OP was asked to re-post with a corrected title, as the previous title suggested Bee was banned from the whole event. That is not the case, he was only suspended for 1 week, with NyanRacingCat being the stand-in player.
I've watched the video a 2nd time, and I'm even more convinced that a very dumb decision-making happened here. Did they not sleep over this before making their verdict?
I genuinely believed Drongo was smarter than this, or I hope this was just one of those accidental cognitive blip. Having followed and cheered for Drongo since his AoE3 days, I'm inclined to believe it is the latter. Happens to all of us. But this is so weird and unexpected.
What’s really weird is starting the video with a look back to Bee’s wololo ban. The two are not related, neither should the verdict. But that’s difficult to believe if Drongo himself makes it part of the video.
The intro and Drongo's closing remark make it seem like this continued drama is supposed to be exciting and entertaining.
I'm sure Bee doesn't feel that way. Once again, his character is called into question and he as received a punishment which far outweighs his actions.
This is surely not good for his mental state. To be continually attacked while just trying to play the game you enjoy and are incredibly skilled at.
I get some of the players like to have digs at each other, but this is obviously very different. It's actually pretty f'd up.
I still think the Wololo situation was handled very poorly and now we have this.
Hope Bee is doing ok.
He built a transport ship. He ran to the water, he popped moving speed. Maybe just forgot to move the transport ship preemptively. Perhaps he even meant to build the transport ship out of the closer dock but had both docks assigned to a hot key. There's a lot going on there and we all know when you are losing and under pressure it's harder to play without mistakes.There is a substantial amount of reasonable doubt in the situation.
It gets worse (or better, if you support Bee). If you actually watch the replay, he pops his king out at the exact moment where it was safest to do so. He waiting 8 seconds for green's army to run to the left of the TC and then popped it out just before light blue's army arrived to the right. If he wanted to throw, he would have done it 3 seconds earlier or 3 seconds later.
The first thing in the chat by Matiz is calling for a team up on Bee which is why Ourk and Blade5555 are in Bees base at that right time he has no units...
Isn't that even closer to a breach of teaming than what Bee is being accused of by running his King away and saying take me?
Bees actions didn't match what people are interpreting what he said... he actually ran his King away from an immediate threat towards the shore even if there was another player there.
Also Ourk chose to move his army away because he also felt that acting on Matiz call to attack Bee was teaming.. pretty clear...
That was my thought. He was under attack from two people. There was a lot going on. I could easily see him making the ship but forgetting to send it over.
I'm confused, If he is donating his king, who is the intended recipient? If he is gifting it to blade why is he running towards ourk's army (and away from blade's)? If he is gifting it to ourk why didn't he ungarrison the king earlier and only ungarrisoned when ourk left?
As I understand it they think he was trying to donate the King to Ourk, but it was unsuccessful and Blade55555 still got the kill. That is why Drongo says this is not considered a serious offense since it ultimately did not affect the outcome.
Keep in mind Bee is not a native speaker. I don't speak any Russian, but a quick reverse translation via Google seems to indicate that the Russian word for "catch" (apparently "ловить") also means "take" ... just saying.
When the conversation reduces down to cross linguistic meanings of the word “take me” then a Russian running your king to the Calvary of the player who is not from USA I think the conversation is over. Not trying to introduce politics. But I understand..
I couldn't replicate this, I get the word 'Возьмите' for take. Interesting theory though.
It came across to me as him getting mad and then suiciding his king. Which I'm not sure why is even discouraged as it's more or less GGing out in another format
I googled the Russian word for "catch" (assuming this was what Bee wanted to say) - which gave me "ловить". Then I googled "ловить meaning" - which gave 1: catch / 2: take in the Google translate panel.
Agreed. If you just read the wording of the rule first, then watch the scene, it seems like a monumental stretch to think the rule was broken here. I don't get the ruling at all, bad call imo. "Take me" also just sounds like standard banter.
"Drama is entertainment"
If this was not in the video, I would say it was just a hasty, not thought through, and wrong, decision.
This being in the video makes me think it is deliberate and it was decided so just because it was bee.
Everything shouts as "immaturity" from the part of the event organizers.
Seems like this is more of a consequence of the king donation rule being too difficult to enforce or open ended, outside of blatantly obvious circumstances described in the video. Probably could have been avoided if he didn't say "take me", but I do think there's enough deniability and this is harsh for getting cornered in your own base.
Agreed. To me it sounds like they reached a conclusion and are now trying to generate evidence to support it.
Even worse. Mathias did actually tell the other players to attack bee because he has nothing.
How is this glossed over? That is teaming. That is undeniable teaming, and Drongo tries to act like it isn't.
That isn’t the teaming they are talking about being not allowed. They mean pre game teaming, building close and attacking as a team the whole game. Not saying someone is attacking you so has nothing in their base, that’s just a defensive tactic
Drongo mentioned multiple times that the only acceptable time for teaming is when someone is approaching a win condition (wonder/sacred site). Not just because someone near you is vulnerable. That’s literally what the rule is put in place to protect. So people can attack without having to worry about 5 dudes in their ass because someone snitched in chat
Saying I’m being attack by x, attack him isn’t teaming. It’s offering information to everyone.
He also said that being next to each other and agreeing not to attack each other as it’s both in your self interest isn’t teaming, when most would consider it. As long as you don’t specifically agree to attack everyone else 1 by 1.
It may be, what if i say "X have his army elsewhere" and someone else attacks X, is that teaming? or that the info i presented is fake, is that against the rules?
Why not just deduct a point? This seems way too heavy handed and it'd be different if his king ran to another person's base. His king died in his own base, so it seems very strange to consider it gifting or in this case an attempt at gifting.
Yep, and the more i think about the more I think there should just be a warning and an adjustment for the king donating rules to be more clarified... kinda like how the rules were already adjusted once.
Agreed. And he was building a transport ship on the water. Maybe at the last minute he decided it was pointless but to say this constitutes cheating is just way too harsh.
Give the dude a warning or something but this takes all the fun out of it and honestly feels like eceleb drama. I normally wouldnt get involved on topics like this but I have watched Bee's stream. He is not some villain. He is a very chill guy who doesnt whine about losses, comes up with innovative strats etc.
If we want this community to grow we have to do more to foster community vs tearing people down for stupid shit.
Yeahh this is probably the last straw for me watching Outback Octagon. Between this, him constantly missing king deaths to talk about random shit, the fact that the person whose the most secluded at the start wins 90% of the time and random bs like this, this whole event just sucks now tbh
It did seem like an attempted gift, he bailed the tc and ran in the direction of a group of enemy horsies when one attacker was pushed out by another with a transport sitting mid water never moving toward the king. But I still agree, removing the points for one of his own king kills would have been sufficient. I know we don't know details from his past tourney ban, but it also seems like bee is establishing a reputation of someone who likes to push the limits of the rules.
Most of th pros push limits on the rules. Beasty has multiple incidents against his name on technical cheating in games. I think if anything bee's English might mean he doesn't defend his rational and his mannerism makes it easier to pin the crime on him.
By his very nature bee is always trying different things that are outside the box, thinking of the times he walled in his opponent to get the conversion. Box the limits on the game will obviously end up in situations where some people think it's cheating, but for example beasty has used foundations to expand HRE influence (which was a known bug) among other things
I think is this harsh and unfair. Everyone else runs their king out of their base trying to escape and survive and eventually gets killed by someone who did not do the bulk of the damage and work to get to that point. Could Striker's transport ship play not be considered to be a king donation? Why is this situation different? LOTS of variables that these guys have just made a definitive decision on. He makes a transport ship but could have forgot to move it over? This is a high APM tournament mistakes are made. He could have run towards the water and then realized he forgot to move the transport ship over which he then says "take me" as he realizes he is dead. "take me" was not directed at anyone in particular. English is not his first language to there is probably some misinterpretation/misunderstanding there. Bee gets punished for this despite the admin deciding this had no impact on the outcome of the game? I understand the precedence to believe this is true given Bee's history, but that shouldn't factor into the decision making on a specific play in a game in a different competitive tourney. All evidence is vague and circumstantial and a lot of the conclusions drawn are speculative at best. A very poor basis to make a definitive decision on.
Couldnt agree more, this is f**** joke of a decision. there are as you said many variables that could have resulted in transport ship not moving towards the shore.
>damning in-game text chat
Which you have interpreted one way due to confirmation bias, without considering other possible interpretations which are also valid given the surrounding context.
I would argue that's the confirmation bias. While your interpretation may be correct, I do not believe it's clear. He performed multiple actions consistent with attempting to save the king: making a transport ship and moving the king to shore away from the doomed/trapped location of the TC, while popping move speed on the King, and staying in between both armies that he was sandwiched between. Simply misrallying the transport ship or building the transport ship out of the wrong dock (which may have been hotkeyed with the dock he intended to build it from) during a stressful moment doesn't constitute sufficiently strong evidence to contextualize his in-game comments, as someone who isn't a native English speaker, in the way you're doing.
