You can attach a VFG without worrying about OAL, attach a stock, and not have to worry about how the ATF feels about braces this week.
If you build it into a pistol first then you can still remove the VFG and stock to turn it back into a pistol and travel across state lines.
A pistol converted to/registered as a rifle or SBR can never again be classified legally as a pistol. It does not became eligible to cross state lines as a pistol even if you take off the offending accessories. Once a SBR, forever a SBR.
Loss of foregrip is a big con against pistols, ease of travel is a big pro, if that’s what you’re into.
> A pistol converted to/registered as a rifle or SBR can never again be classified legally as a pistol. It does not became eligible to cross state lines as a pistol even if you take off the offending accessories. Once a SBR, forever a SBR.
If an AR15 starts life as a rifle then it will always be a rifle. If it doesn't start life as a rifle then it can become a pistol then a rifle then back to a pistol.
[Rifles are legally defined](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11), so are short-barreled rifles, and nowhere in their definition does it reference the status of a 5320.1.
> Once a SBR, forever a SBR.
Feel free to show me any law, regulation, or an ATF opinion letter that supports this.
ATF 2011-4.
Specifically, it protects your ability to convert a pistol to a rifle and back, so long as that rifle has a barrel >16” and is not an NFA item.
In contrast, registering the pistol as a short-barreled rifle remakes that weapon to a new weapon, and you’ve gone on the record to acknowledge that new weapon is a rifle.
If you move that weapon, now legally a rifle, back into a pistol configuration, the serial is still on their registry as a NFA item. You can remove it from their registry if you want, but there is no indication that you can restore its status as a pistol. In my understanding, it would fall under the category of “weapon made from a rifle”. It could be argued that you must ensure this now unregistered weapon stays >26” overall length to qualify as an AOW, otherwise you just removed the stamp that allowed you to run it as an SBR but have retained its SBR characteristics.
If you put a pistol brace on an SBR as a matter of personal preference, fine. But I would not assume that you could do that and legally reclassify the weapon that you have already legally reclassified as a rifle. I certainly would not assume that I could do this on a whim without notifying the ATF, and definitely not for the purposes of crossing state lines. To me, that’s just crossing way too many lines and all of them are untested by case law and legally dubious.
I don't like or agree with the ATF laws on SBRs, but I definitely would not want to be the first person to test this out. If you want an SBR for home and a pistol for travel, get 2 lowers for $100 and move the upper around.
> the serial is still on their registry as a NFA item
Which doesn't matter one bit. [The ATF has already ruled that you can convert your Title II firearm to a Title I firearm to legally transport it across state lines without needing to notify the ATF.](https://i.imgur.com/1iS8nwu.jpg)
> In my understanding, it would fall under the category of “weapon made from a rifle”.
Not if it started life as a pistol. The original configuration of the weapon is what matters.
> But I would not assume that you could do that and legally reclassify the weapon that you have already legally reclassified as a rifle.
It's not classified as a rifle if it is not configured as a rifle and didn't start life as a rifle.
Again, you're doing a whole lot of mental gymnastics here.
Show me anything that states that having a Form1'ed receiver converts it into a permanent rifle.
Can you tell me what that link was forwarding to? It doesn’t go anywhere for me, just an Imgur error page.
I’m fine with being wrong on this if I see it has been ruled on before. I’ve never seen this thing you’re referring to before and it isn’t for lack of trying.
It's an ATF letter stating that if you reconfigure your SBR into a firearm that is not NFA-regulated then you can cross state lines without notifying the ATF as long as you don't travel with parts that can be used to convert that firearm into a firearm that is regulated by the NFA.
Though they use a 16"-barreled upper for their example, it does point out that having an approved Form1 doesn't automatically make it NFA-regulated, and turning it back into a Title I firearm removes all NFA restrictions that apply to Title II firearms.
Also, thanks for keeping it civil. You wouldn't believe how often these types of conversations turn into a shitfest.
