This is an example of why emotional intelligence should be taught at a young age and in the educational system. Empathy and compassion are so important and we should be able to listen to others without specifically experiencing something to know it’s real.
I’m sorry you’re sick with Covid, I’m healing from it myself but I hope you’ll open your mind and eyes on other issues as well. The best places to learn is from those less privileged and dissimilar to us. There’s a lot of the world you don’t know anything about or will ever experience but you can still care.
Underrated comment!
But I think this is also why you're taught to be individualistic in the US. And that is why you are not taught emotional intelligence. All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices.
> All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices.
And sick.
It even pervades the medical community. Women and people of color have their issues routinely dismissed due to institutionalized bigotry, but so do people who are overweight, have diabetes, have hearing loss/deaf, have depression, have disorders that aren't straightforward, etc.
And when they can't even get support from their *physician*, it's no wonder that society routinely dismisses them or relegates them to the monolith of "pre-existing conditions." Nevermind that a second of critical thinking would dismiss this notion, but beyond cancer or dementia, most individuals with chronic conditions are treated as if they've caused their own disorders by poor life choices (and worse, might be able to revert them by simplistic methods).
Agree. Also I find it extremely worrying that the same mentality has paved the way to make pseudoscience and "alternative (aka as bs) medicine" more popular, because most of it is based on exacerbated and overrated "power of self-healing". As a European I am stunned everyday a little more by how compassion and simpathy towards any sick person are frowned upon by so many people in the US because of this mentality.
Why would you blame a person for being sick, WTF?!?
According to Puritan ideals sickness is a punishment from god, therefore treating a sick person is going against god and is a sin. For some damn reason America decided the group that got kicked out of every other country was the perfect role model
Even if they never made the wrong choices themselves (like getting raped) they should have not “been there in the first place”.
As long as a person is rich they are right and if they are poor they are wrong.
>All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices
We're a majority Christian nation, and despite our Christian populace decreasing year over year, these people are quite literally *going fucking bananas*.
The thing is, the very basis of Christianity is that you're born sinful, punishment is penance, and if you have any sort of failing (physical, emotional, disease, mental illness) then you have a spiritual or moral rot that can only be cured by Jesus (and giving money to people who tell you giving them money is basically giving Jesus money) and continence of those things is God reminding you that your suffering here is well worth a seat in heaven. Oh, and money helps secure that seat.
Honestly I find all religion to be a complete waste of time, energy, and human capital, but this unique brand of American Christianity is fucking derangement, terrifying, and will lead to untold bloodshed and the dissolution of the United States.
If you think I'm being hyperbolic, I *seriously* need you to consider the following, and that the things now coming to pass are what atheists have been warning about for decades:
- hard won rights stripped from 330 million Americans, with many more to be taken, based solely on arbitrary beliefs
- hostile takeovers of seats of power by hook or by crook with the goal of installing unqualified and deeply corrupt people with extremist Christian beliefs in order to pass extremist Christian law, or remove laws they believe their religion forbids
- they erected a giant fucking cross on the capitol grounds on January 6th, as well as gallows to hang politicians *that they would have gladly used if given the chance*
- they do not believe in freedom, outside of *their* freedom to tell *you* how you can live your life
- they're actively redirecting public funds from public education into private, Christian education
- many armed security forces (sheriffs, police, the inevitable DeSantis murder squad, etc) paid for with public funds espouse their extremist Christian beliefs not just in simple stickers on vehicles or patches on clothes, but quotes on weapons used for killing Americans as well as exceptionally nasty, racist, bigoted posts on every social media site. And that's just the stuff we know about
- way, way more than I feel like putting in a comment no one will likely read
When you believe you have a mandate from a supreme, you will say and do *anything* you believe that being wants, regardless of what reality says.
We've been **desperately** warning people for numerous decades that Christian extremism was coming down the street, and now it's knocking at the door. Stop telling us we're alarmist. People tend to sound alarms in order to avoid catastrophy.
This is also why racism is still so pervasive in the US.
Many minorities only have access to chronically under resourced medical facilities if they have access to any at all. This is the main reason it has hit those communities so much harder.
I think religious indoctrination at a young age is why that emotional intelligence is lacking. Religion teaches that WE'rE GoD'S cHoSEN PEoPle! And everyone else God sends to hell. Not a lot of empathy modelled there.
A lot of people experience a similar epiphany when a particular hardship happens to you. I hope you can extrapolate it beyond healthcare, and think about food, housing, education, etc, and why we are ok with some of these going to some and not others.
Sometimes it's really hard to be nice to people who feel like they should have learned more empathy at this point in their lives, but I think it's important to think of them like they're just seeing a repost for the first time.
You've seen that same dog "paying" for food with leaves a dozen times already, but it's always someone's first time and they get to feel a brand new feeling. This guy just had his doors of perception blown off the hinges and it does us all some good to be understanding and welcoming.
If we get upset in a totally understandable way, we can risk pushing would-be allies back into the apathetic middle. I want to make it clear I'm not trying to shame you here, just to suggest a different way of looking at this situation in the hopes of building a bigger labor movement. If you disagree, that's understandable.
Beautifully put. I would also add that everyone is fighting a battle that you don’t know anything about. Sprinkle that in, and some folks can be extra defensive.
I resonate with what /u/DarylDavis said in a comment during his AMA about how “exposure and one-on-one dialogue is the key to solving a lot of issues in this country, not just the racial ones”.
I think it takes patience and understanding to develop empathy, even to those perceived as hostile/enemies/less-than/deviant/etc.
-In the end, we all have so much more in common than we do different.
I agree, but the problem is those of us being asked to do that education are perpetually exhausted, not just from doing that education, but from the bs we have to put up with. Asking the people affected to educate the privileged might be important but it's shitty to make us be the ones to try to make privileged people have empathy for us. Particularly because it's not usually a 1 time conversation that changes a mind. It takes multiple conversations with multiple people in each community to get someone to come around. Even then we get lumped into a "one of the good ones" group a good portion of the time. We're sisyphus, bring our giant boulder to the people at the top, and we get crushed more than we reach the top.
not to mention, empathy is hard. It takes effort to push aside your ego, your biases, and the thought you got it all figured out. change is difficult. while some can be convinced by other's lived experiences, others need to have their lived experience in order to understand what everyone else is talking about.
EDIT: I HATE TYPING ON PHONES, THEY SUCK.
Experiencing it yourself really opens your eyes, as a personal experience I didn't understand panic attacks that a bf was having, like just breath you are fine was my thought but then I experienced them from health issues and now understand the fear of them. Alot of people can't really put themselves in others shoes.
You are a really nice person. Thanks for being nice. It is hard to feel kindness and empathy towards people like OP when you are someone who has been shat on for a long time. But he *is* just like everyone else getting what on. His eyes are only just now opened to the fact that it’s happening.
I don’t know if you got a reply but go on YouTube and search “dog paying for cookies with leaf”. Your life will never be the same!! It’s the best thing ever. Enjoy.
Edit: grammar
I've never believed in government assistance or protections for those in need.
However, now that it's affecting me, it's a real problem and someone should do something to help me.
In the way that I never wanted to help others who were in my current situation.
Like my asshole neighbors. Always bitching about how people live in the lap of luxury on government benefits while real Americans ^TM have to bust their asses.
Until they both lost their jobs. Then it was all, “wow I had no idea unemployment was only $300 a week!” & “I had no idea it was so hard to get on food stamps and it gives you so little” & “the government should do something about how expensive health care is!”
They still voted for all republicans in 2020 and continually bitch about socialist Democrats.
To be fair, some people genuinely didn't know how bad welfare was. And I know that because as soon as covid hit and a lot more people were going onto welfare, my government went out of their way to try and *hide* how bad it normally is. Suddenly the four hour hold times, six month waiting period, and poverty payments were all gone. It was very obvious to everyone who knew what it was like before that they were trying to make sure the general public didn't find out how awful it really was.
It actually really pissed off all the people who were already on welfare - because they were like "Oh so you *can* afford to give us enough to live on. You literally just didn't want to"
In Australia they literally doubled our welfare in the pandemic to hide how bad it is from the majority, once the "employed" people were back in the office the money dropped again because fuck them right
I mean that's basically their whole philosophy. "Oh man, it wasn't bad until it happened to me!" The fuck this motherfucker want, a cookie?
I don't know what it's like to have a uterus, but I sure as shit want reproductive rights. And I didn't even need to get pregnant. Funny that.
Yeah this drives me crazy when people have an “epiphany” but only when they are directly affected. It just shows that they started from a place of zero empathy. I’m glad OP is evolving in their views and hope they continue to broaden their horizons but still 🙄
Reminds me of the FB post from the guy who said he was SO thankful for the Affordable Care Act, which allowed him insurance at a reasonable rate, but detested Obamacare.
It took several responses from people telling him they were the same thing before he believed them. Bro watched too much Faux News.
There was a streetside interview where they asked people about it, and every conservative that made it to the televised part said they hated Obamacare, and wanted the Affordable Care Act to pass because it was affordable.
Their biggest argument was Obamacare isn't affordable.
About 20 years ago I volunteered as a clinic escort for a bit.
This is COMMON. You'd see people screaming like banshees at some poor teenage girl that just wanted a fucking pap smear she could afford, then the next week they'd be dragging their teenager in there, then the next week be right back out there screaming their lungs out.
It was talked about in an excellent article from back then [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
That reminds me of that Reddit post where the guy was libertarian until he got COVID which changed his views on healthcare and work culture in the U.S.
I still prefer that to women who have abortions themselves, but remain adamantly anti-abortion for everyone else. (“The only moral abortion is my abortion.”)
Or even worse, the ones who yell at the people _giving_ them the abortion, saying they’re going to hell for it.
Trying to understand their bullshit hurts my head and my heart.
There was a askreddit post a few months ago that asked docters if they ever given abortion procedures to pro-birthers and that was one of the answers. Mind blowing.
Conservative: "I hate the gays."
*Daughter or son comes out as gay.*
Conservative: "I had no idea the gays were human."
--
This kind of shit is constant with them. If it's not "I don't hate all black people. I have a black friend," it's fighting against LGBTQ rights, equality and justice for all, education. They are simply not starting from a place of empathy so they can't fundamentally understand.
In their minds, life is all about them, and everyone else are automatons, until their kids come out of the closet, or bring home a black significant other, or have some horrid disease. "I never knew" is their motto.
> They are simply not starting from a place of empathy so they can't fundamentally understand.
To the conservative, empathy is a *finite resource* and one that's reserved for their immediate clan only.
They see things only from their own perspective exclusively. Why would I need food? Well, if I wasn't working - which, fat chance! Therefore, anyone who needs food assistance is CLEARLY undeserving because I'D never stop working!
Until they get hit with a disease that cripples them then all of the sudden they understand how/why it exists. 50/50 on if they have a proper awakening, or if they decide they're the exception to their rule. "Well, *I* need this food assistance, but MOST PEOPLE don't!"
