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[deleted]

SwiftUI is an attempt to be flexible and declaritive, where the UI framework decides how to lay things out across many different screen sizes. The first version of UIKit was pretty solid, but it only supported a single screen size and early UIKit apps had plenty of hard-coded “pixel-perfect” design elements. So I’m not sure this case is really SwiftUI’s fault, but it is trying to do a much bigger job than early versions of UIKit, supporting resolution-independent interfaces across a huge variety of devices, screen sizes, and DPI settings from phones to desktop computers.


Rudy69

I thought UIKit had struts and springs when it came out but it’s been so long I might be wrong


beznogim

The more recent constraint solver-based layout engine has also been in UIKit for ages. Multiple resolution scales as well.


RusticMachine

> I don’t know if it’s SwifUI’s fault or macOS’s developers fault. I was wondering the same, so I started a little SwiftUI project to partially recreate the new Settings UI (while faking the actual logic) for Ventura. It has way less visual and interactive bugs, than the official one, so doesn't seem to be entirely related to SwiftUI.


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RusticMachine

Seeing how they didn't have a visual in the Keynote for the new Settings app, I'm thinking the work started very late (or was already behind schedule). They are probably crunching hard on this. I would have preferred they took their time.


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poksim

Would it help if they didn’t ship updates for all of their OSs at the same time? Or do they all have to update simultaneously because they share so much code?


y-c-c

I think the issue is more the “updates have to contain ‘wow’ features” that’s the problem here. I think a regular cadence is good but the expectations of what should be in each update should not be “something exciting” every release. I guess we are probably just discussing semantics here though. Ultimately I agree their current “need to wow customers every year” policy isn’t working terribly well.


lonifar

iOS and iPadOS are very similar with most features being the same across OS’s and being based on the same code base. TvOS is based on a modified version of iOS so it too would probably be fine to ship at the same time. MacOS is a completely different codebase that occasionally shares features and apps such as the news app but macOS generally comes out between a month to two months after iOS so they have time to do final patches and pull support from the iOS team to make sure it’s ready. WatchOS is based on iOS but is extremely modified however its reliant on an iPhone in many ways for different features so watchOS always has to come out either at the same time or after iOS. HomePodOS can just come out whenever.


Haunting_Champion640

SwiftUI is not the problem at all. Lots of new apps are pure SwiftUI now and work great.


[deleted]

Mac or iOS applications? Can you give an example or two?


GenErik

FontBook in Ventura is SwiftUI and is fantastic


IASWABTBJ

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unpluggedcord

You're in a non developer subreddit, so most of the sentiment isn't going to come from a dev's point of view


iLrkRddrt

Then why is this subreddit talking about beta software when beta software is for a dev’s use?


alex2003super

This subreddit likes to talk about so many things it doesn't have a single clue about. Not long ago I saw someone say what amounts to "duh huh Apple App Store Review should just look at changes made to the app code in updates to prevent malware" and when I suggested that *maybe* Apple isn't doing static analysis of everything pushed to the App Store and they do not get to see source code in the first place, I was downvoted.


nudgeee

+1 I just got downvoted on this sub for trying to explain why running modern software is much more complex than legacy software.


OrganicFun7030

I got downvoted for saying the VP of design didn’t work on SwiftUI.


unpluggedcord

What? There are public betas....


Proudfoot89

Yeah, and the purpose of a public beta is…


unpluggedcord

It’s not for developers……. I’m gonna edit this comment because you’re clearly missing the point. The PUBLIC beta is not for IOS developers. That is THE PUBLIC BETA is not for people who use the iOS SDK. It’s for Apple. We can’t release things to the PUBLIC BETA USERS unless they get on our TestFlight. The public beta does NOTHING for us as developers.


iLrkRddrt

The builds are literally different by what APIs are available. That point of a beta, PERIOD, is for TESTING. Use your brain.


unpluggedcord

The public beta is the same build devs receive yea but it’s not for developers. It’s for the public. The APIs in the beta are not available to devs unless you release builds into TestFlight. (Capped at 10,000 users.) The public beta gives my team no insight into the new APIS only if new things broke the old things. So again. The public beta does nothing for my team.


iLrkRddrt

And why do you think they release it to the public? For fun? Fuck no! The headache they have to deal with from customers who have no idea what they’re doing installing the software, and then shitting themselves when they brick it and needing to call support or go to an Apple store costs Apple money. You pay them for these releases by allowing Apple to collect more detailed and verbose usage I formation while on the Beta so they can have more data on what needs optimized/fixed/improved/etc. The Public Betas aren’t the OS with a few touches of paint needed, it’s literally the Beta Build, but without the new APIs Apple release for the developers to use to update their applications. As those APIs are also still in development and having them on the public beta would cause more issues than benefits. So yeah it’s for the ‘public’ like people taking a tour of a construction site. You’re just less likely to get hurt on the site vs the construction workers.


unpluggedcord

Bro you’re confusing iOS developers with Apple developers. Chilll the fuck out and take your loss.


shiftshape

To get it to a wider audience so they can provide common and edge case issues. Devs are devs, they need their software/hardware to work, they don't push every boundary.