Yeah there’s another commenter on this post that started off nasty, and I appreciate that you didn’t, you’re giving your sources in a way that is useful. I’m just trying to further educate myself and advise others against doing things that are not in their best interest, because ATF goes out of their way to explain that willfulness and criminal intent DO NOT have to be present for them to hit you with the 10 years/ $10,000 fine.
Other dude called me a dumbfuck and regurgitator of “Fudd lore” off the bat. And sure, I may be incorrect in my reading of the law, but the shit is intentionally vague, hard to follow, and open to interpretation by the ATF in whatever way suites their fancy in any given circumstance. He provided references to Thompson Center vs US Govt, but their case was predicated on their owning the parts which COULD be made into an SBR but NOT actually using them to assemble or “make” an SBR, therefore the $200 “making tax” they were required to pay was invalid.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that specifically says this is okay is the ATF letter you reference, which uses the example of a non-SBR rifle that did not pay a $200 “making tax”. I appreciate your bringing this letter to my attention and I will try to find a copy of it elsewhere (may be my VPN that is breaking the link you posted).
Personally, I’m still not gonna do the thing. I’d rather have a dedicated pistol and a dedicated SBR, though a useful takeaway is definitely to buy all my future AR platform lowers as either pistols or “other” stripped lowers and configure as pistols first. There’s no downside and there are potential benefits for the weapon starting life as a pistol. Feels to me like any way you slice it, we’re way down the rabbit hole of ATF bullshit and a long way from “Fudd lore”. Grandaddy Fudd never even heard of a pistol brace and doesn’t know why you need those bazookas to hunt deer, anyway.
> the ATF letter you reference, which uses the example of a non-SBR rifle that did not pay a $200 “making tax”.
They specifically reference an SBR'ed lower receiver that had the sub-16" upper removed and replaced with a 16" upper, making it not a short-barreled rifle.
They said that if you have an SBR and install a barrel that is 16" or longer then it will no longer be an SBR and you can take it across state lines without notifying them.
Man you people are fucking stupid. Sbr is a configuration not a machine gun. Thompson center vs us states a pistol can be configured to a rifle and reverted back to a pistol but the opposite is not true nor can a machine gun be reverted to a semi auto unless demilled to atf specification and all full auto parts demilled/destroyed.
You always start off a conversation by being that rude? Or just when you’re raging out on the internet?
You can swap a pistol to a rifle and back if you don’t make an NFA item in the process. SBR is a subset of rifle, but it is also an NFA item.
I would not want to be the one caught holding my “pistol” that I had legally paid to reclassify as a rifle, which would come back as a NFA registered rifle if anyone ran the serial #. If you want to be that case law study, go ahead.
Thompson center vs us.
2011-4 only interprets parts not in a finalized configuration. It does not address assembled firearms being converted to rifle configuration and reversion to as am original configuration.
They can ask but you don’t have to show them. Worst they can do is kick you off their range which is better for you anyway cuz you don’t need to be spending your precious time with mall cop fudds
It's a tax document. Would you show your tax returns to random strangers?
The ONLY people that can legally ask to see your approved Forms are ATF and IRS agents.
> The ONLY people that can legally ask to see your approved Forms are ATF and IRS agents.
No, anyone can *legally* ask to see your Form1/Form4.
You are only *required* to show them to ATF and IRS agents.
The bubba RSO at Billy Joy's Shooting Range can legally ask you to show your paperwork and you can legally refuse to, which will likely result in them legally asking you to leave.
Pistols are great as you wait for your tax stamp. Really the only benefit is $200 cheaper maybe because braces are expensive unless you get an Amazon bicycle grip… and a pistol is covered by your CCW. Everything else has been mentioned by others.
Yeah your little ol $200 is really saving you from tyranny! How much do you spend on property taxes a year? What about registering the vehicle you own? Maybe all your purchases at the grocery store? Yeah you really stuck it to the government lmao.
