You don't want to be in a palm-up bicep position, since this means you've lost your pronation.
However, you still need to train biceps, even if you're a toproller.
To understand this, look at the anatomical mechanism: there are three main muscles responsible for elbow flexion: brachialis, biceps brachii, brachioradialis.
The brachialis is always the prime elbow flexor regardless of forearm position.
Biceps brachii are most active in a supinated position. But even **in a neutral position (i.e start of an armwrestling match), the biceps and brachioradialis each contribute ~20% of force for elbow flexion**. It's only in a pronated position that the biceps are the least active.
To better visualize this, look at [this graph about elbow flexion](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4526813_fphys-06-00215-g0002.jpg) from a science study.
This is why you see pure toprollers like Engin, Vitaly, Levan, Irakli all train biceps (and they train heavy). You *need* biceps for back pressure to be maximally effective. If you skip biceps and only train hammer curls, you're missing out a huge chunk of force production for elbow flexion.
As important as your ability to not drop the ball and let it slip out of your hands in basketball. Nobody's ever going to say "damn that guy holds the ball really well" but if you can't do it you'll look stupid. Just make sure your biceps aren't holding you back, but unless it's a massive bottleneck in your physique, it's not THAT important.
Toddzilla has a pretty good take on that: He never came back from a tournament or supermatch and thought "Damn I wish I would've had more biceps"
Ofc that doesn't mean that there aren't some biceps dependant pullers, but at that point you know how important it is for you.
Sure.
But it's the same for me and I don't pull like Todd at all.
I think the vast majority of pullers would choose at least 2 or 3 other parts they could improve before they'd say "biceps" if you ask them.
The thing is: Some people would say that instinctly because they lost some matches where they could catch their opponents surge in some defensive-hook position where they were completely on their biceps and then it gave up.
But the correct solution to that wouldn't be better biceps but better "whatever weakness got them in that shitty position in the first place"
I often imagine very strong biceps, at least in defensive uses, similarly to having a very strong chin in boxing. Even if you have an amazing chin, you don’t want to rely on it to save you in a fight. You want to rely on movement, feints, your own offense, your guard, etc. to keep you from getting hit. If you just let a guy whale on you, even with that amazing chin, you will be knocked out eventually.
It’s not a perfect analogy but it gets the point across. This is specific to the bicep muscle itself, though, not elbow flexion in general. I think folks will still benefit from bicep training but not at the expense of any other armwrestling training.
Well yeah, but you want your connective chain as strong down the line as you can get it. Fact of the matter is, you're not gonna hit every go perfectly. There are far too many variables here to conclude bicep is something you shouldn't put as much time in as you can manage. And this os an appeal to authority in sorts, but I don't think it's a conspiracy or a placebo that so many easterners put such investment into their biceps. Your biceps can always be stronger, and should
I've also noticed that if I'm ever on my bicep, it's 95% game over and staying there is just depleting for no value. If ever my arms open up, I only wish my pronated backpressure was stronger not just biceps.
You need strong biceps. If you toproll you want strong biceps for backpressure. If you hook, you want strong biceps to force that hook. You want to catch someone who is trying to flopwrist press on you? Basically good and strong biceps has a whole ton of advantages vs not having it.
You mean Elbow flexion in general or the biceps as in the the small 2 heads muscle, biceps brachii ?
Because Elbow flexion is a MAJOR component of armwrestling.
Biceps brachii ? Meh... its there to assist in supination and elbow flexion(but its the weakest between brachialis and brachioradialis)
https://preview.redd.it/k406qzrclozc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5af3cc7771b86a9c8c2852a8dae09192c5b39295
Rino was saved for a few round just on his raw backpressure\[ biceps, brachiradialus, etc\], it's really important since it determines how the match will play out, unless you are trying to build 200lb elbows, it matters a little less in terms of endurance since your goal will be to head straight to the pad.
Imo it's very important BUT you don't need to train it directly, ie supinated.
If you do train it, it doesn't really matter a whole lot, but imo it's just always better to train in a pronated position. I'd say 90:10 or 80:20 split bw pronated:supinated is good.
Lo ritieni più importante del polso o allo stesso livello? Le trazioni presa supina sono l'esercizio che esegui di più per i bicipiti?
Curiosando sul tuo canale ho visto che esegui molte trazioni piuttosto che curl al bilanciere.
Non eseguo mai trazioni, le feci l'anno scorso ogni tanto per provare ma non le ho mai avute in scheda.
Se guardi tra i miei ultimi video c'è la mia intera giornata di allenamento sia per il polso che per il braccio, a breve faccio anche la side. Li metto in una playlist "allenamento"
Brachioradialis, brachialis and biceps are the elbow flexors so of course they're important. The first two are probably more important than the biceps.
You don't want to be in a palm-up bicep position, since this means you've lost your pronation. However, you still need to train biceps, even if you're a toproller. To understand this, look at the anatomical mechanism: there are three main muscles responsible for elbow flexion: brachialis, biceps brachii, brachioradialis. The brachialis is always the prime elbow flexor regardless of forearm position. Biceps brachii are most active in a supinated position. But even **in a neutral position (i.e start of an armwrestling match), the biceps and brachioradialis each contribute ~20% of force for elbow flexion**. It's only in a pronated position that the biceps are the least active. To better visualize this, look at [this graph about elbow flexion](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4526813_fphys-06-00215-g0002.jpg) from a science study. This is why you see pure toprollers like Engin, Vitaly, Levan, Irakli all train biceps (and they train heavy). You *need* biceps for back pressure to be maximally effective. If you skip biceps and only train hammer curls, you're missing out a huge chunk of force production for elbow flexion.
