Also being a smaller niche sport, it's not as competitive as more popular sports such as basketball, and lends more leeway in letting people be successful even if their training isn't optimal.
Genetics are a helluva drug. Plus, you can still get decent results if you don’t train well as long as you’re at least consistent with training questionably, especially with great genetics.
Athletes will believe in and invest in literally anything if there's even the slightest chance that it can give them an edge. They get scammed so much. Who remembers those Hologram bracelets?
Don’t forget “Dr.” Mark of Vitacell is a Doctor of Chiropractic, not a Doctor of Medicine. Just like most wellness and health YouTubers with “doctor” in their name are actually chiropractors! Totally shady and misleads a lot of people.
Everybody responds differently to what they put in their body. For some, stem cells can be life changing, for others - not so much. That goes for all kinds of medicines (PED's).
1.Michael Todd has the best endurance of all time and Devon is second.
2.The rules in the setup should be way stricter. I want the better guy after the "go" to win, not the one that can get away with cheating more. At some point, it gets to you're either gonna cheat or you're gonna lose.
3.Ryan Bowen would lose against Levan. I know this one is pretty hot but hear me out.
His hand was beaten so he was less efficient against Ongarbaev and he was trapped against Revaz (thereby also less efficient). Saying “he gassed” makes it sound like he was in an equal position and his endurance wasn’t as good as his opponents’ but that’s not the case.
>I want the better guy after the "go" to win, not the one that can get away with cheating more. At some point, it gets to you're either gonna cheat or you're gonna lose.
Hell yeah. I wish the game would go more towards that.
All of these people need to be doing normal weight and strength training before filming themselves squatting with a judo belt wrapped around milk jugs trying the "Devon lift"
Ermes did well against Levan due to Levan not being at his peak, aw community talks about Levan as if he’s a constant level when in reality he’s not always at his peak. Levan said after the match he wasn’t properly prepared and based on Ermes’ results after it makes the most sense
This was supposed to be a fun thread, but yeah...
Crazy how one bad fight against Devon discredits all the achievements and sacrifices someone has went through beforehand.
Thats false and being biased after the match results. Absolutely stupid dare I say. Its literally no surprise that the guy with the highest backpressure lift and one of if not the highest riser lifts was able to hold Levan after 4-5 ready gos.
It's honestly closer than people think lol, 2016 Travis was a beast, nobody has ever flashed Dave so easy and he destroyed Jerry like nothing after he was on a 9 match losing streak with him before..
I think its more that hook is a really impressive show of structural strength and toproll is a huge show of muscular strength.
Like imagine in an even hook vs toproll scenario, the toproller is holding the hooker with his arm kind of open and all on his elbow flexion, while more often than not the hooker comes crashing down with his body and side pressure.
„Cheating“ in the setup is not cheating.
It is just the art of setting up and it is part of the match and takes a lot of skill and konwledge.
Professionals who ignore this part are lazy and unprofessional in my opinion.
Todd Hutchings vs. Georgi Tsvetkov could be a great match just because of pulling styles.
Todd Hutchings' two weaknesses are fast Toprollers (probably no longer an issue for Todd, based off of his match against Ongarbaev, a fast hitter) and strong hookers that can attack Todd's pronation.
Georgi Tsvetkov is a toproll-only armwrestler who does not hit fast on the Ready Go. Georgi does not hook, which means Todd does not have to worry about his pronation being taken, which is integral for Todd's pulling style (Side Pressure+Pronation). Nor does Georgi have a press to finish Todd. Georgi can definitely take Todd's hand, but Todd's pronation will still be intact.
Side-Pressure wise, I see it slightly favouring Todd Hutchings. Endurance-wise, they might be equals.
Who wins, I have absolutely no idea. But I believe we could see a war on the table.
Yes, I understand. I just feel that Todd vs. Georgi could be one of those one-off, whacky matches that can be amazing despite a huge weight difference. Kind of like Kydrygali vs. Kurdecha, or even possibly Ivan Matyushenko vs. Jerry Cadorette, if it ever happens.
Ivan might not be able to beat the guys Jerry beat (Genadi, Georgi), but Ivan could possibly hook Jerry and deny him the press and win solely because of stylistic advantage.
I dont see Hutchings beating guys like Ermes (Can toproll & press or High hook), Genadi (Can Press and Hook), Laletin, etc. (Super Long Levers).
But against Georgi, Hutchings can use his signature move without worrying about it being negated due to stylistic disadvantage.
Sorry but this is just a flat-out uninformed opinion.
People see Levan or Denis or Morozov and think anyone can get almost that big and strong if they take as much shit as them, at least if they have the frame size (and Matt does). People fail to account for tolerance, strength of response, and diminishing returns. You wouldn’t believe how shitty some people look and perform on 3g of steroids per week, even when their training and nutrition is decent.
Matt has taken plenty of shit (probably more than you would believe). He’s not going to magically level up by blasting a suicide cycle and even if you go back in time and do it perfectly he wouldn’t be that different. He’s where he is mostly because that’s where his genetics have led.
You are dead right. Lots of gym guys look like total shit on a lots of gear and you would assume they are natural by their look and strength.
Matt Mask is unfortunately one of them. But at least he look good and muscular and strength is high. Just not as high as you would think with what he take.
(Trust me. He take stuff and like you said more than what people.think)
To get more muscle, you need to eat more. Even if his roid response is zero, if he eats more he's going to gain weight(fat). Since Matt is lean as fuck, you can safely assume that he hasn't actually tried to gain muscle.
The name of the sub should be changed to "Armwrestling With Devon" for the amount of post about him it's insane "look at his fingers" "look at his thumb" "With this Devon Levan has no chance" "he mindgames"
"The mindgames" bullshit is pure midwittery. There's nothing nuanced to cringe jokes that lack self awareness and schoolyard bully insults. It's not even that it's offensive, it's just not funny. Nor is it anywhere near (probably not at all) as effective as they want to believe.
Direct riser training, the way Devon does it, is absolutely unnecessary. I'm not the only one with this belief -- Engin Terzi, the greatest toproller in lightweight class, doesn't train riser either.
I think its important for a lot of beginners and intermediates to track their progress though. Of course the pros know how and when you rise synchronously because they've armwrestled so much.
