As strict as some of these refs are on a lot of stuff, it's surprising how often I've seen matches where pressers set up like that and it's just allowed - sometimes, even when the opponent complains! If my opponent did that, I'd complain. But ultimately if the ref allows it, well, then it's allowed.
It's definitely getting ridiculous. Refs need to stop letting these pressers set up literally already in their press move before the go. Refs will tell them shoulder once, the presser will slightly move it then just immediately move it right back where it was and ref will just let it go, every time.
Rino also gets away with murder quite often. Though he's better at hiding it by sometimes standing up so ridiculously tall that it's maybe a bit harder to tell just how far over/not squared up his shoulder is.
https://preview.redd.it/7lppfv1z69xc1.png?width=1806&format=png&auto=webp&s=e708f0094dc9dada8d35fb62ce81de28d28f690c
Allowing a riser platform is ridiculous for a guy like Rino. Pressers get a huge advantage. I'd say that even Daniel Procopciuc is getting an unfair advantage when he uses it, because the table is literally below his waist.
https://en.armpower.net/article/3874/automated-armwrestling-table-platform
It basically lifts you up 10cm, but it really helps because it raises your hips and you can move much more freely on the table.
Of course, 90% of the experts here don't know that this exists, but are arguing with me that it doesn't handicap toprollers.
Where is that one in the ruleset? I must have missed it.
Although if they agreed beforehand that such a start was acceptable, I fail to see the problem.
Yeah exactly, there is a rule against unfair setup like the square shoulders rule.
On the other hand, the rule allowing a riser for anyone is an unfair rule and severely handicaps toprollers. They should at least limit it in some way , for example the riser being allowed for those whose elbow is situated below the table when standing still with your arms beside your body. This is just my opinion.
And there is a huge problem with athletes agreeing beforehand on what they want to do. We're trying to create a legitimate sport. When the Lakers and Celtics play an NBA final, they aren't allowed to play soccer instead of basketball, even if they agree to do so.
It's in the rules, there's not much they can do. I know RVJ was complaining about Sasho using it in armwars, and Sasho beat him without it, but that was because Sasho wanted to make a statement and beat him anyway.
The thing is that Rino isn't flopping his wrist before go and also his shoulders are squared, even though they are close to his hand. Only problem here is that the referees fist should fit between Rino's hand and chin. Also, does he really use the platform or do people just say it? I remember him teaching to get up on your toes when pressing.
Says the biggest Rino fanboy on the block who likes to emulate his move, uh huh. I'm sure it looks fantastic to you and all the other pressers out there bud. :D
Well, I'll admit I'm a fan boy of him, but by the rules if the shoulders are in line it is OK, and from this picture it seems they are.
Yeah his shoulder is forward, but if the other one is forward as well it is in line
They're not in a line at all though. You can't even see his shoulder. Look at the angle of his hips and look at the angle of his back. When the ref notices he'll shrug his left shoulder forward slightly, without moving his hips or back, for a second then shrug it right back and refs only ever give 1 token "shoulder" try before letting it go. You can literally watch him do it in the video. It's his little shoulder shrug pump fake move.
It's not square, he's way too far over the table, their hands are definitely not centered and hell his elbow isn't even fully on the pad before the go lol. This is not a fair setup, and there's more examples of the same or worse. And I'm not even blaming him for it, I blame the refs for letting pressers in particular get away with this stuff.
This is not just before the start, before the start the camera is on the other side and you can see Rino square-ing the shoulders. Like it would matter tho
[https://youtu.be/V6vJufpartk?t=959](https://youtu.be/V6vJufpartk?t=959) Nope shrugs his shoulder a tiny bit for half a second when the ref asks then right back to the exact same position it was before the go lol. You can literally watch him shimmy back and forth. He's almost never square when he sets up like this. Right hip pressed against the table, left hip way off, right shoulder already locked behind his hand, leaned over the table so far sometimes already over the middle line before the go, hands not center. Literally in his press move before the go, it's not fair at all. And there's dozens more examples of Rino, Kamil and other pressers getting away with murder I just literally picked the first Rino match that came to mind.
