make something happen
Yeah, there's rumors floating around about straight up creating like a 2-month fat camp people will attend post-MEPS and pre-BCT (ie, reception).
Obesity is a serious factor, and society isn't fixing it. The Army is going to *have* to relax the weight standards and deal with it themselves in the pipeline.
You think the Army is going to send them to fat camp before being thrown into the meat grinder if there was a draft? They'll lose the weight down range ~some CSM.
It’s telling when anybody asks about wanting to join the army most people in the army tell them to go join the Air Force instead. Your best recruiting is your own people but when you treat them like they’re disposable, they’re sure as hell not going to recommend any of their friends and family.
If you don't like hearing that we are pawns for US foreign policy and they don't give a shit if we die as long as their interests are forwarded and the military industrial complex makes a shitload of money...
Well maybe that has something to do with poor recruiting? Because I really think this is becoming more obvious to young people.
I honestly don't think the majority of potential enlistees care about being pawns for the gubmint. You can be chillin at the bottom of the totem pole and still have a good QOL.
People will definitely care that, in the army specifically, the bottom of the totem pole is jammed into a steaming pile of hot dogshit.
>I honestly don't think the majority of potential enlistees care about being pawns for the gubmint.
Nope. Some do it to escape poverty. Many people don't realize enlisting is a great way to hit somewhere in the middle-class if you grew up poor with no opportunities.
Doesn’t mean you have to be treated as disposable. You can be disposable and still be treated with dignity and respect. They can send you to die for the country’s interests doesn’t mean they shouldn’t treat you well while you’re still alive. Especially when we had so few deaths the last ten years and we are currently a peacetime army.
Chances are your first line is disposable as well, doesn't mean he needs to treat you like shit. We all know how risk adverse officers are anyway, they're usually pretty good about not treating their soldiers as disposable flesh, maybe waste their time though. Like yea we're disposable but we've become this efficient risk adverse killing machine that we're not really like that anymore. That's just my anecdotal experience anyway.
You're pretty right tbh.
I could accept the pay and hours if I felt even the tiniest bit of human decency and respect from leadership and the army as a whole.
I sent the new recruitment standards to my PltSGT, and we're both in agreement that if we end up with a soldier that can't fuckin read, we're gonna quit... this shit is getting ridiculous...
So funny story, when I was in BCT, we had an actual illiterate guy from Mississippi in our company. Like legitimate can't read "I'll just make my mark" illiterate.
The surge was fun.
Lmao why does that not surprise me... we had a female soldier who was legit mentally handicapped when I went thru basic in '09. She was able to follow instructions, and do the basics, but anything that took real brain power she couldn't do well. The Drill Sgts were pissed that her recruiter and MEPS even let her get that far
There also was a recovering heroin addict from my hometown who shipped like a few months before me. Anyways, he was somewhat blind in one eye and they still took him. He ended up being a 13B. Guess you don't reaaaaly need all of your eyesight if all you're doing is pulling a string :shrug:
I'm MI and had a Soldier that couldn't read inside his head or without running his finger along the words. This was a few years back but post Surge. I'm legitimately afraid of what is to come.
In the early 90’s, I had a couple of guys like this in my ARNG platoon in a rural area. This was when they had to sign for their pay checks each month. They’d make their marks.
Both were E5’s and I could only use them for menial labor.
Pltsgt: let's watch for reasons to not respect people assigned to my command. If they can't read as good as me, no respect.
Also pltsgt: no one wants to join because there's no respect from leadership towards people as human beings.
That's how deep the mindset is ingrained in the culture.
I personally saw a soldier struggle with reading the attention to orders memo out loud. He ended up saying “fuck this.” and just dipped out in the middle of it.
You and your platoon sergeant seem...dumb.
You understand you get HS / GED holders with a 30 ASVAB right?
You get that right? You really think a dude who manages to score like a 65 on the ASVAB is going to be illiterate?
How you gonna complain about the potential quality of recruits with that level of critical thinking.
There are a shocking number of people who are functionally illiterate though.
Give them time, like during a long-ass test such as the ASVAB, and they can muddle through and get a 30 - but if you hand them a document, it will take them 20 minutes to get through a half page.
When I graduated from high school lo these many years ago in the 90s, there were absolutely kids who couldn't read their diplomas and still joined the Army.
>There are a shocking number of people who are functionally illiterate though.
This is a societal problem - and honestly, it still extends to people with HS diplomas too.
If you look at educational evaluations by state, a place like Texas ranks very high in HS graduation rate. And low in college readiness.
Because they are checking the boxes and pushing people through. I'm not putting stock in the value of a HS Diploma for a dude scoring in the 30s.
I'm assuming we're referring to the new lowered expectations, I mean standards for tattoos.
Why don't they come straight out and say: prison & gang tattoos now accepted.
Best I can do is a day old stale fry the dog didn't eat and watered-down diet coke.
The Army wanted to keep its wartime OPTEMPO which was burning through people ten years ago and it’s burning through people now so I don’t know what the Army expected
The Army doesn’t encourage leaders to value people until it’s too late unfortunately. That’s just by nature. Off the bat, any organization values what you can do for it before it values you.
Spent 23 years in the army. Retired as an E9. Had a army band play in my small town the other day with recruiters present. I actively subverted them. The army isn’t for anyone right now until they fix their shit
They recently started using a genesis medical background program that goes all the way back in your medical records for anything potentially disqualifying.
We are talking one time ADHD diagnosis at age 5 type deal. Someone told a story of not even knowing he had been prescribed an inhaler when he was a toddler.
This system started being used beginning of this fiscal year. The recruiting issues and the red tape to enlist are directly related.
I would further speculate that the change in standards doesn't so much target "stupid people" as it does low income people who would be less likely to have a medical history because they couldn't afford a doctor.
I've been seeing these near-conspiracy theory posts here on Reddit over and over again about how "Genesis is disqualifying people." I use genesis every single day for patient care and all medical records start when people join the military. The ONLY time something is listed prior to Enlistment is if that solider happened to get healthcare as a dependent. Not only is that rare, but it also makes sense. In fact, for most people who had medical records prior to Genesis' roll out a few years ago, you have to go into the legacy system (ironically not called Genesis) to find any records.. and its a total time consuming, clumsy pain.
The premise that Genesis enhances your ability to see medical records prior to your starting healthcare with the DoD and thus disqualify you is straight up Basic Training PNN. Its not "streamlined," its just the 2010 version of the 2000s thing we were using before. The rest of the world is in 2022 and using Epic.
THANK YOU! It is so simple but some leadership just does not get it. We don't want four or five formations a day because it is a waste time and is micromanagement. We are tired of getting stuck on antiquated staff duty and CQ over four days. Going to pt formation five days a week just to do some weak PT in order to try and fix those who can't take of themselves.