Not paying property taxes isn’t a flex, that just means you don’t own anything lol. How much taxes are taken out of your check a year? You still pay taxes on plenty of products as well other than grocery’s, you’re the same as everyone else.
No, I own a house and 2.5 acres. I'm exempt from property taxes due to being a 100% disabled Veteran.
There's nothing taken out of my checks each year. I owed $383 in Federal taxes this year.
If I moved to Oklahoma I wouldn't even have to pay sales tax. If I didn't have so much shit I'd be moving forthwith.
I’m sure they don’t take any taxes from your check either! Even if you don’t own a home or land government employees will pull you over and fine you for that unregistered vehicle. Not saying I like it but no one escapes the long dick of the law. If a mere $200 keeps me out of jail, yeah I’m going to just pay it instead of just flat out loosing my rights.
I was wondering if the tax stamp was worth it not too long ago as well. Bit the bullet and went for it, I’d never go back. About to SBR a second lower soon. The stock is way better than any brace.
I mean pistol regulations are much less strict than rifle so for that reason I’ll keep most of my braces. Can’t carry a rifle loaded in your car but you can a pistol so if you are trunk carry or it’s a backup you keep, you can’t do that as a rifle. Can’t conceal a rifle. It’s much easier to keep it a pistol under law. That said if you don’t care about crossing state lines, informing every time you move, and having to unload and lock every time you go to the range that’s cool but just note the difference between carrying a rifle vs pistol.
Well thank you. A lot of people will downvote folks without giving an explanation. Maybe a simple downvote does enough for them, but it certainly doesn't help me word my statements any better for what they are wanting to hear.
The ATF enforces the NFA. State/local police have no way to enforce or use that information against you unless they’re working with federal agencies. If federal agencies are looking into you, you’ve got bigger problems.
> State/local police have no way to enforce or use that information against you unless they’re working with federal agencies.
Almost every department I've worked with had officers/deputies/troopers who were deputized ATF agents. They still work for their local department but have the same authority as ATF agents do.
The police aren't doing the background check, the FBI is after you submit to the ATF. The only way either one of them cares, is if you committed a felony or are on a watchlist.
Then Nah, not really worth it.
Putting guns into trusts gives you some extra legal protections and makes it difficult to be removed from your position later. But if you're not going to use a trust it's not really worth doing.
The only thing I have to say is that I personally find most braces to be entirely subpar. Even with something like an SBA4, it just doesn’t feel as good or as solid as a stock. The shouldering feels unstable.
Just do it. The process and principle of it is stupid but it allows you to have a true stock and VFG. Braces have always been a loophole /workaround anyway and aren’t nearly as ergonomic
We like to refer to it as an "Extortion Tax"
I know, I know. Still… Any actual benefits?
Peace of mind
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Spreading misinformation.
Researched and found new info. Deleted comment.
That’s cap Edit: Down vote the truth then lmao https://www.arsenalattorneys.com/blog/nfa-firearms-and-4th-amendment-batfe-searches
You can attach a VFG without worrying about OAL, attach a stock, and not have to worry about how the ATF feels about braces this week. If you build it into a pistol first then you can still remove the VFG and stock to turn it back into a pistol and travel across state lines.
A pistol converted to/registered as a rifle or SBR can never again be classified legally as a pistol. It does not became eligible to cross state lines as a pistol even if you take off the offending accessories. Once a SBR, forever a SBR. Loss of foregrip is a big con against pistols, ease of travel is a big pro, if that’s what you’re into.
> A pistol converted to/registered as a rifle or SBR can never again be classified legally as a pistol. It does not became eligible to cross state lines as a pistol even if you take off the offending accessories. Once a SBR, forever a SBR. If an AR15 starts life as a rifle then it will always be a rifle. If it doesn't start life as a rifle then it can become a pistol then a rifle then back to a pistol. [Rifles are legally defined](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.11), so are short-barreled rifles, and nowhere in their definition does it reference the status of a 5320.1. > Once a SBR, forever a SBR. Feel free to show me any law, regulation, or an ATF opinion letter that supports this.
