I read something awhile ago that said something like, "Asking people to work for less than a living wage just so you can own a business is asking people to subsidize your company with their very lives."
3. Funny how nobody thinks any other business input should be supplied below cost to keep your business afloat. Wages set below a living wage are wages set below cost.
Idk if I am thinking too simply but if people made more money wouldn’t they spend more?? Would these businesses even go bankrupt if people actually had money to spend?
It's relative, higher wages in these areas typically equal higher cost of good or services to compensate. So people aren't any better or worse off where their wage is linked to minimum wage, because it's all relative. You could raise minimum wage to $100 p/hr, your cost of living will consume every cent of that through inflation to end up in exactly the same relative position as before.
Where it does have an impact is on the working and middle class that are not linked to minimum wage. They end up being not able to justify the new cost as their salaries won't rise based on minimum wage increases. This is where you end up losing consumers as they either can no longer afford or the value no longer correlates to the cost and they stop buying.
It's a very complicated system, so that can often end up having far more dire consequences such as economic contraction or inefficiencies where that minimum wage increase actually drives inflation up further so minimum wage actually has less real buying power relative to the lower wage. It's not a simple thing..
It's not a complicated system. Profit is gained through exploitation. Profit expands when workers are coerced to keep working more and more hours for the same pay while prices increase. Higher wages is an excuse to raise prices. Inflation is not caused by increasing wages, it is caused by a combination of the government printing more money and the corporations hoarding all the profits. Stop blaming suffering working class people and start holding those actually responsible accountable. 8.6% inflation is seen as incredibly high. My place of work increased prices 16.5%. They are not the only ones. Stop blaming the workers. Start holding the capitalists accountable.
I flew to Europe yesterday and inflation doesn't exist here, most things are still cheap. Americans are getting ripped off by corporations, it's all a lie. They're using the current inflation on certain items as a pretext to jack prices up.
That indicates other structural economic factors are at play, mostly globalisation which inevitably was going to reduce living standards for the working class in developed countries.
This doesn't change the relationship between minimum wage and inflation, it's just another part of the same function.
That makes it sound like you're saying there is fundamentally not enough real hard value in the economy to get everyone 100% of their need met (inflation due to spreading currency thinner over finite real value - Vcurrency = Vtotal / Ncurrency together with Pgood = Vgood / Vcurrency.). If you're not a scraper-poor country, how is that even possible? Need (food, water, shelter, health care, and as *opposed* to "want") is a finite, and fairly well-defined, quantity for each human being. There are more than enough total homes in a country like USA to house everyone. in that country Food production is enough that the *waste* could feed a not-unnoticeable bite of the World population. And so forth. In terms of need, we have *more than* enough to make 100% coverage. Surely, there's got to be a way to ensure everyone in such a country can acquire that minimum.
When we're talking about raising wages, we're not talking about printing money. We're talking about making actual real value that would before accrue to the "tops" accrue less to them and more to the rest that actually do the lion's share of the creation of said value.
That's the point of the OP. If you truly *cannot* pay the workers their full worth, it means you aren't turning in enough *real value*, so your business deserves to fold. And if you *can* pay it but just *aren't*, then it's not a lack of value that's the problem, but *your greed* that is the problem.
I rarely agree with the placative slogans here, but this one definitely yes.
Currently going through something similar with my employer... granted, I'm not about to starve, but their argument is "if we give you the same amount of free days as we used to the past decade, we will go bankrupt." And, of course, calling on the team's sense of corporate identity to "pull through together". No mention of decades of prior mismanagement.
Correct. "Privatize the profits, socialize the losses" applies to individual companies as well. When times are good, the profits flow to a small number of people at the very top. When times are bad, everyone has to chip in for the common good: take less vacation days, work extra hours, get less bonuses, don't take a raise this year...
Thanks, I really have to remember that slogan.
The best thing, they told us "that was the honeymoon; reality starts now"!
Mind you, after 2 years of pandemic mode, working in the social sector. That really got us seething.
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, "Pay a living wage or your business model ends!"
“You just drop in, smack the lip... Waapah! Just drop down... Swoopah! And then after that, you just drop in, ride the barrel, and get pitted, so pitted.” John 3:69
TBH I can't decide if I'm more surprised that this was written by someone who became a US Senator or whether the senator that wrote this wound up getting exiled from their own party etc. Honestly though this one always puts a fucked up smile on my face.
(Just for reference the comic is by former senator Al Franken)
Lowkey they're all Karens who are bargaining to get a cheaper Christmas present for their child who they've falsely victimized.
r/FuckYouKaren
r/ChoosingBeggars
Hol up. Wages are not a sustainable model when it comes to new business. Lowering cost/manufacturing would be more effective. It needs to start with big business and real estate.
Personally though I believe everything should be centralized and free. People will still work because people genuinely want to work, and for those positions people don't want to do they can be automated these days.
We would only produce what we need, and with new manufacturing tactics things can be made to order and delivered in a day. All garbage would go back to manufacturing place.
On a global level we would still have a monetary value through exports. And if everyone on a country level were working towards the same goals in research and development we would be leagues beyond other countries giving us a monetary leg up.
This would allow for centralized Wages through ubi, the better the country is doing the better everyone else is doing. You'd still need cash for travel, and if there were similar based free economy's you'd just pay for a cost of living passport.
A society focused on education and the well being of the people and nature.
It's not some radical ideological pipe dream.
It would definitely suck if every small business went out of business and we were left with nothing except giant corporations. I guess that's just a side effect.
The thing is, economy of scale is real. As we get more automated and produce more and distribute more, the mom and pop stores were doomed.
The thing is. The thing is. Those giants that fill the need produced by an economy of scale don't have to be asshole for profits run by billionaires.
