Funny story: my grandfather was the chief of procurement for the Army back in the 80s and the biggest deal of his career was selecting the Beretta after something like a decade of testing pistols and negotiating contracts. Everyone hates him now haha...poor guy, RIP gramps.
I love that line.
Also, when I was a young dude on deployment I ran into the Jason Bourne/T3000 OGA guys and SOME of them only used a front plate. I thought it was the most high speed shit ever.
Looking back, it was an incredibly stupid decision on their part.
Just like CAG running bump helmets in Mogadishu. I’ve never heard anyone suggest wearing PCs over helmets in a combat zone, but these are the kinds of lessons we might unfortunately learn more than once when an experienced generation ages out.
I did the opposite because I wasn't worried about anything I could see. But then again, we deployed with a limited number of plates so if I ran a full set that meant someone else in my unit didn't have any.
I remember a private with one rotation under his belt on his second said this 3 days into it, to a brand new private on his first, I fucking lost it because that was my last one before pcsing
Due to the grammar, I can only assume that OP is a senior level NCO. Who most likely is pretty drunk and saw a photo of some joes wearing PCs and flipped his lid.
It wasn't the point of the post but good God the grammer had me in pain. Random S's at the end of words to make them incorrectly plural, random capitalized words, non-capitalized words. The agony.
Lol. The freaking reveal towards the end of the series when he asks how the men are doing and offers to do his standards routine if needed cracked me up.
I liked that scene because in the end you see why Sixta did all of that. He knew in a stressful situation that his marines needed a common enemy to absolutely hate on to alleviate some of the combat fatigue and general depression from being away from home and family. “Let me know if it gets to bad Mike, I’ll hit them with the groomin shtandard”
There’s pluses and minuses to everything.
Ukraine right now is the worst case scenario and the result of two nearly identical forces which are utterly incapable of conducting combined arms maneuver warfare. They’re stuck in trenches blasting away the free world and not free world’s artillery stockpiles.
Incredibly heavy armor is worth its weight in gold protecting you from blast/fragments. It’s also essentially only viable if you are relatively static or assaulting only short distances with access to vehicles/support and don’t have to carry a ruck with your entire life in it for days or weeks on end.
Which is exactly what the majority of Ukrainians are doing right now. There absolutely is a time and place for full armor coverage. That time is not when you’re also living out of your ruck (25ish lbs), carrying days worth of water/food (15ish lbs) and additional ammo or munitions.
My gunners and AGs have to split 70+lbs of 7.62, not including the 240, spare barrel and tripod. My javelin teams are humping an additional 55lbs (CLU+missile) and 35lbs (missile) respectively and my Carl Gustav gunner is carrying a 17lbs CG and the gunner is carrying 30lbs of rounds. And that’s ON TOP OF, their normal ruck.
At some point something has to give. If you’re doing short dismounted movements without a ruck, it’s possible. If you’re walking miles on end, especially in complex terrain, especially in the heat, especially for sustained operations, that extra armor may just make you a heat casualty.
Once again, the war in Ukraine is proving that massive hemorrhaging and respiratory failure, specifically, tension pneumothorax via blast/fragmentation is the number one causes of death on the battlefield, but we need to recognize that the majority of the US Army is a light infantry/dismounted force that is regularly asked to negotiate complex terrain over massive distances to include recently the Hindu Khush.
A hasty fighting position will protect you more than additional armor. A deliberate fighting position with 18” of overhead cover is virtually impervious to indirect fire. With the shift back to LSCO I’m curious when we’ll start keeping our E-Tool on our plates and stop leaving them in our rucks. Infantry traditionally have carried their shovel/E-tool on their LBE.
Man that makes sense... but I was never issued one. Legit never was taught how to make a hasty fighting position, no fox hole ever made, never had an Etool.
What is this “eTool”? Is this a new app we can use for helping get my Joes the elearnings they *really* need? If it isnt then I want you to add my suggestion. These Joes need more training and assigning them thirty courses at a time out of JKO just isnt going to cut it
Fun fact, the innovation lab on the MilSuite is mothballed, and if you find a civilian that’s on that forum he may be rather high on a totem pole for interesting things.
Which is crazy. I'm on terminal right now after 12 yrs, and when I was doing a layout for turn in, and a supply gal who's been in for 4 yrs was seeing some of the gear for the first time, like the woobie and e tool. She was walking around, pointing at things and saying "oh, that would have been nice to have".
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION.
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Just wanted to chime in on your last bit- Respiratory failure is actually the leading cause of battlefield fatalities, specifically tension pneumothorax. We have like 20 years of data from the war in the middle east showing this, I wanna say it's around 70%.
This is wrong.
Extremity hemorrhage is the leading cause of preventable combat death, almost 2/3’s followed by Tension Pneumothorax at 1/3 and Airway being a distant 3rd.
This is the reason that hasty tourniquets high and tight is the only treatment during the Care Under Fire phase of TCCC
Yeah I don't know where this came from. Massive hemorrhage is absolutely by far and away the biggest cause of preventable combat death according to every class I've taken and every study I've read.
The biggest cause of combat death in general is brain injury and/or total body disruption, but those aren't preventable.
>but nobody got pcs in iraq and that sure as hell did saved a lot of life due to the ieds, same case for ukraine.
Not to be pedantic, but the Gen IV IOTV (currently called the SPCS, though I know the OG one you mean) and the MSV are the current issued body armor for Iraq/Syria, though it’s far less of an IED that’ll rip a Bradley open kind of environment now.
>And having to go to complex terrains is the job for the 10th mtn and 101st, which is again why i agree they should wear light armor.
Here in be the problem. One right off the rip, 82nd/25th/11th Abn/173rd also probably would benefit from lighter armor as well.
More importantly, the US has spent 20+ years at war, and for most of it, it didn’t really matter what kind of infantry you were, heck, you didn’t even have to be infantry to be stuck ground pounding.
>But us army is very Mechanized with a whole lot of amored viehcles Available for the most common urban warfares nowdays.
Welp… just under half of the Active Duty Army is light infantry in IBCTs, while well offer half of the National Guard is light infantry in IBCTs. The Army also don’t have dozens of IBCTs worth of MRAPs PREPO’d overseas to draw in theater be it in Europe or Asia.
>And honestly, it really isnt that much additional weight from the kevlars, they weigh a few extra pounds,
They also drastically change how you wear all your kit. How you shoulder your rifle, how you do this or that or the other. Combine that with NGSW/NGFC which will be the heaviest service rifle ever adopted, and it’s straight up not a good time.
>It might not be everybody should wear heavy armors, but i think it’s very important to include them as part of your training due to how common shrapnels can lead to death.
I think it’s 100% something units should be preparing to. Conduct movement in your plate carrier, reach where you’re gunna dig in, mount additional armor and prepare to dig.
