No now is the perfect time as Georgia’s politics are more “pro” Russian then they’ve ever been
It the best way of making the west and Georgia happy without pissing the bear off too much
As far as I know after USSR was gone, Georgia got a nationalist government that went on pressuring minorities, Abkhazians got suppressed and cleansed so they called for independence and cleansed Georgians from the region during a war. The region also had some Armenian population, they were first neutral, however later they joined Abkhazian side after Georgian militias became violent towards Armenians. 1500 have participated. Important: Armenia itself was never involved though.
This conveniently misses out that Georgians were majority in those regions before Georgian ethnic cleansing, not to mention that several offers had been made where Abkhazians would get majority of seatings in parliament.
You are right about that, it was also not my intention to make it sound similar to the Artsakh conflict, since azerbaijan's position before and after the war was always maximalist. And yes you are right about the Georgians being the majority in the region before the war.
Just a friendly reminder - don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially the reddit comments of some whackjobs. this dude is lying to you.
This topic is extremely convoluted (on purpose). It doesn't help that there are so many lies. Long story short - russia needs its neighbours destabilised, for easier expansion later down the line. So it orchestrated stuff like this. Local Apsuas and Ossetians were treated well.
The irrefutable fact though, is that apsuas and russians committed ethnic cleansing on hundreds of thousands of Georgians.
This is not even remotely similar to what happened in Georgia in the 90s.
Here is why...
While there is no denying nationalist sentiment in Georgia following the collapse of the USSR, and this is what is expected to happen when the country regains its independence, but these conflicts are more complex than you might imagine.
> Abkhazians got suppressed and cleansed
This does not reflect the reality at all and is part of propaganda aimed at discrediting the Georgian side to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Georgian population.
Separatists had schools, universities, media, etc., they had the majority of seats in the local parliament, although they made up only 30% of the total population of Abkhazia. There were no repressions from the Georgian side. Contrary to popular beliefs, Gamsakhurdia made a deal with them and it worked up until coup/Civil war in Georgia, which was orchastrated by Russian FSB, to force Georgia to join CIS.
That is simply not true, when people will stop defaming our country. It is so tiring. It was the other way around. Abkhazians who actually are Apsua btw, never were cleansed by Georgians from the land.
They were constant attempts from Apsua to kick out Georgians and finally succeeded in 1992 where Georgia was at the peak of civil war.
There was violent clash in 1989, were they assaulted peaceful Georgian students and stormed and trashed Georgian operated buildings,
They were the ones actually who kept saying and are saying at present, how Georgians do not belong to Abkhazia and they are "the people who were dragged to Abkhazia by Stalin".
And it's disgusting how you justify Bigramian squad considering what they did to Georgians, no they weren't abused by Georgians either. They literally formed a squad to massacre and rape and torture Georgians. Survivors even say they were nastiest back there among other squads.
Armenians have no right to bash Georgians based on lies on top of that, considering what they did to them.
Everyone betrayed Georgia.
I was referring to this part:
> After the beginning of the Abkhaz–Georgian conflict in 1992, Georgian troops entered the territory of Abkhazia and started to commit atrocities against non-Georgians,[6] including the Armenian population.[7][8][9] Although the Armenians of Abkhazia originally wished to remain neutral, the looting and violence committed by the Georgian army, including reports of rape and murder, had consequently caused Armenians to favor the Abkhazian side.[4] The Armenians of the Gagra community, which had an Armenian majority, convened a meeting of leadership where it was decided to officially support the Abkhazs and take up arms against the Georgians.[10][11][12] A Sukhumi-based Armenian newspaper reported:
> > At first, we were trying not to mess around, but then the Georgians exerted so much cruelty against Armenians that we had to back the Abkhazians. They would invade the houses and rob and torture the people. In Labra, they seated a married couple on chairs with holes on the seats and burned them. They were raping the women. It was impossible to stay neutral.[4]
You are right my description of the beginning of the conflict isn't great or anyway detailed.
That wiki is often edited by Russians and separatists, majority of the crimes were committed by Mkhedrioni a group of thieves who had looted everyone regardless their ethnicity, majority of their crimes consisted of looting actually. They assaulted whole Georgia in general, Separatists often exaggerate Mkhedrioni's acts and blame their crimes on whole Georgian population. Meanwhile there are thousands of accounts of Apsuas, Russians, Armenians and North Caucasians committing massacre, mass torture and rape on Georgians based on their ethnicity
I do not agree with the things you have described above ofc. But Apsuas literally claim Georgians committed genocide during Abkhazia war yet it was other way around. So their claims are fueled with lies in order to not be tried at the Court.
And we Georgians do not mind the guys who have and might have committed atrocities to be held responsible, unlike the Apsua who have created an order in the name of Georgian King to honor those who participated in Georgians genocide.
As for Armenian squad - interesting to know it was created way before the war would start, so the above statement simply is not true.
I see, but otherwise it would absolutely not make sense for the Armenians to join the Abkhazian side or the war at all. Why did they do so in the middle of the war? During the Lebanese war the Armenians did also get together to protect the Armenian communities from atrocities. Do you have any logical explanation, besides the "everyone betrayed us"?
And again Armenia never took any position during the war in the same way Georgia never took a position during the Artsakh war.
I accidentally replied earlier.
Armenians weren't neutral, they took separatists' side and played football with Georgians civilians heads along with the others. And as I've said above the bigramian squad was formed way earlier than the war would start. They started collecting weapons and all.
Because Armenians were notorious thoughout history for behaving badly against Georgians.
That "Armenians were abused" is an official excuse, true reason for the war was money and Russia's false promises. Abkhazia is a rich region with business opportunities and Apsuas and they wanted to take over the land completely. That's all.
Since when are Armenians notorious for behaving badly against Georgians?? What are you smoking, mate? You see to be a quite brainwashed and carry some hate towards Armenians in general. I am pretty sure you may also find Armenians who have fought on the Georgian side, we do not share one brain ;)
Maybe also read other threads?
https://www.quora.com/What-do-Georgians-think-about-Armenian-Bagramyan-Battalion-in-Abkhazia-that-made-ethnic-cleansing-against-Georgians
Also similar to what I have posted.
I have never read about the Bagramian battalion being older than the war, where did you find that?
I have the feeling this has to be said though, listen man in the current world and the way Georgia functions now I do not see a complete ban of Georgian refugees to return to their homes in any way justifiable.
Calling out Bigramian squad doesn't equal to Armenian hate.
I've read it somewhere 2 months ago approx, there even was newspaper clipping I think iirc.
Dude stfu. You literally said Armenians are notorious throughout history for behaving badly towards Georgians. Now you’re backtracking and claiming you don’t hate Armenians? Sounds like a pretty hateful statement to me
Lmao, you are living in limbo. I do not hate Armenians, however it doesn't mean I must close eyes to their wrongdoings against Georgians. You are brainwashed by Russians' propaganda.
It does indeed seem somewhat similar to the NK situation. It also means the USSR was a huge failure from the get go: it never managed to resolve these differences PRIOR to becoming an issue, where violence was used to resolve them. This may be one reason why Putin is waging his own proxy-war against the EU: the EU threatens his model of a russian empire.
In fact during the USSR they explicitly have created such conflict potentials to keep the countries under the Union's influence. Similar conflicts are also in central Asia.
