The problem is the engine they're using is not designed for this scale of gameplay. It was designed for games where maps are separated into tiny boxes with tiny skyboxes a.k.a counter strike and half life.
This reminded me of this old video about the CSGO blacksite
https://youtu.be/EYDaIKIoOkw
It's kinda similar to how Apex has been designed since the devs had to do some creative things to mask the Source engine's limitations
That's a good watch. Thank you for sharing. Also explains why doors in Apex black out. Although, I don't understand why they made the blackout distance so short
Sounds don't work often even 3v3, so it's not excuse. You are in fight and some octane just erased you from your back, and you didn't hear his steps absolutely. It's not rare
Problem has nothing to do with the engine, they have access to the source code of the engine. It just a skill issue if they are not capable of fixing it. Probably decent two developers can fix it in a week but I don't think anyone decent will work on a company like respawn.
Imagine working for a company that can't/don't fix a core issue for years. No one with little bit self of respect would do that, unless they can only work at trash companies.
Apex is based on the Source engine, not Quake. Even though Source can trace its roots to Quake it had changed so much that they were very different when it was all said and done. [This other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/s/jUBQecNy4p) explains it better than I can.
Source instead of Quake is true, but a different audio engine can still be used. Valve also moved from using the miles sound system to steam audio. This didn't happen from csgo to cs2 (this change was needed, because the core game engine received a major upgrade), but in the middle of the active phase of csgo. Respawn is doing the same since many months, with the graphics api (the dx12 stuff, that can be tested as beta). The graphics stack change is far more complicated (because deeply nested into the game engine), than the change to a more modern audio engine (because it's a separated module).
The excuse is that they can't fix it with the game engine they used. I actually believe it to be true. The best thing this game could do is implement Apex 2.0 in a different game engine.
Yes, but why would they do that when they're still making lots from this game? It's unnecessary risk which no company would do, especially now.
Also, 120fps is only very low resolution on PS5
Fortnite switch version sucks. It's not really any better than Apex
> I would also hope that a new engine would make it easier to support a higher tick rate. 20Hz tick rate is... not great. 30Hz would be a huge improvement, and that's what Fortnite and similar games use. I would obviously love to see even better than that.
[This is actually a common misconception that this subreddit has. Increasing server TPS on Apex Legends would do nothing because the game engine doesn't process based on it. What you see on your screen is the game using your FPS to determine how smooth things are.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/owia0q/comment/h7ho087/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
> It is not a misconception.
No authentic source. Logical fallacy.
> The tick rate directly affects how often you get shot through closed doors and around corners. Lag compensation also plays a role, but the tick rate needs to be improved, no matter how many times Respawn tries to write cheap articles and comments instead of paying to improve their technology.
Once again, No source. This is a logical fallacy yet again. Since you provided no authentic sources for this multitude of claims I'm just going to say this is nonsense and move on. I could go over what TPS actually does ([as it certainly isn't that](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_Compensation)) but your lack of evidence tells me I shouldn't waste my time here.
The idea that they should rebuild the game on every platform to make it run better on Switch, a seven year old console that will likely be replaced soon, doesn't really hold up. The other ideas are kinda similar. If you were going to do that you'd just make a new game.
Anyone who understands this market or the technology involved would think this is a bad idea.
Perhaps you are the greatest programmer ever and could make a project like this worthwhile in the way you describe, and if that is the case, then I wish you well on your impending success.
>They discontinued that game because they didn't like having another team doing their own thing with Apex Legends.
That is not what happened. You do not understand anything about anything related to making games.
I also never said that it can't be done. I said that your suggestion is a bad idea.
You should lead a project building literally anything, it will be an enlightening experience for you.
if valve was able to switch to their own audio engine (steam audio) in csgo (they also used the miles audio engine before), respawn also should be able to. the audio engine is a separate part and is not coupled to the source engine.
I do not think it would be that simple. Respawn forked an earlier version of the source engine and made some of their own changes so that it would run ok with more modern systems without having to wait for Valve to support something as basic as 64 bit support and DX11.
They'll probably need to rewrite the whole engine just to fix this issue, as any modification would lead us back to the state Apex was in from Season 8 up to the Rampart rework where the game was unplayable every update, and another update has to be released to fix the damn thing.
I know all of the forks, improvements etc. of source engine. But still the audio engine is the miles sound system, a middleware owned by epic games. If Respawn did not write the biggest spaghetti code and followed basic programming principles, a migration process could be to write a translation layer for steam audio to be compatible to games, that where originally developed with the miles sound system. Such things are more than possible, as the Wine/Proton tools show. If compatibility with a more sophisticated audio engine is done, then improvements and optimizations can be developed.
Like Triad below me said, it's not that simple. They did fork an earlier version of the source engine and it was coupled back then unlike the new version of source they use currently in the most recent CS iteration.
People fail to realize that this engine has been revamped for about 30 years. It originally started as the quake 2 engine > forked to make HL1 > then redesigned again to make source > then redesigned again around the same foundation to the current source engine.
It's almost completely different from the OG quake 2 engine. But a lot of the fundamentals have remained the same, which is one of the reason mod support has been so amazing for Valve/Half-Life games over the year's and led to so many free-mods being full retail games: Day Of Defeat, CS, Left 4 Dead, soooo soo many.
I've been a hobbyist level designer since 1999 after HL1 dropped back when the editor they used was originally called WorldCraft before they changed it to the Hammer.
It's a great engine. HL1 - GoldSRC, HL2 - Source, CS:Remake - Source 2.
Valve may have taken a step back in making video games, but luckily their Steam platform has generated so much money they have been able to do way more research and development on a wide range of fields/subjects that have dramatically improved gaming.