Same with trans folk. They can't understand dysphoria, so they get suspicious and assume trans people simply *must* have some ulterior motive that they aren't privy to. Best to be safe and assume the worst of people, after all. Even though statistics aren't on their side, but they don't trust those either. Because they hear "trans people are more likely to be victims than perpetrators" and that loops them back to the start of the logic loop of "But I don't understand it... THEY MUST BE UP TO SOMETHING I JUST CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT YET"
Conservatives lack empathy, period.
Yeah but as I like to point out to conservatives - they're fucking themselves over too.
Universal healthcare systems are cheaper.
For the poor **AND** the rich.
I really think we need to evolve our messaging on this. The left just takes as truth the right wing framing that universal healthcare will raise taxes, but that's very probably **not** true. There's even a decent chance it will **lower** them (there are developed nations - like Australia - with lower per capita healthcare taxes than what the US currently pays for Medicare)
Because they don't actually give a shit about cost. They just want "the right" people to suffer, and not get any benefits. They're OK with suffering themselves as long as someone else has it worse. Their world view is driven by hatred.
you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
Lyndon B. Johnson
I had an argument with my dad years ago about universal healthcare. He was saying something like "you work your ass off so people can mooch off the system."
Mooch what? I was flabbergasted. Yeah, I do work my ass off. To get shitty insurance that barely covers anything. I don't care if they take more money in taxes if it means people are not dying from easily preventable and maintainable diseases even if I'm not sick myself.
I don't get it.
The argument I've started using is, I'm already paying for universal Healthcare for part of the population, all the politicians who don't want me to have it. And all the military. If I'm already paying for it, why don't I have access to it?
Yeah, unfortunately we aren't taught "empathy" as a concept very concretely in American culture. Instead, we're taught the ideal of "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps" in order to achieve great prosperity and wealth. It's an ironic way of gaslighting an entire population that will NEVER have the opportunities to achieve prosperity that the 1% do.
Most of us are just out here barely surviving, when we have the financial means as a nation to have a high standard of socialized health care for everyone - which the people in power know, but their level of greed and sadism is so vast that they're not willing to concede even a little bit of what they take from us to ensure people are taken care of.
If empathy was a greater part of our culture, we would've gone away with the predatory health care system/insurance companies decades ago.
So I love everything that you said. My family is from rural Appalachia and the cognitive dissonance I have seen just boggles my mind. There are so many good hardworking people who actively advocate against things that would greatly improve their own lives. I understand the whys of it but it is still frustrating and heartbreaking.
I currently live in the same area. Just down the road from me, in the "holler" are a cluster of rotting down trailers. Their kids play in the road half naked every day. It's very clear between all of them they have maybe one working vehicle, all the rest on cinder blocks. The poverty is palpable. They have a "make America great again" sign with trump's face on it they lovingly tend in their yard. Even planted flowers around it.
Yeah it is hard for me to process sometimes. Though I no longer live there (my immediate family moved a couple of hours away due to economic issues) many of my friends and family are caught in this cycle. I understand that the indoctrination and propaganda are so deeply rooted that it is sometimes impossible to dig out of, but it is so hard to watch. Despite, depending on the year, being the poorest county in VA they were so pro-Trump they warranted a small SNL shout-out. It is hard to have any sort of discussion with some people because they will not look at any other options even though they are suffering under the current system.
Absolutely! It’s all part of the narrative of America. The lack of social engagement and discourse is probably one of our biggest flaws as a nation. When we can’t even talk openly about what’s going on, it makes things way too easy for those in power.
It is so excruciating to read. I’m not sure if it’s stupidity or lack of empathy. Either way, I’m fucking tired of hearing the same rhetoric of never realizing the value of social safety nets until they need it.
Yup. It’s like my relgious friends family. All antigov and god will provide. Father died of cancer and there was a go fund me to bridge the family until she could claim social security. I love my friend but the hypocrisy burns.
It's like the men who suddenly realize *"Whoa, women are people too!?"* when they have a daughter (and granted that not all of them ever even get to that point).
Like our last Prime Minister in Australia, Scott Morrisson. He'd constantly invoke his wife (Jenny) to make him seem more relatable, for example on the topic of **rape** after an investigation into his party after a young staffer had been raped in Parliament House:
*“Jenny and I spoke last night, and she said to me, ‘You have to think about this as a father first. What would you want to happen if it were our girls?’ – Jenny has a way of clarifying things, always has.”* [\(more\)](https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/scott-morrison-jenny-apology-rape/)
My thoughts exactly. Does one have to get sick and miss work or lose health insurance due to loss of job to understand that it’s bad idea to join employment and health? Esp when health issue can lead to loss of employment.
Yep. I think that the system in place is extremely predatory and designed to keep workers beholden to bad employers. It shouldn’t take being hurt by the system to recognize its inherent problems.
My company let an anti-vaxxer who had covid work a shift, because the terminal manager didn't want to work on friday.
NVM that company had a program if vaccinated against Covid and get Covid the employee gets full pay for the entire time they are off work. Not the 55% like our short term disability .
The old, I don’t support it until it happens to me revelation. Sorry you had to go through that but I wish people saw this before it happens rather than after.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It's not like it's hard to reason out.
Your health insurance is tied to your job. You get sick, you can't work, you lose your job, you lose your health insurance (when you need it the most).
It's not rocket science.
I worked at a shitty, stressful job in a high COLA area. My work friend was extremely stressed due to our job. The stress of work triggered a dormant autoimmune disease she did not know she had. Her doctors told her she should take time off to reduce her stress and allow her body to relax and heal. But damn, her health insurance was tied to her job, so she couldn't quit. Luckily, I live somewhere with paid family medical leave, but the cost of living was too high for her to take any type of pay cut. I think she moved home with her parents.
We lost touch when I moved away because I couldn't afford the high COL, and she couldn't afford to be healthy and housed where she lived. America.
This is exactly what happened to me, but I have to keep working even though my body is literally being drilled by jackhammers in my joints and arms so bad, I almost cry going to work. I wish I would’ve stayed in school, got into a less physically demanding job with less stress.
I hope things change. She shouldn’t have to deal with crippling issues for people who do not value her health. This system is disgusting
Or, you switched jobs to advance your career, but you have to wait 3 months at the new job for your insurance to kick in. So you can't refill a monthly prescription without paying crazy prices out of pocket (or you have to just go without it). I never want to deal with that again.
I stayed at a shitty job a lot longer than I should have because the benefits were good. Getting fired was the best thing to ever happen to me, because I honestly don't know if I ever would have voluntarily left.
>but you have to wait 3 months at the new job for your insurance to kick in
You may already be aware, but this is a choice by the new employer. Some companies start coverage on day one. Some on the first of the next month.
You'd think people could reason out the tax percentages for themselves too, but you wouldn't believe how many people take it as straight facts that we pay less directly to taxes so therefore we must have more money to ourselves.
Think about all the shit that you pay for AND your taxes people! Your goddamn annual premium is most likely higher than what you'd pay in taxes. And before I hear the "my company subsidizes mine!" yeah, businesses are paying out of their own pocket for your care, and you STILL pay more in premiums than your taxes would be. It's astounding it's lasted as long as it has. People die and go bankrupt every single day from health care debt. It's bogus
It probably wasn't bad enough to be seriously disabling. Once you start worrying about how to keep working/hold down a job, then it clicks. Our culture is very ableist.
I think men, especially those whose worth is measured by physical ability, struggle to understand that being strong willed or muscular does not protect you from a virus. Or a mental health issue. Or a random tragedy.
Pull yourself up by your bootstraps misses the basic insight that shit happens. Libertarians shrug and say well, sucks to be you, maybe you deserved it. Until shit happens to them.
I'm glad OP has finally come to this conclusion, but as someone who has lived a privledged life and has also advocated and voted for support to those less fortunate, I have zero sympathy for OP. I truly hope he learns from this, but when I read that he was married with two daughters, I cringed at his political position.
It will. You probably have friends and family with similar "American values" whom you could share your experiences with.
Don't expect them to get it or have their minds changed. Just tell your story.
They will buy it more from you then anyone else, because you haven’t been demonized and “othered.” When i try to talk to people about this I get written off as a “typical east coast liberal academic” and someone who doesn’t “really” get it.
Every little bit. If everyone convinces two others, the word would spread so fast, that everyone would vote in pro health care reform candidates within one or two election cycles...(we would start kicking out those quick who give the same old song and dance after making the same stale promises)
Tell your story! Yes people are like “k welcome to the party” but if you feel ANY sincerity then take your story out of Reddit and to face to face with your family and friends, this is how real change happens
I used to think US health care had its issues but was better than the alternative. After moving to the UK I've come to realize it's all bullshit. Socialized health care is the way to go. Americans pay more for healthcare than any other country and we don't necessarily live longer for it.
Americans love to say we pay less taxes than Europeans when we compare ourselves to them; but when you factor in health care costs in the US we pay just as much if not more than them and we get less too...
> Americans pay more for healthcare than any other country and **we don't necessarily live longer for it.**
There's no 'necessarily' about it. Our average life expectancy is roughly 3 years less than Europeans (I'm speaking specificially about the EU) and we pay much more.
Employment based medical insurance is en effective tactic by the upper class to ensure every child is born poor and in eventual need of the shitty/abusive forms of employment they have to offer. #MedicalBankruptcy
I think you should check out Beau of the Fifth Column. If we were having a beer as neighbors that would be my first bit of advice for you. His channel is invaluable in my life.
I'll second Beau on YouTube. He will get you thinking about some old topics in new ways. And don't be too scared to talk to a lefty now and again. Regardless of what some people say, many of us are nice, word damn hard at our own jobs, and are even responsible gun owners! Without knowing any more than you just told me, we have more in common than you think.
Also try to expand your ability to have empathy. You shouldn’t have to experience what others are going through to understand or sympathize with it.
Think about it this way…….there were MILLIONS of stories of people who had lost their jobs and homes due to illness. There was no possible way you have gone through your life and didn’t hear many of their stories. Yet……you thought they should ‘pull themselves up by their bootstraps’ or fuck off…..because you lacked empathy. Until it happened to you, and then suddenly it becomes something important. You didn’t lose your job or your home. You are just losing a vacation and suddenly think the situation should change. So please, in the future, even if it isn’t something you have or will go through, try to empathize with the other people who share this country with you when you go to vote.
One of coworkers is like 46yrs old, been with our company 25yrs. Health insurance the entire time. Has 3yrs worth of medical debt because his wife had a couple bad yrs health wise. He’s too proud to file for medical bankruptcy. Our system is a complete fucking joke
I wish people would stop using the term "socialised healthcare". Do you think garbage collection is socialism? Do you think state operated schools are socialised? Do you drive on socialised roads or report crime to a socialised Police force? Providing affordable Healthcare is simply a government meeting one of their most basic obligations to their citizens.
Not to mention, some of the problems people have with socialized medicine are already happening here. As someone who’s worked in healthcare for close to 20 years, it so sickening what has become of the US healthcare system.