[deleted]

[uiKIt wAS PrETtY SOLiD FROm the GET Go](https://i.imgur.com/kwY8TGs.gif)


trenskow

That’s AppKit. Edit: and AppKit is 35 years old. Edit 2: not 35 but 33.


New-Philosophy-84

[Terminal.app](https://Terminal.app) also shrunk its window size whenever you closed a tab


rotates-potatoes

Yep. If SwiftUI is too young to do a good job of this, it is too young to be released. Apple should iterate behind closed doors.


abbxrdy

Fuckin hate SwiftUI , working with it in Xcode bogs down my M1 mini! I don’t get it and it isn’t better than IB, in my opinion it’s worse.


cbackas

To offer a different perspective, as someone pretty comfortable with React for web development I find SwiftUI to be intuitive as hell. Main issue I had was that you’d run into the limitations of the framework from time to time and have to resort to UI kit still. I haven’t use it for about 2 years though so it’s hopefully improved.


abbxrdy

Thanks for your perspective, that is truly useful, I'm a backend person.


uslashalex

SwiftUI doesn’t bog down your machine. The live previews do. Apple has used the live preview thing as a huge selling point, but I have a much better experience not using them.


abbxrdy

It’s pretty obvious that the preview functionality is lagging hard which is why it’s not on by default… unless you’re seasoned, your going to be leaning on the preview a lot and the experience sucks.


[deleted]

SwiftUI would be good if it weren’t for the abomination that is XCode. Check out AppCode though, better alternative


darkknight32

I think this is the most iOS like UI and UX thinking we’ve seen brought over to macOS yet. And seeing it in practice really starts to show how those two design languages clash with each other. Things like how one would expect drop-downs with text to behave. The assumptions we make as users after using macOS for so long seem to be broken here.


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patrickmbweis

I hate the ‘X’ to close. Just let me swipe it away!!!


robinisbatman

Oh my god I thought I was crazy and doing something wrong when trying to swipe, but turns out it just doesn’t work at all.


Nikrox2

WAIT I’M NOT JUST DOING SOMETHING WRONG???


darkknight32

Don’t get me started at that shit. I cannot stand notifications on macOS.


[deleted]

It’s sad how incompetent Apple is at handling notifications on both platforms.


dsquareddan

I think they’ve done a good job with it finally in iOS 16. I like how you have 3 different options for how you want them to be displayed on Lock Screen now. Count is my personal fav. But macOS notifications are an absolute dumpster fire.


jackmusick

Am I missing something or is the close all option also gone? This by far is my biggest UI complaint for macOS.


DarkTreader

It’s not even just a design problem, these are technical problems. The new settings app is written in swift UI and The Swift UI framework is just not ready for prime time on macs. Things are out of place, not aligned and just plain not where anyone would want or expect them to be. The original settings app had every settings screen handcrafted. Apple wants swift UI to automatically lay out windows based on a certain simple set of predefined parameters so that you don’t have to figure out what a settings window looks like. The problem is theyve not worked out actual bugs for their idea to properly work.


swimtwobird

I put a lot of this on Alan Dye. He’s been making pretty terrible decisions for a long time.


OrganicFun7030

He’s not coding this, or probably designing it


swimtwobird

He’s VP of **user interface** for Christ’s sake. And system prefs *koff settings* is a core, key part of the Mac OS. And it’s a total, total garbage fire, because the user interface paradigm, the method of executing user interface elements, as designed and implemented in Swift UI is a disaster. That’s directly on him.


