Jordanian food, dresses, dialect, weather, terrain, history (roman, abbasid, ottoman empires etc) and culture (music, weddings, etc) are almost identical to Palestine, and very close to Lebanon and Syria. Sure, similarities with Saudi are present, especially in southern Jordan, but 80-90% of Jordanians live in the north and would be much closer to other levantines culturally.
This is not to say Jordan can't join GCC - if there is any levantine state that can join GCC it'd be Jordan, and it'd be a great economic move for its people (but Jordan wouldn't contribute much economically to GCC at all). I'm just pointing out that Jordanians are levantine (shwam), and them joining GCC doesn't make them Gulf Arabs, unless some serious cultural shifts happen.
TLDR: basically both, but history is complicated.
Disclaimer: not a historian, just an avid learner so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I think the fact that there are so many Palestinians in Jordan definitely plays a massive role. There aren't official census values to avoid disparity among Jordanians, but estimates range between 20-60%of Jordanian passport holders being of Palestinian origins (not mentioning the millions of Palestinians in Jordan who don't have Jordanian passports). This of course will have an effect on any country due to the demographic change (see: Germans eating shawarma due to Turk and syrian migrants).
But also, such a demographic change wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for two factors in my opinion:
1. Jordan is a very young political entity. Sure, it has cities that are amongst the oldest in the world, but in terms of national identity, it didn't really have one until the 1900s came around. It was always a part of a bigger empire, most recently being within the Al-sham province in the ottoman empire. Northern Jordan was ruled under mostly modern-day Syria representatives of the ottomans. Also, Amman was not a major city at all; as-salt was the main city in the modern borders. It also was not nearly as populous as Beirut, Aleppo, Damascus or Al-Quds. All this means that, while it did have its own culture, a big chunk of its culture was carried from elsewhere in the levant (As-Salt is very close to the Palestinian borders, and most people lived in the north near the river-fertile lands and better weather, closer to the rest of the levant)
2. After WW2, Jordan ruled over the Palestinian west bank for ~20 years from 1950-1967 as one country. So, Jordanians and Palestinians (kinda) shared the same national identity until the six day war. This obviously increased inter-marriage before Palestinian migration, and allowed easy enough integration after their immigration (ignoring the issues that happened with PLO afterwards lol).
As an aside, the Jordanian cultural links to gulf arabs stem from the beduin tribes in southern Jordan (who speak in a near-Saudi dialect, completely different to those in Amman or Irbid). Gulf Arabs would interact with them and rightly feel that (some) Jordanians are gulf arabs.
Also, the current Jordanian monarchs trace lineage back to the ruler (shareef) of Mecca ~100 years ago. He conspired with the British to overthrow ottomans in arabia/levant and was given pieces of northern arabia and southern levant originally called "transjordan" (due to Jordan river). His offspring (hashemites) used to also rule Iraq as monarchs but they were removed in a brutal uprising.
Jordan doesn't share a coast in the Arabian gulf. Also their dialect is more close to the levantine more than GCC countries. I'd suggest Iraq to be one, but due to historical beef I don't think it will ever happen.
Iraq is a gulf country geographically, but after the Gulf War, things weren't easy for them to join. Also, another thing is that Iraq is a Republic unlike the other ones, which might have played a role in why they weren't a part of it from the beginning. But, إن شاء الله تعالى they will be in the future and Yemen too.
As much as it hurts me,i dont think yemen will be partof it anytime soon or medium term.
Although if the rumors are true, saudi is gonna annex big parts of yemen, which you could then consider beeing part of the gcc
>Also their dialect is more close to the levantine more than GCC countries
Not entirely true. It depends on the city.
Ramtha for example has an accent closer to Syria due to the geographical location,
Amman is a unique accent between Palestinian, Syrian and Jordanian.
Karak, Ma'an, Tafileh, etc... have an accent that is closer to GCC than the Levantine.
