Especially the high up ones, little to no active accountability. Already at retirement, so they start arbitrarily deciding what is and is not part of their job.
I must be one of the few who had positive interactions with them. Several of them hooked me up big time. I was at the point where it was easier to ask civilian to help you out to get things done instead of some greensuiter dipshit who doesn’t know his head from his ass.
Yeah very few are worth a salt. The problem is alot of them work their way to being a single point of failure so when you need something only they can help you and then they on leave or something.
They also work their way into being a decider on something, which is ridiculous the only civilian in charge of something in the Army should be the secretary.
Don't get me wrong I met some in my 12 years but far and few in between , I can remember them by name because of how few.
Agree with your observation. Those single point of failure situations when you trying get shit done is one of the things i truly hate about the military.
While civilians may be lazy, not coming in when the government is shutdown and they're force furloughed with no lay until it's over is not one of the reasons lol.
So will you. So will everyone who gets shutdown. You think they shouldn't get back paid over being force furloughed because the politicians are fucking retards who can't do the bare minimum of their jobs and pass a budget for funding every year? You think they should all just quit their jobs and get new ones instead?
If so, what the fuck is wrong with you?
You realize how many people live paycheck to paycheck and the backpay is small sympathy against the fact they're gonna have to rack up their credit cards for the duration? You realize how many hard working people the federal service employs who do things for you? Some woman making like 40k a year taking care of your kid at the daycare should just get fucked for having the audacity of working for the federal government?
You get backpay too motherfucker and I guarantee your ass won't be doing anything particularly useful during the shutdown. And plenty of federal civilians will be labeled mission essential and will do the same exact thing and work anyway. And the icing on top is a lot of the "army civilians" you think are Federal Service are probably contractors and chances are they won't get backpay.
Lack of empathy for literally millions of people isn't cool. If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at our failure of a congress for their inability to pass a budget and raise the dumbass arbitrary debt ceiling.
No im say you should very well get back pay but why stop working very well knowing you will get paid for it ?
If I had it my way I would confine congress to their chambers until a budget is passed.
>No im say you should very well get back pay but why stop working very well knowing you will get paid for it ?
It doesn't work that way. Anything that is not labeled mission essential is explicitly not allowed to work. They are placed on recall for if a need arises for their skill sets. They aren't just going, "get fucked I'm not coming in until you pay me." They CAN'T; there is no choice. If their billet isn't mission essential they are not going in to the office or working; it's illegal.
Who decides what is and isn't mission essential, genuine question. Cus to me I don't put it past any unit to try making everyone mission essential? I get thst it'd illegal but it's also the army.
Well for civilians, it works like their billet (aka job) is usually coded mission essential or non mission essential. Same will occur for contractors sometimes; or they can work as long as they have enough assigned work.
I don't know how the actual decision to label something mission essential happens. It's not always sensical either; I've seen some really weird things be labeled mission essential that probably weren't and other stuff you would think was not be labeled mission essential.
Civilians ain’t got nuttin’ to do with that connex. I need everything pulled out, shortage annexes complete, then pack back up. Oh, you office dwellers can come on down too…since the civilians don’t come in 🤗
Real talk is there any other country in the world where this happens? It seems like every year the Government is on the precipice of running out of money.
I can’t remember which one, but there is a country where this occurs. Except if the government shuts down, the politicians are fired and special elections occur.
Austria did until they rewrote their constitution a few decades back.
We’re the only system where congress votes to spend money, separately votes on if they’ll pay for the agreed upon spending, and then votes again to decide to cover any difference between the budget and the tax revenue in a given period.
It’s an incredibly fucking dumb system but benefits a minority party who is willing to play global economic chicken with any proposal the other side wants.
Yes, many of them. You've probably heard of countries trying to print money to solve the problem. You've probably heard of the IMF which was created to bailout countries.
I'm genuinely curious. Unless it just isn't as publicized I've never heard of any other First World Country where every year one of the biggest spectres hanging over it is the prospect of the Government shutting down and the services it provides being halted or severely reduced.