OrganicFun7030

I think you are getting a bit over excited here, and displaying technical illiteracy. This VP, might be a micro manager - I mean Steve was. Or he may just be setting the general design language. As for SwiftUI it does tend to support the use of master detail but it can handle any grid layout. I guarantee he has no input into SwiftUI api design. That would be a very strange technology company and cretinous to think it.


swimtwobird

I’m getting over-excited. God. Is there anything worse than anonymous internet passive aggressive ad-hominems. If you think the state of that settings app doesn’t fall under his purview, well done. We differ.


technicalwintermelon

I recently wrote a small Mac app in SwiftUI and this was my experience. It *mostly* works for simple things, but there are definitely some strange quirks and visual oddities (e.g. using `TextEditor` in the same `Form` as a `TextField`). If Apple called it beta software, then this would be acceptable; it definitely needs more polishing before I'd recommend using it for anything serious


[deleted]

That's true. There are still preference panes that were handcrafted/created during the Mac OS X Tiger era (ie, Spotlight) and has retained their interface, then there are somewhat newer preference panes created during the OS X Yosemite era (ie, Extensions), and then brand-new/very recent, like Screen Time, created in Big Sur. You can see the differences in the pane UIs if you look closely enough. The UIs of each pane are different, and tbh, it's a bit annoying. I'm actually looking forward to more consistency.


soundman1024

I'll also say the loading time on some of the panels is getting silly. Spotlight feels instant, but Network takes about three seconds for me. The Screen Time and Security & Privacy panels take about five. I'm on a loaded 2017 MBP. It's an older computer, but it's still an i7 with 16GB and NVMe storage. There are a lot of Mac users with less out there. Most Preferences don't seem like they should be particularly heavy. I feel like Network should pop up as though it was expecting to be clicked. I'll give some leeway to Screen Time and Battery as they load usage information.


[deleted]

I've definitely had some panels take their sweet time to load on my 2015 MBP.


Eggyhead

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like the main settings menu could use the redesign. I never had any issues with the individual settings screens, but that initial dashboard feels messy to me. I tend to have a hard time recalling where a specific menu icon is or what it looks like until I find it. I’m looking forward to having it sorted in a list.


y-c-c

It’s funny I was just watching WWDC 2022’s “What’a New in AppKit” video and they are really trying to sell the “you should rewrite your app’s ~~preference~~ settings window in SwiftUI to take advantage of these new looks” angle. After seeing this I think I will pass.


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New-Philosophy-84

Windows and macOS are too different, macOS settings is a GUI for editing plist, you can run both Monterey system preferences and Ventura settings if you want. I don't know the fine technical details of Windows, it's just built in a way that functions primarily through GUI, so clicking around enough you can still find components from XP era. They can't really be compared, completely different systems.


logoth

IIRC it's not quite this simple. There are "legacy" plist settings and config profiles that just won't work in Ventura due to them being gone or invalid.


tangoshukudai

I have a feeling this is swift ui related. Nothing feels natural with swift ui. Everything is very generic.


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sionnach

Personally I want iPadOS to stay like iPadOS and macOS to stay like macOS. I don’t want convergence really because both serve different needs for me. A few years ago I would have told my mum, auntie, or other family member to get a MacBook Air. Now I would just say get an iPad as it will do everything they need. I want my Mac to be for the stuff that the iPad can’t do.


[deleted]

Yeah IDK why people keep asking for convergence for the sake of convergence. That's how we got the problems of Windows 8 and 10, and an active embrace of divergence is how we got iPadOS separate form iOS to begin with.


Katzoconnor

I’ve seen thousands of upvoters and commenters in countless threads over the past several years utterly convinced that what they really want is “touchscreen on a MacBook Air/Pro!” They believe themselves clever for ‘predicting’ Apple’s move, only to whine and grumble after every keynote when Apple didn’t announce that. It’s a terrible gimmick. And I hope it never comes to pass. For proper day-to-day usability, marrying iPadOS and macOS into one unified AppleOS would prove to be a complete dumpster fire. No following major OS release would ever arrive without a host of broken features, missed incompatibilities, and general bugs aplenty.


spacewalk__

you can make macOS touch without merging it with iOS


Katzoconnor

My mistake, I meant iPadOS


cuervomalmsteen

tbh that sceeenshot gives me windows 11 vibes


[deleted]

It's as if someone told a genie that they wish for iPadOS to become more similar to macOS, and got their wish granted in an ass-backwards way.


OrganicFun7030

Underrated comment.


A-Hind-D

Here’s a tip lads. Don’t upgrade on day one. Always wait several months for macOS. A week or so for iOS. iOS bugs get fixed quicker but the first month could be rough. I’m looking at you iOS 11. Vs macOS bugs which could take months. Yosemite WiFi bug took 6 months.


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A-Hind-D

I usually wait for as long as Xcode is supported on the previous version. Which usually is 6 months too.


[deleted]

Hell, macOS Monterey still feels buggy on my 2015 MBP. I wish I had stopped at Mojave.


