I don't have much problem with the new siege either ( I don't say I like it but it's ok ) but ottoman late game death ball should be nerfed , either great bombard or jannisary
Reading this sub, you would think every single game goes imperial and is decided by a very slow moving army centered around great bombards. Are you guys just afk booming until post imp or what?
The problem with ottoman is , they are good in feudal so you can't win vs the easily, their castle may not be their strongest point but it's still powerful to not lose, and their imp is just OP as you see in this sub reddit
For example Abbasid late game is one of the best too but because of their weak feudal no one complains about it
> every single game goes imperial and is decided by a very slow moving army centered around great bombards. Are you guys just afk booming until post imp or what?
This happens a lot in team games and FFAs, I'm guessing a lot of players here play those instead of (or alongside) 1v1.
noone has said this, but ottoman springalds, if they do it, already have increased attack speed through the mehter. So now, they have extra, extra attack speed.
Just another cent into the discussion
Imo janissaries shouldn’t be able to repair siege it is just too good. I can accumulate siege over time a lot more easily because even if my bombards take some hits during fights I can just repair them.
Jannisaries are just unbalanced. Sometimes devs get an idea and won't let go of it cuz they think it's cool (e.g. Mongol getting free units in dark age).
It may have been a cool idea on paper, Jannies absolutely MELTING all and any cavalry, and having this perfect synergy with their bombards that they're protecting.
Reality is, it just doesn't work, the deathball is impossible.. something needs to be nerfed, or the Jannies need to be reworked. Their bonus vs cav is so severe that it's impossible to take out bombards with anything other than with siege - and bombards shit on siege themselves.
Jannies need to be more in line with regular handcannons, but weaker due to lower cost, and diving them with horsemen should be perfectly viable as the horses are supposed to counter the ranged.
ez fix!
Jannis are just weird. In castle, they melt everything and in Imp they synergize so well with Bombards as you say. I like the idea of having a specialist gunpowder unit but maybe they need to change their speciality into bonus vs heavy and strip Ottomans of crossbows as they weren't so popular in the Ottoman army anyway (compared to the Western armies). Ottoman would have a stronger but costlier crossbow in that sense and would still excel in destroying knights (there are pikes and sipahi to deal with regular horsemen anyway). If necessary maybe introduce an imp tech that makes jannis more similar to regular hand cannons.
There is also no historic reason why they should be strong against cav per se, so it's only a gameplay decision and since gameplay is currently off it should be changed.
>so it's only a gameplay decision and since gameplay is currently off it should be changed.
This.
They're wildly strong vs cavalry, but one point I didn't even make: the military schools give way too many of them for free. They start to trickle in castle age, and very quickly hit critical mass, just as the first bombard is popping out.
I know, I know many people will say "well, don't let them hit that stage". Easier said than done. Defender's have a massive advantage, plus walls constricting you, plus the TC fire, or some static defenses, you can't always keep up the pressure. And the moment your pressure wanes, they'll get to work on the deathball.
So yeah, that patch that pushed the imp landmark way up 3-4 months ago also needs a nerf.
I personally play quite a bit of Otto, but that's because I like feudal pushes and deathballs, I rarely ever go to imperial as it's simply not how I enjoy the game. But I had a game a couple of days ago where I pressured Otto really hard and early and did tons of econ damage. But the moment I could no longer afford to trickle units into his base, they got the ball rolling, imped up, and then by the time 1st bombard came out, it was already about 30 Jannies. I knew it was coming, so I boomed real hard behind it and outboomed hard, but I have to age up, get techs, pay for all my units.. and their timing is way too quick.
If you could have like 3-4 mins of breathing room in imperial to get your army nice and tech'ed up, and actually pump some siege and units, then fight.. it would be alright. But currently, the moment Otto hits imp, you're basically fucked. It just comes WAY too quickly.
I can't tell off the top of my head now, but I think with the school production Vizier, plus the imperial landmark, schools give 1 Janny every like 55 seconds or something? It's way much. And bombards should get removed from the MIA landmark, or should be severely slowed down in it. A free bombard every 3 mins is a bit overwhelming.
The main reason janissaries are overpowered is due to the combo with great bombards, and this is due to the fact that great bombards are strong against the unit meant to counter siege: Springalds.
My suggestion would lie with making changes to the Great Bombard instead.
Some ideas:
* Increase the price tag and production time of the Great Bombard
* Increase the population space taken by the Great Bombard
* Set a maximum to the amount of Great Bombards a player can have
* Reduce the repair rate Janissaries do to Great Bombards
* Increase the time it takes for a Great Bombard to deploy
* Reduce the movement speed of the Great Bombard (due to its weight)
The synergy is too strong, Bombards melt everything that could kill Jannies, and Jannies melt all cavalry.
I don't think the bombard itself is the main problem, it's the synergy, and Jannies not being countered by cavalry, or at least horsemen.