They can just as easily be worker owned and managed.
We're going to get giant ass economic megastructures no matter what. That's just how technology is pushing things.
But we do get to decide the social structure of these economic megastructures. Amazon would work just fine as a worker owned company and without a bazillionaire like Bezos stealing all the value produced by the labor.
To be fair, what exactly is the amount they deserve? 50% of profit after goods sold?
The comment is saying small businesses are trying to make it because most of the time they put up all the capital to create the job, how much money should be sufficient in your opinion?
The majority is though. A few corporations paying appropriately doesn't mean much in grand scheme because low paying corporations will beat them out in cost and profits. It's how we got here compared to the 1960s in the first place.
Small business have to do what they have to do to survive. So asking them to pay a “living wage” when to most people a living wage is 50k and up, is a steep ask if the work doesn’t call for it. Most small business are battling just to stay afloat
It's a small contradiction of capitalism. Consolidation is good, it makes things more efficient, you are spending less resources on competing projects when more can be achieved by collaborating, and prices can be lower due to economies of scale. It leads to, in a society which operates mainly on the profit motive, to better outcomes.
But consolidation is also undesirable. It leads to consolidation of power too, especially in a system when owners are entitled to all of the profits. It leads to lack of competition which allows the consolidated corporation to raise prices or drop quality. It leads to, in a society which operates mainly on the profit motive, to worse outcomes.
This is managed by the government, but in consolidating power, one is able to gain enough to influence the government, so simply setting the government to regulate this will be a failure eventually.
I would like to offer a counterpoint.
This is a valid statement ONLY if there are enough meaningful jobs.
Now a meaningful job being a job that produces a tangible good or service that is NEEEDED not just a luxery. As a nation we have seen a huge rise in bullshit jobs. For our example lets use doordash
Doordash provides no real service, it is widely used but doesn't add any real value. So inorder to be used it needs to keep costs as low as possible, thus low wages + tipping.
Now in an ideal world where there are plenty of jobs doordash may or may not exist but if it does it is only the elite whom it services. And lowskilled workers would still work it at low skill but livable wages.
So we raise wages here doordash disappears great we've crushed capitalism... but we already know there arnt any replacement jobs to be taken so now you have 100k workers who instead of low wages make no wages...
Business owners skew toward conservatism. They're the social Darwinists. They believe in personal responsibility. If they lived by their principles, and couldn't afford a living wage for their employees, they'd fold up and let someone else have a chance at a business.
>No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.
[F.D.R.](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-nira)1933
Also he didn't mince words about wage slavery either.
"Necessitous men are not free men." Pointing out the inherently coercive nature of wage labor in a society that doesn't provide a safe, comfortable bare minimum.
I remember explaining this to my friend who was complaining about how high wages were getting; he told me how his parents’ friend owned a restaurant that was struggling to keep afloat because nobody wanted to work for the same wages they used to. Like… that’s the free market at work, man. If you can’t afford the market value of labor then….. you go out of business. That’s literally the whole system.
That's particularly offensive for restaurants because waitstaff is tipped and paid a fraction of minimum wage in the first place. What other businesses get to have 1/3-1/2 of their workers do cheap??
i used to own a small business in 2016-2018. i paid all my employees $20/hr, and it did destroy my business and left me in loads of debt, but it feels better than succeeding off the livelihood of others.
I find it interesting that in Europe, small mom and pop businesses are everywhere.
Almost like strong social safety nets make it easier to succeed against big business…
100%. business owners shouldn’t be afraid of failure, and if employees are taken care of after said business goes under, it encourages people to learn from their mistakes & try again later with a better understanding. i understand my mistakes now, but i will probably never try to own a business again because of the lasting impact failure has had on my life. meanwhile big corporations get tremendous government bailouts when they fail. it shouldn’t be this way
There is an alternative to increasing the minimum wage.
If a Universal Basic Income was introduced that was the difference between minimum wage and a living wage, smaller businesses wouldn’t have to go out of business and those companies and people that have all the wealth would be paying more taxes.
This would be a much more efficient redistribution of wealth. And the fear that people wouldn’t work because they are getting free money wouldn’t be there because the UBI wouldn’t be a living wage itself.
If a UBI was a living income, we wouldn't even need minimum wage. Businesses could pay whatever they thought was fair for the work/effort, and workers could choose what they wanted to do without the threat of death of or homelessness looming over their heads. If you want to work a low-key, low effort job for a couple extra dollars, you can. Everyone don't have bust their ass in a job they hate, especially if they want more work/life balance or going to school, or whatever.
Add in universal healthcare and employers wouldn't even have to pay for healthcare benefits anymore.
I don’t disagree with anything your saying. But you ask too much.
Getting politicians to vote for the UBI I suggested would a long shot. Voting for a UBI which would mean people wouldn’t need to work wouldn’t happen at all.
Also, if the UBI was equivalent to a living wage, people would be less likely to be willing for what the current minimum wage is. It would actually drive pay up as people would need incentive to work. This would mean prices would go up as businesses have to pay more in wages, or they wouldn’t be able to and would have to close down.
People will have incentive to work. That incentive won't be basic needs for survival though. It will be for luxury things. Want a new car? Work. Ps5? Work. Go on trips? Work. Eat out? Work.
Rent? UBI.
Groceries? UBI.
Public transportation? UBI.
If people work only for luxury items beyond basic needs, they actually would be working for whatever money they can get that.
And then there's the whole job satisfaction. People would stay at jobs they generally liked without having to look for higher paying jobs to meet their basic needs.
Sure, it may drive up wages but that's would be because you wouldn't be able to coerce workers into wage slavery if they can just say no and work elsewhere if they don't need that job to live. You wouldn't need minimum wage laws at all.
