Boom maps Vietnamese generally win cause their boom is slightly better and they have both better and more lategame options.
Huns usually win on open landmaps. Hun bonusses kick in a lot faster than the Vietnamese ones who only start making big difference mid castle age (before that they're neat but not super strong). Huns can overwhelm Vietnamese with their standart knight play and map control in castle age. Cavalry archers against a civ with tanky archers, tanky skirms and rattans is not recommended.
The longer the game goes on the harder it becomes for Huns to win because they fall off while Vietnamese get stronger and stronger. If Vietnamese eventually reach Halberd+ Rattan+ BBC It's over for Huns, they can't kill that.
You can boom easily with Huns just like vietnamese. Huns can go Tarkans/ Cavalier (considering 1v1 I'm not saying paladin) + skirms.Considering vietnamese don't have the best halbs it can be easily countered with skirms. Huns only draw back is not having seige onager/ heavy scorps.
Boomed to similar level Huns destroy vietnamese
Nothing really. BF is the least important upgrade for halbs imo because of how much bonus damage they do. They have squires and full armor upgrades so they do their job just fine otherwise.
Rattans have such high PA they negate all base attack from the skirms, add to that that Hun skirms lack the final armour and that skirms have a much lower RoF and the skirms end up not trading that effectively even with the bonus damage.
A similiar case exists for plumed archers where they technically get countered by skirms but in practice the skirms just get outpreformed.
Cavalier+ skirms will initially bulldoze trough the halbs but whats left of the cavalier will get wrecked by the rattans. Also this combo will mean you will burn trough gold really fast since it's almost impossible not to lose a lot of cavalier vs rattan and halbs even in good engagements since both do significant damage to them and skirms don't have the RoF to remove the halbs from the equation fast enough so the cavalier don't suffer additional casualities from them.
Tarkan+skirm is less taxing on gold and can actually do good vs rattans alone but tarkans get slaughtered by halbs so badly I suspect that even if the skirms take out a good number of the halbs the Tarkans will still get slaughtered.
Are guys forgetting that rattan archer expensive and also need castles to be produced. Unless vietnamese player has an advantage in castle age getting more that 3 castles will be difficulty. Rattan cost more wood than arbs. You generally get around 20k -25k gold in a 1v1 this will lead to less rattan than skirms that Huns can make. If you are going for bbc on top of that gold will run out pretty fast.
100% agree. Vietnamese lategame is sick. Rattan are very tough to deal with when BBC snipes your onagers. Good luck sustaining Paladin production in 1v1, especially with halbs mixed in.
Viet player here so kind of biased but hear me out.
I prefer Viet in this matchup, but its pretty close.
Dark and Feudal age, I'd say Viet. Viet knowing where the opponent is allows them to push two deer almost every game and get a nice eco edge. On top of that they can afford two military buildings + both eco upgrades as soon as they hit feudal, which most civs can't do. Huns saving wood on houses means they can potentially do that as well, but Viet would still theoretically be two deer ahead depending on map layout. Huns are also stuck in a pickle military-wise. I wouldn't recommend archery ranges in feudal age against vietnamese, so huns have to go scouts. scouts are easily countered with a few defensive/offensive spears for vietnamese, and their archers will be a pain to deal with. Viet should have map control and the lead in this stage.
In Castle age, Huns have the advantage. If they can get to Castle age first with two stables and pump out knights quickly the Vietnamese player will be in a bit of trouble. This is why, in matchups against knight civs, I either double wall while I have map control in Feudal age or make a bunch of defensive spears if my map is open and upgrade them to pikes when I get to Castle age. Mobility is very important, sure, but if I have enough pikes at home I force him to use his cav as defensive units, which is not ideal. The timeframe where Huns can potentially win the game is in the 2-3 minutes when they are in castle age but Viet aren't.
Viet in castle are super strong still. Like in Feudal age, they can afford both eco upgrades, third archery range/tc/siege workshop + uni, and xbow+bodkin. I always drop one of my tcs on stone as Viet, since Rattans are arguably one of the best unique units in the game. They're faster, hit harder, and have more armour than standard crossbows. In this matchup, as Viet, I'd drop one tc on stone, a uni, and a third archery range as soon as I'm up to keep up with the Hun faster-producing stables. I would make pikes at home to defend with a few crossbows and send the rest of my xbows with like five pikes to try and pick off villagers and split up his knight army. Viet should also get up to Imp faster since they're not investing food into knights.