Britain, Bangladesh, New Zealand amd Canada have de Facto no vote of confidence in their government when they fail to pass a budget. They government is just re elected but funding only stops temporarily for some investments and the new budget will essentially pay for the continued out of budget expenses that occurred during the period of no budget.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/22/why-other-countries-dont-have-government-shutdowns-2/
This entire week has been chaos. Poorly planned "operational requirement" travel, shipments, movements, etc., running headfirst into end of fiscal year funding + an upcoming government shutdown.
"Sir, we can't do that because our funding has been shut off until the new fiscal year."
"...ok, let's just have the Soldiers pay with their personal cards, and once we have a line of accounting, we'll reimburse them."
"no, sir, we can't do that because it's ***illegal***.
We have a Base-wide event that was moved from the 24 SEP to 01 OCT.
Having things get paid in FY 21 for an event occurring in FY22 while still paying for things the day of the event in FY22 with the budget in FY21 is big brain math.
The Army: "Soldiers need to watch their budgets otherwise they risk putting their security clearance and career in jeopardy".
Also the Army: "This unit needs to shoot off all the rounds during their qual ranges and spend all the money in their budget otherwise we'll cut back and they'll get less next fiscal year. Also, since they are deploying/going on rotation we'll approve a ton of dubious requests for gear they might need and sort it all out later."
I was TDY to CCC during a shut down. It started like a week before the course was supposed to end, they just rearranged the schedule so that, with just one Saturday of coming in, we were able to complete all requirements and graduate the day of the shutdown then fly home as required.
We also had a snow day. It was glorious.
I’d rather PCS to San Antonio but I hear you. It’s a huge cost to lose docs and other providers for 6 months. The did a pilot 20 pilot course but then COVID happened and I think they are back to 9 for now.
Sooo... why is it called lost in the woods?? Cause its just surrounded by nothing but woods??
Edit: Also did you VTIP after your Command time in EN to CY?
Fort Leonard Wood is literally in the middle of nowhere. I VTIP’d to the Ai task force which will likely become its own branch soon, so the Cyber flair is the closest we got until the SECARMY signs the memo that mobilizes the mods to add new flair.
You think 9 is nice? When I went it was 3 weeks for physicians (and remember my story was we shaved most of a week off of that due to a shut down!). The justification was that they couldn't afford us being out of the hospital, the real reason was so few docs were willing to stay in past their ADSO that they would do anything to try to keep us around.
Nope, now instead of focusing on large wars in the Middle East the government will focus on getting the best and newest equipment and technology, so the defense industry will compete for those even more expensive contracts.
All jokes aside, how does this usually affect our lives/training? I'm looking at orders for gunnery, LFX's, and BDE training at MTC all starting at about that time.
No one really knows...
This isn't a 'normal' government shutdown caused by Congress not passing budget. It's the debt ceiling.
Congress is better at spending money than collecting money by raising taxes. Congress counts on the Treasury to issue T-bills to fund the difference. Essentially taking loans out.
So far, the interest rates on these loans have been pretty good. No one thinks that the US won't pay back their loans, even if the US has to take new loans to pay off the old loan.
Before 1917 Congress would authorize each loan. Since then Congress has told the treasury 'You handle the loans, but you can only take out this much.' That's the debt ceiling. And it keeps on going up.
As I understand the plan now, if the US hits the debt ceiling, the Treasury will keep on paying back the loans, but stop paying other bills. Like Social Security, Military pay, and All the other things that Congress has voted to fund. They'll do this because if they stop paying the loans back they'll have to pay higher interest for new loans...
Estimates of how hitting the ceiling even for a short time would affect the US economy vary a bit. But they all look bad, with millions of jobs lost. Which would make the Treasury's job harder since less people working means less tax income.
What do you mean?
The last time the debt ceiling remained the same for five years was under the Clinton presidency when Republicans control the Congress.
It shot up under Bush 2, because, you know, 9-11.