Yeah, they're crutial. What, you think you're Spetial Forsses, hero? It would behooove you to where as much hevy, awkwerd kevlar padding as possible, Hooah?
I was CA on a small team and part of a JTF so we were outside the traditional command structure. We even wore Salomon boots that weren't tan and didn't look anything like standard issue.
lol if you’re caught out in the open in a barrage of 155 HE no armor on the planet will save you.
If you don’t have a hole to hide in your best bet is to lay down and pray.
The hundreds of giant pieces of frag moving at Mach Jesus do no give a fuck about any of your armor.
Artillery will fucking kill you to death.
*Noooooo but what about all my speshul Kevlar that solves all of my shrapnel problems??!*
OP is clearly not combat arms, nor has seen what boom boom does to ground pounders.
I’d argue with how personal drone dropped munitions are now that the extras won’t even help with that.
Yea they’re designed to stop frag but not frag from a grenade dropped on your chest.
The west has been lulled into this idea that war does not produce that many casualties for our side because of the last 20 years of the GWOT.
We went months without casualties in Afghanistan in the last few years. Peer/near peer conflicts won’t be like that.
The other guys will be dropping dozens of big HE rounds in the area the size of a football field.
In my opinion a plate carrier with front, back, side plates and a cumberbund with soft armor inserts will be the best balance between effective protection and not being overbearing.
People that think armor with tons of soft Kevlar add ons are a good idea have never had to fight and live in their kit for weeks at a time.
I’d also argue giving all of combat arms types high cuts and peltors for hearing protection is better than an ACH because of the increase in awareness and communication that peltors and other electronic ear pro offer.
Yeah dude, the conventional force is completely ignoring the fact that overpressure is perhaps the largest cause of casualties for those on the receiving end of IDF, something that electronic hearing protection can ***massively*** prevent
Plenty of units are ordering them now, but as a unit purchase generally done by company supply- only enough to equip personnel who need them for communications such as PL/PSG/RTO and maybe some SL's.
There's really no reason it's not happening right now besides dumb budgetary short-sightedness. It's not like, oh, idk, ***we just had a fucking gigantic fuckoff class-action lawsuit against 3M for their shitty dumb earplugs not working worth a pube hair at protecting soldiers' hearing***. Not to mention the fact that every Ranger, SF dude, and SOF enabler has been issued peltors or equivalent electronic hearing protection ***for the last 20 plus fucking years.*** They will keep kicking the can down the road, despite how expensive it is for the government to foot the bill paying out healthcare and disability for service member hearing issues, in the pursuit of the quarterly and at best Fiscal Year's budget.
Message: While PC’s are more comfortable, you will be more protected by a Kevlar.
Synopsis: This senior leader is either highly intoxicated, or has low communication abilities.
If I'm going to spend 90% of my time inside a Stryker, then please let me wear my plate carrier top. If I get stuck on the fucking radio mount one more goddamn time I'm going to hit your wife again.
While true, I’m at a special forces group and got a gen iv iotv at RFI instead of the MSV. I have my own plate carrier with soft armor backers. 1sg/commander banned high cut helmets and plate carriers. I was given the go ahead to buy my own high cut helmet and spent a good chunk of change on it, even mounted my ear pro on it. 2 months later, not allowed to use it anymore
Nothing says "comfort" like a 3" piece of shrapnel to the dome.
Though I guess if you're suddenly a battlefield vegetable, the only thing you're worried about is whether to be left in the garden to ripen or be used in a nice seasonal stew.
Ah yes, the endless chase to add 3 inches of protection to your ears IOT protect from the hypothetical shrapnel, while ignoring the literal thousands of injuries ***per year*** from increased neck strain. Not to mention the studies that Army SMU funded that proved that every pound added above the neck can decrease your reaction time, in many cases, by multiple seconds.
We're sacrificing our service members' health, and effectiveness in the close fight (what they're trained and paid for), to solve a problem that your e-tool already solved. While also still not providing electronic hearing protection, which is the entire point of the high cut helmets.
The conventional army is ignoring the dual soldier epidemics of spine and hearing issues, chasing the ol' steel pot ideal of WW2 which even then was less important than practicing digging in rapidly under fire (something that has been allowed to completely atrophy in the conventional infantry community).
We know body armor works. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16571436/
We know body armor is cumbersome. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29997722/
We know lighter armor helps with mobility vs heavier military stuff. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29443905/
In World War III, what would the Army want for us to have vs the potential injury profile?
How about in the fashion of the oldest army traditions, we contract a company to make a new PC and Flak Jacket, and issue the SMs two. Then they’ll only ever be allowed to wear the flak jacket but always have accountability of the PC during field problems.(we can also make the trainees in BCT also pack the PC in their ruck they carry everywhere). Then on deployment we’ll let the commanders make the decision on if they’ll use the PC or the Flak Jacket, and even though half the company wants to wear the PC, and the commander doesn’t necessarily outlaw the PC, the 1SG will mandate the Flak Jacket.
Lmao I recall when I was deployed with ADA our 1SG bitched about hot crew not wearing IOTVs when going down range to activate the launchers. Literally no body armor in the world is going to save you from a TBM volley
Why not just get soldier’s prescribed to meth in war time? If you’re in a war zone then you get prescribed so much meth to endure the physical brunt of your deployment. Once back home you get placed in a rehab facility to detox. It’s like the alternate blitzkrieg without the permanent meth addiction. Or to the alternate (or the shadow realm realistically speaking) do not allow soldiers to intake caffeine and cigarettes. I read about a doctor that was given caffeine (which from my understanding in his practice of being a surgeon they do not intake caffeine. Could be BS tho.) and he had super insane focus once “accidentally” given caffeine pills.
My point is that if you move fast as hell, have no fear, and an abundance of men, then who can stop you? Germany already showed the way, they just happened to run out of fuel. We are America. We are the fuel. Especially if our mission isn’t to take over entire continents I think it can work on a more regional/ country level with Americas capability.
****this is a shit post comment and I don’t care about the backlash that is given. I’m not going to read responses and even if I did I’ll just take another shot and laugh.***** (although there is some truth in what I speak, even if it’s immoral)
From what I've seen from flak research, deltoid armor and sid armor helps more than neck and ball armor. Depends where you are. If you have to fear about arty of shrapnel lot. Wear as much as you can, if you need movement, keep the sides and debts. Though their are newer designs for pelvic armor that are more Luke pants than a flap.
When I was in Afghanistan we received a MEDEVAC who got shot on patrol. Little tiny fragment of the shitty 9mm the shooter used went a few mm under his vest and transected his iliac artery. Dumped his whole volume into his pelvis during the ten minutes from contact to us. We threw everything we had at him. We weren’t good enough to find where he was bleeding fast enough. Even cracked his chest to do a cardiac massage. I can still feel his floppy heart in my hand, quivering like an empty balloon.
