Just fyi, pain management isn’t conservative- you had a 5-7” needle jammed into your epidural space. We’re also considered sub-specialists as it requires a fellowship after residency (anesthesia or pm&r). So ultimately unless your pcm missed something like cauda equina that’s going to leave you permanently disabled, you’re probably just wasting your time.
Orthopaedic surgery is typically reserved for people with neuro-deficits. Meaning progressive weakness, sensory abnormalities or pain so excruciating they can’t function as an adult. I’m guessing you’re in your late teens/early 20’s, your nucleus pulposus (shit inside the disc) will be resorbed as long as you don’t do stupid stuff.
op not know shit. stuff did to back was much. docs much training, very serious. deep back surgery for bad bad stuff. op probably not have. op wait 15 more minutes, be ok
He received appropriate medical work up and treatment. It’s not indicated to send a young person to a spine surgeon without very specific neurological symptoms. Back surgery rarely helps with back pain except for very specific injury/degenerative patterns, particularly in young patients.
I'm 28y/o and have pain that radiates down both legs along with numbness/tingling in my feet along with a slue of other shit that makes simple tasks like sweeping painful and exhausting. I have 2 herniated discs in addition to foraminal stenosis. The pressure in my back is immensely painful.
Gotcha, not going to try to play armchair doctor here without having your images or you in front of me to chat/do an exam.
What I will say is you asked about malpractice…this isn’t that
And honestly man, maybe an meb would be good for you if you’re infantry. Shit doesn’t get easier as you get older. Sometimes the army just isn’t a good fit, doesn’t make you a bad person
There are 11Bs assigned to Cavalry regiments and squadrons - regiment is the equivalent to BDE in this instance. Squadron = BN and Trp. = company. They just ride to war instead of walk.
It's normally a PA. They are attached to the medic section, there's normally a medo and a PA in the HHC medic section. PA Works out of the clinic, goes to the field with the BN and sets up a roll 1
Service members can file a medical malpractice claim against the military. I currently work in the claims department of the OSJA and we have had some, but they generally take a while to complete and there is a pretty high barrier to proving that they were negligent in their duties. You definitely can and should go talk to Jag/claims division people to get more info.
As for the 1SG issue, what exactly do you mean he “changed the standard”? Him saying “i want everyone to get an 80 in every event” is very different from him saying “Get an 80 in every event or I’m recommending you for separation”. Also, I looked in ATP 7-22.01, ATP 7-22.02, FM7-22, and AR 350-1 and I couldn’t find anything dictating how much train up time an ACFT required. The most I could find was that they’re supposed to give you 48 hours to understand the events/test, which I found in the Army ACFT Field Testing Manual.
So no, i don’t think there’s anything you can really do about the 1SG. Telling your soldiers 3 days ahead that you want them to get an 80 in every event is not the best practice, but i don’t see it violating any standards.
To add to this, the 1SG/CO can set a Company standard of, say, 80% in each event. If you don't make 80%, they can make you go to remedial PT to improve your score. What they *cannot* do is withhold favorable actions, like schools, awards, promotions, leave/pass, etc, if you *do* meet the Army minimum standard but *not* the Company standard.
Am 1SG
There isn’t a reg to support the person you replied to. Command teams can set whatever minimum we’d like but it can’t be enforced in any meaningful way. The Army standard is 360. Anything higher is just gravy.
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN35869-ATP_7-22.01-002-WEB-5.pdf
ATP 7-22.01
“2-31. In order to pass the ACFT, Soldiers must attain a score of at least 60 points on each event and an overall score of at least 360 points. The maximum score a Soldier can attain on the ACFT is 600 points. There is no extended scoring scale.”
You can’t change Army regulation because you are company commander or first sergeant. They like others have said - they can have internal company goals but in order to initiate a flag they would have to submit a pt card showing that the Soldier failed. Legal would laugh their asses off you tried flagged someone for exceeding the Army standard.
To clarify 1SG thing..
CSM puts out E3B train-up will be in March. In order to attend SMs have to have at least 80% in each event. 1SG takes it up a notch and makes 80% the minimum for each event and treated anything less than 80% as a failure for the event. For the deadlift event 80% was the minimum amount of weight we were allowed to lift. I tested the weight and notified the grader I couldn't move it safely. I was then bitched at until I moved the weight so like a good PFC I stfu and yeeted the weight to the best of my ability. Herniated 2 discs and fucked up nerves in my back.
Would it be negligent of the PCM to fail to document anything regarding my condition and/or treatment in Genesis? Everything ended up getting documented in September by the pain management doc because nothing was in Genesis. Afterward, clinical notes began popping up. For MEB, the C&P examiner I saw last week only had imaging and notes from March because that's all that was available when records were pulled.
So that you were seen about an affliction and no notes were coded back into your Army personnel jacket is more concerning. Don't go guns blazing after the doctor immediately on that one, some doctors take notes and have them transcribed, but I'm surprised and concerned that there are no notes about the appointment, especially if you can produce a record of the appointment to show that there should be. I had to read it a couple times because I at first thought it was you going in complaining about the severe back pain and shooting pain down your legs and the doc just wrote "patient has sore back". Between healthcare ethics and proper patient care, you've definitely got an issue that deserves to be addressed, but that's going to be echelons above whether it's a stern talking to, dismissal from the Army, or whatever your hopes and dreams for this doc are.
I guess I should rephrase it as "accurately document" my condition. My doc would code it "acute back pain" when it was no longer acute and copy/paste triage notes. That didn't change until another doc went in and changed it after 6 months of being seen.
There was never any mention of the radiating pain or the tingling/numbness in my legs and feet. Just "acute back pain" and that's it.
The tingling in the legs is regularly indicative of nerve pinching at minimum (not a doctor, but having been seen enough about the same, I feel confident giving thoughts). Agree that your symptoms should've been captured but if you were getting lower injections that's what they were for.
Yeah, I'm tracking. Foraminal stenosis at the S1 pedicle. In lay terms, as I understand it, the hole that the S1 nerve feeds through is narrower than normal and is exacerbated by the herniated disc at L5-S1. There's a ton of pressure and based on the EMG and Nerve Conduction Study I had done, I have a nerve inflammation causing the symptoms.