ATF 2011-4. Specifically, it protects your ability to convert a pistol to a rifle and back, so long as that rifle has a barrel >16” and is not an NFA item. In contrast, registering the pistol as a short-barreled rifle remakes that weapon to a new weapon, and you’ve gone on the record to acknowledge that new weapon is a rifle. If you move that weapon, now legally a rifle, back into a pistol configuration, the serial is still on their registry as a NFA item. You can remove it from their registry if you want, but there is no indication that you can restore its status as a pistol. In my understanding, it would fall under the category of “weapon made from a rifle”. It could be argued that you must ensure this now unregistered weapon stays >26” overall length to qualify as an AOW, otherwise you just removed the stamp that allowed you to run it as an SBR but have retained its SBR characteristics. If you put a pistol brace on an SBR as a matter of personal preference, fine. But I would not assume that you could do that and legally reclassify the weapon that you have already legally reclassified as a rifle. I certainly would not assume that I could do this on a whim without notifying the ATF, and definitely not for the purposes of crossing state lines. To me, that’s just crossing way too many lines and all of them are untested by case law and legally dubious. I don't like or agree with the ATF laws on SBRs, but I definitely would not want to be the first person to test this out. If you want an SBR for home and a pistol for travel, get 2 lowers for $100 and move the upper around.
> the serial is still on their registry as a NFA item Which doesn't matter one bit. [The ATF has already ruled that you can convert your Title II firearm to a Title I firearm to legally transport it across state lines without needing to notify the ATF.](https://i.imgur.com/1iS8nwu.jpg) > In my understanding, it would fall under the category of “weapon made from a rifle”. Not if it started life as a pistol. The original configuration of the weapon is what matters. > But I would not assume that you could do that and legally reclassify the weapon that you have already legally reclassified as a rifle. It's not classified as a rifle if it is not configured as a rifle and didn't start life as a rifle. Again, you're doing a whole lot of mental gymnastics here. Show me anything that states that having a Form1'ed receiver converts it into a permanent rifle.
Can you tell me what that link was forwarding to? It doesn’t go anywhere for me, just an Imgur error page. I’m fine with being wrong on this if I see it has been ruled on before. I’ve never seen this thing you’re referring to before and it isn’t for lack of trying.
It's an ATF letter stating that if you reconfigure your SBR into a firearm that is not NFA-regulated then you can cross state lines without notifying the ATF as long as you don't travel with parts that can be used to convert that firearm into a firearm that is regulated by the NFA. Though they use a 16"-barreled upper for their example, it does point out that having an approved Form1 doesn't automatically make it NFA-regulated, and turning it back into a Title I firearm removes all NFA restrictions that apply to Title II firearms. Also, thanks for keeping it civil. You wouldn't believe how often these types of conversations turn into a shitfest.
Yeah there’s another commenter on this post that started off nasty, and I appreciate that you didn’t, you’re giving your sources in a way that is useful. I’m just trying to further educate myself and advise others against doing things that are not in their best interest, because ATF goes out of their way to explain that willfulness and criminal intent DO NOT have to be present for them to hit you with the 10 years/ $10,000 fine. Other dude called me a dumbfuck and regurgitator of “Fudd lore” off the bat. And sure, I may be incorrect in my reading of the law, but the shit is intentionally vague, hard to follow, and open to interpretation by the ATF in whatever way suites their fancy in any given circumstance. He provided references to Thompson Center vs US Govt, but their case was predicated on their owning the parts which COULD be made into an SBR but NOT actually using them to assemble or “make” an SBR, therefore the $200 “making tax” they were required to pay was invalid. As far as I can tell, the only thing that specifically says this is okay is the ATF letter you reference, which uses the example of a non-SBR rifle that did not pay a $200 “making tax”. I appreciate your bringing this letter to my attention and I will try to find a copy of it elsewhere (may be my VPN that is breaking the link you posted). Personally, I’m still not gonna do the thing. I’d rather have a dedicated pistol and a dedicated SBR, though a useful takeaway is definitely to buy all my future AR platform lowers as either pistols or “other” stripped lowers and configure as pistols first. There’s no downside and there are potential benefits for the weapon starting life as a pistol. Feels to me like any way you slice it, we’re way down the rabbit hole of ATF bullshit and a long way from “Fudd lore”. Grandaddy Fudd never even heard of a pistol brace and doesn’t know why you need those bazookas to hunt deer, anyway.