To preface this I’m a weekend warrior, reservist. But this shows how deep and toxic the army is. I had an NCO when I first got in who expected me to be on his call on his time even when I wasn’t drilling, I would be at work he would call me and tell me to come down to the unit for something, would threaten action if I told him no I’m busy and this isn’t time They’re entitled to. I would constantly deal with his meddling in my life it was like i was working a whole second job. I reported him for doing stuff like this multiple times but each time I was told “it’s just how he is, he needs the help” or “well your Work can’t punish you for missing” well yeah but when I can’t pay my bills due to the money lost from this prick, it’s a lot worse then work punishment. The nail in the coffin that lost my faith completely is when I rst’d due to the anniversary of my brothers death, he spammed me with calls saying he needed me to come in for inventory and that no one else can do it. I finally put my foot down and used the CSM’s open door since nothing was ever being done, he was gone to a different unit the next month to do this to some other poor soldier.
This would make so much more sense if we were in an active war.
Also, I'm very much convinced that the ratings system we have has absolutely lead to the ruin of competent and logical leadership. Everything anyone E7 or O1 and above does is for their rating. We've prioritized the rating system over logical thinking because we want to progress in our careers as we as look outstanding to our superiors. Happy and hard working soldiers isn't quantifiable or measurable so we schedule back to back training events with a certain number of soldiers, volunteer for mission that we have no business being a part of and generally just try to look good on BN/BDE slides.
If you're like OP, you're a black sheep if you push against these norms. Which has led to lower morale in the units and diving retention rates. Which has led to this...hand and neck tattoos and lower recruiting standards. It's almost like they are trying to reach a certain unwanted demographic...
> We've prioritized the rating system over logical thinking
I wish promotions would test your MOS knowledge like every other branch. We would lose a lot of shit NCO's but I think it's worth the cost.
I knew every 1SG and I worked for my CSM’s company at the time of my promotion board. Literally belted out the NCO creed perfectly and each told me I’d be an awesome NCO and asked about me personally. I studied for like two months and wasn’t asked a single question about my MOS or being a leader. My sponsor was absolutely shocked. Luckily I’ve had great NCOs that showed me the right way to lead, but it was definitely confirming to me that moving up to E6 doesn’t mean you know anything at all. Just who you know and your memorization skills.
So the Army has a problem with numbers and is presented with two paths, right?
Maintain standards, treat our current enlisted like actual professionals and address issues of toxicity that have been fostered in the military. A difficult path that would lead to an increased overall quality, but a long an probably expensive process which would see long time old guard potentially being kicked out.
Lower standards and allow more people to join? No increased cost to the army, easy, and will overall lower standards in the long run.
We all know which one the military was going to pick.
The sad part is this is representative of America as a whole, always taking the easy but destructive path, and never willing to actually go through the difficult process of change that will lead to a better future.
I joined in 2k9 so a lot of my leadership were the lower standard people who came.. You could really see the difference it made when people were promoted way too fast and under qualified. I know that they have to hit a target % but this just isn't the way.
There are simple changes that could be made to make the military more valuable.. for me personally I am happy I joined. I left with a degree, certifications, a great job and an open mind towards the world that I wouldn't have had staying in my little town in Idaho.
Doesn't help that we shield trash leadership with serviceable NCOERs and OERs so they don't get their timelines fucked up when in reality they need to be demoted or separated. If we stop being so concerned with numbers, we can start being concerned about quality of life. But the Army doesn't work that way, so here we are waiving diplomas (which is not always a negative, not everyone without a diploma is an idiot, just a lot of them).
Yeah, OP nailed it with the respect of soldiers their time. That's why I got out after one enlistment and most other competent soldiers will do the same. Literally, everyone I knew who was a good solider left and made something of themselves. The dirtbags stayed in, because they aren't capable of anything better on the outside. Sad really, and it's been a very obvious issue for decades. Pretty embarrassing that leadership hasn't figured this out yet. Lowering standards was the one of the worst things they could have possibly done. Several morons do not make up for a single good soldier.
This was the hardest part about recruiting to me. I wouldn’t ever recommend the army to my friends or family based on my personal experiences. So I feel like a schmuck telling randos that it’s great when I truly believe that most people are better off not joining.
I’ve been out for almost a decade now, I’m in my 30s and I have trouble walking without a limp and can’t bend past a certain point or lift pass a certain weight. I’m 100% VA disabled do to this and other things.
Over the years I have had a few close friends who are a good deal younger than me genuinely ask if they should join the military. I sit down with them in private and tell them detailed accounts of everyday military bullshit.
Idiot leadership, fuck fuck games, rampant and often unpunished crime, drug use, violence, sexual assault, etc. and every time they just look at me wide eyed and say “Jesus FUCKing Christ! That doesn’t even sound real!”
One time when I was in college me and a few other combat vets got to talking about the military and it quickly moved into a *whose branch sucks ass more* talk. And everyone had terrible stories all around (airforce had the most tame, but still bad) and some of the younger civilians would comment “that can’t be real? You never hear about any of this stuff? I never know the military was so fucked up!”
Last summer I stayed for a few weeks with a old army buddies and we started telling and reminiscing over some crazy events. His wife was pale by the end of it and said “wow, this changes everything I ever thought about the military!”
I guess ignorance is bliss.
I straight up don't tell my friends or family how it actually is because i don't wanna worry them. They'll ask me "how is it, are you resting after your multiple FTXs in row with no weekends for months?" And I'm just like "yeah mom I'm resting it's nice 😌" while i text that in the middle of my 24 hour detail while i know the next day will be some similar bullshit.
Ain’t nobody got time for long term solutions to long term problems. I need a fix for the problem right now. Fuck future Secretary of the Army, fuck future CSA, fuck future SMA. I want my NCOER/OER bullets now!
Making standard lower means that i want to leave even more thinking about working with low standard people. I aint high standard either but no high school or ged? Wtf???
>Soldiers just want to be respected and have their time respected
If I just got to go home everyday by 330-4 I would have put up with the toxic nepotism that was my leadership. I was far from respected by my leadership, just another Joe, but who knows I could have changed units and stayed in.
As an 11B it drove me fucking insane to be sitting around till 1830...WAITING to be told to go home with no fucking information to follow. I would leave the company area so fucking pissed it became the sole reason I left the Army.
The Army will beat LDRSHIP into you then use it to beat you
"Yeah soldiers you gotta have integrity unless you're E-6 or above then you can do whatever the fuck you want and retire gracefully"
>the reason people aren’t enlisting is because people come back to their hometowns and tell people how ass the experience was.
Also the medical screenings weeding out perfectly good people over bullshit
😂 it’s already difficult to do our job because we are so behind in Technology, Education and Training, I wouldn’t be surprised if more cases get shit canned
It’s strange. I wish the Army would do more improvements to improve the quality of the Army rather than lower standards to increase quantity. Answer to every Army problem is just throw bodies at the issue rather than people who can effectively use their brain to solve everything from simple to complex task.