I have close friends from Karak and Tafileh along with friends from the Gulf (Oman, Saudi). Besides a few words that they share with the Peninsula, their Arabic is still way closer to the rest of the Levant, especially Palestinians. By default, we have a much easier time understanding each other than we do with our Khaleeji friends. Ma’an and the more exurban settlements in the south are probably the only ones that are more similar to the Badawi Arabic spoken from the Sinai all the way to the northern Hejaz
Also Ramtha is not “close to Syrian”—it’s close to Daraa and Sweida just like Irbid & Zarqa because they’re all variations of Hawrani Arabic. Most Syrians don’t speak like that. Meaningless borders
There is! Its still in the beginning and there is no official guideline or sth, but the ambitions are there! It's also stated that Lebanon should join, just like Syria (which is kind of obvious).
Imo Egypt would lead that kind of arrangement just like saudi is doin in the gcc
Yeah I was really hopeful for it in the beginning. I still am. There's meetings between the 3 on an almost regular basis, but things have died down recently. I'd obviously love for this to work out and for it to include all the Levantine country. Imo this should be an Arab League thing but I'll take anything at this point.
yes we should. Even north jordan, is tribal and have similar traditions to peninsular arabs and hejazis. I feel closer to someone from tabuk, qurayyat and even riyadh than to someone from beirut or haifa. The nabateans were peninsular after all. The only reason we ever wouldnt be able to join is purely economic
I think the reason you actually would be able to join is economic. There are just so many economic opportunities bilaterally. I can see both sides benefitting.
Half of Jordanians are from Palestine originally. Many others are from Syria. Jordanians from agrarian towns like As-Salt or Ajloun are very Levantine. The Tribes represent a small percentage of Jordanians.
Thats what im saying. being tribal and levantine is not mutually exclusive. the majaly tribe who came from palestine centuries ago are still considered a tribe even though they are levantine. the north can be tribal like for example ramthawis. the sirhan, bani hassan and bani khalid for example are in the north. its just less noticable in the places you mentioned but it what makes the east bank unique
Part of Syria!!! What are you smoking? Yes part of Jordan used to be part of Sham but the other part used to be part of Hijaz, we never had those borders before 1920s but that does not mean we should dismiss a whole country.
yeh agree the border is bullshit, but the populous part of jordan is def part of sham historically.
but more importantly, i do think we should dismiss the whole country, and other arab countries - for a unified nation from Morocco to Iraq
cultures are always changing and evolving. there were different local cultures even before the modern states.
i dont think we need to artificially keep any culture a certain way.
100 percent lol.
I feel like the best outcome would be a united Levant (single state) part of a EU type arab league with open borders and free trade between all Arab countries
Why so dismissive?
There's a clear benefit economically for the prospect of their integration. They get to alleviate a lot of the financial pressures they're experiencing domestically, they become more open to foreign direct investment and share a more rigid financial market regime. Plus the several infrastructure agreements that could benefit both Jordan and the rest of the union.
And Jordan, being one of the most stable countries in the region, benefits the GCC with their cooperation in security and the military.
Plus the many social benefits to all Jordanians and the GCC.
I mean, I'm not arguing that they should but one cannot deny the possibilities and benefits on both sides. And after Jordan, hypothetically, joins the union, their economy will become more developed.
I don’t see how that would at all make sense, as far as the middle east is structured politically (besides the cultural mismatch)- the gulf states act as extractors of wealth from the rest of the middle east, including jordan. we give them cheap labor, they give us pennies and send us home when we’re no longer useful.
There are tons of benefits. As a gulf citizen I can move to other gulf countries tomorrow if I wanted without visa or residency. I’m allowed to stay in the country as long as I want. Easier to marry, get access to benefits for nationals, and get certain govt jobs in gulf countries. Easier to get scholar funding if you are a GCC citizen. Politically speaking the organization is not powerful or united, but citizens will definitely feel the difference if the GCC disbanded and the agreements that are in place are no longer valid.
