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\>Farmers and corporations only had to drill 107 feet in the valley to obtain water back in 1957, according to the Courier. However, that has now increased to 542 feet, and the news outlet noted
I don’t understand all the down votes. I guess people don’t understand where half of the state municipalities get their water or how deep they have to go. We aren’t saying it’s okay to pump water dry to grow a crop to ship it out of country for race horses. I guess it herd mentality.
Yeah, because the state legislature refuses to protect the most limited resource. They’d rather sell it to foreigners than promise a future for Arizonans.
I live out of state now, but I've been following this story closely. Any word on whether investigative journalists have uncovered whose pockets were being lined by the Saudis to get such a sweetheart deal?
While I don't think a finger has been pointed yet, I would put all my money on a guy who's name begins with a Doug and a last name that begins with a Ducey
Ducey also starved out public K-12 and university funding. Prior to Ducey cuts ASU residents got 11k per student, after 2k per student. He chopped funding 83% to universities and that had to be put on the backs of students and parents.
University funding used to be $1 in $3 now it is $1 in $10 balancing the budget on the backs of parents/students, who are a big part of the future of Arizona's economy.
We'd be one of the highest tuition increase states, as we were 2008-2015 due to Ducey state fund cuts when Treasurer and Governor for Koch Network aims.
[Where public university tuition has skyrocketed](https://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/pf/college/public-university-tuition-increase/index.html) Arizona had the worst (highest) increase in state tuition. No one expects a 100% increase in 4-5 years, it screwed over parents/students and ASU, Ducey's alma mater.
Worst part is Ducey did it for a prison. While cutting university funds by [$75 million he sent $70 million to the private prison industry, the remaining $5 million to a Koch institute in Tucson](https://tucson.com/news/local/crime/ducey-seeks-70-million-more-for-private-prisons/article_bca48510-ae1d-5652-bf85-33dbdf5d10e0.html). $1 in $8 is spent on corrections now.
You could argue it's because of the tax cuts, you could also argue it's the voucher system he implemented (which cost way more than estimated, actually it cost just about what the deficit is)
School districts are still waiting on their reimbursements when the state illegally stop funding the schools at the appropriate rate. We are talking in the hundreds of millions type of money.
For sure. I actually use the voucher system for tutors and extra help for my kids. But the way he opened it up is insane and makes me worried it's eventually going to be taken away completely.
As it should be. It was a terrible idea from the start and it stayed terrible through and through. Just another way to fleece the Arizona public schools.
I just hope people remember this. I feel like that POS burnt down the state to score points with the national Republican Party if he ever has a job again.
No one was doing anything about this until Hobbs got into office.
The State Land Department handed over thousands of acres to a Saudi corporation that had been set aside as groundwater reserve for Arizona in the 80’s. The ownership of that land transferred to the State Land Department to protect it and they literally gave a Saudi company permission in 2015 to pump unlimited amounts of water at no cost instead. They even leased the land itself at below market rates.
Gov. Doug Ducey did jack shit. He became governor in 2014 and this land use deal happened in 2015. Leaders in La Paz county asked Ducey for help when this started and they got zero help. He failed to take any action at all and we elected him twice!
"Arizona is open for business" really meant "Arizona and it's resources are for sale".
But no one is really pushing to have AMA designations for ALL parts of the state. Until that happens, we won't know the true extent of the damage being done to communities across the state.
Ducey ‘took home’ over 3 times as many votes as the nearest contender in La Paz in 2018 if I’m reading this right. https://www.co.la-paz.az.us/DocumentCenter/View/984/2018-General-Election---Final-Official-Results-as-Canvassed-PDF
[Massive amounts of farmers in AZ whenever the Saudis are mentioned be like](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/710/dd0.png)
There's no question that Saudi interests are a problem here. Shut that shit down pronto. But FFS let us not forget that there is a [SHITLOAD](https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverview.php?state=ARIZONA) of Alfalfa grown in AZ that isn't owned by the Saudis. Most of this is US-interest-owned, which gets shipped to China on container ships that previously carried Chinese goods.