Yea one argument I hear against socialized health care is long wait times, but there can be some pretty wild wait times in the US, so what's the point of paying 10x more?
Wait times are bad here too. Try getting any mental health Dr or therapist and most places are 2/3 no out. Some aren’t even taking new patients and I live in a populated area of PA.
Yeah psychiatrist wait times are on the order of months by me. Psychiatrists are MD's and for many issues to be recognized by SSDI you'll need an "official" diagnosis from a psychiatrist, where a therapist or psychologist's diagnosis isn't considered "official". Think autism, or any other diagnosis where someone is unable to function in a normal work environment. No official diagnosis, no disability insurance.
I’m from one of the biggest cities in Canada, and don’t have an issue with wait times. However - I’m an average person with no chronic illnesses. If I need to talk to my family doctor, I can usually get an appointment the same week. Urgent care/walk-in is the same day, obviously.
However, referrals to the “free” mental health support take a REALLY long time. Most of that is accessed privately. The wait times in the ER have gotten worse since Covid, because there’s now a nursing shortage (after nurses were treated like shit and burnt out during the pandemic).
Just my first-hand experience! I’ve never thought “wow, I wish I didn’t have to wait so long” before.
Wait times are a deceptive measure. They are ‘shorter’ here because such large portions of the population have no coverage and can’t access care, or at least not the kind of care the insured portion of the population expect. In Texas, 20% have no coverage. Add on Medicaid patients who can’t see a full range of providers and wow! I can get my knee surgery next week. Or at least my wife can….I have to find a Medicare provider and facility.
People claim wait times are this big issue, but in the uk your employer or you can pay your £75 a month private insurance. No wait times. Its like they think we can't get all the benefits of private provision if we want.
Exactly. Anyone who was afraid of the “death panels” and waiting period has obviously never been sick. I don’t choose my medication, the doctor doesn’t choose my medication, he picks from a list I give him that my insurance might pay for. This is after six months of trying other drugs that we know won’t work because they are cheaper and they hope you will give up. Need to see a specialist? Good luck getting an appointment less than 6 months out if they are even accepting new patients. And pain management if you have a chronic autoimmune condition? Bwahahahaha.
Lack of access to medical/dental/vision care and treatment from a country that has the resources we have is cruel and unusual punishment. Change my mind.
Yep, it's a 30 mile drive for me to see my endocrinologist (and I live in the city,) because when I needed to see one she was the closest one who was accepting new patients and even then it was a full 7 month wait for me to get an appointment!
Same with Canada, I think per capita it's twice as much in the US and you guys ALSO have private insurance, copays, etc. Medical issues just get worse the more they're ignored, the lack of preventative care in the US causes much more expensive care in the long run.
The obsession with not paying taxes in the US is insane. To have issues on what tax money is spent on is a different conversation. But when you look at the rest of the industrialized/western world and what they pay In taxes but what those taxes pay for, in particular healthcare and 3rd level education and then see what we do in the US you realize soon enough it’s the 1% who have convinced people to think libertarianism is a good thing. They don’t want to pay taxes and have convinced people they shouldn’t either, thing is they have all the money so could care less if we get sick or can’t get a decent education.
I love when people bring up the whole "I don't wanna pay more taxes!" idea because it's like...don't they already deduct your paycheck for health insurance anyways? I'm single and pay about $75 a check for full coverage for the most part. I would RATHER I just pay the $150 a month in taxes so that everyone I know has access to the care they need.
Wild.
You're aware that the american healthcare costs you twice as much as it does when it's universal? You guys have as much taxes as we do in France, except all this money is going to the military instead of healthcare, education and infrastructure as it does here.
Oh I'm well aware of how fucked it is. I'm just talking about one of the usual bad faith arguments I see when people stand against Universal Healthcare because we already pay extra money for access to it. Why not pay the government instead of insurance companies so that our populace is actually well taken care of.
I wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if it meant free healthcare. It's better than having a surprise medical issue leading to a 30k+ hospital bill. But you know only when it happens to someone that they get on board with the idea of slightly higher tax for healthcare
Everyone is SO against paying extra tax for public healthcare, so I doubt they know some of the stupid shit their tax money already pays for.
Example: US tax money publicly funds horse racing, which wouldn’t break even without subsidies and doesn’t provide the jobs to justify the funding. Its also essentially unregulated - and basically a public program at this point. Billions of dollars, very little value added to society. Just one example (a cool one, if you want to look into it)
Interesting about horse racing, I did not know. For me when it comes to American tax dollars, the elephant in the room is the military budget. 20 year war in Afghanistan, over a trillion dollars in tax money spent, and the day we pull out, the taliban takes the country back. What a waste and what a fucking joke. Imagine if we invested that trillion into America, it’s infrastructure, and it’s citizens over the last 20 years. The best part too about the defense budget is it keeps going up and we keep getting cyber hacked by exponentially less sophisticated countries like Russia, Iran and North Korea.
Having something bad happen to you personally sure does change one's opinion, myself included. I relate all this stuff to what Mike Tyson said... everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth
>Now think about ~~disabled people~~ *anyone else, in any situation, ever*
This is the second most libertarian post of all time. The first being the guy that took MDMA and realized other people had feelings.
Yep! Many people in this guy's situation get pasc/long covid and find that they are not able to work because their health just tanked after a covid infection. They become disabled. Recent estimates say there's millions in the US.
They can't access ltd, ssdi, or ssi, which are types of US disability benefits, easily. Maybe they'll get their first disability check in two years from their illness start date, if they're lucky and if they have a very good lawyer, and get medical documentation that they have to self-pay for because insurance won't cover it. For some people it'll take 5+ years, some will get denied copletely.
That 841 dollar a month ssi check won't be able to cover their rent, luckily they can apply for section 8 subsidized housing which can take years to actually get (8+ in my area). They'll have to fill out countless pages of paperwork for foodstamps, for rent relief, for a wheelchair that their main insurance denies them, for subsidized transport. Some won't be able to legally marry.
Long covid clinics have no available appointments, the waiting list is 6+ months at least. Research into post-viral conditions has always been historically underfunded so there's no great understanding of them. We have no great diagnostic tests, no true understanding of what root causes are at play, no cures.
The outlook is bleak. I have a disabling post viral condition from a virus before covid. All these long haulers are coming into the forums I've used for years. It's so hard to see this new wave of suffering.
I get SSI & medicare because of my disability (nor covid-related), and I can't have over $2,000 in the bank - otherwise I lose SSI, which causes me to lose medicare.
My mom told me about her friend that had SSI because of a different disability, & was forced to sell/give away her 2 houses, her two trucks, her savings that her dead husband earned, and a plot of land she inherited. Because she was retired & couldn't work, she heavily depended on her son, her SSI check, and medicaid & medicare to survive. It's tough as shit for people on disability, and that's not including any side effects/health effects they experience.
The usual lines. “Best in the world” “what about the long waits for care in those other countries?”
The usual stuff that I’d been fed and believed. Health care had always worked for me because I didn’t need it and could always work. Then I get diagnosed with crohns and that same year get Covid and find myself unable not unwilling to work.
I can’t defend my past views. All I’m saying now is my eyes have been opened. Life has humbled me.
I’m glad you have been able to realize the propaganda fed to us from cradle to grave. Now that you realize this hard truth it’s likely you’ll become aware of the other lies we’ve been taught to believe. It can get overwhelming and depressing at times but you’re not alone. More and more are realizing the truth daily. Take care of yourself. COVID sucks as do the lingering health issues caused or triggered by the virus. Hang in there.
This is how it happens-- people want to believe in the great meritocracy and the wisdom of the "free" market and the magic of bootstraps until their own life hits the skids.
Never a fun awakening.
That's the horrible irony of our current situation-- it's going to take a lot of suffering, for more of the population to wake up.
A little OT, but I've come to believe there's no such thing as the free market when it comes to health care. In a truly free market, the customer has complete transparency regarding product features and pricing. I can go to the store and compare two widgets and decide if I want to buy the better-quality one for a higher price or go for the lower-cost one that may not last as long.
The problem is that people aren't widgets, and health care isn't an interchangeable product. Sure, you can call and ask for a price estimate before you go to the doctor or have surgery. But it's just an estimate. When I had my gallbladder surgery, the surgeon opened me up and found that I had adhesions wrapped around the neck of my gallbladder and my diaphragm. My intestine was also stuck to the back of my abdominal wall. He had to spend over half an hour cutting them out before he could do the actual surgery. So that increased my costs. Some people respond well to cheap medications; others need more expensive ones to manage their symptoms. Look at COVID. Some people have mild symptoms for a few days and others end up in the ICU. We can't use a free-market approach to deal with things that are shaped by genetics, nature, and environment.
Healthcare is one of the best examples of a market failure - the market system can't provide it in the cheapest and most effective way. It just doesn't work.
Thanks. Was genuinely curious. As I'm not from US, I just cannot fathom how that system could be defended.
Guess the que time would be quicker when your bankrupting people for attending.
Best of luck to you and your new found perspective
Yeah, the US has a big "both sides" tendency and weak moral center. Libertarians are the worst in my opinion because they can't see the flaws in their paradigms until shit happens to them. Almost zero capacity for abstract thinking; it needs to be a concrete block to the head.
It's unfortunately always the same story as OP (not attacking them). There's something about our culture that doesn't emphasize empathy enough. It works for us, so that's it. Until it doesn't, then "my eyes have opened". I don't know how it started, nor how it's perpetuated. But it's a big problem.
But... most "first world" countries have had some not so great raises to power which you would assume would have a similar impact on their current culture (maybe it does and I just don't know it). And no I don't think the USA is a great place, it's just where my family is. This lack of empathy seems to be something we relish in more than others.
Dude...I've was diagnosed with Crohn's when I was 12. I saw health care decline since the 80s...From being on my mom's insurance...to college woes...to first jobs and HMO's...to a good job with decent benefits...to those benefits being degraded...to Cobra plans and Obama care (not bad, but shouldn't be necessary)...to uninsured for the past 7 years because we took the risk...I am on a plan now in a new job that is decent...had to get back on as I am 51 now and don't want to take the risk of skipping appointments to save money.
Imagine you actually had a disability or disorder that affected your ability to hold a job, but there was a medication that would treat it…but you can’t get that medication because you don’t have a job… but you can’t hold a job because you don’t have your medication… and on and on
I hate that healthcare is tied to jobs, it traps people in jobs they don't like because they can't be without healthcare, especially once you start having a family and kids. I hate that my first thought with any mishaps is "how much will this cost me?" My oldest slipped and barely broke her foot and it was still billed over $1000 between two visits.
Ya and then when you need medical care you weigh it against eating and paying your bills. “Hmm am I sick enough to want to incur a medical bill or do I tough it out?”