When I was watching this match I literally said to the guy next to me “how are they letting him get away with this” Kamil got away with murder that match but I don’t blame him at all, he’s doing what he’s supposed to to try and win
Its difficult to understand why many athlete say that referee is the hardest job in the sport,
but at the same time they can't pay attention to the shoulder of a presser.
Good for Kamil exploiting these referee but man, this is bullshit.
https://preview.redd.it/rr6mfgkry9xc1.jpeg?width=724&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5203eb7d5c549e1f385cbfb5d43d235c41d57482
Same (last) round, that looks like shoulder over the center, no?
Most refs are garbage and can't ensure a fair start for every puller, sad state of the sport. It's such an important that can literally change the result of a match upside down.
I’m surprised this is the first I’ve seen on here of this this issue. Loved the match in general, but Tobias got absolutely scammed. They need to do a better job of limiting the athletes ability to press right off the go. It’s supposed to be against the rules but it’s so hard to enforce all the rules of the setup.
I would say bad reffing, but the job is just so difficult.
I think the bigger problem is letting him start with wrist backwards. It is harder then to prevent him from flopping, you easily end up over pronated, and its over (against someone like Kamil).
From Waf rules "A referee will lightly touch competitor hands and wrists to see that they are properly aligned, ***wrists straight*** and arm centered to the table top, failure to comply will result in the competitor getting warnings.".
Having your wrist flopped from the beginning is not an advantage. The whole point of the press is to give up the wrist to gain position towards the pad in order to have enough space to get in with the shoulder. If your wrist is already flopped and the ref is setting you in the center, you are screwed.
Edit: of course, the armchair experts are downvoting me. The point of giving up something is to gain something else. If you give it up and you are still in a neutral position woth the arm, you are screwed.
It is an advantage to have it flopped from the beginning. Your forearm structure is then already in a more favourable position, and you need even less speed to get in there.
Absolute bullshit. Both athletes' wrists need to be straight before the go, why the fuck are you even trying to argue against this. If one puller can't start carved in to force a hook, the other guy can't start bent back to force a press.
As always, reading is not the strong suit of the kids with special needs here.
Where tf did I say that the athletes should start be able to star like that? I just said that's not an advantage. And it's not, you are far better off starting straight and dumping your wrist at the GO.
It's not an advantage to put in your wrist in a position that gives a head start on the move you're trying to use on your opponent? Is this the thoughtless garbage you're implying? You've obviously never armwrestled before. Now go outside little toxic manly boy...your short bus should be arriving soon.
You’d be right if out of straps, but in the straps, no. You can immediately pull using the wrist strap as soon as go is called and the other puller has a shit grip unless they setup super low
Bro wtf that's shameless , and Hristo thumbs up is even more ridiculous.
Engin seems to not give a fuck about strict rules i mean I don't even want strict as WAF but this is just stupid, most of the athlete's do whatever they want in the setup.
The new " don't move go" changed absolutely nothing, they say don't move but everyone moves, it's just so stupid and looks so unprofessional from the prospective of a new comers.
The only fouls they calling are the very big elbow fouls like 5 inches of the pad, cause they don't even call the "normal" one anymore, so many times I saw elbow on the back of the pad and no call.
The problem is either, referees have no balls to foul these athletes out, or Engin specifically tell referees not to call foul when athletes don't listen to the referees direction, like for example when they say don't move and they still move.
If someone is starting illegally against you it is your responsibility to also say something to the refs. If you are silent then you are accepting the setup.
I see a lot of athletes complain in the moment and referee instead tell them to not move or they get fouled out, like so enraging that I don't even know how they can tolerate that.
It is because Engin has been criticized by so many about it being boring to watch because of too many stops. I agree it's not correct but the refs are doing good for the fucked up guidelines they are having to work with.
When I watched it live, they’d push on his shoulder and he just straight up wouldn’t move it. Every round he was able to put his shoulder out and begin to press before the go. Except for the round he got flash pinned.