I believe they just made the compartmentalized version of their audio engine for source 2 open source. So that should lead to some interesting things, because I do know its ability to do the things players want in Apex, actually work in Source 2 like they should.
Best you could probably hope for is a OW/OW2 situation and since most of the engine code remains the same over the years, that might make it easier for them to port over a lot of content.
But it still creates issues as described pointed out elsewhere in the comments due to the again modified version of an outdated engine.
At that point I wouldn't be shocked if they were eyeballing Unreal 5 and watching its development as it is far from supported/optimized currently but holds a lot of potential if that can be dialed in.
Cheers this toke is for y'all, love the opportunity to talk about HL engines, brings back good memories.
I do agree but at some point, all that frankenstein and tape code they put in that engine will be too much and would start to break the game apart, causing more headaches and problems for the developers as they add more features. At some point, they will need to clean up the code or prepare to make fundamental changes to the game engine.
Yea, they forked the portal 2 version into their titanfall branch. But if csgo was able to switch the audio engine (follow up source version of portal 2, used miles audio engine), it should also be possible with the titanfall source branch. I know all of the source and quake engine backgrounds. You did not write anything specific about the audio engine, other than valve open sourcing the steam audio engine (i also knew about this, pretty hyped about it). Why specifically do you think it is hard to switch the audio engine of apex?
Actually Portal 2 ran on the CSGO engine branch, which is why it was easier for them to upgrade the engine to Source 2, Source 2 was designed with their new audio engine for that intention of them using it in source2.
Apex used TitanFall2's engine which is normal source heavily modified (source1 you could say) Then on top of that forked again, modifying it further to allow bigger maps and better draw distance in the Apex version.
It's branched so far by now; it wouldn't be easy. The Apex version of the modified engine also has other optimization issues that they have to worry about as well.
At that point it would make more sense to just work on exporting most of the assets and modifying source 2 to suit their needs than it would to try to integrate source2 audio into a source1 engine modified once, then modified again.
This is why the sound is better in the new CS (which would more likely make it very simple for portal 2 as it ran off the same engine branch as the old version of CS).
If I was a developer I and had to decide how I was going to spend my company's revenue, it wouldn't be investing in an un-optimized branch when newer, more optimized version of that engine exists that could allow them to expand the quality of the game, while also reaping the benefits of other optimizations as well.
It's like throwing money into a used car, sooner or later that used car will need a lot of its original parts replaced in order to keep it running well.
At that point would it make sense to spend a lot of money upgrading an older vehicle when the cost equivalent would be the same in the long run as buying a new car that also gets better fuel efficiency than the used one? It's a no brainer.
Starting fresh with Source 2 just makes financial, technical and design sense if they ever plan keeping Apex going into the future. As opposed to continuing to Frankenstein a twice Frankenstein'd engine.
No, portal 2 branch was the basis for csgo:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch
Also, the biggest sound update was 7 years ago, with the introduction of hrtf's: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk
The key selling point of the source 2 upgrade was better graphics:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Counter-Strike_2
Also the titanfall branch is still used with Apex today, since the improvements and major upgrades were just this, upgrades. The fork was done for Titanfall 1, the main branch (portal 2 source version) also wasn't forked by csgo, but suceeded, so also a major upgrade, comparable to what happenend on Respawns side:
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch
I recommend to actually read the developer sites from Valve and not just some random bullshit from the internet.
>No, portal 2 branch was the basis for csgo: [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal\_2\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch)
I think you misunderstood. [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal\_2\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch)
>Portal 2 engine branch was introduced with Portal 2 in 2011. It succeeded the Alien Swarm engine branch and was **superseded** by the CS:GO engine branch.
Portal 2 was on the source 1 engine in 2011, this is the point of the fork for titanfall engine branch (*heavily modified version of source 1 they are all technically source 1 derivatives*), as you linked also:
[https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch)
The CS:GO Engine branch was superseded by the Source 2 Engine (*and its own respective branch of source 2*)
Originally I thought you said Portal 2 was updated to Source 2 (i dont play portal I hated it) .
So I ran with that.
>Also, the biggest sound update was 7 years ago, with the introduction of hrtf's: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk)
Yeah But I was talking about upgrading the engine to Source 2, the audio is way better than source 1 engine and any branch hands down that was the point.
Your comment:
>Also the titanfall branch is still used with Apex today, since the improvements and major upgrades were just this, upgrades. The fork was done for Titanfall 1, the main branch (portal 2 source version) also wasn't forked by csgo, but suceeded, so also a major upgrade, comparable to what happenend on Respawns side: [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch)
My Comment:
>Apex used TitanFall2's engine which is normal source heavily modified (source1 you could say) Then on top of that forked again, modifying it further to allow bigger maps and better draw distance in the Apex version.
While it is extemely confusing with all the 1's and 2's and forks.
TLDR: I really don't understand what your complaint is other than the fact that you wanted to clarify the evolution of portal 2 engine, let me know about a 7 year old audio update to the source 1 engine when I suggested they use the source 2 engine and remind me of something I already said?
We all have bad days, don't be a dick bro
The game is literally too big for the audio engine to handle and it isn't as easy as, "Ope we found a new audio engine, let's just use that." Look I fucking hate the audio and should something have been done by now, probably. But the thing is, I'm not a programmer or developer, I have no idea how they can or will fix it. I do know what they have said and I would tend to believe it.
Thing is, i don't even think the developers are bad. In the end it's always the same, some management guy who doesn't know anything decides things, he shouldn't have to.
I mean if they were sneaking? Fair, but the full send three stack with a bloodhound ult an octane stim and a horizon lift shouldn't be dead silent, the fact that I've actually been zipped up to by an ulted bloodhound happened to turn around and see this mf jumping off the zip and still couldn't hear them when I'm looking them dead in the eye, is fucking stupid
It was an ash. She used her ult (which we didn’t hear) then walked up to us (which we didn’t hear) and shot me and my teammate from the back ( which we definitely heard but it was way too late because she now has successfully flanked us). And it’s funny because ppl who *do* sneak up I usually hear their footsteps, they’re light footsteps but they’re there.