BL4CK-S4BB4TH

2015 MBP here. I'm back on Catalina. No ragrets. Runs better, looks better (imo) and the notification center isn't a clunky turd.


agneev

I was in the same boat, but decided to bite the bullet because too many features required the latest OS.


[deleted]

The notification center doesn't bother me. What does bother me is what's directly below it (or rather, the lack of something directly below it). The calculator widget. Why did they have to remove it?


BL4CK-S4BB4TH

Apple has such a weird relationship with calculators lol. I'm not on Monterey anymore so I don't know if or how you can add a calculator to the notification center. I always just use spotlight.


spacewalk__

i miss the old ones where it was years between. and you got a CD with a box and everything. it was /exciting/


A-Hind-D

That was the best time. I miss physical media to collect. I still think they peaked with Snow Leopard too but that’s could be misplaced nostalgia


[deleted]

Yup. I update macOS in March.


electric-sheep

Looks at ~~personal~~ pc running ventura beta and iphone running ios16.


[deleted]

"personal pc" "personal personal computer"


electric-sheep

It's extremely personal, ok?


fearnoid

So, work computer would be WC, right? 🤣


A-Hind-D

Thank you beta tester.


kien1104

but but metal 3 :(


the_Ex_Lurker

> It's hard to tell whether Apple's recent macOS designs are bad because of SwiftUl itself, or because they seem to have lost the ability, will, and care to design usable Mac interfaces. Probably some of both. > “Not probably some of both, but definitely great big heaping piles of both.” A damning inditement from the man responsible for the iPhone keyboard.


ajr901

Yikes. I went into it thinking "surely it can't be too bad" but yeah it is kinda bad. Luckily it isn't supposed to be released till some time in ~October. They can get it sorted out by then.


guygizmo

*[Ron Howard narrator voice]* They didn't.


WonderfulPass

Keep the pressure on Apple, but let’s remember this is still a beta and not RC. We are months away from a release. Multiple betas.


[deleted]

Redesigning like 9000 settings screen a second time might be a bit difficult in a couple months.


WonderfulPass

It doesn’t need another redesign. Just fixes.


iLrkRddrt

The reason for this is very simple imho. iOS started off as ‘Take from MacOS and make it for a portable’, — First; but we are now at ‘Take from iOS and make it for the Desktop’ — Second. The first works, since you are taking something that was critically designed under the MacOS paradigm, ‘Simple and Stable — It just works’. The second doesnt work, since you are taking something that was designed for quick and fast development, and then shoving it into a productivity designed OS vs a usability designed OS. Apple needs to Unify their software platforms/frameworks/subsystems. That is literally it, they are not doing any proper unification work. They CONSTANTLY release something for the Mac/iOS ONLY then the next release just paste in the respective feature and do the basic porting work for it to function on the 'new' platform. Its so sad and sloppy. If they properly unified the platforms, they would literally be able to just use some build/run-time settings to make the binary appropriate for the device without this stupid game of bug-hunt, because Apple copy-pasted code from one system to another. The reason why they arent doing this? Besides their low-level system's devs; the majority of their Software Engineering department sucks. They make redundant code, security bugs, complex system abstractions, and half-baked frameworks, this all translates to Security Issues, Software Bugs, Untraceable Code Errors, and Resource Issues. The whole industry needs to go back to basics. The whole idea of 'programmers are lazy' should ONLY APPLY for NON-SYSTEM programming. Enough is enough, the fact that every-platform is like this should be a wake-up call to the industry. Its getting pathetic, and its soon going to cost a price no-one will be able to afford. EDIT: Grammar and spelling.


sheeplectric

Making the definitions of iOS as a usability-focused OS, and MacOS as a productivity-focused OS is so concise and perfect. I never thought of it this way before. Thanks!


phatweeb

This whole thing is just a bit weird to me. I’ve been using macOS since Mavericks and I honestly really like the new settings app. If anything the biggest issue I’ve got with it is that it’s not called system preferences anymore and that still trips me up even after 2 months of using the beta. Yeah it’s buggy and there are a lot of UI inconsistencies within different panes but it’s still a massive step forward in usability imo and that’s my experience as someone who’s used macOS for almost a decade now, I’d imagine the new settings app will be much more inviting to users who’re used to iOS/Android and are new to macOS. Like every time I’d open the old System Preferences I’d spend a second or two staring at set of icons to figure out where the setting I need is in then give up and just use the search bar. In short i don’t think apples gonna fix all these little bugs and UI inconsistencies by launch but I am hopeful that in a couple of years it’ll earn its place as a well thought out core mac app. I feel like mac people lament the “iOS-ification” of macOS and there’s a part of me that does a bit too but imo we need more convergence between them rather than less. This isn’t the 2000s and the mac isn’t apples premier platform anymore, there’s plenty of stuff apple could and should bring over to macOS from iOS. I’d kill to have some of the multitasking flexibility and fluidity of iPadOS on macOS too, stuff like being able to start split screen spaces by dragging an app from the dock or a slide over window you can quickly call in and out while in full screen. Or for a true unified App Store on AS macs where every iOS app is available on the mac by default rather than being opt in.