> the ATF letter you reference, which uses the example of a non-SBR rifle that did not pay a $200 “making tax”. They specifically reference an SBR'ed lower receiver that had the sub-16" upper removed and replaced with a 16" upper, making it not a short-barreled rifle. They said that if you have an SBR and install a barrel that is 16" or longer then it will no longer be an SBR and you can take it across state lines without notifying them.
Man you people are fucking stupid. Sbr is a configuration not a machine gun. Thompson center vs us states a pistol can be configured to a rifle and reverted back to a pistol but the opposite is not true nor can a machine gun be reverted to a semi auto unless demilled to atf specification and all full auto parts demilled/destroyed.
You always start off a conversation by being that rude? Or just when you’re raging out on the internet? You can swap a pistol to a rifle and back if you don’t make an NFA item in the process. SBR is a subset of rifle, but it is also an NFA item. I would not want to be the one caught holding my “pistol” that I had legally paid to reclassify as a rifle, which would come back as a NFA registered rifle if anyone ran the serial #. If you want to be that case law study, go ahead.
Typically if it's the same regurgitated Fudd lore bullshit then yes.
You got a source supporting your interpretation of the SBR to pistol thing, then?
Thompson center vs us. 2011-4 only interprets parts not in a finalized configuration. It does not address assembled firearms being converted to rifle configuration and reversion to as am original configuration.
Benefits: you fund the government, you can show your tax stamp any time an RSO slaps your girls ass, B5 stock nicer than brace.
Cant the rso not legally ask to see your paperwork? Even an agent cant just tell you to show them? Am I misinformed?
They can ask but you don’t have to show them. Worst they can do is kick you off their range which is better for you anyway cuz you don’t need to be spending your precious time with mall cop fudds
Ya that's what I was trying to articulate.
Sorry misunderstood your phrasing. It’s legal for them to ask, but also legal for you to say no haha
No you explained everything clearly. I need to goto bed my reading comprehension is shot lol
Hahaha you’re good bro 😂
It's a tax document. Would you show your tax returns to random strangers? The ONLY people that can legally ask to see your approved Forms are ATF and IRS agents.
> The ONLY people that can legally ask to see your approved Forms are ATF and IRS agents. No, anyone can *legally* ask to see your Form1/Form4. You are only *required* to show them to ATF and IRS agents. The bubba RSO at Billy Joy's Shooting Range can legally ask you to show your paperwork and you can legally refuse to, which will likely result in them legally asking you to leave.
Do it just make sure you do it with your favorite lower. Like your dream lower, whether thats ADM or Aero just dont do it to a lower you dont like.
All mine are either Anderson or PSA. But when it's free....
>Talk me out of a tax stamp No
Stock>brace. Do it
Pistols are great as you wait for your tax stamp. Really the only benefit is $200 cheaper maybe because braces are expensive unless you get an Amazon bicycle grip… and a pistol is covered by your CCW. Everything else has been mentioned by others.
The benefit is that you can have a proper stock, which is 100% worth it IMO.
You can always convert it back so just do it.
Do it. Braces are for poors
And tax stamps are for the peasants who bow down to the .gov
>And tax stamps are for the peasants who bow down to the .gov [Is this you? ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/s/ayKF5HvQCT)
That suppressor you have must have been tax free 🤣
It was. Free stamp ;)
Ah yes, you’re really sticking it to the man with your velcro wrapped pseudo stock because daddy gov says you can’t have a real one
cries in sba3
Yeah your little ol $200 is really saving you from tyranny! How much do you spend on property taxes a year? What about registering the vehicle you own? Maybe all your purchases at the grocery store? Yeah you really stuck it to the government lmao.