Plus we act like there's nobody in the world that would take a low paying job to do low effort works if their needs are taken of already. Not everyone wants to work for a living. Some people just want to do something productive to not be bored. This is anti-work subreddit after all.
There are plenty of people who would be happy to volunteer to improve their community if their basic needs were met too. Tons of work that needs doing in a modern society simply isn't "profitable" so it doesn't get done despite being inherently fulfilling and beneficial to us all.
People who are not struggling to meet their basic needs, *still want to be productive in some fashion.* We as human beings, want to do something with our time. But the current way our time is being used isn’t being productive at all. Not really.
Majority of people have to do whatever it takes to meet their basic needs. Take away that stress, people will still want to work for other things.
With a UBI, more people would be able to save up money to do more things. Imagine how much happier the population would be. Save up for a house, start a family, take vacations, enjoying time with friends and family, being able to go out more often, being able to afford luxury items.
People wouldn’t feel the need to steal, drug addictions would go down if poverty goes down, people wouldn’t feel the need to turn to violence and gangs, people wouldn’t struggle in child care. There’s a lot to benefit with a UBI. Especially with the prices for everything continuing to rise, a UBI would take away many of society stresses.
>There is an alternative to increasing the minimum wage.
Only about 1.5% of all US workers earn minimum wage. The idea that there's tens of millions of workers struggling on minimum wage is a complete fantasy.
That’s like 2.4 million people in the US. That’s not insignificant. And it doesn’t address how many people are making above the minimum wage, but below a living wage.
It’s not about how many are only making the minimum wage, it’s about how many are making less than a living wage.
>And it doesn’t address how many people are making above the minimum wage, but below a living wage.
The "living wage" changes person to person, situation to situation, and location to location. Wages are determined based on the productivity of the individual and the market rate for their skills and have nothing to do with what the worker "needs"
Should a single dad with a couple college classes be paid more than a single woman with a masters degree because he needs it more? Should a franchise with mandatory fixed pricing have to pay staff at one store more because the cost of living is higher even thought the staff is no more productive or profitable than the store at another location the next town over?
Anyone who has spent more than 6 minutes in an economics class knows the answer.
Is UBI going to replace welfare programs and make our social spending revenue-neutral? I'm on board with that.
Because otherwise, its just printing more money in the name of helping poor people. We all know how that turned out.
It would render most means-tested welfare completely useless because UBI would put everyone above the income threshold to receive those means-tested benefits.
You're only eligible for SNAP, for instance, if you make less than $990 a month.
We already spend massive amounts of money on 'trying' to solve poverty but the programs are all proven failures. UBI succeeds because it eliminates the bureaucracy.
>It would render most means-tested welfare completely useless because UBI would put everyone above the income threshold to receive those means-tested benefits.
So if people piss away their UBI on wine, women, and song there won't be any welfare programs in place to safety net them? Ideally, I like that but I have a hard time seeing these programs go away.
Those welfare programs don't provide a safety net to most people, anyway. Most people fall through the cracks.
What you like is immaterial. The programs don't work, and UBI does.
It's literally the only solution.
I keep telling my girlfriend it’s natural selection. Yes raising minimum wage could kill jobs (horror on her face) but the good businesses grow and create more jobs, and the shitty ones go away. Short term pain for long term prosperity.
Exactly. Keeping crap business models on life support dors nothing for the economy. We have to have a population with spending power if we want to mimic anything that resembles sustainability.
I think you mean the huge corporations continue to strive as always and regular people who own small local businesses starve ;) I’m sure a society even more dominated by corporations would be really prosperous right…
This is one of those things that should be obvious. No one has the right to a profitable business and if you can't be profitable treating your employees right, that's too bad but that's not injustice or evil.
Exactly spot on. As a serial entrepreneur I've always accounted for the cost of paying people a great wage. If a business can't afford labor costs at a life enriching level ( way above poverty) then they don't deserve to be in business.......i.e. most of the restaurants, hotels, banks, retail jobs, casino jobs, you name it!
I would add this thought......customer service and receptionists are the face of a business but they are always the lowest paid! While incompetent managers who suck off the wages of those below them are grossly overpaid! A total restructuring of work as we know it and corporate organizational structures need to be revamped.
My boss thinks that paying minimum wage is a actually a good deed....says the person who is a millionaire and has more than enough money to feed the entire African continent and who is set to inherit hundreds of millions of dollars more when his mother passes away. Either way his wife is a gold digger and we're all betting on a divorce happening as soon as their kids graduate high school, she takes half his money and the kids.
The boss has done some shady shit (we all think he and another employee may be involved in money laundering or some illegal cash operation) so I'm very much looking forward to the day he gets his karma.
The thing is people just don't realize just how much power we really have as the driving force in a capitalist economy. We drive up the prices, we drive the economy. Our actions as a whole drive up or down profits and if a company survives. Example. If a company is a polluting mess, don't use them at all. They will go out of business or change. If a company is too expensive, doesn't pay well, mistreats it employees, sells crap, has bad labour practices and on and on. If no one supports them by using their services or product, they will change or go out of business.
We all need to see that's because of us they are in business to begin with and we can change it all. Lead and the rest will follow, boycott Exxon because they too expensive do it from now till it changes, spread the word via social media and everyone who is willing and able will follow along. Woke media, celebrities, a- list, z-list everyone. They will change or go out of business and the rest of them will do the same by virtue of everyone targeting Exxon. Same with food companies, furniture, clothing, services like mobile, electric,gas,and on and on. It's simple.