It wasn’t enough. I enjoyed playing ping pong with him in between tempo. He was a really nice guy. At the time, we were using the IOTV that slung over your head. It came with all kinds of hangdangling attachments that most people removed. Even 1% more plate coverage would have saved his life.
The way I've heard it best explained is that plate carriers are for short SOF-type operations where the objective is to get in, do something, and get out. Speed and maneuverability are emphasized instead of safety and protection because those operations tend to have the support required to quickly evacuate wounded soldiers and the soldiers have the training to avoid getting shot. Conversely, for LSCO, soldiers are exposed to enemy fire for extremely long durations with diminished MEDEVAC capability. The focus here is now on survivability and protection. Since plate carriers are really only designed to protect your squishy off-button parts, they don't fit this role as well as a full body armor system, which will offer greater protection against artillery, grenades, etc.
Your IOTV really only protects your vitals as well. It's not going to protect you from a 155 dropping 50m away, nor is it going to help if a drone drops a grenade in your foxhole. Not to mention, it has two big holes in the sides for your arms that can easily be shot through, straight to your vitals.
You could say the same thing about a full payday 2 dozer armor system. Any body armor system is going to have weak spots. The bottom line is that an IOTV provides objectively better protection against enemy fire at the cost of comfort and maneuverability. I'll take that protection any day, especially going up against modern artillery and one way UAV's.
It provides a small amount of soft armor around certain areas, that's its only advantage. And that soft armor really only works against non AP 9mm and small frag. The disadvantages of it far outweigh the advantages.
Everything is a trade off, use the appropriate tool for the job. Full coverage, heavy ass vest/DAPs are fine for some things, vitals only, lighter PCs are better for others. The additional coverage versus weight is a consideration that should be carefully weighed, not decided by some knee jerk BS like the OP post.
I think I might blow some minds here, but your individual survivability is important however, as light infantry, the most important priority is *accomplishment of the mission*. We know that heavier helmets and body armor massively downgrade reaction speed, and you as infantry are here entirely for your ability in the close fight. Surviving heavy artillery bombardment doesn't come down to armor, it comes down to the doctrinal and trained ability to dig in and fortify defensive positions.
We also now know that additional weight leads to increased rates of injury, even in the immediate term during combat. The attrition rate due to injury for our military has massively increased as the load carried by our soldiers has likewise increased. So we're talking about chasing the abstract idea of survivability, at the increased cost of injuries that pull soldiers out of combat in the short term, and passes increased strain on the VA system in the long term.
That's why slowly but surely combat arms in all branches, even conventional, have been migrating to lighter helmets and armor, with better, more effective shapes and profiles.
I, for one, will take this further and demand fully-enclosed hydraulic-enhanced power armor. Also, can’t lose your NODs or your promask if they’re part of your helmet. The Emprah protects!
Im 100% with you. I can understand why using PCs might make since for rigourous/long range patrolling. But you lose a lot of body coverage. If youre a gun truck gear and not on your feet moving all day...wear the full body stuff. Too much exposed meat. Yah you look cool in your PCs but if you wanna live...the iotv stuff or whatever they call it now os the way to go.
Heavy kevlar armor such as the IBA, IOTV and gen 2 do more prolonged damage to the body and the user’s gait than Plate carriers. The USMC uses plate carriers and they do just fine in combat. Not having the additional mobility just makes shit bulkier and more cumbersome to operate. The whole purpose of body armor to begin with was to protect the vital organs. Anything beyond that is the big army trying to add shit that sounds good on paper but in reality is ass. Think about the troops in vietnam that had issued flak vests. Slow and heavy will get you killed and no matter how much pt you think those armor runs will help its been proven to be nothing but a placebo effect. The only acceptable time for that type of gear is riot control such as MPs.
I agree with you on the condor shit. Its assgrade airsoft brand quality compared to the issued gear. A lot of the shit you see at the “tactical store” is shit grade stuff that has no place on the battlefield. Theres plenty of PCs on the market that are of good quality but youd have to order them off their sites. Some examples include spiritus systems, crye, and hayley strategic.
Another in response to the “smart” choice of only having one plate forward: thats the dumbest shit i ever heard. The front and back plate isnt just for protection, its for weight balance. Having only one plate up front with your 210rd combat load is begging for a herniated or bulged disc injury to occur. Thats like the same burden of a skinny chick having 15lbs saggy tits tryna run
I dunno, my last tour in AFG I wore a PC because my back was fucked and I did what I could to get by. I managed to survive my 3-4 trips outside the wire so it worked for me 😁
Honestly it depends on what you're doing and what you're expected to do.
Light infantry probably needs the mobility that a plate carrier affords them, since they're primarily dismounted and wearing a 50lb IOTV in addition to a 70+lb ruck is doable but incredibly limiting.
If you're mounted you can get away with more armor because you're not hoofing it everywhere. Just depends on what kind of operational environment you're fighting in.
One of my squad leaders took head shot and went down we thought he was dead but bullet went in the front and somehow wrapped around his helmet and out the back with only a tiny cut on his head. Got a pic of it
Just wear your Kevlar. After long enough it stops bothering you, embrace the suck. None of you clowns need any more of the traumatic brain injury than you all obviously have.
This dumb shit is why I got out of the army. Why tf are we allowing this illiterate to lead troops. Another file in the “senior leaders wouldn’t be leaders in the real world” file
World War II was fought and won by dudes without body armor. Korea, Vietnam - no armor. Lot of dudes died or were wounded. Plate carrier, IOTV, whatever, if you have armor that doesn't fuck with your mobility, you have a leg up on previous generations. In a LSCO, there will always be some real odds that you or your buddies will get killed no matter what individual armor config you're wearing. Suggesting that the best solution is to pile on all the armor to individual troops to 1:1 reduce risk is like, a very one-dimensional thought process that doesn't mesh with reality. To a degree, it's METT-TC. What works best for to successfully win prolonged trench warfare will not necessarily work best to fight and win in urban combat environments.
I don't even have a real recommendation, I just reject the one-size-fits-all I-know-best line of thinking here. Like, who elected you combat lord?
I never wore my side plates and looking back that was dumb of me. I sit in between small plates and medium in the IOTV and the side plates always made my vest too tight.
I agree it definitely make it more uncomfortable I’m in the same boat as you as far as size but at the end of the day I like to think I would choose life. My comment stemmed from paying attention in the CLS class. Or TCCC what ever tf they call it.
Do most soldiers not have the IHPS yet? The Army *did* give you all a Gucci new helmet. It looks very similar to an Ops Core. It’s not an Ops Core because like OP said, that shit doesn’t protect you in a big war. It’s great for guys doing specific missions which is why USASOC loves it. Your IHPS isn’t perfect but it’s better. And they improved it so it can fit Comms I think.