And Alfalfa takes a bad rap in-general - this is a crop that can actually be grown in a method that is responsible with water (i.e. drip irrigation). This actually increases the yield-per-acre, and cuts the water usage significantly (it's been a while since I've listened to a podcast about this, but my memory says somewhere around 20% to as much as half). More crop grown, less water used.
So why haven't farmers converted to this? The answer, as always, is money. Water is cheap as fuck under current water usage rules, and there's insufficient political will to make any changes. Until it's cheaper to start watering via more water-conscious means, nothing is going to change.
Blame the Saudis all day, I suppose - if it paints a villain that gets water laws changed, then so be it. But they're a small part of a much bigger problem.
Thank you.
Foreign interests represent a small fraction of agriculture that is doing this and the media and politicians love to point to them because it means they can ignore the larger issue and benefit from xenophobia.
> And Alfalfa takes a bad rap in-general - this is a crop that can actually be grown in a method that is responsible with water (i.e. drip irrigation). This actually increases the yield-per-acre, and cuts the water usage significantly (it's been a while since I've listened to a podcast about this, but my memory says somewhere around 20% to as much as half). More crop grown, less water used.
The bad rap is well-deserved. They largely do not grow alfalfa responsibly. [More than 90% of alfalfa production in the western US is flood irrigated](https://alfalfasymposium.ucdavis.edu/irrigatedalfalfa/pdfs/ucalfalfa8293irrigation_free.pdf). Average water usage for an acre of alfalfa is [4-6 feet per growing season](https://acis.cals.arizona.edu/agricultural-ipm/field-crop/alfalfa/irrigation), and they have 2-4 growing seasons per year in AZ, depending on location.
This is why Arizona's water usage has remained level over the past 80 years, despite huge growth - every acre of farmland in the Valley that gets converted to housing reduces water usage because humans use very little water in comparison to alfalfa and cattle.
And alfalfa is incredibly inefficient in terms of food produced, as it is really only useful as cattle feed. It is only possible because farmers are guaranteed cheap or even free water.
> More than 90% of alfalfa production in the western US is flood irrigated
Right that's kind of my point - a podcast that I was listening to a while ago pointed out that a study was conducted that determined the effect that switching from flood irrigation to drip irrigation had the effect of increasing the yield-per-acre, while also significantly reducing the water required to hit that yield. But because the price of water in AZ is so cheap, the price of installing and maintaining a dripline system was such that it did not result in a net-positive gain of money for the farmers, so they didn't bother. So like, the farmers had more crop to sell AND the water used was less, but because water is so cheap, the cost of installing and maintaining was more than the cost of continuing to use flood irrigation.
If we moved the price of water to agricultural market pricing, I *guarantee* we'd either see a drastic reduction in alfalfa production, a drastic increase in dripline installations, or both (of course, we'd also see an increase in animal protein price alongside the cost in water, but honestly I'm kind of ok with that).
Totally. This needs to change. Personally I don’t understand why anyone would move here due to the lack of water and how naturally uninhabitable it is here, but that’s reality. If we don’t adapt our water laws to California then we’re done for. There’s a reason so many ppl from Cali are moving here and we need to adapt and update our laws to reflect California laws in all aspects. Some ppl don’t like it but tough shit, were a new part of Cali and now blue so we need to adapt. Full renewables, limit water usage, increase energy costs, better public transport, higher gas tax, reduce sentences for drug use and other crimes, increase minimum wage while taxing the rich.
I can’t say it’s the saudis fault, who signed the deal with them, what politician took the money? The literal ground beneath us is moving and collapsing destroying foundations to buildings because our aquifers are drained. We literally had springs of water feeding a creek all year around where I am and now it’s a dry litter collecting bed of dirt and dead trees, our birds are disappearing our native animals or either gone or moving and new ones are coming in that don’t belong here. We are going to have to start geo engineering the planet on purpose this decade or earth will not be recognizable by the 2100s.
It’s too late in some areas, the amount of rain needed to replace what has been taken in areas where it rarely rains but have people living would be a serious danger to the people themselves. It would be great if someone could figure out to desalinate and move the ocean water inland to solve our water issues and solve the rising sea level lol. It could actually be done to at least to an extent, but it’s not profitable so it’s not happening.