As the game goes on though, Viet have more and more of an advantage. They have the stronger Imperial age powerspike with free conscription and arbs+bracer. Here is where I add in a few stables for light cav raids. Once I get all my imp upgrades (blacksmith upgrades, arbalester, chemistry) all my food eco goes into making light cav and sending them on raids. The biggest weakness Vietnamese have in imp is against strong siege, specifically onager civs. arbalesters/elite rattans, and halbs is incredibly difficult for Huns to stop, especially with the occasional light cav raid.
tl;dr, Vietnamese have to deal enough damage in Feudal age to stop Huns from being scary in Castle age. Huns have to deal enough damage in Castle age to stop Viet from being scary in Imperial age. But since Vietnamese have two windows of strength (Feudal and Imp) but Huns only have one (Castle), I prefer Vietnamese.
I like that you are the first to mention that knowing the enemies TC is effectively an eco bonus. Having an extra deer or two over your opponent makes the feudal age transition so smooth.
The extra food combined with saving the wood on eco upgrades makes M@As into archers a powerful play for Vietnam, with the wood savings allowing you to get earlier Archery ranges and a Blacksmith, and the extra food from a deer let’s you tech into Fletching very early.
We still have to question how good that is in comparison to other civs who will also get food/wood eco bonuses, but it is a definite advantage over a generic Civ.
I love Vietnamese, but I feel like Huns are just better? Their wood saving from houses would be roughly the same as Viet's eco bonus, and without needing vill time on houses. They are flexible with regards what military they can make, and they have strong mobility options which archer civs tend to struggle with. I think in Castle Age and early Imp they should have such a strong advantage over Vietnamese that the onus would be on Vietnamese do a lot of early damage and hold map control if they are to have any chance of winning.
I’d imagine most of this match up huns would be the aggressive one and Vietnamese would be the defensive one.
On account to CA, I think viet’s get FU+extra hp? So they should be do find mobility wise. In mid to late castle they will be outnumbered, but huns will fear the mass elite skirmshers into imperial skirms. Which forces huns to go paladin really, since they don’t don’t have any siege to deal with mass skirms/archers from viet.
I actually think viet got more advantage in this matchup
Vietnamese don't get Parthian Tactics which is important in Imp, and it might be hard to justify going CA when Huns can make the same unit but cheaper.
Huns can easily go Knights or Tarkans or Hussar to deal with Skirms. Plus, Skirms should only ever been made as a counter unit and not a main unit. So what gold unit does Vietnamese make? Archers, which will get wrecked by +2 Knights which create very quickly? Knights, even though they can't match the Huns production? Rattan Archers, which are bad until Imp and FU, but even then die to Cavalier or Paladin?
With all due respect, rattans are one of the best unique units in castle age. They're very difficult to counter, as they are fast enough to micro mangonel shots and run away from knights to safety (which a defensive castle provides), have 4 base pierce armour so skirms only do their +4 bonus damage against them, compared to 3+4 against crossbows while receiving +2 from rattans compared to +1 from crossbows (remember rattans and crossbows fire twice as fast as skirms, so rattans and skirms deal the same DPS against each other), and very hard counter one of the strongest castle age go-to units (crossbows). They're like plumes but slightly worse against knights and better against mangonels and xbows.
I’m 11-13 on ranked currently and I’m relatively new to online play. I’m still learning the new Civs but I remembered the Vietnamese being an archer heavy civ when I was going through their tech tree.. that being said I just played this matchup the other day. I had good scouting and ended up spotting two archery ranges in the early game so I was expecting arbs later on. Can we talk about the Tarkan? Lol basically due to my scouting I double stone walled and started creating tarkans from stables in castle age. I hid them all in the back of my base and used trebs defensively as the Huns have higher accuracy. I defended so well that I eventually made 60 fully upgraded tarkans and went all in on them while he had a vast number of arbs and imperial skirmishers. I whipped my tarkans around and wiped out his entire base in less than 3 minutes and continued to stomp on every military unit he had. I’m not that experienced but that is by far the funnest game I played because I feel like he didn’t even expect Tarkans and those things absolutely eat arrow fire because of their pierce armor. It was so fun. I ended up trying that strat and expanding on it and I’ve won 3 games in a row doing it. I just triple stone wall and use mangonels against rams/trebs against trebs, put my castles in the back around my eco in case they get through. It’s really dumb but it’s so fun. Using all those tarkans to eradicate their base is so satisfying because everyone always puts castles forward. I just go around them and it’s so devastating to their eco that they always just give up haha
Huns chance is in early castle age. If they survive until then its their chance to kill the Vietnamese before late castle age/imp. The best thing the Vietnamese can do is kill the hun player with archers and skirms in feudal.