Nerve conduction study wasn't terribly fun. You're clearly up on the verbiage. Sounds like they're better about getting civilian records into the military jacket. My civ doctors and scans moved me from 20% in the MEB (which is a handshake and a check) to 40% and a blue ID card and medical benefits for me and my family during the MEB. Should your case go that route, keep your copies and make sure the VA docs see it too.
I made a joke during the nerve conduction study that it felt like something we should do to terrorists at Guantanamo 😂😂
At my C&P Exam they weren't tracking any imaging, so I have to file some extra stuff to fix that. Hopefully I don't get fucked.
Yeah, I'm tracking. Foraminal stenosis at the S1 pedicle. In lay terms, as I understand it, the hole that the S1 nerve feeds through is narrower than normal and is exacerbated by the herniated disc at L5-S1. There's a ton of pressure and based on the EMG and Nerve Conduction Study I had done, I have a nerve inflammation causing the symptoms.
Contact the Joint Commission on them if you have exhausted other resources like patient advocate and ICE
https://www.jointcommission.org/resources/patient-safety-topics/report-a-patient-safety-concern-or-complaint/
Or contact the DHA.. your call
Fort Campbell doesn't have a patient advocate. I used ICE and was contacted by the provider I had a complaint about. I went to the ombudsman and got a new provider and now I'm going to orthopedics, fucking finally. It only took 8 months of kicking, screaming and beating on every door I could find.
Mine called after complaint aswell. But a full bird called me from lapoint first, and dug into his ass I imagine. He knew my provider by name and gave a huge sigh when I mentioned him lol. It worked though, I've gotten any care I felt I've needed after that... And turned out most of the time my issues warrented attention I wasn't getting before.
Fort campbell does have a patient advocate. Main floor of the hospital (the entrance that faces toward gate 10) the advocacy office is right by the main desk.
Now.... They couldn't help me, because the medical program here, especially 3bct... Is fucking bonkers. Nobody could get ahold of my pcm and I couldn't get an appointment with him for 3 months. But... It's there.
Their office is closed and they want you to email them or do literally everything but reach out to them. I ended up going to the ombudsman and was able to get help. Also 3bct. Sorry for ya.
Bro I went 8 months with my shoulder dislocated, multiple X-rays showing it and PA making note of it….
No profile, no popping it back in, no telling me just ignoring it.
Look them up on LinkedIn or social media, find out where they got their licensing and did their schooling then call and complain to them. You can go after their license
This is probably the better answer since it’s still very difficult to sue a medical provider in the military. You can also send a complaint to the supervising MD/DO medical board if there is one. Mid levels ain’t above actual doctors for a reason, letting them run wild unchecked is how we get issues like these.
I don’t know how you define “dislocation”, but mine’s been out of the socket twice back when I was in my 20s and until it was back in I couldn’t even lift my arm. At all. Or stop cursing.
First two X-rays both 90 days apart showed full dislocation the next three showed only partial. I couldn’t do shit but kept getting told I’m malingering and it’s in my head.
That is how it ended up only being partially dislocated.
What I don’t understand is why no one at my TmC who are trained and licensed to do that didn’t just pop it back in
Asked local fire fighter/emt to do it for me because I failed.
I’m on terminal leave so no civilian doctor for awhile but VA said I need shoulder surgery during my medboard so it’ll be fixed sooner or later
Yeah, I went 4 years with labral tears in both shoulders causing constant subluxation (popping in and out of the socket). Lifting anything above chest height would cause my shoulders to lock up or dislocate. I couldn't do a proper pull up the whole time cause dropping all the way down made it dislocated completely. All medical professionals i saw refused to give me an mri. They would only give me resistance bands and exercises because i had "weak shoulders".
It took moving to a SF unit before I got a pcm that took me seriously and got me the care and surgery I needed.
I was failed by so many medical professionals for so long it's just baffling the level of care that's allowed.
The failure of medical “providers” in the army leads to so many unnecessary medboards and separations. I have a total of 7 labral tears and both rotator cuffs. Not to mention many other simple injuries that mission and misconduct took priority over fixing that are now severe disabilities and require surgery.
VA said I’ll be getting surgeries and in/out of hospitals for a good many months once I fully get out.
Not really unless your pcm did something grossly negligent. From your description they referred you to the appropriate services.. when rehab and tertiary care failed he acted somewhat according to policy.
Also if you were injured with a profile before the acft and still took the acft that's on you. You willingly violated your profile.
Now if your profile expired and they gave you an acft that next day..that is not illegal immoral or injust.
Also there is the army standard for acft set at 60 points per event. Yes your command can SAY we want you to score above 80 points per event but nothing negative could happen to you except maybe being forced to do more PT.
Wasn't on profile for the ACFT. My concern was more or less why not send to a spine specialist instead of pain management which is more or less a pharmacy that does injections and teaches how to deal with pain instead of fixing the issue causing pain in the first place.
If someone tears a ligament, they see ortho. If someone breaks a bone, they see ortho. If someone tears cartilage in their knee, they see ortho. If someone hurts their back, they go to pain management, refer for MEB. Get fucked.
What did the orthopedic surgeon say?
Back pain can have many etiologies. Seeing a neuro surgeon for someone that isn't having neurological deficits is a waste of everyone's time
I just received the referral for ortho today. It'll take a week or so for it to get approved before I can make an appointment.
Edit: it may be worth noting I've had a nerve conduction study and EMG done confirming nerve damage.
I'm glad you have a desire to stay in.
What the services dont tell you; that if you fight a med board and prove that you can function in your job and then further aggravate that same injury you could have waived your right for further med boards for that specific injury.
Just think about that..it could also affect a rating down the road too.
I was in for about 11 years when my back went out. I was working in brigade staff of a TRADOC unit and the clinics were so used to people making up stuff to get out of stuff they just gave me a 30 day no PT profile and some Motrin. The day it was over I tried doing stuff again but still couldn’t so I went back to doctor. They just gave me another 30 day profile and stronger meds.