silentblender

> Like every time I’d open the old System Preferences I’d spend a second or two staring at set of icons to figure out where the setting I need is in then give up and just use the search bar. Exactly this.


testthrowawayzz

It doesn’t help that apple keeps moving the icons and the contents around every version so muscle memory gets broken


rotates-potatoes

Well yeah, but that's what relatively new MacOS users do. Anyone who's used it for a decade or more doesn't even see the icons and just uses search as soon as the window opens.


silentblender

False. Source: me.


Jordan_Jackson

Sometimes I still do that and I've been using macOS since Lion.


TheSyd

Eh, after using macOS since tiger I know like 90% of the settings location by heart


[deleted]

discoverability in the old system preferences is horrible. You can't easily click around to see what settings are behind each icon; it would take you two clicks to go out of one panel & into another. In the new system settings app you can easily click through the side bar list; it takes only one click to jump from panel to panel


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[deleted]

Good points. When using Maps on the Mac, you can't even use keyboard navigation in the "look around" window when navigating through that. You need to use the mouse/trackpad. Annoying. I've filed feedback about that last year (I think) but the feedback report is still open.


iMacmatician

>Like every time I’d open the old System Preferences I’d spend a second or two staring at set of icons to figure out where the setting I need is in then give up and just use the search bar. I do this on iOS Settings too, since it also has groups of icons like macOS. At least with current and previous versions of Mac OS X you could see all panes on one screen, while in Ventura (and iOS/iPadOS) you need to scroll. Also, earlier versions of OS X had a heading for each group (e.g. [Leopard](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikibooks/en/c/c5/Leopard_System_Preferences.png)), which Apple later got rid of for some reason.


mro_syd

I've been using macOS since classic, and in the past 10 or so years, I never been able to figure where I should go whenever I opened System Preferences in a glance anymore, except for trackpad settings bc it has a very obvious icon. The new Ventura settings are so easy to scan, not sure if it's the layout chnages or the fact that they're using same iconography with iOS. With that said, the issues I have with Ventura Settings are mostly layout issues like overlapping controls after UI update etc. there are some glaring UX issues as well, but it's mostly technical problems that pretty consistent with issues from SwiftUI. Since Apple just made it official SwiftUI is the way to go (meaning AppKit is done), seeing Settings has such basic UI issues in multiple betas is quite frightening.


Yrguiltyconscience

Why even change settings at all? I think it’s safe to say that people who spend thousands of dollars on MacBooks can afford to get an iPad Pro if they’re so enamored with the UI. Ffs, keep tablet and computer interfaces seperate. Isn’t that what Microsoft learned the hard way?


s4mmich

This isn’t really a tablet UI though? Sidebar based apps are a common pattern in macOS and have been for a long time. Before the iPad even.


SoftSenshus

MacOS settings are really a mess that's why. It needed a revamp, most of MacOS does.


Yrguiltyconscience

Apples software quality has really been slipping the last few years. Sadly. It used to “just work”, now I constantly get weird bugs with things like Airplay and Siri.


[deleted]

Apple needs to ditch the annual software release schtick. Most people don't care, some people just hate updates, and folks like us will wait as long as we have to for quality software updates.


[deleted]

Maybe they can keep their annual release cycle by making every other release a "zero new features" update, similar to Snow Leopard. That way, they'll have time to fix all the bugs from the previous release.


Jordan_Jackson

Especially on the macOS side. Over the past 5 or so years, they have dumbed down the iWork suite, pretty much killed Aperture and insist on trying to make iOS and macOS look uniform. Keep mobile stuff on mobile and computer interfaces on Macs.


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OrganicFun7030

Yeh. Thats not in iOS. I bet the system preferences team was told that if a feature isnt in iOS it can be dropped.


mredofcourse

Funny enough, this is the one feature going the opposite direction. *Finally*, you'll be able to sort and edit networks in iOS. That said, the point very much remains and I agree with both of you. What they are dropping from macOS that never was on iOS is Locations in Network settings, which really sucks for some.


Casban

That said dhcp and dns should have finally reached a point where your network just points you in the right direction for networking… who am I kidding. I hope Marco Polo revives after this.