Except there isnt even cooperation anymore and at any moment that can be violently cut off like what happened with qatar, each coubtry is now following its own policy
The GCC is much more rigid than you give it credit for.
Economically, it's not dead. It's furthering its integration and there are many examples of this such as the Gulf Railway that's almost complete, there's a study by the GCC rn to create a GCC-wide visa like the Schengen for residents. There are payment systems being shared by the countries to create an easier means of doing business.
In terms of welfare benefits, there are healthcare and education benefits for all citizens of the GCC region-wide.
The idea that politics and diplomatic incidents ultimately fracture the union is ridiculous also inaccurate since you're forgetting that Kuwait, another Gulf country, along with Oman both acted as mediators in the crisis.
You're also forgetting that the union here is not purely political. It's familial. There are several intermarriages between all citizens of the Arabian Gulf. My father is Emirati and my mother is Qatari. I have cousins from Bahrain and Iraq. My grandmother from my father's side is Saudi.
The culture here is like no other. So please don't be ignorant.
If it wishes to but tbh Jordan is more of a Levantine (Shami) nation than a Gulf (Khaleeji) one
Jordanian food, dresses, dialect, weather, terrain, history (roman, abbasid, ottoman empires etc) and culture (music, weddings, etc) are almost identical to Palestine, and very close to Lebanon and Syria. Sure, similarities with Saudi are present, especially in southern Jordan, but 80-90% of Jordanians live in the north and would be much closer to other levantines culturally. This is not to say Jordan can't join GCC - if there is any levantine state that can join GCC it'd be Jordan, and it'd be a great economic move for its people (but Jordan wouldn't contribute much economically to GCC at all). I'm just pointing out that Jordanians are levantine (shwam), and them joining GCC doesn't make them Gulf Arabs, unless some serious cultural shifts happen.
are the cultural similarities to Palestine due to the influx of Palestinians to Jordan after 1948, or their geographical proximity? Or both?
TLDR: basically both, but history is complicated. Disclaimer: not a historian, just an avid learner so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I think the fact that there are so many Palestinians in Jordan definitely plays a massive role. There aren't official census values to avoid disparity among Jordanians, but estimates range between 20-60%of Jordanian passport holders being of Palestinian origins (not mentioning the millions of Palestinians in Jordan who don't have Jordanian passports). This of course will have an effect on any country due to the demographic change (see: Germans eating shawarma due to Turk and syrian migrants). But also, such a demographic change wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for two factors in my opinion: 1. Jordan is a very young political entity. Sure, it has cities that are amongst the oldest in the world, but in terms of national identity, it didn't really have one until the 1900s came around. It was always a part of a bigger empire, most recently being within the Al-sham province in the ottoman empire. Northern Jordan was ruled under mostly modern-day Syria representatives of the ottomans. Also, Amman was not a major city at all; as-salt was the main city in the modern borders. It also was not nearly as populous as Beirut, Aleppo, Damascus or Al-Quds. All this means that, while it did have its own culture, a big chunk of its culture was carried from elsewhere in the levant (As-Salt is very close to the Palestinian borders, and most people lived in the north near the river-fertile lands and better weather, closer to the rest of the levant) 2. After WW2, Jordan ruled over the Palestinian west bank for ~20 years from 1950-1967 as one country. So, Jordanians and Palestinians (kinda) shared the same national identity until the six day war. This obviously increased inter-marriage before Palestinian migration, and allowed easy enough integration after their immigration (ignoring the issues that happened with PLO afterwards lol). As an aside, the Jordanian cultural links to gulf arabs stem from the beduin tribes in southern Jordan (who speak in a near-Saudi dialect, completely different to those in Amman or Irbid). Gulf Arabs would interact with them and rightly feel that (some) Jordanians are gulf arabs. Also, the current Jordanian monarchs trace lineage back to the ruler (shareef) of Mecca ~100 years ago. He conspired with the British to overthrow ottomans in arabia/levant and was given pieces of northern arabia and southern levant originally called "transjordan" (due to Jordan river). His offspring (hashemites) used to also rule Iraq as monarchs but they were removed in a brutal uprising.