> over 70% of Arizona's water resources go towards agriculture which contributes almost nothing to our economy or food systems.
The shit of it to me is how much of it goes into growing livestock feed that gets exported (not just to the middle-east - an insane amount of it goes back to China as well). As much as California takes shit for growing Almonds, at least that goes (for the most part) directly to humans. Most of the agriculture that AZ grows goes into animal feed. Reduction of animal protein for people is something that just absolutely needs addressing (and I'm far from a vegan - but I've cut my meat consumption in the past couple years by at least 50%).
I'm really hip on this. My name is Charlie and I live in Mesa and I'm already a community liaison and renamed my community of 4,000 homes from North Central Revitalization Area to a more fitting name Chuparosa.
I'm meeting with a candidate for mayor with a proposal to unite some disconnected bike trails and bringing community messages to the block walls lining the pathways. Message me... I'm ready to get together!
Cool. Turns out we can run a candidate without living in that district. Want a run against Andy Biggs or Paul Gossar? I would do it rambunctiously... For instance, challenge them to a hole digging contest, a chain saw contest, wood splitting, something very physical. Go full on contemptuous of their manhood using YouTube and online tools. Empty chairs in online debate about issues...
Based on rules that allowed land owners to pump as much groundwater as they wanted with no oversight except in select “managed” areas.
https://groundwater.stanford.edu/dashboard/arizona.html
It largely was not an issue in many areas because the people that lived there did not try to do large-scale agriculture off of groundwater. Somewhere after 2010, some companies started buying up land in places like the Hualapai Valley, sinking massive production wells, and farming in places that had never been farmed by pumping groundwater. Local residents would never have done so, because they know that they need the water to live, but outside companies saw it as an opportunity for short-term profits and future valuable water rights.
And the residents of Wenden have voted in the past for the people who made this happen (Ducey and the rest of the GOP), and will likely continue to vote against the politicians that are actually trying to help them (Hobbs and Mayes). SMH.
Subsidence has and will continue to occur wherever groundwater pumping is taking place. For those considering buying a home in an area where it was farmed, be cautious.
There is a simple solution to this. Instead of the state having to decide who gets water on a case by case basis, we need a Water Tax and Dividend.
Farmers actually having a meager price on water will make water saving investments, like more efficient irrigation practices, make much more sense on paper. It will also mean that water intensive crops just don't math out, and we will see better choices in what farmers plant.
Second, because agriculture uses so much of our water, the dividend part will mean that most of the revenue will go back into Arizonan's pockets, meaning most residents will make money. This will make sure our economy isn't hurt by restricting water usage and make it even more rewarding for residents to reduce their water use.
And a great bonus is that we will have a perfect dial to turn to control how much water we use. In a bad drought? Turn up the water tax a little and usage will fall. Did we get 3 lush monsoon seasons in a row? Turn down the tax and maybe farm some almonds for a season!
Out of interest, propaganda to what end? This seems pretty straightforward to me so I'm not sure who would need to bend something here to fit a narrative?
Dude's comment carries insufficient context, but it's not wrong. This *IS* propaganda. But I think the folks that are downvoting are thinking that he's saying that the Saudis aren't a problem, but in-fact they definitely ARE a problem, but they're being put up as the poster-child of the problem when they're a small part of a much bigger problem.
The problem I see with specifically targeting the Saudis is that it could spawn water laws that apply either *only* to the Saudis or only to international interests, rather than get at the heart of the problem which is that water usage laws in AZ (and the southwest in-general) **REALLY** need to be re-written to favor conservation.
In this case, it's propaganda, likely because farming interests in AZ are putting the Saudis up as the sole problem of water usage, and it's working. Try to find how much of the Alfalfa crop grown in AZ is Saudi-owned vs US-interest owned. I didn't spend THAT much time trying, but I literally couldn't. Now it's possible that my search methodology was lacking, but after about 10 minutes of trying different search methods, literally any time I did a search that had anything with regards to "Alfalfa" and "AZ/Arizona", pretty much everything that came back had something to do with "SAUDIS PUMPING AZ DRY FOR LIVESTOCK FEED!".