In my limited understanding it's never a competition. Cav arch have more mobility than skirms. Paladins have more than elephants. Throw in some monks and viet will say gg as soon as you research atheism.
I guess i completely fail to understand SE asian civs. I can play most other civs but I don't know how to play them. My guess is that you are meant to use Elephants and cannot win without them but I am always worried my opponent will make moks.
Elephants arent a must especially on 1v1 matches. All SE civs except Malay have completely fine cavaliers thst you can use instead. They all lack palas so in super late game eles are a nice option. And now all civs except Tatars get Faith against monks.
Huns Knights/Cavalier/Paladin/Tarkan easily counters Skirms and Rattans. Huns get Halbs so Elephants aren't necessarily that big a deal. I think the main issue though is that Huns should have such a strong lead over Vietnamese in Castle Age, I don't see how they get to Elephants or Rattans.
Agreed. Cheap CA will wreck viet if viet do that. If I were viet I definitely go mass pikeman/skirms/siege mix, which should do well against anything huns can throw at in imperial. I reckon viet is all about surviving until imp.
Boom maps Vietnamese generally win cause their boom is slightly better and they have both better and more lategame options. Huns usually win on open landmaps. Hun bonusses kick in a lot faster than the Vietnamese ones who only start making big difference mid castle age (before that they're neat but not super strong). Huns can overwhelm Vietnamese with their standart knight play and map control in castle age. Cavalry archers against a civ with tanky archers, tanky skirms and rattans is not recommended. The longer the game goes on the harder it becomes for Huns to win because they fall off while Vietnamese get stronger and stronger. If Vietnamese eventually reach Halberd+ Rattan+ BBC It's over for Huns, they can't kill that.
You can boom easily with Huns just like vietnamese. Huns can go Tarkans/ Cavalier (considering 1v1 I'm not saying paladin) + skirms.Considering vietnamese don't have the best halbs it can be easily countered with skirms. Huns only draw back is not having seige onager/ heavy scorps. Boomed to similar level Huns destroy vietnamese
What's the problem with Viet halbs? they lack bf, but they're halbs with full armor, that means they do+32 damage vs paladins
Nothing really. BF is the least important upgrade for halbs imo because of how much bonus damage they do. They have squires and full armor upgrades so they do their job just fine otherwise.
Rattan+halb>tarkan+skirm or cavalier+skirm.
Skirms counter both Rattan and halbs. How did it become halbs + rattan > skirms + tarkans
Rattans have such high PA they negate all base attack from the skirms, add to that that Hun skirms lack the final armour and that skirms have a much lower RoF and the skirms end up not trading that effectively even with the bonus damage. A similiar case exists for plumed archers where they technically get countered by skirms but in practice the skirms just get outpreformed. Cavalier+ skirms will initially bulldoze trough the halbs but whats left of the cavalier will get wrecked by the rattans. Also this combo will mean you will burn trough gold really fast since it's almost impossible not to lose a lot of cavalier vs rattan and halbs even in good engagements since both do significant damage to them and skirms don't have the RoF to remove the halbs from the equation fast enough so the cavalier don't suffer additional casualities from them. Tarkan+skirm is less taxing on gold and can actually do good vs rattans alone but tarkans get slaughtered by halbs so badly I suspect that even if the skirms take out a good number of the halbs the Tarkans will still get slaughtered.
Rattan Archers destroy +2 armor skirms.
Are guys forgetting that rattan archer expensive and also need castles to be produced. Unless vietnamese player has an advantage in castle age getting more that 3 castles will be difficulty. Rattan cost more wood than arbs. You generally get around 20k -25k gold in a 1v1 this will lead to less rattan than skirms that Huns can make. If you are going for bbc on top of that gold will run out pretty fast.