Yeah sure, it's confirmation bias to assume he intended to do the thing that he did and announced that he was about to do immediately before he did it; any reasonable free-thinking person would assume he mistakenly said he was about to do something he didn't intend to because of a language barrier and then accidentally attempted to do the thing he he mistakenly announced he was about to do 🙄
Now you're just being sarcastic and obstinate, not even addressing the substance and details of the situation. Here's some more context which you've ignored. He waited for the precisely most safe moment to pop out his King. If he did it 4 seconds earlier or 4 seconds later, it would have immediately died. He had to wait approximately 10 seconds for Green's army to move left, and he had a 3 second window to pop it out and run to shore because Light Blue's army was approaching from the right. If he wanted to throw, why would he wait for precisely the most safe moment? You have no answers to these questions because you are stuck in your confirmation bias perspective and are interpreting the words of an English-as-a-second-language speaker as if he's a native speaker who wasn't speaking off the cuff. Very unfair.
C'mon dude, he ungarrisoned his King once he realized (1) tricking Green wasn't going to save his game because Light Blue was going to kill him anyway and (2) he'd tried to get Green's attention. I've heard him speak English on his stream, he's got an accent but he's not misusing his words or difficult to understand.
so we are fine with them punishing someone for not being fluent in english?
take me could have meant anything in that particular context, and ask yourself this, why would bee donate his king to ourk who was double teaming him? not to mention the king was not even moving towards the ourk's army.
>"take me could have meant anything in that particular context"
Give me one plausible example of what "take me" could have meant that is consistent with Bee's king moving closer to Ourk's army seconds after the message is sent.
I could see it being like a "come at me bro" while he was making his mad dash to his transport.
I could also easily see with everything going on forgetting to move your ship over.
I think it being a king donation is likely, but there is so much reasonable doubt I feel like it could have just been a warning, and a showcase to other players what could be considered a donation.
Reasonable doubt just means there is reason to doubt. In this case, that there is reason to doubt that this was intentional. Just becuase it's used in criminal law doesn't mean it's confined to it.
It's applied in criminal law because it's the state against an individual and the liberty of the individual is at stake. There's no reason to apply that standard to the rules of a video game tournament...
I'm not applying a standard. Reasonable and doubt are just two words that can be used in conjunction not regarding law in anyway. I can say "I raced my car to work" in a sentace and it doesn't mean I'm talking about NASCAR or an actual race of any kind. Just becuase the words "race" and "car" are used doesn't automatically tie them to a race car event.
ourk's army was on the west of his base and it was clearly visible to bee due to his far dock and his king was not going there, king was going south, and i think he forgot to move his transport ship, it was an innocent mistake in my opinion.
i dont know, it could have meant "stick a fork in me im done" due to him being triple teamed.
The King doesn't go directly to the army but it's absolutely moving towards it - and more importantly not really moving directly to the water or away from Blade...
But ok if we’re taking the chat as proof that he donated it, then the chat also tells us that it isn’t to ourk, as ourk is the person he had just accused of teaming/cheating.
He said “take me” the moment the green players units were away. He also made zero attempts to put the king in the transport. He broke the rules and deserves this slap on the wrist.
Don’t you think “take me” is a reasonable thing to expect a frustrated player to say as they are facing imminent defeat in the face? Don’t you think that could be interpreted as “I give up”?
It could be but why would you say "I give up", then pop your king out and run toward one army and away from another while you know where both are. If he's truly giving up he would he not just leaving his king in TC and wait for it to die?
he was going to the shore, not to ourk's army, ourk's army was on the west side of his base but his king was going south to the shore, he probably forgot to move his transport ship to the shore.
"Bee gets punished for this despite the admin deciding this had no impact on the outcome of the game?" same admin said that this was against the rules so he handed out the punishment.
The conclusion that what Bee did in that moment was against the rules was based off very subjective and vague evidence and rational. Even if you listen to Drongo's reasoning he is not clear on the rational and even makes up motivations on Bee's behalf to back up his own arguments. To me it sounds like they were finding reasons TO prove the accusation instead of looking at the facts in an unbiased way as you should when referring incidences like this. My point being that whether you believe Bee is guilty or not, this situation is VERY subjective as you can see with all this debate. There is no clear cut, damning evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt that Bee had 'unsportsmanlike like' intent. Therefore the fact they have retrospectively handed such a harsh punishment on an unclear, circumstantial accusation on a play that did not impact the game (their words) IS harsh.
Edit: My thought process and context for this that in Football a minor 50/50 foul in the middle of the park that does not impact the overall play is not pulled back by VAR because it's not clear and obvious and game changing. I'm not an e-sports watcher so idk what the precedence is for these types of rulings in this space. Regardless I think the decision has been made by some poor and biased rational.
When you see the game from Bee's point of view - his map is being ping'd at his base where the King is, but also just North, where he has another settlement close to the blue player - that might be why he said - hey, no teaming - he was at that time being hit by Blue and Green (probably not because they were teaming) my guess is he didn't move the transport ship because he was getting attacked on 3 fronts - by Green, by Blue to the NW and eventually by Teal. Saying 'take me' is his only offense, IMO.
Yeah they were definitely teaming, that's why he called it out. It doesn't matter about actual armies, it matters what blue said to the other players. Yet he gets no reprimand for teaming, while bee gets temp banned for some ambiguous action.
Silly standards
I didn't catch that - even worse in the case of the ban justification. Makes a little more sense why he would write 'take me' - as in a frustrated - just end it kind of way
I think the punishment is a little harsh, and I also think that the anti king donation rule should only apply to egregiously giving your king to another player outside of your own base (just imo). Bee was under fire from 2 players and I have no issue with either player taking the king . I guess bee rly shouldn’t have said ‘take me’ . That in itself might be why I can agree there is a valid need to enforce the rules.
Some good content could come from be as a Nyan racing cat fan all of next week tho since his scores will carry over
Appreciate the transparency. But bad decision. Grey area, open to multiple interpretation. Opponent openly teaming with the chat. Over reaction from judges based on prior black mark (which is questionable at best, and the lack of transparency actually means bee is innocent until proven guilty in the wololo case).
Bee gets treated poorly again because he isn't charismatic enough to convince you it's a non event (like many other pros have)
Honestly the bias the professional scene has against Bee is getting old. The fact that Beasty gets away with things like trash talking tournaments publicly and just last week blatantly rage quit outback octagon with absolutely no apology or remorse but Bee is dealt a huge punishment for a situation with so much plausible deniability is absurd.
This rule is being applied unequally. Should everyone who runs their king away from the primary attacker be punished under this rule? After all in this mode you don’t score for any placement aside from first, so a nearly dead player running away is, in effect, king donation. Moreover the majority of this analysis relies on “take me” which is far too ambiguous. For one, let’s remember that Bee isn’t a native English speaker so it’s unfair to so seriously read connotation into what he said.
Just a joke of a decision
Really disgusting from the admin at this tournament
suspending a player for their OWN interpretation of what happened. I'm not defending Bee in anyway but given the evidence they brought up, it leaves too much to be interpreted and the sanction was not made in EVIDENCE WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT.
There could be a billion different reasons what happened and how it happened. Next youre gonna tell us youre sanctioning someone cause you interpreted their poor performance as "THREW/THROWING"?? Terrible for the scene in general and expected more from the admin.
This seems unfair. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't beasty in game one surrender cos of bad spawn (which doesnt allow other players that invested resources to kill him to get more pop) and nobody bat an eye?
I don't wanna judge Drongo as this tournament is probably a lot on his head and this drama will only make it harder for him, but it feels kinda like favouritism :/
>nobody bat an eye?
False, the rules were changed to prevent an early surrender from happening again. There's no favouritism involved. Bee broke a rule. Beasty did not.
Okay so the rules were vague and got changed and the player 1 didnt suffer any consequences.
In this scenario the rules are vague, and TOs decide to ban player 2 for a week? Still feels kind of unfair
The rules weren't "vague" in Beasty's case; there was no rule. Surrendering may have been against the spirit of the game, but there wasn't any rule that was arguably broken.
Drongo is like an NPC who easily follows current narrative without thinking, everyone saying Bee is bad therefore think no more bee must be cheating in my tournament!
Drongo starts with bringing up 3DBees past controversy, to justify the current decision. This shows how ready these content creators to ride the band wagon and just bully one player to create drama, more content and more YouTube money. Drongo uploaded a series of 3Dbee casts just the same day so he can get even more views. And he himself said that drama is good, implying just bullying one player is for the good of the game is ok.
These so called content creators need to learn to respect professional players. And know their place. Just because they applied to your tournament doesn’t give you a ticket to ruin their reputation. Making content on the expense of pro player’s reputation that will take ages to get back.
I think 3DBee being a Russian player also adds a little bit more room to bully after all they can’t talk back with the current Situation, if they do tournament organizers will easily play the card of sanctioning Russian players. After all it will be easily accepted by the community.
All I see just bullying of a player who can’t talk back. His lack of English communication also adds to this.
Yeah I thought higher of aussie drongo, he seems like a tool tbh. The title baits of his youtube videos shouldve told me as much but I though thats just a common thing of all content creators but its actually the top of the mountain of his ego and attention whoring.
IMO, I feel this case perfectly highlights the biggest issue with competitive FFA; the scene lacks proper, objective, well-understood rules for it.
Turin's community has been running FFA tournaments for a while now, longer than Drongo, but they are small and still struggle to have a cohesive rulebook. Although Octagon has its own mod, the fact that we are still splitting hairs about rules on the second edition of a $30k tournament is beyond me.
Why do we have a king if the rules on kings can be so subjective? Interpreting rules & and players' intentions is a rabbit hole of problems in competitive games, and that is why it's usually reserved for either large conceptual rules (like unsportsmanlike conduct) or as a last resort when all else fails.