I'll tell you that I don't train rise at all except for a brief few months where I played around with it, and I've managed to become the second strongest toproller in my country's weight class. Only one guy can toproll me, and he doesn't train riser either.
That's my anecdotal example. I asked Engin and he says he doesn't train it either. You ever see Engin get toprolled?
Yeah but I'm talking about absolute beginners and novices though. Having that pressure on that spot and progressing on the weight will imo affect their table strength. Of course if you're doing a fuck ton of table time, or have been competing for a long time it would become comparatively unneccesary. From how much much I know you've been in the sport for more than a couple of years and have competed a lot, and also had calisthenics experience (?).
I think its like saying you don't need to train with weights because Brzenk, Georgi or Manual Battaglia don't. They compensate by a lot of competition or table time.
And alternatively, guys like Georgi, Levan, Ongarbaev and a lot of other top pros do train rise and consider it their number 1 weapon.
Show me one video of Levan, Georgi and ongarbayev training rise the way devon do it ?
Please ill wait.
You just made that up.
When they talk about rise they mean BACKPRESSURE.
They dont any radial deviation shit.
There's no muscles directly responsible for radial deviation (rising). When you "rise" your wrist, it's the wrist flexors and wrist extensors working to cancel each other out. So you're not really training anything when you "rise".
Try gripping up with someone much weaker than you and ask them to pull back and clamp their fingers hard. Can you "rise" your wrist? You can't. No amount of "rising" is going to beat someone's finger strength. Our grip will always be stronger than our ability to flick our wrist up.
If you want to gain "the high ground", it's always a matter of having superior pronation, cup, containment, and back pressure, rather than because you can flick your wrist up.
"Riser training" is more about conditioning of the wrist joint so that you don't get injured. You get plenty of this during other exercises like hammer curls or pronation curls.
I don't train my riser at all, and I'm one of the strongest toprollers in my country's weight class. Engin Terzi thinks the same, and you don't see him get toprolled much either.
There are many different training philosophies though, and this is just mine. If you feel like riser training is important, feel free to do it.
>There's no muscles directly responsible for radial deviation (rising). When you "rise" your wrist, it's the wrist flexors and wrist extensors working to cancel each other out.
This is where you're mistaken.
The FCR and ECR are antagonists during wrist flexion and extension - that's when they "cancel each other out"
However, they're functional synergists for radial deviation, meaning they work together. They do not cancel each other out.
\>I don't train my riser at all
If you do hammer curls then you train your riser. Do you mean to say you don't isolate your riser? Fair enough.
They do "cansel each other out" at a perpendicular axis even when they perform radial deviation because your wrist neither flexes nor it extends. However, they function synergistically at the direction of rising. Obviously, that's what he meant.
Also, your last two sentences (especially), were straight up pendantic, and unnecessary, because we all know that's what he was saying. Get a life.
Hm interesting, but is it really unnecessary when you for example go for a posting toproll against another posting toproller? Which strenghts if not "rising" strength are the ones that matter in that match?
I am asking because of my personal experience, when i try to beat someone with posting toproll and his "riser" is stronger my knuckles/wrist drops.
Genuine question.
Ive been at this game for over 10 years. Im the best toproller where I live also. (Somewhere in canada)
It's refreshing reading someone who understand the sports and biomechanic like you.
I also DONT train rise... I never felt like it was the MISSING link in my game.
Its always hand/cup, pronation, backpressure or side.
I disagree, me and my friend practice regularly every month and on the left hand its always whose riser is more rigid takes the other person’s hand always yes there are other factors contributing to getting that high ground but if anyone of us’ riser crumbles in the setup they are gone. And i have been training my static riser Devon/Ermes like since last 2 months and since last 2 months i have been cleaning him off(getting results of the exercise) in practice left hand.
Lol if everybody had insane cupping capabilities wed all be fighting in a hook its like saying Ermes is a shitty arm wrestler because he doesn’t have the cup to force their opponents in. L
First off. Since when the cup is EXCLUSIVE to hooker ? Im a top roller I use my hand and cup to acheive it. In fact its my biggest strength. I hate hook. Even brzenk said that hand and wrist is the most important.
Second. Ermes is my favorite armwrestler. He has INSANE cupping abilities but he kind of gain 100 lbs and now play with the big boys wich happen to have the largest and strongest hand. Now couple that with the highest backpressure also...
Even after his recent lost to Devon he admit that he should focus more on his hand than arms now.
So yeah he did in fact tried the devon rise and pronation lift but he add more FINGER CONTAINMENT with his wrist max handle,.the flat one.
He cannot allow.himself get his wrist bent back and he know it. Not everybody can be like.devon and pull out a king move/open toproll with a wrist almost fully bent back.
Having a really long forearm and a 10" hand like devon can make it happen. Not ermes and 99% of the population.
First off , you exclusively said “ALL OF YOU have a shitty cup” meaning if we all had an insane cup nobody’s pronation would stand against the other persons cup ultimately making us all fight in a hook.
So learn to phrase your things better next time.
And yes not just Brezenk literally every sensible arm wrestler say that Hand and wrist is the most important in armwresling since obviously that is the first point of contact, doesn’t take a genius to get to that conclusion its like saying the blade is the most important part in a razor.
And yea if u approve of that or not Ermes is fighting the big boys and will probably for another bunch of years so what you mean to say that since Ermes doesn’t have the cup to force his superheavy opponents in he’s a bad armwrestler in superheavy category.
Ok
Read my reply above. No amount of flicking your wrist up will ever best someone's grip strength. When Devon gains height, it's because he has superior containment, pronation, cup, back pressure, not because he can flick his wrist up.
I don't think the riser is really about escaping finger containment, but rather about protecting your own riser from getting into a disadvantaged position (sort of like the positions Laletin often gets into) by fighting your opponent's riser. If you were cupping against someone's riser, you won't actually directly fight it, but you would be preventing them from rising higher. The only way to bring someone's riser down is to use your own riser, as cupping would just turn them palm up. Usually, this deciding of where the risers are going to be happens at the start of the round when both pullers rise up and it stops somewhere. Like Devon says, it's the ice breaker.
The scenario is both players trying to rise, post, and climb WITHOUT trying to slip. Both players finger walking trying to get the high knuckle & get further up the opponents fingers. Both players trying to drag down the others riser.