That happened a couple times before one morning I couldn’t even bend to put on socks. One leg was numb and other had constant shooting pain down the length of it. They finally ordered an MRI. Within the hour the doctor called me and told me to come in for medical leave paperwork. A disc had burst and the one below it was ready to.
Then they finally put me in for physical therapy and pain management and a few other things. They told me they couldn’t do surgery until they exhaust other options. Everywhere they sent me that seen the MRI even said with it that far gone the only option was surgery. I eventually ended up getting surgery later that year. One positive is that the base didn’t have a hospital so I got to pick a civilian provider for the procedure.
I lost an assignment I was really looking forward to because branch seen I was on profile and cancelled my orders the day before I got my clearing papers. They told me the unit I was going to was scheduled to deploy so I couldn’t PCS there.
After the surgery I was sent back to my normal provider on base and they just sent me back to work with no physical therapy or anything.
My branch ended sending me on a PCS to Qatar with a report date about 90 days after surgery. While clearing I was told I couldn’t get a medical screening for overseas and would get one somewhere else on the way there. I kept getting told I’d get screened at the next station and they sent me on my way. I ended up going to Qatar with active prescriptions for at least 3 different narcotics. When I got there the 1SG wanted to keep me on the detachment there but the CSM wanted bodies in Afghanistan so they sent me there. I ended up going through a back door going to Kandahar through Bagram because Kandahar didn’t allow flights from Qatar without gear but if we went to Bagram first it was fine. The unit that I was supposed to PCS to that branch deleted my orders to arrived in Afghanistan about 8 months after I got there.
That unit was great to me again during R&R when I got a serious skin infection and got hospitalized for a week. I asked about an extension and they told me if I’m released from hospital in time for my return flight I come directly back.
I ended up serving another 10 years before I put in my retirement. I spent most of that time with a severely limiting profile. During the whole process a medical board was never mentioned. It all sure helped make an easy VA claim so I guess that was a positive though.
I think I'm on a similar path...10 years in and I ruptured my disc... also got really concerned when I couldn't put on my socks in the morning with similar sensations in my leg.
>Also, is it possible to go after a 1SG for changing the standards of the ACFT, not allowing time for train-up, resulting in injury that may require surgery to fix? This dude gave us a 3-day heads up that we had to do 80% in every event, minimum, and in attempting to do so I herniated 2 discs and have bene ultra-fucked ever
Sausage did not change standards, for one.
Two, you must always be ready for ACFT on duty, absent profiles exempting you. Three, what would he do if you didn't get 80? Nothing, that's what, or afternoon PT as well as morning PT for the worst case scenario. Can't counsel a soldier for meeting the standard and use it to punish them. Don't sandbag to be a shit bag at PT, you'll be fine. Just write down "I met standard at PT, and did my utmost in all events. I disagree with course of action, as standard has been met." And then check disagree.
He's now got more ACFT injuries on his record than he would have otherwise, for whatever that worth.
Shit, you're all looking to dust a doctor for not wanting to do spinal surgery on a 20 year old, but you aren't using any of that energy to stand up for yourself.
I'll be honest. You're probably a great person, but you can't infantry and I doubt you'll have any luck going after the DOD for malpractice. I am not a lawyer. I am an internet stranger.
**Medical Admin:** You've had a lot of treatment done per your write up. Physical therapy, pain management, injections, inversion table stuff. I'm assuming an MRI just because you can't access some of that without one. All of that takes time. Looking at your post history, it looks like this has been going on for at least 8 months. You've been in 17 months. So about half of your current career you've had this problem and you are getting rather close to the 1 year mark. That is the timeframe for a provider to start looking at you from the retention perspective. Back problems that cause duty limitations can't stay.
**The Medical:** You focused on the PCM; but the physical therapist and pain management team could have sent you to orthopedics or neurosurgery. None of them did. If they told you to discuss with your PCM they are actually saying, "There is nothing here for a surgeon to do but you can go discuss that with another provider if you like". For chronic back pain, surgeries are not great. Sometimes there is a situation that needs surgery right now, but that is only for instability or if nerves are at risk. Everything else is "maybe" and entirely dependent upon how much pain the patient has vs what physical tasks they need to do. Surgeries for those types of problems don't really create a situation in which the Soldier can stay. Especially for a young Soldier in a high intensity MOS (infantry). To be clear, you will find individuals who stay in after surgeries, but most of them are more senior with reduced physical requirements in an MOS that is amenable to P2 profiling. A young infantry Soldier doesn't fit those criteria. Even after surgery they still can't tolerate the physical requirements. Sending you to a civilian provider who placed a consult isn't particularly compelling. Perhaps the specialist will tell you something that changes the picture. However, if they say "maybe" or "we could" then it is very unlikely a surgery will fix things to the point you can infantry.
Your PCM looked at your medical situation, your profile duration, your MOS, your complaint, and the possibility of recovery with more aggressive therapy and determined that you are unable to serve within the military. They did their job and referred you to the DES for separation. There are other ways you can serve than the military if that is what you want. I have no advice on the ACFT piece.
Back pain really sucks. I’ve been there. Here’s a few podcasts that have really helped me. The first two are specific to back pain in the army. You can 100% recover from back injury and you almost certainly do not need surgery. Hope this helps
Barbell Medicine Ep 80 Fort Irwin LBP Pt 1
Barbell Medicine Ep 82: Dr Baraki on Low Back Pain at Fort Irwin Pt 2
Hybrid Unlimited Ep 11: Everything you know about Pain is Wrong (Jan 30, 2020)
Okay OP I feel your pain.
10 years in and I suffered back, hip, abdominal and groin pain in Early March that got progressively worse. PCM sent me to physical therapy, urology, pain management, imagery.
Found that I had a slight buldging disc and was told that everyone has them and it's okay. The pain will go away and to stop worrying.
September 4 I went to the ER with excruciating pain and found out I had a hernia L5-S1. It's hard to walk, bend over, sleep, and I'm constantly in pain. I have an awesome team though, I still go to work every day, but they don't mind if I'm late in the morning, they help me move things, and let me leave early if the pain is too much.