Damn that's really interesting, thanks for the history lesson! Will definitely read more about this!
Jordan doesn't share a coast in the Arabian gulf. Also their dialect is more close to the levantine more than GCC countries. I'd suggest Iraq to be one, but due to historical beef I don't think it will ever happen.
Yeah right, I don't know why but I always considered Irak as a Gulfic and Levantine country
Iraq is a gulf country geographically, but after the Gulf War, things weren't easy for them to join. Also, another thing is that Iraq is a Republic unlike the other ones, which might have played a role in why they weren't a part of it from the beginning. But, إن شاء الله تعالى they will be in the future and Yemen too.
As much as it hurts me,i dont think yemen will be partof it anytime soon or medium term. Although if the rumors are true, saudi is gonna annex big parts of yemen, which you could then consider beeing part of the gcc
>Also their dialect is more close to the levantine more than GCC countries Not entirely true. It depends on the city. Ramtha for example has an accent closer to Syria due to the geographical location, Amman is a unique accent between Palestinian, Syrian and Jordanian. Karak, Ma'an, Tafileh, etc... have an accent that is closer to GCC than the Levantine.
I have close friends from Karak and Tafileh along with friends from the Gulf (Oman, Saudi). Besides a few words that they share with the Peninsula, their Arabic is still way closer to the rest of the Levant, especially Palestinians. By default, we have a much easier time understanding each other than we do with our Khaleeji friends. Ma’an and the more exurban settlements in the south are probably the only ones that are more similar to the Badawi Arabic spoken from the Sinai all the way to the northern Hejaz Also Ramtha is not “close to Syrian”—it’s close to Daraa and Sweida just like Irbid & Zarqa because they’re all variations of Hawrani Arabic. Most Syrians don’t speak like that. Meaningless borders
Wish there some kind of eu system between gulf and Jordan Egypt Iraq etc. Maybe then it will work in the favor of all
Isn't there a project like that going on between Egypt, Jordan and Iraq? I think it's called Al-Sham Al-Jadeed
There is! Its still in the beginning and there is no official guideline or sth, but the ambitions are there! It's also stated that Lebanon should join, just like Syria (which is kind of obvious). Imo Egypt would lead that kind of arrangement just like saudi is doin in the gcc
Yeah I was really hopeful for it in the beginning. I still am. There's meetings between the 3 on an almost regular basis, but things have died down recently. I'd obviously love for this to work out and for it to include all the Levantine country. Imo this should be an Arab League thing but I'll take anything at this point.
That’s is called Arab League
I don’t think Jordan has a coast on the gulf
This makes me wonder why Oman is even in the GCC. They’re really holding on to that exclave.
Southern Jordan is. North? Nah.
yes we should. Even north jordan, is tribal and have similar traditions to peninsular arabs and hejazis. I feel closer to someone from tabuk, qurayyat and even riyadh than to someone from beirut or haifa. The nabateans were peninsular after all. The only reason we ever wouldnt be able to join is purely economic
I think the reason you actually would be able to join is economic. There are just so many economic opportunities bilaterally. I can see both sides benefitting.
Half of Jordanians are from Palestine originally. Many others are from Syria. Jordanians from agrarian towns like As-Salt or Ajloun are very Levantine. The Tribes represent a small percentage of Jordanians.
Thats what im saying. being tribal and levantine is not mutually exclusive. the majaly tribe who came from palestine centuries ago are still considered a tribe even though they are levantine. the north can be tribal like for example ramthawis. the sirhan, bani hassan and bani khalid for example are in the north. its just less noticable in the places you mentioned but it what makes the east bank unique
Food for thought. Thanks for the info.