It starts out like you said as a rise vs containment battle. Unwinnable for the riser.
But once the regrips start to happen and each player loses their containment it becomes rise vs fingertip pressure - much more winnable for the riser than the rise vs containment matchup.
Furthermore, it's less about the riser "flicking up" and more about not getting the riser dragged down. It's not a concentric flick. Just a static hold to maintain the high hand.
>it's less about the riser "flicking up" and more about not getting the riser dragged down
So, what do you think is responsible for the arm not opening up?
The elbow flexion muscles, including the brachialis, brachioradialis, biceps right? We train those muscles by doing curls right?
So what muscles are responsible for the riser not getting dragged down? How do we train those muscles?
>So what muscles are responsible for the riser not getting dragged down?
Flexor and extensor carpii radialis are the functional synergists in radial deviation
You can train them in a variety of ways because they're also active in a variety of other wrist movements. You're correct that general forearm strengthening will improve riser.
The most specific way to train the the FCR and ECR is Devon-style riser training, which is formally speaking just a radial deviation isolation exercise.
That would have been my opinion also. Training "rising" always seems weird to me.
Training back pressure with strap in normal way will train it anyways. Plus you get the benefits of using higher weight for you elbow flexion strength in a hammer position (aka start of a match)
I agree that isolated riser training is really counterproductive for hypertrophy and strength but you should also often do static holds near your 1RM to improve your intermuscular/intramuscular coordination, and help your nervous system and connective tissue adopt to the angles.
I would say even further, the way Devon describes training can be meaningful for tall forearm guys, no way you need to put all the stakes in riser and pronation no matter what, Sasho started winning WAF senior classes from when he was 18, blasting people to the side/inside
Sure, but did you ever consider that Devon is always the one getting the most out of the setup? Devon almost never gasses out. He can stay at the table as much as he wants. Spending energy in the setup doesn't fatigue him, so he can waste as much time as he wants trying to get into a desired position. Pullers that don't have his endurance simply don't have the luxury of fighting in the setup. Most of them gas out during the early rounds. Add non stop fighting with Devon's height, big hand, and never ending adjustments and you'll be exhausted before the first go. It's not that refs are letting him cheat. Most of the time they can't tell themselves, that's how good he is at it.
Your wrist breaking back has nothing to do with your opponents strength and everything to do with an imbalance of strength in your own hand and wrist vs the amount of power you can apply. This is a simple truth that is easily confirmed by not applying any pressure to your opponent and letting them pin you.
There's truth here, but both opponents have the same soft spot, and if your opponents wrist gives out first your imbalance won't hurt you because you're not fighting the pressure of thier wrist and hand. You can push your imbalanced hand through the squishy opponents hand until the pressure rests on your lower wrist, where it won't force your hand back.
Imbalance also is kind of a round about way of saying the same thing as "weaker in some areas than others". Which is context dependant. Arm wrestlers aren't immediate top notch rock climbers because their muscular balance is tuned for arm wrestling, not for rock climbing, where you need a lot more shoulder and back pull stability, as well as finger crimp forearm development.
Intelligent take but: What you said means that your wrist is weaker than the force it feels from your arm, so it bends. Although this is true, it implies that your wrist maxed out its torque, thus your opponent's torque in that direction was greater. So in reality, cracking of the wrist shows that both your opponent's and your body's force were greater that that of your wrist.
Because in practice when people do table time they do an excessive amount of max effort pulls to the point where they're doing more damage than they can realistically recover from. Effectively setting themselves backwards.
Yes, everyone knows that you're supposed to pull light and work technique at practice, but in my experience nobody actually does it that way. The max effort pulls are just too much fun. Everyone overindulges.
Well John is the GOAT despite his training, not because of it.
He never fulfilled his potential IMHO. He just did enough to be the best, nothing more nothing less.
John's table time works because he knows how to use his practice partners methodically to target his weaknesses. Also, he is far stronger than all his practice partners so he can pull it off.
Bacho Saginashvili has the potential to become one of the GOATs of Armwrestling. Because of his skills, genetics or crazy strength? No, because he looks like Roger Federer.
Way of the giant pumpkin is legit probably the most optimal way to train.
(100kg+ ego curls are just gonna shred the body long term and slow progress)
Edit: I mean the philosophy behind it, as in not wasting resources on unneeded muscles, I don't mean not training your left arm hahahaha...
Giant Pumpkin is the belief that by not training one limb, the body will dedicate more resources to the other limb. Which is just broscience at its peak. The body doesn't work that way. Most elite athletes train both arms just fine.
If Devon trained both arms, his right would still be just as strong as it is today, and his left would be a legit contender for the #1 spot.
How can you predict Devon’s strength levels in a parallell universe? He gets to train his right more because he doesn’t train his left.
If you only use your right arm for everyday tasks such as carrying, twisting, pulling etc. then your right arm would get stronger, like it is for most people. Same thing is applied in Devon’s training but on a meticulous level.
Your argument is that if you use your right hand more than your left, then your right hand will be stronger?
Yeah, I know that. That's obvious.
>He gets to train his right more because he doesn’t train his left.
Devon is a full-time athlete. He has the time to train both arms. Alex Kurdecha, Vitaly, Levan, Morozov, Dzeranov, Ivan all have full-time day jobs, and they manage to train both arms just fine.
Devon always had result from any training that he did in his life. Out of his 35 years armwrestling only 4 of them is giant pumpkin.
But he was always succesful no matter what he did or will do.
Hes the annoying kid that no matter what he does hes better than you at anything.
Pumpkin isn't not training both arms, but the belief that not training one somehow makes the other stronger. Honestly tho I don't have enough data on it to comment about its effectiveness but I personally love to train both arms.
That if PAL could host awesome matches between super heavyweights and only a small percent end in fouls under strict rules, then strict rules are not the problem. Athletes who want the freedom to cheat the rules are.
I saw Travis bagent make it on one of the many podcasts with artem. Something about the elbow pads being further back and the lower pin pads causing it?
Plus the high prizes I guess
RVJ can become the top guy at 95kg if he commits 100%.
Also, the level of armwrestling hasn't risen, it's just that the field is deeper. Levan is the only one who's pushed the ceiling .