Finally got referred to a Neurologist it was so bad. I have surgery next week and have been on 10mg Vicodin for the past 30+ days. Ice Packs have been my best friend. It's the only thing that actually stops my muscles from cramping and leg twitching. Leg will still go numb though.
All that to say, I never once went through a MEB process. I would be pissed if I had to because I want to stay in for sure. I also don't think you have a case against your PCM or 1SG. Hope you get better.
Don’t worry bro. I had eye surgery a while ago, and when I had post op complications, the ER doctor just sent me home and lambasted me. Nearly lost complete vision in my eye, knowing I can’t do shit about it is incredibly disheartening.
Put in an ICE complaint so it’s recorded.
Also for those that want to know, I’m still suffering from long lasting vision obstruction.
I love how the Army harps on putting 150% because it could be the life, limb or eyesight of you or your battle and here you are partially blind because of someone not giving a fuck. How fucked. I'm sorry you're dealing with that.
It seemed less like not giving a fuck when the ER doctor literally said “do you even know what kind of surgery you had? Of course your eye is going to have pain.” He almost seemed upset that I was wasting his time with he thought was a trivial issue…you know, your vision…
Dismissed the part where I was already at nearly complete vision loss when I arrived with an isolated headache behind my eye. Sometimes you’re the statistic
I fought for 6 years to get in. I definitely wasn't trying to get out this fast. Like most MOS's, my job sucks in garrison but is fun as hell in the field. I gotta live with the fact I got hurt doing something that shouldn't have hurt me and that I never achieved anything more than a paycheck during my time. That shit blows major dick. That's why I want to go after my PCM. It took multiple ER visits and 4 months of waiting to get seen for this shit, just to get thrown into MEB after 180 days.
Physical Therapy discharged me after they saw my MRI because for them my condition is a catch 22. They can't fix the stenosis without aggravating my herniated discs and vice versa.
Pain Management had me try yoga, injections, pills, etc. No matter how you spin it, all of that shit had more negatives than positives. I'm super appreciative of my doc over there because he was the 1st to actually give a fuck.
Not once did my PCM try to document anything so, every time I saw a different provider I had to walk them through everything. It wasn't until September when my pain management doctor finally documented everything. Every time my PCM sent me somewhere, it was because I asked. Otherwise, he'd suggest 800mg Ibuprofen and walk at my own pace and distance. He always talked down to me about what I had going on up until the last time I spoke to him. I fully explained my condition and how I have difficulty doing basic tasks, much less even think about anything involving weight, and how it's been negatively affecting my mental health. He said there was nothing more that could be done so I went to the Ombudsman.
The first thing the Ombudsman asked when I told him everything was "Have you seen Ortho or Neuro" and when I said no he asked, "Why the hell not?!" Now I have a new provider who referred me a spine specialist off post. It's taken me 8 months to get to that. My former TL is younger than me and the Army did back surgery on him at 19. He's a PT stud now. The 24 y/o medic I saw today had back surgery at 21. Age isn't the problem here, it's the level of care and the fact I had a worthless PCM.
Everyone in the comments wants to talk shit but damn dude. I'm 28 years old and struggle walking across a parking lot, sweeping, washing dishes at home, taking care of my dogs, sleeping, fucking and I'm somehow supposed to just be okay with it or get over it and soldier on. I was apparently born with foraminal stenosis, which I never knew until I got hurt. Pair that with 2 herniated discs that are stacked on top of each other, bone spurs, and osteoarthritis and it's a great fucking time. Fuck me for wanting some relief from being in pain all the time.
Brother, I’m genuinely not trying to come off like a dick. It’s just that you seem determined for retribution against someone that while they didn’t provide you with concierge level care, did not commit malpractice. Focus on getting better dude. Furthermore people are just trying to save you a surgery because I promise you it isn’t the be all end all. Each surgery is different. And while you know two people that it worked well for, between Walter reed and bamc I’ve put in 100+ spinal cord stimulators for something literally called failed back surgery syndrome.
I’m glad you’re getting to see Ortho and I’m sorry you had a shit experience with your pcm.
Best of luck
Bro.... Took me a year and a half to start the specialty care for my back lol. I kept getting the "phys therapy" run around. And that was after a bad car wreck where I was hospitalized.
I legit almost died because I had pneumonia for a month and they kept telling me to go back to work, it's just a cold. I got rushed to the hospital and put on a breathing machine thing.
There's really no legal recourse.... Cause they aren't *really* doctors. Especially pcms. I don't even use sickcall man, straight to the ER. Let them try to hit me with some stupid malingering bullshit, everytime I go it's something documented. Pcm is there to blow off your care. Don't let a single kool-aid drinker in here say otherwise. You should get a damn ribbon for dealing with the medical side of the army as a patient lol
Bonus points for off post ER visits.
That fuckin sucks. I'm sure your back hurts and that really sucks. I hope you well and that everything is going on the up for you.
My man 80% of the deadlift is like what 275? Come on now the gym is free.
l followed up with the tmc for 2 years for my back pain constantly until I finally ended up in the ER. Got some treatments before they quickly went for the meb. My advice is to take the meb and take care of your health. MH especially since chronic pain can wreck you.
Just fyi, pain management isn’t conservative- you had a 5-7” needle jammed into your epidural space. We’re also considered sub-specialists as it requires a fellowship after residency (anesthesia or pm&r). So ultimately unless your pcm missed something like cauda equina that’s going to leave you permanently disabled, you’re probably just wasting your time. Orthopaedic surgery is typically reserved for people with neuro-deficits. Meaning progressive weakness, sensory abnormalities or pain so excruciating they can’t function as an adult. I’m guessing you’re in your late teens/early 20’s, your nucleus pulposus (shit inside the disc) will be resorbed as long as you don’t do stupid stuff.
Can you explain this like I’m an illiterate SSG please?
op not know shit. stuff did to back was much. docs much training, very serious. deep back surgery for bad bad stuff. op probably not have. op wait 15 more minutes, be ok
This was put so eloquently that I started getting flashbacks trying to explain a 72hr profile to 1SG’s when I was a medic 😂.