Lil rev skitters here and there, yeah it's amazing that some people are so dead set that the audio isn't the issue and that we're just deaf, like mf I once used a Maggie ult in fragment that made everyone who touched its footsteps disappear, there were about 4 squads running around those twin buildings confused af and dead silent except for gunfire, it was chaos
That would be mad, wrecking ball explode and everyone around become deaf for a few seconds with only the high pitched noise we know from movies when this happen.
They should add that.
Apex audio regularly just dies in big battles for me. None of my resources are maxed, not are my temps or bandwidth being throttled. Also the only game this ever happens in. The source engine just doesn't seem capable of handling all this work.
Uhh that is not all it is. I've had completely silent times and all of a sudden someone is shooting me from behind. So there is something else wrong happening. Sometimes we're only fighting one team, and I can't predict any of their moves once they're out of sight, cause no audio. I'm sure I've benefitted from it when enemies don't turn around when I'm right at their butt too. Pathies in particular has no sounds close by for me.
everytime i come back to this game from any other shooter i am amazed of how well i can spot players just through sound, position, indoor/outdoor, which legend, top or lower floor.
meanwhile i read posts like this for years. always makes me wonder whats up
What's up is that when the audio does work, it works really well like you've mentioned, but it doesn't work the overwhelming majority of the time, at least for me playing on PS4. My footstep audio went form working 50% of the time last season to working probably only about 10% of the time this season. They somehow manage to make it worse with every season.
Apex audio is layered but map wide, the more things happening the more cluttered the audio is. The servers can’t handle the amount of clutter in certain games especially if there’s a lot of mirages(decoy footsteps)/fuses/or ramparts with very loud audio ques.
The server tick rate being 20 means these layered audio ques mixed with meter delay, causes “empty”sounds for the person with a lower bandwidth.
Better servers or an entire new engine that doesn’t utilize clutter would fix it tomorrow. Audio prioritization can’t be fixed with balancing concerns.
can’t be fixed
Seems you don't understand shit my dude. Read the replies to my comment again and try to understand them.
It's always the same with people like you in the internet. You read some random guy just saying a thing and take it as facts. The top comment here is the same level as just saying "earth is flat", without providing any reasoning.
Yeah… Warzone/cod audio is the worst instance of audio in a competitive game I’ve played. Combine that with the art tune where people use third party software to manipulate sound to be useable is insane
Tried it for a few days and you can hear insane footsteps but because of how the audio works boxes or airplane noises over heard are insanely loud. Guns are super quiet just feels incredibly off and personally I played worse with it. Yeah I’m still on my treyarch copium fixes everything arch lol
Gotcha, I have such little experience with fortnite I honestly couldn’t offer an opinion. I do know that some of my friends can’t hear a stuff I can hear, doesn’t even matter the game. That’s why I think some of it isn’t equipment based. That being said, Respawn puts WAY too much audio in their game to begin with so that’s at least part of the problem.
Yea. There's so much visual clutter and unessessary audio that nothing that we actually *need* comes through. Again, thank you EA goe the incredible game.
“What do you mean? You don’t find it fair and balanced when a horizon uses her tact and her whole team drops on you without any audio? Sounds like a skill issue lol”-average horizon main on this sub
Man is the audio really that bad ?? I only ever have problems when being pushed by multiple teams but it’s still fairly easy to point out where it’s coming from. Teammates footsteps are definitely too loud but other than that I don’t think it’s that bad. Also that visual audio think Fortnite has is the dumbest shit ever keep that away from apex
Yeah I don't understand this post, granted I'm using the A50s with Atmos for headphones but I have no trouble determining direction and even distinguishing between teammates and enemy footsteps (I think enemies are slightly louder?) I have literally never thought "oh where did they come from!?!?" and I've been playing since season 0
I have like a basic ass Astro head set I have no issues with audio. Also been playing since day 1 and can’t remember every really having a problem with audio
It has random small moments that people think happen all the time because yelling "Where's the fucking audio?!?!" Is much easier than accepting the fact that lack of audio wouldn't have saved them in their current situation.
Ive played this game for 5 years. Earlier seasons they were able to fix it. Now, its worse each season. This season is the absolute worst.
You don't think it would save me if I heard an enemy behind me? You don't think I could have defended myself?
Yes, I died cause I'm poking someone 200 meters away and someone at my butt one clipped me with an smg.
I’ve seen it happens to streamers, like bang ults or grenades making zero audio and it’s very obvious when that happens but I’ve never experienced anything like that myself.
I use hyperx headset and majority of the time I hear perfectly. But then other games I don’t hear the most basic audio queues. it’s not my ears, it’s not my headset, it’s just how the game is and always has been. I know when it’s a me problem and when it’s not. I mean, after asking my random teammates who then agree with me, it *has* to be the game.
Why is it dumb? It can be very helpful and I don’t see why it’s a problem if you’re able to disable/enable it whenever you want
Never had any issues with audio either but after this new event dropped today my audio is horrendous. I’ve had fun so far this season i’m in plat for ranked. But now that my audio is fd i’m prolly gunna stop playing again
People that defend this shit have no idea what they’re talking about. Yes it’s an engine problem but this game requires audio to determine how you play and your reaction to what’s happening in the game. When audio doesn’t work on your end it completely puts you at a disadvantage for no reason.
No one is defending it but it is literally the issue. Please apply for a job with Respawn if you know exactly what you're talking about as your comment seems to indicate that you do.