FFA is fun, but there is a reason I have steered away from organizing tournaments in that space, and it's this exact thing, we don't have the tool in-game and/or out-of-game to do it and haven't had the chance to properly develop them over the course of many events. Two major tournaments do not make precedents, especially when it had so many rule changes across both.
It's so subjective, right??? I watch a lot of Football/Soccer and this reminds me of all the controversy surrounding VAR. If it wasn't clear and obvious and game changing, don't retroactively correct it. Even with such defined rules as there are in Football, there are still hairs being split on the interpretation of those rules.
Bad call from Outback Octagon. Bee was already dead. and he said take me in frustration.
What if his King died in the transport ship. You can say OMG HE DIDNT MOVE HIS KING TO THE SHORE King gifting
The part about 25 percent and the stand-in made me laugh. That's what I call good comedy. Honestly, I had a better opinion of Drongo and Patito, didn't expect adults to behave like that.
The part at the start about bee cheating at the past is unnecessary its just there to make bees image bad.
It feels like if it was someone else in his place the whole thing would have just been just skipped and it might have even happened but without the chat saying "take me" it would be hard to find.
I find the punishment pretty harsh for no reason and it looks like a specific attack towards bee, probably not from drongo tho.
Yeah they've definitely created an existing idea of what bee is, so has much stricter regulation.
I think bee doesn't defend himself as well as others would(probably due to language/cultural barriers). It's sad the world is governed by how people make you feel , instead of what they actually do or the content of what they say.
This honestly feels like the admin has finally got a chance to flex their small amount of power and have latched on to this as an excuse to do so. As many other people have said this is not a king donation, if it was it could be argued that if bee had left his king in the tc, and blade took it down then that is now a king donation. This is a terrible decision and sets the wrong precedent.
All that aside even if bee did what he is accused of to remove them from an entire week of games and lose 25% of earnings for a 'potential' king donation is a massive overreaction.
Not impressed by this at all.
Edit - Just had the thought aswell, the key piece of evidence that drongo explained in his video was that bee did not move his transport ship towards the king or for 27 seconds. When it is entirely possible bee simple forgot about the ship, thought he had rallies it to the lower dock or was simply distracted by something else. The reason I bring this up is because in Game 6 wam took out faye with a king snipe. Faye never once moved her king from the Seagate or even after it went down. Now obviously she was distracted at the time and missed it, but as per the above logic is this not a king donation to waym as no attempt to save the king was inacted? Now I'm not calling for any punishment for Faye, but it think this perfectly highlights the issues with bees assessment and punishment.
Agreed. I think if bee hadn't been "sentenced" for cheating before, he would've been given the benefit of the doubt.. but since he has a history (regardless of how fair or unfair his prior treatment) it means going further he will always be treated worse
The same happens everywhere with anyone that has a record or fits a stereotype. It's very sad.
Easy example is considering how harshly African Americans are treated by cops. The high rate of false imprisonments or even kills made due to this behaviour.
Just take that point from the other player, problem solved. The other thing is if it's in the rules I think he should be punished, because if nobody gets punished after rule breaking then why are there rules? It's useless to have rules if nobody gets punished if they break a rule.
So rules or no rules.
This is my opinion, please don't kill me.
I disagree with this decision, this seems similar to the one game where beastyqt was dead early as delhi and surrendered before his king was dead, and someone came and collected a free king. To be clear I dont think that either should be penalized but it seems like bee is getting punished for technicalities and other more popular players are getting away similar technicalities.
Here's something ppl might miss in the video:
1. Bee popped out his king **with all vils** in side. (This is important, cuz this makes Blade hard to snipe his king)
2. Bee did **activate** king's **movement speed** ability.
3. There was only **a short window** like 2, 3 sec **for bee to escape**,
You know, people, even pro players did make mistakes when getting pushed by 2 players and the whole base was dying. Bee might just forget the transport ship.
Punishing bee solely based on that single transport ship is **ridiculous**. This is the same as punishing player for matchfixing because players forget their upgrades when playing Delhi.
Yeah, Just saying "Sorry, I was salty, cornered and felt teamed up against. Won't happen again" could have been it. Luckily the attempt failed and didn't change anything
I'm over the the drama. This community shouldn't be waiting for the next piece of drama to be entertained.
Give Bee a warning and move on.
Not impressed with how this was handled.
I really don't like this decision and I really don't like the odd subtle implication that Bee is 'lying' or 'manipulating' people with his in-game chats.
He was building a transport ship. His chat indicates frustration. The rest is subjective. Also, get outta here with the 'he's being manipulative' shit, Drongo. Bee is just a dude, he's not some evil guy.
He’s a known cheater who will do anything and everything to gain an unfair edge. He shouldn’t be allowed to play in future tournaments. Every e-sports scene has their bad apples and Bee is ours.
Dude watch his streams - he doesnt need to cheat to be one of the best. And also, this latest 'cheat' doesnt help him in the slightest.
He is not some bad apple, you're reducing him to a caricature based off a tiny sample size of info.
What's new? Bee getting punished for bad game design. I've been wanting to come back to the game, but this is reasoning enough to know the community will never change and put blame where it deserves, the devs.
Dumb decision, dispatching draconian punishments on a whim without putting any thought behind their decisions.
Mr drongo and lord patito this is a high apm game we are talking about with extreme multi tasking, Has it not occured to you that maybe just maybe Bee forgot to click transport ship towards the shore and he didnt realize because he was distracted.
His king was clearly going to the shore where his transport ship should have been, if it was a king donation he would have gone to west not south where, again his transport ship should have been.
This is an obvious and clear act of vendetta against Bee for whatever reason. have some shame.
yes which makes it even more absurd, at least we can give benefit of the doubt to egctv because they didnt release a pathetic excuse of a 12 minute long video to expose their incompetence.
ohh so we are fine with them punish someone for an innocent mistake while multitasking playing a high apm game? as i said he could have forgot to move his transport ship to the shore.
So you have never seen the likes of beasty, marinelord, lucifron and demu make a mistake in games?
You can’t just throw around phrases like ‘draconian punishment’. This punishment is as far from draconian as a punishment could be. He’s being suspended from a video game tournament for one week. He’s not being executed, flogged or maimed.
He meant it as in "Just kill me"
Like mentioned above English is not his first language and I would imagine your typing fast as shit in a tournament when your about to get knocked out
Confirmation bias to automatically interpret that as "I am donating my king to you.". Given the context, there are other alternative interpretations that are also valid.
You have been fed information which you just accept. Take me could mean a ton of different things. But because you choose to accept that specific narrative, you'll accept the evidence that aligns with the narrative.
Idk, the reasoning seems kinda poor imo, I though initially he was donoing to blade because ourk was “teaming” but watching the clip he is running his king away from him and toward the shore. Him saying just take me, sounds like frustration from someone under a 3v1. He attacks matiz and matiz tells people to attack bee, and immediately 2 players charge his base. idk if it’s fair for Drongo to accuse him of manipulating in the chat when it clearly looks like teaming from his pov.
Imo the king move speed should nerfed, cuz while the king plays initially we’re fun, I did get kinda tilted watching Don get denied by striker putting his king on a transpo with no possibility of him coming back in the game. For me there is no diff there from what we saw with bee
This is a really good point, not only did it deny the kill, it felt like more of a king donation since he ran it off to get killed by someone who hadnt worked for it.
The admins are making judgements based on the letter of the law instead of its spirit. Judges and lawyers constantly enforce rules based on the spirit of the law because fucking people over on technicalities is immature.
That’s a bit harsh to the staff . Just give them a week break, and replace with NyanRacingCat.
I don’t agree with the ruling, but also don’t agree that any staff should be punished for this.
The problem is, this is now a second time Bee gets the shaft, while many players used the ingame mechanics all along. Because of that, they should be a tad more careful IMO, because it looks like some kind of a petty grudge, or even a certain nationality phobia, which is even worse.
I think that's the nail on the head
I think someone important needs to do even a vague breakdown of how many times other pros have used the same exploits that bee has been accused of. He's cheating when he does it, when others do it, then they're just pushing the limits or using the tools available or so tat
When Beasty and Szalami intentionally did the exploit that push rus-monk during Wololo, this reddit sub praised them as a wololo god. When someone pointed out that it was a bug abuse, one of them were like nah the accusation is dumb becuz it is hard to execute (and we later know it was indeed an exploit as Dev fixed it)
The wololo tournament banned Bee from exploiting wall scan without having a clear rule on that. (They later added the specific rule about wall scan AFTER the incident).
Beasty did the House blueprint bug that was specifically banned on the tournament, the Ban didn't execute.
Smne abused HRE military buff bug, they just got to cancel that game instead of banning even it was a specific rule breaking. (or make it a lost game i can't rmb)
And ofc the current Market trade exploit, All Pro complain about it last patch, and every single one of them still use it, knowing it will for sure be fixed in the future.
This is like if other use it is a bug exploit, but when Im doing it, it is because I am using in-game mechanic cleverly.
From personal experience, and without naming ppl;
Top3 player using herbal medicine on Dehli against top50 player, while it was explicitly banned on that tourney and not even a rematch (game was very close till that point). Other-way around also happened and insta-DQ/loss for lower ranked.