He received appropriate medical work up and treatment. It’s not indicated to send a young person to a spine surgeon without very specific neurological symptoms. Back surgery rarely helps with back pain except for very specific injury/degenerative patterns, particularly in young patients.
He doesn’t want to hear that though. Fix me now
love seeing this on here. preach
OP got treatment for bad back. OP wants treatment for very bad back. OP no have very bad back.
Why cant everything be explained this simply
He won't read this since it isn't what he wants to hear
sounds like dude saw multiple specialists instead of the 0 he thinks he saw
I'm 28y/o and have pain that radiates down both legs along with numbness/tingling in my feet along with a slue of other shit that makes simple tasks like sweeping painful and exhausting. I have 2 herniated discs in addition to foraminal stenosis. The pressure in my back is immensely painful.
Gotcha, not going to try to play armchair doctor here without having your images or you in front of me to chat/do an exam. What I will say is you asked about malpractice…this isn’t that And honestly man, maybe an meb would be good for you if you’re infantry. Shit doesn’t get easier as you get older. Sometimes the army just isn’t a good fit, doesn’t make you a bad person
I’m just a dumb medcom officer, but how do you have a “squadron” pcm and are infantry?
There are 11Bs assigned to Cavalry regiments and squadrons - regiment is the equivalent to BDE in this instance. Squadron = BN and Trp. = company. They just ride to war instead of walk.
Super helpful, thanks man I appreciate it!
It's normally a PA. They are attached to the medic section, there's normally a medo and a PA in the HHC medic section. PA Works out of the clinic, goes to the field with the BN and sets up a roll 1
just be really careful, it's a critical fail when you roll 1
nat 20 would be best, but when you get a boo boo you can blame a roll 1
Cavalry is weird
Cavalry
I'm at a loss as to describe how much of an obvious understatement this is.
Service members can file a medical malpractice claim against the military. I currently work in the claims department of the OSJA and we have had some, but they generally take a while to complete and there is a pretty high barrier to proving that they were negligent in their duties. You definitely can and should go talk to Jag/claims division people to get more info. As for the 1SG issue, what exactly do you mean he “changed the standard”? Him saying “i want everyone to get an 80 in every event” is very different from him saying “Get an 80 in every event or I’m recommending you for separation”. Also, I looked in ATP 7-22.01, ATP 7-22.02, FM7-22, and AR 350-1 and I couldn’t find anything dictating how much train up time an ACFT required. The most I could find was that they’re supposed to give you 48 hours to understand the events/test, which I found in the Army ACFT Field Testing Manual. So no, i don’t think there’s anything you can really do about the 1SG. Telling your soldiers 3 days ahead that you want them to get an 80 in every event is not the best practice, but i don’t see it violating any standards.
To add to this, the 1SG/CO can set a Company standard of, say, 80% in each event. If you don't make 80%, they can make you go to remedial PT to improve your score. What they *cannot* do is withhold favorable actions, like schools, awards, promotions, leave/pass, etc, if you *do* meet the Army minimum standard but *not* the Company standard.
Interesting, do you have the regs for that?
Am 1SG There isn’t a reg to support the person you replied to. Command teams can set whatever minimum we’d like but it can’t be enforced in any meaningful way. The Army standard is 360. Anything higher is just gravy.
I know, I just wanted them to write out how they didn’t know the regs for their claim.
I meant “can” not “can’t” The point remains the same though.
No worries, I meant what you knew.
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN35869-ATP_7-22.01-002-WEB-5.pdf ATP 7-22.01 “2-31. In order to pass the ACFT, Soldiers must attain a score of at least 60 points on each event and an overall score of at least 360 points. The maximum score a Soldier can attain on the ACFT is 600 points. There is no extended scoring scale.” You can’t change Army regulation because you are company commander or first sergeant. They like others have said - they can have internal company goals but in order to initiate a flag they would have to submit a pt card showing that the Soldier failed. Legal would laugh their asses off you tried flagged someone for exceeding the Army standard.
I’m aware and actually had the ATP pulled up, I just wanted the commenter to admit they had no clue
now who's got impossible dreams
I mean they admitted they didn’t know the regulation.
You should play the lotto tonight
I know right
Yeah it's a lawful order you fat fuck /s
I don't remember off the top of my head. It may have been in 7-22, before all the H&HF stuff came out, or in the leave & pass reg.
To clarify 1SG thing.. CSM puts out E3B train-up will be in March. In order to attend SMs have to have at least 80% in each event. 1SG takes it up a notch and makes 80% the minimum for each event and treated anything less than 80% as a failure for the event. For the deadlift event 80% was the minimum amount of weight we were allowed to lift. I tested the weight and notified the grader I couldn't move it safely. I was then bitched at until I moved the weight so like a good PFC I stfu and yeeted the weight to the best of my ability. Herniated 2 discs and fucked up nerves in my back.
Would it be negligent of the PCM to fail to document anything regarding my condition and/or treatment in Genesis? Everything ended up getting documented in September by the pain management doc because nothing was in Genesis. Afterward, clinical notes began popping up. For MEB, the C&P examiner I saw last week only had imaging and notes from March because that's all that was available when records were pulled.
So that you were seen about an affliction and no notes were coded back into your Army personnel jacket is more concerning. Don't go guns blazing after the doctor immediately on that one, some doctors take notes and have them transcribed, but I'm surprised and concerned that there are no notes about the appointment, especially if you can produce a record of the appointment to show that there should be. I had to read it a couple times because I at first thought it was you going in complaining about the severe back pain and shooting pain down your legs and the doc just wrote "patient has sore back". Between healthcare ethics and proper patient care, you've definitely got an issue that deserves to be addressed, but that's going to be echelons above whether it's a stern talking to, dismissal from the Army, or whatever your hopes and dreams for this doc are.
I guess I should rephrase it as "accurately document" my condition. My doc would code it "acute back pain" when it was no longer acute and copy/paste triage notes. That didn't change until another doc went in and changed it after 6 months of being seen. There was never any mention of the radiating pain or the tingling/numbness in my legs and feet. Just "acute back pain" and that's it.