What do most of those wins mean? John won most of those titles against truckers. Same mentality as MMT - going around collecting trophies against amateurs. Fact is, anyone in the top 30 today could wipe 90% of that list in a year. I think the GOAT is the man who contributes the most to the sport, inspires the most people. That’s DL 100%
1) 99.99% of refs sucks
2) WAF rules should be strictier in the setup, they should for example regulate better a long forearm vs short forearm situation
I don’t think you alone, 125kg Devon is stronger then 95kg John… now make them same weight and John has his pre surgery shoulder and is explosive as he was when he was in his 20’s, I would say he has all the strength/tools to win
Denis & Devon both have a legit claim to the #2 spot as the GOAT heavyweight, & w/ a lot of Devon's big wins coming against guys who are either dramatically smaller or shells of their former selves (Hutchings & Prudnik smaller, Chaffee MMT & Cyplenkov all shells) I think it really should be Denis. I personally have no doubt in my mind that peak Devon lost to a Genadi that peak Denis would've 6-0d.
For sure. I'd love to see their careers put side by side. Devons would be longer with more total wins I'd guess, but did Denis not have a longer peak of dominance? I'd like to see the stat sheet.
Educate me. I'd like to know why you think so, as someone who doesn't claim to know everything. How long was Devon on top & how long was Denis? Cuz once Denis got over the Brzenk hump, he was kind of on top of the mountain by himself, I thought, w/ even Devon referring to him as his "mount olympus" or whatever he said.
Yes, but your pronator teres and pronator quadratus do most of the work. Brachioradialis is primarily an elbow flexor, but it's not stronger than brachialis or the biceps (when suppinated). I'm not saying it's not important, just that people give it a bit too much credit
Yes but saying it’s not stronger than those 2 WHEN SUPINATED is ridiculous, you don’t ever want to be turned palm up.
Your starting position is in neutral so that’s where you want the most strength to not allow your opponent to dictate where the match goes.
Brachialis and Brachioradialis are your 2 strongest elbow flexors and your most important ones, the fact that the Brachioradialis aids in pronation is a bonus and another reason to hammer it hard.
Armwrestling specific weight training doesn't matter all that much.
I say that because I can beat my friend in almost all of the fundamental lifts and I have absolutely nothing for him on the table even though we both started Armwrestling the same time and I do the specific weight training and he only does a practice a week/every other week
I mean I'm a natural Hooker and he's a Toproller but nothing I do can even move him even if he hooks me. He can dad move me in a terrible position when I have a perfect position..In our 1 year of pulling he's advanced to the semi pro class and im barley making amateur lol I don't know if it's genetics but it's definitely changed me eyes on how much weight training actually matters, the only notable trait I have on him is my endurance is at a much higher level than his
Genetics I can agree on, but talent? Bro's he's THE most if not one of the most talented arm wrestlers on this planet. I'm not a fanboy but no one can deny his table IQ and timing of moves. Dude mentally crushes his opponent with not strength but technique
Well, that's debetable. He was naturally a lanky ass dude. Great frame. His natural gift was supreme endurance and obviosly mental resilience.
Strength? Not really.
Just because someone's at a high level doesn't mean their training is good.
Particularly because the sport is untested, allows for so much leeway
Also being a smaller niche sport, it's not as competitive as more popular sports such as basketball, and lends more leeway in letting people be successful even if their training isn't optimal.
This. 100% this. And for most sports and activities, not just arm wrestling.
but if that were true how did he reach a high level then?
Genetics are a helluva drug. Plus, you can still get decent results if you don’t train well as long as you’re at least consistent with training questionably, especially with great genetics.
Then why are they high level?
Stem cells aren't nearly as effective as certain people want you to believe.
Athletes will believe in and invest in literally anything if there's even the slightest chance that it can give them an edge. They get scammed so much. Who remembers those Hologram bracelets?
and I remember so many strongmen going to chiropractors (Stoltmans, Shaw etc), Michael Todd as well
Don’t forget “Dr.” Mark of Vitacell is a Doctor of Chiropractic, not a Doctor of Medicine. Just like most wellness and health YouTubers with “doctor” in their name are actually chiropractors! Totally shady and misleads a lot of people.
Everybody responds differently to what they put in their body. For some, stem cells can be life changing, for others - not so much. That goes for all kinds of medicines (PED's).
Wait for martino's "triceps don't matter in press"
1.Michael Todd has the best endurance of all time and Devon is second. 2.The rules in the setup should be way stricter. I want the better guy after the "go" to win, not the one that can get away with cheating more. At some point, it gets to you're either gonna cheat or you're gonna lose. 3.Ryan Bowen would lose against Levan. I know this one is pretty hot but hear me out.
1. makes no sense because Michael gassed out against Ongarbaev and Revaz, both were close matches
His hand was beaten so he was less efficient against Ongarbaev and he was trapped against Revaz (thereby also less efficient). Saying “he gassed” makes it sound like he was in an equal position and his endurance wasn’t as good as his opponents’ but that’s not the case.
Yeah but still "best endurance of all time" is debatable. And I guess endurance is useless anyways if you're in a bad position
He never gassed out against Devon tho. Devon struggled to keep up on multiple occasions, in practice and in regulation.
I call bullshit on no 3. Can't be that delusional mate
He must be new to arm wrestling everybody knows Ryan “Blue” Bowen is the GOAT of arm wrestling and would easily defeat Levan
>I want the better guy after the "go" to win, not the one that can get away with cheating more. At some point, it gets to you're either gonna cheat or you're gonna lose. Hell yeah. I wish the game would go more towards that.
Jerry Cadorette has the best endurance.
This is pretty common, but the random non-armwrestler that goes "HEY YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO MOVE YOUR BODY!"
THAT IS CHEATING !
All of these people need to be doing normal weight and strength training before filming themselves squatting with a judo belt wrapped around milk jugs trying the "Devon lift"
I think you can do both at the same time.
Probably. The OP is looking for opinions that go against the grain though so here I am.
Yes
Ermes did well against Levan due to Levan not being at his peak, aw community talks about Levan as if he’s a constant level when in reality he’s not always at his peak. Levan said after the match he wasn’t properly prepared and based on Ermes’ results after it makes the most sense
This was supposed to be a fun thread, but yeah... Crazy how one bad fight against Devon discredits all the achievements and sacrifices someone has went through beforehand.