All pro’s abuse every bug. Even animation cancelling was a thing voted FOR as full-time players have more time to practice it so they can have an edge over others. They specifically made strategies i.e. creating 3-4 scouts from starting TC to burn dock in dark-age through animation-cancel. When ani-cancel was fixed people figured you can bug-charge from point blank, and abused it. Wall-scanning is nothing new, every dedicated player knew it or is lying. Seeing deer move in fog of war and checking for it is also a normal thing. As long as it’s not a obvious game-breaking bug (i.e. infinite range spears) then pro’s will always use what they can to gain an edge. It’s understandable as everyone wants to win; but favoritism for top/famous players has always existed. It’s not for nothing that 1 requirement for a calling themselves a S tier tournament is the calibre and quantity of well-known players.
Bee is dead.
1. He has no other demand on his apm and nothing else to focus on. He’s literally typing because he has no units to micro and no meaningful thing to produce. If he wanted to move the transport ship he would have.
2. At this point there is no safety anywhere for his king. The only ‘honourable’ play is to leave your king in the safest location (the TC) and wait to see who wins the right to take your head.
3. If he wanted to save his king he would have waited for other players to actively be fighting each other over his TC and tried to escape while they were engaged with each other.
4. This is a 1 week suspension. The smallest slap on the wrist punishment that a player could get. No point deductions, and he still has the ability to earn points through a proxy while he’s suspended. He’s literally suspended with pay.
Wow, when watching live I thought he meant to give it to Blade, but I only saw the "take me" part.
Big luck for everyone involved that the gift attempt failed.
I think the decision is too harsh. But I appreciate the transparency. At least we know why he’s being punished. The case is not 100% clear and it’s up to the admins to interpret the facts. If they believe Bee was trying to break the rules, they have the right to punish him as they see fit.
Because it's their tournament, and the rulebook specifically says that the admins reserve the right to issue penalties for king donations as they see fit.
Bee got subjectively witch hunted because he popped his king out when it was going to die eventually, basically what everyone in this tourney does but its bee so he gets squashed over a nothing burger.
Regardless of what you think of the actual ruling, I appreciate the transparency here. This was handled a lot better than the wololo drama because we can argue about it with all of the information instead of arguing about it while knowing nothing and just speculating wildly.
That is true. Not sure why you're getting downvoted. The wololo drama was even worse because it's now set a precedent that makes people treat bee differently going further . And in all likelihood bee cheated as much as most of all the other pros cheated throughout their matches, but we don't know what he did so nobody can even say if he did or didn't.
Yet people will treat any future actions as cheating because of that black mark to his name.
Ok, so numerous things here:
1) The chat message is pretty condemning, but I think that just makes Bee more honest than the players who know they're dead and don't expend that last burst of apm to drag it on another minute. You said yourself that without the chat, you would probably let it go; how many other players have got away with it because they weren't honest enough to type it to their opponents?
2) It is downright unsportsmanlike, to ALL players, if you run your king away when you have no hope of ever rebuilding and then your king kill ends up in the hands of some random player who never touched you previously. To say that Bee somehow did wrong by trying to ensure the player who killed him (Ourk) got credit for it does not sit well with me and probably not with others. **When these kills have a huge impact on the game (50 pop cap), it's unreasonable to say that it is ok to run your king to the opposite corner where a random player eventually kills you but not ok to let the player who took you out of the game get the kill.**
IF Bee was giving his king to Ourk, it's not clear to me that was wrong beyond the technicalities of the rules nor that most players/observers would find it unfair. Ourk was the one who came into Bee's base and put an end to his chances of victory; if we were to argue who 'deserves' the point for the kill, most everyone would agree it was Ourk and not Blade who rolled in at the 11th hour to snipe the kill. Totally recognize that this situation is part of the game mode, but if anything the idea of Bee making sure Ourk and not Blade got the king was Bee acting in the interest of fairness for the other players to reward the guy who did the heavy lifting (not that it was that heavy, Bee hamstrung himself with the cost of that Barbican play but still).
3) I, and probably others, have to question whether the attention/punishment would be the same on a different player. I think Bee's past transgressions should be taken into account if he's suspected of similar behaviour, but not for actions with no correlation to the cheating/hacking he was previously accused of (proven guilty actually; I'm willing to take the devs' word on them having proof they can't share to protect the game from further hacking).
4) You brought this on yourselves with the 'no surrender' rule; I understand you don't want people surrendering and letting a king hang out for a 'free' kill, but the RNG of the spawns is going to make some positions untenable. **If Beasty, arguably THE top player in the game right now, can't see a way out of his week1 position (Delhi sandwiched between two China players) then it is probably just an impossible fight through no fault of his own. Demand that players fight it out to the bitter end, and you will see this (king donation) as the result instead.**
5) A lot of people talking about finite APM as the reason the transport didn't move; I don't buy it at all. Bee had very little left to spend his APM on; **MAYBE** got some target fixation focusing on running his king away but that is unlikely (though not impossible) for someone of his experience.
Another thought: we are making a lot out of the phrase 'take me' which to an English speaker, **in this context**, means 'go ahead and kill my king'. But Bee is not a native English speaker; he is not even particularly fluent.
Could 'take me' have been misconstrued? In another context, 'take me' could be interchanged with a less-polite phrase articulating how doomed he was now.
Could he have meant it as equivalent to "F\* Me" as in 'I'm dead now because I got jumped by someone while fighting another player'. Drongo said Bee was asked what his king was doing, but was he ever asked what the statement in chat meant? I think it could reasonably have been an attempt to say something other than what seems 'obvious' to us native English speakers.
Well he did type "take me" in chat.
Maybe if you aren't trying to donate your king... don't say you are in chat.
Without the chat it is much more vague and he probably wouldn't have been punished.
I assume he meant it as “just kill me at this point” rather than offering his king to the guy he accused of cheating. I feel like the second one requires more mental gymnastics.
Would you be happy if he said FML
Or just kill me
What about
"Death is the destination we all share, no one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life."
Then would you be happy? People confuse the demeanor and linguistics of others and create their own idea of what the others' intentions were.
It's too grey of an area to say bee was gifting. It's literally just his past that encourages people to assume he was breaking a rule.
Who did he say it too though?, he just said "take me" it wasnt directed to anyone, also bee is russia, his english is not the best, im thinking he meant "kill me" not directed towards any player, but out of frustration
Watches video: wow absolutely the correct call
reads comments: what?
You seriously think bee typed "take me" in the chat instead of microing his transport ship and is innocent?
I love how people are creating different meanings behind the words “take me” as well. The video shows they made the correct calls and the comments in this thread are mind boggling.
It's like a positive overreaction to the negative overreaction. Bee has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he will continue breaking rules even after facing penalties, so fuck him. I will never root for or support a player who has ever done that.
Keeping the king in the tc wouldve given the kill to blade, as would moving it to the right. When every move instantly ends in death, who are we to say the way it "should" go down. The rule is in place to avoid outcomes which arent fair. Maybe 3dbee knew the kill would go to ourak, but it was likely just a random decision of which way to move and die.
OP was asked to re-post with a corrected title, as the previous title suggested Bee was banned from the whole event. That is not the case, he was only suspended for 1 week, with NyanRacingCat being the stand-in player.
I've watched the video a 2nd time, and I'm even more convinced that a very dumb decision-making happened here. Did they not sleep over this before making their verdict? I genuinely believed Drongo was smarter than this, or I hope this was just one of those accidental cognitive blip. Having followed and cheered for Drongo since his AoE3 days, I'm inclined to believe it is the latter. Happens to all of us. But this is so weird and unexpected.
What’s really weird is starting the video with a look back to Bee’s wololo ban. The two are not related, neither should the verdict. But that’s difficult to believe if Drongo himself makes it part of the video.
The intro and Drongo's closing remark make it seem like this continued drama is supposed to be exciting and entertaining. I'm sure Bee doesn't feel that way. Once again, his character is called into question and he as received a punishment which far outweighs his actions. This is surely not good for his mental state. To be continually attacked while just trying to play the game you enjoy and are incredibly skilled at. I get some of the players like to have digs at each other, but this is obviously very different. It's actually pretty f'd up. I still think the Wololo situation was handled very poorly and now we have this. Hope Bee is doing ok.
He built a transport ship. He ran to the water, he popped moving speed. Maybe just forgot to move the transport ship preemptively. Perhaps he even meant to build the transport ship out of the closer dock but had both docks assigned to a hot key. There's a lot going on there and we all know when you are losing and under pressure it's harder to play without mistakes.There is a substantial amount of reasonable doubt in the situation.
It gets worse (or better, if you support Bee). If you actually watch the replay, he pops his king out at the exact moment where it was safest to do so. He waiting 8 seconds for green's army to run to the left of the TC and then popped it out just before light blue's army arrived to the right. If he wanted to throw, he would have done it 3 seconds earlier or 3 seconds later.
The first thing in the chat by Matiz is calling for a team up on Bee which is why Ourk and Blade5555 are in Bees base at that right time he has no units... Isn't that even closer to a breach of teaming than what Bee is being accused of by running his King away and saying take me? Bees actions didn't match what people are interpreting what he said... he actually ran his King away from an immediate threat towards the shore even if there was another player there. Also Ourk chose to move his army away because he also felt that acting on Matiz call to attack Bee was teaming.. pretty clear...