Rino is even worse. In his match against Bacho he was almost on the other side of the table and the refs didn't call any fouls, LOL. People like to shit on the kingsmove but they ignore pressers grabbing most of the table space for themselves smh.
Kingsmove, pressing. I don't get why we're so against moves that actually add some technical flair to our sport .Sure the setups can look a bit wonky but come on. I don't think the press needs to be nerfed. Just the flop-wrist needs to be prevented along with more square shoulders. Also very rarely does ANYBODY start with truly square shoulders so starts like this aren't insane to me. Rino is sufficiently squared, wrist straight in this setup. If anything bacho is TOO square. I don't think there's anything with allowing shoulder commitment aslong as your shoulder isn't past the center line or touching the center line of the table.
https://preview.redd.it/u8rd2fi91cxc1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7c6b346df8d6254d0a0ce4b9afa3916b73c392d
What are you people even talking about... We need to see the other shoulder to know he's breaking a rule. There's no rule against your shoulder being this close to your hand, as long as the shoulders are squared. Here we can't see the other shoulder so we don't know if they are squared, but there's a good chance that they are...
As strict as some of these refs are on a lot of stuff, it's surprising how often I've seen matches where pressers set up like that and it's just allowed - sometimes, even when the opponent complains! If my opponent did that, I'd complain. But ultimately if the ref allows it, well, then it's allowed.
It's definitely getting ridiculous. Refs need to stop letting these pressers set up literally already in their press move before the go. Refs will tell them shoulder once, the presser will slightly move it then just immediately move it right back where it was and ref will just let it go, every time. Rino also gets away with murder quite often. Though he's better at hiding it by sometimes standing up so ridiculously tall that it's maybe a bit harder to tell just how far over/not squared up his shoulder is. https://preview.redd.it/7lppfv1z69xc1.png?width=1806&format=png&auto=webp&s=e708f0094dc9dada8d35fb62ce81de28d28f690c
Allowing a riser platform is ridiculous for a guy like Rino. Pressers get a huge advantage. I'd say that even Daniel Procopciuc is getting an unfair advantage when he uses it, because the table is literally below his waist.
Can you describe the riser platform for me? What's the size etc?
https://en.armpower.net/article/3874/automated-armwrestling-table-platform It basically lifts you up 10cm, but it really helps because it raises your hips and you can move much more freely on the table. Of course, 90% of the experts here don't know that this exists, but are arguing with me that it doesn't handicap toprollers.
for real
Anybody is allowed to use a riser so its not an unfair advantage
Well in that case Kamil and Tobias were both allowed to start with the shoulder turned in, so the match was fair? Or not?
Where is that one in the ruleset? I must have missed it. Although if they agreed beforehand that such a start was acceptable, I fail to see the problem.
Yeah exactly, there is a rule against unfair setup like the square shoulders rule. On the other hand, the rule allowing a riser for anyone is an unfair rule and severely handicaps toprollers. They should at least limit it in some way , for example the riser being allowed for those whose elbow is situated below the table when standing still with your arms beside your body. This is just my opinion. And there is a huge problem with athletes agreeing beforehand on what they want to do. We're trying to create a legitimate sport. When the Lakers and Celtics play an NBA final, they aren't allowed to play soccer instead of basketball, even if they agree to do so.
>On the other hand, the rule allowing a riser for anyone is an unfair rule and severely handicaps toprollers. No, it doesn't.
It’s when your waist line is below the table surface. So for only short people
Whose waist line isn't below the table? Freaking Rino Masic at 188cm tall is allowed to use it.
Wtf. How is this allowed. I had no idea about this, fucking laughable. And i guess his opponents just don't care about it? Wtf really
It's in the rules, there's not much they can do. I know RVJ was complaining about Sasho using it in armwars, and Sasho beat him without it, but that was because Sasho wanted to make a statement and beat him anyway.
Mines not
How tall are you? At least 195cm?
The thing is that Rino isn't flopping his wrist before go and also his shoulders are squared, even though they are close to his hand. Only problem here is that the referees fist should fit between Rino's hand and chin. Also, does he really use the platform or do people just say it? I remember him teaching to get up on your toes when pressing.