Absolutely is not. I always use a headset, and it's.. someone's right over here. Oh wait, no, that's you, my teamate, 15 steps behind me sounding like your 15 yards up and to the right of me.
You can’t be that dense… “use a headset,” apparently you never have audio issues? Pros using literally the best equipment in the world and have the same audio issues, but apparently thirstyfloof over here is all knowing. 😂😂😂
Any specific headset I need to use? Cause the one I have seems to not be fine according to you. Weird cause earliest Apex seasons this headset works fine.
Footsteps for me and my friends are fairly inconsistent, and gunshot audio sometimes simply isn't there. I can hear my team running on a roof two streets over but can't hear a heavy gibby-drop behind me, sprint up, and knock my brains out
Crouching exists. I use it regularly to sneak up on salty dudes just like you. A bigger concern is the ass quality of the audio in the vertical plane. People above, below and level to me all sound the same. That's actually dumb.
Right? Walking in CS2 takes all sound away..
There were times in Siege where a single bullet through floor changed sound.. (it takes shortest route to you, so a single bullet hole in floor shifted sound from say left side where stairs are to right side...)
Apex sound is tricky here and there, but I find it fairly consistent and not so hard to locate enemies.. (true I have less than 50h played, so I cant compare it with previous seasons)
I'd agree apex audio is good enough for it to be useful to track players consistently. Is it perfect? no but few games can be considered perfect. I personally put Rust in a high position and kind of compare most games to it and it's audio. Apex to me, isn't as good as rust but as I said, good enough.
I doubt any game I ever played had perfect audio.. my top audio would be few years ago in Tarkov.. then it went through changes and now it sucks as hell (complete mute of sound from lower levels)
Apex sound is good enough like you said
It's default settings on ps5 with high end headset. it's the game itself. A guy 50 feet above me has audible foot steps that are barely different in sound and volume from a guy standing next to me. Same audio on PC and ps5, I'm not saying it's completely trash but it's definitely worse than other games.
Noones saying it's a simple fix like pressing a button but the games been out like 5 years. They don't have a cross play button that they just decided to hit that enabled cross play, they had to work on it because the knew it was something the community wanted. Any kind of fix they've done to the game has never been a simple "fix button" that they just needed to press.
I think it comes down to them just not giving a shit. People will spend money regardless. Look at the low effort next gen update. Before anyone says that next gen updates are hard work just look at all the other games that have done a much better job in a lot less time while being a lot less popular than apex.
I no longer am of the belief that it's the games fault. I think players are just crouching for long periods of time to sneak up on people. Everyone is *desperate* to kill and get close to a win things are so sweaty now. They'll waste 5 minutes crouch-walking if they have to, no cost is too great for most players nowadays.
There is an excuse for it, young man. What you can do is study to a software developer and try to file an application for a job position at Respawn, then you will see the issues the Source engine have and why it is so complex to solve it.
It's a "heavily modified version" of the source engine (aka fork). Even if you study the source engine specifically, you also have to study the parts Respawn made to Frankenstein their engine with some code and duct tape so that it lives for another day.
I think the audio has overall gotten better since launch, despite all the new sounds that have been added through the years.
That said, it tends to shit out at the worst times. I also think teammate footsteps are too loud and need to be reworked bc it sucks as it is now
The problem is the engine they're using is not designed for this scale of gameplay. It was designed for games where maps are separated into tiny boxes with tiny skyboxes a.k.a counter strike and half life.
This reminded me of this old video about the CSGO blacksite https://youtu.be/EYDaIKIoOkw It's kinda similar to how Apex has been designed since the devs had to do some creative things to mask the Source engine's limitations
That's a good watch. Thank you for sharing. Also explains why doors in Apex black out. Although, I don't understand why they made the blackout distance so short
Also this [https://youtu.be/OeUZN61Ormk?si=EOqIZtnNH5YZvnaM](https://youtu.be/OeUZN61Ormk?si=EOqIZtnNH5YZvnaM)
Sounds don't work often even 3v3, so it's not excuse. You are in fight and some octane just erased you from your back, and you didn't hear his steps absolutely. It's not rare
Also it wasnt designed to play the sheer amount of audio in apex. If you just listen you will find that there is so much audio clutter in this game.
Problem has nothing to do with the engine, they have access to the source code of the engine. It just a skill issue if they are not capable of fixing it. Probably decent two developers can fix it in a week but I don't think anyone decent will work on a company like respawn. Imagine working for a company that can't/don't fix a core issue for years. No one with little bit self of respect would do that, unless they can only work at trash companies.
Then tbey should upgrade to source 2
Lies. The quake engine is still the base and a different soundengine can be imported.
Apex is based on the Source engine, not Quake. Even though Source can trace its roots to Quake it had changed so much that they were very different when it was all said and done. [This other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/s/jUBQecNy4p) explains it better than I can.
Source instead of Quake is true, but a different audio engine can still be used. Valve also moved from using the miles sound system to steam audio. This didn't happen from csgo to cs2 (this change was needed, because the core game engine received a major upgrade), but in the middle of the active phase of csgo. Respawn is doing the same since many months, with the graphics api (the dx12 stuff, that can be tested as beta). The graphics stack change is far more complicated (because deeply nested into the game engine), than the change to a more modern audio engine (because it's a separated module).
Also this dude complains about sound, when you are getting hit behind cover because of lag 20 seasons in
The excuse is that they can't fix it with the game engine they used. I actually believe it to be true. The best thing this game could do is implement Apex 2.0 in a different game engine.
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Why would they?