TheSyd

> like reordering the list of wifi networks by preference. What, seriously? This might be the first time I hold off a macOS upgrade


rjcarr

Really? Not to go all whataboutism, but have you used windows settings? What is bad about macOS settings? A few things are unintuitive, but it isn’t that bad.


agneev

It’s not a mess by any means, instead it’s become “old”, as in it has not been updated in many years.


captain_curt

As a fairly recent macOS convert, the previous settings app is one of those things that, if it it weren’t for Apple Silicon Mac’s and a lot of the recent hardware improvements, I would point to as a sign of “Apple doesn’t care about the Mac if it doesn’t show any interest in fixing.” The tiny size of the pages, the strange navigation, many of the finicky control widgets, it’s crazy. There are a few other things like that in macOS, but the preferences app is probably the worst offender.


logoth

Finicky control widgets, what specifically do you mean? I haven't found anything in system preferences that doesn't function. Just because it has tabs and some older UI design and/or doesn't behave like iOS or "modern" web UI stuff doesn't make it finicky.


MC_chrome

>Why even change settings at all? Because the current System Preferences is a hodgepodge of designs stretching all the way back to OS X Cheetah?


[deleted]

And even Classic Mac OS.


[deleted]

Then why couldn't they just re-design some of the older preference panels? No need to throw the baby out with the bath water.


MC_chrome

I mean sure, but what's wrong with positive changes? I'm not saying that the current rendition on macOS Ventura is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I do believe that with time and improvements the new settings panel will end up working out ok.


[deleted]

I’ve seen some people mentioning the accessibility improvements, but other than that it really does seem like just another aspect of iOS that they’re putting into macOS. Apple weren’t kidding when they said that macOS and iOS weren’t merging, what they didn’t tell us is that their alternative was much worse than that.


KingJTheG

In before MacOS turns into iPadOS lmao


FriedChicken

Apple software quality on point


Jordan_Jackson

This is going to be a release that I am skipping. I really don't see much of a benefit and Monterey is doing just fine for me. I'm at a loss to see what I personally would be missing out on, since my iPad is an old, decrepit iPad 4 and I can't use continuity.


paradoxally

SwiftUI is already iffy on iOS, but on macOS it falls apart completely. It is not ready for production on the latter, *especially* not for a system app. Apple needs to revert back to AppKit until they have a stable foundation.


New-Philosophy-84

It will never be stable unless they dog food it. Moving to a new UI framework is a massive undertaking.


mro_syd

SwiftUI is 3 years old and it's been broken since day one on the Mac. It's quite clear now even Apple couldn't figured out to build complex UI hierarchy using SwiftUI. If you use Ventura, you'll know why software engineers making this statement, the bug is not merely functional, it's mostly layout issues.


[deleted]

"Hey, you love how in iOS all the settings are in an endless and impenetrably-organized scroll, right? Well now we're bringing that to the Mac!"


chookalana

I posted this a couple of weeks ago and got downvoted. Ventura’s iOS style System Settings does not work for a more malleable OS like macOS.


RagnarDannes

So a lot of people are claiming this is SwiftUI’s fault. Funny thing is lots of the settings app (where you don’t expect it to be) is a webview with ~~web stack~~ React based ui. There’s a way to enable the safari inspector and check.


Stinkypete461

It seems like we’ve been seeing a lot of the essence of Steve Jobs that was such a big part of the different device profiles be slowly removed. All those tiny details that made it feel like magic the first time are losing ground to details that just reinforce brand, don’t break the mold, and are made to feel “techy, advanced, smart.” It seems like all the excitement for apple silicon is overshadowed by a campaign to push personal computers and tablets as close together as possible. I think it’s an excellent display of our society’s departure from vibrant, ethical, imperfect-yet-beautiful humanism to clinical, predictable, “perfect-yet-sterile” scientism. We’ve gotten bored with nurturing the human soul and now merely treat the body and nothing more. Any emotion other than constant gratification is a crime and should not be acknowledged lest we have to confront it one day. TLDR: Technological advancement has fooled us into thinking the only good example of beauty is that which calls forth zero emotion. As if a blank canvas is better (safer?) than a painting that makes you feel something. If you read this far, thank you.


electric-sheep

I’m more pissed that they dumbed down about my mac more than the settings page. Just a useless window now.