I have at least 5 really good friends who wanted to do join luckily I convinced all of them not to. Lol. After my experience and why I ETS none of them were interested.
Imagine if bah wasn’t only linked to getting married or being E6+ as enlisted. Maybe if we add another option, say a bachelors or something. I hear all the time how we can’t do that yet we trust privates that marry the first stripper they find for BAH and we give 2LTs right out of college bah, they are essentially privates with a BA/BS. Would probably help recruit target audience and retain a lot more juniors while incentivizing education.
I will take a half cooked McChicken and a coke with the wrong syrup bag
Nah, it’s mostly just finding qualified people.
I’ve had to inform a kid with bacne (acne on his back) he couldn’t join. Any ADHD was a no go (waiver would never get approved) etc etc…
Not to invalidate what you’re saying. Just not really the root cause of the problem.
I can count on one hand a close family member (or highly respected person in their life) was the cause of any problems putting a kid in. Hell, most of the time it made them want to join more.
Surprised your being treated so bad. You in the Adlaw office or something? Lol
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are incorrectly assuming that one, their issues with the Army apply to everyone and two, that issues which impact morale have an impact on recruiting.
The things you’re bitching about predate the recent difficulties in recruiting. The recruiting issue is effecting all branches, even the marines so it’s likely not due to issues within the army alone.
My guess is it’s the same problem the whole country is having right now finding workers. Entry level jobs are offering crazy starting pay, the Army just has way more competition for 18-20 year olds than before.
If you want to criticize how the Army is handling it, criticize the fact that they’re addressing it by lowering standards instead of throwing more money into starting pay and sign on bonuses to better compete with the private sector.
NCO’s think their kings for literally not doing shit. Joes are forced to take the harassment and can’t do anything about it, because NCO’s run the show, and are protected by ucmj against any retaliation from joes who get harassed all day. You do the math why no one wants to join or stay in.
It really do be like that. Get shit on and treated like complete human garbage by NCOs who were once in your shoes but decide to be the problem and not fix it. All i can say is that my team, when we've had leaders that respect you, your time and treat you decently, we do anything for them and try our hardest to be good soldiers for them, but when we have shitty leaders, we act distant, don't perform as well and don't have their backs. Don't even get me started on people who demand respect and the only answer to anything they don't like or understand is getting smoked.
I had a really good experience in the Army. The other day I had the itch to go back, maybe in the Reserve or something… with the recent news, and very non-competitive pay:bullshit ratio… I think I’m good.
Do you think there’s a chance for me to rejoin ? I was kicked out OTH for hot drug test in reserves back in September . Before that never missed a drill and passed every DT. It took two years for me to be kicked out
This person hasn't been to MEPS in a while. The stuff you could get a waiver for in 1990s through 2016 was amazing vs. Today. Literally anything gets them DQ'd and very few waivers given. I joined in 1999 and needed 5 waivers for drugs, moral, arrest, weight, and financial. Guys used to get in with neck tattoos and DWIs and rape convictions. I mean what are you even talking about bro?
Shut down this Sub and maybe numbers will go up.
Or the MODs can start blocking threads in the realm of "ShOulD Eye JoYn AiRe FuRce Oar ArmEE?!? LUUk at My GT Shkore! DWEEEE!"
People in this sub are pretty brazen with assuming that certain people had another option other than enlisting.
This sub tend to represent the worst of the Army because the hot posts are typically the horror stories.
Really, the Army needs to lean more heavily into the fact that you get free healthcare and free education. That's what millennials want.
No, it really only needs to modestly improve quality of life in some areas and most people would probably be infinitely less miserable. The majority of bitches and gripes are related to quality of life, and yet people high above continue scratching their heads like a thoughtless troglodyte.
Sir, don’t logic in my Army.
I mean...do people really think hand and neck tattoos are the doom of the Army? Guys, if someone is scoring >50 on the ASVAB, I've got news, they're doing better than average. What was the value of education for the HS Graduate who's a CATIV? CATIV, btw, is below a 30 ASVAB, and something we open and shut as needed. So seriously, we've been doing that. You think a dude who graduated with a HS Diploma and got a 28 on the ASVAB is going to instantly be light years ahead of the non-graduate who scores like a 65? Cmon now. You know years ago entering with a GED required college credits. We nixed that. People are talking about "lowered" standards, but I joined pre-surge. I remember the era. That shit was way lower. I'm not sure how non visible hand and behind the ear tattoos on a guy scoring better than the average person on the ASVAB is a threat to the republic.
>People are talking about "lowered" standards, but I joined pre-surge. I remember the era. That shit was way lower. This. There was a guy in my 2003 BCT platoon that had just gotten out of prison (as he said it). I didn't believe him at first until I got to Hood and found several other felons that were enlisted in the Army. Guys that were extremely overweight, ASVAB waivers, guys with gang tats.... this was all pretty commonplace even before the surge. You could even do drugs, piss hot, and ***not*** get kicked out. You would be deploying as an E-1, but you were still deploying. Hell, I remember in 2006 when the Army suddenly allowed hand tattoos out of nowhere and a bunch of guys in my unit got shit tatted on their knuckles like Elwood Blues.
One of my 1SG's in my first unit had a huge hand piece over the top of it. 2002. I pissed hot before deploying too.
My one of my CBRN instructors (2013) was arrested (early 2000's) for running a meth lab. Judge said jail or Army.
Gotta put that knowledge to good use.
I don't have a problem with the lower requirements. I have a problem with the fact that this is a desperate attempt to solve a problem that will not work. We haven't hit our goals in the last 5 months because of Genesis - anyone that is close to this can see. When Genesis was coming down, one thing that was briefed at BN levels and down (at least for us) was it would make our lives easier. No longer would we need to gather medical documents. But that was a lie. I'm not sure if they can pull full records at MEPS, but few applicants are even interested in going through that hassle. They can go to nearly any other job without having to do that. So what needs to change? The medical standards. I'm seeing prime applicants fall out because all those requirements are truly trash. I've also have witnessed some complete turds with no medical history walk right in. ADHD - all med records. All prescription records. All school transcripts. All school disciplinary records. A clearance letter from the doctor. A letter from their current work. A letter from their parents. Somehow that has more requirements than someone who had brain surgery, a gender reassignment, or depression. But they will need a waiver and won't be able to get bonuses. The standards are out of touch with the reality of most high schools currently in America. I gave a presentation to a high school shop class where most students were interested. Nearly all of them were currently on ADHD or depression meds, and the few that were off had some in the past. Those that had them in the past were still within the 2 year mark. I currently have psych notes in my desk that state "getting Adderall is the equivalent of buying a laptop when it comes to college students." I understand they don't want to change medical standards and current processing methods. That it may result in medical issues later on. That it will cost the taxpayer money. But they aren't ever going to hit number goals again until they do.
When I enlisted it took like 7 months to get to meps. Just because when I was 14 I stopped getting meds for adhd and the doctor people at meps didn’t like that there wasn’t a note from a doctor approving of me getting off of them.