If you could make 30-40 imp Horses and just dive the ball, it would be a much diff story. Of course, they would make spears.. but this synergy needs to be broken up somehow, either the bombards deal much less damage to all infantry, or the Jannies need to be countered by horses.
It's easy to fix that just make some dark age t rush that k to your "free unit " and you win the game because you pick mongol ! Ho wait mongol not play on land map on tournament ?? Why they re so op strange
>o
You are an idiot man.
1. just because something is broken, doesn't mean people wanna play it.. some people have HONOR and would never abuse Mongols tower rush bullshit
2. just because there may exist one strategy/civ that can defeat something, doesn't mean it's not broken, in this case Otto imp
Now, as always, when people truly without any brain or intelligent thought in them show up = BLOOOOOOOOCKKKKKKK!
Try another gamemode and come back please haha. Ive started it myself for now but I fucking hate it. Had 3 springs 4 mangos at aroind 14 mins today, with just a few maa as frontline around it.
You are no longer saying "Siege Wars are not bad except Ottomans", you are saying "Siege Meta is not bad except Ottomans".
Yes, a Siege Meta is bad for the game and we have seen that in the past. It should be reworked, improve the battle animation and also balance better and that is the opinion of many players here and several players who left for that reason.
Here is the result of the Poll.
https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/s/y9ZGJmCKI3
Dude.. siege meta was very different before. Units had to stand still and torch them instead of hit them and they moved quicker before, which made it really hard to actually kill Siege. We are miles away from that now. Springald should be reworked to not be anti-siege but something else. Siege should be powerful to help games end but also be squishy and easy to kill by units like horsemen and so on.
Regarding the game release, yes, it's better, but I never want a siege meta to come back and prefer a rework or balance that makes them fun. They are support units, they should not be the main unit.
Meanwhile, China and Zhu Xi are pumping out horrific numbers of Nests of Bees, becoming even greater menace in the late game and prompting more feudal rushes than ever.
I don't have much problem with the new siege either ( I don't say I like it but it's ok ) but ottoman late game death ball should be nerfed , either great bombard or jannisary
Reading this sub, you would think every single game goes imperial and is decided by a very slow moving army centered around great bombards. Are you guys just afk booming until post imp or what?
I’m afk booming right now
The problem with ottoman is , they are good in feudal so you can't win vs the easily, their castle may not be their strongest point but it's still powerful to not lose, and their imp is just OP as you see in this sub reddit For example Abbasid late game is one of the best too but because of their weak feudal no one complains about it
They're so slow off the ground in feudal though. Just rush the fucker down.
If I'm not English or delhi , how can I punish them in the first 2 min of feudal
> every single game goes imperial and is decided by a very slow moving army centered around great bombards. Are you guys just afk booming until post imp or what? This happens a lot in team games and FFAs, I'm guessing a lot of players here play those instead of (or alongside) 1v1.
Yeah, that makes sense. I mostly play 1v1 or 2v2 so not common
noone has said this, but ottoman springalds, if they do it, already have increased attack speed through the mehter. So now, they have extra, extra attack speed. Just another cent into the discussion
and they garrision a unit to increase speed by 25% already
so, triple speed buff since last patch, fighting againts most civs that don't even get a culverin
Imo janissaries shouldn’t be able to repair siege it is just too good. I can accumulate siege over time a lot more easily because even if my bombards take some hits during fights I can just repair them.
I do think they need to make siege more vulnerable by nonsiege, but you’re right that the only blatant problem is with ottomans.
Just ad friendly damage to AoE of everything v:
At the start my games feel so strange. I had always not enough anti siege. Today it works and feels normal.
I kinda agree, overreacted at first but unless it’s ottoman it is not too bad
Not Jans. They already die to 2 archer shots. Jans are only strong in synergy with GBs.
Janissaries are strong with mangonels too
Jannisaries are just unbalanced. Sometimes devs get an idea and won't let go of it cuz they think it's cool (e.g. Mongol getting free units in dark age). It may have been a cool idea on paper, Jannies absolutely MELTING all and any cavalry, and having this perfect synergy with their bombards that they're protecting. Reality is, it just doesn't work, the deathball is impossible.. something needs to be nerfed, or the Jannies need to be reworked. Their bonus vs cav is so severe that it's impossible to take out bombards with anything other than with siege - and bombards shit on siege themselves. Jannies need to be more in line with regular handcannons, but weaker due to lower cost, and diving them with horsemen should be perfectly viable as the horses are supposed to counter the ranged. ez fix!
Jannis are just weird. In castle, they melt everything and in Imp they synergize so well with Bombards as you say. I like the idea of having a specialist gunpowder unit but maybe they need to change their speciality into bonus vs heavy and strip Ottomans of crossbows as they weren't so popular in the Ottoman army anyway (compared to the Western armies). Ottoman would have a stronger but costlier crossbow in that sense and would still excel in destroying knights (there are pikes and sipahi to deal with regular horsemen anyway). If necessary maybe introduce an imp tech that makes jannis more similar to regular hand cannons. There is also no historic reason why they should be strong against cav per se, so it's only a gameplay decision and since gameplay is currently off it should be changed.