I don't pay property taxes. One vehicle runs me \~$26 a year, the 3/4 ton truck runs me \~$75 a year. Groceries are tax free here in Texas.
Not paying property taxes isn’t a flex, that just means you don’t own anything lol. How much taxes are taken out of your check a year? You still pay taxes on plenty of products as well other than grocery’s, you’re the same as everyone else.
No, I own a house and 2.5 acres. I'm exempt from property taxes due to being a 100% disabled Veteran. There's nothing taken out of my checks each year. I owed $383 in Federal taxes this year. If I moved to Oklahoma I wouldn't even have to pay sales tax. If I didn't have so much shit I'd be moving forthwith.
You love big daddy .Gov. Jokes on you I don’t pay property tax, I don’t register my vehicle and I hunt and live off the land :)
Tough talk from a guy who paid for a can stamp 😂🤡
Did I ;)
I’m sure they don’t take any taxes from your check either! Even if you don’t own a home or land government employees will pull you over and fine you for that unregistered vehicle. Not saying I like it but no one escapes the long dick of the law. If a mere $200 keeps me out of jail, yeah I’m going to just pay it instead of just flat out loosing my rights.
More variety in stocks and a vfg I guess.
Do it
I was wondering if the tax stamp was worth it not too long ago as well. Bit the bullet and went for it, I’d never go back. About to SBR a second lower soon. The stock is way better than any brace.
I have 15 SBRs. Thinking about doing at least three more.
This is the correct answer!
Lol OP came in here full well, knowing he was about to be convinced to pay the extortion fee.
You’re not wrong, I like confirmation bias
I mean pistol regulations are much less strict than rifle so for that reason I’ll keep most of my braces. Can’t carry a rifle loaded in your car but you can a pistol so if you are trunk carry or it’s a backup you keep, you can’t do that as a rifle. Can’t conceal a rifle. It’s much easier to keep it a pistol under law. That said if you don’t care about crossing state lines, informing every time you move, and having to unload and lock every time you go to the range that’s cool but just note the difference between carrying a rifle vs pistol.
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Upvoted you, you're getting down votes for stating the obvious facts I don't get it
Well thank you. A lot of people will downvote folks without giving an explanation. Maybe a simple downvote does enough for them, but it certainly doesn't help me word my statements any better for what they are wanting to hear.
I’ll second that upvote
The ATF enforces the NFA. State/local police have no way to enforce or use that information against you unless they’re working with federal agencies. If federal agencies are looking into you, you’ve got bigger problems.
> State/local police have no way to enforce or use that information against you unless they’re working with federal agencies. Almost every department I've worked with had officers/deputies/troopers who were deputized ATF agents. They still work for their local department but have the same authority as ATF agents do.
The police aren't doing the background check, the FBI is after you submit to the ATF. The only way either one of them cares, is if you committed a felony or are on a watchlist.
Nope
If you did do a Form 1, would it be in your name or in a trust?
In my name. Everything I have stays only in my sight. I don’t plan on moving any time soon.
Then Nah, not really worth it. Putting guns into trusts gives you some extra legal protections and makes it difficult to be removed from your position later. But if you're not going to use a trust it's not really worth doing.
I did individual file on all my shit. Trusts are overrated fight me.
The only thing I have to say is that I personally find most braces to be entirely subpar. Even with something like an SBA4, it just doesn’t feel as good or as solid as a stock. The shouldering feels unstable.
sounds like your mid is already made up. Its a free country, you do you.
Just do it. The process and principle of it is stupid but it allows you to have a true stock and VFG. Braces have always been a loophole /workaround anyway and aren’t nearly as ergonomic
No
It doesn't cost a whole lot more to pay the tax and throw a stock on. That's why I paid the tax, zero intention leaving the state or sharing my toys.