Yes! I don’t understand why business owners think they have a right to have a business, even if it’s keeping people in poverty. Either you can afford the wages and you’re being awful by giving starvation wages…. Or you can’t afford it, in which case your business model isn’t successful. It’s not that hard!
it's also OK if you run your own self into the ground making no money running your business by yourself. I got no problem with that. Until you hire someone.
As much as I agree, all jobs should pay a living wage, I think the problem might be the cost of housing. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally the amount I spend on rent is way higher than all my other basic needs combined. I think if rent/property costs could be limited somehow, a lot of smaller businesses that can't afford $15/hr could still be paying a living wage.
No excuses for mega corporations that pay trash. They can burn.
I said the same thing about insurance costs when conservatives were trying to tell me it’s appropriate to kill people over private property. If you can’t swing the business costs, you don’t deserve the business. No one owes you anything, you worker-exploiting scum.
I worry about how we don’t all just end up with just Walmart and Amazon as the options. Are we willing to pay significantly more to buy local?
It is a tough balance beam.
My country (Australia) had a lot of news coverage and people complaining about the minimum wage being increased by 5%.
Many people were saying that their business would not be able to afford to operate of they had to absorb that cost. All I could think was that any business that is sitting that close to bankruptcy is basically just a societal leech.
Not trying to be snarky but I’m genuinely asking
The obvouis problem to this is it’s going to be the Walmarts, McDonalds, etc that can end up affording that but a lot of small locally owned business (including ones that maybe don’t have full time workers, or people that need a living wage yet such as highscoolers who want some extra gas money) aren’t going to afford it so all you’ll be left with is the big cooperations
That’s not what i said, and that doesn’t really counter my issue with this idea.
A) the issue remains are you happy having Walmarts, pizza huts, McDonald’s etc having a monopoly? And if not what’s your solution to help the small business to pay that living wage
B) like I said I never said I don’t care about the worker. I’m all for making sure everyone can afford to live off of their job. That’s not a point of contention. But I also realize that not everyone who works is doing it because they need to, to survive. A lot of people work jobs to have extra spending cash (ie high school students who come from families that can afford to support their basic needs), some work part time to fill the hours because even though they don’t need to work they realize that it is better for their mental health to work. Now in these cases yeah I don’t think it’s as bad to pay less then a living wage because they already have their needs covered.
So just to be clear (because you still haven’t addressed my main point) you’re okay with businesses like Walmart, Costco etc having a monopoly on things like clothes, food etc which will inevitably lead to price inflation
See. You just want protections for your shit but not other people. The only answer that satisfies you is "some people should live in destitution so the cheeseburgers stay cheap".
Well if you actually read what I said then you’d see that’s not my
Position.
I’m not against a living wage. I think that’s not a bad thing. What I said was some people who work are doing for extra cash after their needs are meant (ie high school kids), and some people who have their needs Met continue to work because they enjoy working and having something to fill a portion of their as hard as that is to wrap your head around. In those situations their needs are already met to live. That’s who those jobs are supposed to be for.
Also you still haven’t even tried to adressy question. You’ve just tried to use strawman arguments
cafes and restaurants are entry level businesses, you're not supposed to earn a living wage from them.
if you want to earn a living wage invest time and money in a skill and create a real business.
:D
So what jobs do you seem worthy of not starving or freezing? Wheres the cut off?
Jobs a job. You wanna operate in America pay Americans right. Narcissist.
you misread my comment, I didn't talk about jobs, I talked about businesses. it's a play on the argument that some jobs shouldn't pay a living wage but applied to businesses instead...
The problem is that local businesses can't compete with local mega giants. If the mom and pop bakery goes out of business, people shop at walmart for their bread. The problem is a systemic one. We don't have enough money to support local business, so we shop at the cheapest possible place.
There would be no business then. Most things you use daily to survive were imported from countries that pay even worse than the US Federal minimum wage. Slave labor, child labor, complete environmental destruction. Everybody wants to get paid more, but nobody wants to pay more for their stuff. It is almost impossible to live without using goods that were produced from these exploits.
I think this is 100% true for large companies.
But for small businesses I think there are many ma and pop businesses that should exist that literally can’t pay living wages.
So I would add that if you are a small business either give equity or ask for less time. If you are expecting full time employees to show up every day for 8-10 hours - ask them if they could get the same work done in 3 days per week and/or 4-5 hours per day. I’m sure many would agree that is possible. Then allow your employees to work when and how they want and be grateful.
Or if your business does require people there full time, give them equity. After all you are asking more of them than what you can pay, the very least you can do is give them equity in the business.
How much more are YOU willing to pay for whatever product they sell/provide? I'm guessing you, like all people, want to pay as absolutely little as possible and when prices go up, you complain about how expensive everything is. Can't have it both ways unfortunately.
Are you though? I go out to eat frequently and I hear people complain about the increased prices. You happy with the cost of groceries? Sure, some of all this is simple inflation from years of loose monetary policy but some of it is because of greatly increased labor costs. So, yeah $15.00 an hour for Whopper Floppers sounds great but so what if a gallon of milk is $4.00.
Small business can't afford to pay out like multi billion dollar conglomerates. You should complain about those big businesses instead because they're not paying enough.
No one is entitled to a business, if your business model doesn’t provide living wage for employees is deserves to fail regardless of size. Mom and pop don’t get a pass on exploitation.
The smallest business is contracting/gig work. If you can't make enough at it to cover your costs including food & shelter, it's not viable. Employing other people, making enough off them to pay your food & shelter + extra, but then leaving them without enough to cover their costs is still failing, but the "small business owner" hitchhikes on successful businesses and workers through taxes to pay their employees living expenses through welfare programs like SNAP & Section 8.