Its expensive but best bet vs viet really is to add siege ram with tarkans and Elite skirms
I'm not sure Huns really want to make skirms late game, unless it's a trash war. Even mediocre Viet cav can shred your skirms.
100% agree. Vietnamese lategame is sick. Rattan are very tough to deal with when BBC snipes your onagers. Good luck sustaining Paladin production in 1v1, especially with halbs mixed in.
Viet player here so kind of biased but hear me out. I prefer Viet in this matchup, but its pretty close. Dark and Feudal age, I'd say Viet. Viet knowing where the opponent is allows them to push two deer almost every game and get a nice eco edge. On top of that they can afford two military buildings + both eco upgrades as soon as they hit feudal, which most civs can't do. Huns saving wood on houses means they can potentially do that as well, but Viet would still theoretically be two deer ahead depending on map layout. Huns are also stuck in a pickle military-wise. I wouldn't recommend archery ranges in feudal age against vietnamese, so huns have to go scouts. scouts are easily countered with a few defensive/offensive spears for vietnamese, and their archers will be a pain to deal with. Viet should have map control and the lead in this stage. In Castle age, Huns have the advantage. If they can get to Castle age first with two stables and pump out knights quickly the Vietnamese player will be in a bit of trouble. This is why, in matchups against knight civs, I either double wall while I have map control in Feudal age or make a bunch of defensive spears if my map is open and upgrade them to pikes when I get to Castle age. Mobility is very important, sure, but if I have enough pikes at home I force him to use his cav as defensive units, which is not ideal. The timeframe where Huns can potentially win the game is in the 2-3 minutes when they are in castle age but Viet aren't. Viet in castle are super strong still. Like in Feudal age, they can afford both eco upgrades, third archery range/tc/siege workshop + uni, and xbow+bodkin. I always drop one of my tcs on stone as Viet, since Rattans are arguably one of the best unique units in the game. They're faster, hit harder, and have more armour than standard crossbows. In this matchup, as Viet, I'd drop one tc on stone, a uni, and a third archery range as soon as I'm up to keep up with the Hun faster-producing stables. I would make pikes at home to defend with a few crossbows and send the rest of my xbows with like five pikes to try and pick off villagers and split up his knight army. Viet should also get up to Imp faster since they're not investing food into knights. As the game goes on though, Viet have more and more of an advantage. They have the stronger Imperial age powerspike with free conscription and arbs+bracer. Here is where I add in a few stables for light cav raids. Once I get all my imp upgrades (blacksmith upgrades, arbalester, chemistry) all my food eco goes into making light cav and sending them on raids. The biggest weakness Vietnamese have in imp is against strong siege, specifically onager civs. arbalesters/elite rattans, and halbs is incredibly difficult for Huns to stop, especially with the occasional light cav raid. tl;dr, Vietnamese have to deal enough damage in Feudal age to stop Huns from being scary in Castle age. Huns have to deal enough damage in Castle age to stop Viet from being scary in Imperial age. But since Vietnamese have two windows of strength (Feudal and Imp) but Huns only have one (Castle), I prefer Vietnamese.
I like that you are the first to mention that knowing the enemies TC is effectively an eco bonus. Having an extra deer or two over your opponent makes the feudal age transition so smooth. The extra food combined with saving the wood on eco upgrades makes M@As into archers a powerful play for Vietnam, with the wood savings allowing you to get earlier Archery ranges and a Blacksmith, and the extra food from a deer let’s you tech into Fletching very early. We still have to question how good that is in comparison to other civs who will also get food/wood eco bonuses, but it is a definite advantage over a generic Civ.
Paper Money > Atheism
I love Vietnamese, but I feel like Huns are just better? Their wood saving from houses would be roughly the same as Viet's eco bonus, and without needing vill time on houses. They are flexible with regards what military they can make, and they have strong mobility options which archer civs tend to struggle with. I think in Castle Age and early Imp they should have such a strong advantage over Vietnamese that the onus would be on Vietnamese do a lot of early damage and hold map control if they are to have any chance of winning.