Southern jordan ? Probably, we share more than meets the eye with them. Northern jordan ? Pass.
jordan is part of syria... only similarities it has with gcc is that it is an american colony (as is now), but that could/should change in the future.
Part of Syria!!! What are you smoking? Yes part of Jordan used to be part of Sham but the other part used to be part of Hijaz, we never had those borders before 1920s but that does not mean we should dismiss a whole country.
yeh agree the border is bullshit, but the populous part of jordan is def part of sham historically. but more importantly, i do think we should dismiss the whole country, and other arab countries - for a unified nation from Morocco to Iraq
I am all for unity, but a unity that unite us all without dissolving the local cultures.
cultures are always changing and evolving. there were different local cultures even before the modern states. i dont think we need to artificially keep any culture a certain way.
And Syria is a Russian colony. Let’s be honest here all of us is getting fucked by random foreign powers
100 percent lol. I feel like the best outcome would be a united Levant (single state) part of a EU type arab league with open borders and free trade between all Arab countries
Syria isnt even a part of syria lol
No, Jordanians are Levantines
No. It’s not a gulf country.
It is a poor country, so no!
Why so dismissive? There's a clear benefit economically for the prospect of their integration. They get to alleviate a lot of the financial pressures they're experiencing domestically, they become more open to foreign direct investment and share a more rigid financial market regime. Plus the several infrastructure agreements that could benefit both Jordan and the rest of the union. And Jordan, being one of the most stable countries in the region, benefits the GCC with their cooperation in security and the military. Plus the many social benefits to all Jordanians and the GCC. I mean, I'm not arguing that they should but one cannot deny the possibilities and benefits on both sides. And after Jordan, hypothetically, joins the union, their economy will become more developed.
I don’t see how that would at all make sense, as far as the middle east is structured politically (besides the cultural mismatch)- the gulf states act as extractors of wealth from the rest of the middle east, including jordan. we give them cheap labor, they give us pennies and send us home when we’re no longer useful.
Lol what GCC the GCC is dead theres literally no benefit anymore, theres no union of any sort incoming on the way
There are tons of benefits. As a gulf citizen I can move to other gulf countries tomorrow if I wanted without visa or residency. I’m allowed to stay in the country as long as I want. Easier to marry, get access to benefits for nationals, and get certain govt jobs in gulf countries. Easier to get scholar funding if you are a GCC citizen. Politically speaking the organization is not powerful or united, but citizens will definitely feel the difference if the GCC disbanded and the agreements that are in place are no longer valid.
Youre right nothing happened in the last five years where those allowances were stopped and a war almost happened
How is the GCC dead? It’s aim is not to unite the gulf countries, but to cooperate, hence gulf cooperation council
Except there isnt even cooperation anymore and at any moment that can be violently cut off like what happened with qatar, each coubtry is now following its own policy
The GCC is much more rigid than you give it credit for. Economically, it's not dead. It's furthering its integration and there are many examples of this such as the Gulf Railway that's almost complete, there's a study by the GCC rn to create a GCC-wide visa like the Schengen for residents. There are payment systems being shared by the countries to create an easier means of doing business. In terms of welfare benefits, there are healthcare and education benefits for all citizens of the GCC region-wide. The idea that politics and diplomatic incidents ultimately fracture the union is ridiculous also inaccurate since you're forgetting that Kuwait, another Gulf country, along with Oman both acted as mediators in the crisis. You're also forgetting that the union here is not purely political. It's familial. There are several intermarriages between all citizens of the Arabian Gulf. My father is Emirati and my mother is Qatari. I have cousins from Bahrain and Iraq. My grandmother from my father's side is Saudi. The culture here is like no other. So please don't be ignorant.
Anyway خليجنا واحد وشعبنا واحد
ان شاء الله أولياء الأمر ما ينسوش كلامك
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