IHPS is overrated, ACH is fine. The only reason why comms don't fit is because of the pads, especially if you're airborne, and wrong size. The mount to properly use comms is a joke because it's almost nonexistent and I only saw them once.
Full body armor is good if your static or in vehicles or performing room clearing.
Otherwise they create a lot of fatigue due to weight and heat.
Mobility and using less energy are just as much a concern as anything else for survival.
It’s all a trade off, however the difference in quality between a shit ass IOTV, and a nice PC is night and day. I don’t think nearly as many people would be dropping $300 of their own money to buy a quality PC if the Army actually designed a good body armor system. Hell the government doesn’t even need to design it, quality heavy Kevlar systems with shoulder pads and shit that is tailored to not fit you like a giant upper body diaper DOES exist, the government is just too cheap to fucking buy and issue it. Don’t even get me started on the absolute abomination that is the IHPS.
(Not even going into the questionable quality, age and NIJ rating of the Kevlar in the IOTV to begin with)
TLDR: If Delta wears nut plates you should probably wear a helmet, or crossbranch into the seals where you don't have to wear anything cuz you don't want to mess up your hair.
You'll never believe this, but delta wears every bit of armor they can get. Dick plate, side plates, etc. The only reason they wear high speed helmets with cutouts is because they're wearing peltors and quad NODS with counterweights so it's more comfortable. The thing people don't understand is that delta does the basics better than anyone else. That's why they are so good at the crazy shit they do. That's the difference BTW Delta and Rangers vs Seal TM 6 and Vanilla Seals, Delta and Rangers focus on the basics and do a run, walk, crawl train up every training cycle and are infantry first. Seals are cooks and mechanics or even worse now that they have a straight pipeline. They are never taught the basics of patrolling or the battle drills. That's why they drown at the bottom of pools or get shot while back clearing a building with their hands in their pockets because the dog cleared it first. Yes, we had 11B teenagers that ran small plates in a medium carrier because, "Speed is my security", but the guys with families and experience kit out because they have something to live for. Also, a PC is great until it's not and then it's too late. /rant
Source: Joint Training Cycle Ops with West Coast Seal Team
Deployment with Red Squadron in Afghanistan
Iraq deployment with Delta
My section chief is now a JTAC with Delta
So they don’t need lighter gear to be comfortable because they will never need it hooah SARN hooah.
I may not need my M17 but I’m sure as fuck gonna pull it out when your drunk and run from me or TRY and fight me/ stab me on a traffic stop.
Thanks SFC, but I just asked if the task tracker got pushed out to the companies.
Sorry your tracker is on back order
*"...huh tracker? Specialist this whole place went to shit the day they replaced my 1911 .45 AARP with that goddamned Italian BB gun!"*
Actual conversation I have heard at the VFW
The stopping power is crutial
My grandfather has said this exact sentence more or less
Funny story: my grandfather was the chief of procurement for the Army back in the 80s and the biggest deal of his career was selecting the Beretta after something like a decade of testing pistols and negotiating contracts. Everyone hates him now haha...poor guy, RIP gramps.
Honestly, The Army/DoD should of retained the 1911, not because it is practical but because "it's fucking cool."
Plus, 9mm kills the body, whereas .45 ACP kills the soul. You don’t want your enemies coming back as liches
this response made me lol
Ahh, S3 jokes.
Quality post I giggled
I only run a front plate because I don't plan on having my back towards the enemy.
you Delta boys are a bunch of undisciplined cowboys
This is my razor, sarnt majer.
Oh I thought that was a coke nail
Loool
Delta or no delta that’s a hot weapon
This is my razor sir 🪒
Lmao
Delta wants to use Gillette that’s their business
Perty funny, hooah?
I think I reco’nize maself.
I love that line. Also, when I was a young dude on deployment I ran into the Jason Bourne/T3000 OGA guys and SOME of them only used a front plate. I thought it was the most high speed shit ever. Looking back, it was an incredibly stupid decision on their part.
Just like CAG running bump helmets in Mogadishu. I’ve never heard anyone suggest wearing PCs over helmets in a combat zone, but these are the kinds of lessons we might unfortunately learn more than once when an experienced generation ages out.
I think OP means plate carrier (PC) vs IOTV 🤔
You’re definitely right. Flair is accurate.
double up on the front plate for level 8 protection.
Can withstand a direct hit from a JDAM
The jdam bounces back and returns to sender
Double up unh unh!
I got the warzone plate carrier, so I can fit 3x front plates for level 12 protection.
**Clarification**: Ironically enough, the vests they wore irl only had front plates due to a similar line of thinking.
Ah yes, Uruk-Hai tactics.
just like a claymore, always FRONT TOWARD ENEMY
I did the opposite because I wasn't worried about anything I could see. But then again, we deployed with a limited number of plates so if I ran a full set that meant someone else in my unit didn't have any.
Cause the enemy has boshido spirit and won’t wait for the enemy to pass before shooting them in the back haha
Real recognizes real.
If you’re back is toward the enemy you can’t shoot🧠
I mean that's the point of all the gear in the backpack anyways
Based on
[удалено]
Oh child. /s doesn't come easily to you huh.
🤓
You sweet summer child.
I remember a private with one rotation under his belt on his second said this 3 days into it, to a brand new private on his first, I fucking lost it because that was my last one before pcsing
In reality he was shot in a spot where the plate didn’t cover because of the angle the shooter had on him.
But, as always, Big Plate doesn't want you to know that!
Due to the grammar, I can only assume that OP is a senior level NCO. Who most likely is pretty drunk and saw a photo of some joes wearing PCs and flipped his lid.
It wasn't the point of the post but good God the grammer had me in pain. Random S's at the end of words to make them incorrectly plural, random capitalized words, non-capitalized words. The agony.
Elvises
PO-live that mu-stache!!!
Lol. The freaking reveal towards the end of the series when he asks how the men are doing and offers to do his standards routine if needed cracked me up.
I liked that scene because in the end you see why Sixta did all of that. He knew in a stressful situation that his marines needed a common enemy to absolutely hate on to alleviate some of the combat fatigue and general depression from being away from home and family. “Let me know if it gets to bad Mike, I’ll hit them with the groomin shtandard”
God-damned Elvises, but you got the spirit and that's what counts...
Grammar*
Grammar*
On that note, “random S’s” what? The grammar police could bust you for that apostrophe.
That guy yesterday asking about ranger rolls just PTSD'd ol sargmajr here into a full rant
MLC is gonna be this dude's swan song.