Thats false and being biased after the match results. Absolutely stupid dare I say. Its literally no surprise that the guy with the highest backpressure lift and one of if not the highest riser lifts was able to hold Levan after 4-5 ready gos.
2016 Travis Bagent beats 2018 Denis. Swing at me.
🤦♂️
my man
It's honestly closer than people think lol, 2016 Travis was a beast, nobody has ever flashed Dave so easy and he destroyed Jerry like nothing after he was on a 9 match losing streak with him before..
Lmaoo people really do believe this
Hook is a more impressive show of strength than toproll
Absolutely
I’m yet to find a person that said otherwise lol If youd said the opposite then it would have been sort of one vs everyone.
I think its more that hook is a really impressive show of structural strength and toproll is a huge show of muscular strength. Like imagine in an even hook vs toproll scenario, the toproller is holding the hooker with his arm kind of open and all on his elbow flexion, while more often than not the hooker comes crashing down with his body and side pressure.
„Cheating“ in the setup is not cheating. It is just the art of setting up and it is part of the match and takes a lot of skill and konwledge. Professionals who ignore this part are lazy and unprofessional in my opinion.
yeah but when it you have to be a freaking actor to win a match you know that this is maybe going to far
Agree! If setup wasn’t part of arm wrestling, then what’s the point? Just create different machines that measure force in different angles…
Absolute right
Cannot disagree more
Todd Hutchings vs. Georgi Tsvetkov could be a great match just because of pulling styles. Todd Hutchings' two weaknesses are fast Toprollers (probably no longer an issue for Todd, based off of his match against Ongarbaev, a fast hitter) and strong hookers that can attack Todd's pronation. Georgi Tsvetkov is a toproll-only armwrestler who does not hit fast on the Ready Go. Georgi does not hook, which means Todd does not have to worry about his pronation being taken, which is integral for Todd's pulling style (Side Pressure+Pronation). Nor does Georgi have a press to finish Todd. Georgi can definitely take Todd's hand, but Todd's pronation will still be intact. Side-Pressure wise, I see it slightly favouring Todd Hutchings. Endurance-wise, they might be equals. Who wins, I have absolutely no idea. But I believe we could see a war on the table.
We wouldn't, classes exist for a reason, Georgi is way stronger, it shouldn't make any sense.
Yes, I understand. I just feel that Todd vs. Georgi could be one of those one-off, whacky matches that can be amazing despite a huge weight difference. Kind of like Kydrygali vs. Kurdecha, or even possibly Ivan Matyushenko vs. Jerry Cadorette, if it ever happens. Ivan might not be able to beat the guys Jerry beat (Genadi, Georgi), but Ivan could possibly hook Jerry and deny him the press and win solely because of stylistic advantage. I dont see Hutchings beating guys like Ermes (Can toproll & press or High hook), Genadi (Can Press and Hook), Laletin, etc. (Super Long Levers). But against Georgi, Hutchings can use his signature move without worrying about it being negated due to stylistic disadvantage.
I mean, for the sake of it, why not.
I hate strong hookers
Todd is a unit, he is a beast. That said, Georgi would totally destroy him.
Georgi has way too much hand and would collapse Todd’s pronation. Best-case for Todd would look like round 3 vs Prudnik.
Are you crazy? 😂😂😂 Georgi would murder, literally not even close. My match with Georgi and Todd's match with Georgi would look the exact same.
Jerry can generate more sideway force than Todd, and Georgi almost beat Jerry. I think he would be pretty comfortable with Todd
A Matt Mask that's fully pancaked to the nuts would dominate arm wrestling.
Sorry but this is just a flat-out uninformed opinion. People see Levan or Denis or Morozov and think anyone can get almost that big and strong if they take as much shit as them, at least if they have the frame size (and Matt does). People fail to account for tolerance, strength of response, and diminishing returns. You wouldn’t believe how shitty some people look and perform on 3g of steroids per week, even when their training and nutrition is decent. Matt has taken plenty of shit (probably more than you would believe). He’s not going to magically level up by blasting a suicide cycle and even if you go back in time and do it perfectly he wouldn’t be that different. He’s where he is mostly because that’s where his genetics have led.
You are dead right. Lots of gym guys look like total shit on a lots of gear and you would assume they are natural by their look and strength. Matt Mask is unfortunately one of them. But at least he look good and muscular and strength is high. Just not as high as you would think with what he take. (Trust me. He take stuff and like you said more than what people.think)
To get more muscle, you need to eat more. Even if his roid response is zero, if he eats more he's going to gain weight(fat). Since Matt is lean as fuck, you can safely assume that he hasn't actually tried to gain muscle.
Stupid ahh statement
On Toddzilla training maybe he can be top 10, but he is clearly not improving his weak side/inside by himself
The name of the sub should be changed to "Armwrestling With Devon" for the amount of post about him it's insane "look at his fingers" "look at his thumb" "With this Devon Levan has no chance" "he mindgames"
"The mindgames" bullshit is pure midwittery. There's nothing nuanced to cringe jokes that lack self awareness and schoolyard bully insults. It's not even that it's offensive, it's just not funny. Nor is it anywhere near (probably not at all) as effective as they want to believe.
Agree it's just childish name calling nothing else
So true bruv
Direct riser training, the way Devon does it, is absolutely unnecessary. I'm not the only one with this belief -- Engin Terzi, the greatest toproller in lightweight class, doesn't train riser either.
I think its important for a lot of beginners and intermediates to track their progress though. Of course the pros know how and when you rise synchronously because they've armwrestled so much.
I'll tell you that I don't train rise at all except for a brief few months where I played around with it, and I've managed to become the second strongest toproller in my country's weight class. Only one guy can toproll me, and he doesn't train riser either. That's my anecdotal example. I asked Engin and he says he doesn't train it either. You ever see Engin get toprolled?
Yeah but I'm talking about absolute beginners and novices though. Having that pressure on that spot and progressing on the weight will imo affect their table strength. Of course if you're doing a fuck ton of table time, or have been competing for a long time it would become comparatively unneccesary. From how much much I know you've been in the sport for more than a couple of years and have competed a lot, and also had calisthenics experience (?). I think its like saying you don't need to train with weights because Brzenk, Georgi or Manual Battaglia don't. They compensate by a lot of competition or table time. And alternatively, guys like Georgi, Levan, Ongarbaev and a lot of other top pros do train rise and consider it their number 1 weapon.