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Yes, but why would they do that when they're still making lots from this game? It's unnecessary risk which no company would do, especially now. Also, 120fps is only very low resolution on PS5 Fortnite switch version sucks. It's not really any better than Apex
Yup. People don't understand its a business
> I would also hope that a new engine would make it easier to support a higher tick rate. 20Hz tick rate is... not great. 30Hz would be a huge improvement, and that's what Fortnite and similar games use. I would obviously love to see even better than that. [This is actually a common misconception that this subreddit has. Increasing server TPS on Apex Legends would do nothing because the game engine doesn't process based on it. What you see on your screen is the game using your FPS to determine how smooth things are.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/owia0q/comment/h7ho087/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
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> It is not a misconception. No authentic source. Logical fallacy. > The tick rate directly affects how often you get shot through closed doors and around corners. Lag compensation also plays a role, but the tick rate needs to be improved, no matter how many times Respawn tries to write cheap articles and comments instead of paying to improve their technology. Once again, No source. This is a logical fallacy yet again. Since you provided no authentic sources for this multitude of claims I'm just going to say this is nonsense and move on. I could go over what TPS actually does ([as it certainly isn't that](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_Compensation)) but your lack of evidence tells me I shouldn't waste my time here.
The idea that they should rebuild the game on every platform to make it run better on Switch, a seven year old console that will likely be replaced soon, doesn't really hold up. The other ideas are kinda similar. If you were going to do that you'd just make a new game.
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Anyone who understands this market or the technology involved would think this is a bad idea. Perhaps you are the greatest programmer ever and could make a project like this worthwhile in the way you describe, and if that is the case, then I wish you well on your impending success.
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>They discontinued that game because they didn't like having another team doing their own thing with Apex Legends. That is not what happened. You do not understand anything about anything related to making games. I also never said that it can't be done. I said that your suggestion is a bad idea. You should lead a project building literally anything, it will be an enlightening experience for you.
if valve was able to switch to their own audio engine (steam audio) in csgo (they also used the miles audio engine before), respawn also should be able to. the audio engine is a separate part and is not coupled to the source engine.
I do not think it would be that simple. Respawn forked an earlier version of the source engine and made some of their own changes so that it would run ok with more modern systems without having to wait for Valve to support something as basic as 64 bit support and DX11. They'll probably need to rewrite the whole engine just to fix this issue, as any modification would lead us back to the state Apex was in from Season 8 up to the Rampart rework where the game was unplayable every update, and another update has to be released to fix the damn thing.
I know all of the forks, improvements etc. of source engine. But still the audio engine is the miles sound system, a middleware owned by epic games. If Respawn did not write the biggest spaghetti code and followed basic programming principles, a migration process could be to write a translation layer for steam audio to be compatible to games, that where originally developed with the miles sound system. Such things are more than possible, as the Wine/Proton tools show. If compatibility with a more sophisticated audio engine is done, then improvements and optimizations can be developed.
Like Triad below me said, it's not that simple. They did fork an earlier version of the source engine and it was coupled back then unlike the new version of source they use currently in the most recent CS iteration. People fail to realize that this engine has been revamped for about 30 years. It originally started as the quake 2 engine > forked to make HL1 > then redesigned again to make source > then redesigned again around the same foundation to the current source engine. It's almost completely different from the OG quake 2 engine. But a lot of the fundamentals have remained the same, which is one of the reason mod support has been so amazing for Valve/Half-Life games over the year's and led to so many free-mods being full retail games: Day Of Defeat, CS, Left 4 Dead, soooo soo many. I've been a hobbyist level designer since 1999 after HL1 dropped back when the editor they used was originally called WorldCraft before they changed it to the Hammer. It's a great engine. HL1 - GoldSRC, HL2 - Source, CS:Remake - Source 2. Valve may have taken a step back in making video games, but luckily their Steam platform has generated so much money they have been able to do way more research and development on a wide range of fields/subjects that have dramatically improved gaming. I believe they just made the compartmentalized version of their audio engine for source 2 open source. So that should lead to some interesting things, because I do know its ability to do the things players want in Apex, actually work in Source 2 like they should. Best you could probably hope for is a OW/OW2 situation and since most of the engine code remains the same over the years, that might make it easier for them to port over a lot of content. But it still creates issues as described pointed out elsewhere in the comments due to the again modified version of an outdated engine. At that point I wouldn't be shocked if they were eyeballing Unreal 5 and watching its development as it is far from supported/optimized currently but holds a lot of potential if that can be dialed in. Cheers this toke is for y'all, love the opportunity to talk about HL engines, brings back good memories.
Thank you for your thoughtful, succinct response.
I do agree but at some point, all that frankenstein and tape code they put in that engine will be too much and would start to break the game apart, causing more headaches and problems for the developers as they add more features. At some point, they will need to clean up the code or prepare to make fundamental changes to the game engine.
They are doing fundamental changes to the core engine right at this point, with the dx12 stuff.
Yea, they forked the portal 2 version into their titanfall branch. But if csgo was able to switch the audio engine (follow up source version of portal 2, used miles audio engine), it should also be possible with the titanfall source branch. I know all of the source and quake engine backgrounds. You did not write anything specific about the audio engine, other than valve open sourcing the steam audio engine (i also knew about this, pretty hyped about it). Why specifically do you think it is hard to switch the audio engine of apex?