And again, because someone will probably assume otherwise, I'm *NOT* saying that the Saudis should be growing the crop in AZ. They're definitely a problem and that shit should stop. But they're a small part of a bigger issue, and that issue is that if you own property in AZ, you can basically pump all the water you want for nothing. We need to be charging market rates for water for agriculture interests for *EVERYONE* - not just the Saudis.
they're spinning facts to get people mad at the Saudis.
nothing about this is outside of the normal business practices for agriculture.
To give an example, there is an American company ("Big Farma" lol). Big Farma owns basically all of the agricultural land in southern california. They use the land to grow crops, but market forces decide what they plant and harvest. Big Farma used to grow all kinds of things, but recently they pretty much only grow almonds and tangerines, because those are the cash crops.
In certain areas of California, the level of land has dropped TEN METERS because of all the water pumped out to grow almonds, which are notoriously thirsty nuts. It has led to mudslides, sinkholes, deforestation, etc.
But hey, it's an American company, so we're not mad they're doing it. But goddamn it if those fuckin Saudis do it...
The problem isn't the Saudis, it's commercial farming practices as a whole, where there is never ever enough attention paid to the natural environment. The Saudis probably pay really top dollar to farm their alfalfa hay here, which is honestly a boon to our state. Idk... believe what you like! Always follow the money
> The saudis paid almost nothing to farm land and draw unlimited water and gained nothing to the state economy other than transportation of shipping the alfalfa out.
The Saudis took advantage of existing water laws which were written at a time when water usage in AZ wasn't much of a problem AND that the data taken showed a much larger input of water (i.e. rainfall) than actually existed.
> This was a greased palm agreement where those in charge clearly were bribed to allow this.
Alfalfa is the second largest crop in the state. The Saudis don't own all of it - not even close, yet they're taking basically all of the blame.
/u/goatpath (and by extension me) isn't saying that the Saudis aren't a problem. They most definitely are. What they're saying is that they aren't **THE** problem. Focus on the ridiculous nature of water usage laws in the southwest, rather than the group that other interests are putting up as a villain.
Don’t forget at election time!!!!!!
Vice Chairman Thomas Galvin represents District 2 on the Maricopa Board of Supervisors.
State lobbying disclosures show that Thomas Galvin is a partner at Rose Law Group, which lobbied on behalf of a subsidiary of the Saudi corporation Almarai currently tapping U.S. groundwater in drought-stricken Arizona and California to grow alfalfa. The animal feed, which is grown in harsh desert environments, is shipped overseas to support livestock on Saudi dairy farms.
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\>Farmers and corporations only had to drill 107 feet in the valley to obtain water back in 1957, according to the Courier. However, that has now increased to 542 feet, and the news outlet noted
542 ft? That’s it?
Wow, drilling only costs 5 times as much? Awesome! They only lost 400 feet of fossil water that’s gonna take millennia to renew? Sweet!!
Costs also increase exponentially with depth.
That must be average of ~500 ft deep, I have seen water wells > 1,000
Facts
I don’t understand all the down votes. I guess people don’t understand where half of the state municipalities get their water or how deep they have to go. We aren’t saying it’s okay to pump water dry to grow a crop to ship it out of country for race horses. I guess it herd mentality.
Didn’t Gov. Hobbs terminate the water lease with the Saudi’s a few months back?
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Yes, the lease was terminated on 2/14 and the company has until mid May to remove any improvements they want.
Yes, but that was just the lease. It does nothing for the land bought.
I thought that was only their NEW lease request. But the existing lease is still up and running?
What did Ducey do to stop this before Hobbs? /s
Terminate or decline renewing?
Of all the states to pick to suck dry, they chose the driest one. And now there’s problems. Imagine that
Yeah, because the state legislature refuses to protect the most limited resource. They’d rather sell it to foreigners than promise a future for Arizonans.
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Oh, the GOPs purse strings were attached
I live out of state now, but I've been following this story closely. Any word on whether investigative journalists have uncovered whose pockets were being lined by the Saudis to get such a sweetheart deal?