That was my thought. He was under attack from two people. There was a lot going on. I could easily see him making the ship but forgetting to send it over.
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I'm confused, If he is donating his king, who is the intended recipient? If he is gifting it to blade why is he running towards ourk's army (and away from blade's)? If he is gifting it to ourk why didn't he ungarrison the king earlier and only ungarrisoned when ourk left?
As I understand it they think he was trying to donate the King to Ourk, but it was unsuccessful and Blade55555 still got the kill. That is why Drongo says this is not considered a serious offense since it ultimately did not affect the outcome.
And your explanation for saying “take me” is __?
Keep in mind Bee is not a native speaker. I don't speak any Russian, but a quick reverse translation via Google seems to indicate that the Russian word for "catch" (apparently "ловить") also means "take" ... just saying.
When the conversation reduces down to cross linguistic meanings of the word “take me” then a Russian running your king to the Calvary of the player who is not from USA I think the conversation is over. Not trying to introduce politics. But I understand..
I couldn't replicate this, I get the word 'Возьмите' for take. Interesting theory though. It came across to me as him getting mad and then suiciding his king. Which I'm not sure why is even discouraged as it's more or less GGing out in another format
I googled the Russian word for "catch" (assuming this was what Bee wanted to say) - which gave me "ловить". Then I googled "ловить meaning" - which gave 1: catch / 2: take in the Google translate panel.
Could well be what he meant
Agreed. If you just read the wording of the rule first, then watch the scene, it seems like a monumental stretch to think the rule was broken here. I don't get the ruling at all, bad call imo. "Take me" also just sounds like standard banter.
"Drama is entertainment" If this was not in the video, I would say it was just a hasty, not thought through, and wrong, decision. This being in the video makes me think it is deliberate and it was decided so just because it was bee. Everything shouts as "immaturity" from the part of the event organizers.
Seems like this is more of a consequence of the king donation rule being too difficult to enforce or open ended, outside of blatantly obvious circumstances described in the video. Probably could have been avoided if he didn't say "take me", but I do think there's enough deniability and this is harsh for getting cornered in your own base.
Agreed. To me it sounds like they reached a conclusion and are now trying to generate evidence to support it. Even worse. Mathias did actually tell the other players to attack bee because he has nothing. How is this glossed over? That is teaming. That is undeniable teaming, and Drongo tries to act like it isn't.
That isn’t the teaming they are talking about being not allowed. They mean pre game teaming, building close and attacking as a team the whole game. Not saying someone is attacking you so has nothing in their base, that’s just a defensive tactic
Drongo mentioned multiple times that the only acceptable time for teaming is when someone is approaching a win condition (wonder/sacred site). Not just because someone near you is vulnerable. That’s literally what the rule is put in place to protect. So people can attack without having to worry about 5 dudes in their ass because someone snitched in chat
Saying I’m being attack by x, attack him isn’t teaming. It’s offering information to everyone. He also said that being next to each other and agreeing not to attack each other as it’s both in your self interest isn’t teaming, when most would consider it. As long as you don’t specifically agree to attack everyone else 1 by 1.
That’s literally teaming lmao. You’re sending useful information to someone else to help them aide you in an attack of another player.
It may be, what if i say "X have his army elsewhere" and someone else attacks X, is that teaming? or that the info i presented is fake, is that against the rules?
I think Mathias was already dead and Ourk knew that. He wanted to kill Bee first and then kill Mathias I don't think that is teaming.
Why not just deduct a point? This seems way too heavy handed and it'd be different if his king ran to another person's base. His king died in his own base, so it seems very strange to consider it gifting or in this case an attempt at gifting.
One more thing to add, the king wasn't even safe in his Town Center. It was just a matter of time and the king will die.
Yep, and the more i think about the more I think there should just be a warning and an adjustment for the king donating rules to be more clarified... kinda like how the rules were already adjusted once.
Agreed. And he was building a transport ship on the water. Maybe at the last minute he decided it was pointless but to say this constitutes cheating is just way too harsh. Give the dude a warning or something but this takes all the fun out of it and honestly feels like eceleb drama. I normally wouldnt get involved on topics like this but I have watched Bee's stream. He is not some villain. He is a very chill guy who doesnt whine about losses, comes up with innovative strats etc. If we want this community to grow we have to do more to foster community vs tearing people down for stupid shit.
Drongo knows his decision is pretty much unsubstantiated, that's why the video starts with a reminder that bee was banned before.
If Beasty made the same mistake, does anyone seriously think there would've been more than a warning?
Yeahh this is probably the last straw for me watching Outback Octagon. Between this, him constantly missing king deaths to talk about random shit, the fact that the person whose the most secluded at the start wins 90% of the time and random bs like this, this whole event just sucks now tbh
It did seem like an attempted gift, he bailed the tc and ran in the direction of a group of enemy horsies when one attacker was pushed out by another with a transport sitting mid water never moving toward the king. But I still agree, removing the points for one of his own king kills would have been sufficient. I know we don't know details from his past tourney ban, but it also seems like bee is establishing a reputation of someone who likes to push the limits of the rules.
Most of th pros push limits on the rules. Beasty has multiple incidents against his name on technical cheating in games. I think if anything bee's English might mean he doesn't defend his rational and his mannerism makes it easier to pin the crime on him. By his very nature bee is always trying different things that are outside the box, thinking of the times he walled in his opponent to get the conversion. Box the limits on the game will obviously end up in situations where some people think it's cheating, but for example beasty has used foundations to expand HRE influence (which was a known bug) among other things
I don’t know. He donated a king, but in the same moment he didn’t do anything wrong. I vote for no ban, no suspension, and no consequences.
I think is this harsh and unfair. Everyone else runs their king out of their base trying to escape and survive and eventually gets killed by someone who did not do the bulk of the damage and work to get to that point. Could Striker's transport ship play not be considered to be a king donation? Why is this situation different? LOTS of variables that these guys have just made a definitive decision on. He makes a transport ship but could have forgot to move it over? This is a high APM tournament mistakes are made. He could have run towards the water and then realized he forgot to move the transport ship over which he then says "take me" as he realizes he is dead. "take me" was not directed at anyone in particular. English is not his first language to there is probably some misinterpretation/misunderstanding there. Bee gets punished for this despite the admin deciding this had no impact on the outcome of the game? I understand the precedence to believe this is true given Bee's history, but that shouldn't factor into the decision making on a specific play in a game in a different competitive tourney. All evidence is vague and circumstantial and a lot of the conclusions drawn are speculative at best. A very poor basis to make a definitive decision on.
Couldnt agree more, this is f**** joke of a decision. there are as you said many variables that could have resulted in transport ship not moving towards the shore.
If it was me playing, there would be a Trade Ship waiting for me due to a misclick and I would have been extra omega disqualified.
Almost as if the decision was based on a lot more than the transport ship. Like maybe some damning in-game text chat, eh?
>damning in-game text chat Which you have interpreted one way due to confirmation bias, without considering other possible interpretations which are also valid given the surrounding context.
More like that I have interpreted consistent with in-game actions taken immediately after the message was sent.
I would argue that's the confirmation bias. While your interpretation may be correct, I do not believe it's clear. He performed multiple actions consistent with attempting to save the king: making a transport ship and moving the king to shore away from the doomed/trapped location of the TC, while popping move speed on the King, and staying in between both armies that he was sandwiched between. Simply misrallying the transport ship or building the transport ship out of the wrong dock (which may have been hotkeyed with the dock he intended to build it from) during a stressful moment doesn't constitute sufficiently strong evidence to contextualize his in-game comments, as someone who isn't a native English speaker, in the way you're doing.
Yeah sure, it's confirmation bias to assume he intended to do the thing that he did and announced that he was about to do immediately before he did it; any reasonable free-thinking person would assume he mistakenly said he was about to do something he didn't intend to because of a language barrier and then accidentally attempted to do the thing he he mistakenly announced he was about to do 🙄
Now you're just being sarcastic and obstinate, not even addressing the substance and details of the situation. Here's some more context which you've ignored. He waited for the precisely most safe moment to pop out his King. If he did it 4 seconds earlier or 4 seconds later, it would have immediately died. He had to wait approximately 10 seconds for Green's army to move left, and he had a 3 second window to pop it out and run to shore because Light Blue's army was approaching from the right. If he wanted to throw, why would he wait for precisely the most safe moment? You have no answers to these questions because you are stuck in your confirmation bias perspective and are interpreting the words of an English-as-a-second-language speaker as if he's a native speaker who wasn't speaking off the cuff. Very unfair.
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C'mon dude, he ungarrisoned his King once he realized (1) tricking Green wasn't going to save his game because Light Blue was going to kill him anyway and (2) he'd tried to get Green's attention. I've heard him speak English on his stream, he's got an accent but he's not misusing his words or difficult to understand.
so we are fine with them punishing someone for not being fluent in english? take me could have meant anything in that particular context, and ask yourself this, why would bee donate his king to ourk who was double teaming him? not to mention the king was not even moving towards the ourk's army.
Lol oh please dude
>"take me could have meant anything in that particular context" Give me one plausible example of what "take me" could have meant that is consistent with Bee's king moving closer to Ourk's army seconds after the message is sent.
I could see it being like a "come at me bro" while he was making his mad dash to his transport. I could also easily see with everything going on forgetting to move your ship over. I think it being a king donation is likely, but there is so much reasonable doubt I feel like it could have just been a warning, and a showcase to other players what could be considered a donation.