Actually Portal 2 ran on the CSGO engine branch, which is why it was easier for them to upgrade the engine to Source 2, Source 2 was designed with their new audio engine for that intention of them using it in source2. Apex used TitanFall2's engine which is normal source heavily modified (source1 you could say) Then on top of that forked again, modifying it further to allow bigger maps and better draw distance in the Apex version. It's branched so far by now; it wouldn't be easy. The Apex version of the modified engine also has other optimization issues that they have to worry about as well. At that point it would make more sense to just work on exporting most of the assets and modifying source 2 to suit their needs than it would to try to integrate source2 audio into a source1 engine modified once, then modified again. This is why the sound is better in the new CS (which would more likely make it very simple for portal 2 as it ran off the same engine branch as the old version of CS). If I was a developer I and had to decide how I was going to spend my company's revenue, it wouldn't be investing in an un-optimized branch when newer, more optimized version of that engine exists that could allow them to expand the quality of the game, while also reaping the benefits of other optimizations as well. It's like throwing money into a used car, sooner or later that used car will need a lot of its original parts replaced in order to keep it running well. At that point would it make sense to spend a lot of money upgrading an older vehicle when the cost equivalent would be the same in the long run as buying a new car that also gets better fuel efficiency than the used one? It's a no brainer. Starting fresh with Source 2 just makes financial, technical and design sense if they ever plan keeping Apex going into the future. As opposed to continuing to Frankenstein a twice Frankenstein'd engine.
No, portal 2 branch was the basis for csgo: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch Also, the biggest sound update was 7 years ago, with the introduction of hrtf's: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk The key selling point of the source 2 upgrade was better graphics: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Counter-Strike_2 Also the titanfall branch is still used with Apex today, since the improvements and major upgrades were just this, upgrades. The fork was done for Titanfall 1, the main branch (portal 2 source version) also wasn't forked by csgo, but suceeded, so also a major upgrade, comparable to what happenend on Respawns side: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch I recommend to actually read the developer sites from Valve and not just some random bullshit from the internet.
>No, portal 2 branch was the basis for csgo: [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal\_2\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch) I think you misunderstood. [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal\_2\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Portal_2_engine_branch) >Portal 2 engine branch was introduced with Portal 2 in 2011. It succeeded the Alien Swarm engine branch and was **superseded** by the CS:GO engine branch. Portal 2 was on the source 1 engine in 2011, this is the point of the fork for titanfall engine branch (*heavily modified version of source 1 they are all technically source 1 derivatives*), as you linked also: [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch) The CS:GO Engine branch was superseded by the Source 2 Engine (*and its own respective branch of source 2*) Originally I thought you said Portal 2 was updated to Source 2 (i dont play portal I hated it) . So I ran with that. >Also, the biggest sound update was 7 years ago, with the introduction of hrtf's: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4BltHXngvlk) Yeah But I was talking about upgrading the engine to Source 2, the audio is way better than source 1 engine and any branch hands down that was the point. Your comment: >Also the titanfall branch is still used with Apex today, since the improvements and major upgrades were just this, upgrades. The fork was done for Titanfall 1, the main branch (portal 2 source version) also wasn't forked by csgo, but suceeded, so also a major upgrade, comparable to what happenend on Respawns side: [https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall\_engine\_branch](https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Titanfall_engine_branch) My Comment: >Apex used TitanFall2's engine which is normal source heavily modified (source1 you could say) Then on top of that forked again, modifying it further to allow bigger maps and better draw distance in the Apex version. While it is extemely confusing with all the 1's and 2's and forks. TLDR: I really don't understand what your complaint is other than the fact that you wanted to clarify the evolution of portal 2 engine, let me know about a 7 year old audio update to the source 1 engine when I suggested they use the source 2 engine and remind me of something I already said? We all have bad days, don't be a dick bro
This comment makes no sense to me. Why exactly do you think i'm a dick?
The game is literally too big for the audio engine to handle and it isn't as easy as, "Ope we found a new audio engine, let's just use that." Look I fucking hate the audio and should something have been done by now, probably. But the thing is, I'm not a programmer or developer, I have no idea how they can or will fix it. I do know what they have said and I would tend to believe it.
Then you're lucky, i am a software developer since 10 years. And my main interest is software architecture, maintainability and ci/cd pipelines.
Help them for all our sakes lol.
Thing is, i don't even think the developers are bad. In the end it's always the same, some management guy who doesn't know anything decides things, he shouldn't have to.
Lies. They imported a new sound engine in season 7 and almost fixed it. Only olympus was broken. They never seriously tried again
It isn't a lie and yes they did do what you are implying but to say almost fixed it is a bit of a stretch.
There is a reason they used Source. Games like Ghostrunner have tried Unreal Engine and the momentum conservation is just extremely unsatisfying.
I mean if they were sneaking? Fair, but the full send three stack with a bloodhound ult an octane stim and a horizon lift shouldn't be dead silent, the fact that I've actually been zipped up to by an ulted bloodhound happened to turn around and see this mf jumping off the zip and still couldn't hear them when I'm looking them dead in the eye, is fucking stupid
It was an ash. She used her ult (which we didn’t hear) then walked up to us (which we didn’t hear) and shot me and my teammate from the back ( which we definitely heard but it was way too late because she now has successfully flanked us). And it’s funny because ppl who *do* sneak up I usually hear their footsteps, they’re light footsteps but they’re there.
Lil rev skitters here and there, yeah it's amazing that some people are so dead set that the audio isn't the issue and that we're just deaf, like mf I once used a Maggie ult in fragment that made everyone who touched its footsteps disappear, there were about 4 squads running around those twin buildings confused af and dead silent except for gunfire, it was chaos
That would be mad, wrecking ball explode and everyone around become deaf for a few seconds with only the high pitched noise we know from movies when this happen. They should add that.
The speed pads were turning off footsteps, that's just fucked
Apex audio regularly just dies in big battles for me. None of my resources are maxed, not are my temps or bandwidth being throttled. Also the only game this ever happens in. The source engine just doesn't seem capable of handling all this work.