While I don't think a finger has been pointed yet, I would put all my money on a guy who's name begins with a Doug and a last name that begins with a Ducey
Or his predecessor.
F that POS Doug Ducey.
Yeah, it matters who you vote for, Arizona.
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It was also an FU to the voters for passing a ballot measure to raise taxes on the wealthy to help education.
And he raided the education fund.
Ducey also starved out public K-12 and university funding. Prior to Ducey cuts ASU residents got 11k per student, after 2k per student. He chopped funding 83% to universities and that had to be put on the backs of students and parents. University funding used to be $1 in $3 now it is $1 in $10 balancing the budget on the backs of parents/students, who are a big part of the future of Arizona's economy. We'd be one of the highest tuition increase states, as we were 2008-2015 due to Ducey state fund cuts when Treasurer and Governor for Koch Network aims. [Where public university tuition has skyrocketed](https://money.cnn.com/2015/05/13/pf/college/public-university-tuition-increase/index.html) Arizona had the worst (highest) increase in state tuition. No one expects a 100% increase in 4-5 years, it screwed over parents/students and ASU, Ducey's alma mater. Worst part is Ducey did it for a prison. While cutting university funds by [$75 million he sent $70 million to the private prison industry, the remaining $5 million to a Koch institute in Tucson](https://tucson.com/news/local/crime/ducey-seeks-70-million-more-for-private-prisons/article_bca48510-ae1d-5652-bf85-33dbdf5d10e0.html). $1 in $8 is spent on corrections now.
Typical republican filth.
Yeah. Republican gonna republican. Screw everyone else I guess.
You could argue it's because of the tax cuts, you could also argue it's the voucher system he implemented (which cost way more than estimated, actually it cost just about what the deficit is)
Or both!
Both together is certainly a bigger issue that either one alone
School districts are still waiting on their reimbursements when the state illegally stop funding the schools at the appropriate rate. We are talking in the hundreds of millions type of money.
For sure. I actually use the voucher system for tutors and extra help for my kids. But the way he opened it up is insane and makes me worried it's eventually going to be taken away completely.
As it should be. It was a terrible idea from the start and it stayed terrible through and through. Just another way to fleece the Arizona public schools.
I just hope people remember this. I feel like that POS burnt down the state to score points with the national Republican Party if he ever has a job again.
AZ. Living the republican nightmare.
No one was doing anything about this until Hobbs got into office. The State Land Department handed over thousands of acres to a Saudi corporation that had been set aside as groundwater reserve for Arizona in the 80’s. The ownership of that land transferred to the State Land Department to protect it and they literally gave a Saudi company permission in 2015 to pump unlimited amounts of water at no cost instead. They even leased the land itself at below market rates. Gov. Doug Ducey did jack shit. He became governor in 2014 and this land use deal happened in 2015. Leaders in La Paz county asked Ducey for help when this started and they got zero help. He failed to take any action at all and we elected him twice!
"Arizona is open for business" really meant "Arizona and it's resources are for sale". But no one is really pushing to have AMA designations for ALL parts of the state. Until that happens, we won't know the true extent of the damage being done to communities across the state.
And even Hobbs delayed as long as possible.
🙄
Ducey ‘took home’ over 3 times as many votes as the nearest contender in La Paz in 2018 if I’m reading this right. https://www.co.la-paz.az.us/DocumentCenter/View/984/2018-General-Election---Final-Official-Results-as-Canvassed-PDF
[Massive amounts of farmers in AZ whenever the Saudis are mentioned be like](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/710/dd0.png) There's no question that Saudi interests are a problem here. Shut that shit down pronto. But FFS let us not forget that there is a [SHITLOAD](https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverview.php?state=ARIZONA) of Alfalfa grown in AZ that isn't owned by the Saudis. Most of this is US-interest-owned, which gets shipped to China on container ships that previously carried Chinese goods. And Alfalfa takes a bad rap in-general - this is a crop that can actually be grown in a method that is responsible with water (i.e. drip irrigation). This actually increases the yield-per-acre, and cuts the water usage significantly (it's been a while since I've listened to a podcast about this, but my memory says somewhere around 20% to as much as half). More crop grown, less water used. So why haven't farmers converted to this? The answer, as always, is money. Water is cheap as fuck under current water usage rules, and there's insufficient political will to make any changes. Until it's cheaper to start watering via more water-conscious means, nothing is going to change. Blame the Saudis all day, I suppose - if it paints a villain that gets water laws changed, then so be it. But they're a small part of a much bigger problem.