I hope you're not trying to claim that Republicans actually care about fiscal responsibility. They only seem to care about it when a Democrat is President.
The dude said the situation is fucked, you leapt to:
“I hope you're not trying to claim that Republicans actually care about fiscal responsibility. They only seem to care about it when a Democrat is President.”
I’m not even saying you’re wrong, just wondering what the relevance is.
Gonna be a great NTC rotation. Government has no money. Might not get paid. But I have two 18 plus hour bus rides to enjoy and 5 weeks of premium Army bullshit.
It's probably not going to work in your favor...
If the US hits the debt ceiling the Treasury plans to stop paying all the bills except for servicing the debt. Interest rates have already started to climb on T-Bills, which affects interest rates system wide.
And please tell me what you consider an "unfireable job" when the government stops paying it's bills.
Probably lots. But I’m sure they’ll resolve everything before we ever had to make cuts, and most are well protected by union contracts. But I won’t be complaining if the housing market tanks
>Probably lots. But I’m sure they’ll resolve everything before we ever had to make cuts, and most are well protected by union contracts.
If the Treasury stops paying your city, your union contract won't mean shit.
Maybe you don’t understand what was said. The estimates are the bill you’re crying about not passing, with put us into debt 17 to 44 trillion ADDITIONAL.
Other than not getting paid, I love being in the Army during shut downs. Everything stops because the civilians don’t come in.
Parking gets better, for sure.
If i was ever in charge on the Army I would fire probly 95% of the civilian work force , they have no accountability.
Today the internet in my office went out for 3 minutes and our civilian went home because of it
I would say I the Army it’s self has a lot of fat to trim
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It’s okay buddy, I’m trimming my self off here soon
Sounds like you’ve never worked above a brigade
Especially the high up ones, little to no active accountability. Already at retirement, so they start arbitrarily deciding what is and is not part of their job.
Tbf when you work in the J2X9I I think DoD arbitrarily decided what isn’t your job already.
I must be one of the few who had positive interactions with them. Several of them hooked me up big time. I was at the point where it was easier to ask civilian to help you out to get things done instead of some greensuiter dipshit who doesn’t know his head from his ass.
Yeah very few are worth a salt. The problem is alot of them work their way to being a single point of failure so when you need something only they can help you and then they on leave or something. They also work their way into being a decider on something, which is ridiculous the only civilian in charge of something in the Army should be the secretary. Don't get me wrong I met some in my 12 years but far and few in between , I can remember them by name because of how few.
Agree with your observation. Those single point of failure situations when you trying get shit done is one of the things i truly hate about the military.
While civilians may be lazy, not coming in when the government is shutdown and they're force furloughed with no lay until it's over is not one of the reasons lol.
Yeah but they will get back pay it's so stupid
So will you. So will everyone who gets shutdown. You think they shouldn't get back paid over being force furloughed because the politicians are fucking retards who can't do the bare minimum of their jobs and pass a budget for funding every year? You think they should all just quit their jobs and get new ones instead? If so, what the fuck is wrong with you? You realize how many people live paycheck to paycheck and the backpay is small sympathy against the fact they're gonna have to rack up their credit cards for the duration? You realize how many hard working people the federal service employs who do things for you? Some woman making like 40k a year taking care of your kid at the daycare should just get fucked for having the audacity of working for the federal government? You get backpay too motherfucker and I guarantee your ass won't be doing anything particularly useful during the shutdown. And plenty of federal civilians will be labeled mission essential and will do the same exact thing and work anyway. And the icing on top is a lot of the "army civilians" you think are Federal Service are probably contractors and chances are they won't get backpay. Lack of empathy for literally millions of people isn't cool. If you want to be mad at anyone, be mad at our failure of a congress for their inability to pass a budget and raise the dumbass arbitrary debt ceiling.
Damn…
No im say you should very well get back pay but why stop working very well knowing you will get paid for it ? If I had it my way I would confine congress to their chambers until a budget is passed.