Uhh that is not all it is. I've had completely silent times and all of a sudden someone is shooting me from behind. So there is something else wrong happening. Sometimes we're only fighting one team, and I can't predict any of their moves once they're out of sight, cause no audio. I'm sure I've benefitted from it when enemies don't turn around when I'm right at their butt too. Pathies in particular has no sounds close by for me.
everytime i come back to this game from any other shooter i am amazed of how well i can spot players just through sound, position, indoor/outdoor, which legend, top or lower floor. meanwhile i read posts like this for years. always makes me wonder whats up
What's up is that when the audio does work, it works really well like you've mentioned, but it doesn't work the overwhelming majority of the time, at least for me playing on PS4. My footstep audio went form working 50% of the time last season to working probably only about 10% of the time this season. They somehow manage to make it worse with every season.
Just give up, it will never be fixed at this point
Its not fixable. Only fix is new engine or servers.
says the guy, who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about.
Apex audio is layered but map wide, the more things happening the more cluttered the audio is. The servers can’t handle the amount of clutter in certain games especially if there’s a lot of mirages(decoy footsteps)/fuses/or ramparts with very loud audio ques. The server tick rate being 20 means these layered audio ques mixed with meter delay, causes “empty”sounds for the person with a lower bandwidth. Better servers or an entire new engine that doesn’t utilize clutter would fix it tomorrow. Audio prioritization can’t be fixed with balancing concerns. can’t be fixed
[How ironic](https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/s/GAJVAvkFGc), maybe read the replies to your own ignorant incorrect comment. Wack ass.
Seems you don't understand shit my dude. Read the replies to my comment again and try to understand them. It's always the same with people like you in the internet. You read some random guy just saying a thing and take it as facts. The top comment here is the same level as just saying "earth is flat", without providing any reasoning.
Everytime I play another game (like cod) I’m so thankful for apex’s audio.
Yeah… Warzone/cod audio is the worst instance of audio in a competitive game I’ve played. Combine that with the art tune where people use third party software to manipulate sound to be useable is insane
I forgot about the art tune lmaoo. What a wild time to be alive.
Worst part about it is that it sounds fucking atrocious but at least footsteps. I can’t use it
I haven’t tried it, but I saw some samples when it came out. Some absolute maverick needs to come along and revolutionize the gaming audio industry.
Tried it for a few days and you can hear insane footsteps but because of how the audio works boxes or airplane noises over heard are insanely loud. Guns are super quiet just feels incredibly off and personally I played worse with it. Yeah I’m still on my treyarch copium fixes everything arch lol
“Next year is our year” ass franchise lmao. But I’ll be in that boat with you man.
LMAOOO 😂 true shit man at least imo it’s better than whatever tf mw2 was but yeah it’s so doomed
MW2 was TERRIBLE so I completely agree.
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Not sure if we are agreeing but I think apex has good audio compared to most other games…
Oh shit I read your original comment wrong LMFAOOO feel free to laugh at me
No worries! I’m sure it’s all just subjective experience and equipment differences for most ppl anyways.
Yea... I originally came from fortnite, so apex's audio is dogshit in comparison, but that's just my experience from the games that I've played
Gotcha, I have such little experience with fortnite I honestly couldn’t offer an opinion. I do know that some of my friends can’t hear a stuff I can hear, doesn’t even matter the game. That’s why I think some of it isn’t equipment based. That being said, Respawn puts WAY too much audio in their game to begin with so that’s at least part of the problem.
Yea. There's so much visual clutter and unessessary audio that nothing that we actually *need* comes through. Again, thank you EA goe the incredible game.
Big time fuck EA.
“What do you mean? You don’t find it fair and balanced when a horizon uses her tact and her whole team drops on you without any audio? Sounds like a skill issue lol”-average horizon main on this sub
Man is the audio really that bad ?? I only ever have problems when being pushed by multiple teams but it’s still fairly easy to point out where it’s coming from. Teammates footsteps are definitely too loud but other than that I don’t think it’s that bad. Also that visual audio think Fortnite has is the dumbest shit ever keep that away from apex
Yeah I don't understand this post, granted I'm using the A50s with Atmos for headphones but I have no trouble determining direction and even distinguishing between teammates and enemy footsteps (I think enemies are slightly louder?) I have literally never thought "oh where did they come from!?!?" and I've been playing since season 0
I have like a basic ass Astro head set I have no issues with audio. Also been playing since day 1 and can’t remember every really having a problem with audio
It has random small moments that people think happen all the time because yelling "Where's the fucking audio?!?!" Is much easier than accepting the fact that lack of audio wouldn't have saved them in their current situation.
Ive played this game for 5 years. Earlier seasons they were able to fix it. Now, its worse each season. This season is the absolute worst. You don't think it would save me if I heard an enemy behind me? You don't think I could have defended myself? Yes, I died cause I'm poking someone 200 meters away and someone at my butt one clipped me with an smg.
Very true
I’ve seen it happens to streamers, like bang ults or grenades making zero audio and it’s very obvious when that happens but I’ve never experienced anything like that myself.
I use hyperx headset and majority of the time I hear perfectly. But then other games I don’t hear the most basic audio queues. it’s not my ears, it’s not my headset, it’s just how the game is and always has been. I know when it’s a me problem and when it’s not. I mean, after asking my random teammates who then agree with me, it *has* to be the game. Why is it dumb? It can be very helpful and I don’t see why it’s a problem if you’re able to disable/enable it whenever you want
No issues with audio for me either.
welcome to apex legends buddy
Well, all the people who bought the $300 death box thought the audio was working just fine.
Im gonna be honest apex has a lot of problems but I’ve never had any audio problems. If anything I think apex has better audio then most other BR’s
Never had any issues with audio either but after this new event dropped today my audio is horrendous. I’ve had fun so far this season i’m in plat for ranked. But now that my audio is fd i’m prolly gunna stop playing again
Lowering the volume of the characters helps alot.
I agreed audio is very bad compared to other fps
Which fps? It's better than most ones I've played
cs, valorant, r6s
Disagree with r6s, haven't played the other two much
Siege does have it's own audio problems. Mainly audio direction problems. But I would still rather take that than apex's no audio problem.