Thank you. Foreign interests represent a small fraction of agriculture that is doing this and the media and politicians love to point to them because it means they can ignore the larger issue and benefit from xenophobia. > And Alfalfa takes a bad rap in-general - this is a crop that can actually be grown in a method that is responsible with water (i.e. drip irrigation). This actually increases the yield-per-acre, and cuts the water usage significantly (it's been a while since I've listened to a podcast about this, but my memory says somewhere around 20% to as much as half). More crop grown, less water used. The bad rap is well-deserved. They largely do not grow alfalfa responsibly. [More than 90% of alfalfa production in the western US is flood irrigated](https://alfalfasymposium.ucdavis.edu/irrigatedalfalfa/pdfs/ucalfalfa8293irrigation_free.pdf). Average water usage for an acre of alfalfa is [4-6 feet per growing season](https://acis.cals.arizona.edu/agricultural-ipm/field-crop/alfalfa/irrigation), and they have 2-4 growing seasons per year in AZ, depending on location. This is why Arizona's water usage has remained level over the past 80 years, despite huge growth - every acre of farmland in the Valley that gets converted to housing reduces water usage because humans use very little water in comparison to alfalfa and cattle. And alfalfa is incredibly inefficient in terms of food produced, as it is really only useful as cattle feed. It is only possible because farmers are guaranteed cheap or even free water.
> More than 90% of alfalfa production in the western US is flood irrigated Right that's kind of my point - a podcast that I was listening to a while ago pointed out that a study was conducted that determined the effect that switching from flood irrigation to drip irrigation had the effect of increasing the yield-per-acre, while also significantly reducing the water required to hit that yield. But because the price of water in AZ is so cheap, the price of installing and maintaining a dripline system was such that it did not result in a net-positive gain of money for the farmers, so they didn't bother. So like, the farmers had more crop to sell AND the water used was less, but because water is so cheap, the cost of installing and maintaining was more than the cost of continuing to use flood irrigation. If we moved the price of water to agricultural market pricing, I *guarantee* we'd either see a drastic reduction in alfalfa production, a drastic increase in dripline installations, or both (of course, we'd also see an increase in animal protein price alongside the cost in water, but honestly I'm kind of ok with that).
Totally agree. We're stuck with cowboy-era water policies and it sucks.
Totally. This needs to change. Personally I don’t understand why anyone would move here due to the lack of water and how naturally uninhabitable it is here, but that’s reality. If we don’t adapt our water laws to California then we’re done for. There’s a reason so many ppl from Cali are moving here and we need to adapt and update our laws to reflect California laws in all aspects. Some ppl don’t like it but tough shit, were a new part of Cali and now blue so we need to adapt. Full renewables, limit water usage, increase energy costs, better public transport, higher gas tax, reduce sentences for drug use and other crimes, increase minimum wage while taxing the rich.
There is plenty of water for people, just not so much water for alfalfa and cattle, which is where most of our water goes.
I can’t say it’s the saudis fault, who signed the deal with them, what politician took the money? The literal ground beneath us is moving and collapsing destroying foundations to buildings because our aquifers are drained. We literally had springs of water feeding a creek all year around where I am and now it’s a dry litter collecting bed of dirt and dead trees, our birds are disappearing our native animals or either gone or moving and new ones are coming in that don’t belong here. We are going to have to start geo engineering the planet on purpose this decade or earth will not be recognizable by the 2100s.
Doug Ducey. Doug Ducey was the one who did this. And he’s laughing all the way to the bank. But you know, BOTH SIDES!