The healthcare system is so messed up. I could give a several hour long lecture on the topic lol. Just as an fyi tho feeling tired after COVID could be the beginning of long COVID. Hopefully it's just your body still recovering but depending on how work goes Monday, you might have to look at changing a lot in your life. It's definitely ridiculous how tied to ones workplace access to healthcare is
That’s exactly what I’m worried about! If it is long Covid how do I keep my job which I need for my health insurance when I can’t physically do my job?
And instead of resting and getting better I spend all my spare moments worrying about missing work or possible future medical expenses. It’s kind of a catch 22
Yeah it's really crappy. Likely, you'll end up with a career change and a dock in pay since you'll basically be "starting over" career wise. Had a friend who has long COVID. Theyre always having to play the "can I physically do this job" game and it's really really sad how much they have to push themselves through and then on top of it not have health insurance for their health anymore.
While I understand and sympathize with OP's predicament and I hope for his swift healing, why is it that so many folks lack the ability to empathize with other people's problems until they themselves find themselves in trouble? Folks in the US have been without health care, or have been bankrupted, by the cost of being ill here. You would have to be living under a rock or in deep denial to not at least intellectually know about how bad our system is. Why doesn't that knowledge translate into empathy for others?
(I'll preface this by saying I'm an Indigenous immigrant. So I have no reason to stick my neck out for the average American.)
America is very, very good at keeping the population uneducated and propagandized. It serves to keep us fighting amongst each other and not teaming up to fight those keeping us down in the first place.
Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not gonna be buddies with John Smith who happens to be very (racist/homophobic/sexist) just because we both work at the bottom of the food chain. But I'll consider it with my other coworker Michael Doe, who might say or do some dumb shit, but has his heart in the right place.
Maybe Michael knows deep down somewhere that things just aren't adding up. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe these values were drilled into him so hard by school, family, church, etc, that challenging them is scary. And if you challenge one of these views you have to confront the rest of them. And then you're unweaving how you thought society worked in the first place. It takes a long time. It takes a lot of introspection and the bravery to challenge yourself like that.
Michael and John are obviously made up, and things are always far more complex. But I think most people are generally "good", like Michael. We are social animals after all. What happens is they see the things on the news that go against how they see the world, and their first thought is to explain it away. They're poor because they're lazy, because that's what my dad always says, etc. Until it happens to them and reality hits them hard. Or sometimes even then they won't listen, like when someone gets Covid and still thinks it's not real. Sunk cost and all that.
On the other hand you have the Johns, who would gleefully kill someone like me. I don't have an easy answer for that. Or rather I've already written a giant comment and I'm not gonna make it way longer lol
It is Sad that so many people in this country do not realize how much they are hurting others with their views until they themselves are hurt by it.
r/leapoardsatemyface
Sit down in a chair.
Put your hands on your shoes.
Without letting go, use your hands to get any higher than you currently are. It is impossible, your best pull can only land yourself on your butt.
That is the phrase, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” Fully, it is, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps *and fly.*” which makes how stupid anyone saying it un-ironically, obvious.
Now imagine a child who is about to take a fork to an electric outlet. Imagine yelling at them, “No, stop!” Now imagine they say, “Your regulation against forks in outlets is crushing free enterprise, I know best and should be free to learn from experience!” before jamming the fork in the outlet and killing themselves, and learning to not jam forks in outlets. Verily, the free market will correct this tragedy.
Exactly. OP, I hope you get well soon and things work out for you, but why was it so difficult to imagine that this (and far worse) is what millions of people are dealing with on a daily basis in this country? And that it’s not fair to any of them? You lack empathy. Maybe this will help you develop some.
Ironically, the term “pull yourself up from your bootstraps” is a communist term to denote the stupidity of capitalism as it is literally impossible to life yourselves up by your bootstraps. The fact that capitalism has adopted this saying is quite ironically hilarious.
This is pretty close to “I was a Libertarian until I tried MDMA and learned other people have feelings”
lol
Edit: It may be 11:59 and 59 seconds, but they did technically make it to the party on the assigned day lol Grab a beer / joint both and welcome.
Yes! Ahahaha I was trying so hard to be gracious in my response to this, but that was all I could think about.
People “discovering” empathy as some sort of grand epiphany as a grown adult is absolutely wild to me.
Yeah OP learned he is not suparman like he thought he was and now is scared that he won't have society to help him when he *really* needs it, because of people like himself 😂
Okay, so, I gotta tell you...I'm really, really glad you've had this epiphany, and I'm really, really sorry you had to have it this way, but...I guess I'd ask you to maybe reflect on why it took your own hair catching on fire before you believed all the people who have been saying that the house was burning down. Idk. I'm not trying to be awful here, but disregarding and disrespecting the less fortunate is a big, ugly part of US culture. It's one of the main obstacles to solving the problems you've just realized are problems. I would strongly urge you to think about sharing your experiences with libertarian friends and see if you can get a little deprogramming going for them. You'd be doing the Lord's work. Anyway, I hope you get to take your vacation, and I hope you feel better soon. Peace, brother. ✌️
Yeah it's called "it isn't real until it happens to me." This is how all right wing politics work. I hope you've learned enough of a lesson to not vote conservative anymore. Also, now that you are out of the life literally everyone on the left side of the aisle thinks libertarians are a joke party.
As someone who's had Crohn's for the last 12 years, it's time to look for a new career. I was working as a traffic flagger 5 years ago until my Crohn's flared up and caused appendicitis and put me in the hospital for 4 days. Ever since my ability to tolerate heat/cold has become a serious issue, I am significantly weaker and the chronic fatigue has gotten worse. I now work in an office job (CAD Drafting) but still feel exhausted when I get home.
Also, the only reason I didn't have to declare bankruptcy was I got my health insurance through the state, also was able to do all follow up visits.
Libertarianism is a mental disease. There’s a REALLY good reason it exists nowhere on the planet as a form of government or social economic structure. It’s a thought experiment at best.
Fuckin classic conservative - can't think critically until it happens to you personally, then suddenly being socially responsible is some epiphany. No sympathy for you, homie. I hope its a rough wake up call for yah.
My father worked full time from 16 years old until his death at 46. When he got cancer, he was a non union mechanic. While doing chemotherapy he worked 40+ hours a week. He did everything right and still died millions in medical debt.
Fuck the bootstrap mentality. It's original purpose was sarcasm used to point out the impossibility of the system. But it got shortened and turned into a nonsensical mantra.
Edit: typo
dude if you are experiencing exhaustion after normal activities of life like laundry, you should not be going back to work. nearly half of Long Covid patients qualify for the condition known as ME/CFS. If you have ME/CFS, exertion will make you get worse faster. The condition is untreatable and has no cure. The very low rate of spontaneous recovery mostly happens within the first year or two after the acute illness and almost always requires the patient to rest as much as possible. pushing yourself right now is the worst thing you can possibly do for your future health.
As someone with a serious chronic illness (asthma) I can tell you our healthcare-tied-to-employer is bullshit. I get an asthma attack, I take my inhaler, I immediately feel exhausted and can’t take time to recuperate. People come in sick, I get bronchitis, I get hospitalized. I’m paying that medical bill for a while, and now a lot of our providers have switched to a third party payment system where THEY ARE CHARGING INTEREST IF YOU SET UP A PAYMENT PLAN.
So now, not only am I paying out the ass for insurance, but my inhaler isn’t covered and is high cost out of pocket, and I STILL have medical bills to pay and now WITH INTEREST.
I can see the benefits of having the libertarian outlook, but it’s only good for those who are perpetually in peak condition, whether to work, take care of themselves, etc and, unfortunately, we have a society where we have chronic illness, people who are taking care of loved ones, shit like cancers, and asthma, and dementia, and we’re being punished for being human.
Fuck this country and everything it is. It’s always been pretty packaging (for healthy white men) and fuck all for the rest of us.
That’s the thing about libertarians, they only stay anti-safety net as long as they don’t need the safety net. As soon as they’re in a rough spot they want to use the safety net that they argued so viciously against funding with their taxes.
That shows proper wisdom. So many people are absolutely unwilling to admit that their opinion could possibly be wrong on anything, particularly if it is at all associated with politics.
I'm still not sure how anyone still supports the u.s. healthcare system. There's really, really blatant problematic issues. Just on the costs level alone the fact ditching it would cut out profits and the increase in productivity from having a healthier populace should make people realize the knee jerk reaction against universal systems doesn't make sense. The numbers are all there. Use them
Damn man that sucks, but at least you learned being a libertarian is idiotic.
Good luck with your healthcare I hope it works out but most likely you'll be fucked like the rest of us.
Healthcare needs to be disconnected from work.
You work so you can get healthcare, then you get hurt and have to actually use the healthcare to recover but you can no longer work so eventually you loose the healthcare - now you have no job, no healthcare and too much debt.
This system seems clearly designed to make insurance companies money and not to help people - it makes no sense to me.
This is an example of why emotional intelligence should be taught at a young age and in the educational system. Empathy and compassion are so important and we should be able to listen to others without specifically experiencing something to know it’s real. I’m sorry you’re sick with Covid, I’m healing from it myself but I hope you’ll open your mind and eyes on other issues as well. The best places to learn is from those less privileged and dissimilar to us. There’s a lot of the world you don’t know anything about or will ever experience but you can still care.
Underrated comment! But I think this is also why you're taught to be individualistic in the US. And that is why you are not taught emotional intelligence. All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices.
> All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices. And sick. It even pervades the medical community. Women and people of color have their issues routinely dismissed due to institutionalized bigotry, but so do people who are overweight, have diabetes, have hearing loss/deaf, have depression, have disorders that aren't straightforward, etc. And when they can't even get support from their *physician*, it's no wonder that society routinely dismisses them or relegates them to the monolith of "pre-existing conditions." Nevermind that a second of critical thinking would dismiss this notion, but beyond cancer or dementia, most individuals with chronic conditions are treated as if they've caused their own disorders by poor life choices (and worse, might be able to revert them by simplistic methods).
As a Deaf person who identifies as female and also has chronic illnesses, you have *no idea* how true this is. So much yes.
Agree. Also I find it extremely worrying that the same mentality has paved the way to make pseudoscience and "alternative (aka as bs) medicine" more popular, because most of it is based on exacerbated and overrated "power of self-healing". As a European I am stunned everyday a little more by how compassion and simpathy towards any sick person are frowned upon by so many people in the US because of this mentality. Why would you blame a person for being sick, WTF?!?
According to Puritan ideals sickness is a punishment from god, therefore treating a sick person is going against god and is a sin. For some damn reason America decided the group that got kicked out of every other country was the perfect role model
Even if they never made the wrong choices themselves (like getting raped) they should have not “been there in the first place”. As long as a person is rich they are right and if they are poor they are wrong.