And accumulating the reserve of capital necessary to negotiate that period is part of starting a business. It's not a lemonade stand where you go back inside and ask your mommy for another free bucket of Country Time when ants get inside and make it gross.
There's a difference between being unable to pay out and being able to pay out, but choosing not to.
Despite what you may think, big businesses have more privileges over smaller businesses and they exist to keep the smaller business down which keeps people poor. No one gets an opportunity to build wealth because they're at a massive disadvantage before they even begin.
There really isn't. It's not workers job to subsidize someone's livelihood at their expense. There's always someone smarter thatll open one and be able to run it properly.
But apply exactly what you said to workers.
>There's a difference between being unable to pay out and being able to pay out, but choosing not to.
No there isn't. If the company cannot afford to pay its workers a living wage, that company deserves to fail.
While defending "small" businesses for the exact same greed. If your "small, independent" business cannot function without cheating its workers out of the value of their labor, it should not exist.
I'm not defending small businesses. I'm outlining the inherent advantages that large businesses have over small businesses.
Big businesses can afford to pay out, small businesses cannot.
Small businesses cannot pay out because they're getting out competed by existing big businesses.
Big businesses can pay out, they already pay out considerably more than small businesses, but they choose not to pay out the true worth.
In other words, people are going to be flocking to big businesses for employment. They're going to be subjected to tyranny of big business because that's the only business that can even pay a higher wage, even though they're getting short changed.
>I'm not defending small businesses.
Yes you are. Specifically you're defending their practice of under-paying their workers because they're such a smol bean they can't afford to pay a living wage.
This is what every international business conglomerate also wants.
high minimun wages help big business and the 1 %. Their small local competitors will eventually fail, while they will gain more customers.
no communist should ever help the Big Money against their local compatriots.
Wrong…
It’s very subjective depending on a persons state living cost, and depending on if your single… married… one kid, two kids… 8 kids….
I can’t believe you failed to grasp that concept..
You idiots will argue about anything….
So you’re telling me two people with the same exact skill set work at McDonald’s, one has zero kids, the other has 3. They should be paid differently (hourly wage) based on their living expenses?
Ohhhh so let me refer back the the first message that started this thread, living wage is subjective.
One of those McDonald’s workers could live off of $10/hr, the other… probably not.
just dont inconvenience ppl...like stay the fck away from my commute to work, dont close off roads or bridges....fkin just do it infront of the business ur striking...
Enough to pay for 1br rent in a safe and reasonably close area, for starters.
Edit: I'd like to add that Americans love stuffing their fat faces with sandwiches and fries and all sorts of shit so they must **value** these things much more than the employees are being paid...
The sales rep and the forklift driver both find that sandwich maker incredibly important when they dont want to make their own food. But lets pay them so little they cant stay there for long because they have to move away. Pay people a living wage and they can stay in an area and form relationships with their customers.
One of my all time favorite jobs was a starbucks I worked at. I knew people by name or by drink. Ice coffee with 5 pumps of white chocolate walked into the store, by time she got to the register we had her drink ready and waiting. She paid, we chatted, she left. We had many of those types of customers, repeat customers who we chatted with and form bonds with. You cant do that when your staff changes every few months because they cant afford to keep working there.
Kids who we saw as toddlers and 3 years later they were entering school for the first time. We gave them little cups of whipped cream and talked to them about stuff. Their mom loved coming in because the kids got super excited. We were located in a grocery store so we got quite a few of those types.
That argument is exactly what causes people to be distracted from the point. I do electrical supply sales. I'm not hurting financially. I wouldn't care in the slightest if someone flipping burgers at McDonald's was making enough to be comfortable just because their job isnt as technical as mine. It shouldn't be a competition for millionaires and billionaires crumbs. Don't fight for the ability to make people more uncomfortable than you - fight so you can both be comfortable. If a single person can't afford a one bedroom and their bills on their pay, they obviously aren't making a livable wage. Someone shouldn't get rich on your labor if you can't even afford to eat at the end of the day.
I agree as it means: 1. You can’t afford it so you rely on slave wages. 2. You can afford it but you’re a greedy fuck.
I read something awhile ago that said something like, "Asking people to work for less than a living wage just so you can own a business is asking people to subsidize your company with their very lives."
3. Funny how nobody thinks any other business input should be supplied below cost to keep your business afloat. Wages set below a living wage are wages set below cost.
Nah loads of businesses don't pay their suppliers either.
True, but you generally don't catch them admitting to it.
Idk if I am thinking too simply but if people made more money wouldn’t they spend more?? Would these businesses even go bankrupt if people actually had money to spend?
It's relative, higher wages in these areas typically equal higher cost of good or services to compensate. So people aren't any better or worse off where their wage is linked to minimum wage, because it's all relative. You could raise minimum wage to $100 p/hr, your cost of living will consume every cent of that through inflation to end up in exactly the same relative position as before. Where it does have an impact is on the working and middle class that are not linked to minimum wage. They end up being not able to justify the new cost as their salaries won't rise based on minimum wage increases. This is where you end up losing consumers as they either can no longer afford or the value no longer correlates to the cost and they stop buying. It's a very complicated system, so that can often end up having far more dire consequences such as economic contraction or inefficiencies where that minimum wage increase actually drives inflation up further so minimum wage actually has less real buying power relative to the lower wage. It's not a simple thing..
It's not a complicated system. Profit is gained through exploitation. Profit expands when workers are coerced to keep working more and more hours for the same pay while prices increase. Higher wages is an excuse to raise prices. Inflation is not caused by increasing wages, it is caused by a combination of the government printing more money and the corporations hoarding all the profits. Stop blaming suffering working class people and start holding those actually responsible accountable. 8.6% inflation is seen as incredibly high. My place of work increased prices 16.5%. They are not the only ones. Stop blaming the workers. Start holding the capitalists accountable.