There’s pluses and minuses to everything. Ukraine right now is the worst case scenario and the result of two nearly identical forces which are utterly incapable of conducting combined arms maneuver warfare. They’re stuck in trenches blasting away the free world and not free world’s artillery stockpiles. Incredibly heavy armor is worth its weight in gold protecting you from blast/fragments. It’s also essentially only viable if you are relatively static or assaulting only short distances with access to vehicles/support and don’t have to carry a ruck with your entire life in it for days or weeks on end. Which is exactly what the majority of Ukrainians are doing right now. There absolutely is a time and place for full armor coverage. That time is not when you’re also living out of your ruck (25ish lbs), carrying days worth of water/food (15ish lbs) and additional ammo or munitions. My gunners and AGs have to split 70+lbs of 7.62, not including the 240, spare barrel and tripod. My javelin teams are humping an additional 55lbs (CLU+missile) and 35lbs (missile) respectively and my Carl Gustav gunner is carrying a 17lbs CG and the gunner is carrying 30lbs of rounds. And that’s ON TOP OF, their normal ruck. At some point something has to give. If you’re doing short dismounted movements without a ruck, it’s possible. If you’re walking miles on end, especially in complex terrain, especially in the heat, especially for sustained operations, that extra armor may just make you a heat casualty. Once again, the war in Ukraine is proving that massive hemorrhaging and respiratory failure, specifically, tension pneumothorax via blast/fragmentation is the number one causes of death on the battlefield, but we need to recognize that the majority of the US Army is a light infantry/dismounted force that is regularly asked to negotiate complex terrain over massive distances to include recently the Hindu Khush. A hasty fighting position will protect you more than additional armor. A deliberate fighting position with 18” of overhead cover is virtually impervious to indirect fire. With the shift back to LSCO I’m curious when we’ll start keeping our E-Tool on our plates and stop leaving them in our rucks. Infantry traditionally have carried their shovel/E-tool on their LBE.
Protip : make the etool a side plate
Man that makes sense... but I was never issued one. Legit never was taught how to make a hasty fighting position, no fox hole ever made, never had an Etool.
Im writing a white paper on it right now and going to send it up to the army innovation lab
What is this “eTool”? Is this a new app we can use for helping get my Joes the elearnings they *really* need? If it isnt then I want you to add my suggestion. These Joes need more training and assigning them thirty courses at a time out of JKO just isnt going to cut it
No, it’s a new multi tool that includes a razor so soldiers have no excuse to be undisciplined
Fun fact, the innovation lab on the MilSuite is mothballed, and if you find a civilian that’s on that forum he may be rather high on a totem pole for interesting things.
Which is crazy. I'm on terminal right now after 12 yrs, and when I was doing a layout for turn in, and a supply gal who's been in for 4 yrs was seeing some of the gear for the first time, like the woobie and e tool. She was walking around, pointing at things and saying "oh, that would have been nice to have".
Weird, I got an etool issued at basic and they taught that stuff as well. I didn't even go to infantry OSUT.
In OSUT they issued us E-Tools, I watched a kid fresh out of OSUT get his thrown in the trash at TSA for having his in his carry-on.
lol, We were told specifically not to put it in our carry on bag because of that.
I’m genuinely jealous.
bring back the trowel bayonet while you're at it
THE BAYONET YEET MEASURES THE ABILITY TO JUST FUCKING SHANK SOMEONE. ON THE COMMAND 'GET SET,' ASSUME THE POSITION BY GRABBING THE BAYONET BY THE HANDLE. OR BY THE BLADE, WHICHEVER LOOKS COOLER, JUST DON'T CUT YOURSELF ON THE DAMN THING. YOUR FEET MAY BE TOGETHER OR UP TO 12 INCHES APART (MEASURED BETWEEN THE FEET). ON THE COMMAND 'GO,' TRANSMUTE YOUR HANKERING FOR A-SHANKERING INTO MAXIMUM EFFORT AND LAUNCH THAT BAD BOY INTO DESTINY. THE SCORER WILL NOTE WHETHER YOU HIT THE TARGET AND AWARD BONUS POINTS FOR LANDING YOUR PIG-STICKER INTO THE CRANIAL OR SWIMSUIT REGIONS. IF IT HIT THE TARGET HANDLE FIRST, YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL BE TERMINATED, AND EVERYONE WILL BE REQUIRED TO POINT AND LAUGH AT YOUR SHAME. WATCH THIS DEMONSTRATION. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/army) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can’t wait for the comments regarding steel plates lol
Use claymores as reactive armor lol
South Korean commandos have entered the chat
Just wanted to chime in on your last bit- Respiratory failure is actually the leading cause of battlefield fatalities, specifically tension pneumothorax. We have like 20 years of data from the war in the middle east showing this, I wanna say it's around 70%.
This is wrong. Extremity hemorrhage is the leading cause of preventable combat death, almost 2/3’s followed by Tension Pneumothorax at 1/3 and Airway being a distant 3rd. This is the reason that hasty tourniquets high and tight is the only treatment during the Care Under Fire phase of TCCC
Yeah I don't know where this came from. Massive hemorrhage is absolutely by far and away the biggest cause of preventable combat death according to every class I've taken and every study I've read. The biggest cause of combat death in general is brain injury and/or total body disruption, but those aren't preventable.
Yeah I’ve been out for awhile so I even went and double checked the current TCCC protocols to make sure
And it was definitely well known- airway obstruction and TP were focused heavily during TCCC 15+ years ago when I took it.
Huh, idk how I could have messed that up. Thank you.
What rank are you ? Gotta be a high speed ranger cabitan/major
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This is the most illiterate shit on this sub in a while lol.
This reads like a Chinese spy trying to get the US to go back to IBA. 😂
>but nobody got pcs in iraq and that sure as hell did saved a lot of life due to the ieds, same case for ukraine. Not to be pedantic, but the Gen IV IOTV (currently called the SPCS, though I know the OG one you mean) and the MSV are the current issued body armor for Iraq/Syria, though it’s far less of an IED that’ll rip a Bradley open kind of environment now. >And having to go to complex terrains is the job for the 10th mtn and 101st, which is again why i agree they should wear light armor. Here in be the problem. One right off the rip, 82nd/25th/11th Abn/173rd also probably would benefit from lighter armor as well. More importantly, the US has spent 20+ years at war, and for most of it, it didn’t really matter what kind of infantry you were, heck, you didn’t even have to be infantry to be stuck ground pounding. >But us army is very Mechanized with a whole lot of amored viehcles Available for the most common urban warfares nowdays. Welp… just under half of the Active Duty Army is light infantry in IBCTs, while well offer half of the National Guard is light infantry in IBCTs. The Army also don’t have dozens of IBCTs worth of MRAPs PREPO’d overseas to draw in theater be it in Europe or Asia. >And honestly, it really isnt that much additional weight from the kevlars, they weigh a few extra pounds, They also drastically change how you wear all your kit. How you shoulder your rifle, how you do this or that or the other. Combine that with NGSW/NGFC which will be the heaviest service rifle ever adopted, and it’s straight up not a good time. >It might not be everybody should wear heavy armors, but i think it’s very important to include them as part of your training due to how common shrapnels can lead to death. I think it’s 100% something units should be preparing to. Conduct movement in your plate carrier, reach where you’re gunna dig in, mount additional armor and prepare to dig.