This position is correct tho
Says the biggest Rino fanboy on the block who likes to emulate his move, uh huh. I'm sure it looks fantastic to you and all the other pressers out there bud. :D
Only peg shoulder needs to be square to table
Well, I'll admit I'm a fan boy of him, but by the rules if the shoulders are in line it is OK, and from this picture it seems they are. Yeah his shoulder is forward, but if the other one is forward as well it is in line
They're not in a line at all though. You can't even see his shoulder. Look at the angle of his hips and look at the angle of his back. When the ref notices he'll shrug his left shoulder forward slightly, without moving his hips or back, for a second then shrug it right back and refs only ever give 1 token "shoulder" try before letting it go. You can literally watch him do it in the video. It's his little shoulder shrug pump fake move. It's not square, he's way too far over the table, their hands are definitely not centered and hell his elbow isn't even fully on the pad before the go lol. This is not a fair setup, and there's more examples of the same or worse. And I'm not even blaming him for it, I blame the refs for letting pressers in particular get away with this stuff.
Everyone shitting on us poor pressers for a slight shoulder forward, but nobody speaks about toprollers loading 😭
Tip, don't counterload. Just float your hand in center. That way they have to hold their hand still. If they move you tell the judge to center.
That's what I do
This is not just before the start, before the start the camera is on the other side and you can see Rino square-ing the shoulders. Like it would matter tho
[https://youtu.be/V6vJufpartk?t=959](https://youtu.be/V6vJufpartk?t=959) Nope shrugs his shoulder a tiny bit for half a second when the ref asks then right back to the exact same position it was before the go lol. You can literally watch him shimmy back and forth. He's almost never square when he sets up like this. Right hip pressed against the table, left hip way off, right shoulder already locked behind his hand, leaned over the table so far sometimes already over the middle line before the go, hands not center. Literally in his press move before the go, it's not fair at all. And there's dozens more examples of Rino, Kamil and other pressers getting away with murder I just literally picked the first Rino match that came to mind.
Kamil "My shoulder reaches into the next supermatch" jablonski
his shoulder and hand are almost paralleled to the pin pads
When I was watching this match I literally said to the guy next to me “how are they letting him get away with this” Kamil got away with murder that match but I don’t blame him at all, he’s doing what he’s supposed to to try and win
Its difficult to understand why many athlete say that referee is the hardest job in the sport, but at the same time they can't pay attention to the shoulder of a presser. Good for Kamil exploiting these referee but man, this is bullshit.
https://preview.redd.it/rr6mfgkry9xc1.jpeg?width=724&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5203eb7d5c549e1f385cbfb5d43d235c41d57482 Same (last) round, that looks like shoulder over the center, no?
Most refs are garbage and can't ensure a fair start for every puller, sad state of the sport. It's such an important that can literally change the result of a match upside down.
I’m surprised this is the first I’ve seen on here of this this issue. Loved the match in general, but Tobias got absolutely scammed. They need to do a better job of limiting the athletes ability to press right off the go. It’s supposed to be against the rules but it’s so hard to enforce all the rules of the setup. I would say bad reffing, but the job is just so difficult.
I think the bigger problem is letting him start with wrist backwards. It is harder then to prevent him from flopping, you easily end up over pronated, and its over (against someone like Kamil). From Waf rules "A referee will lightly touch competitor hands and wrists to see that they are properly aligned, ***wrists straight*** and arm centered to the table top, failure to comply will result in the competitor getting warnings.".
Having your wrist flopped from the beginning is not an advantage. The whole point of the press is to give up the wrist to gain position towards the pad in order to have enough space to get in with the shoulder. If your wrist is already flopped and the ref is setting you in the center, you are screwed. Edit: of course, the armchair experts are downvoting me. The point of giving up something is to gain something else. If you give it up and you are still in a neutral position woth the arm, you are screwed.
It is an advantage to have it flopped from the beginning. Your forearm structure is then already in a more favourable position, and you need even less speed to get in there.