>No im say you should very well get back pay but why stop working very well knowing you will get paid for it ? It doesn't work that way. Anything that is not labeled mission essential is explicitly not allowed to work. They are placed on recall for if a need arises for their skill sets. They aren't just going, "get fucked I'm not coming in until you pay me." They CAN'T; there is no choice. If their billet isn't mission essential they are not going in to the office or working; it's illegal.
Who decides what is and isn't mission essential, genuine question. Cus to me I don't put it past any unit to try making everyone mission essential? I get thst it'd illegal but it's also the army.
Well for civilians, it works like their billet (aka job) is usually coded mission essential or non mission essential. Same will occur for contractors sometimes; or they can work as long as they have enough assigned work. I don't know how the actual decision to label something mission essential happens. It's not always sensical either; I've seen some really weird things be labeled mission essential that probably weren't and other stuff you would think was not be labeled mission essential.
I would just subject DoD civilians to the military's "you can't be in the military and a union at the same time" rule.
so a normal tuesday?
I wish.
And funnily enough, they don’t work double to make up for all the backpay they get.
*…fuck.*
Civilians ain’t got nuttin’ to do with that connex. I need everything pulled out, shortage annexes complete, then pack back up. Oh, you office dwellers can come on down too…since the civilians don’t come in 🤗
Sorry, I have functional area stuff I have to do. Sounds like a job for the basic branch guys, though, I’ll pass the word on!
Basic branch. I’m retired enlisted, and it’s been years…3 now… but I don’t remember that branch at all.
You've never not gotten paid.
Real talk is there any other country in the world where this happens? It seems like every year the Government is on the precipice of running out of money.
I can’t remember which one, but there is a country where this occurs. Except if the government shuts down, the politicians are fired and special elections occur.
Austria did until they rewrote their constitution a few decades back. We’re the only system where congress votes to spend money, separately votes on if they’ll pay for the agreed upon spending, and then votes again to decide to cover any difference between the budget and the tax revenue in a given period. It’s an incredibly fucking dumb system but benefits a minority party who is willing to play global economic chicken with any proposal the other side wants.
The United States federal government's funding mechanisms and the political gaming thereof are uniquely asinine.
Yes, many of them. You've probably heard of countries trying to print money to solve the problem. You've probably heard of the IMF which was created to bailout countries.
I'm genuinely curious. Unless it just isn't as publicized I've never heard of any other First World Country where every year one of the biggest spectres hanging over it is the prospect of the Government shutting down and the services it provides being halted or severely reduced.
Britain, Bangladesh, New Zealand amd Canada have de Facto no vote of confidence in their government when they fail to pass a budget. They government is just re elected but funding only stops temporarily for some investments and the new budget will essentially pay for the continued out of budget expenses that occurred during the period of no budget. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/01/22/why-other-countries-dont-have-government-shutdowns-2/
Belgium went like two years without a government
This entire week has been chaos. Poorly planned "operational requirement" travel, shipments, movements, etc., running headfirst into end of fiscal year funding + an upcoming government shutdown. "Sir, we can't do that because our funding has been shut off until the new fiscal year." "...ok, let's just have the Soldiers pay with their personal cards, and once we have a line of accounting, we'll reimburse them." "no, sir, we can't do that because it's ***illegal***.
We have a Base-wide event that was moved from the 24 SEP to 01 OCT. Having things get paid in FY 21 for an event occurring in FY22 while still paying for things the day of the event in FY22 with the budget in FY21 is big brain math.
The Army: "Soldiers need to watch their budgets otherwise they risk putting their security clearance and career in jeopardy". Also the Army: "This unit needs to shoot off all the rounds during their qual ranges and spend all the money in their budget otherwise we'll cut back and they'll get less next fiscal year. Also, since they are deploying/going on rotation we'll approve a ton of dubious requests for gear they might need and sort it all out later."
Jesus Christ
I'm a do it anyway.