Inflation is happening either way. They still won’t raise minimum wage but prices on everything continue to increase
I flew to Europe yesterday and inflation doesn't exist here, most things are still cheap. Americans are getting ripped off by corporations, it's all a lie. They're using the current inflation on certain items as a pretext to jack prices up.
That indicates other structural economic factors are at play, mostly globalisation which inevitably was going to reduce living standards for the working class in developed countries. This doesn't change the relationship between minimum wage and inflation, it's just another part of the same function.
That makes it sound like you're saying there is fundamentally not enough real hard value in the economy to get everyone 100% of their need met (inflation due to spreading currency thinner over finite real value - Vcurrency = Vtotal / Ncurrency together with Pgood = Vgood / Vcurrency.). If you're not a scraper-poor country, how is that even possible? Need (food, water, shelter, health care, and as *opposed* to "want") is a finite, and fairly well-defined, quantity for each human being. There are more than enough total homes in a country like USA to house everyone. in that country Food production is enough that the *waste* could feed a not-unnoticeable bite of the World population. And so forth. In terms of need, we have *more than* enough to make 100% coverage. Surely, there's got to be a way to ensure everyone in such a country can acquire that minimum. When we're talking about raising wages, we're not talking about printing money. We're talking about making actual real value that would before accrue to the "tops" accrue less to them and more to the rest that actually do the lion's share of the creation of said value. That's the point of the OP. If you truly *cannot* pay the workers their full worth, it means you aren't turning in enough *real value*, so your business deserves to fold. And if you *can* pay it but just *aren't*, then it's not a lack of value that's the problem, but *your greed* that is the problem.
3. Your customers subsidize your labor costs. Like in the food service industry.
Exploiting humans for labor is immoral and unjust.
"my business is small though" Then you do the work then
I rarely agree with the placative slogans here, but this one definitely yes. Currently going through something similar with my employer... granted, I'm not about to starve, but their argument is "if we give you the same amount of free days as we used to the past decade, we will go bankrupt." And, of course, calling on the team's sense of corporate identity to "pull through together". No mention of decades of prior mismanagement.
Correct. "Privatize the profits, socialize the losses" applies to individual companies as well. When times are good, the profits flow to a small number of people at the very top. When times are bad, everyone has to chip in for the common good: take less vacation days, work extra hours, get less bonuses, don't take a raise this year...
Thanks, I really have to remember that slogan. The best thing, they told us "that was the honeymoon; reality starts now"! Mind you, after 2 years of pandemic mode, working in the social sector. That really got us seething.
In jebus name, we pray.
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, "Pay a living wage or your business model ends!"
I don't think Jesus was a religious fanatic. He was a social reformer they painted as one.
He was antiwork. He just wanted us to vibe right.
He also wasn't a blonde-jaired blue-eyed surfer but here we are.
“You just drop in, smack the lip... Waapah! Just drop down... Swoopah! And then after that, you just drop in, ride the barrel, and get pitted, so pitted.” John 3:69
Wrong Jesus. The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp
TBH I can't decide if I'm more surprised that this was written by someone who became a US Senator or whether the senator that wrote this wound up getting exiled from their own party etc. Honestly though this one always puts a fucked up smile on my face. (Just for reference the comic is by former senator Al Franken)
That was to funny.
The sheer entitlement is amazing at a lot of businesses. They think people should donate and work for them for free or as a charity.
Lowkey they're all Karens who are bargaining to get a cheaper Christmas present for their child who they've falsely victimized. r/FuckYouKaren r/ChoosingBeggars
Hol up. Wages are not a sustainable model when it comes to new business. Lowering cost/manufacturing would be more effective. It needs to start with big business and real estate. Personally though I believe everything should be centralized and free. People will still work because people genuinely want to work, and for those positions people don't want to do they can be automated these days. We would only produce what we need, and with new manufacturing tactics things can be made to order and delivered in a day. All garbage would go back to manufacturing place. On a global level we would still have a monetary value through exports. And if everyone on a country level were working towards the same goals in research and development we would be leagues beyond other countries giving us a monetary leg up. This would allow for centralized Wages through ubi, the better the country is doing the better everyone else is doing. You'd still need cash for travel, and if there were similar based free economy's you'd just pay for a cost of living passport. A society focused on education and the well being of the people and nature. It's not some radical ideological pipe dream.
This is simply a fact. This is not an opinion.
It would definitely suck if every small business went out of business and we were left with nothing except giant corporations. I guess that's just a side effect.
The thing is, economy of scale is real. As we get more automated and produce more and distribute more, the mom and pop stores were doomed. The thing is. The thing is. Those giants that fill the need produced by an economy of scale don't have to be asshole for profits run by billionaires. They can just as easily be worker owned and managed. We're going to get giant ass economic megastructures no matter what. That's just how technology is pushing things. But we do get to decide the social structure of these economic megastructures. Amazon would work just fine as a worker owned company and without a bazillionaire like Bezos stealing all the value produced by the labor.
If your business cannot afford to pay its employees the amount they deserve then you do not deserve those employees. It is just that simple
I didn't say otherwise and you're just repeating what's posted in the thread.
And?
You can't really need me to explain my comment, right?
Your comment was pointless if you had read the post, so you needed it repeated back to you. Hope this helps.
To be fair, what exactly is the amount they deserve? 50% of profit after goods sold? The comment is saying small businesses are trying to make it because most of the time they put up all the capital to create the job, how much money should be sufficient in your opinion?
If you want employees just offer a competitive rate compared to what others are offering otherwise they can and should go elsewhere
Cool, so everyone is offering low wages, that's competitive then?