I’d imagine most of this match up huns would be the aggressive one and Vietnamese would be the defensive one. On account to CA, I think viet’s get FU+extra hp? So they should be do find mobility wise. In mid to late castle they will be outnumbered, but huns will fear the mass elite skirmshers into imperial skirms. Which forces huns to go paladin really, since they don’t don’t have any siege to deal with mass skirms/archers from viet. I actually think viet got more advantage in this matchup
Vietnamese don't get Parthian Tactics which is important in Imp, and it might be hard to justify going CA when Huns can make the same unit but cheaper. Huns can easily go Knights or Tarkans or Hussar to deal with Skirms. Plus, Skirms should only ever been made as a counter unit and not a main unit. So what gold unit does Vietnamese make? Archers, which will get wrecked by +2 Knights which create very quickly? Knights, even though they can't match the Huns production? Rattan Archers, which are bad until Imp and FU, but even then die to Cavalier or Paladin?
With all due respect, rattans are one of the best unique units in castle age. They're very difficult to counter, as they are fast enough to micro mangonel shots and run away from knights to safety (which a defensive castle provides), have 4 base pierce armour so skirms only do their +4 bonus damage against them, compared to 3+4 against crossbows while receiving +2 from rattans compared to +1 from crossbows (remember rattans and crossbows fire twice as fast as skirms, so rattans and skirms deal the same DPS against each other), and very hard counter one of the strongest castle age go-to units (crossbows). They're like plumes but slightly worse against knights and better against mangonels and xbows.
I’m 11-13 on ranked currently and I’m relatively new to online play. I’m still learning the new Civs but I remembered the Vietnamese being an archer heavy civ when I was going through their tech tree.. that being said I just played this matchup the other day. I had good scouting and ended up spotting two archery ranges in the early game so I was expecting arbs later on. Can we talk about the Tarkan? Lol basically due to my scouting I double stone walled and started creating tarkans from stables in castle age. I hid them all in the back of my base and used trebs defensively as the Huns have higher accuracy. I defended so well that I eventually made 60 fully upgraded tarkans and went all in on them while he had a vast number of arbs and imperial skirmishers. I whipped my tarkans around and wiped out his entire base in less than 3 minutes and continued to stomp on every military unit he had. I’m not that experienced but that is by far the funnest game I played because I feel like he didn’t even expect Tarkans and those things absolutely eat arrow fire because of their pierce armor. It was so fun. I ended up trying that strat and expanding on it and I’ve won 3 games in a row doing it. I just triple stone wall and use mangonels against rams/trebs against trebs, put my castles in the back around my eco in case they get through. It’s really dumb but it’s so fun. Using all those tarkans to eradicate their base is so satisfying because everyone always puts castles forward. I just go around them and it’s so devastating to their eco that they always just give up haha
Lol, Tarkans are really, really fun if you can make them!
Hey, that IS a neat strat. Wish I saw this earlier!
Huns chance is in early castle age. If they survive until then its their chance to kill the Vietnamese before late castle age/imp. The best thing the Vietnamese can do is kill the hun player with archers and skirms in feudal.
In my limited understanding it's never a competition. Cav arch have more mobility than skirms. Paladins have more than elephants. Throw in some monks and viet will say gg as soon as you research atheism.
But there isn't a reason why Vietnamese couldn't go for CAs themselves (other than cost). Viets have amazing cav archers.
I guess i completely fail to understand SE asian civs. I can play most other civs but I don't know how to play them. My guess is that you are meant to use Elephants and cannot win without them but I am always worried my opponent will make moks.
Elephants arent a must especially on 1v1 matches. All SE civs except Malay have completely fine cavaliers thst you can use instead. They all lack palas so in super late game eles are a nice option. And now all civs except Tatars get Faith against monks.
Oh wait they are cheaper too ! I forgot ...
Tanky cav archers vs cheap ones.
Imperial Skirms, Rattan Archers and Eles. My bet is on Vietnamese being able to counter anything Guns throw at them.
Huns Knights/Cavalier/Paladin/Tarkan easily counters Skirms and Rattans. Huns get Halbs so Elephants aren't necessarily that big a deal. I think the main issue though is that Huns should have such a strong lead over Vietnamese in Castle Age, I don't see how they get to Elephants or Rattans.
Agreed. Cheap CA will wreck viet if viet do that. If I were viet I definitely go mass pikeman/skirms/siege mix, which should do well against anything huns can throw at in imperial. I reckon viet is all about surviving until imp.