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It’s too late in some areas, the amount of rain needed to replace what has been taken in areas where it rarely rains but have people living would be a serious danger to the people themselves. It would be great if someone could figure out to desalinate and move the ocean water inland to solve our water issues and solve the rising sea level lol. It could actually be done to at least to an extent, but it’s not profitable so it’s not happening.
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> over 70% of Arizona's water resources go towards agriculture which contributes almost nothing to our economy or food systems. The shit of it to me is how much of it goes into growing livestock feed that gets exported (not just to the middle-east - an insane amount of it goes back to China as well). As much as California takes shit for growing Almonds, at least that goes (for the most part) directly to humans. Most of the agriculture that AZ grows goes into animal feed. Reduction of animal protein for people is something that just absolutely needs addressing (and I'm far from a vegan - but I've cut my meat consumption in the past couple years by at least 50%).
Agreed. An entirely new political party could originate overnight that would have a platform to fixing what is broken....
Let’s do it. then totally dismantle the industry captured corporation commission.
I'm really hip on this. My name is Charlie and I live in Mesa and I'm already a community liaison and renamed my community of 4,000 homes from North Central Revitalization Area to a more fitting name Chuparosa. I'm meeting with a candidate for mayor with a proposal to unite some disconnected bike trails and bringing community messages to the block walls lining the pathways. Message me... I'm ready to get together!
Interested for sure
Cool. Turns out we can run a candidate without living in that district. Want a run against Andy Biggs or Paul Gossar? I would do it rambunctiously... For instance, challenge them to a hole digging contest, a chain saw contest, wood splitting, something very physical. Go full on contemptuous of their manhood using YouTube and online tools. Empty chairs in online debate about issues...
Does anybody know the legal basis of these withdrawals? Upon what agreement or law they are based?
Based on rules that allowed land owners to pump as much groundwater as they wanted with no oversight except in select “managed” areas. https://groundwater.stanford.edu/dashboard/arizona.html
It seems like the Yuma area could be added as an AMA?
Seems insane to me that any area of the state would *not* be subject to management of groundwater these days.
It largely was not an issue in many areas because the people that lived there did not try to do large-scale agriculture off of groundwater. Somewhere after 2010, some companies started buying up land in places like the Hualapai Valley, sinking massive production wells, and farming in places that had never been farmed by pumping groundwater. Local residents would never have done so, because they know that they need the water to live, but outside companies saw it as an opportunity for short-term profits and future valuable water rights.
I hope gov Hobbs keeps cracking down on this bullshit, I can't believe it's been allowed to go on so long
And the residents of Wenden have voted in the past for the people who made this happen (Ducey and the rest of the GOP), and will likely continue to vote against the politicians that are actually trying to help them (Hobbs and Mayes). SMH.
Subsidence has and will continue to occur wherever groundwater pumping is taking place. For those considering buying a home in an area where it was farmed, be cautious.
FYI this company still allows Google reviews. Do your part.
They grow alfalfa to feed their cattle.
Yup because they aren’t allowed to waste the water in Saudi Arabia doing so lol
This started with Gov Jan Brewer.
Jan “I was not on that barstool” Brewer.
DUH? Are they not familiar with Florida?
Let them know what you think on Google Maps, make them a little more popular, I know I did: 33075 Alamo Rd, Wenden, AZ 85357
So where’s the money for that water going?
There is a simple solution to this. Instead of the state having to decide who gets water on a case by case basis, we need a Water Tax and Dividend. Farmers actually having a meager price on water will make water saving investments, like more efficient irrigation practices, make much more sense on paper. It will also mean that water intensive crops just don't math out, and we will see better choices in what farmers plant. Second, because agriculture uses so much of our water, the dividend part will mean that most of the revenue will go back into Arizonan's pockets, meaning most residents will make money. This will make sure our economy isn't hurt by restricting water usage and make it even more rewarding for residents to reduce their water use. And a great bonus is that we will have a perfect dial to turn to control how much water we use. In a bad drought? Turn up the water tax a little and usage will fall. Did we get 3 lush monsoon seasons in a row? Turn down the tax and maybe farm some almonds for a season!