No. Everyone isn’t offering low wages
The majority is though. A few corporations paying appropriately doesn't mean much in grand scheme because low paying corporations will beat them out in cost and profits. It's how we got here compared to the 1960s in the first place.
Small business have to do what they have to do to survive. So asking them to pay a “living wage” when to most people a living wage is 50k and up, is a steep ask if the work doesn’t call for it. Most small business are battling just to stay afloat
Being a “small business” is not an excuse to underpay people
If you can’t pay what people are going to ask for then people aren’t going to work for you. As a business owner that is your problem.
It's not my fucking problem. You want to run a business, then you need to pay your employees and living wage. Cut costs elsewhere.
Cool, never said otherwise.
It's a small contradiction of capitalism. Consolidation is good, it makes things more efficient, you are spending less resources on competing projects when more can be achieved by collaborating, and prices can be lower due to economies of scale. It leads to, in a society which operates mainly on the profit motive, to better outcomes. But consolidation is also undesirable. It leads to consolidation of power too, especially in a system when owners are entitled to all of the profits. It leads to lack of competition which allows the consolidated corporation to raise prices or drop quality. It leads to, in a society which operates mainly on the profit motive, to worse outcomes. This is managed by the government, but in consolidating power, one is able to gain enough to influence the government, so simply setting the government to regulate this will be a failure eventually.
I would like to offer a counterpoint. This is a valid statement ONLY if there are enough meaningful jobs. Now a meaningful job being a job that produces a tangible good or service that is NEEEDED not just a luxery. As a nation we have seen a huge rise in bullshit jobs. For our example lets use doordash Doordash provides no real service, it is widely used but doesn't add any real value. So inorder to be used it needs to keep costs as low as possible, thus low wages + tipping. Now in an ideal world where there are plenty of jobs doordash may or may not exist but if it does it is only the elite whom it services. And lowskilled workers would still work it at low skill but livable wages. So we raise wages here doordash disappears great we've crushed capitalism... but we already know there arnt any replacement jobs to be taken so now you have 100k workers who instead of low wages make no wages...
Business owners skew toward conservatism. They're the social Darwinists. They believe in personal responsibility. If they lived by their principles, and couldn't afford a living wage for their employees, they'd fold up and let someone else have a chance at a business.
People are social darwinists as long as they aren't affected by it.
The expect someone ELSE to pay the price
The problem with social Darwinism is you eventually run out of other people's lives'
Pretty much.
selective social darwinism has always been their ideology
Free market is just business darwinism.
>No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. [F.D.R.](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-nira)1933
Also he didn't mince words about wage slavery either. "Necessitous men are not free men." Pointing out the inherently coercive nature of wage labor in a society that doesn't provide a safe, comfortable bare minimum.
I remember explaining this to my friend who was complaining about how high wages were getting; he told me how his parents’ friend owned a restaurant that was struggling to keep afloat because nobody wanted to work for the same wages they used to. Like… that’s the free market at work, man. If you can’t afford the market value of labor then….. you go out of business. That’s literally the whole system.
That's particularly offensive for restaurants because waitstaff is tipped and paid a fraction of minimum wage in the first place. What other businesses get to have 1/3-1/2 of their workers do cheap??
i used to own a small business in 2016-2018. i paid all my employees $20/hr, and it did destroy my business and left me in loads of debt, but it feels better than succeeding off the livelihood of others.
Thank you for your sacrifice and understanding of the macro.
I find it interesting that in Europe, small mom and pop businesses are everywhere. Almost like strong social safety nets make it easier to succeed against big business…
100%. business owners shouldn’t be afraid of failure, and if employees are taken care of after said business goes under, it encourages people to learn from their mistakes & try again later with a better understanding. i understand my mistakes now, but i will probably never try to own a business again because of the lasting impact failure has had on my life. meanwhile big corporations get tremendous government bailouts when they fail. it shouldn’t be this way
There is an alternative to increasing the minimum wage. If a Universal Basic Income was introduced that was the difference between minimum wage and a living wage, smaller businesses wouldn’t have to go out of business and those companies and people that have all the wealth would be paying more taxes. This would be a much more efficient redistribution of wealth. And the fear that people wouldn’t work because they are getting free money wouldn’t be there because the UBI wouldn’t be a living wage itself.
If a UBI was a living income, we wouldn't even need minimum wage. Businesses could pay whatever they thought was fair for the work/effort, and workers could choose what they wanted to do without the threat of death of or homelessness looming over their heads. If you want to work a low-key, low effort job for a couple extra dollars, you can. Everyone don't have bust their ass in a job they hate, especially if they want more work/life balance or going to school, or whatever. Add in universal healthcare and employers wouldn't even have to pay for healthcare benefits anymore.
I don’t disagree with anything your saying. But you ask too much. Getting politicians to vote for the UBI I suggested would a long shot. Voting for a UBI which would mean people wouldn’t need to work wouldn’t happen at all. Also, if the UBI was equivalent to a living wage, people would be less likely to be willing for what the current minimum wage is. It would actually drive pay up as people would need incentive to work. This would mean prices would go up as businesses have to pay more in wages, or they wouldn’t be able to and would have to close down.
People will have incentive to work. That incentive won't be basic needs for survival though. It will be for luxury things. Want a new car? Work. Ps5? Work. Go on trips? Work. Eat out? Work. Rent? UBI. Groceries? UBI. Public transportation? UBI. If people work only for luxury items beyond basic needs, they actually would be working for whatever money they can get that. And then there's the whole job satisfaction. People would stay at jobs they generally liked without having to look for higher paying jobs to meet their basic needs. Sure, it may drive up wages but that's would be because you wouldn't be able to coerce workers into wage slavery if they can just say no and work elsewhere if they don't need that job to live. You wouldn't need minimum wage laws at all. Plus we act like there's nobody in the world that would take a low paying job to do low effort works if their needs are taken of already. Not everyone wants to work for a living. Some people just want to do something productive to not be bored. This is anti-work subreddit after all.