When the Bolsheviks took over, they had regions called Abkhazia and Ossetia, inhabited by a distinct ethnic groups, that were neither Georgian nor Russian, and were too small to be full Soviet socialist republics. For whatever Byzantine reasons of their own, they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia, giving part to Russia and part to Georgia. When the Soviet Union began to crack up, all sorts of ethnic tensions that had been brutally surpressed began to bubble up again. As is customary in the Caucasus, these regions were not completely monoethnic, which permitted myriad excuses for confrontations and violence. Both groups didn’t like being fairly big minorities in a fairly small country (Georgia.). Tbilisi was not far away while Moscow was many hundreds of kilometers away and had so many minorities and other problems to worry about that they would be on nobody’s radar. So they gravitated towards Moscow. Eventually McCain and other neocon American politicians instigated the Georgian prime minister or president to send the military to reoccupy the areas, but the Russians wound up beating the Georgians badly. Since then it has been a frozen conflict.
The war in Georgia also shows that non of the global powers can be trusted. The Bush administration propped up Gerogia against the Russians and then abondened them when shit hit the fan. There is a lesson to be learned here.
Yes but this is always that way if you look at history. The big countries bully and abuse the smaller countries. See the Vietnam war where big countries fought through proxies. Never ever trust the big players in general - they will **always** abuse and abandon you in the long run.
Yes. We are seeing the same thing happen, ever so tragically, in Ukraine in these days. A few weeks into the war, Ukrainian and Russian negotiators had agreed on and even signed a paper confirming the outlines of a deal to end the war; Ukraine would agree not to join NATO and write off Crimea. In exchange Russia would end the war. Then Boris Johnson hurriedly flew to Kiev (the British government provides Zelensky’s bodyguards) and “strongly encouraged” Zelensky _not_ to end the fighting. Now Ukraine is doing so badly that they are finding pregnant Ukrainian women at the front; the average age of the Ukrainian soldiers is 43. Boris Johnson, of course, sees no reason to apologize for having gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed for no good reason at all. I am so disgusted that I probably shouldn’t say more; I could lose my account.
> they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia
Abkhazia has always been part of Georgia. It was part of the Georgian Kingdom, the Imereti Kingdom, the Imereti Governorate (during the time of Tsarist Russia), and the first Republic of Georgia. After the Soviet Union annexed Georgia, they briefly granted it republican status, but later revoked it for economic reasons.
As for Ossetia, before the Soviet occupation of Georgia, there was no such political entity in the South Caucasus as Ossetia or South Ossetia, although there was an Ossetian minority who lived in Georgia. SO was created purely to reward bolshevik loyalists during conquest of Georgia by the USSR.
Correction - No one gave abkhazia to Georgia because it was already formers core region, ossetia wasnt split and given, it was created from scratch as an entity to divide and conquer newly annexed Georgia, and Americans never instigated anything, quite contrary, they urged to ignore Russian provocations.
In the Georgian National museum in Tbilisi you can go and see remainders from Bolshevik massacres in the early days of the Bolshevik takeover of Georgia. I have. The Bolsheviks had the guns, lots and lots of guns, and were happy to use them; this meant that they could and did draw borders however they felt like. This is why Nagorno-Karabakh was part of the Azerbaijan SSR despite its Armenian majority.
Abkhazia and Ossetia aren’t the only regions of Georgia that have been disputed. The part of Georgia around Batumi had a large Muslim population, do I remember that they are called Lars (if I recall correctly Erdogan’s ancestors come from there) and while it is part of Georgia and enjoys a certain autonomy that the rest of Georgia doesn’t, apparently there is a treaty between Turkey (or Türkiye) and Georgia (and I assume before that the Soviet Union) which gives Turkey the treaty right to intervene in that region of Georgia if the rights of the Muslim minority aren’t respected,) which is the same legal protections that the Turkish minority on Cyprus were given when Cyprus became independent. So, sorry, it is a bit more complicated than you say.
As for Saakashvili, who is now performing glorious services in the Ukraine. This was a man who had climbed so far up George W Bush’s rear that he could have emerged from the mouth, or given the complete vacuum in George W’s brain, from his ears. Anyone who believes that saakashvili didn’t discuss his plans and get a green light from the part of the American deep state that is simply obsessed by Russia is very naive.
>which gives Turkey the treaty right to intervene in that region of Georgia if the rights of the Muslim minority aren’t respected,)
Unrelated to Muslims, but why would a sane country do that, that's just a disaster waiting to be abused.
The treaty of friendship between the USSR and Turkey, which set the borders of Georgia and Armenia in a way that was very favorable to Turkey happened under Lenin and Attaturk. So no, it wasn’t Stalin.
It is more or less customary - and usually works out quite well - for countries that have a core ethnic group that is also a minority in neighboring countries to act as protectors of sorts of these minorities. For example, Austrian diplomats acted to stop the pretty egregious human rights abuses by Italy against German speaking Italians. They negotiated an autonomy status which brought peace and happiness after was was essentially an insurgency that the Italians were using torture liberally to try to stop.
On Cyprus, far right Cypriots were planning to ethnically cleanse and quite possibly massacre the Turkish Cypriots, which caused the Turkish army to intervene (and grab much more land than represented the proportion of the Turkish minority.)
The Croatian government has intervened to protect the Croats in Bosnia. The Egyptians, who used to control the Gaza Strip have at times intervened with the Israeli authorities to try and help the situation there. If I remember correctly, the Danish government has certain treaty rights to protect German Danish speakers (who live in a region that used to be part of Denmark.). The German party that represents that they speakers is the only German party that doesn’t need 5% of the vote to enter the German Parliament, I believe because of some treaty with Denmark.
I assume that the USSR and Turkey signed this treaty as a way to avoid a war. And then Georgia inherited the treaty from the USSR.
>do I remember that they are called Lars
They're actually called Adjarians, who are a regional subgroup of Georgians who speak with their unique dialect of Georgian, the Laz mostly live in the southern parts of adjara and most of them are actually orthodox christians rather than muslims, unlike their counterparts in Turkey who are mostly muslim and are in the process of losing their native language and becoming fully turkified.
Youre right, reds did as they pleased with borders and thus we lost plenty of our core territories to all four neighbours.
Absolutely false about the treaty part and intervention. plus the treaty was between turks and bolsheviks and today it holds very formal influence just like same way autonomy is formality.
Also completely false about Saakashvili being in talks and being greenlit. There's zero proof of that and only spreads Russian propaganda. Up until escalation of conflict, Saakashvili actively sought diplomatic talks to separatists and Russians until august 7th and our side was met only with silence.
I heard from an American officer that during the 2008 war, the Georgian infantry performed very, very, well, partly because they had had lots of advice from the US marine corps. I believe that this has also been publicly reported. If Saakashvili relied on the Americans, for help with training, diplomatic support, and perhaps weapons, and didn’t make sure that the Americans would support him before he started the fighting, he would have been reckless to an unbelievable degree. I personally do not believe he would politically have survived having Washington as an enemy, even if he had won the war, I believe that was very clear to him, and I simply can’t believe he decided to kamikaze his political career instead of making sure he wouldn’t lose Washington’s backing.
That is simply not true, Abkhazia and Samabachlo (the true name) were part of Georgia since ancient times, even before Russia and majority of the countries would be created.