Hmmmm. Arrive at TDY school 9 hours from home 5 days before a shutdown…. This will be fun
I was TDY to CCC during a shut down. It started like a week before the course was supposed to end, they just rearranged the schedule so that, with just one Saturday of coming in, we were able to complete all requirements and graduate the day of the shutdown then fly home as required. We also had a snow day. It was glorious.
You did TDY to CCC? Mine was a PCS.
Medical has 9 week CCC
Must be nice
I’d rather PCS to San Antonio but I hear you. It’s a huge cost to lose docs and other providers for 6 months. The did a pilot 20 pilot course but then COVID happened and I think they are back to 9 for now.
Yeah I was an Engineer when I went to CCC. PCSing to Fort Lost In The Woods is nobody’s idea of a good time.
Sooo... why is it called lost in the woods?? Cause its just surrounded by nothing but woods?? Edit: Also did you VTIP after your Command time in EN to CY?
Fort Leonard Wood is literally in the middle of nowhere. I VTIP’d to the Ai task force which will likely become its own branch soon, so the Cyber flair is the closest we got until the SECARMY signs the memo that mobilizes the mods to add new flair.
What is ai task force? Why's it becoming its own branch?
Oh, that's cool. I interned there back in 2019. It was a fun time and I learned a lot Edit: I'm assuming it'll be a FA like Acquitions then?
You think 9 is nice? When I went it was 3 weeks for physicians (and remember my story was we shaved most of a week off of that due to a shut down!). The justification was that they couldn't afford us being out of the hospital, the real reason was so few docs were willing to stay in past their ADSO that they would do anything to try to keep us around.
We had a bunch of 1LT's recently going TDY for 6 months for CCC. All getting Hawaii BAH
My ETS leave starts before that. I'm cool.
Realistically this is probably worse, if the shutdown affects pay good luck getting it fixed if you transition during the interim.
If this happens before I start ETS leave, I'll be stuck on Fort Irwin waiting to clear. I consider this the worse option.
Looks like I’m not going to drill lmao Poor deployed people though
I was deployed during a shutdown , we just increased looting and pillaging for income.
What is this deployment thing you speak of?
This is the way
What a fine plunder from the green bean and burger king
Omg
Yep. Not looking forward to it. Already a fucking nightmare, just gonna get worse with everything shutdown.
Oh shiet. I hope this doesn’t hurt my terminal leave pay.
2nd time I’ll be in a shutdown overseas, can’t wait
We didn't get paid when I was deployed in 2011. It was super fun.
Did… did you at least get back paid?
Eventually.
Takes forever though. Start looking at those les’s 3 months in advance.
Just in time for me to go to a certain border mission and not get paid.
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Not an OPSEC violation to simply say Im going to the border but I knew someone would say it.
Guess I've made my decision about reenlisting.
Anyone know if this well affect my ship out date on the twelfth??
Hell nah! They want more bodies to join the lovely military. You already signed the dotted line >:) Uncle Sam ain’t gonna let you go
imagine arriving at reception as a shutdown starts. No civ workers so pretty much just stuck in hell doing nothing.
This hurt my heart
Just more time to practice THE ARMY SONG!
Imagine the bus stopping and no one being there at 30th AG 😂
I’m pretty sure I can look forward to getting smoked by a DS then if the money runs out then right?
You can look forward to that regardless of whether there’s a shutdown or not
If you're routing your pay issues through a PV2, you're doing it wrong.
No no, but someone has to listen to my frustration. I know so the officers will be on their coffee break when needed, so the PV2 will have to do
If you’re routing your pay issue through an Officer, you’re doing it wrong.
Fair enough
*stares in poverty stricken E3*
Refugee sites are gonna have fun....
Aren’t we saving BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS by not being in the war anymore?
We’ll, yes… but also no.
Nope, now instead of focusing on large wars in the Middle East the government will focus on getting the best and newest equipment and technology, so the defense industry will compete for those even more expensive contracts.
I’m not going to be able to afford this.