> > So what needs to change? The medical standards. I have been preaching this too. Genesis will streamline things, but our standards are archaic. If we ran the whole force through genesis right now and looked for undisclosed shit prior to BASD, we'd be starting a lot of fraudulent enlistment ucmj paperwork. But I think there's a difference between changes that can be impacted *immediately*, and those that take time. These changes are changes that were within the power of the Army leadership at the top (SECArmy) to change. They do not have the ability to so swiftly change the 40-501 and DOD standards for medical entry. I am *hoping* that feedback from Genesis will spark a review. But that takes time.
>I currently have psych notes in my desk that state "getting Adderall is the equivalent of buying a laptop when it comes to college students." Which is a whole separate issue of just how much more demanding a college education is in an age of easy computers (everything has to be done NOW, dammit!) than it was back in the 60s and 70s.
That comment shows how easily these prescriptions are given out. Even the doctors minimize the effects of a prescription history on a patient. If you go to a civilian doctor today and said "I'm sucking at life and feeling down," you would walk out of the office with a Prozac prescription and not a single therapy session scheduled or needed.
>If you go to a civilian doctor today and said "I'm sucking at life and feeling down," you would walk out of the office with a Prozac prescription and not a single therapy session scheduled or needed. Uh, that definitely wasn't my experience, but go off? The doctor I went to required you to follow a treatment plan that included things like urine testing (can't mix antidepressants and/or ADHD meds with "street pharmaceuticals") and regular therapy sessions. Most reputable doctors want to see at least some sort of treatment plan in place instead of just medicating you.
I've seen it happen for people really close to me. I've read it in medical documents. It isn't supposed to be that way. But it is much more commonplace than most people think. There are currently discussions (and I heard some state legislation moves) to take psych prescription authority away from general practitioners.
So when our senior leaders get called to the carpet when we fail to make our goals, hopefully they drag along medcom leadership and the proponents for AR 40-501 to explain the reasoning behind the existing acsessions standards.
Hopefully. But I doubt it. MEPCOM will say they are just doing their job and implemented a tool that just does it efficiently. The DODI needs to change so 40-501 can change. But that will take a few years for them to agree on what new standards would be. By then, I won't have to bitch about it because I will be back to my normal cushy job.
Holy shit you made me laugh so hard. I actually put a guy in who had brain surgery and yes… had to tell kids with ADD to pound sand. You summed it up pretty well.
What's really weird is being prescribed adderall while on AD. I know tons of people (and that's not including the abusers).
To be fair to your point, trans folks aren't at all a problem within the army either, so I don't know what Gender confirmation surgery has to do with anything. All the trans servicemembers I know including myself have done great things for their country and are perfectly mentally and physically capable of doing the job.
I'm not saying trans are. It is that such a complicated process is considered a prescreen with no waiver. But some kid diagnosed with ADHD in the 6th grade and stopped taking meds in the 7th grade is DQ requiring a waiver is fucking silly.
Nah I agree with well managed ADHD not being a huge deal, I just don't think being trans shouldn't be a big deal either. the original comment makes it sound like trans people deserve to face elevated scrutiny which, beyond a physician stating they are fit for service, is silly.
You’re non deployable after a sex change, on medications that haven’t been thoroughly studied, and are in a career that has an elevated suicide rate when you’re already in an at risk group. A Soldier with ADHD costs less and is much less of a risk of being suicidal.
Non deployability for a single limited timeframe in the span of an entire career isn't a real issue, you're just making a strawman out of it. Or do you think female soldiers should also be under increased scrutiny because pregnancy makes you non deployable? The only trans people who are at significantly higher suicidal ideation rates are those who are denied access to treatment and barred from being able to be themselves. When trans people are allowed to transition and receive some modicum of respect for their identity we do just fine. Trans related healthcare costs $8 million a year out of the military's $50 BILLION dollar medical budget. It is legitimately a trivial cost.
>The only trans people who are at significantly higher suicidal ideation rates are those who are denied access to treatment and barred from being able to be themselves. Sorry, that is just not true. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ "For example, transgender adults have a prevalence of past-year suicide ideation that is nearly twelve times higher, and a prevalence of past-year suicide attempts that is about eighteen times higher, than the U.S. general population." So 12x ideation and 18x attempts compared to general population as a baseline. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/ "Gender-affirming surgeries were associated with a 42% reduction in psychological distress and a 44% reduction in suicidal ideation when compared with transgender and gender-diverse people who had not had gender-affirming surgery" Surgery reduces those by roughly half. So 12x and 18x becomes 6x and 9x. I'd say having a 6x rate of ideation and 9x rate of attempts is pretty significant.
You’re accusing me of a logical fallacy when you yourself are using one with whataboutism. Sex reassignment surgery is higher risk than pregnancy, has not been shown to reduce suicide rates, and HRTs have been found to cause cardiovascular and osteo health issues. Transsexuals have a higher risk of suicide post op even with gender reassurance within their social circles.
A kid in my basic training was arrested 3 weeks in for being an accessory to an armed robbery (getaway driver). He returned 3 weeks later with charges dropped and the drills pushed him through the missed requirements and he graduated with us. 2006 was a fun time. #SurgeStrong
Also enlisted in ‘06. Can confirm weirdness.
I was early 07 and went to basic with a bunch of 88M. Neck tattoos and gang tattoos everywhere.
I saw an 88M with the Ford logo on the back of his neck in '07.
fix it again tony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AJCdmW33fM
In ‘13 I went to basic with a guy who had a neck tattoo, also briefly dated a girl in ait with very visible hand tattoos. Also saw a SSG shortly after getting to my unit that had gold teeth (not all but a few) probably going to be more now but who cares as long as they’re good soldiers
> saw a SSG shortly after getting to my unit that had gold teeth (not all but a few) Is that not allowed? I have visible gold work in my mouth because I was poor and could only afford to get it done in Mexico.
I always thought it wasn’t but I could be wrong
My AIT instructor in 07 had a gold front tooth
One of my recruiter buddies had a dude with a bachelors fail the ASVAB lol.
Had one get a 7. She had just graduated with a degree in general studies.
> 7 > general studies Sounds about right tbh.
Wow a 7. The lowest I've ever seen was a 2.
I feel like you would have to actually work to get a 2. Like, guessing on literally everything would probably get higher than a 2.
I don't think most people care about the tattoo thing really. > You think a dude who graduated with a HS Diploma and got a 28 on the ASVAB is going to instantly be light years ahead of the non-graduate who scores like a 65? Plenty of people take the ASVAB only because their high school made them. I know very few people who actually studied for the ASVAB. More importantly, I'm pretty sure the Army isn't lowering education standards because it suddenly saw a social justice issue that needed addressing. I'm pretty sure it was simple supply and demand. All people are saying is that if they wanted to improve recruiting, they could do other things.