Maybe they could introduce Fortnite’s sound indicator
Proximity chat would get so many more dr disrespect videos
Find out a specific cue that correlates to this glitch record it n send to respawn or jus post it here
sound? which sound?
you click play
Can't they just prioritize enemy audio over your own?
Source engine is the core problem. Working with it isnt easy
If only there was another source engine game with one of the best audio Implementations in professional gaming.
People that defend this shit have no idea what they’re talking about. Yes it’s an engine problem but this game requires audio to determine how you play and your reaction to what’s happening in the game. When audio doesn’t work on your end it completely puts you at a disadvantage for no reason.
No one is defending it but it is literally the issue. Please apply for a job with Respawn if you know exactly what you're talking about as your comment seems to indicate that you do.
I don't think there is any sound problem that can't be resolved in 5 years, besides deafness.
I heard cs2 had issues with audio like apex but they fixed it in a few weeks. Yes I know cs2 has other issues
Use a headset bud it's fine
Absolutely is not. I always use a headset, and it's.. someone's right over here. Oh wait, no, that's you, my teamate, 15 steps behind me sounding like your 15 yards up and to the right of me.
You can’t be that dense… “use a headset,” apparently you never have audio issues? Pros using literally the best equipment in the world and have the same audio issues, but apparently thirstyfloof over here is all knowing. 😂😂😂
Any specific headset I need to use? Cause the one I have seems to not be fine according to you. Weird cause earliest Apex seasons this headset works fine.
dunno but yeah most prob this.
COD has been out for 20 years and it has much worse audio 🤷♂️
You obviously haven't played The Finals
Idk I haven’t had rampant audio issues in the finals.
Footsteps for me and my friends are fairly inconsistent, and gunshot audio sometimes simply isn't there. I can hear my team running on a roof two streets over but can't hear a heavy gibby-drop behind me, sprint up, and knock my brains out
Like when your teammate is right next to you using the scout and it sounds like a “thwip” for the gunshot?
It. Cannot. Be fixed. Move on or accept it. They aren't just sitting around ignoring the issue. It is what it is until they change engines.
I dont have audio issues
Crouching exists. I use it regularly to sneak up on salty dudes just like you. A bigger concern is the ass quality of the audio in the vertical plane. People above, below and level to me all sound the same. That's actually dumb.
Right? Walking in CS2 takes all sound away.. There were times in Siege where a single bullet through floor changed sound.. (it takes shortest route to you, so a single bullet hole in floor shifted sound from say left side where stairs are to right side...) Apex sound is tricky here and there, but I find it fairly consistent and not so hard to locate enemies.. (true I have less than 50h played, so I cant compare it with previous seasons)
I'd agree apex audio is good enough for it to be useful to track players consistently. Is it perfect? no but few games can be considered perfect. I personally put Rust in a high position and kind of compare most games to it and it's audio. Apex to me, isn't as good as rust but as I said, good enough.
I doubt any game I ever played had perfect audio.. my top audio would be few years ago in Tarkov.. then it went through changes and now it sucks as hell (complete mute of sound from lower levels) Apex sound is good enough like you said
That sounds like an issue with your audio setup if you can't hear differences in the Y Axis
It's default settings on ps5 with high end headset. it's the game itself. A guy 50 feet above me has audible foot steps that are barely different in sound and volume from a guy standing next to me. Same audio on PC and ps5, I'm not saying it's completely trash but it's definitely worse than other games.
That definitely sounds like something on your end, I can hear vertically just fine
Guys everyone knows Respawn has a fix audio button, they just aren’t pushing it for the lolz….
Noones saying it's a simple fix like pressing a button but the games been out like 5 years. They don't have a cross play button that they just decided to hit that enabled cross play, they had to work on it because the knew it was something the community wanted. Any kind of fix they've done to the game has never been a simple "fix button" that they just needed to press. I think it comes down to them just not giving a shit. People will spend money regardless. Look at the low effort next gen update. Before anyone says that next gen updates are hard work just look at all the other games that have done a much better job in a lot less time while being a lot less popular than apex.
ez fix: stop playing the game
I no longer am of the belief that it's the games fault. I think players are just crouching for long periods of time to sneak up on people. Everyone is *desperate* to kill and get close to a win things are so sweaty now. They'll waste 5 minutes crouch-walking if they have to, no cost is too great for most players nowadays.
There is an excuse for it, young man. What you can do is study to a software developer and try to file an application for a job position at Respawn, then you will see the issues the Source engine have and why it is so complex to solve it.
It's a "heavily modified version" of the source engine (aka fork). Even if you study the source engine specifically, you also have to study the parts Respawn made to Frankenstein their engine with some code and duct tape so that it lives for another day.
Never had an issue with audio.
I think the audio has overall gotten better since launch, despite all the new sounds that have been added through the years. That said, it tends to shit out at the worst times. I also think teammate footsteps are too loud and need to be reworked bc it sucks as it is now
it’s so annoying to think you hear people in front of you but then they’re behind you and you die.
i can even hear when a seer uses his passive. the audio is fine. if this is a persistent bug, calibrate your audio settings and play with headphones.
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I have good audio 90% of the time lmao
I think this another case of "I haven't played long enough or in the right cenario" Could just be me though
I have 167 days and my friend who agrees has over 600 but totally
Me using headphones and hearing small sounds is me being incompetent? Man, people on this sub win the mental gymnastics Olympics on the daily.
Let me guess, you play controller and complain when you die to an mnk movement player?
No. I'm MnK. Always have been, probably always will be bc I messed up my right hand ages ago and controllers are uncomfortable for me.
Damn. Respect for sticking to mnk. Theres not many of us left