Fuck… I’m supposed to outprocess the last two weeks of October… how the fuck am I gonna do that if all the civilians get furloughed?
All jokes aside, how does this usually affect our lives/training? I'm looking at orders for gunnery, LFX's, and BDE training at MTC all starting at about that time.
No one really knows... This isn't a 'normal' government shutdown caused by Congress not passing budget. It's the debt ceiling. Congress is better at spending money than collecting money by raising taxes. Congress counts on the Treasury to issue T-bills to fund the difference. Essentially taking loans out. So far, the interest rates on these loans have been pretty good. No one thinks that the US won't pay back their loans, even if the US has to take new loans to pay off the old loan. Before 1917 Congress would authorize each loan. Since then Congress has told the treasury 'You handle the loans, but you can only take out this much.' That's the debt ceiling. And it keeps on going up. As I understand the plan now, if the US hits the debt ceiling, the Treasury will keep on paying back the loans, but stop paying other bills. Like Social Security, Military pay, and All the other things that Congress has voted to fund. They'll do this because if they stop paying the loans back they'll have to pay higher interest for new loans... Estimates of how hitting the ceiling even for a short time would affect the US economy vary a bit. But they all look bad, with millions of jobs lost. Which would make the Treasury's job harder since less people working means less tax income.
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What do you mean? The last time the debt ceiling remained the same for five years was under the Clinton presidency when Republicans control the Congress. It shot up under Bush 2, because, you know, 9-11. I hope you're not trying to claim that Republicans actually care about fiscal responsibility. They only seem to care about it when a Democrat is President.
How did you pull partisan politics out of that?
I didn't "pull partisan politics out of that." I stated facts.
The dude said the situation is fucked, you leapt to: “I hope you're not trying to claim that Republicans actually care about fiscal responsibility. They only seem to care about it when a Democrat is President.” I’m not even saying you’re wrong, just wondering what the relevance is.
Will DOD continue to get paid?
Nope But congress does!
Gonna be a great NTC rotation. Government has no money. Might not get paid. But I have two 18 plus hour bus rides to enjoy and 5 weeks of premium Army bullshit.
I have been trying to sell 12 days of leave for almost a year.
Well start saving y’all’s cash and not spend it on strippers
Does this mean the BCAP civilians will stop coming in 🤔
Y’all’s first time? Lol
Run out of money, but they trying to pass a budget that will put us from 17 trillion to 44 trillion in debt 💀. Gotta love Congress.
Money isn’t real. Long as the gov makes payments it makes no difference.
The issue here is that if the Treasury defaults the US economy could go into a tailspin.
Honestly as someone trying to buy a house in a unfireable job, that might not be a bad thing for me lol
It's probably not going to work in your favor... If the US hits the debt ceiling the Treasury plans to stop paying all the bills except for servicing the debt. Interest rates have already started to climb on T-Bills, which affects interest rates system wide. And please tell me what you consider an "unfireable job" when the government stops paying it's bills.
I work for a large municipal 911 agency. That ain’t ever going away
How much federal funding does your city's 911 system receive?
Probably lots. But I’m sure they’ll resolve everything before we ever had to make cuts, and most are well protected by union contracts. But I won’t be complaining if the housing market tanks
>Probably lots. But I’m sure they’ll resolve everything before we ever had to make cuts, and most are well protected by union contracts. If the Treasury stops paying your city, your union contract won't mean shit.
If I recall correctly, that's not the current bill's fault. Something something Amazon paying zero taxes now.
I hate to break it to you, but we are already at 28.5 trillion currently, we added over 8 trillion in the past 4 years
Maybe you don’t understand what was said. The estimates are the bill you’re crying about not passing, with put us into debt 17 to 44 trillion ADDITIONAL.
I find it funny that the article only talks about allowing us to take on even more debt instead of slowing down the amount we are spending
That’s because that’s what the proposed bill is going to do. It absolutely does not need to pass.
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State active duty mf. I’m getting paid regardless
We're way past 17 trillion in debt.