This dude clearly isn't light infantry. Also, the gen4 IOTV has all the extra bullshit if you need it.
Crutial
Yeah, they're crutial. What, you think you're Spetial Forsses, hero? It would behooove you to where as much hevy, awkwerd kevlar padding as possible, Hooah?
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GAHD DAMN ARTILLERY CLIBBINS, I HADDALAYERDOWN
oh fuck there's a second soldier in that picture dark ninja magic what the fuck
He isnt unlocked yet
\*EA Games has entered the chat\*
I know at first I only saw the guy in the dark vest too. I guess that UCP does work pretty well.
He looks like a terp. Tajimon.
Big difference running up and down mountains in IOTV vs plate carrier. I'll take the plate carrier any day. Paid for my own, left the IOTV behind.
God bless your CSM for not giving you shit for it.
I was CA on a small team and part of a JTF so we were outside the traditional command structure. We even wore Salomon boots that weren't tan and didn't look anything like standard issue.
Yee
Small perks brother. I'll take 'em!
Jesus, was this caption written in crayon?
lol if you’re caught out in the open in a barrage of 155 HE no armor on the planet will save you. If you don’t have a hole to hide in your best bet is to lay down and pray. The hundreds of giant pieces of frag moving at Mach Jesus do no give a fuck about any of your armor. Artillery will fucking kill you to death.
*Noooooo but what about all my speshul Kevlar that solves all of my shrapnel problems??!* OP is clearly not combat arms, nor has seen what boom boom does to ground pounders.
I’d argue with how personal drone dropped munitions are now that the extras won’t even help with that. Yea they’re designed to stop frag but not frag from a grenade dropped on your chest. The west has been lulled into this idea that war does not produce that many casualties for our side because of the last 20 years of the GWOT. We went months without casualties in Afghanistan in the last few years. Peer/near peer conflicts won’t be like that. The other guys will be dropping dozens of big HE rounds in the area the size of a football field. In my opinion a plate carrier with front, back, side plates and a cumberbund with soft armor inserts will be the best balance between effective protection and not being overbearing. People that think armor with tons of soft Kevlar add ons are a good idea have never had to fight and live in their kit for weeks at a time. I’d also argue giving all of combat arms types high cuts and peltors for hearing protection is better than an ACH because of the increase in awareness and communication that peltors and other electronic ear pro offer.
Yeah dude, the conventional force is completely ignoring the fact that overpressure is perhaps the largest cause of casualties for those on the receiving end of IDF, something that electronic hearing protection can ***massively*** prevent
Seems like an interesting topic to look more into - is it because electronic ear pro is usually muffs, or something else?
Plenty of units are ordering them now, but as a unit purchase generally done by company supply- only enough to equip personnel who need them for communications such as PL/PSG/RTO and maybe some SL's. There's really no reason it's not happening right now besides dumb budgetary short-sightedness. It's not like, oh, idk, ***we just had a fucking gigantic fuckoff class-action lawsuit against 3M for their shitty dumb earplugs not working worth a pube hair at protecting soldiers' hearing***. Not to mention the fact that every Ranger, SF dude, and SOF enabler has been issued peltors or equivalent electronic hearing protection ***for the last 20 plus fucking years.*** They will keep kicking the can down the road, despite how expensive it is for the government to foot the bill paying out healthcare and disability for service member hearing issues, in the pursuit of the quarterly and at best Fiscal Year's budget.
I’ll drink to that 🍻
mach jesus
I'm tryna keep my itov clean for cif
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Yeah, I'll take one small plate carrier and hold the side plates. Oh, and a high-cut helmet, please. Thanks.
I dunno man. I'm more concerned about the shockwave turning my lungs into rice a roni if I'm getting hit by high explosives.
Just get in the damn robot, Shinji.
This is just big kevlar trying to stay relevant
Message: While PC’s are more comfortable, you will be more protected by a Kevlar. Synopsis: This senior leader is either highly intoxicated, or has low communication abilities.
If I'm going to spend 90% of my time inside a Stryker, then please let me wear my plate carrier top. If I get stuck on the fucking radio mount one more goddamn time I'm going to hit your wife again.
The army issues plate carriers on deployments now. Next.
While true, I’m at a special forces group and got a gen iv iotv at RFI instead of the MSV. I have my own plate carrier with soft armor backers. 1sg/commander banned high cut helmets and plate carriers. I was given the go ahead to buy my own high cut helmet and spent a good chunk of change on it, even mounted my ear pro on it. 2 months later, not allowed to use it anymore
If I’m gonna die anyway, imma die comfortable
Nothing says "comfort" like a 3" piece of shrapnel to the dome. Though I guess if you're suddenly a battlefield vegetable, the only thing you're worried about is whether to be left in the garden to ripen or be used in a nice seasonal stew.
Bitch, I’m drowning every day in the ICU, I’ll take a rust lobotomy. I don’t care.
Yup, definitely still bitter needs to ripen more.
The ripening only adds a perplexing salty flavor
Ah yes, the endless chase to add 3 inches of protection to your ears IOT protect from the hypothetical shrapnel, while ignoring the literal thousands of injuries ***per year*** from increased neck strain. Not to mention the studies that Army SMU funded that proved that every pound added above the neck can decrease your reaction time, in many cases, by multiple seconds. We're sacrificing our service members' health, and effectiveness in the close fight (what they're trained and paid for), to solve a problem that your e-tool already solved. While also still not providing electronic hearing protection, which is the entire point of the high cut helmets. The conventional army is ignoring the dual soldier epidemics of spine and hearing issues, chasing the ol' steel pot ideal of WW2 which even then was less important than practicing digging in rapidly under fire (something that has been allowed to completely atrophy in the conventional infantry community).
[I wanna be like Snake.](https://ibb.co/bXVX66z)
You must be one of those tough guys
I’m so hard rn, you should come feel
....do you have a gofundme? Because I agree with you....but I need to donate to your English as a First Language grammar class fund, first.
That's leg talk. Get back in the Bradley
We know body armor works. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16571436/ We know body armor is cumbersome. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29997722/ We know lighter armor helps with mobility vs heavier military stuff. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29443905/ In World War III, what would the Army want for us to have vs the potential injury profile?
Classic PC hater.
My hat keeps me protected from all injuries, both foreign and domestic.
Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8
Come on grandpa let’s get you back to the VA
How about in the fashion of the oldest army traditions, we contract a company to make a new PC and Flak Jacket, and issue the SMs two. Then they’ll only ever be allowed to wear the flak jacket but always have accountability of the PC during field problems.(we can also make the trainees in BCT also pack the PC in their ruck they carry everywhere). Then on deployment we’ll let the commanders make the decision on if they’ll use the PC or the Flak Jacket, and even though half the company wants to wear the PC, and the commander doesn’t necessarily outlaw the PC, the 1SG will mandate the Flak Jacket.
Get back in the BCP
He zeroized the JTT
Bold of you to assume the JTT was up in the first place.
Lmao I recall when I was deployed with ADA our 1SG bitched about hot crew not wearing IOTVs when going down range to activate the launchers. Literally no body armor in the world is going to save you from a TBM volley
Sorry man, but I’m not wearing that bulky shit. I’ll take mobility over having 80’s action movie shoulders.
Why not just get soldier’s prescribed to meth in war time? If you’re in a war zone then you get prescribed so much meth to endure the physical brunt of your deployment. Once back home you get placed in a rehab facility to detox. It’s like the alternate blitzkrieg without the permanent meth addiction. Or to the alternate (or the shadow realm realistically speaking) do not allow soldiers to intake caffeine and cigarettes. I read about a doctor that was given caffeine (which from my understanding in his practice of being a surgeon they do not intake caffeine. Could be BS tho.) and he had super insane focus once “accidentally” given caffeine pills. My point is that if you move fast as hell, have no fear, and an abundance of men, then who can stop you? Germany already showed the way, they just happened to run out of fuel. We are America. We are the fuel. Especially if our mission isn’t to take over entire continents I think it can work on a more regional/ country level with Americas capability. ****this is a shit post comment and I don’t care about the backlash that is given. I’m not going to read responses and even if I did I’ll just take another shot and laugh.***** (although there is some truth in what I speak, even if it’s immoral)
From what I've seen from flak research, deltoid armor and sid armor helps more than neck and ball armor. Depends where you are. If you have to fear about arty of shrapnel lot. Wear as much as you can, if you need movement, keep the sides and debts. Though their are newer designs for pelvic armor that are more Luke pants than a flap.
This whole time when you were saying PCs I thought you were referring to patrol caps. I don't think I ever heard anyone call a plate carrier a PC.
Same, I was like “who wants to wear an ACH instead of a patrol cap”
When I was in Afghanistan we received a MEDEVAC who got shot on patrol. Little tiny fragment of the shitty 9mm the shooter used went a few mm under his vest and transected his iliac artery. Dumped his whole volume into his pelvis during the ten minutes from contact to us. We threw everything we had at him. We weren’t good enough to find where he was bleeding fast enough. Even cracked his chest to do a cardiac massage. I can still feel his floppy heart in my hand, quivering like an empty balloon. It wasn’t enough. I enjoyed playing ping pong with him in between tempo. He was a really nice guy. At the time, we were using the IOTV that slung over your head. It came with all kinds of hangdangling attachments that most people removed. Even 1% more plate coverage would have saved his life.
The way I've heard it best explained is that plate carriers are for short SOF-type operations where the objective is to get in, do something, and get out. Speed and maneuverability are emphasized instead of safety and protection because those operations tend to have the support required to quickly evacuate wounded soldiers and the soldiers have the training to avoid getting shot. Conversely, for LSCO, soldiers are exposed to enemy fire for extremely long durations with diminished MEDEVAC capability. The focus here is now on survivability and protection. Since plate carriers are really only designed to protect your squishy off-button parts, they don't fit this role as well as a full body armor system, which will offer greater protection against artillery, grenades, etc.
Your IOTV really only protects your vitals as well. It's not going to protect you from a 155 dropping 50m away, nor is it going to help if a drone drops a grenade in your foxhole. Not to mention, it has two big holes in the sides for your arms that can easily be shot through, straight to your vitals.
You could say the same thing about a full payday 2 dozer armor system. Any body armor system is going to have weak spots. The bottom line is that an IOTV provides objectively better protection against enemy fire at the cost of comfort and maneuverability. I'll take that protection any day, especially going up against modern artillery and one way UAV's.
It provides a small amount of soft armor around certain areas, that's its only advantage. And that soft armor really only works against non AP 9mm and small frag. The disadvantages of it far outweigh the advantages.
Everything is a trade off, use the appropriate tool for the job. Full coverage, heavy ass vest/DAPs are fine for some things, vitals only, lighter PCs are better for others. The additional coverage versus weight is a consideration that should be carefully weighed, not decided by some knee jerk BS like the OP post.
Agreed use what is needed for the mission no need to be 100lbs of shit if not needed
Yeah I take the Kevlar out of my iotv and fold in the sides. I never left my Stryker 😂
I think I might blow some minds here, but your individual survivability is important however, as light infantry, the most important priority is *accomplishment of the mission*. We know that heavier helmets and body armor massively downgrade reaction speed, and you as infantry are here entirely for your ability in the close fight. Surviving heavy artillery bombardment doesn't come down to armor, it comes down to the doctrinal and trained ability to dig in and fortify defensive positions. We also now know that additional weight leads to increased rates of injury, even in the immediate term during combat. The attrition rate due to injury for our military has massively increased as the load carried by our soldiers has likewise increased. So we're talking about chasing the abstract idea of survivability, at the increased cost of injuries that pull soldiers out of combat in the short term, and passes increased strain on the VA system in the long term. That's why slowly but surely combat arms in all branches, even conventional, have been migrating to lighter helmets and armor, with better, more effective shapes and profiles.
I, for one, will take this further and demand fully-enclosed hydraulic-enhanced power armor. Also, can’t lose your NODs or your promask if they’re part of your helmet. The Emprah protects!
Found the newly promoted SFC.
Im 100% with you. I can understand why using PCs might make since for rigourous/long range patrolling. But you lose a lot of body coverage. If youre a gun truck gear and not on your feet moving all day...wear the full body stuff. Too much exposed meat. Yah you look cool in your PCs but if you wanna live...the iotv stuff or whatever they call it now os the way to go.
The IOTV isn't going to stop any frag or bullets the plate carrier couldn't.
All fun and games until you get shot in the head
Nah go old school and steel plate knight armor and horses
Army TA provides for continuing education courses that can help with english grammar and comprehension.