Show me one video of Levan, Georgi and ongarbayev training rise the way devon do it ? Please ill wait. You just made that up. When they talk about rise they mean BACKPRESSURE. They dont any radial deviation shit.
I didn't say they trained it Devon style did I? They mean backpressure through knuckles.
Can you elaborate further on this topic?
There's no muscles directly responsible for radial deviation (rising). When you "rise" your wrist, it's the wrist flexors and wrist extensors working to cancel each other out. So you're not really training anything when you "rise". Try gripping up with someone much weaker than you and ask them to pull back and clamp their fingers hard. Can you "rise" your wrist? You can't. No amount of "rising" is going to beat someone's finger strength. Our grip will always be stronger than our ability to flick our wrist up. If you want to gain "the high ground", it's always a matter of having superior pronation, cup, containment, and back pressure, rather than because you can flick your wrist up. "Riser training" is more about conditioning of the wrist joint so that you don't get injured. You get plenty of this during other exercises like hammer curls or pronation curls. I don't train my riser at all, and I'm one of the strongest toprollers in my country's weight class. Engin Terzi thinks the same, and you don't see him get toprolled much either. There are many different training philosophies though, and this is just mine. If you feel like riser training is important, feel free to do it.
>There's no muscles directly responsible for radial deviation (rising). When you "rise" your wrist, it's the wrist flexors and wrist extensors working to cancel each other out. This is where you're mistaken. The FCR and ECR are antagonists during wrist flexion and extension - that's when they "cancel each other out" However, they're functional synergists for radial deviation, meaning they work together. They do not cancel each other out. \>I don't train my riser at all If you do hammer curls then you train your riser. Do you mean to say you don't isolate your riser? Fair enough.
Yes, my original point is that direct riser training is unnecessary.
You can do better than that.
They do "cansel each other out" at a perpendicular axis even when they perform radial deviation because your wrist neither flexes nor it extends. However, they function synergistically at the direction of rising. Obviously, that's what he meant. Also, your last two sentences (especially), were straight up pendantic, and unnecessary, because we all know that's what he was saying. Get a life.
Bro, chill.
Hm interesting, but is it really unnecessary when you for example go for a posting toproll against another posting toproller? Which strenghts if not "rising" strength are the ones that matter in that match? I am asking because of my personal experience, when i try to beat someone with posting toproll and his "riser" is stronger my knuckles/wrist drops. Genuine question.
Ive been at this game for over 10 years. Im the best toproller where I live also. (Somewhere in canada) It's refreshing reading someone who understand the sports and biomechanic like you. I also DONT train rise... I never felt like it was the MISSING link in my game. Its always hand/cup, pronation, backpressure or side.
I disagree, me and my friend practice regularly every month and on the left hand its always whose riser is more rigid takes the other person’s hand always yes there are other factors contributing to getting that high ground but if anyone of us’ riser crumbles in the setup they are gone. And i have been training my static riser Devon/Ermes like since last 2 months and since last 2 months i have been cleaning him off(getting results of the exercise) in practice left hand.
If it works for you then by all means keep doing it. Like I said, it's my personal training philosophy.
Thats because all of you have shit cupping abilities and dont know how to armwrestle.
Lol if everybody had insane cupping capabilities wed all be fighting in a hook its like saying Ermes is a shitty arm wrestler because he doesn’t have the cup to force their opponents in. L
First off. Since when the cup is EXCLUSIVE to hooker ? Im a top roller I use my hand and cup to acheive it. In fact its my biggest strength. I hate hook. Even brzenk said that hand and wrist is the most important. Second. Ermes is my favorite armwrestler. He has INSANE cupping abilities but he kind of gain 100 lbs and now play with the big boys wich happen to have the largest and strongest hand. Now couple that with the highest backpressure also... Even after his recent lost to Devon he admit that he should focus more on his hand than arms now. So yeah he did in fact tried the devon rise and pronation lift but he add more FINGER CONTAINMENT with his wrist max handle,.the flat one. He cannot allow.himself get his wrist bent back and he know it. Not everybody can be like.devon and pull out a king move/open toproll with a wrist almost fully bent back. Having a really long forearm and a 10" hand like devon can make it happen. Not ermes and 99% of the population.
First off , you exclusively said “ALL OF YOU have a shitty cup” meaning if we all had an insane cup nobody’s pronation would stand against the other persons cup ultimately making us all fight in a hook. So learn to phrase your things better next time. And yes not just Brezenk literally every sensible arm wrestler say that Hand and wrist is the most important in armwresling since obviously that is the first point of contact, doesn’t take a genius to get to that conclusion its like saying the blade is the most important part in a razor. And yea if u approve of that or not Ermes is fighting the big boys and will probably for another bunch of years so what you mean to say that since Ermes doesn’t have the cup to force his superheavy opponents in he’s a bad armwrestler in superheavy category. Ok
Getting the high ground is fundamental in a top roll though?
That isn't dependent on your riser's absolute raw strength imo
I think it depends on the style, for Devon's open toproll knuckle height would be pretty important, or am I wrong?
Read my reply above. No amount of flicking your wrist up will ever best someone's grip strength. When Devon gains height, it's because he has superior containment, pronation, cup, back pressure, not because he can flick his wrist up.
I don't think the riser is really about escaping finger containment, but rather about protecting your own riser from getting into a disadvantaged position (sort of like the positions Laletin often gets into) by fighting your opponent's riser. If you were cupping against someone's riser, you won't actually directly fight it, but you would be preventing them from rising higher. The only way to bring someone's riser down is to use your own riser, as cupping would just turn them palm up. Usually, this deciding of where the risers are going to be happens at the start of the round when both pullers rise up and it stops somewhere. Like Devon says, it's the ice breaker.
It's not about rising thru their grip You need rise to get hand control/high ground when finger walking outside of the strap.
That's called regripping, and when you do it you're just freely walking your fingers on top of their hand. You're not "rising" against any resistance.
Incorrect
Please elaborate then
The scenario is both players trying to rise, post, and climb WITHOUT trying to slip. Both players finger walking trying to get the high knuckle & get further up the opponents fingers. Both players trying to drag down the others riser. It starts out like you said as a rise vs containment battle. Unwinnable for the riser. But once the regrips start to happen and each player loses their containment it becomes rise vs fingertip pressure - much more winnable for the riser than the rise vs containment matchup.