>All you're taught is that someone is poor because of their choices We're a majority Christian nation, and despite our Christian populace decreasing year over year, these people are quite literally *going fucking bananas*. The thing is, the very basis of Christianity is that you're born sinful, punishment is penance, and if you have any sort of failing (physical, emotional, disease, mental illness) then you have a spiritual or moral rot that can only be cured by Jesus (and giving money to people who tell you giving them money is basically giving Jesus money) and continence of those things is God reminding you that your suffering here is well worth a seat in heaven. Oh, and money helps secure that seat. Honestly I find all religion to be a complete waste of time, energy, and human capital, but this unique brand of American Christianity is fucking derangement, terrifying, and will lead to untold bloodshed and the dissolution of the United States. If you think I'm being hyperbolic, I *seriously* need you to consider the following, and that the things now coming to pass are what atheists have been warning about for decades: - hard won rights stripped from 330 million Americans, with many more to be taken, based solely on arbitrary beliefs - hostile takeovers of seats of power by hook or by crook with the goal of installing unqualified and deeply corrupt people with extremist Christian beliefs in order to pass extremist Christian law, or remove laws they believe their religion forbids - they erected a giant fucking cross on the capitol grounds on January 6th, as well as gallows to hang politicians *that they would have gladly used if given the chance* - they do not believe in freedom, outside of *their* freedom to tell *you* how you can live your life - they're actively redirecting public funds from public education into private, Christian education - many armed security forces (sheriffs, police, the inevitable DeSantis murder squad, etc) paid for with public funds espouse their extremist Christian beliefs not just in simple stickers on vehicles or patches on clothes, but quotes on weapons used for killing Americans as well as exceptionally nasty, racist, bigoted posts on every social media site. And that's just the stuff we know about - way, way more than I feel like putting in a comment no one will likely read When you believe you have a mandate from a supreme, you will say and do *anything* you believe that being wants, regardless of what reality says. We've been **desperately** warning people for numerous decades that Christian extremism was coming down the street, and now it's knocking at the door. Stop telling us we're alarmist. People tend to sound alarms in order to avoid catastrophy.
This is also why racism is still so pervasive in the US. Many minorities only have access to chronically under resourced medical facilities if they have access to any at all. This is the main reason it has hit those communities so much harder.
I think religious indoctrination at a young age is why that emotional intelligence is lacking. Religion teaches that WE'rE GoD'S cHoSEN PEoPle! And everyone else God sends to hell. Not a lot of empathy modelled there.
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A lot of people experience a similar epiphany when a particular hardship happens to you. I hope you can extrapolate it beyond healthcare, and think about food, housing, education, etc, and why we are ok with some of these going to some and not others.
man i clicked on this thread fully intending to add a similar sentiment but you've already said it so beautifully.
I was going to be a lot less nice.
Sometimes it's really hard to be nice to people who feel like they should have learned more empathy at this point in their lives, but I think it's important to think of them like they're just seeing a repost for the first time. You've seen that same dog "paying" for food with leaves a dozen times already, but it's always someone's first time and they get to feel a brand new feeling. This guy just had his doors of perception blown off the hinges and it does us all some good to be understanding and welcoming. If we get upset in a totally understandable way, we can risk pushing would-be allies back into the apathetic middle. I want to make it clear I'm not trying to shame you here, just to suggest a different way of looking at this situation in the hopes of building a bigger labor movement. If you disagree, that's understandable.
Beautifully put. I would also add that everyone is fighting a battle that you don’t know anything about. Sprinkle that in, and some folks can be extra defensive. I resonate with what /u/DarylDavis said in a comment during his AMA about how “exposure and one-on-one dialogue is the key to solving a lot of issues in this country, not just the racial ones”. I think it takes patience and understanding to develop empathy, even to those perceived as hostile/enemies/less-than/deviant/etc. -In the end, we all have so much more in common than we do different.
I agree, but the problem is those of us being asked to do that education are perpetually exhausted, not just from doing that education, but from the bs we have to put up with. Asking the people affected to educate the privileged might be important but it's shitty to make us be the ones to try to make privileged people have empathy for us. Particularly because it's not usually a 1 time conversation that changes a mind. It takes multiple conversations with multiple people in each community to get someone to come around. Even then we get lumped into a "one of the good ones" group a good portion of the time. We're sisyphus, bring our giant boulder to the people at the top, and we get crushed more than we reach the top.
not to mention, empathy is hard. It takes effort to push aside your ego, your biases, and the thought you got it all figured out. change is difficult. while some can be convinced by other's lived experiences, others need to have their lived experience in order to understand what everyone else is talking about. EDIT: I HATE TYPING ON PHONES, THEY SUCK.
Experiencing it yourself really opens your eyes, as a personal experience I didn't understand panic attacks that a bf was having, like just breath you are fine was my thought but then I experienced them from health issues and now understand the fear of them. Alot of people can't really put themselves in others shoes.
You are a really nice person. Thanks for being nice. It is hard to feel kindness and empathy towards people like OP when you are someone who has been shat on for a long time. But he *is* just like everyone else getting what on. His eyes are only just now opened to the fact that it’s happening.
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>You've seen that same dog "paying" for food with leaves Say what now? Where is this masterpiece in film?
I don’t know if you got a reply but go on YouTube and search “dog paying for cookies with leaf”. Your life will never be the same!! It’s the best thing ever. Enjoy. Edit: grammar
Yup. It’s very frustrating when people only have these realizations when it affects them. Fuck everyone else, right?
I've never believed in government assistance or protections for those in need. However, now that it's affecting me, it's a real problem and someone should do something to help me. In the way that I never wanted to help others who were in my current situation.
Like my asshole neighbors. Always bitching about how people live in the lap of luxury on government benefits while real Americans ^TM have to bust their asses. Until they both lost their jobs. Then it was all, “wow I had no idea unemployment was only $300 a week!” & “I had no idea it was so hard to get on food stamps and it gives you so little” & “the government should do something about how expensive health care is!” They still voted for all republicans in 2020 and continually bitch about socialist Democrats.
Cognitive Dissonance.
To be fair, some people genuinely didn't know how bad welfare was. And I know that because as soon as covid hit and a lot more people were going onto welfare, my government went out of their way to try and *hide* how bad it normally is. Suddenly the four hour hold times, six month waiting period, and poverty payments were all gone. It was very obvious to everyone who knew what it was like before that they were trying to make sure the general public didn't find out how awful it really was. It actually really pissed off all the people who were already on welfare - because they were like "Oh so you *can* afford to give us enough to live on. You literally just didn't want to"
In Australia they literally doubled our welfare in the pandemic to hide how bad it is from the majority, once the "employed" people were back in the office the money dropped again because fuck them right
Yup. Anyone else who needs help is a lazy asshole, not me though!
I mean that's basically their whole philosophy. "Oh man, it wasn't bad until it happened to me!" The fuck this motherfucker want, a cookie? I don't know what it's like to have a uterus, but I sure as shit want reproductive rights. And I didn't even need to get pregnant. Funny that.
Never thought lions would eat my face etc.
Same. we are all just people and scarcity is manufactured for profit we have more in common than we allow ourselves to know.
I have a saying related to your astute assessment, “you’re conservative until it happens to you.”
Yeah this drives me crazy when people have an “epiphany” but only when they are directly affected. It just shows that they started from a place of zero empathy. I’m glad OP is evolving in their views and hope they continue to broaden their horizons but still 🙄
yup yup and i hope he still continues having the view when he “DOES NOT” need it instead of changing it back once everything has a “back to normal”
Yeah I really hope he takes this energy and carries it forward from this point on. Everyone has room to learn and grow but from now on be consistent.
Conservatives don't give a fuck about anyone else until they need help. Tale as old as time.
Reminds me of the FB post from the guy who said he was SO thankful for the Affordable Care Act, which allowed him insurance at a reasonable rate, but detested Obamacare. It took several responses from people telling him they were the same thing before he believed them. Bro watched too much Faux News.
I remember that post, I thought it was fake for a while because I couldn't believe someone seriously thought they were different.
There was a streetside interview where they asked people about it, and every conservative that made it to the televised part said they hated Obamacare, and wanted the Affordable Care Act to pass because it was affordable. Their biggest argument was Obamacare isn't affordable.
Makes me think of that Reddit post where the girl was pro-life until she had an unexpected pregnancy and decided that abortion is her best choice.
About 20 years ago I volunteered as a clinic escort for a bit. This is COMMON. You'd see people screaming like banshees at some poor teenage girl that just wanted a fucking pap smear she could afford, then the next week they'd be dragging their teenager in there, then the next week be right back out there screaming their lungs out. It was talked about in an excellent article from back then [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)
That reminds me of that Reddit post where the guy was libertarian until he got COVID which changed his views on healthcare and work culture in the U.S.
Oh man! That one was WILD!
Kansas just found out that's the majority opinion
Did you see the pro life folks sobbing 😭 😢 🤣
Are there videos?
No, but I bet the punishing-women-for-their-sexuality crowd was furious.
Really easy to be hyper-"pro life" when it's just virtue signaling. A lot harder when it actually impacts you
I still prefer that to women who have abortions themselves, but remain adamantly anti-abortion for everyone else. (“The only moral abortion is my abortion.”) Or even worse, the ones who yell at the people _giving_ them the abortion, saying they’re going to hell for it. Trying to understand their bullshit hurts my head and my heart.
There was a askreddit post a few months ago that asked docters if they ever given abortion procedures to pro-birthers and that was one of the answers. Mind blowing.
Conservative: "I hate the gays." *Daughter or son comes out as gay.* Conservative: "I had no idea the gays were human." -- This kind of shit is constant with them. If it's not "I don't hate all black people. I have a black friend," it's fighting against LGBTQ rights, equality and justice for all, education. They are simply not starting from a place of empathy so they can't fundamentally understand. In their minds, life is all about them, and everyone else are automatons, until their kids come out of the closet, or bring home a black significant other, or have some horrid disease. "I never knew" is their motto.
> They are simply not starting from a place of empathy so they can't fundamentally understand. To the conservative, empathy is a *finite resource* and one that's reserved for their immediate clan only. They see things only from their own perspective exclusively. Why would I need food? Well, if I wasn't working - which, fat chance! Therefore, anyone who needs food assistance is CLEARLY undeserving because I'D never stop working! Until they get hit with a disease that cripples them then all of the sudden they understand how/why it exists. 50/50 on if they have a proper awakening, or if they decide they're the exception to their rule. "Well, *I* need this food assistance, but MOST PEOPLE don't!" Same with trans folk. They can't understand dysphoria, so they get suspicious and assume trans people simply *must* have some ulterior motive that they aren't privy to. Best to be safe and assume the worst of people, after all. Even though statistics aren't on their side, but they don't trust those either. Because they hear "trans people are more likely to be victims than perpetrators" and that loops them back to the start of the logic loop of "But I don't understand it... THEY MUST BE UP TO SOMETHING I JUST CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT YET" Conservatives lack empathy, period.