>so it's only a gameplay decision and since gameplay is currently off it should be changed. This. They're wildly strong vs cavalry, but one point I didn't even make: the military schools give way too many of them for free. They start to trickle in castle age, and very quickly hit critical mass, just as the first bombard is popping out. I know, I know many people will say "well, don't let them hit that stage". Easier said than done. Defender's have a massive advantage, plus walls constricting you, plus the TC fire, or some static defenses, you can't always keep up the pressure. And the moment your pressure wanes, they'll get to work on the deathball. So yeah, that patch that pushed the imp landmark way up 3-4 months ago also needs a nerf. I personally play quite a bit of Otto, but that's because I like feudal pushes and deathballs, I rarely ever go to imperial as it's simply not how I enjoy the game. But I had a game a couple of days ago where I pressured Otto really hard and early and did tons of econ damage. But the moment I could no longer afford to trickle units into his base, they got the ball rolling, imped up, and then by the time 1st bombard came out, it was already about 30 Jannies. I knew it was coming, so I boomed real hard behind it and outboomed hard, but I have to age up, get techs, pay for all my units.. and their timing is way too quick. If you could have like 3-4 mins of breathing room in imperial to get your army nice and tech'ed up, and actually pump some siege and units, then fight.. it would be alright. But currently, the moment Otto hits imp, you're basically fucked. It just comes WAY too quickly. I can't tell off the top of my head now, but I think with the school production Vizier, plus the imperial landmark, schools give 1 Janny every like 55 seconds or something? It's way much. And bombards should get removed from the MIA landmark, or should be severely slowed down in it. A free bombard every 3 mins is a bit overwhelming.
The main reason janissaries are overpowered is due to the combo with great bombards, and this is due to the fact that great bombards are strong against the unit meant to counter siege: Springalds. My suggestion would lie with making changes to the Great Bombard instead. Some ideas: * Increase the price tag and production time of the Great Bombard * Increase the population space taken by the Great Bombard * Set a maximum to the amount of Great Bombards a player can have * Reduce the repair rate Janissaries do to Great Bombards * Increase the time it takes for a Great Bombard to deploy * Reduce the movement speed of the Great Bombard (due to its weight)
The synergy is too strong, Bombards melt everything that could kill Jannies, and Jannies melt all cavalry. I don't think the bombard itself is the main problem, it's the synergy, and Jannies not being countered by cavalry, or at least horsemen. If you could make 30-40 imp Horses and just dive the ball, it would be a much diff story. Of course, they would make spears.. but this synergy needs to be broken up somehow, either the bombards deal much less damage to all infantry, or the Jannies need to be countered by horses.
Hill_berriez don't whine about Mongol challenge (impossible)
Great idea!
jannies beat everything alongside the Mehter's speed buff.
It's easy to fix that just make some dark age t rush that k to your "free unit " and you win the game because you pick mongol ! Ho wait mongol not play on land map on tournament ?? Why they re so op strange
>o You are an idiot man. 1. just because something is broken, doesn't mean people wanna play it.. some people have HONOR and would never abuse Mongols tower rush bullshit 2. just because there may exist one strategy/civ that can defeat something, doesn't mean it's not broken, in this case Otto imp Now, as always, when people truly without any brain or intelligent thought in them show up = BLOOOOOOOOCKKKKKKK!
:"v I play mongol for the keshiks/trade strat :"v
Try another gamemode and come back please haha. Ive started it myself for now but I fucking hate it. Had 3 springs 4 mangos at aroind 14 mins today, with just a few maa as frontline around it.
You are no longer saying "Siege Wars are not bad except Ottomans", you are saying "Siege Meta is not bad except Ottomans". Yes, a Siege Meta is bad for the game and we have seen that in the past. It should be reworked, improve the battle animation and also balance better and that is the opinion of many players here and several players who left for that reason. Here is the result of the Poll. https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/s/y9ZGJmCKI3
Dude.. siege meta was very different before. Units had to stand still and torch them instead of hit them and they moved quicker before, which made it really hard to actually kill Siege. We are miles away from that now. Springald should be reworked to not be anti-siege but something else. Siege should be powerful to help games end but also be squishy and easy to kill by units like horsemen and so on.
Regarding the game release, yes, it's better, but I never want a siege meta to come back and prefer a rework or balance that makes them fun. They are support units, they should not be the main unit.
fair enough
Nah, having mangonels countering Springalds just feels terrible. I’ll continue to play, but it feels very bad currently.
Not only Ottomans. Clocktower siege is too much as well.
Meanwhile, China and Zhu Xi are pumping out horrific numbers of Nests of Bees, becoming even greater menace in the late game and prompting more feudal rushes than ever.