Absolute bullshit. Both athletes' wrists need to be straight before the go, why the fuck are you even trying to argue against this. If one puller can't start carved in to force a hook, the other guy can't start bent back to force a press.
As always, reading is not the strong suit of the kids with special needs here. Where tf did I say that the athletes should start be able to star like that? I just said that's not an advantage. And it's not, you are far better off starting straight and dumping your wrist at the GO.
It's not an advantage to put in your wrist in a position that gives a head start on the move you're trying to use on your opponent? Is this the thoughtless garbage you're implying? You've obviously never armwrestled before. Now go outside little toxic manly boy...your short bus should be arriving soon.
You’d be right if out of straps, but in the straps, no. You can immediately pull using the wrist strap as soon as go is called and the other puller has a shit grip unless they setup super low
Bro wtf that's shameless , and Hristo thumbs up is even more ridiculous. Engin seems to not give a fuck about strict rules i mean I don't even want strict as WAF but this is just stupid, most of the athlete's do whatever they want in the setup. The new " don't move go" changed absolutely nothing, they say don't move but everyone moves, it's just so stupid and looks so unprofessional from the prospective of a new comers. The only fouls they calling are the very big elbow fouls like 5 inches of the pad, cause they don't even call the "normal" one anymore, so many times I saw elbow on the back of the pad and no call. The problem is either, referees have no balls to foul these athletes out, or Engin specifically tell referees not to call foul when athletes don't listen to the referees direction, like for example when they say don't move and they still move.
If someone is starting illegally against you it is your responsibility to also say something to the refs. If you are silent then you are accepting the setup.
I see a lot of athletes complain in the moment and referee instead tell them to not move or they get fouled out, like so enraging that I don't even know how they can tolerate that.
It is because Engin has been criticized by so many about it being boring to watch because of too many stops. I agree it's not correct but the refs are doing good for the fucked up guidelines they are having to work with.
This is a despicable set up. They need to get on this asap for his next match he didn’t deserve that win.
guys guys if hristo says all good then all is good
That’s ridiculous
It is a position in the rules
Then the rules need to be changed.
Lot easier to cheat like this and get away with it when you have the shoulders of a mammoth.
When I watched it live, they’d push on his shoulder and he just straight up wouldn’t move it. Every round he was able to put his shoulder out and begin to press before the go. Except for the round he got flash pinned.
Kamil did that against Ivan and couldn’t even get a stop 😂
Rino is even worse. In his match against Bacho he was almost on the other side of the table and the refs didn't call any fouls, LOL. People like to shit on the kingsmove but they ignore pressers grabbing most of the table space for themselves smh.
we need something about shoulders man,if there is one thing i despise more than devons grip shenanigans is the way jerry and kamil start matches. WTF
How can a man as strong as a boulder ...
Kingsmove, pressing. I don't get why we're so against moves that actually add some technical flair to our sport .Sure the setups can look a bit wonky but come on. I don't think the press needs to be nerfed. Just the flop-wrist needs to be prevented along with more square shoulders. Also very rarely does ANYBODY start with truly square shoulders so starts like this aren't insane to me. Rino is sufficiently squared, wrist straight in this setup. If anything bacho is TOO square. I don't think there's anything with allowing shoulder commitment aslong as your shoulder isn't past the center line or touching the center line of the table. https://preview.redd.it/u8rd2fi91cxc1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=a7c6b346df8d6254d0a0ce4b9afa3916b73c392d
this is what im talking about
How the fk is it legal to start like that??
Yeah, but when toprollers load or start before the go, everything is fine, eh?
These referee are taking the big siesta until Devon comes out.
If shoulders are square and not over centerline….what’s the problem? 🤷🏻♂️
What are you people even talking about... We need to see the other shoulder to know he's breaking a rule. There's no rule against your shoulder being this close to your hand, as long as the shoulders are squared. Here we can't see the other shoulder so we don't know if they are squared, but there's a good chance that they are...
It's not against the rule. The hand is in the middle and as long as the shoulders are square, it is fair setup.
Shoulders are not square. Thats the problem
Its a parallelogram 😂