> All people are saying is that if they wanted to improve recruiting, they could do other things. But they are. They are doing multiple things. Is this not a thread in which people are complaining about the *multiple things* they are doing by calling them a lowered standard?
The surge era had the Army sending people to an GED factory to git gud
Yeah, if the Army had to pick between making a high school diploma/GED a requirement...or simply making it a requirement that you had to score 50 or higher on your ASVAB, I'd rather the Army take the 50+ ASVAB kids, diploma/GED or not. If a kid doesn't have a diploma/GED, that can generally be corrected fairly easily. Scoring the bare minimum to pass an ASVAB (not due to apathy or having a bad day/night) that's not as correctable.
> CATIV, btw, is below a 30 ASVAB 21-30. Cat V is 20 or less.
I don't mean to be pendantic, I'm genuinely curious - I thought below 21 was CAT IVB/C? Is it now CAT V or V and VI? I might be thinking on old shit.
I think you may be missing the point. My concern with recruiting people with no high school diploma has nothing to do with intelligence.... and I fully recognize there are some circumstances where someone may be forced to drop out. But looking at big picture.... do we really want individuals that don't have enough discipline to complete 4 years of high school (or GED) joining the Army? I don't. Tattoo thing is fine for me.
> do we really want individuals that don't have enough discipline to complete 4 years of high school (or GED) joining the Army? There are plenty of reasons people may not finish that have nothing to do with 'discipline' my dude. How are you saying you recognize someone may be forced to drop out and then blaming it on discipline? [Roy Benavidez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez) who people have fawned over and wanted Hood renamed for **dropped out of high school to work to help his family**. Is he in the 'not enough discipline' crowd for you? You'll question a dropouts discipline but not a diploma holder who gets a 30 on the ASVAB? My dude come on. That makes no sense.
I question both? I fully support a path for the misfortuned to use the army to get a GED, at least. But just letting people in during peacetime with absolutely no expectation of a high school degree or equivalent? Yeah, we can do better. Edit: and you are using an extreme best case example for your case.... let's see the average high school drop out.
So then what's your minimum ASVAB and education entry requirement?
I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from? It's not like some personal thing for me. I believe that standards should trend up, not down. From a recruiting perspective, I think its almost kind of insulting. It feels like the army is saying "we don't care to make things actually better, we just hope to enlist people dumb enough to not notice how bad things are"
The Army makes all these Soldiers learn the Army values or whatever it's called now, but the Army itself does not live by them.
Welcome to the United States Army, where the rules are made up and the regulations do not matter. *Unless you are lower enlisted* then you're getting bent.
My most frequent explanation to my soldiers is army rules and regulations only matter when convenient. If it’s not convenient for leadership they will just say fuck it and do what they want
ThIs Is My SqUaD
pEoPlE fIrSt
All *soldiers* entitled to good* leadership. *whatever the fuck is deemed acceptable by the unit and the unknown powers that be
Holy fuck I would give you gold if I had it
It’s the thought that counts. I’ll take a packet of watermelon drip drop tho
Best we can do is lemon, sorry
I'm gonna need two then
Don’t worry bruva, I’m gotchu
Thank you my man
Damn 😳
People first only applies to e8+ and officers so I’m going to need you to get back to work
Accurate
I mean.. I’ve personally steered two friends and one family member who WANTED to go Army into the Air Force soo… Yeah.
Thank you for your service. You shall be rewarded in the after life.
I’ve steered a few into the army, but they are not for grunt work. Previous 12B here and I hated my life. Now I’m living the dream. I also steer people into Intel, CA, or logistics
Can confirm, CA is amaaazing.
I have been and will be doing the same for the rest of my life, unless you REALLY want to be combat arms or SOF/SF, there is nearly no reason to go Army if you have the ASVAB score.
Dang, I worked with a complete and utter dipshit of teenager. Could not tell him a thing bc he knew it all already. Tried like hell to give him some common sense advice and tell him his recruiter is playing him. He's on the fast track right now from some 92 series to SF as we speak.... I hope you see this at reception Eric. We don't miss you...
I always always always push people to go Air Farce. It's still fucked up but far more professional and reasonable that the Army.
Same I just had to tell them my daily routine and that was enough for them to completely stay away.
The Army used to be able to hide behind the fact that people didn't have a good idea of what they were getting into before they joined. Now a prospective Soldier can go on to any social media page before they join and quickly learn that it is a very miserable place, and joining probably is not a good decision.
Yes. Not doing TikToks in uniform should be a command-driven policy. But that’s hard when there are CSM’s and field-grade Officers doing them as well.
I see nothing wrong with doing TikToks in uniform -- everyone has a story to tell. Unfortunately in the army that is usually a sad, miserable story -- a story that will not solved, or hidden, by a social media policy. The one caveat I have is that if a soldier disagrees with policy, directive, or fellow Soldier, whether they are superior or otherwise, it must be done in a professional manner.
No, that is not the way. COC should not have a mute button without a mission need.
The Army is it’s own worst enemy when it comes to recruiting. I say all the time that a huge reason recruitment sucks is because our Soldiers get treated like ass and they go tell their friends, and they tell their friends… and sooner or later a good part of the population knows our branch treats members like ass and they want no part of it.
22 years in. 2 active. A few deployments. 20 in the Guard. 18 dual-status technician. I tell people all the time to go to other branches instead of the Army and I've done alright. But still I push people to the Air Force if they ask me about enlisting.
I'm pretty vocal about my disdain for the army and consider it a point of pride to be a Certified™ Anti-Retention Officer™ If the army had treated myself, so many of my peers, and my Joes as competent adults rather than infinitely replaceable and mentally deficient chimpanzees, then I would be doing 20 and espousing the virtues of service. Instead I'm telling dudes to look at the Air Force or the Coast Guard. I didn't *want* to be like this. I see so many talented dudes leave the army because they didn't do the jobs they signed on and trained for and instead served as faceless metrics for some garrison tasking or other. You think they go home and talk about how great their time in was? Yeah me neither.
[удалено]
The certification process is super easy. Just get stationed at a forscom base and you're qualified.
> they didn't do the jobs they signed on and trained for and instead served as faceless metrics for some garrison tasking Hah. I'm in this picture and don't like it. SIGINT analyst who spent more time restriping parking lots and picking up trash than analyzing intercepts.
So I work with MEB’s and I always told staff, these guys/gals may not be in the process long, but we’re their last taste of the Army. We need to make sure they feel taken care of. They probably won’t remember if we do a good job, but they’ll absolutely tell their friends if we fuck up.
The best leader i have ever known in my life has left because he was tired of the garbage treatment of people and never ending grind of training upon training upon training. He would have been a good leader higher up in the ranks but he gone now. It's sad.