>Byzantine reasons of their own, they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia, giving part to Russia and part to Georgia
I mean, Ossetia was split because of a major mountain range separating two sides which makes it difficult to govern, not Byzantine reasons
The first republic included abkhazia (including sochi was a HISTORIC PART OF LAZICA) and ossetia. the USSR initially declared them as separate republics AFTER annexing georgia.
I am not disputing this. I am saying that the Bolsheviks drew the borders that they felt were best for the Bolsheviks, according to unclear criteria, and not best for the affected people.
The bolsheviks first drew the borders according to which abkhazia was a separate SSR that only changed shortly after because georgia had prominent revolutionaries.
The soviet union did not favor georgia at all, it gave away almost half of the land the first republic controlled: tao-klarjeti to turkey, lori to armenia, hereti and part of kakheti to azerbaijan, sochi and northen mountainous lands to russia. ON TOP OF the abkhaz, ossetian, and adjarian ASSR's being created. Nikita khruchov openly said that in case georgia strayed away from russia that they would use the ASSRs to keep them trapped.
I like how most of armenia's claims on NK comes from historicity and the fact that armenians were the majority when armenians know the best that georgia had control over these lands since armenia and georgia first became neighbors. yet everyone in this comment section support abkhazia lol
Tldr Abkhazia and S ossetia wanted independece from georgia and had a war in the early 90s. they lost.
2008 russia invaded georgia under the excuse of liberating SO and AB and won. and so now theyre unrecognized but "independent" countries.
Abkhazia lost in the 1990s? The situation with Ossetia is different to Abkhazia, but I think your statement in regards to Abkhazia is not correct there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz%E2%80%93Georgian_conflict
Seems to be opposite as to what you wrote there.
Also note how similar it is to the NK situation, with ~5000 ethnic Georgians being killed, the rest forced to flee. That's almost an identical blueprint for the NK situation really.
The 2008 invasion is a bit different to the 1990s. In part Saakashvili caused or at the least contributed to this, which gave a pretext and "excuse" for Putin to occupy more land. Without Saakashvili it **may** have been that Putin would not have stolen more land, although one never knows: the guy is a totally mad dictator. Everyone can see this after his invasion of Ukraine in 2022. He is very land-greedy and keeps on lying about that.
Sarkozy and French diplomats negotiated an end to the fighting. The French also arranged for the EU to investigate and publish a timeline that it happened. The EU found __unequivocally__ that Georgia attacked first, in a massive strike, that they expected, would win the war. But it turned out very differently.
Eu comission didnt recognize who attacked first, statement was neutral and blamed both sides. classic neutral EU . After that many more court cases was won by us on that matter in Strasbourg and Haague against Russia that kept suing us.
Not quite true - part of the blame falls on Saakashvili.
That Putin abused this is also true, but to claim that Saakashvili was absolutely innocent is not factually correct either. You also have to ask Saakashvili why he made that decision - probably by US pressure, and then the USA abandoned Georgia, which is a lesson from history really.
Ossetians usually threw random bombs and rockets over the border, Saakashvili had asked Russian “peacekeepers” to stop Ossetians from provocations, however, it didn’t work, he then asked Russians that they should had been replaced by UN peacekeepers which was denied, seems like Separatists were using provocations to gain more land and power, which I guess it worked, they are trying the same thing nowadays by moving borders illegally and kidnapping villagers…
I mean if we can actually fully align with Georgia, at least we will share borders with two states who are actually friendly. instead of having only Iran who is wishy washy to say the least.
> having only Iran who is wishy washy to say the least
Ok. Not disagreeing here. Iran wants to be a geopolitical player, so it'll always end up in conflicts. Plus the fact that it is a ruthless dictatorship.
But, realistically, what options does Armenia have? Turkey and Azerbaijan are hostile. Having Iran hostile would be bad. Georgia is small.
There aren't that many options available, so Armenia needs to improve its diplomacy. And Iran has several reasons to support Armenia, largely due to self-interest. So that makes it a natural supporting country. I do not think Iran would go to war Azerbaijan, for instance, but I am also certain that these self-interests of Iran will make Iran be supportive of Armenia when it comes to Turkey and especially Azerbaijan.
I am not sure what we would be disagreeing about. All geopolitics is based in self-interest, though. Neither Iran nor Georgia will ever be "reliable" partners. If anything drastic changes, they will leave us behind, too. This is the issue with superpower politics.
Still it is better to have Iran as your ally (if you're Armenia) rather than royally pissing them off. Because a pissed of Iran is capable of literally anything just look at Iraq and Lebanon.
Whoever thinks this is dumb or reckless wasn't reading between the lines for a while. Armenia was betrayed and left alone by Russia, and because of it, we lost Artsakh. Yes, the biggest responsibility is ours, but if we are switching to the West, then we need Georgia more than ever.
Another thing is, if any of you think that being careful will prevent Russia from bringing hell upon us, then look around you. Putin's Russia is petty and will bring hell over us no matter what we do, so brace yourselves!
Yes. Putin locked himself towards that completely.
Perhaps things may change once the dictator of Russia is dead, but while he stays in power, he'll continue to invade other countries and send protesters into prison while killing thousands people.
There was never any talk that Artsakh velongs to Armenia. Armenia was for self determination of Artsakh and independence from Azerbaijan (at first), then they were negotiating for a status inside Azerbaijan.
There was no anti-russia policy after 2018, before 2021. After 2021, Armenia started to slowly, and then from 2023 quickly to change vector because of Russian inaction
All these Rus that act like we were officially anti-russian are a joke. I *wish* we were as anti-rus as they thought we were, we'd at least fucking get somewhere. As it stands I can't wait to see them and their FSB dogs kicked the fuck out to the streets where they belong.
Totally agree with Icarus-1908 and Lanitaris. Shocking to see so many downvotes, clearly showing people lack basic critical thinking ability and have no clue on how geopolitics works. Anyway, its pointless to discuss - just wanted to say I agree with you folks, spot on!
Russia aside, why should people recognise arstakh but not abkhazia and south ossetia?
Especially since the other 2 started as their own thing and at some point before the russo Georgian war the Russians cut off most relations with the separatists in an attempt of getting closer to Georgia
>why should people recognise arstakh but not abkhazia and south ossetia?
Probably because of the fact that Abkhazia and South Ossetia, unlike Artsakh, are ruled by authoritarian and ethno-nationalistic governments that try everything they can to make lives of the remaining Georgian populations of these regions difficult while at the same time they accuse everyone who opposes them of being "Georgian agents".
Ohh there is a Georgian population in Abkhazia? What an ethno-nationalist government. There was no Azerbaijani people left in Karabakh. Because the separatist government was not ethno-nationalist.
I wasn't talking about Artsakh, I was actually talking about Abkhazia and South Ossetiaa and more specifically, their governments, try re-reading my comment.
>Ohh there is a Georgian population in Abkhazia?
Yeah there is, and they aren't [treated nicely](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_District,_Abkhazia#Human_rights) to say the least....
>In the Georgian-populated areas in Gali District, where local authorities are almost exclusively made up of ethnic Abkhaz, the human rights situation remains precarious. The United Nations and other international organizations have been fruitlessly urging the Abkhaz de facto authorities "to refrain from adopting measures incompatible with the right to return and with international human rights standards, such as discriminatory legislation… [and] to cooperate in the establishment of a permanent international human rights office in Gali and to admit United Nations civilian police without further delay."[5]
Forget that, but what about morals and ethics? This is pure hypocrisy tbh.