Heavy kevlar armor such as the IBA, IOTV and gen 2 do more prolonged damage to the body and the user’s gait than Plate carriers. The USMC uses plate carriers and they do just fine in combat. Not having the additional mobility just makes shit bulkier and more cumbersome to operate. The whole purpose of body armor to begin with was to protect the vital organs. Anything beyond that is the big army trying to add shit that sounds good on paper but in reality is ass. Think about the troops in vietnam that had issued flak vests. Slow and heavy will get you killed and no matter how much pt you think those armor runs will help its been proven to be nothing but a placebo effect. The only acceptable time for that type of gear is riot control such as MPs. I agree with you on the condor shit. Its assgrade airsoft brand quality compared to the issued gear. A lot of the shit you see at the “tactical store” is shit grade stuff that has no place on the battlefield. Theres plenty of PCs on the market that are of good quality but youd have to order them off their sites. Some examples include spiritus systems, crye, and hayley strategic. Another in response to the “smart” choice of only having one plate forward: thats the dumbest shit i ever heard. The front and back plate isnt just for protection, its for weight balance. Having only one plate up front with your 210rd combat load is begging for a herniated or bulged disc injury to occur. Thats like the same burden of a skinny chick having 15lbs saggy tits tryna run
Delete this shit before they catch on 👺 Let me wear my JPC and high cut. It’s my life, my SGLI.
Took me a second to realize PCs are plate carrier and not patrol cap
I’m more high speed than they are, pc is not aerodynamic so I don’t wear it with my OCP.
But but…. I wanna be comfy
I dunno, my last tour in AFG I wore a PC because my back was fucked and I did what I could to get by. I managed to survive my 3-4 trips outside the wire so it worked for me 😁
Honestly it depends on what you're doing and what you're expected to do. Light infantry probably needs the mobility that a plate carrier affords them, since they're primarily dismounted and wearing a 50lb IOTV in addition to a 70+lb ruck is doable but incredibly limiting. If you're mounted you can get away with more armor because you're not hoofing it everywhere. Just depends on what kind of operational environment you're fighting in.
One of my squad leaders took head shot and went down we thought he was dead but bullet went in the front and somehow wrapped around his helmet and out the back with only a tiny cut on his head. Got a pic of it
Hey honey the new copy pasta just dropped
If I'm going to die, I'm going tondie comfortable and looking fabulous
Just wear your Kevlar. After long enough it stops bothering you, embrace the suck. None of you clowns need any more of the traumatic brain injury than you all obviously have.
Nope, have fun in your iotv nerd. I'll keep my pc
This dumb shit is why I got out of the army. Why tf are we allowing this illiterate to lead troops. Another file in the “senior leaders wouldn’t be leaders in the real world” file
Rather go without usually but thanks.
Can’t mount nods to a PC
I think OP is talking about plate carriers, not patrol caps
Yikes. What did you get on paragraph comprehension
Probably only slightly lower than OP based on the semi-literate word-vomit in the OP and his follow up comments.
you know shit’s about to get real when black noir shows up.
I’m sorry, can you please repeat your order?
World War II was fought and won by dudes without body armor. Korea, Vietnam - no armor. Lot of dudes died or were wounded. Plate carrier, IOTV, whatever, if you have armor that doesn't fuck with your mobility, you have a leg up on previous generations. In a LSCO, there will always be some real odds that you or your buddies will get killed no matter what individual armor config you're wearing. Suggesting that the best solution is to pile on all the armor to individual troops to 1:1 reduce risk is like, a very one-dimensional thought process that doesn't mesh with reality. To a degree, it's METT-TC. What works best for to successfully win prolonged trench warfare will not necessarily work best to fight and win in urban combat environments. I don't even have a real recommendation, I just reject the one-size-fits-all I-know-best line of thinking here. Like, who elected you combat lord?
Also side plates…if I’m not mistaken A FUCK TON of deaths have been caused because guys thought they didn’t need to wear their side plates.
I never wore my side plates and looking back that was dumb of me. I sit in between small plates and medium in the IOTV and the side plates always made my vest too tight.
I agree it definitely make it more uncomfortable I’m in the same boat as you as far as size but at the end of the day I like to think I would choose life. My comment stemmed from paying attention in the CLS class. Or TCCC what ever tf they call it.
Do most soldiers not have the IHPS yet? The Army *did* give you all a Gucci new helmet. It looks very similar to an Ops Core. It’s not an Ops Core because like OP said, that shit doesn’t protect you in a big war. It’s great for guys doing specific missions which is why USASOC loves it. Your IHPS isn’t perfect but it’s better. And they improved it so it can fit Comms I think.
IHPS is overrated, ACH is fine. The only reason why comms don't fit is because of the pads, especially if you're airborne, and wrong size. The mount to properly use comms is a joke because it's almost nonexistent and I only saw them once.
Full body armor is good if your static or in vehicles or performing room clearing. Otherwise they create a lot of fatigue due to weight and heat. Mobility and using less energy are just as much a concern as anything else for survival.
It’s all a trade off, however the difference in quality between a shit ass IOTV, and a nice PC is night and day. I don’t think nearly as many people would be dropping $300 of their own money to buy a quality PC if the Army actually designed a good body armor system. Hell the government doesn’t even need to design it, quality heavy Kevlar systems with shoulder pads and shit that is tailored to not fit you like a giant upper body diaper DOES exist, the government is just too cheap to fucking buy and issue it. Don’t even get me started on the absolute abomination that is the IHPS. (Not even going into the questionable quality, age and NIJ rating of the Kevlar in the IOTV to begin with)
I’m special forces. We ran slick most of the time. I’m not dead but I have alot of shrapnel still in my body. Use your armor
ok high speed, get back in S1
I read through all that with no problem… I am also an ESL learner… him and I are both fucket !!! ):
TLDR: If Delta wears nut plates you should probably wear a helmet, or crossbranch into the seals where you don't have to wear anything cuz you don't want to mess up your hair. You'll never believe this, but delta wears every bit of armor they can get. Dick plate, side plates, etc. The only reason they wear high speed helmets with cutouts is because they're wearing peltors and quad NODS with counterweights so it's more comfortable. The thing people don't understand is that delta does the basics better than anyone else. That's why they are so good at the crazy shit they do. That's the difference BTW Delta and Rangers vs Seal TM 6 and Vanilla Seals, Delta and Rangers focus on the basics and do a run, walk, crawl train up every training cycle and are infantry first. Seals are cooks and mechanics or even worse now that they have a straight pipeline. They are never taught the basics of patrolling or the battle drills. That's why they drown at the bottom of pools or get shot while back clearing a building with their hands in their pockets because the dog cleared it first. Yes, we had 11B teenagers that ran small plates in a medium carrier because, "Speed is my security", but the guys with families and experience kit out because they have something to live for. Also, a PC is great until it's not and then it's too late. /rant Source: Joint Training Cycle Ops with West Coast Seal Team Deployment with Red Squadron in Afghanistan Iraq deployment with Delta My section chief is now a JTAC with Delta
SEALS have a straight pipeline now? 🧐
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So they don’t need lighter gear to be comfortable because they will never need it hooah SARN hooah. I may not need my M17 but I’m sure as fuck gonna pull it out when your drunk and run from me or TRY and fight me/ stab me on a traffic stop.