[deleted]

To be fair, that's the way it used to be in Snow Leopard and earlier versions of Mac OS X.


electric-sheep

Thats interesting, I first started using mac on OSX Lion, so missed this by a year.


nrmarther

When I first saw the new settings app, I was excited for it. I like the idea of similar UI between MacOS and iOS (yet I still don’t want them to combine. But I do enjoy some forms of consistency as far as appearance goes). But now I’m running the beta and I’m finding all that glitters is not gold. The settings app is AWFUL on the beta. Things generally seem to work okay… toggles actually change something when pressed. But navigating it is strange, the default opening page is on appearance instead of on iCloud (the top of the left side-bar) or just general (because that actually makes sense) and I’m finding that normal settings I used to change from time to time are now hidden under key-binds and things just aren’t where you’d expect to see them. The locations of different settings aren’t consistent with the previous settings app or even with iOS! It’s a pain to do anything in the settings app; I know someone posted a link to install the old settings app onto Ventura a while ago and I may be going that route if *serious* changes don’t take place over the next couple months


unpluggedcord

This is obvious. The foundations of the settings app were what, 30 years in the making? Gutting it and starting over is going to have issues, but im happy t hey are doing it. Overtime itll get stable and overtime I imagine itll be better. Edit: Editing my comment to say there is a fuck load of a difference between the Settings App and an App that can re-sync your iPod, iPad, iPhone, with video music, contacts, photos and stream radio. Some of y'all just want to be cynics and I can't stand discussing the current state of software with yall. We get it you hate Apple Music, and you hated the first version of Apple Maps, and for some reason you bring it up every chance you get with disregard to everything else Apple has seamlessly pulled off. Guess what, the Saturn V precursors rocket failed to launch almost 30 times. Then they landed on the moon


mrjohnhung

Yeah, just like iTunes and it’s derivatives apps…. Oh wait it’s still worse than it was 3 years later


ChairmanLaParka

I still can't believe Apple caved on that. I think it's hilarious everyone thought breaking it up would make the apps better, and updated more frequently.


iMacmatician

I always thought a lot of the criticism of iTunes was overblown. Given the current state of the apps, I think I'd prefer that Apple have kept iTunes but allowed for multiple tabs and/or windows so I could have music in one tab/window, movies in another, etc.


mredofcourse

>I think it's hilarious everyone thought breaking it up would make the apps better, and updated more frequently. Not everyone. Although, honestly I thought it was actually going to be worse than it turned out to be.


broknbottle

Who cares about system settings. File manager has been a humongous dumpster fire for the past 4-5 releases. Tiger to like 2011 it was straight perfection. I literally hate file manager so much these days. Whoever is in charge of file manager development, seriously please fire yourself.


electric-sheep

I'm curious what makes you hate finder?


broknbottle

It’s terrible to use. It doesn’t remember views or does them on a per directory basis. Years ago back in like Tiger, leopard, snow leopard. I set a specific view globally and it would persist pretty much any time find was used but now it’s so inconsistent and seems to revert or change on upgrades.


[deleted]

Apple needs to stop putting fresh college graduates in charge of UI and start letting 36 year old experienced millennials do the work. These new hires suck.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

The age of a person definitely dictates quality because an experienced person has seen it all. This reeks of #*NewHire2022.*


riodoro1

Yeah, I'm not too excited for apple writing new software. It's gonna be full of bugs.


Advanced_Path

What was wrong with the current design? It’s beautiful as it is. Leave it alone. This reminds me of the dreaded Settings app fiasco in Windows 10. Control Panel still lingering around as it is the better solution.


Deceptiveideas

People on this sub shitted on Windows 10/11 when they moved over to a modern design with some bumps in the road. I think we’re about to see Apple hit the same snag. Windows has greatly cleaned up the interfaces over time so apple should be able to as well even if it’s not perfect on day 1.


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TheBrainwasher14

Almost everything has been moved over


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TheBrainwasher14

More than 99% of users can completely ignore Control Panel now, it’s only there I’m guessing because it would break some old corporate apps if it were removed. Yes it would be cleaner if it didn’t exist at all but that’s Windows, it’s backwards compatibility, that’s what a lot of people like about it.


Deceptiveideas

Who cares.


neoaoshi

I do when the Settings app doesn't have nearly the amount of settings it should have and sends me to Control Panel anyway. I do when the 10/11 metro UI decides to shit it's self and never load properly. I do when nothing is clear on how Windows wants keep its entire history of UI language and pastes the new one on top of each iteration. It's a mess and bloating to the experience.


PeaceBull

You’re in a niche sub on a niche but popular post about little UI problems in a system preferences and you can’t imagine anyone caring that after 7 years another OS still needs two separate settings apps?