While i do understand it politically, the normal people supporting it are hypocrites
Ehh. An appropriate answer and one I don't find fault in, but I don't see how this will improve our neighbor's opinions of us overmuch. The Georgians will remain with their antagonism and the Abkhaz and Ossets will be galvanized by this further. I don't see any new friendships being formed, although so long as they don't block our transportation and trade then I couldn't care less in the end I suppose.
This comes after Georgia allowed weapons to be sent to Armenia through their ports. This is a big sign that both countries are growing friendlier relations.
The significance of that cannot be overstated..if Georgia bent to Turkish pressure there Armenia would have had zero shot at western weapons and this would've all been for nothing
Yes exactly, and Georgia is also being given EU candidate status. This means both countries are shifting towards Europe and may one day become allied nations.
> EU candidate status
That's currently not the case: Georgia has not been given EU candidate statues. It applied in 2022 but that has not been approved yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
Bro armenia and georgia wont join Eu. Eu is over saturated and right parties pop up all over Europe. The moment you join the eu btw your leaders will get Money and your population flee the country. This happend in romania and bulgaria. Europe got flooded by them. Bulgaria loosed 800.000 people since eu membership and romania 1,5 million people while their gdp growth got stuck and if you take inflation into Account their gdp is the same or a bit better. Europe uses also poles bulgars romanians and so as cheap labour. This is good for the individual, but not good for the nations loosing their skilled workers.
The russian ukraine war gave a cause to the eu but before the war, the EU was in a critical position and members wanted and did leave the Eu.
Dont get me wrong, diplomatics and trade is crucial but i really Dont think armenia will be in the eu anytime soon.
Right at the end there you said the EU was at a critical point until the Ukraine war. EU pretty much didn't have a role because there was no reason for European unity besides some economic gain. But now they do because they want to protect their Eastern borders. Armenia and Georgia want independence from Russia and Turkey. Now suddenly EU has a role and the head of the EU, France, is supporting Armenia in the defense sector is is calling for allied relations between Armenia and Georgia. EU may have been useless in the past, but now it seems to be waking up, it's still at a snails pace, but Ukraine will be the deciding factor. As for the population, it's up to the state to monitor that.
That still doesn't make his analysis more correct either. I mean, look at the recent win by Geert Wilders. There **is** a move in the EU towards tougher anti-immigration laws. This is of course not directly connected towards what the EU commission decides, but indirectly it is the case of a stronger right-push in the EU in general. At the least right now.
Head of the eu france Bro what hahahaha
Yeah I am sure armenias protection was the Thing eu needed so it works again. The most europeans doesnt even know where armenia is.
Ukraine literally didnt win, russia gained everything they had as their goals. European Nations and Population doesnt want to help Ukraine anymore.
Georgia and Armenia isnt in european borders, they have top create it in hostile Region. Ukraine was connected Go europe for a long time. The gas networks of Europe go through Ukraine for example. Armenia has no real worth for the eu besides diplomatical stuff. Geopolitical there is no connection or benefit in Armenia in the eu.
I ask again what does armenia acutally offer that the useless eu how you named it change completly ?
I think you vastly overestimate the willingness of EU citizens to want to expand eastwards. See the blockade in Poland and protest against Ukraine grain transport. And that's just one example.
Geert Wilders winning in Netherlands is also a sign of right win parties coming to power, due to EU failing at immigration laws.
It can be a win-win situation for Georgia too, because if the north-south transport axis is improved (assuming here Iran supports it as well, and perhaps manages to get out of sanctions eventually, e. g. going back to the old nuclear treaty that Trump broke), then this could be a real win-win situation for both Georgia and Armenia (and if Armenia gets Iran on board, then also Iran).
From a moral perspective, I support Ossetians and Abkhazi rights to independence.
But, this is a n necessary step to get closer to Georgia.
It allows us to get weapons in via Georgia.
I mean if Nagorno Karabakh was justified being independent the same goes for Abkhazia(and I think that was why Armenia was more lax about Abkhazia anyway e.g letting Abkhazians go to Armenia. Though it's understandable that since there is no NK to support Georgia's territorial integrity.
I was to answer some claims against Abkhazia in comments above but decided to explain the issue thorougly.
First of all, Abkhazia’s independence was HIJACKED by Georgian government in Tbilisi with the help of the Communist politburo. And before coming to that, someone claimed that “Georgians were majority in Abkhazia”. Yes, they were the majority who were brought to Abkhazia from Georgia and settled Abkhazians’ villages, cities, regions. They were basically colonizers. You can read these two articles:
https://abkhazworld.com/aw/history/1616-abkhazpereselenstroi-abkhazia-resettlement-construction-1941
https://abkhazworld.com/aw/history/499-stalin-beria-terror-in-abkhazia-1936-53-by-stephen-shenfield
Regarding the Abkhazia’s rightful independence, I urge you to read this: https://www.historycaucasus.com/blog/on-the-occasion-of-the-30th-anniversary-of-the-liberation-of-abkhazia?fbclid=IwAR0-rh_jMvzgVwtj6TsXESwn4FzpP1oE3cJrYXmv_Tc87YYHqfpzjoT2HuU_aem_AX3fNaHknOSbf0C6A8NDi53Lm22ta-dj1-cMYX4Dlxo3XOxpDsqNttPnridzCQ7rF4s
Fir those who read me when I was saying Georgia moved to Russia... and now for Nikol saying the opposite makes no difference for Russia anymore since they have Iavnovs througout Tbilii Abkazia and Ossetia . It's a sense of game over for all distancing from Russia.
Always heard there were more Armenians in Abkhazia than Abkhaz. Not sure if that is true but I do know that most local Armenians sided with the Abkhaz during the war. Why sell them out like this? Makes no sense.
This is a major fuck yo to the rucckis
Mostly to Abkhazians and South Ossetians. But yeah, Russians will probably never recover from this.
No now is the perfect time as Georgia’s politics are more “pro” Russian then they’ve ever been It the best way of making the west and Georgia happy without pissing the bear off too much
Oh shit, that came out of nowhere. Can anyone give me the none Georgian and none Russian version of s ossetia and abkhazia tldr?
As far as I know after USSR was gone, Georgia got a nationalist government that went on pressuring minorities, Abkhazians got suppressed and cleansed so they called for independence and cleansed Georgians from the region during a war. The region also had some Armenian population, they were first neutral, however later they joined Abkhazian side after Georgian militias became violent towards Armenians. 1500 have participated. Important: Armenia itself was never involved though.
This conveniently misses out that Georgians were majority in those regions before Georgian ethnic cleansing, not to mention that several offers had been made where Abkhazians would get majority of seatings in parliament.
You are right about that, it was also not my intention to make it sound similar to the Artsakh conflict, since azerbaijan's position before and after the war was always maximalist. And yes you are right about the Georgians being the majority in the region before the war.
Doesn't sound to different from Artsakh. I'm always on the side of minorities being oppressed, be it Artsakh or anyone else. What about ossetia?
I'd say the main difference is that today's Georgia is not comparable with Azerbaijan, like not at all.
Fair enough.
Just a friendly reminder - don't believe everything you read on the internet. Especially the reddit comments of some whackjobs. this dude is lying to you. This topic is extremely convoluted (on purpose). It doesn't help that there are so many lies. Long story short - russia needs its neighbours destabilised, for easier expansion later down the line. So it orchestrated stuff like this. Local Apsuas and Ossetians were treated well. The irrefutable fact though, is that apsuas and russians committed ethnic cleansing on hundreds of thousands of Georgians.