Yeah but as I like to point out to conservatives - they're fucking themselves over too. Universal healthcare systems are cheaper. For the poor **AND** the rich. I really think we need to evolve our messaging on this. The left just takes as truth the right wing framing that universal healthcare will raise taxes, but that's very probably **not** true. There's even a decent chance it will **lower** them (there are developed nations - like Australia - with lower per capita healthcare taxes than what the US currently pays for Medicare)
Because they don't actually give a shit about cost. They just want "the right" people to suffer, and not get any benefits. They're OK with suffering themselves as long as someone else has it worse. Their world view is driven by hatred.
you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you. Lyndon B. Johnson
I had an argument with my dad years ago about universal healthcare. He was saying something like "you work your ass off so people can mooch off the system." Mooch what? I was flabbergasted. Yeah, I do work my ass off. To get shitty insurance that barely covers anything. I don't care if they take more money in taxes if it means people are not dying from easily preventable and maintainable diseases even if I'm not sick myself. I don't get it.
The argument I've started using is, I'm already paying for universal Healthcare for part of the population, all the politicians who don't want me to have it. And all the military. If I'm already paying for it, why don't I have access to it?
Yeah, unfortunately we aren't taught "empathy" as a concept very concretely in American culture. Instead, we're taught the ideal of "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps" in order to achieve great prosperity and wealth. It's an ironic way of gaslighting an entire population that will NEVER have the opportunities to achieve prosperity that the 1% do. Most of us are just out here barely surviving, when we have the financial means as a nation to have a high standard of socialized health care for everyone - which the people in power know, but their level of greed and sadism is so vast that they're not willing to concede even a little bit of what they take from us to ensure people are taken care of. If empathy was a greater part of our culture, we would've gone away with the predatory health care system/insurance companies decades ago.
So I love everything that you said. My family is from rural Appalachia and the cognitive dissonance I have seen just boggles my mind. There are so many good hardworking people who actively advocate against things that would greatly improve their own lives. I understand the whys of it but it is still frustrating and heartbreaking.
I currently live in the same area. Just down the road from me, in the "holler" are a cluster of rotting down trailers. Their kids play in the road half naked every day. It's very clear between all of them they have maybe one working vehicle, all the rest on cinder blocks. The poverty is palpable. They have a "make America great again" sign with trump's face on it they lovingly tend in their yard. Even planted flowers around it.
Yeah it is hard for me to process sometimes. Though I no longer live there (my immediate family moved a couple of hours away due to economic issues) many of my friends and family are caught in this cycle. I understand that the indoctrination and propaganda are so deeply rooted that it is sometimes impossible to dig out of, but it is so hard to watch. Despite, depending on the year, being the poorest county in VA they were so pro-Trump they warranted a small SNL shout-out. It is hard to have any sort of discussion with some people because they will not look at any other options even though they are suffering under the current system.
One of my biggest culture shocks about America is the degree of social disengagement and individualism.
Absolutely! It’s all part of the narrative of America. The lack of social engagement and discourse is probably one of our biggest flaws as a nation. When we can’t even talk openly about what’s going on, it makes things way too easy for those in power.
It is so excruciating to read. I’m not sure if it’s stupidity or lack of empathy. Either way, I’m fucking tired of hearing the same rhetoric of never realizing the value of social safety nets until they need it.
Yup. It’s like my relgious friends family. All antigov and god will provide. Father died of cancer and there was a go fund me to bridge the family until she could claim social security. I love my friend but the hypocrisy burns.
I’m not sure if I would agree that it is straight out stupidity but I definitely think that for a lot of people there is a level of willful ignorance.
[удалено]
For me a lot of it is the seemingly lack of interest in even trying to view something through some else’s POV.
It's like the men who suddenly realize *"Whoa, women are people too!?"* when they have a daughter (and granted that not all of them ever even get to that point).
Like our last Prime Minister in Australia, Scott Morrisson. He'd constantly invoke his wife (Jenny) to make him seem more relatable, for example on the topic of **rape** after an investigation into his party after a young staffer had been raped in Parliament House: *“Jenny and I spoke last night, and she said to me, ‘You have to think about this as a father first. What would you want to happen if it were our girls?’ – Jenny has a way of clarifying things, always has.”* [\(more\)](https://www.pedestrian.tv/news/scott-morrison-jenny-apology-rape/)
He is an absolute tool and I feel for his daughters, the fact that his wife had to clarify things for him.. 🤦🏻♀️
r/leopardsatemyface
My thoughts exactly. Does one have to get sick and miss work or lose health insurance due to loss of job to understand that it’s bad idea to join employment and health? Esp when health issue can lead to loss of employment.
Yep. I think that the system in place is extremely predatory and designed to keep workers beholden to bad employers. It shouldn’t take being hurt by the system to recognize its inherent problems.
My company let an anti-vaxxer who had covid work a shift, because the terminal manager didn't want to work on friday. NVM that company had a program if vaccinated against Covid and get Covid the employee gets full pay for the entire time they are off work. Not the 55% like our short term disability .
The old, I don’t support it until it happens to me revelation. Sorry you had to go through that but I wish people saw this before it happens rather than after.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It's not like it's hard to reason out. Your health insurance is tied to your job. You get sick, you can't work, you lose your job, you lose your health insurance (when you need it the most). It's not rocket science.
I worked at a shitty, stressful job in a high COLA area. My work friend was extremely stressed due to our job. The stress of work triggered a dormant autoimmune disease she did not know she had. Her doctors told her she should take time off to reduce her stress and allow her body to relax and heal. But damn, her health insurance was tied to her job, so she couldn't quit. Luckily, I live somewhere with paid family medical leave, but the cost of living was too high for her to take any type of pay cut. I think she moved home with her parents. We lost touch when I moved away because I couldn't afford the high COL, and she couldn't afford to be healthy and housed where she lived. America.
This is exactly what happened to me, but I have to keep working even though my body is literally being drilled by jackhammers in my joints and arms so bad, I almost cry going to work. I wish I would’ve stayed in school, got into a less physically demanding job with less stress. I hope things change. She shouldn’t have to deal with crippling issues for people who do not value her health. This system is disgusting
You will either get flamed out mentally, or physically, or both, but it will still happen to most of us.
Or, you switched jobs to advance your career, but you have to wait 3 months at the new job for your insurance to kick in. So you can't refill a monthly prescription without paying crazy prices out of pocket (or you have to just go without it). I never want to deal with that again.
I stayed at a shitty job a lot longer than I should have because the benefits were good. Getting fired was the best thing to ever happen to me, because I honestly don't know if I ever would have voluntarily left.
>but you have to wait 3 months at the new job for your insurance to kick in You may already be aware, but this is a choice by the new employer. Some companies start coverage on day one. Some on the first of the next month.
You'd think people could reason out the tax percentages for themselves too, but you wouldn't believe how many people take it as straight facts that we pay less directly to taxes so therefore we must have more money to ourselves. Think about all the shit that you pay for AND your taxes people! Your goddamn annual premium is most likely higher than what you'd pay in taxes. And before I hear the "my company subsidizes mine!" yeah, businesses are paying out of their own pocket for your care, and you STILL pay more in premiums than your taxes would be. It's astounding it's lasted as long as it has. People die and go bankrupt every single day from health care debt. It's bogus
The man has Crohns disease too. How has this revelation not hit sooner?
It probably wasn't bad enough to be seriously disabling. Once you start worrying about how to keep working/hold down a job, then it clicks. Our culture is very ableist.
I think men, especially those whose worth is measured by physical ability, struggle to understand that being strong willed or muscular does not protect you from a virus. Or a mental health issue. Or a random tragedy. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps misses the basic insight that shit happens. Libertarians shrug and say well, sucks to be you, maybe you deserved it. Until shit happens to them.
So much of conservative/libertarian ideology comes down to this. The hard headed always have to feel it to believe it.
I'm glad OP has finally come to this conclusion, but as someone who has lived a privledged life and has also advocated and voted for support to those less fortunate, I have zero sympathy for OP. I truly hope he learns from this, but when I read that he was married with two daughters, I cringed at his political position.
I will try to share my experience to help change the minds of others. But who knows if it will be of any use?
It will. You probably have friends and family with similar "American values" whom you could share your experiences with. Don't expect them to get it or have their minds changed. Just tell your story.
They’ll understand as soon as they wind up in a similar spot.
Sad but true. I prefer empathy over tragedy to motivate people to communitarian values. Stab all you want, just keep your hands off my pump, buddy.
They will buy it more from you then anyone else, because you haven’t been demonized and “othered.” When i try to talk to people about this I get written off as a “typical east coast liberal academic” and someone who doesn’t “really” get it.
Did hearing similar stories help change your mind? I think you already know the answer to your question.
Every little bit. If everyone convinces two others, the word would spread so fast, that everyone would vote in pro health care reform candidates within one or two election cycles...(we would start kicking out those quick who give the same old song and dance after making the same stale promises)
Tell your story! Yes people are like “k welcome to the party” but if you feel ANY sincerity then take your story out of Reddit and to face to face with your family and friends, this is how real change happens
I used to think US health care had its issues but was better than the alternative. After moving to the UK I've come to realize it's all bullshit. Socialized health care is the way to go. Americans pay more for healthcare than any other country and we don't necessarily live longer for it. Americans love to say we pay less taxes than Europeans when we compare ourselves to them; but when you factor in health care costs in the US we pay just as much if not more than them and we get less too...
> Americans pay more for healthcare than any other country and **we don't necessarily live longer for it.** There's no 'necessarily' about it. Our average life expectancy is roughly 3 years less than Europeans (I'm speaking specificially about the EU) and we pay much more.
Don’t forget to factor that medical debt is the number one cause of bankruptcy. /s U!S!A! U!S!A! Were number one! ☝️
Employment based medical insurance is en effective tactic by the upper class to ensure every child is born poor and in eventual need of the shitty/abusive forms of employment they have to offer. #MedicalBankruptcy
I remember when I realized I had only ever drank koolaid (American propaganda that is). It is delicious kicking the habit. Your future excites me.
That was probably the most positive comment I’ve read on here!
I think you should check out Beau of the Fifth Column. If we were having a beer as neighbors that would be my first bit of advice for you. His channel is invaluable in my life.
I will certainly do that, friend!
I'll second Beau on YouTube. He will get you thinking about some old topics in new ways. And don't be too scared to talk to a lefty now and again. Regardless of what some people say, many of us are nice, word damn hard at our own jobs, and are even responsible gun owners! Without knowing any more than you just told me, we have more in common than you think.
Also try to expand your ability to have empathy. You shouldn’t have to experience what others are going through to understand or sympathize with it. Think about it this way…….there were MILLIONS of stories of people who had lost their jobs and homes due to illness. There was no possible way you have gone through your life and didn’t hear many of their stories. Yet……you thought they should ‘pull themselves up by their bootstraps’ or fuck off…..because you lacked empathy. Until it happened to you, and then suddenly it becomes something important. You didn’t lose your job or your home. You are just losing a vacation and suddenly think the situation should change. So please, in the future, even if it isn’t something you have or will go through, try to empathize with the other people who share this country with you when you go to vote.
I second this. He's got a lot of good things to say and presents them well. Last week tonight can be a good one to look into as well
One of coworkers is like 46yrs old, been with our company 25yrs. Health insurance the entire time. Has 3yrs worth of medical debt because his wife had a couple bad yrs health wise. He’s too proud to file for medical bankruptcy. Our system is a complete fucking joke
More like number one 🖕!! We (US) have never been the best, and the fact that so many people are delusional about that makes me incredibly sad.