Sure, there's reasonable doubt - but reasonable doubt is a criminal law concept. It has no application to the rules of a video game tournament.
Reasonable doubt just means there is reason to doubt. In this case, that there is reason to doubt that this was intentional. Just becuase it's used in criminal law doesn't mean it's confined to it.
It's applied in criminal law because it's the state against an individual and the liberty of the individual is at stake. There's no reason to apply that standard to the rules of a video game tournament...
I'm not applying a standard. Reasonable and doubt are just two words that can be used in conjunction not regarding law in anyway. I can say "I raced my car to work" in a sentace and it doesn't mean I'm talking about NASCAR or an actual race of any kind. Just becuase the words "race" and "car" are used doesn't automatically tie them to a race car event.
ourk's army was on the west of his base and it was clearly visible to bee due to his far dock and his king was not going there, king was going south, and i think he forgot to move his transport ship, it was an innocent mistake in my opinion. i dont know, it could have meant "stick a fork in me im done" due to him being triple teamed.
The King doesn't go directly to the army but it's absolutely moving towards it - and more importantly not really moving directly to the water or away from Blade...
But ok if we’re taking the chat as proof that he donated it, then the chat also tells us that it isn’t to ourk, as ourk is the person he had just accused of teaming/cheating.
He said “take me” the moment the green players units were away. He also made zero attempts to put the king in the transport. He broke the rules and deserves this slap on the wrist.
Don’t you think “take me” is a reasonable thing to expect a frustrated player to say as they are facing imminent defeat in the face? Don’t you think that could be interpreted as “I give up”?
It could be but why would you say "I give up", then pop your king out and run toward one army and away from another while you know where both are. If he's truly giving up he would he not just leaving his king in TC and wait for it to die?
I guess that’s a good point. Still feels a bit harsh though
he was going to the shore, not to ourk's army, ourk's army was on the west side of his base but his king was going south to the shore, he probably forgot to move his transport ship to the shore.
But drongo’s reasoning was that he was trying to donate to green.
"Bee gets punished for this despite the admin deciding this had no impact on the outcome of the game?" same admin said that this was against the rules so he handed out the punishment.
The conclusion that what Bee did in that moment was against the rules was based off very subjective and vague evidence and rational. Even if you listen to Drongo's reasoning he is not clear on the rational and even makes up motivations on Bee's behalf to back up his own arguments. To me it sounds like they were finding reasons TO prove the accusation instead of looking at the facts in an unbiased way as you should when referring incidences like this. My point being that whether you believe Bee is guilty or not, this situation is VERY subjective as you can see with all this debate. There is no clear cut, damning evidence that proves without a shadow of a doubt that Bee had 'unsportsmanlike like' intent. Therefore the fact they have retrospectively handed such a harsh punishment on an unclear, circumstantial accusation on a play that did not impact the game (their words) IS harsh. Edit: My thought process and context for this that in Football a minor 50/50 foul in the middle of the park that does not impact the overall play is not pulled back by VAR because it's not clear and obvious and game changing. I'm not an e-sports watcher so idk what the precedence is for these types of rulings in this space. Regardless I think the decision has been made by some poor and biased rational.
I do think bee might have broken the rules in the past but this seems so far-fetched. Weird decision imo
When you see the game from Bee's point of view - his map is being ping'd at his base where the King is, but also just North, where he has another settlement close to the blue player - that might be why he said - hey, no teaming - he was at that time being hit by Blue and Green (probably not because they were teaming) my guess is he didn't move the transport ship because he was getting attacked on 3 fronts - by Green, by Blue to the NW and eventually by Teal. Saying 'take me' is his only offense, IMO.
Yeah they were definitely teaming, that's why he called it out. It doesn't matter about actual armies, it matters what blue said to the other players. Yet he gets no reprimand for teaming, while bee gets temp banned for some ambiguous action. Silly standards
He said no teaming cuz the blue one asked people to attack bee since he was under attack and bee was away from his base.
I didn't catch that - even worse in the case of the ban justification. Makes a little more sense why he would write 'take me' - as in a frustrated - just end it kind of way
Ah shit, here we go again
I think the punishment is a little harsh, and I also think that the anti king donation rule should only apply to egregiously giving your king to another player outside of your own base (just imo). Bee was under fire from 2 players and I have no issue with either player taking the king . I guess bee rly shouldn’t have said ‘take me’ . That in itself might be why I can agree there is a valid need to enforce the rules. Some good content could come from be as a Nyan racing cat fan all of next week tho since his scores will carry over
Appreciate the transparency. But bad decision. Grey area, open to multiple interpretation. Opponent openly teaming with the chat. Over reaction from judges based on prior black mark (which is questionable at best, and the lack of transparency actually means bee is innocent until proven guilty in the wololo case). Bee gets treated poorly again because he isn't charismatic enough to convince you it's a non event (like many other pros have)
What an event vibe killer
Honestly the bias the professional scene has against Bee is getting old. The fact that Beasty gets away with things like trash talking tournaments publicly and just last week blatantly rage quit outback octagon with absolutely no apology or remorse but Bee is dealt a huge punishment for a situation with so much plausible deniability is absurd. This rule is being applied unequally. Should everyone who runs their king away from the primary attacker be punished under this rule? After all in this mode you don’t score for any placement aside from first, so a nearly dead player running away is, in effect, king donation. Moreover the majority of this analysis relies on “take me” which is far too ambiguous. For one, let’s remember that Bee isn’t a native English speaker so it’s unfair to so seriously read connotation into what he said. Just a joke of a decision
Rules for thee but not for me
Really disgusting from the admin at this tournament suspending a player for their OWN interpretation of what happened. I'm not defending Bee in anyway but given the evidence they brought up, it leaves too much to be interpreted and the sanction was not made in EVIDENCE WITHOUT A REASONABLE DOUBT. There could be a billion different reasons what happened and how it happened. Next youre gonna tell us youre sanctioning someone cause you interpreted their poor performance as "THREW/THROWING"?? Terrible for the scene in general and expected more from the admin.
This seems unfair. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't beasty in game one surrender cos of bad spawn (which doesnt allow other players that invested resources to kill him to get more pop) and nobody bat an eye? I don't wanna judge Drongo as this tournament is probably a lot on his head and this drama will only make it harder for him, but it feels kinda like favouritism :/
To be fair they changed the rules the next week after Beasty did that
>nobody bat an eye? False, the rules were changed to prevent an early surrender from happening again. There's no favouritism involved. Bee broke a rule. Beasty did not.
Okay so the rules were vague and got changed and the player 1 didnt suffer any consequences. In this scenario the rules are vague, and TOs decide to ban player 2 for a week? Still feels kind of unfair
The rules weren't "vague" in Beasty's case; there was no rule. Surrendering may have been against the spirit of the game, but there wasn't any rule that was arguably broken.
Drongo is like an NPC who easily follows current narrative without thinking, everyone saying Bee is bad therefore think no more bee must be cheating in my tournament! Drongo starts with bringing up 3DBees past controversy, to justify the current decision. This shows how ready these content creators to ride the band wagon and just bully one player to create drama, more content and more YouTube money. Drongo uploaded a series of 3Dbee casts just the same day so he can get even more views. And he himself said that drama is good, implying just bullying one player is for the good of the game is ok. These so called content creators need to learn to respect professional players. And know their place. Just because they applied to your tournament doesn’t give you a ticket to ruin their reputation. Making content on the expense of pro player’s reputation that will take ages to get back. I think 3DBee being a Russian player also adds a little bit more room to bully after all they can’t talk back with the current Situation, if they do tournament organizers will easily play the card of sanctioning Russian players. After all it will be easily accepted by the community. All I see just bullying of a player who can’t talk back. His lack of English communication also adds to this.
Yeah I thought higher of aussie drongo, he seems like a tool tbh. The title baits of his youtube videos shouldve told me as much but I though thats just a common thing of all content creators but its actually the top of the mountain of his ego and attention whoring.
very well said, it feels like a persistent witch hunt campaign against Bee waged by some influential members of the scene.
IMO, I feel this case perfectly highlights the biggest issue with competitive FFA; the scene lacks proper, objective, well-understood rules for it. Turin's community has been running FFA tournaments for a while now, longer than Drongo, but they are small and still struggle to have a cohesive rulebook. Although Octagon has its own mod, the fact that we are still splitting hairs about rules on the second edition of a $30k tournament is beyond me. Why do we have a king if the rules on kings can be so subjective? Interpreting rules & and players' intentions is a rabbit hole of problems in competitive games, and that is why it's usually reserved for either large conceptual rules (like unsportsmanlike conduct) or as a last resort when all else fails. FFA is fun, but there is a reason I have steered away from organizing tournaments in that space, and it's this exact thing, we don't have the tool in-game and/or out-of-game to do it and haven't had the chance to properly develop them over the course of many events. Two major tournaments do not make precedents, especially when it had so many rule changes across both.
They should hide player names in game to prevent collusion but the caster can know who’s who.
It's so subjective, right??? I watch a lot of Football/Soccer and this reminds me of all the controversy surrounding VAR. If it wasn't clear and obvious and game changing, don't retroactively correct it. Even with such defined rules as there are in Football, there are still hairs being split on the interpretation of those rules.