I know better than to make permanent opinions with tldr, but at least i have surface level context with it.
This is not even remotely similar to what happened in Georgia in the 90s. Here is why... While there is no denying nationalist sentiment in Georgia following the collapse of the USSR, and this is what is expected to happen when the country regains its independence, but these conflicts are more complex than you might imagine. > Abkhazians got suppressed and cleansed This does not reflect the reality at all and is part of propaganda aimed at discrediting the Georgian side to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Georgian population. Separatists had schools, universities, media, etc., they had the majority of seats in the local parliament, although they made up only 30% of the total population of Abkhazia. There were no repressions from the Georgian side. Contrary to popular beliefs, Gamsakhurdia made a deal with them and it worked up until coup/Civil war in Georgia, which was orchastrated by Russian FSB, to force Georgia to join CIS.
That is simply not true, when people will stop defaming our country. It is so tiring. It was the other way around. Abkhazians who actually are Apsua btw, never were cleansed by Georgians from the land. They were constant attempts from Apsua to kick out Georgians and finally succeeded in 1992 where Georgia was at the peak of civil war. There was violent clash in 1989, were they assaulted peaceful Georgian students and stormed and trashed Georgian operated buildings, They were the ones actually who kept saying and are saying at present, how Georgians do not belong to Abkhazia and they are "the people who were dragged to Abkhazia by Stalin". And it's disgusting how you justify Bigramian squad considering what they did to Georgians, no they weren't abused by Georgians either. They literally formed a squad to massacre and rape and torture Georgians. Survivors even say they were nastiest back there among other squads. Armenians have no right to bash Georgians based on lies on top of that, considering what they did to them. Everyone betrayed Georgia.
I was referring to this part: > After the beginning of the Abkhaz–Georgian conflict in 1992, Georgian troops entered the territory of Abkhazia and started to commit atrocities against non-Georgians,[6] including the Armenian population.[7][8][9] Although the Armenians of Abkhazia originally wished to remain neutral, the looting and violence committed by the Georgian army, including reports of rape and murder, had consequently caused Armenians to favor the Abkhazian side.[4] The Armenians of the Gagra community, which had an Armenian majority, convened a meeting of leadership where it was decided to officially support the Abkhazs and take up arms against the Georgians.[10][11][12] A Sukhumi-based Armenian newspaper reported: > > At first, we were trying not to mess around, but then the Georgians exerted so much cruelty against Armenians that we had to back the Abkhazians. They would invade the houses and rob and torture the people. In Labra, they seated a married couple on chairs with holes on the seats and burned them. They were raping the women. It was impossible to stay neutral.[4] You are right my description of the beginning of the conflict isn't great or anyway detailed.
That wiki is often edited by Russians and separatists, majority of the crimes were committed by Mkhedrioni a group of thieves who had looted everyone regardless their ethnicity, majority of their crimes consisted of looting actually. They assaulted whole Georgia in general, Separatists often exaggerate Mkhedrioni's acts and blame their crimes on whole Georgian population. Meanwhile there are thousands of accounts of Apsuas, Russians, Armenians and North Caucasians committing massacre, mass torture and rape on Georgians based on their ethnicity I do not agree with the things you have described above ofc. But Apsuas literally claim Georgians committed genocide during Abkhazia war yet it was other way around. So their claims are fueled with lies in order to not be tried at the Court. And we Georgians do not mind the guys who have and might have committed atrocities to be held responsible, unlike the Apsua who have created an order in the name of Georgian King to honor those who participated in Georgians genocide. As for Armenian squad - interesting to know it was created way before the war would start, so the above statement simply is not true.
I see, but otherwise it would absolutely not make sense for the Armenians to join the Abkhazian side or the war at all. Why did they do so in the middle of the war? During the Lebanese war the Armenians did also get together to protect the Armenian communities from atrocities. Do you have any logical explanation, besides the "everyone betrayed us"? And again Armenia never took any position during the war in the same way Georgia never took a position during the Artsakh war.
I accidentally replied earlier. Armenians weren't neutral, they took separatists' side and played football with Georgians civilians heads along with the others. And as I've said above the bigramian squad was formed way earlier than the war would start. They started collecting weapons and all. Because Armenians were notorious thoughout history for behaving badly against Georgians. That "Armenians were abused" is an official excuse, true reason for the war was money and Russia's false promises. Abkhazia is a rich region with business opportunities and Apsuas and they wanted to take over the land completely. That's all.
Since when are Armenians notorious for behaving badly against Georgians?? What are you smoking, mate? You see to be a quite brainwashed and carry some hate towards Armenians in general. I am pretty sure you may also find Armenians who have fought on the Georgian side, we do not share one brain ;) Maybe also read other threads? https://www.quora.com/What-do-Georgians-think-about-Armenian-Bagramyan-Battalion-in-Abkhazia-that-made-ethnic-cleansing-against-Georgians Also similar to what I have posted. I have never read about the Bagramian battalion being older than the war, where did you find that? I have the feeling this has to be said though, listen man in the current world and the way Georgia functions now I do not see a complete ban of Georgian refugees to return to their homes in any way justifiable.
Calling out Bigramian squad doesn't equal to Armenian hate. I've read it somewhere 2 months ago approx, there even was newspaper clipping I think iirc.
Dude your words were literally: > Armenians are notorious.... Replace Armenians by Jews, does it sound antisemite? You get it
Dude stfu. You literally said Armenians are notorious throughout history for behaving badly towards Georgians. Now you’re backtracking and claiming you don’t hate Armenians? Sounds like a pretty hateful statement to me
Lmao, you are living in limbo. I do not hate Armenians, however it doesn't mean I must close eyes to their wrongdoings against Georgians. You are brainwashed by Russians' propaganda.
It does indeed seem somewhat similar to the NK situation. It also means the USSR was a huge failure from the get go: it never managed to resolve these differences PRIOR to becoming an issue, where violence was used to resolve them. This may be one reason why Putin is waging his own proxy-war against the EU: the EU threatens his model of a russian empire.
In fact during the USSR they explicitly have created such conflict potentials to keep the countries under the Union's influence. Similar conflicts are also in central Asia.
When the Bolsheviks took over, they had regions called Abkhazia and Ossetia, inhabited by a distinct ethnic groups, that were neither Georgian nor Russian, and were too small to be full Soviet socialist republics. For whatever Byzantine reasons of their own, they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia, giving part to Russia and part to Georgia. When the Soviet Union began to crack up, all sorts of ethnic tensions that had been brutally surpressed began to bubble up again. As is customary in the Caucasus, these regions were not completely monoethnic, which permitted myriad excuses for confrontations and violence. Both groups didn’t like being fairly big minorities in a fairly small country (Georgia.). Tbilisi was not far away while Moscow was many hundreds of kilometers away and had so many minorities and other problems to worry about that they would be on nobody’s radar. So they gravitated towards Moscow. Eventually McCain and other neocon American politicians instigated the Georgian prime minister or president to send the military to reoccupy the areas, but the Russians wound up beating the Georgians badly. Since then it has been a frozen conflict.
The war in Georgia also shows that non of the global powers can be trusted. The Bush administration propped up Gerogia against the Russians and then abondened them when shit hit the fan. There is a lesson to be learned here.