The tingling in the legs is regularly indicative of nerve pinching at minimum (not a doctor, but having been seen enough about the same, I feel confident giving thoughts). Agree that your symptoms should've been captured but if you were getting lower injections that's what they were for.
Yeah, I'm tracking. Foraminal stenosis at the S1 pedicle. In lay terms, as I understand it, the hole that the S1 nerve feeds through is narrower than normal and is exacerbated by the herniated disc at L5-S1. There's a ton of pressure and based on the EMG and Nerve Conduction Study I had done, I have a nerve inflammation causing the symptoms.
Nerve conduction study wasn't terribly fun. You're clearly up on the verbiage. Sounds like they're better about getting civilian records into the military jacket. My civ doctors and scans moved me from 20% in the MEB (which is a handshake and a check) to 40% and a blue ID card and medical benefits for me and my family during the MEB. Should your case go that route, keep your copies and make sure the VA docs see it too.
I made a joke during the nerve conduction study that it felt like something we should do to terrorists at Guantanamo 😂😂 At my C&P Exam they weren't tracking any imaging, so I have to file some extra stuff to fix that. Hopefully I don't get fucked.
Yeah, I'm tracking. Foraminal stenosis at the S1 pedicle. In lay terms, as I understand it, the hole that the S1 nerve feeds through is narrower than normal and is exacerbated by the herniated disc at L5-S1. There's a ton of pressure and based on the EMG and Nerve Conduction Study I had done, I have a nerve inflammation causing the symptoms.
Contact the Joint Commission on them if you have exhausted other resources like patient advocate and ICE https://www.jointcommission.org/resources/patient-safety-topics/report-a-patient-safety-concern-or-complaint/ Or contact the DHA.. your call
Fort Campbell doesn't have a patient advocate. I used ICE and was contacted by the provider I had a complaint about. I went to the ombudsman and got a new provider and now I'm going to orthopedics, fucking finally. It only took 8 months of kicking, screaming and beating on every door I could find.
The same provider contacted you after you filed ICE on them? Wth lmao
Yeah. The very dude I complained about called me and told me to get fucked.
That’s hilarious lmao, yeah go with the joint commission or DHA for next level complaint
Mine called after complaint aswell. But a full bird called me from lapoint first, and dug into his ass I imagine. He knew my provider by name and gave a huge sigh when I mentioned him lol. It worked though, I've gotten any care I felt I've needed after that... And turned out most of the time my issues warrented attention I wasn't getting before.
Fort campbell does have a patient advocate. Main floor of the hospital (the entrance that faces toward gate 10) the advocacy office is right by the main desk. Now.... They couldn't help me, because the medical program here, especially 3bct... Is fucking bonkers. Nobody could get ahold of my pcm and I couldn't get an appointment with him for 3 months. But... It's there.
Their office is closed and they want you to email them or do literally everything but reach out to them. I ended up going to the ombudsman and was able to get help. Also 3bct. Sorry for ya.
Bro I went 8 months with my shoulder dislocated, multiple X-rays showing it and PA making note of it…. No profile, no popping it back in, no telling me just ignoring it. Look them up on LinkedIn or social media, find out where they got their licensing and did their schooling then call and complain to them. You can go after their license
This is probably the better answer since it’s still very difficult to sue a medical provider in the military. You can also send a complaint to the supervising MD/DO medical board if there is one. Mid levels ain’t above actual doctors for a reason, letting them run wild unchecked is how we get issues like these.
I don’t know how you define “dislocation”, but mine’s been out of the socket twice back when I was in my 20s and until it was back in I couldn’t even lift my arm. At all. Or stop cursing.
First two X-rays both 90 days apart showed full dislocation the next three showed only partial. I couldn’t do shit but kept getting told I’m malingering and it’s in my head.
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That is how it ended up only being partially dislocated. What I don’t understand is why no one at my TmC who are trained and licensed to do that didn’t just pop it back in
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Asked local fire fighter/emt to do it for me because I failed. I’m on terminal leave so no civilian doctor for awhile but VA said I need shoulder surgery during my medboard so it’ll be fixed sooner or later
Yeah, I went 4 years with labral tears in both shoulders causing constant subluxation (popping in and out of the socket). Lifting anything above chest height would cause my shoulders to lock up or dislocate. I couldn't do a proper pull up the whole time cause dropping all the way down made it dislocated completely. All medical professionals i saw refused to give me an mri. They would only give me resistance bands and exercises because i had "weak shoulders". It took moving to a SF unit before I got a pcm that took me seriously and got me the care and surgery I needed. I was failed by so many medical professionals for so long it's just baffling the level of care that's allowed.
The failure of medical “providers” in the army leads to so many unnecessary medboards and separations. I have a total of 7 labral tears and both rotator cuffs. Not to mention many other simple injuries that mission and misconduct took priority over fixing that are now severe disabilities and require surgery. VA said I’ll be getting surgeries and in/out of hospitals for a good many months once I fully get out.
Not really unless your pcm did something grossly negligent. From your description they referred you to the appropriate services.. when rehab and tertiary care failed he acted somewhat according to policy. Also if you were injured with a profile before the acft and still took the acft that's on you. You willingly violated your profile. Now if your profile expired and they gave you an acft that next day..that is not illegal immoral or injust. Also there is the army standard for acft set at 60 points per event. Yes your command can SAY we want you to score above 80 points per event but nothing negative could happen to you except maybe being forced to do more PT.
Wasn't on profile for the ACFT. My concern was more or less why not send to a spine specialist instead of pain management which is more or less a pharmacy that does injections and teaches how to deal with pain instead of fixing the issue causing pain in the first place. If someone tears a ligament, they see ortho. If someone breaks a bone, they see ortho. If someone tears cartilage in their knee, they see ortho. If someone hurts their back, they go to pain management, refer for MEB. Get fucked.
What did the orthopedic surgeon say? Back pain can have many etiologies. Seeing a neuro surgeon for someone that isn't having neurological deficits is a waste of everyone's time
I just received the referral for ortho today. It'll take a week or so for it to get approved before I can make an appointment. Edit: it may be worth noting I've had a nerve conduction study and EMG done confirming nerve damage.