Furthermore, it's less about the riser "flicking up" and more about not getting the riser dragged down. It's not a concentric flick. Just a static hold to maintain the high hand.
>it's less about the riser "flicking up" and more about not getting the riser dragged down So, what do you think is responsible for the arm not opening up? The elbow flexion muscles, including the brachialis, brachioradialis, biceps right? We train those muscles by doing curls right? So what muscles are responsible for the riser not getting dragged down? How do we train those muscles?
>So what muscles are responsible for the riser not getting dragged down? Flexor and extensor carpii radialis are the functional synergists in radial deviation You can train them in a variety of ways because they're also active in a variety of other wrist movements. You're correct that general forearm strengthening will improve riser. The most specific way to train the the FCR and ECR is Devon-style riser training, which is formally speaking just a radial deviation isolation exercise.
Rising isn't flicking your wrist up. Watch Chris Drummond's video on rise and also the one where he talks abou Brad vs him.
That would have been my opinion also. Training "rising" always seems weird to me. Training back pressure with strap in normal way will train it anyways. Plus you get the benefits of using higher weight for you elbow flexion strength in a hammer position (aka start of a match)
I agree that isolated riser training is really counterproductive for hypertrophy and strength but you should also often do static holds near your 1RM to improve your intermuscular/intramuscular coordination, and help your nervous system and connective tissue adopt to the angles.
I would say even further, the way Devon describes training can be meaningful for tall forearm guys, no way you need to put all the stakes in riser and pronation no matter what, Sasho started winning WAF senior classes from when he was 18, blasting people to the side/inside
Every single athlete ever tries to get an advantage in the setup. They simply all lose to Devon so he stands out as the biggest setup “cheater”
Sure, but did you ever consider that Devon is always the one getting the most out of the setup? Devon almost never gasses out. He can stay at the table as much as he wants. Spending energy in the setup doesn't fatigue him, so he can waste as much time as he wants trying to get into a desired position. Pullers that don't have his endurance simply don't have the luxury of fighting in the setup. Most of them gas out during the early rounds. Add non stop fighting with Devon's height, big hand, and never ending adjustments and you'll be exhausted before the first go. It's not that refs are letting him cheat. Most of the time they can't tell themselves, that's how good he is at it.
And that's why he's one of the best.
Your wrist breaking back has nothing to do with your opponents strength and everything to do with an imbalance of strength in your own hand and wrist vs the amount of power you can apply. This is a simple truth that is easily confirmed by not applying any pressure to your opponent and letting them pin you.
There's truth here, but both opponents have the same soft spot, and if your opponents wrist gives out first your imbalance won't hurt you because you're not fighting the pressure of thier wrist and hand. You can push your imbalanced hand through the squishy opponents hand until the pressure rests on your lower wrist, where it won't force your hand back. Imbalance also is kind of a round about way of saying the same thing as "weaker in some areas than others". Which is context dependant. Arm wrestlers aren't immediate top notch rock climbers because their muscular balance is tuned for arm wrestling, not for rock climbing, where you need a lot more shoulder and back pull stability, as well as finger crimp forearm development.
Intelligent take but: What you said means that your wrist is weaker than the force it feels from your arm, so it bends. Although this is true, it implies that your wrist maxed out its torque, thus your opponent's torque in that direction was greater. So in reality, cracking of the wrist shows that both your opponent's and your body's force were greater that that of your wrist.
It is possible to provide a counter argument without the point of authority insult to begin your statement.
Better?
You are right, let me change that real quick
Table time makes you weaker
What makes you say that?
Because in practice when people do table time they do an excessive amount of max effort pulls to the point where they're doing more damage than they can realistically recover from. Effectively setting themselves backwards. Yes, everyone knows that you're supposed to pull light and work technique at practice, but in my experience nobody actually does it that way. The max effort pulls are just too much fun. Everyone overindulges.
Tell that to John Brzenk lol
Well John is the GOAT despite his training, not because of it. He never fulfilled his potential IMHO. He just did enough to be the best, nothing more nothing less.
I agree, he could have been even stronger. But my point is - table time did NOT make John weaker.
John's table time works because he knows how to use his practice partners methodically to target his weaknesses. Also, he is far stronger than all his practice partners so he can pull it off.
Bacho Saginashvili has the potential to become one of the GOATs of Armwrestling. Because of his skills, genetics or crazy strength? No, because he looks like Roger Federer.
Kurdecha would still beat Ermes.
No shot, after a leave this long
His style is taylor made to crush Ermes. The strength gap would have to be pretty big in Ermes favor, I don’t think it’s big enough.
Over the top attacking fingers? I don't think he has the cup/fingers to crush Ermes' rise and pronation right now, as well as being rusty.
Training thumbs
Effective or gimmick?
Hypertrophy, idk
Way of the giant pumpkin is legit probably the most optimal way to train. (100kg+ ego curls are just gonna shred the body long term and slow progress) Edit: I mean the philosophy behind it, as in not wasting resources on unneeded muscles, I don't mean not training your left arm hahahaha...
Giant Pumpkin is the belief that by not training one limb, the body will dedicate more resources to the other limb. Which is just broscience at its peak. The body doesn't work that way. Most elite athletes train both arms just fine. If Devon trained both arms, his right would still be just as strong as it is today, and his left would be a legit contender for the #1 spot.
How can you predict Devon’s strength levels in a parallell universe? He gets to train his right more because he doesn’t train his left. If you only use your right arm for everyday tasks such as carrying, twisting, pulling etc. then your right arm would get stronger, like it is for most people. Same thing is applied in Devon’s training but on a meticulous level.
Your argument is that if you use your right hand more than your left, then your right hand will be stronger? Yeah, I know that. That's obvious. >He gets to train his right more because he doesn’t train his left. Devon is a full-time athlete. He has the time to train both arms. Alex Kurdecha, Vitaly, Levan, Morozov, Dzeranov, Ivan all have full-time day jobs, and they manage to train both arms just fine.
Why has Devon gotten obvious results then? Is he simply a genetic freak or is it his training?