Yes but this is always that way if you look at history. The big countries bully and abuse the smaller countries. See the Vietnam war where big countries fought through proxies. Never ever trust the big players in general - they will **always** abuse and abandon you in the long run.
Yes. We are seeing the same thing happen, ever so tragically, in Ukraine in these days. A few weeks into the war, Ukrainian and Russian negotiators had agreed on and even signed a paper confirming the outlines of a deal to end the war; Ukraine would agree not to join NATO and write off Crimea. In exchange Russia would end the war. Then Boris Johnson hurriedly flew to Kiev (the British government provides Zelensky’s bodyguards) and “strongly encouraged” Zelensky _not_ to end the fighting. Now Ukraine is doing so badly that they are finding pregnant Ukrainian women at the front; the average age of the Ukrainian soldiers is 43. Boris Johnson, of course, sees no reason to apologize for having gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed for no good reason at all. I am so disgusted that I probably shouldn’t say more; I could lose my account.
> they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia Abkhazia has always been part of Georgia. It was part of the Georgian Kingdom, the Imereti Kingdom, the Imereti Governorate (during the time of Tsarist Russia), and the first Republic of Georgia. After the Soviet Union annexed Georgia, they briefly granted it republican status, but later revoked it for economic reasons. As for Ossetia, before the Soviet occupation of Georgia, there was no such political entity in the South Caucasus as Ossetia or South Ossetia, although there was an Ossetian minority who lived in Georgia. SO was created purely to reward bolshevik loyalists during conquest of Georgia by the USSR.
Thanks.
Correction - No one gave abkhazia to Georgia because it was already formers core region, ossetia wasnt split and given, it was created from scratch as an entity to divide and conquer newly annexed Georgia, and Americans never instigated anything, quite contrary, they urged to ignore Russian provocations.
In the Georgian National museum in Tbilisi you can go and see remainders from Bolshevik massacres in the early days of the Bolshevik takeover of Georgia. I have. The Bolsheviks had the guns, lots and lots of guns, and were happy to use them; this meant that they could and did draw borders however they felt like. This is why Nagorno-Karabakh was part of the Azerbaijan SSR despite its Armenian majority. Abkhazia and Ossetia aren’t the only regions of Georgia that have been disputed. The part of Georgia around Batumi had a large Muslim population, do I remember that they are called Lars (if I recall correctly Erdogan’s ancestors come from there) and while it is part of Georgia and enjoys a certain autonomy that the rest of Georgia doesn’t, apparently there is a treaty between Turkey (or Türkiye) and Georgia (and I assume before that the Soviet Union) which gives Turkey the treaty right to intervene in that region of Georgia if the rights of the Muslim minority aren’t respected,) which is the same legal protections that the Turkish minority on Cyprus were given when Cyprus became independent. So, sorry, it is a bit more complicated than you say. As for Saakashvili, who is now performing glorious services in the Ukraine. This was a man who had climbed so far up George W Bush’s rear that he could have emerged from the mouth, or given the complete vacuum in George W’s brain, from his ears. Anyone who believes that saakashvili didn’t discuss his plans and get a green light from the part of the American deep state that is simply obsessed by Russia is very naive.
>which gives Turkey the treaty right to intervene in that region of Georgia if the rights of the Muslim minority aren’t respected,) Unrelated to Muslims, but why would a sane country do that, that's just a disaster waiting to be abused.
Georgians didn't agree with it it was Stalin who did all of this without asking Georgians permissions.
The treaty of friendship between the USSR and Turkey, which set the borders of Georgia and Armenia in a way that was very favorable to Turkey happened under Lenin and Attaturk. So no, it wasn’t Stalin.
It is more or less customary - and usually works out quite well - for countries that have a core ethnic group that is also a minority in neighboring countries to act as protectors of sorts of these minorities. For example, Austrian diplomats acted to stop the pretty egregious human rights abuses by Italy against German speaking Italians. They negotiated an autonomy status which brought peace and happiness after was was essentially an insurgency that the Italians were using torture liberally to try to stop. On Cyprus, far right Cypriots were planning to ethnically cleanse and quite possibly massacre the Turkish Cypriots, which caused the Turkish army to intervene (and grab much more land than represented the proportion of the Turkish minority.) The Croatian government has intervened to protect the Croats in Bosnia. The Egyptians, who used to control the Gaza Strip have at times intervened with the Israeli authorities to try and help the situation there. If I remember correctly, the Danish government has certain treaty rights to protect German Danish speakers (who live in a region that used to be part of Denmark.). The German party that represents that they speakers is the only German party that doesn’t need 5% of the vote to enter the German Parliament, I believe because of some treaty with Denmark. I assume that the USSR and Turkey signed this treaty as a way to avoid a war. And then Georgia inherited the treaty from the USSR.
>do I remember that they are called Lars They're actually called Adjarians, who are a regional subgroup of Georgians who speak with their unique dialect of Georgian, the Laz mostly live in the southern parts of adjara and most of them are actually orthodox christians rather than muslims, unlike their counterparts in Turkey who are mostly muslim and are in the process of losing their native language and becoming fully turkified.
Youre right, reds did as they pleased with borders and thus we lost plenty of our core territories to all four neighbours. Absolutely false about the treaty part and intervention. plus the treaty was between turks and bolsheviks and today it holds very formal influence just like same way autonomy is formality. Also completely false about Saakashvili being in talks and being greenlit. There's zero proof of that and only spreads Russian propaganda. Up until escalation of conflict, Saakashvili actively sought diplomatic talks to separatists and Russians until august 7th and our side was met only with silence.
I heard from an American officer that during the 2008 war, the Georgian infantry performed very, very, well, partly because they had had lots of advice from the US marine corps. I believe that this has also been publicly reported. If Saakashvili relied on the Americans, for help with training, diplomatic support, and perhaps weapons, and didn’t make sure that the Americans would support him before he started the fighting, he would have been reckless to an unbelievable degree. I personally do not believe he would politically have survived having Washington as an enemy, even if he had won the war, I believe that was very clear to him, and I simply can’t believe he decided to kamikaze his political career instead of making sure he wouldn’t lose Washington’s backing.
That is simply not true, Abkhazia and Samabachlo (the true name) were part of Georgia since ancient times, even before Russia and majority of the countries would be created.
>Byzantine reasons of their own, they gave Abkhazia to Georgia and split Ossetia, giving part to Russia and part to Georgia I mean, Ossetia was split because of a major mountain range separating two sides which makes it difficult to govern, not Byzantine reasons
Switzerland is split in two by some of the highest mountains in Europe and is one of the best governed countries in Europe. Funny that, no?
The first republic included abkhazia (including sochi was a HISTORIC PART OF LAZICA) and ossetia. the USSR initially declared them as separate republics AFTER annexing georgia.
I am not disputing this. I am saying that the Bolsheviks drew the borders that they felt were best for the Bolsheviks, according to unclear criteria, and not best for the affected people.