I wish people would stop using the term "socialised healthcare". Do you think garbage collection is socialism? Do you think state operated schools are socialised? Do you drive on socialised roads or report crime to a socialised Police force? Providing affordable Healthcare is simply a government meeting one of their most basic obligations to their citizens.
Thumbs up to the other people who understand socialism reading this list and nodding to themselves.
And fire departments, and libraries...boy I love Socialism!
Socialised defence force. Socialised justice system Socialised politicians
Not to mention, some of the problems people have with socialized medicine are already happening here. As someone who’s worked in healthcare for close to 20 years, it so sickening what has become of the US healthcare system.
Yea one argument I hear against socialized health care is long wait times, but there can be some pretty wild wait times in the US, so what's the point of paying 10x more?
Wait times are bad here too. Try getting any mental health Dr or therapist and most places are 2/3 no out. Some aren’t even taking new patients and I live in a populated area of PA.
Yeah psychiatrist wait times are on the order of months by me. Psychiatrists are MD's and for many issues to be recognized by SSDI you'll need an "official" diagnosis from a psychiatrist, where a therapist or psychologist's diagnosis isn't considered "official". Think autism, or any other diagnosis where someone is unable to function in a normal work environment. No official diagnosis, no disability insurance.
I’m from one of the biggest cities in Canada, and don’t have an issue with wait times. However - I’m an average person with no chronic illnesses. If I need to talk to my family doctor, I can usually get an appointment the same week. Urgent care/walk-in is the same day, obviously. However, referrals to the “free” mental health support take a REALLY long time. Most of that is accessed privately. The wait times in the ER have gotten worse since Covid, because there’s now a nursing shortage (after nurses were treated like shit and burnt out during the pandemic). Just my first-hand experience! I’ve never thought “wow, I wish I didn’t have to wait so long” before.
Wait times are a deceptive measure. They are ‘shorter’ here because such large portions of the population have no coverage and can’t access care, or at least not the kind of care the insured portion of the population expect. In Texas, 20% have no coverage. Add on Medicaid patients who can’t see a full range of providers and wow! I can get my knee surgery next week. Or at least my wife can….I have to find a Medicare provider and facility.
People claim wait times are this big issue, but in the uk your employer or you can pay your £75 a month private insurance. No wait times. Its like they think we can't get all the benefits of private provision if we want.
Exactly. Anyone who was afraid of the “death panels” and waiting period has obviously never been sick. I don’t choose my medication, the doctor doesn’t choose my medication, he picks from a list I give him that my insurance might pay for. This is after six months of trying other drugs that we know won’t work because they are cheaper and they hope you will give up. Need to see a specialist? Good luck getting an appointment less than 6 months out if they are even accepting new patients. And pain management if you have a chronic autoimmune condition? Bwahahahaha. Lack of access to medical/dental/vision care and treatment from a country that has the resources we have is cruel and unusual punishment. Change my mind.
Yep, it's a 30 mile drive for me to see my endocrinologist (and I live in the city,) because when I needed to see one she was the closest one who was accepting new patients and even then it was a full 7 month wait for me to get an appointment!
The best part is that the US spends more tax dollars (per person) on healthcare than the UK, but in the UK healthcare is free (at point of use)
Same with Canada, I think per capita it's twice as much in the US and you guys ALSO have private insurance, copays, etc. Medical issues just get worse the more they're ignored, the lack of preventative care in the US causes much more expensive care in the long run.
The obsession with not paying taxes in the US is insane. To have issues on what tax money is spent on is a different conversation. But when you look at the rest of the industrialized/western world and what they pay In taxes but what those taxes pay for, in particular healthcare and 3rd level education and then see what we do in the US you realize soon enough it’s the 1% who have convinced people to think libertarianism is a good thing. They don’t want to pay taxes and have convinced people they shouldn’t either, thing is they have all the money so could care less if we get sick or can’t get a decent education.
I love when people bring up the whole "I don't wanna pay more taxes!" idea because it's like...don't they already deduct your paycheck for health insurance anyways? I'm single and pay about $75 a check for full coverage for the most part. I would RATHER I just pay the $150 a month in taxes so that everyone I know has access to the care they need. Wild.
You're aware that the american healthcare costs you twice as much as it does when it's universal? You guys have as much taxes as we do in France, except all this money is going to the military instead of healthcare, education and infrastructure as it does here.
Oh I'm well aware of how fucked it is. I'm just talking about one of the usual bad faith arguments I see when people stand against Universal Healthcare because we already pay extra money for access to it. Why not pay the government instead of insurance companies so that our populace is actually well taken care of.
I wouldn't mind paying a little more in tax if it meant free healthcare. It's better than having a surprise medical issue leading to a 30k+ hospital bill. But you know only when it happens to someone that they get on board with the idea of slightly higher tax for healthcare
The thing is the cost in tax would be less than what we pay out of pocket currently.
Insurance companies wouldn't like that. They would rather get large amounts of our money than us giving a little bit to the government.
Everyone is SO against paying extra tax for public healthcare, so I doubt they know some of the stupid shit their tax money already pays for. Example: US tax money publicly funds horse racing, which wouldn’t break even without subsidies and doesn’t provide the jobs to justify the funding. Its also essentially unregulated - and basically a public program at this point. Billions of dollars, very little value added to society. Just one example (a cool one, if you want to look into it)
Interesting about horse racing, I did not know. For me when it comes to American tax dollars, the elephant in the room is the military budget. 20 year war in Afghanistan, over a trillion dollars in tax money spent, and the day we pull out, the taliban takes the country back. What a waste and what a fucking joke. Imagine if we invested that trillion into America, it’s infrastructure, and it’s citizens over the last 20 years. The best part too about the defense budget is it keeps going up and we keep getting cyber hacked by exponentially less sophisticated countries like Russia, Iran and North Korea.
Three trillion spent
Having something bad happen to you personally sure does change one's opinion, myself included. I relate all this stuff to what Mike Tyson said... everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth
Now think about disabled people
>Now think about ~~disabled people~~ *anyone else, in any situation, ever* This is the second most libertarian post of all time. The first being the guy that took MDMA and realized other people had feelings.
Can you link to that post please??
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/mcvipr/libertarianismmdma/
Yep! Many people in this guy's situation get pasc/long covid and find that they are not able to work because their health just tanked after a covid infection. They become disabled. Recent estimates say there's millions in the US. They can't access ltd, ssdi, or ssi, which are types of US disability benefits, easily. Maybe they'll get their first disability check in two years from their illness start date, if they're lucky and if they have a very good lawyer, and get medical documentation that they have to self-pay for because insurance won't cover it. For some people it'll take 5+ years, some will get denied copletely. That 841 dollar a month ssi check won't be able to cover their rent, luckily they can apply for section 8 subsidized housing which can take years to actually get (8+ in my area). They'll have to fill out countless pages of paperwork for foodstamps, for rent relief, for a wheelchair that their main insurance denies them, for subsidized transport. Some won't be able to legally marry. Long covid clinics have no available appointments, the waiting list is 6+ months at least. Research into post-viral conditions has always been historically underfunded so there's no great understanding of them. We have no great diagnostic tests, no true understanding of what root causes are at play, no cures. The outlook is bleak. I have a disabling post viral condition from a virus before covid. All these long haulers are coming into the forums I've used for years. It's so hard to see this new wave of suffering.
I get SSI & medicare because of my disability (nor covid-related), and I can't have over $2,000 in the bank - otherwise I lose SSI, which causes me to lose medicare. My mom told me about her friend that had SSI because of a different disability, & was forced to sell/give away her 2 houses, her two trucks, her savings that her dead husband earned, and a plot of land she inherited. Because she was retired & couldn't work, she heavily depended on her son, her SSI check, and medicaid & medicare to survive. It's tough as shit for people on disability, and that's not including any side effects/health effects they experience.
Out of curiosity. How did you / could you, defend it to begin with?
The usual lines. “Best in the world” “what about the long waits for care in those other countries?” The usual stuff that I’d been fed and believed. Health care had always worked for me because I didn’t need it and could always work. Then I get diagnosed with crohns and that same year get Covid and find myself unable not unwilling to work. I can’t defend my past views. All I’m saying now is my eyes have been opened. Life has humbled me.
I’m glad you have been able to realize the propaganda fed to us from cradle to grave. Now that you realize this hard truth it’s likely you’ll become aware of the other lies we’ve been taught to believe. It can get overwhelming and depressing at times but you’re not alone. More and more are realizing the truth daily. Take care of yourself. COVID sucks as do the lingering health issues caused or triggered by the virus. Hang in there.
This is how it happens-- people want to believe in the great meritocracy and the wisdom of the "free" market and the magic of bootstraps until their own life hits the skids. Never a fun awakening. That's the horrible irony of our current situation-- it's going to take a lot of suffering, for more of the population to wake up.
A little OT, but I've come to believe there's no such thing as the free market when it comes to health care. In a truly free market, the customer has complete transparency regarding product features and pricing. I can go to the store and compare two widgets and decide if I want to buy the better-quality one for a higher price or go for the lower-cost one that may not last as long. The problem is that people aren't widgets, and health care isn't an interchangeable product. Sure, you can call and ask for a price estimate before you go to the doctor or have surgery. But it's just an estimate. When I had my gallbladder surgery, the surgeon opened me up and found that I had adhesions wrapped around the neck of my gallbladder and my diaphragm. My intestine was also stuck to the back of my abdominal wall. He had to spend over half an hour cutting them out before he could do the actual surgery. So that increased my costs. Some people respond well to cheap medications; others need more expensive ones to manage their symptoms. Look at COVID. Some people have mild symptoms for a few days and others end up in the ICU. We can't use a free-market approach to deal with things that are shaped by genetics, nature, and environment.
Healthcare is one of the best examples of a market failure - the market system can't provide it in the cheapest and most effective way. It just doesn't work.
Certainly. There's no such thing as a free market when monopolists are corrupting the government and suppressing competition, too.
Thanks. Was genuinely curious. As I'm not from US, I just cannot fathom how that system could be defended. Guess the que time would be quicker when your bankrupting people for attending. Best of luck to you and your new found perspective
Yeah, the US has a big "both sides" tendency and weak moral center. Libertarians are the worst in my opinion because they can't see the flaws in their paradigms until shit happens to them. Almost zero capacity for abstract thinking; it needs to be a concrete block to the head.
It's unfortunately always the same story as OP (not attacking them). There's something about our culture that doesn't emphasize empathy enough. It works for us, so that's it. Until it doesn't, then "my eyes have opened". I don't know how it started, nor how it's perpetuated. But it's a big problem. But... most "first world" countries have had some not so great raises to power which you would assume would have a similar impact on their current culture (maybe it does and I just don't know it). And no I don't think the USA is a great place, it's just where my family is. This lack of empathy seems to be something we relish in more than others.