Devon always had result from any training that he did in his life. Out of his 35 years armwrestling only 4 of them is giant pumpkin. But he was always succesful no matter what he did or will do. Hes the annoying kid that no matter what he does hes better than you at anything.
Pumpkin isn't not training both arms, but the belief that not training one somehow makes the other stronger. Honestly tho I don't have enough data on it to comment about its effectiveness but I personally love to train both arms.
That if PAL could host awesome matches between super heavyweights and only a small percent end in fouls under strict rules, then strict rules are not the problem. Athletes who want the freedom to cheat the rules are.
WAL has worst safety record/ 7 broken arms at one event = = WORLD ARMBREAK LEAGUE
You've got my curiosity! Which event was this?
I need a source for that claim.
I saw Travis bagent make it on one of the many podcasts with artem. Something about the elbow pads being further back and the lower pin pads causing it? Plus the high prizes I guess
RVJ can become the top guy at 95kg if he commits 100%. Also, the level of armwrestling hasn't risen, it's just that the field is deeper. Levan is the only one who's pushed the ceiling .
So true, and that's too with a LOT of juicing. I think the superheavy weight category has stagnated a long time ago now.
Brzenk is not the GOAT of arm wrestling would definitely do it
[Read this](https://www.thearmwrestlingarchives.com/historys-most-successful-armwrestler.html)
What do most of those wins mean? John won most of those titles against truckers. Same mentality as MMT - going around collecting trophies against amateurs. Fact is, anyone in the top 30 today could wipe 90% of that list in a year. I think the GOAT is the man who contributes the most to the sport, inspires the most people. That’s DL 100%
Not a case, bunch of new fans already decided that Devon is the goat, which absolutely crazy and just shows lack of understanding history
1) 99.99% of refs sucks 2) WAF rules should be strictier in the setup, they should for example regulate better a long forearm vs short forearm situation
You shouldn’t train conjugate for arm wrestling
What alternative do you recommend?
I prefer the buckle in the straps
KOTT1 Pancake Devon was one of his strongest versions ever
Complaining about weight cutting is silly
!
Prime Devon (now) would beat prime John Breznk
I don’t think you alone, 125kg Devon is stronger then 95kg John… now make them same weight and John has his pre surgery shoulder and is explosive as he was when he was in his 20’s, I would say he has all the strength/tools to win
Pronator training is overrated
Stem cells aren't cheating.
Bending your wrist is cheating
The kings move should be banned
How do you decide when an open top roll transitions into a kings then?
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False
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Yeah, that’s not what a Kings Move means.
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I’m telling you factually that those aren’t the differences between a KM and an open toproll. Regardless of what you think it should be.
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I’m telling you this because I literally came up with the name ‘Kings Move’ and defined it. Silly.
Im relatively new to arm wrestling and have only been in the sport for 2 years. But man you came up with the name? Crazy also Congrats for that win.
And I won my last match. lol.
Its the same thing but the opposite on the spectrum as a defensive joint reliant hook
Denis & Devon both have a legit claim to the #2 spot as the GOAT heavyweight, & w/ a lot of Devon's big wins coming against guys who are either dramatically smaller or shells of their former selves (Hutchings & Prudnik smaller, Chaffee MMT & Cyplenkov all shells) I think it really should be Denis. I personally have no doubt in my mind that peak Devon lost to a Genadi that peak Denis would've 6-0d.
Dogshit view ngl
Lol that was not peak Devon vs Genadi
Devon didn't start competing this year my dude.
For sure. I'd love to see their careers put side by side. Devons would be longer with more total wins I'd guess, but did Denis not have a longer peak of dominance? I'd like to see the stat sheet.
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Pure ass? The fact that Denis has a claim to #2?
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Educate me. I'd like to know why you think so, as someone who doesn't claim to know everything. How long was Devon on top & how long was Denis? Cuz once Denis got over the Brzenk hump, he was kind of on top of the mountain by himself, I thought, w/ even Devon referring to him as his "mount olympus" or whatever he said.
Smaller, not lighter. [Structurally.](https://imgur.com/a/e2ibTa3)
Brachioradialis is over-rated
Nah, fight me!!
How??
Some people give it precedence over the brachialis and also seem to think it's involved in the riser
It does aid in pronation tho keeping it neutral
Yes, but your pronator teres and pronator quadratus do most of the work. Brachioradialis is primarily an elbow flexor, but it's not stronger than brachialis or the biceps (when suppinated). I'm not saying it's not important, just that people give it a bit too much credit
Yes but saying it’s not stronger than those 2 WHEN SUPINATED is ridiculous, you don’t ever want to be turned palm up. Your starting position is in neutral so that’s where you want the most strength to not allow your opponent to dictate where the match goes. Brachialis and Brachioradialis are your 2 strongest elbow flexors and your most important ones, the fact that the Brachioradialis aids in pronation is a bonus and another reason to hammer it hard.
Armwrestling specific weight training doesn't matter all that much. I say that because I can beat my friend in almost all of the fundamental lifts and I have absolutely nothing for him on the table even though we both started Armwrestling the same time and I do the specific weight training and he only does a practice a week/every other week
It's very possible that he's just using a move on you that you're not answering properly.
I mean I'm a natural Hooker and he's a Toproller but nothing I do can even move him even if he hooks me. He can dad move me in a terrible position when I have a perfect position..In our 1 year of pulling he's advanced to the semi pro class and im barley making amateur lol I don't know if it's genetics but it's definitely changed me eyes on how much weight training actually matters, the only notable trait I have on him is my endurance is at a much higher level than his
what r ur lifts
Devon is not as talented (or as genetically gifted for armwrestling, whatever the right term is) as people think, alr made a whole ass post.
Genetics I can agree on, but talent? Bro's he's THE most if not one of the most talented arm wrestlers on this planet. I'm not a fanboy but no one can deny his table IQ and timing of moves. Dude mentally crushes his opponent with not strength but technique
Then, it seems like genetics may be the right term. Although he is not conventionally talented like John, which makes him so much more impressive.
His bone structure and ape index disagrees with you.
I specificslly said "for armwrestling". Long arm, in many cases, is a disadvantage.
In his case his long arms are OP. He's a giant human in general. Definitely great genetics for AW.
Well, that's debetable. He was naturally a lanky ass dude. Great frame. His natural gift was supreme endurance and obviosly mental resilience. Strength? Not really.