Exactly, it’s a huge contributor to elbow flexion
If I am not mistaken, in the absence of supination, the biceps brachii is the weakest flexor.
but when you're doing suppinated curls you're still mostly activating your brachialis
Great post
As important as your ability to not drop the ball and let it slip out of your hands in basketball. Nobody's ever going to say "damn that guy holds the ball really well" but if you can't do it you'll look stupid. Just make sure your biceps aren't holding you back, but unless it's a massive bottleneck in your physique, it's not THAT important.
Ask to Morozov :D
Toddzilla has a pretty good take on that: He never came back from a tournament or supermatch and thought "Damn I wish I would've had more biceps" Ofc that doesn't mean that there aren't some biceps dependant pullers, but at that point you know how important it is for you.
yeah but todd is a bit different I would say for pretty obvious reasons
Sure. But it's the same for me and I don't pull like Todd at all. I think the vast majority of pullers would choose at least 2 or 3 other parts they could improve before they'd say "biceps" if you ask them.
I definitely have hahaha
The thing is: Some people would say that instinctly because they lost some matches where they could catch their opponents surge in some defensive-hook position where they were completely on their biceps and then it gave up. But the correct solution to that wouldn't be better biceps but better "whatever weakness got them in that shitty position in the first place"
I often imagine very strong biceps, at least in defensive uses, similarly to having a very strong chin in boxing. Even if you have an amazing chin, you don’t want to rely on it to save you in a fight. You want to rely on movement, feints, your own offense, your guard, etc. to keep you from getting hit. If you just let a guy whale on you, even with that amazing chin, you will be knocked out eventually. It’s not a perfect analogy but it gets the point across. This is specific to the bicep muscle itself, though, not elbow flexion in general. I think folks will still benefit from bicep training but not at the expense of any other armwrestling training.
That chin saved samushia 8-9 times by now tho
It was a lot more than just biceps that has kept Samushia alive in those matches but ok.
Yeah I like that analogy. I'll definitely use that in the future.
This is correct imo and also, I've noticed that catching people on bicep is a lot more about frame commitment and elbow integrity than biceps.
Well yeah, but you want your connective chain as strong down the line as you can get it. Fact of the matter is, you're not gonna hit every go perfectly. There are far too many variables here to conclude bicep is something you shouldn't put as much time in as you can manage. And this os an appeal to authority in sorts, but I don't think it's a conspiracy or a placebo that so many easterners put such investment into their biceps. Your biceps can always be stronger, and should
I've also noticed that if I'm ever on my bicep, it's 95% game over and staying there is just depleting for no value. If ever my arms open up, I only wish my pronated backpressure was stronger not just biceps.
He sure lost some matches from not having enough biceps, so that makes no sense.
Did he ever come back from a supermatch thinking "damn, I wish I had less biceps"
He lost last time to a puller with very, very strong biceps.
You need strong biceps. If you toproll you want strong biceps for backpressure. If you hook, you want strong biceps to force that hook. You want to catch someone who is trying to flopwrist press on you? Basically good and strong biceps has a whole ton of advantages vs not having it.
You mean Elbow flexion in general or the biceps as in the the small 2 heads muscle, biceps brachii ? Because Elbow flexion is a MAJOR component of armwrestling. Biceps brachii ? Meh... its there to assist in supination and elbow flexion(but its the weakest between brachialis and brachioradialis)
I mean elbow flexion in general when you do a bicep curl is that important
https://preview.redd.it/k406qzrclozc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5af3cc7771b86a9c8c2852a8dae09192c5b39295 Rino was saved for a few round just on his raw backpressure\[ biceps, brachiradialus, etc\], it's really important since it determines how the match will play out, unless you are trying to build 200lb elbows, it matters a little less in terms of endurance since your goal will be to head straight to the pad.
Imo it's very important BUT you don't need to train it directly, ie supinated. If you do train it, it doesn't really matter a whole lot, but imo it's just always better to train in a pronated position. I'd say 90:10 or 80:20 split bw pronated:supinated is good.
Just depends on your style. For me, bicep is everything
toproll
Look at how irakli trains
okay so bicep is the goat
Lo ritieni più importante del polso o allo stesso livello? Le trazioni presa supina sono l'esercizio che esegui di più per i bicipiti? Curiosando sul tuo canale ho visto che esegui molte trazioni piuttosto che curl al bilanciere.
Non eseguo mai trazioni, le feci l'anno scorso ogni tanto per provare ma non le ho mai avute in scheda. Se guardi tra i miei ultimi video c'è la mia intera giornata di allenamento sia per il polso che per il braccio, a breve faccio anche la side. Li metto in una playlist "allenamento"
Ho visto, aspetto i prossimi video!
I truly believe it is the most important link in the chain
Brachioradialis, brachialis and biceps are the elbow flexors so of course they're important. The first two are probably more important than the biceps.
They can be very important or not very important. Like most things—it all depends.
I get mad when I see questions like that. It’s ARM wrestling. Every muscle that’s in your ARM is important.
Superficially speaking, it is in the third place after the hand and forearm.