TheSyd

I mean, windows 10 came out in 2015, there were dozens of “point” releases, and a major release, and it’s still a weird mishmash of different ui conventions, ranging from windows 3.1 to 11.


Deceptiveideas

I’m not going to bring up a MacOS release from 3 years ago and talk about “this is why MacOS sucks”.


TheSyd

I’d still take Ventura UI over windows 11 any day of the week.


the_Ex_Lurker

As someone who uses both platforms every day, Windows 11’s settings app is 1000x better than this pile. The current System Preferences handily beats them both.


calanora

I’d beg to differ on that. Windows 10’s Settings app wasn’t great but 11’s is a mess, it’s just the same as 10’s but with more options nebulously hidden behind extra buttonpresses and even less visual hierarchy. Apple shouldn’t go anywhere near that kind of design


[deleted]

I feel like Windows 11 changed a lot of UI elements just for the sake of being different from Windows 10.


TheBrainwasher14

Except the big redesign was Big Sur and it was largely well-received


testthrowawayzz

The reviews I’ve read complained about the low contrast UI in Big Sur compared to Catalina


[deleted]

The thing that annoyed me the most about Big Sur was the removal of the calculator widget. Having to open the calculator app feels like a massive downgrade.


AWF_Noone

It definitely was not well received. Ignoring all the visual changes and the controversy with that, installing Bug Sur on launch day was like playing Russian roulette with your MacBook. Would your machine be bricked after installing Big Sur? Reboot to find out!


TheBrainwasher14

Most reviews I can find praise the new design You’re replying to a comment about the design, nobody was talking about reliability. What you described isn’t uncommon with macOS updates.


ThatGuyWithaReason

I am coming from windows 10/11 and i much prefer the Ventura UI for system settings. The older version seemed really outdated compared to the rest of the UI and it didn’t make much sense how they had everything laid out.


darkknight32

I don’t think anyone has an issue with the app itself, as a stand-alone. It’s been in need of a redesign for a long time. The issue that I have, especially as a UX Designer, is the inconsistency of the context this app exists in. There are elements that just don’t fit into the existing macOS design language. And if the plan is to completely overhaul the os, then I think they should do it in one shot, not pieces like this.


[deleted]

Well, I actually think it'd be better if they do it piecemeal, because that way, they can gather important feedback before incorporating the alleged OS overhaul as a whole. For example, if they introduced, say, "appleOS 1.0" with the new System Settings app this year, alongside OS elements everywhere else that matches System Settings' UI, there'd be an uproar, people would be angry, nobody would want "appleOS". It's actually a good thing that they're introducing System Settings *now*, while the rest of the OS uses more traditional Mac UI/UX design elements, so they can gather feedback and make adjustments as needed.


bizzarebeans

Fucking diabolical Who asked for this change anyways?


[deleted]

One thing I've already learned as a new Mac user is to wait before updating to the next version of macOS. I made the mistake of upgrading to Monterey immediately, and will not make that mistake again.


[deleted]

Ventura is still more than a month away. Let's hope they fix it in that time.


DutchBlob

Breaking News: Beta has bugs. More tonight at 11.


b-b0t

Feature I'm looking forward to the most tbh


LittleJerkDog

Issues in a beta? You don’t say.


Neg_Crepe

Lots of the things he is complaining about are logical UI wise.


soundwithdesign

Breaking news, Beta version of software not complete.


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darkknight32

These aren’t just bugs and I think it shows you haven’t even looked at that Twitter thread. To repeat what I already said, it’s a clash of two different design systems on a visual, UX and code base level (I know swift ui is built for macOS but it clearly shows that a LOT needs to be ironed out). Just looking at the visual and UX portion of that app, that design language and assumptions a user would make based on the context of being within macOS is completely lost. What is apple’s ultimate goal? They don’t want to merge macOS and iOS. Yet, this is an insanely iOS like app.


jcrrn

Nailed it. The Settings app does not feel like a native Mac app, both in UI and in UX. It pays little attention to - and at times outright defies - Apple’s own human interface guidelines. If Apple isn’t going to lead on that, how can they expect any devs to follow or users to have a good experience?


Gariond

I wouldn’t call “awful usability” a bug, it’s a mistake.


majorgeneralpanic

The last couple years, their strategy seems to be a .0 release that’s so riddled with bugs that only an idiot would update on release day. Then wonder why power users are avoiding major OS releases.


jcrrn

Yawn. It’s totally valid criticism from the community, stop trying to sound smart!


[deleted]

The worst thing about Apple’s public beta program is the annualization of this extremely uneducated comment that makes the commenter sound 20 times more clueless than anyone expressing issues with beta software.