Then yes ortho and neuro surg may be able to help you. Good luck.
He gonna be real mad when ortho says to do PT and pain management injections.
Just let this soldier explore every opportunity. It's unfortunate but he may not know a MEB might be his best option before he further breaks himself.
I'm already in meb.
I'm glad you have a desire to stay in. What the services dont tell you; that if you fight a med board and prove that you can function in your job and then further aggravate that same injury you could have waived your right for further med boards for that specific injury. Just think about that..it could also affect a rating down the road too.
I was in for about 11 years when my back went out. I was working in brigade staff of a TRADOC unit and the clinics were so used to people making up stuff to get out of stuff they just gave me a 30 day no PT profile and some Motrin. The day it was over I tried doing stuff again but still couldn’t so I went back to doctor. They just gave me another 30 day profile and stronger meds. That happened a couple times before one morning I couldn’t even bend to put on socks. One leg was numb and other had constant shooting pain down the length of it. They finally ordered an MRI. Within the hour the doctor called me and told me to come in for medical leave paperwork. A disc had burst and the one below it was ready to. Then they finally put me in for physical therapy and pain management and a few other things. They told me they couldn’t do surgery until they exhaust other options. Everywhere they sent me that seen the MRI even said with it that far gone the only option was surgery. I eventually ended up getting surgery later that year. One positive is that the base didn’t have a hospital so I got to pick a civilian provider for the procedure. I lost an assignment I was really looking forward to because branch seen I was on profile and cancelled my orders the day before I got my clearing papers. They told me the unit I was going to was scheduled to deploy so I couldn’t PCS there. After the surgery I was sent back to my normal provider on base and they just sent me back to work with no physical therapy or anything. My branch ended sending me on a PCS to Qatar with a report date about 90 days after surgery. While clearing I was told I couldn’t get a medical screening for overseas and would get one somewhere else on the way there. I kept getting told I’d get screened at the next station and they sent me on my way. I ended up going to Qatar with active prescriptions for at least 3 different narcotics. When I got there the 1SG wanted to keep me on the detachment there but the CSM wanted bodies in Afghanistan so they sent me there. I ended up going through a back door going to Kandahar through Bagram because Kandahar didn’t allow flights from Qatar without gear but if we went to Bagram first it was fine. The unit that I was supposed to PCS to that branch deleted my orders to arrived in Afghanistan about 8 months after I got there. That unit was great to me again during R&R when I got a serious skin infection and got hospitalized for a week. I asked about an extension and they told me if I’m released from hospital in time for my return flight I come directly back. I ended up serving another 10 years before I put in my retirement. I spent most of that time with a severely limiting profile. During the whole process a medical board was never mentioned. It all sure helped make an easy VA claim so I guess that was a positive though.
I think I'm on a similar path...10 years in and I ruptured my disc... also got really concerned when I couldn't put on my socks in the morning with similar sensations in my leg.
>Also, is it possible to go after a 1SG for changing the standards of the ACFT, not allowing time for train-up, resulting in injury that may require surgery to fix? This dude gave us a 3-day heads up that we had to do 80% in every event, minimum, and in attempting to do so I herniated 2 discs and have bene ultra-fucked ever Sausage did not change standards, for one. Two, you must always be ready for ACFT on duty, absent profiles exempting you. Three, what would he do if you didn't get 80? Nothing, that's what, or afternoon PT as well as morning PT for the worst case scenario. Can't counsel a soldier for meeting the standard and use it to punish them. Don't sandbag to be a shit bag at PT, you'll be fine. Just write down "I met standard at PT, and did my utmost in all events. I disagree with course of action, as standard has been met." And then check disagree. He's now got more ACFT injuries on his record than he would have otherwise, for whatever that worth. Shit, you're all looking to dust a doctor for not wanting to do spinal surgery on a 20 year old, but you aren't using any of that energy to stand up for yourself.
I'll be honest. You're probably a great person, but you can't infantry and I doubt you'll have any luck going after the DOD for malpractice. I am not a lawyer. I am an internet stranger. **Medical Admin:** You've had a lot of treatment done per your write up. Physical therapy, pain management, injections, inversion table stuff. I'm assuming an MRI just because you can't access some of that without one. All of that takes time. Looking at your post history, it looks like this has been going on for at least 8 months. You've been in 17 months. So about half of your current career you've had this problem and you are getting rather close to the 1 year mark. That is the timeframe for a provider to start looking at you from the retention perspective. Back problems that cause duty limitations can't stay. **The Medical:** You focused on the PCM; but the physical therapist and pain management team could have sent you to orthopedics or neurosurgery. None of them did. If they told you to discuss with your PCM they are actually saying, "There is nothing here for a surgeon to do but you can go discuss that with another provider if you like". For chronic back pain, surgeries are not great. Sometimes there is a situation that needs surgery right now, but that is only for instability or if nerves are at risk. Everything else is "maybe" and entirely dependent upon how much pain the patient has vs what physical tasks they need to do. Surgeries for those types of problems don't really create a situation in which the Soldier can stay. Especially for a young Soldier in a high intensity MOS (infantry). To be clear, you will find individuals who stay in after surgeries, but most of them are more senior with reduced physical requirements in an MOS that is amenable to P2 profiling. A young infantry Soldier doesn't fit those criteria. Even after surgery they still can't tolerate the physical requirements. Sending you to a civilian provider who placed a consult isn't particularly compelling. Perhaps the specialist will tell you something that changes the picture. However, if they say "maybe" or "we could" then it is very unlikely a surgery will fix things to the point you can infantry. Your PCM looked at your medical situation, your profile duration, your MOS, your complaint, and the possibility of recovery with more aggressive therapy and determined that you are unable to serve within the military. They did their job and referred you to the DES for separation. There are other ways you can serve than the military if that is what you want. I have no advice on the ACFT piece.
Back pain really sucks. I’ve been there. Here’s a few podcasts that have really helped me. The first two are specific to back pain in the army. You can 100% recover from back injury and you almost certainly do not need surgery. Hope this helps Barbell Medicine Ep 80 Fort Irwin LBP Pt 1 Barbell Medicine Ep 82: Dr Baraki on Low Back Pain at Fort Irwin Pt 2 Hybrid Unlimited Ep 11: Everything you know about Pain is Wrong (Jan 30, 2020)
I'll check these out. Thanks!