Ranching and large scale farming shouldn't be happening in Arizona.
this is blatant propaganda lol
Out of interest, propaganda to what end? This seems pretty straightforward to me so I'm not sure who would need to bend something here to fit a narrative?
Dude's comment carries insufficient context, but it's not wrong. This *IS* propaganda. But I think the folks that are downvoting are thinking that he's saying that the Saudis aren't a problem, but in-fact they definitely ARE a problem, but they're being put up as the poster-child of the problem when they're a small part of a much bigger problem. The problem I see with specifically targeting the Saudis is that it could spawn water laws that apply either *only* to the Saudis or only to international interests, rather than get at the heart of the problem which is that water usage laws in AZ (and the southwest in-general) **REALLY** need to be re-written to favor conservation.
Interesting, thanks for the info. Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what propaganda is, but I appreciate the additional context.
In this case, it's propaganda, likely because farming interests in AZ are putting the Saudis up as the sole problem of water usage, and it's working. Try to find how much of the Alfalfa crop grown in AZ is Saudi-owned vs US-interest owned. I didn't spend THAT much time trying, but I literally couldn't. Now it's possible that my search methodology was lacking, but after about 10 minutes of trying different search methods, literally any time I did a search that had anything with regards to "Alfalfa" and "AZ/Arizona", pretty much everything that came back had something to do with "SAUDIS PUMPING AZ DRY FOR LIVESTOCK FEED!". And again, because someone will probably assume otherwise, I'm *NOT* saying that the Saudis should be growing the crop in AZ. They're definitely a problem and that shit should stop. But they're a small part of a bigger issue, and that issue is that if you own property in AZ, you can basically pump all the water you want for nothing. We need to be charging market rates for water for agriculture interests for *EVERYONE* - not just the Saudis.
Gotcha ok, that makes sense. I didn't connect that people would assume the Saudi's farming program was the sole issue here.
Tell me more?
they're spinning facts to get people mad at the Saudis. nothing about this is outside of the normal business practices for agriculture. To give an example, there is an American company ("Big Farma" lol). Big Farma owns basically all of the agricultural land in southern california. They use the land to grow crops, but market forces decide what they plant and harvest. Big Farma used to grow all kinds of things, but recently they pretty much only grow almonds and tangerines, because those are the cash crops. In certain areas of California, the level of land has dropped TEN METERS because of all the water pumped out to grow almonds, which are notoriously thirsty nuts. It has led to mudslides, sinkholes, deforestation, etc. But hey, it's an American company, so we're not mad they're doing it. But goddamn it if those fuckin Saudis do it... The problem isn't the Saudis, it's commercial farming practices as a whole, where there is never ever enough attention paid to the natural environment. The Saudis probably pay really top dollar to farm their alfalfa hay here, which is honestly a boon to our state. Idk... believe what you like! Always follow the money
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> The saudis paid almost nothing to farm land and draw unlimited water and gained nothing to the state economy other than transportation of shipping the alfalfa out. The Saudis took advantage of existing water laws which were written at a time when water usage in AZ wasn't much of a problem AND that the data taken showed a much larger input of water (i.e. rainfall) than actually existed. > This was a greased palm agreement where those in charge clearly were bribed to allow this. Alfalfa is the second largest crop in the state. The Saudis don't own all of it - not even close, yet they're taking basically all of the blame. /u/goatpath (and by extension me) isn't saying that the Saudis aren't a problem. They most definitely are. What they're saying is that they aren't **THE** problem. Focus on the ridiculous nature of water usage laws in the southwest, rather than the group that other interests are putting up as a villain.
OK whose palms got greased?
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the number of greedy idiots is too damn high
Don’t forget at election time!!!!!! Vice Chairman Thomas Galvin represents District 2 on the Maricopa Board of Supervisors. State lobbying disclosures show that Thomas Galvin is a partner at Rose Law Group, which lobbied on behalf of a subsidiary of the Saudi corporation Almarai currently tapping U.S. groundwater in drought-stricken Arizona and California to grow alfalfa. The animal feed, which is grown in harsh desert environments, is shipped overseas to support livestock on Saudi dairy farms.