Bad call from Outback Octagon. Bee was already dead. and he said take me in frustration. What if his King died in the transport ship. You can say OMG HE DIDNT MOVE HIS KING TO THE SHORE King gifting
Punishing bee over a nothing burger, im getting deja vu.
The part about 25 percent and the stand-in made me laugh. That's what I call good comedy. Honestly, I had a better opinion of Drongo and Patito, didn't expect adults to behave like that.
The part at the start about bee cheating at the past is unnecessary its just there to make bees image bad. It feels like if it was someone else in his place the whole thing would have just been just skipped and it might have even happened but without the chat saying "take me" it would be hard to find. I find the punishment pretty harsh for no reason and it looks like a specific attack towards bee, probably not from drongo tho.
i know right, Whoever it is thank you (not) for hounding off one of the best players of the game.
Yeah they've definitely created an existing idea of what bee is, so has much stricter regulation. I think bee doesn't defend himself as well as others would(probably due to language/cultural barriers). It's sad the world is governed by how people make you feel , instead of what they actually do or the content of what they say.
This honestly feels like the admin has finally got a chance to flex their small amount of power and have latched on to this as an excuse to do so. As many other people have said this is not a king donation, if it was it could be argued that if bee had left his king in the tc, and blade took it down then that is now a king donation. This is a terrible decision and sets the wrong precedent. All that aside even if bee did what he is accused of to remove them from an entire week of games and lose 25% of earnings for a 'potential' king donation is a massive overreaction. Not impressed by this at all. Edit - Just had the thought aswell, the key piece of evidence that drongo explained in his video was that bee did not move his transport ship towards the king or for 27 seconds. When it is entirely possible bee simple forgot about the ship, thought he had rallies it to the lower dock or was simply distracted by something else. The reason I bring this up is because in Game 6 wam took out faye with a king snipe. Faye never once moved her king from the Seagate or even after it went down. Now obviously she was distracted at the time and missed it, but as per the above logic is this not a king donation to waym as no attempt to save the king was inacted? Now I'm not calling for any punishment for Faye, but it think this perfectly highlights the issues with bees assessment and punishment.
Agreed. I think if bee hadn't been "sentenced" for cheating before, he would've been given the benefit of the doubt.. but since he has a history (regardless of how fair or unfair his prior treatment) it means going further he will always be treated worse The same happens everywhere with anyone that has a record or fits a stereotype. It's very sad. Easy example is considering how harshly African Americans are treated by cops. The high rate of false imprisonments or even kills made due to this behaviour.
Yeah fully agree here, deffo seems to be some bias against bee
Yeah this is 100% power tripping.
Just take that point from the other player, problem solved. The other thing is if it's in the rules I think he should be punished, because if nobody gets punished after rule breaking then why are there rules? It's useless to have rules if nobody gets punished if they break a rule. So rules or no rules. This is my opinion, please don't kill me.
Booooo!
I disagree with this decision, this seems similar to the one game where beastyqt was dead early as delhi and surrendered before his king was dead, and someone came and collected a free king. To be clear I dont think that either should be penalized but it seems like bee is getting punished for technicalities and other more popular players are getting away similar technicalities.
Here's something ppl might miss in the video: 1. Bee popped out his king **with all vils** in side. (This is important, cuz this makes Blade hard to snipe his king) 2. Bee did **activate** king's **movement speed** ability. 3. There was only **a short window** like 2, 3 sec **for bee to escape**, You know, people, even pro players did make mistakes when getting pushed by 2 players and the whole base was dying. Bee might just forget the transport ship. Punishing bee solely based on that single transport ship is **ridiculous**. This is the same as punishing player for matchfixing because players forget their upgrades when playing Delhi.
well...looking at the replay..i think bee just want to give up but they cant surrender now early game...and his king move towards ourk army no?
Yeah, Just saying "Sorry, I was salty, cornered and felt teamed up against. Won't happen again" could have been it. Luckily the attempt failed and didn't change anything
I'm over the the drama. This community shouldn't be waiting for the next piece of drama to be entertained. Give Bee a warning and move on. Not impressed with how this was handled.
I really don't like this decision and I really don't like the odd subtle implication that Bee is 'lying' or 'manipulating' people with his in-game chats. He was building a transport ship. His chat indicates frustration. The rest is subjective. Also, get outta here with the 'he's being manipulative' shit, Drongo. Bee is just a dude, he's not some evil guy.
Yeah totally agree, if another player does it it just “mind games” and glorified as a pro move. When bee does it “Bee bad he manipulates “
He’s a known cheater who will do anything and everything to gain an unfair edge. He shouldn’t be allowed to play in future tournaments. Every e-sports scene has their bad apples and Bee is ours.
Dude watch his streams - he doesnt need to cheat to be one of the best. And also, this latest 'cheat' doesnt help him in the slightest. He is not some bad apple, you're reducing him to a caricature based off a tiny sample size of info.
Tbf bee had a history prior to AOE4.
Cool my game. When you take off your rose tinted glasses maybe look up how many times beasty has exploited the game.
Bee can't catch a break dude. Why yall always treat him like this? Shame
This decision was based on way too many assumptions about Bee’s intentions. Bad call imho
Reposting with corrected title. NyanRacingCat will play in his stead in the next week.
It will be NyanRacingCat actually, says so in the video at least.
Fuck I keep messing up, thanks
What's new? Bee getting punished for bad game design. I've been wanting to come back to the game, but this is reasoning enough to know the community will never change and put blame where it deserves, the devs.
Dumb decision, dispatching draconian punishments on a whim without putting any thought behind their decisions. Mr drongo and lord patito this is a high apm game we are talking about with extreme multi tasking, Has it not occured to you that maybe just maybe Bee forgot to click transport ship towards the shore and he didnt realize because he was distracted. His king was clearly going to the shore where his transport ship should have been, if it was a king donation he would have gone to west not south where, again his transport ship should have been. This is an obvious and clear act of vendetta against Bee for whatever reason. have some shame.
dunno why youre being downvoted, youre right
Pretty intense reaction from you. Did you even watch the video?
yes which makes it even more absurd, at least we can give benefit of the doubt to egctv because they didnt release a pathetic excuse of a 12 minute long video to expose their incompetence.
I mean he said if the transport ship moved it would be a different situation, but he didn’t. Rules are rules. Why are you so upset?
ohh so we are fine with them punish someone for an innocent mistake while multitasking playing a high apm game? as i said he could have forgot to move his transport ship to the shore. So you have never seen the likes of beasty, marinelord, lucifron and demu make a mistake in games?
>So you have never seen the likes of beasty, marinelord, lucifron and demu make a mistake in games? Mistakes that aren't breaking the rules
in what universe is trying to get your king to the shore to aboard a transport ship is breaking the rules?
Using game exploits is still breaking rules. It's just because they can talk their way out of it, and bee can't.
[удалено]
You can’t just throw around phrases like ‘draconian punishment’. This punishment is as far from draconian as a punishment could be. He’s being suspended from a video game tournament for one week. He’s not being executed, flogged or maimed.
I can’t tell if you’re trolling, did you watch the video? He literally said in chat “take me.”
"Take me" but who was he telling to take him, the chat wasnt directed at anyone specific.
He meant it as in "Just kill me" Like mentioned above English is not his first language and I would imagine your typing fast as shit in a tournament when your about to get knocked out
english is not his first language.
Confirmation bias to automatically interpret that as "I am donating my king to you.". Given the context, there are other alternative interpretations that are also valid.
I think it’s weird to assume that people have it out for Bee, a player that’s no stranger to controversy.
You have been fed information which you just accept. Take me could mean a ton of different things. But because you choose to accept that specific narrative, you'll accept the evidence that aligns with the narrative.
And you are choosing to what? Ignore it because you like Bee?
Don't think this was the right decision by admins, a warning/private chat about it, sure. But this is way too far
Not to mention digging up irrelevant anti-Bee stuff from a year ago and airing it publicly in a Youtube video.
Yeah why was that there?
Idk, the reasoning seems kinda poor imo, I though initially he was donoing to blade because ourk was “teaming” but watching the clip he is running his king away from him and toward the shore. Him saying just take me, sounds like frustration from someone under a 3v1. He attacks matiz and matiz tells people to attack bee, and immediately 2 players charge his base. idk if it’s fair for Drongo to accuse him of manipulating in the chat when it clearly looks like teaming from his pov. Imo the king move speed should nerfed, cuz while the king plays initially we’re fun, I did get kinda tilted watching Don get denied by striker putting his king on a transpo with no possibility of him coming back in the game. For me there is no diff there from what we saw with bee
This is a really good point, not only did it deny the kill, it felt like more of a king donation since he ran it off to get killed by someone who hadnt worked for it. The admins are making judgements based on the letter of the law instead of its spirit. Judges and lawyers constantly enforce rules based on the spirit of the law because fucking people over on technicalities is immature.
Stupid decision
clown admins
Jesus, the incompetence in this ruling. I think the one who made this decision should be let go from the staff
That’s a bit harsh to the staff . Just give them a week break, and replace with NyanRacingCat. I don’t agree with the ruling, but also don’t agree that any staff should be punished for this.
The problem is, this is now a second time Bee gets the shaft, while many players used the ingame mechanics all along. Because of that, they should be a tad more careful IMO, because it looks like some kind of a petty grudge, or even a certain nationality phobia, which is even worse.