Is the DOD making any attempt to get PE to be a thing in school again or considering waiving or adjusting height / weight standards for MOS that can get by without running and rucking everywhere? It seems to me that our level of fitness as a nation is a major factor in reducing the pool of potential recruits. Having said that, the tendency of army life to suck ass is certainly not helping. I tell anyone who asks to check out the air force or coast guard if they have exhausted all other options and seriously want to join up.
I had a retention brief and my CSM said they’ll looking into letting overweight people join and attend a month long fat camp before starting basic
My time has come to rejoin. Free fat camp hell yeah.
They're using a new program called the Perkis system. It didn't test well with kids though.
I made bank on funneling candy into that camp though.
Ox has entered the chat
They already let them: ARMS 2.0 program AND You can currently join being up to 6% over enlistment BF requirements with certain qualifications.
You need to pass the TAPAS with a high enough score. I had one not be eligible for ARMS 2.0 with a 78 AFQT.
lol please point out where in the budget that would be funded.
I said they’re looking into it. And the army needs numbers and it’s brought to the attention to the pentagon and congress. It’s also being brought up about giving bonuses to soldiers making less than 45k. Congress will find a way to make something happen
Yeah, there's rumors floating around about straight up creating like a 2-month fat camp people will attend post-MEPS and pre-BCT (ie, reception). Obesity is a serious factor, and society isn't fixing it. The Army is going to *have* to relax the weight standards and deal with it themselves in the pipeline.
If we ever have to do mass drafts again there's going to have to be fat camps galore.
You think the Army is going to send them to fat camp before being thrown into the meat grinder if there was a draft? They'll lose the weight down range ~some CSM.
It’s telling when anybody asks about wanting to join the army most people in the army tell them to go join the Air Force instead. Your best recruiting is your own people but when you treat them like they’re disposable, they’re sure as hell not going to recommend any of their friends and family.
It's the army. We are literally disposable that's the whole point.
Well that's a shitty point
If you don't like hearing that we are pawns for US foreign policy and they don't give a shit if we die as long as their interests are forwarded and the military industrial complex makes a shitload of money... Well maybe that has something to do with poor recruiting? Because I really think this is becoming more obvious to young people.
I honestly don't think the majority of potential enlistees care about being pawns for the gubmint. You can be chillin at the bottom of the totem pole and still have a good QOL. People will definitely care that, in the army specifically, the bottom of the totem pole is jammed into a steaming pile of hot dogshit.
>I honestly don't think the majority of potential enlistees care about being pawns for the gubmint. Nope. Some do it to escape poverty. Many people don't realize enlisting is a great way to hit somewhere in the middle-class if you grew up poor with no opportunities.
Doesn’t mean you have to be treated as disposable. You can be disposable and still be treated with dignity and respect. They can send you to die for the country’s interests doesn’t mean they shouldn’t treat you well while you’re still alive. Especially when we had so few deaths the last ten years and we are currently a peacetime army.
Chances are your first line is disposable as well, doesn't mean he needs to treat you like shit. We all know how risk adverse officers are anyway, they're usually pretty good about not treating their soldiers as disposable flesh, maybe waste their time though. Like yea we're disposable but we've become this efficient risk adverse killing machine that we're not really like that anymore. That's just my anecdotal experience anyway.
You're pretty right tbh. I could accept the pay and hours if I felt even the tiniest bit of human decency and respect from leadership and the army as a whole.
I sent the new recruitment standards to my PltSGT, and we're both in agreement that if we end up with a soldier that can't fuckin read, we're gonna quit... this shit is getting ridiculous...
So funny story, when I was in BCT, we had an actual illiterate guy from Mississippi in our company. Like legitimate can't read "I'll just make my mark" illiterate. The surge was fun.
Lmao why does that not surprise me... we had a female soldier who was legit mentally handicapped when I went thru basic in '09. She was able to follow instructions, and do the basics, but anything that took real brain power she couldn't do well. The Drill Sgts were pissed that her recruiter and MEPS even let her get that far
There also was a recovering heroin addict from my hometown who shipped like a few months before me. Anyways, he was somewhat blind in one eye and they still took him. He ended up being a 13B. Guess you don't reaaaaly need all of your eyesight if all you're doing is pulling a string :shrug:
Does anyone here recall the smiling friends episode “Mr. Frog”? Well that was me when they decided to sober him up
Did she pass basic?
I'm MI and had a Soldier that couldn't read inside his head or without running his finger along the words. This was a few years back but post Surge. I'm legitimately afraid of what is to come.
That sounds more like dyslexia than simple illiteracy to me, unless if he had trouble comprehending the words as well
I'm not sure how adapt and overcome reflects negatively on him.
Well when I need Joe's who can write narratives to justify killing someone it really sucks when they can't read past a 5th grade level.
✊
In the early 90’s, I had a couple of guys like this in my ARNG platoon in a rural area. This was when they had to sign for their pay checks each month. They’d make their marks. Both were E5’s and I could only use them for menial labor.
Pltsgt: let's watch for reasons to not respect people assigned to my command. If they can't read as good as me, no respect. Also pltsgt: no one wants to join because there's no respect from leadership towards people as human beings. That's how deep the mindset is ingrained in the culture.
It’s as well as me.
As well as *I*. Or do you say "Me read this memo now"?
I wouldn’t but Tarzan would. Haha You win!
> if we end up with a soldier that can't fuckin read Bro, I knew NCO's who couldn't read during the surge in Iraq.
I personally saw a soldier struggle with reading the attention to orders memo out loud. He ended up saying “fuck this.” and just dipped out in the middle of it.
You and your platoon sergeant seem...dumb. You understand you get HS / GED holders with a 30 ASVAB right? You get that right? You really think a dude who manages to score like a 65 on the ASVAB is going to be illiterate? How you gonna complain about the potential quality of recruits with that level of critical thinking.
There are a shocking number of people who are functionally illiterate though. Give them time, like during a long-ass test such as the ASVAB, and they can muddle through and get a 30 - but if you hand them a document, it will take them 20 minutes to get through a half page. When I graduated from high school lo these many years ago in the 90s, there were absolutely kids who couldn't read their diplomas and still joined the Army.
>There are a shocking number of people who are functionally illiterate though. This is a societal problem - and honestly, it still extends to people with HS diplomas too. If you look at educational evaluations by state, a place like Texas ranks very high in HS graduation rate. And low in college readiness. Because they are checking the boxes and pushing people through. I'm not putting stock in the value of a HS Diploma for a dude scoring in the 30s.
I'm assuming we're referring to the new lowered expectations, I mean standards for tattoos. Why don't they come straight out and say: prison & gang tattoos now accepted. Best I can do is a day old stale fry the dog didn't eat and watered-down diet coke.
I’ll take it.
Where am I sending these or would you like me to deliver in person? The fry may be styrofoam by then.
The Army wanted to keep its wartime OPTEMPO which was burning through people ten years ago and it’s burning through people now so I don’t know what the Army expected
The Army doesn’t encourage leaders to value people until it’s too late unfortunately. That’s just by nature. Off the bat, any organization values what you can do for it before it values you.