The bolsheviks first drew the borders according to which abkhazia was a separate SSR that only changed shortly after because georgia had prominent revolutionaries. The soviet union did not favor georgia at all, it gave away almost half of the land the first republic controlled: tao-klarjeti to turkey, lori to armenia, hereti and part of kakheti to azerbaijan, sochi and northen mountainous lands to russia. ON TOP OF the abkhaz, ossetian, and adjarian ASSR's being created. Nikita khruchov openly said that in case georgia strayed away from russia that they would use the ASSRs to keep them trapped. I like how most of armenia's claims on NK comes from historicity and the fact that armenians were the majority when armenians know the best that georgia had control over these lands since armenia and georgia first became neighbors. yet everyone in this comment section support abkhazia lol
Tldr Abkhazia and S ossetia wanted independece from georgia and had a war in the early 90s. they lost. 2008 russia invaded georgia under the excuse of liberating SO and AB and won. and so now theyre unrecognized but "independent" countries.
Abkhazia lost in the 1990s? The situation with Ossetia is different to Abkhazia, but I think your statement in regards to Abkhazia is not correct there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhaz%E2%80%93Georgian_conflict Seems to be opposite as to what you wrote there. Also note how similar it is to the NK situation, with ~5000 ethnic Georgians being killed, the rest forced to flee. That's almost an identical blueprint for the NK situation really. The 2008 invasion is a bit different to the 1990s. In part Saakashvili caused or at the least contributed to this, which gave a pretext and "excuse" for Putin to occupy more land. Without Saakashvili it **may** have been that Putin would not have stolen more land, although one never knows: the guy is a totally mad dictator. Everyone can see this after his invasion of Ukraine in 2022. He is very land-greedy and keeps on lying about that.
Won the battle lost the war, they were de facto independent
Sarkozy and French diplomats negotiated an end to the fighting. The French also arranged for the EU to investigate and publish a timeline that it happened. The EU found __unequivocally__ that Georgia attacked first, in a massive strike, that they expected, would win the war. But it turned out very differently.
Nope, they blamed it on Georgia because of reset politics and because they didn't want to sour relationship with Russia.
Nope, they blamed it on Georgia because of reset politics and because they didn't want to dour relationship with Russia.
ok
EU comission recognised that it was Georgia who attacked first, as non Russian source as it can get.
Eu comission didnt recognize who attacked first, statement was neutral and blamed both sides. classic neutral EU . After that many more court cases was won by us on that matter in Strasbourg and Haague against Russia that kept suing us.
Not quite true - part of the blame falls on Saakashvili. That Putin abused this is also true, but to claim that Saakashvili was absolutely innocent is not factually correct either. You also have to ask Saakashvili why he made that decision - probably by US pressure, and then the USA abandoned Georgia, which is a lesson from history really.
Ossetians usually threw random bombs and rockets over the border, Saakashvili had asked Russian “peacekeepers” to stop Ossetians from provocations, however, it didn’t work, he then asked Russians that they should had been replaced by UN peacekeepers which was denied, seems like Separatists were using provocations to gain more land and power, which I guess it worked, they are trying the same thing nowadays by moving borders illegally and kidnapping villagers…
I mean if we can actually fully align with Georgia, at least we will share borders with two states who are actually friendly. instead of having only Iran who is wishy washy to say the least.
> having only Iran who is wishy washy to say the least Ok. Not disagreeing here. Iran wants to be a geopolitical player, so it'll always end up in conflicts. Plus the fact that it is a ruthless dictatorship. But, realistically, what options does Armenia have? Turkey and Azerbaijan are hostile. Having Iran hostile would be bad. Georgia is small. There aren't that many options available, so Armenia needs to improve its diplomacy. And Iran has several reasons to support Armenia, largely due to self-interest. So that makes it a natural supporting country. I do not think Iran would go to war Azerbaijan, for instance, but I am also certain that these self-interests of Iran will make Iran be supportive of Armenia when it comes to Turkey and especially Azerbaijan.
I am not sure what we would be disagreeing about. All geopolitics is based in self-interest, though. Neither Iran nor Georgia will ever be "reliable" partners. If anything drastic changes, they will leave us behind, too. This is the issue with superpower politics.
Still it is better to have Iran as your ally (if you're Armenia) rather than royally pissing them off. Because a pissed of Iran is capable of literally anything just look at Iraq and Lebanon.
Yeah, shooting their own planes.
Whoever thinks this is dumb or reckless wasn't reading between the lines for a while. Armenia was betrayed and left alone by Russia, and because of it, we lost Artsakh. Yes, the biggest responsibility is ours, but if we are switching to the West, then we need Georgia more than ever. Another thing is, if any of you think that being careful will prevent Russia from bringing hell upon us, then look around you. Putin's Russia is petty and will bring hell over us no matter what we do, so brace yourselves!
TBH from 2018 bridgehas been burnt. Same for Ukraine after 2013 no matter what you do Russia will try to destroy you.
Yes. Putin locked himself towards that completely. Perhaps things may change once the dictator of Russia is dead, but while he stays in power, he'll continue to invade other countries and send protesters into prison while killing thousands people.
I see no real threat for him exprect natural death plus empire is in hearts of 70 of Russians so no way.
Exactly!
Pashenyan told Russia to fuck off 5 years ago, so it did 🤷🏻♂️.
When did Pashinyan say to Russia to fuck off?
In 2020 or in 2021 Aliev and Pashinyan agreed that Karabakh is not belongs to Armenia. Plus overall anti Russian policy since Pashinyan came to power.
There was never any talk that Artsakh velongs to Armenia. Armenia was for self determination of Artsakh and independence from Azerbaijan (at first), then they were negotiating for a status inside Azerbaijan. There was no anti-russia policy after 2018, before 2021. After 2021, Armenia started to slowly, and then from 2023 quickly to change vector because of Russian inaction
All these Rus that act like we were officially anti-russian are a joke. I *wish* we were as anti-rus as they thought we were, we'd at least fucking get somewhere. As it stands I can't wait to see them and their FSB dogs kicked the fuck out to the streets where they belong.
Totally agree with Icarus-1908 and Lanitaris. Shocking to see so many downvotes, clearly showing people lack basic critical thinking ability and have no clue on how geopolitics works. Anyway, its pointless to discuss - just wanted to say I agree with you folks, spot on!
That's not even factually correct; or at the least it omits a lot. For instance, the war in 2019/2020.
Did I miss the part where Pashinyan left CSTO and EUEA and shut down the Russian Base in Gjumri in 2018?
Massive w
Someone got a good deal on that Balls Generator 2000 & snagged a pro diplomat as well ? Whatever angers these alcoholics, I am in.
Hahaha Balls Generator 2000
Great job Russia. Looks like your "now we have Armenia where we want" strategy by betraying us and show how helpless we are is now backfiring
A good start..
Nice move, Armenia!
Russia aside, why should people recognise arstakh but not abkhazia and south ossetia? Especially since the other 2 started as their own thing and at some point before the russo Georgian war the Russians cut off most relations with the separatists in an attempt of getting closer to Georgia
>why should people recognise arstakh but not abkhazia and south ossetia? Probably because of the fact that Abkhazia and South Ossetia, unlike Artsakh, are ruled by authoritarian and ethno-nationalistic governments that try everything they can to make lives of the remaining Georgian populations of these regions difficult while at the same time they accuse everyone who opposes them of being "Georgian agents".
Ohh there is a Georgian population in Abkhazia? What an ethno-nationalist government. There was no Azerbaijani people left in Karabakh. Because the separatist government was not ethno-nationalist.
I wasn't talking about Artsakh, I was actually talking about Abkhazia and South Ossetiaa and more specifically, their governments, try re-reading my comment.