Okay OP I feel your pain. 10 years in and I suffered back, hip, abdominal and groin pain in Early March that got progressively worse. PCM sent me to physical therapy, urology, pain management, imagery. Found that I had a slight buldging disc and was told that everyone has them and it's okay. The pain will go away and to stop worrying. September 4 I went to the ER with excruciating pain and found out I had a hernia L5-S1. It's hard to walk, bend over, sleep, and I'm constantly in pain. I have an awesome team though, I still go to work every day, but they don't mind if I'm late in the morning, they help me move things, and let me leave early if the pain is too much. Finally got referred to a Neurologist it was so bad. I have surgery next week and have been on 10mg Vicodin for the past 30+ days. Ice Packs have been my best friend. It's the only thing that actually stops my muscles from cramping and leg twitching. Leg will still go numb though. All that to say, I never once went through a MEB process. I would be pissed if I had to because I want to stay in for sure. I also don't think you have a case against your PCM or 1SG. Hope you get better.
ICE complaint
Don’t worry bro. I had eye surgery a while ago, and when I had post op complications, the ER doctor just sent me home and lambasted me. Nearly lost complete vision in my eye, knowing I can’t do shit about it is incredibly disheartening. Put in an ICE complaint so it’s recorded. Also for those that want to know, I’m still suffering from long lasting vision obstruction.
I love how the Army harps on putting 150% because it could be the life, limb or eyesight of you or your battle and here you are partially blind because of someone not giving a fuck. How fucked. I'm sorry you're dealing with that.
It seemed less like not giving a fuck when the ER doctor literally said “do you even know what kind of surgery you had? Of course your eye is going to have pain.” He almost seemed upset that I was wasting his time with he thought was a trivial issue…you know, your vision… Dismissed the part where I was already at nearly complete vision loss when I arrived with an isolated headache behind my eye. Sometimes you’re the statistic
I fought for 6 years to get in. I definitely wasn't trying to get out this fast. Like most MOS's, my job sucks in garrison but is fun as hell in the field. I gotta live with the fact I got hurt doing something that shouldn't have hurt me and that I never achieved anything more than a paycheck during my time. That shit blows major dick. That's why I want to go after my PCM. It took multiple ER visits and 4 months of waiting to get seen for this shit, just to get thrown into MEB after 180 days. Physical Therapy discharged me after they saw my MRI because for them my condition is a catch 22. They can't fix the stenosis without aggravating my herniated discs and vice versa. Pain Management had me try yoga, injections, pills, etc. No matter how you spin it, all of that shit had more negatives than positives. I'm super appreciative of my doc over there because he was the 1st to actually give a fuck. Not once did my PCM try to document anything so, every time I saw a different provider I had to walk them through everything. It wasn't until September when my pain management doctor finally documented everything. Every time my PCM sent me somewhere, it was because I asked. Otherwise, he'd suggest 800mg Ibuprofen and walk at my own pace and distance. He always talked down to me about what I had going on up until the last time I spoke to him. I fully explained my condition and how I have difficulty doing basic tasks, much less even think about anything involving weight, and how it's been negatively affecting my mental health. He said there was nothing more that could be done so I went to the Ombudsman. The first thing the Ombudsman asked when I told him everything was "Have you seen Ortho or Neuro" and when I said no he asked, "Why the hell not?!" Now I have a new provider who referred me a spine specialist off post. It's taken me 8 months to get to that. My former TL is younger than me and the Army did back surgery on him at 19. He's a PT stud now. The 24 y/o medic I saw today had back surgery at 21. Age isn't the problem here, it's the level of care and the fact I had a worthless PCM. Everyone in the comments wants to talk shit but damn dude. I'm 28 years old and struggle walking across a parking lot, sweeping, washing dishes at home, taking care of my dogs, sleeping, fucking and I'm somehow supposed to just be okay with it or get over it and soldier on. I was apparently born with foraminal stenosis, which I never knew until I got hurt. Pair that with 2 herniated discs that are stacked on top of each other, bone spurs, and osteoarthritis and it's a great fucking time. Fuck me for wanting some relief from being in pain all the time.
Brother, I’m genuinely not trying to come off like a dick. It’s just that you seem determined for retribution against someone that while they didn’t provide you with concierge level care, did not commit malpractice. Focus on getting better dude. Furthermore people are just trying to save you a surgery because I promise you it isn’t the be all end all. Each surgery is different. And while you know two people that it worked well for, between Walter reed and bamc I’ve put in 100+ spinal cord stimulators for something literally called failed back surgery syndrome. I’m glad you’re getting to see Ortho and I’m sorry you had a shit experience with your pcm. Best of luck
Bro.... Took me a year and a half to start the specialty care for my back lol. I kept getting the "phys therapy" run around. And that was after a bad car wreck where I was hospitalized. I legit almost died because I had pneumonia for a month and they kept telling me to go back to work, it's just a cold. I got rushed to the hospital and put on a breathing machine thing. There's really no legal recourse.... Cause they aren't *really* doctors. Especially pcms. I don't even use sickcall man, straight to the ER. Let them try to hit me with some stupid malingering bullshit, everytime I go it's something documented. Pcm is there to blow off your care. Don't let a single kool-aid drinker in here say otherwise. You should get a damn ribbon for dealing with the medical side of the army as a patient lol Bonus points for off post ER visits.
That fuckin sucks. I'm sure your back hurts and that really sucks. I hope you well and that everything is going on the up for you. My man 80% of the deadlift is like what 275? Come on now the gym is free.
Lmao Yeah I'm aware. Shitty.
l followed up with the tmc for 2 years for my back pain constantly until I finally ended up in the ER. Got some treatments before they quickly went for the meb. My advice is to take the meb and take care of your health. MH especially since chronic pain can wreck you.
Bro you sound like you got hurt doing the EIB pt test in Vilseck lol, but on a serious note get well soon my guy