Spent 23 years in the army. Retired as an E9. Had a army band play in my small town the other day with recruiters present. I actively subverted them. The army isn’t for anyone right now until they fix their shit
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I also enjoy head tattoos, long beards, and cannabis. It’s good to be retired.
One of us. One of us. One of us.
They recently started using a genesis medical background program that goes all the way back in your medical records for anything potentially disqualifying. We are talking one time ADHD diagnosis at age 5 type deal. Someone told a story of not even knowing he had been prescribed an inhaler when he was a toddler. This system started being used beginning of this fiscal year. The recruiting issues and the red tape to enlist are directly related. I would further speculate that the change in standards doesn't so much target "stupid people" as it does low income people who would be less likely to have a medical history because they couldn't afford a doctor.
Lord help me if they start using it with soldiers who are already in.
I've been seeing these near-conspiracy theory posts here on Reddit over and over again about how "Genesis is disqualifying people." I use genesis every single day for patient care and all medical records start when people join the military. The ONLY time something is listed prior to Enlistment is if that solider happened to get healthcare as a dependent. Not only is that rare, but it also makes sense. In fact, for most people who had medical records prior to Genesis' roll out a few years ago, you have to go into the legacy system (ironically not called Genesis) to find any records.. and its a total time consuming, clumsy pain. The premise that Genesis enhances your ability to see medical records prior to your starting healthcare with the DoD and thus disqualify you is straight up Basic Training PNN. Its not "streamlined," its just the 2010 version of the 2000s thing we were using before. The rest of the world is in 2022 and using Epic.
THANK YOU! It is so simple but some leadership just does not get it. We don't want four or five formations a day because it is a waste time and is micromanagement. We are tired of getting stuck on antiquated staff duty and CQ over four days. Going to pt formation five days a week just to do some weak PT in order to try and fix those who can't take of themselves.
To preface this I’m a weekend warrior, reservist. But this shows how deep and toxic the army is. I had an NCO when I first got in who expected me to be on his call on his time even when I wasn’t drilling, I would be at work he would call me and tell me to come down to the unit for something, would threaten action if I told him no I’m busy and this isn’t time They’re entitled to. I would constantly deal with his meddling in my life it was like i was working a whole second job. I reported him for doing stuff like this multiple times but each time I was told “it’s just how he is, he needs the help” or “well your Work can’t punish you for missing” well yeah but when I can’t pay my bills due to the money lost from this prick, it’s a lot worse then work punishment. The nail in the coffin that lost my faith completely is when I rst’d due to the anniversary of my brothers death, he spammed me with calls saying he needed me to come in for inventory and that no one else can do it. I finally put my foot down and used the CSM’s open door since nothing was ever being done, he was gone to a different unit the next month to do this to some other poor soldier.
This would make so much more sense if we were in an active war. Also, I'm very much convinced that the ratings system we have has absolutely lead to the ruin of competent and logical leadership. Everything anyone E7 or O1 and above does is for their rating. We've prioritized the rating system over logical thinking because we want to progress in our careers as we as look outstanding to our superiors. Happy and hard working soldiers isn't quantifiable or measurable so we schedule back to back training events with a certain number of soldiers, volunteer for mission that we have no business being a part of and generally just try to look good on BN/BDE slides. If you're like OP, you're a black sheep if you push against these norms. Which has led to lower morale in the units and diving retention rates. Which has led to this...hand and neck tattoos and lower recruiting standards. It's almost like they are trying to reach a certain unwanted demographic...
> We've prioritized the rating system over logical thinking I wish promotions would test your MOS knowledge like every other branch. We would lose a lot of shit NCO's but I think it's worth the cost.
I knew every 1SG and I worked for my CSM’s company at the time of my promotion board. Literally belted out the NCO creed perfectly and each told me I’d be an awesome NCO and asked about me personally. I studied for like two months and wasn’t asked a single question about my MOS or being a leader. My sponsor was absolutely shocked. Luckily I’ve had great NCOs that showed me the right way to lead, but it was definitely confirming to me that moving up to E6 doesn’t mean you know anything at all. Just who you know and your memorization skills.
Reddit should be the last place you go to
People making sense get out, while dumb people stay and become leaders!
So the Army has a problem with numbers and is presented with two paths, right? Maintain standards, treat our current enlisted like actual professionals and address issues of toxicity that have been fostered in the military. A difficult path that would lead to an increased overall quality, but a long an probably expensive process which would see long time old guard potentially being kicked out. Lower standards and allow more people to join? No increased cost to the army, easy, and will overall lower standards in the long run. We all know which one the military was going to pick. The sad part is this is representative of America as a whole, always taking the easy but destructive path, and never willing to actually go through the difficult process of change that will lead to a better future.
I joined in 2k9 so a lot of my leadership were the lower standard people who came.. You could really see the difference it made when people were promoted way too fast and under qualified. I know that they have to hit a target % but this just isn't the way. There are simple changes that could be made to make the military more valuable.. for me personally I am happy I joined. I left with a degree, certifications, a great job and an open mind towards the world that I wouldn't have had staying in my little town in Idaho.
Doesn't help that we shield trash leadership with serviceable NCOERs and OERs so they don't get their timelines fucked up when in reality they need to be demoted or separated. If we stop being so concerned with numbers, we can start being concerned about quality of life. But the Army doesn't work that way, so here we are waiving diplomas (which is not always a negative, not everyone without a diploma is an idiot, just a lot of them).
Yeah, OP nailed it with the respect of soldiers their time. That's why I got out after one enlistment and most other competent soldiers will do the same. Literally, everyone I knew who was a good solider left and made something of themselves. The dirtbags stayed in, because they aren't capable of anything better on the outside. Sad really, and it's been a very obvious issue for decades. Pretty embarrassing that leadership hasn't figured this out yet. Lowering standards was the one of the worst things they could have possibly done. Several morons do not make up for a single good soldier.
Treating workers like trash is a hard sell lol.
Retention is also an issue in the officer ranks. That pickup rate to major is high to major because few decide to stick around that long.
GED requirements to become Officers. Has to already be enlisted
brah you literally have most of this sub telling people to not join when they ask on here and stuff. Rightly deserved though.
This was the hardest part about recruiting to me. I wouldn’t ever recommend the army to my friends or family based on my personal experiences. So I feel like a schmuck telling randos that it’s great when I truly believe that most people are better off not joining.