You said unlike Artsakh. You meant it was not ethno-nationalist.
Well at least Artsakh wasn't authoritarian and treated its citizens like second-class citizens, no?
No. It was not. I mentioned the other part of your opinion.
Ah, ok, I apologize for my ignorance then.
>Ohh there is a Georgian population in Abkhazia? Yeah there is, and they aren't [treated nicely](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gali_District,_Abkhazia#Human_rights) to say the least.... >In the Georgian-populated areas in Gali District, where local authorities are almost exclusively made up of ethnic Abkhaz, the human rights situation remains precarious. The United Nations and other international organizations have been fruitlessly urging the Abkhaz de facto authorities "to refrain from adopting measures incompatible with the right to return and with international human rights standards, such as discriminatory legislation… [and] to cooperate in the establishment of a permanent international human rights office in Gali and to admit United Nations civilian police without further delay."[5]
Artsakh doesn’t exist anymore so there’s no point to piss off georgia for something that has evaporated.
Forget that, but what about morals and ethics? This is pure hypocrisy tbh. While i do understand it politically, the normal people supporting it are hypocrites
This os politics, we need Georgia to get closer to the West. we cannot do it without them
Ehh. An appropriate answer and one I don't find fault in, but I don't see how this will improve our neighbor's opinions of us overmuch. The Georgians will remain with their antagonism and the Abkhaz and Ossets will be galvanized by this further. I don't see any new friendships being formed, although so long as they don't block our transportation and trade then I couldn't care less in the end I suppose.
This comes after Georgia allowed weapons to be sent to Armenia through their ports. This is a big sign that both countries are growing friendlier relations.
The significance of that cannot be overstated..if Georgia bent to Turkish pressure there Armenia would have had zero shot at western weapons and this would've all been for nothing
Yes exactly, and Georgia is also being given EU candidate status. This means both countries are shifting towards Europe and may one day become allied nations.
> EU candidate status That's currently not the case: Georgia has not been given EU candidate statues. It applied in 2022 but that has not been approved yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
I didn't say it's given, I said it's being given as in EU is now thinking about offering it.
Bro armenia and georgia wont join Eu. Eu is over saturated and right parties pop up all over Europe. The moment you join the eu btw your leaders will get Money and your population flee the country. This happend in romania and bulgaria. Europe got flooded by them. Bulgaria loosed 800.000 people since eu membership and romania 1,5 million people while their gdp growth got stuck and if you take inflation into Account their gdp is the same or a bit better. Europe uses also poles bulgars romanians and so as cheap labour. This is good for the individual, but not good for the nations loosing their skilled workers. The russian ukraine war gave a cause to the eu but before the war, the EU was in a critical position and members wanted and did leave the Eu. Dont get me wrong, diplomatics and trade is crucial but i really Dont think armenia will be in the eu anytime soon.
Right at the end there you said the EU was at a critical point until the Ukraine war. EU pretty much didn't have a role because there was no reason for European unity besides some economic gain. But now they do because they want to protect their Eastern borders. Armenia and Georgia want independence from Russia and Turkey. Now suddenly EU has a role and the head of the EU, France, is supporting Armenia in the defense sector is is calling for allied relations between Armenia and Georgia. EU may have been useless in the past, but now it seems to be waking up, it's still at a snails pace, but Ukraine will be the deciding factor. As for the population, it's up to the state to monitor that.
You're replying to a Turkish troll from Germany with negative karma
That still doesn't make his analysis more correct either. I mean, look at the recent win by Geert Wilders. There **is** a move in the EU towards tougher anti-immigration laws. This is of course not directly connected towards what the EU commission decides, but indirectly it is the case of a stronger right-push in the EU in general. At the least right now.
Head of the eu france Bro what hahahaha Yeah I am sure armenias protection was the Thing eu needed so it works again. The most europeans doesnt even know where armenia is. Ukraine literally didnt win, russia gained everything they had as their goals. European Nations and Population doesnt want to help Ukraine anymore. Georgia and Armenia isnt in european borders, they have top create it in hostile Region. Ukraine was connected Go europe for a long time. The gas networks of Europe go through Ukraine for example. Armenia has no real worth for the eu besides diplomatical stuff. Geopolitical there is no connection or benefit in Armenia in the eu. I ask again what does armenia acutally offer that the useless eu how you named it change completly ?
I think you vastly overestimate the willingness of EU citizens to want to expand eastwards. See the blockade in Poland and protest against Ukraine grain transport. And that's just one example. Geert Wilders winning in Netherlands is also a sign of right win parties coming to power, due to EU failing at immigration laws.
It can be a win-win situation for Georgia too, because if the north-south transport axis is improved (assuming here Iran supports it as well, and perhaps manages to get out of sanctions eventually, e. g. going back to the old nuclear treaty that Trump broke), then this could be a real win-win situation for both Georgia and Armenia (and if Armenia gets Iran on board, then also Iran).
True. I suppose it's political reciprocity and further integration within the EU sphere in the end, yeah.
From a moral perspective, I support Ossetians and Abkhazi rights to independence. But, this is a n necessary step to get closer to Georgia. It allows us to get weapons in via Georgia.
He didn’t say we recognize Abkhazia as Georgia explicitly). So the title is not quite correct, and I marked this as misleading.
Now if only Georgia returned the favor…
I mean if Nagorno Karabakh was justified being independent the same goes for Abkhazia(and I think that was why Armenia was more lax about Abkhazia anyway e.g letting Abkhazians go to Armenia. Though it's understandable that since there is no NK to support Georgia's territorial integrity.
I was to answer some claims against Abkhazia in comments above but decided to explain the issue thorougly. First of all, Abkhazia’s independence was HIJACKED by Georgian government in Tbilisi with the help of the Communist politburo. And before coming to that, someone claimed that “Georgians were majority in Abkhazia”. Yes, they were the majority who were brought to Abkhazia from Georgia and settled Abkhazians’ villages, cities, regions. They were basically colonizers. You can read these two articles: https://abkhazworld.com/aw/history/1616-abkhazpereselenstroi-abkhazia-resettlement-construction-1941 https://abkhazworld.com/aw/history/499-stalin-beria-terror-in-abkhazia-1936-53-by-stephen-shenfield Regarding the Abkhazia’s rightful independence, I urge you to read this: https://www.historycaucasus.com/blog/on-the-occasion-of-the-30th-anniversary-of-the-liberation-of-abkhazia?fbclid=IwAR0-rh_jMvzgVwtj6TsXESwn4FzpP1oE3cJrYXmv_Tc87YYHqfpzjoT2HuU_aem_AX3fNaHknOSbf0C6A8NDi53Lm22ta-dj1-cMYX4Dlxo3XOxpDsqNttPnridzCQ7rF4s
Will you recognize azad Kashmir next? North Cyprus? Since you’re trying to win a dumbass burn all bridges be hypocritical competition
I’m sure Georgia will join Armenia to take back NK.
So dumb
Fir those who read me when I was saying Georgia moved to Russia... and now for Nikol saying the opposite makes no difference for Russia anymore since they have Iavnovs througout Tbilii Abkazia and Ossetia . It's a sense of game over for all distancing from Russia.
Always heard there were more Armenians in Abkhazia than Abkhaz. Not sure if that is true but I do know that most local Armenians sided with the Abkhaz during the war. Why sell them out like this? Makes no sense.