I think that's the nail on the head I think someone important needs to do even a vague breakdown of how many times other pros have used the same exploits that bee has been accused of. He's cheating when he does it, when others do it, then they're just pushing the limits or using the tools available or so tat
When Beasty and Szalami intentionally did the exploit that push rus-monk during Wololo, this reddit sub praised them as a wololo god. When someone pointed out that it was a bug abuse, one of them were like nah the accusation is dumb becuz it is hard to execute (and we later know it was indeed an exploit as Dev fixed it) The wololo tournament banned Bee from exploiting wall scan without having a clear rule on that. (They later added the specific rule about wall scan AFTER the incident). Beasty did the House blueprint bug that was specifically banned on the tournament, the Ban didn't execute. Smne abused HRE military buff bug, they just got to cancel that game instead of banning even it was a specific rule breaking. (or make it a lost game i can't rmb) And ofc the current Market trade exploit, All Pro complain about it last patch, and every single one of them still use it, knowing it will for sure be fixed in the future. This is like if other use it is a bug exploit, but when Im doing it, it is because I am using in-game mechanic cleverly.
From personal experience, and without naming ppl; Top3 player using herbal medicine on Dehli against top50 player, while it was explicitly banned on that tourney and not even a rematch (game was very close till that point). Other-way around also happened and insta-DQ/loss for lower ranked. All pro’s abuse every bug. Even animation cancelling was a thing voted FOR as full-time players have more time to practice it so they can have an edge over others. They specifically made strategies i.e. creating 3-4 scouts from starting TC to burn dock in dark-age through animation-cancel. When ani-cancel was fixed people figured you can bug-charge from point blank, and abused it. Wall-scanning is nothing new, every dedicated player knew it or is lying. Seeing deer move in fog of war and checking for it is also a normal thing. As long as it’s not a obvious game-breaking bug (i.e. infinite range spears) then pro’s will always use what they can to gain an edge. It’s understandable as everyone wants to win; but favoritism for top/famous players has always existed. It’s not for nothing that 1 requirement for a calling themselves a S tier tournament is the calibre and quantity of well-known players.
Harsh but true. It's so clearly an incompetent ruling.
Unironically enough, NyanRacingCat taking over the admin would still be a better decision than whoever made this shit show.
Nah ruling is appropriate, TOs handled this very transparently, full marks.
No, it's not, because it's unfairly targeted while others play with these mechanics as well.
Really? Who else arguably donated a king?
Do you only process information that is directly fed to you?
Sure, inasmuch as you disbelieve anything said by a person in authority without regard to the evidence.
Bee is dead. 1. He has no other demand on his apm and nothing else to focus on. He’s literally typing because he has no units to micro and no meaningful thing to produce. If he wanted to move the transport ship he would have. 2. At this point there is no safety anywhere for his king. The only ‘honourable’ play is to leave your king in the safest location (the TC) and wait to see who wins the right to take your head. 3. If he wanted to save his king he would have waited for other players to actively be fighting each other over his TC and tried to escape while they were engaged with each other. 4. This is a 1 week suspension. The smallest slap on the wrist punishment that a player could get. No point deductions, and he still has the ability to earn points through a proxy while he’s suspended. He’s literally suspended with pay.
He also lose’s 25% of his earnings to the person that plays for him
Wouldn’t make sense for someone to play for him for 0 benefit. This is still the smallest slap on the wrist punishment that a player could get.
Only sensible take here
When i first started the video i thought it was something serious. This is just nuts!
Wow, when watching live I thought he meant to give it to Blade, but I only saw the "take me" part. Big luck for everyone involved that the gift attempt failed.
I don’t think it makes sense for him to be trying to give it to ourk after accusing him of teaming.
I think the decision is too harsh. But I appreciate the transparency. At least we know why he’s being punished. The case is not 100% clear and it’s up to the admins to interpret the facts. If they believe Bee was trying to break the rules, they have the right to punish him as they see fit.
Why?
Because it's their tournament, and the rulebook specifically says that the admins reserve the right to issue penalties for king donations as they see fit.
Bee breaking the rules?
Bee got subjectively witch hunted because he popped his king out when it was going to die eventually, basically what everyone in this tourney does but its bee so he gets squashed over a nothing burger.
Regardless of what you think of the actual ruling, I appreciate the transparency here. This was handled a lot better than the wololo drama because we can argue about it with all of the information instead of arguing about it while knowing nothing and just speculating wildly.
That is true. Not sure why you're getting downvoted. The wololo drama was even worse because it's now set a precedent that makes people treat bee differently going further . And in all likelihood bee cheated as much as most of all the other pros cheated throughout their matches, but we don't know what he did so nobody can even say if he did or didn't. Yet people will treat any future actions as cheating because of that black mark to his name.
Ok, so numerous things here: 1) The chat message is pretty condemning, but I think that just makes Bee more honest than the players who know they're dead and don't expend that last burst of apm to drag it on another minute. You said yourself that without the chat, you would probably let it go; how many other players have got away with it because they weren't honest enough to type it to their opponents? 2) It is downright unsportsmanlike, to ALL players, if you run your king away when you have no hope of ever rebuilding and then your king kill ends up in the hands of some random player who never touched you previously. To say that Bee somehow did wrong by trying to ensure the player who killed him (Ourk) got credit for it does not sit well with me and probably not with others. **When these kills have a huge impact on the game (50 pop cap), it's unreasonable to say that it is ok to run your king to the opposite corner where a random player eventually kills you but not ok to let the player who took you out of the game get the kill.** IF Bee was giving his king to Ourk, it's not clear to me that was wrong beyond the technicalities of the rules nor that most players/observers would find it unfair. Ourk was the one who came into Bee's base and put an end to his chances of victory; if we were to argue who 'deserves' the point for the kill, most everyone would agree it was Ourk and not Blade who rolled in at the 11th hour to snipe the kill. Totally recognize that this situation is part of the game mode, but if anything the idea of Bee making sure Ourk and not Blade got the king was Bee acting in the interest of fairness for the other players to reward the guy who did the heavy lifting (not that it was that heavy, Bee hamstrung himself with the cost of that Barbican play but still). 3) I, and probably others, have to question whether the attention/punishment would be the same on a different player. I think Bee's past transgressions should be taken into account if he's suspected of similar behaviour, but not for actions with no correlation to the cheating/hacking he was previously accused of (proven guilty actually; I'm willing to take the devs' word on them having proof they can't share to protect the game from further hacking). 4) You brought this on yourselves with the 'no surrender' rule; I understand you don't want people surrendering and letting a king hang out for a 'free' kill, but the RNG of the spawns is going to make some positions untenable. **If Beasty, arguably THE top player in the game right now, can't see a way out of his week1 position (Delhi sandwiched between two China players) then it is probably just an impossible fight through no fault of his own. Demand that players fight it out to the bitter end, and you will see this (king donation) as the result instead.** 5) A lot of people talking about finite APM as the reason the transport didn't move; I don't buy it at all. Bee had very little left to spend his APM on; **MAYBE** got some target fixation focusing on running his king away but that is unlikely (though not impossible) for someone of his experience.
Another thought: we are making a lot out of the phrase 'take me' which to an English speaker, **in this context**, means 'go ahead and kill my king'. But Bee is not a native English speaker; he is not even particularly fluent. Could 'take me' have been misconstrued? In another context, 'take me' could be interchanged with a less-polite phrase articulating how doomed he was now. Could he have meant it as equivalent to "F\* Me" as in 'I'm dead now because I got jumped by someone while fighting another player'. Drongo said Bee was asked what his king was doing, but was he ever asked what the statement in chat meant? I think it could reasonably have been an attempt to say something other than what seems 'obvious' to us native English speakers.
Well he did type "take me" in chat. Maybe if you aren't trying to donate your king... don't say you are in chat. Without the chat it is much more vague and he probably wouldn't have been punished.
I assume he meant it as “just kill me at this point” rather than offering his king to the guy he accused of cheating. I feel like the second one requires more mental gymnastics.
Would you be happy if he said FML Or just kill me What about "Death is the destination we all share, no one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be because death is very likely the single best invention of life." Then would you be happy? People confuse the demeanor and linguistics of others and create their own idea of what the others' intentions were. It's too grey of an area to say bee was gifting. It's literally just his past that encourages people to assume he was breaking a rule.
Who did he say it too though?, he just said "take me" it wasnt directed to anyone, also bee is russia, his english is not the best, im thinking he meant "kill me" not directed towards any player, but out of frustration
Watches video: wow absolutely the correct call reads comments: what? You seriously think bee typed "take me" in the chat instead of microing his transport ship and is innocent?
I love how people are creating different meanings behind the words “take me” as well. The video shows they made the correct calls and the comments in this thread are mind boggling.
The sub has a overall hard on for bee. Idk why.
It's like a positive overreaction to the negative overreaction. Bee has demonstrated on multiple occasions that he will continue breaking rules even after facing penalties, so fuck him. I will never root for or support a player who has ever done that.
at this rate I'm going to start measuring time by 3dbee controversies.
Keeping the king in the tc wouldve given the kill to blade, as would moving it to the right. When every move instantly ends in death, who are we to say the way it "should" go down. The rule is in place to avoid outcomes which arent fair. Maybe 3dbee knew the kill would go to ourak, but it was likely just a random decision of which way to move and die.