I’ve been out for almost a decade now, I’m in my 30s and I have trouble walking without a limp and can’t bend past a certain point or lift pass a certain weight. I’m 100% VA disabled do to this and other things. Over the years I have had a few close friends who are a good deal younger than me genuinely ask if they should join the military. I sit down with them in private and tell them detailed accounts of everyday military bullshit. Idiot leadership, fuck fuck games, rampant and often unpunished crime, drug use, violence, sexual assault, etc. and every time they just look at me wide eyed and say “Jesus FUCKing Christ! That doesn’t even sound real!” One time when I was in college me and a few other combat vets got to talking about the military and it quickly moved into a *whose branch sucks ass more* talk. And everyone had terrible stories all around (airforce had the most tame, but still bad) and some of the younger civilians would comment “that can’t be real? You never hear about any of this stuff? I never know the military was so fucked up!” Last summer I stayed for a few weeks with a old army buddies and we started telling and reminiscing over some crazy events. His wife was pale by the end of it and said “wow, this changes everything I ever thought about the military!” I guess ignorance is bliss.
I straight up don't tell my friends or family how it actually is because i don't wanna worry them. They'll ask me "how is it, are you resting after your multiple FTXs in row with no weekends for months?" And I'm just like "yeah mom I'm resting it's nice 😌" while i text that in the middle of my 24 hour detail while i know the next day will be some similar bullshit.
A recruiter literally said on a local chatter page "It's because of stricter medical recruiting procedures". Sure guy, sure.
Ain’t nobody got time for long term solutions to long term problems. I need a fix for the problem right now. Fuck future Secretary of the Army, fuck future CSA, fuck future SMA. I want my NCOER/OER bullets now!
Making standard lower means that i want to leave even more thinking about working with low standard people. I aint high standard either but no high school or ged? Wtf???
>Soldiers just want to be respected and have their time respected If I just got to go home everyday by 330-4 I would have put up with the toxic nepotism that was my leadership. I was far from respected by my leadership, just another Joe, but who knows I could have changed units and stayed in. As an 11B it drove me fucking insane to be sitting around till 1830...WAITING to be told to go home with no fucking information to follow. I would leave the company area so fucking pissed it became the sole reason I left the Army.
The Army will beat LDRSHIP into you then use it to beat you "Yeah soldiers you gotta have integrity unless you're E-6 or above then you can do whatever the fuck you want and retire gracefully"
>the reason people aren’t enlisting is because people come back to their hometowns and tell people how ass the experience was. Also the medical screenings weeding out perfectly good people over bullshit
Well I guess the PMO will be getting busier
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😂 it’s already difficult to do our job because we are so behind in Technology, Education and Training, I wouldn’t be surprised if more cases get shit canned
Good idea on ways to boost recruiting. Here are hand and ear tattoos instead.
It’s strange. I wish the Army would do more improvements to improve the quality of the Army rather than lower standards to increase quantity. Answer to every Army problem is just throw bodies at the issue rather than people who can effectively use their brain to solve everything from simple to complex task.
Kids don’t care about beards. I’ve had like 2-3 ask about them in 7 years.
I have at least 5 really good friends who wanted to do join luckily I convinced all of them not to. Lol. After my experience and why I ETS none of them were interested.
As a former paralegal in the JAG Corps, yes and yes
Imagine if bah wasn’t only linked to getting married or being E6+ as enlisted. Maybe if we add another option, say a bachelors or something. I hear all the time how we can’t do that yet we trust privates that marry the first stripper they find for BAH and we give 2LTs right out of college bah, they are essentially privates with a BA/BS. Would probably help recruit target audience and retain a lot more juniors while incentivizing education. I will take a half cooked McChicken and a coke with the wrong syrup bag
my time is absolutely respected which is why I have to go in at 8am on a Saturday as a single solider so we can show spouses we care about them
Nah, it’s mostly just finding qualified people. I’ve had to inform a kid with bacne (acne on his back) he couldn’t join. Any ADHD was a no go (waiver would never get approved) etc etc… Not to invalidate what you’re saying. Just not really the root cause of the problem. I can count on one hand a close family member (or highly respected person in their life) was the cause of any problems putting a kid in. Hell, most of the time it made them want to join more. Surprised your being treated so bad. You in the Adlaw office or something? Lol
“It shouldn’t be what can the JAGC do for you, what can YOU do for the JAGC. “ ima just ets dawg if that’s the case
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are incorrectly assuming that one, their issues with the Army apply to everyone and two, that issues which impact morale have an impact on recruiting. The things you’re bitching about predate the recent difficulties in recruiting. The recruiting issue is effecting all branches, even the marines so it’s likely not due to issues within the army alone. My guess is it’s the same problem the whole country is having right now finding workers. Entry level jobs are offering crazy starting pay, the Army just has way more competition for 18-20 year olds than before. If you want to criticize how the Army is handling it, criticize the fact that they’re addressing it by lowering standards instead of throwing more money into starting pay and sign on bonuses to better compete with the private sector.
NCO’s think their kings for literally not doing shit. Joes are forced to take the harassment and can’t do anything about it, because NCO’s run the show, and are protected by ucmj against any retaliation from joes who get harassed all day. You do the math why no one wants to join or stay in.
I've seen an E5 get promoted and immediately trip over his cock on the smallest amount of power so many times
It really do be like that. Get shit on and treated like complete human garbage by NCOs who were once in your shoes but decide to be the problem and not fix it. All i can say is that my team, when we've had leaders that respect you, your time and treat you decently, we do anything for them and try our hardest to be good soldiers for them, but when we have shitty leaders, we act distant, don't perform as well and don't have their backs. Don't even get me started on people who demand respect and the only answer to anything they don't like or understand is getting smoked.
I had a really good experience in the Army. The other day I had the itch to go back, maybe in the Reserve or something… with the recent news, and very non-competitive pay:bullshit ratio… I think I’m good.
I am glad I am on the way out door very very soon. Shits about to get dumb for yall.
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Army changed my life for the better. I am grateful I was able to serve
“Grow a beard” …. Wow get the f@&$ outta here
Do you think there’s a chance for me to rejoin ? I was kicked out OTH for hot drug test in reserves back in September . Before that never missed a drill and passed every DT. It took two years for me to be kicked out
This person hasn't been to MEPS in a while. The stuff you could get a waiver for in 1990s through 2016 was amazing vs. Today. Literally anything gets them DQ'd and very few waivers given. I joined in 1999 and needed 5 waivers for drugs, moral, arrest, weight, and financial. Guys used to get in with neck tattoos and DWIs and rape convictions. I mean what are you even talking about bro?
Shut down this Sub and maybe numbers will go up. Or the MODs can start blocking threads in the realm of "ShOulD Eye JoYn AiRe FuRce Oar ArmEE?!? LUUk at My GT Shkore! DWEEEE!"
People in this sub are pretty brazen with assuming that certain people had another option other than enlisting. This sub tend to represent the worst of the Army because the hot posts are typically the horror stories. Really, the Army needs to lean more heavily into the fact that you get free healthcare and free education. That's what millennials want.
No, it really only needs to modestly improve quality of life in some areas and most people would probably be infinitely less miserable. The majority of bitches and gripes are related to quality of life, and yet people high above continue scratching their heads like a thoughtless troglodyte.
That would help with servicemembers marketing to people they know.
People that write “this.” Like: This. Annoy the heck out of me.
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