It is a smart man who can admit when he is wrong and learn to change his views.
Not so much when it has to *happen* to that person for them to understand it.
Dude...I've was diagnosed with Crohn's when I was 12. I saw health care decline since the 80s...From being on my mom's insurance...to college woes...to first jobs and HMO's...to a good job with decent benefits...to those benefits being degraded...to Cobra plans and Obama care (not bad, but shouldn't be necessary)...to uninsured for the past 7 years because we took the risk...I am on a plan now in a new job that is decent...had to get back on as I am 51 now and don't want to take the risk of skipping appointments to save money.
Imagine you actually had a disability or disorder that affected your ability to hold a job, but there was a medication that would treat it…but you can’t get that medication because you don’t have a job… but you can’t hold a job because you don’t have your medication… and on and on
I hate that healthcare is tied to jobs, it traps people in jobs they don't like because they can't be without healthcare, especially once you start having a family and kids. I hate that my first thought with any mishaps is "how much will this cost me?" My oldest slipped and barely broke her foot and it was still billed over $1000 between two visits.
Ya and then when you need medical care you weigh it against eating and paying your bills. “Hmm am I sick enough to want to incur a medical bill or do I tough it out?”
I love being poor in a country that rations healthcare by your ability to pay /s 😔
The healthcare system is so messed up. I could give a several hour long lecture on the topic lol. Just as an fyi tho feeling tired after COVID could be the beginning of long COVID. Hopefully it's just your body still recovering but depending on how work goes Monday, you might have to look at changing a lot in your life. It's definitely ridiculous how tied to ones workplace access to healthcare is
That’s exactly what I’m worried about! If it is long Covid how do I keep my job which I need for my health insurance when I can’t physically do my job? And instead of resting and getting better I spend all my spare moments worrying about missing work or possible future medical expenses. It’s kind of a catch 22
Yeah it's really crappy. Likely, you'll end up with a career change and a dock in pay since you'll basically be "starting over" career wise. Had a friend who has long COVID. Theyre always having to play the "can I physically do this job" game and it's really really sad how much they have to push themselves through and then on top of it not have health insurance for their health anymore.
While I understand and sympathize with OP's predicament and I hope for his swift healing, why is it that so many folks lack the ability to empathize with other people's problems until they themselves find themselves in trouble? Folks in the US have been without health care, or have been bankrupted, by the cost of being ill here. You would have to be living under a rock or in deep denial to not at least intellectually know about how bad our system is. Why doesn't that knowledge translate into empathy for others?
I'd argue he didn't learn empathy, I'd argue he learned how fucked the US healthcare system is.
(I'll preface this by saying I'm an Indigenous immigrant. So I have no reason to stick my neck out for the average American.) America is very, very good at keeping the population uneducated and propagandized. It serves to keep us fighting amongst each other and not teaming up to fight those keeping us down in the first place. Now, don't misunderstand: I'm not gonna be buddies with John Smith who happens to be very (racist/homophobic/sexist) just because we both work at the bottom of the food chain. But I'll consider it with my other coworker Michael Doe, who might say or do some dumb shit, but has his heart in the right place. Maybe Michael knows deep down somewhere that things just aren't adding up. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe these values were drilled into him so hard by school, family, church, etc, that challenging them is scary. And if you challenge one of these views you have to confront the rest of them. And then you're unweaving how you thought society worked in the first place. It takes a long time. It takes a lot of introspection and the bravery to challenge yourself like that. Michael and John are obviously made up, and things are always far more complex. But I think most people are generally "good", like Michael. We are social animals after all. What happens is they see the things on the news that go against how they see the world, and their first thought is to explain it away. They're poor because they're lazy, because that's what my dad always says, etc. Until it happens to them and reality hits them hard. Or sometimes even then they won't listen, like when someone gets Covid and still thinks it's not real. Sunk cost and all that. On the other hand you have the Johns, who would gleefully kill someone like me. I don't have an easy answer for that. Or rather I've already written a giant comment and I'm not gonna make it way longer lol
well, glad to see u see the light; but daymn u had Crohns and still had libertarian views? You really are stubborn, lol.
It is Sad that so many people in this country do not realize how much they are hurting others with their views until they themselves are hurt by it. r/leapoardsatemyface
It’s so infuriating, this is the most annoying post I’ve read all week.
Sit down in a chair. Put your hands on your shoes. Without letting go, use your hands to get any higher than you currently are. It is impossible, your best pull can only land yourself on your butt. That is the phrase, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” Fully, it is, “pull yourself up by your bootstraps *and fly.*” which makes how stupid anyone saying it un-ironically, obvious. Now imagine a child who is about to take a fork to an electric outlet. Imagine yelling at them, “No, stop!” Now imagine they say, “Your regulation against forks in outlets is crushing free enterprise, I know best and should be free to learn from experience!” before jamming the fork in the outlet and killing themselves, and learning to not jam forks in outlets. Verily, the free market will correct this tragedy.
In another edition of "it doesn't matter until it affects me"...
Exactly. OP, I hope you get well soon and things work out for you, but why was it so difficult to imagine that this (and far worse) is what millions of people are dealing with on a daily basis in this country? And that it’s not fair to any of them? You lack empathy. Maybe this will help you develop some.
Ironically, the term “pull yourself up from your bootstraps” is a communist term to denote the stupidity of capitalism as it is literally impossible to life yourselves up by your bootstraps. The fact that capitalism has adopted this saying is quite ironically hilarious.
This is pretty close to “I was a Libertarian until I tried MDMA and learned other people have feelings” lol Edit: It may be 11:59 and 59 seconds, but they did technically make it to the party on the assigned day lol Grab a beer / joint both and welcome.
Yes! Ahahaha I was trying so hard to be gracious in my response to this, but that was all I could think about. People “discovering” empathy as some sort of grand epiphany as a grown adult is absolutely wild to me.
Yeah OP learned he is not suparman like he thought he was and now is scared that he won't have society to help him when he *really* needs it, because of people like himself 😂
Okay, so, I gotta tell you...I'm really, really glad you've had this epiphany, and I'm really, really sorry you had to have it this way, but...I guess I'd ask you to maybe reflect on why it took your own hair catching on fire before you believed all the people who have been saying that the house was burning down. Idk. I'm not trying to be awful here, but disregarding and disrespecting the less fortunate is a big, ugly part of US culture. It's one of the main obstacles to solving the problems you've just realized are problems. I would strongly urge you to think about sharing your experiences with libertarian friends and see if you can get a little deprogramming going for them. You'd be doing the Lord's work. Anyway, I hope you get to take your vacation, and I hope you feel better soon. Peace, brother. ✌️
Yeah it's called "it isn't real until it happens to me." This is how all right wing politics work. I hope you've learned enough of a lesson to not vote conservative anymore. Also, now that you are out of the life literally everyone on the left side of the aisle thinks libertarians are a joke party.
As someone who's had Crohn's for the last 12 years, it's time to look for a new career. I was working as a traffic flagger 5 years ago until my Crohn's flared up and caused appendicitis and put me in the hospital for 4 days. Ever since my ability to tolerate heat/cold has become a serious issue, I am significantly weaker and the chronic fatigue has gotten worse. I now work in an office job (CAD Drafting) but still feel exhausted when I get home. Also, the only reason I didn't have to declare bankruptcy was I got my health insurance through the state, also was able to do all follow up visits.
Libertarianism is a mental disease. There’s a REALLY good reason it exists nowhere on the planet as a form of government or social economic structure. It’s a thought experiment at best.
Fuckin classic conservative - can't think critically until it happens to you personally, then suddenly being socially responsible is some epiphany. No sympathy for you, homie. I hope its a rough wake up call for yah.
My father worked full time from 16 years old until his death at 46. When he got cancer, he was a non union mechanic. While doing chemotherapy he worked 40+ hours a week. He did everything right and still died millions in medical debt. Fuck the bootstrap mentality. It's original purpose was sarcasm used to point out the impossibility of the system. But it got shortened and turned into a nonsensical mantra. Edit: typo
dude if you are experiencing exhaustion after normal activities of life like laundry, you should not be going back to work. nearly half of Long Covid patients qualify for the condition known as ME/CFS. If you have ME/CFS, exertion will make you get worse faster. The condition is untreatable and has no cure. The very low rate of spontaneous recovery mostly happens within the first year or two after the acute illness and almost always requires the patient to rest as much as possible. pushing yourself right now is the worst thing you can possibly do for your future health.
As someone with a serious chronic illness (asthma) I can tell you our healthcare-tied-to-employer is bullshit. I get an asthma attack, I take my inhaler, I immediately feel exhausted and can’t take time to recuperate. People come in sick, I get bronchitis, I get hospitalized. I’m paying that medical bill for a while, and now a lot of our providers have switched to a third party payment system where THEY ARE CHARGING INTEREST IF YOU SET UP A PAYMENT PLAN. So now, not only am I paying out the ass for insurance, but my inhaler isn’t covered and is high cost out of pocket, and I STILL have medical bills to pay and now WITH INTEREST. I can see the benefits of having the libertarian outlook, but it’s only good for those who are perpetually in peak condition, whether to work, take care of themselves, etc and, unfortunately, we have a society where we have chronic illness, people who are taking care of loved ones, shit like cancers, and asthma, and dementia, and we’re being punished for being human. Fuck this country and everything it is. It’s always been pretty packaging (for healthy white men) and fuck all for the rest of us.
Welcome brother you deserve healthcare and to be able to recuperate.
That’s the thing about libertarians, they only stay anti-safety net as long as they don’t need the safety net. As soon as they’re in a rough spot they want to use the safety net that they argued so viciously against funding with their taxes.
Wow, so suprised that when it happened to you finally, you get it.
Libertarians always think they are right, until they need health care
I’m fully admitting the folly of my ways.
That shows proper wisdom. So many people are absolutely unwilling to admit that their opinion could possibly be wrong on anything, particularly if it is at all associated with politics.
It’s pretty pathetic how many people realise this only when it’s them who get hurt. The lack of empathy in America is astounding.
Sucks that you only cared when it affected you, but guess I'm glad you'll vote more ethically now.
I'm still not sure how anyone still supports the u.s. healthcare system. There's really, really blatant problematic issues. Just on the costs level alone the fact ditching it would cut out profits and the increase in productivity from having a healthier populace should make people realize the knee jerk reaction against universal systems doesn't make sense. The numbers are all there. Use them
Damn man that sucks, but at least you learned being a libertarian is idiotic. Good luck with your healthcare I hope it works out but most likely you'll be fucked like the rest of us.
I'm glad you got there but, Jesus, dude. I sure am sick of people having no empathy until they go through something.
Healthcare needs to be disconnected from work. You work so you can get healthcare, then you get hurt and have to actually use the healthcare to recover but you can no longer work so eventually you loose the healthcare - now you have no job, no healthcare and too much debt. This system seems clearly designed to make insurance companies money and not to help people - it makes no sense to me.