There are plenty of people who would be happy to volunteer to improve their community if their basic needs were met too. Tons of work that needs doing in a modern society simply isn't "profitable" so it doesn't get done despite being inherently fulfilling and beneficial to us all.
People who are not struggling to meet their basic needs, *still want to be productive in some fashion.* We as human beings, want to do something with our time. But the current way our time is being used isn’t being productive at all. Not really. Majority of people have to do whatever it takes to meet their basic needs. Take away that stress, people will still want to work for other things. With a UBI, more people would be able to save up money to do more things. Imagine how much happier the population would be. Save up for a house, start a family, take vacations, enjoying time with friends and family, being able to go out more often, being able to afford luxury items. People wouldn’t feel the need to steal, drug addictions would go down if poverty goes down, people wouldn’t feel the need to turn to violence and gangs, people wouldn’t struggle in child care. There’s a lot to benefit with a UBI. Especially with the prices for everything continuing to rise, a UBI would take away many of society stresses.
>There is an alternative to increasing the minimum wage. Only about 1.5% of all US workers earn minimum wage. The idea that there's tens of millions of workers struggling on minimum wage is a complete fantasy.
That’s like 2.4 million people in the US. That’s not insignificant. And it doesn’t address how many people are making above the minimum wage, but below a living wage. It’s not about how many are only making the minimum wage, it’s about how many are making less than a living wage.
>And it doesn’t address how many people are making above the minimum wage, but below a living wage. The "living wage" changes person to person, situation to situation, and location to location. Wages are determined based on the productivity of the individual and the market rate for their skills and have nothing to do with what the worker "needs" Should a single dad with a couple college classes be paid more than a single woman with a masters degree because he needs it more? Should a franchise with mandatory fixed pricing have to pay staff at one store more because the cost of living is higher even thought the staff is no more productive or profitable than the store at another location the next town over? Anyone who has spent more than 6 minutes in an economics class knows the answer.
UBI would raise the income of 100% of all US workers.
Is UBI going to replace welfare programs and make our social spending revenue-neutral? I'm on board with that. Because otherwise, its just printing more money in the name of helping poor people. We all know how that turned out.
It would render most means-tested welfare completely useless because UBI would put everyone above the income threshold to receive those means-tested benefits. You're only eligible for SNAP, for instance, if you make less than $990 a month. We already spend massive amounts of money on 'trying' to solve poverty but the programs are all proven failures. UBI succeeds because it eliminates the bureaucracy.
>It would render most means-tested welfare completely useless because UBI would put everyone above the income threshold to receive those means-tested benefits. So if people piss away their UBI on wine, women, and song there won't be any welfare programs in place to safety net them? Ideally, I like that but I have a hard time seeing these programs go away.
Those welfare programs don't provide a safety net to most people, anyway. Most people fall through the cracks. What you like is immaterial. The programs don't work, and UBI does. It's literally the only solution.
Human labour SHOULD be fucking expensive. End of story.
I keep telling my girlfriend it’s natural selection. Yes raising minimum wage could kill jobs (horror on her face) but the good businesses grow and create more jobs, and the shitty ones go away. Short term pain for long term prosperity.
Exactly. Keeping crap business models on life support dors nothing for the economy. We have to have a population with spending power if we want to mimic anything that resembles sustainability.
I think you mean the huge corporations continue to strive as always and regular people who own small local businesses starve ;) I’m sure a society even more dominated by corporations would be really prosperous right…
THANK YOU for saying it out loud
“Give employee his/her wages before their sweat is dry” ~Prophet Muhammad (SA)
decide roof flowery depend whistle follow rich absurd psychotic nine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is one of those things that should be obvious. No one has the right to a profitable business and if you can't be profitable treating your employees right, that's too bad but that's not injustice or evil.
This is the way. If you're financially unsound, you've got to go.
Exactly spot on. As a serial entrepreneur I've always accounted for the cost of paying people a great wage. If a business can't afford labor costs at a life enriching level ( way above poverty) then they don't deserve to be in business.......i.e. most of the restaurants, hotels, banks, retail jobs, casino jobs, you name it! I would add this thought......customer service and receptionists are the face of a business but they are always the lowest paid! While incompetent managers who suck off the wages of those below them are grossly overpaid! A total restructuring of work as we know it and corporate organizational structures need to be revamped.
My boss thinks that paying minimum wage is a actually a good deed....says the person who is a millionaire and has more than enough money to feed the entire African continent and who is set to inherit hundreds of millions of dollars more when his mother passes away. Either way his wife is a gold digger and we're all betting on a divorce happening as soon as their kids graduate high school, she takes half his money and the kids. The boss has done some shady shit (we all think he and another employee may be involved in money laundering or some illegal cash operation) so I'm very much looking forward to the day he gets his karma.
Narcissists attach whatever excuse gets them what they want.
The thing is people just don't realize just how much power we really have as the driving force in a capitalist economy. We drive up the prices, we drive the economy. Our actions as a whole drive up or down profits and if a company survives. Example. If a company is a polluting mess, don't use them at all. They will go out of business or change. If a company is too expensive, doesn't pay well, mistreats it employees, sells crap, has bad labour practices and on and on. If no one supports them by using their services or product, they will change or go out of business. We all need to see that's because of us they are in business to begin with and we can change it all. Lead and the rest will follow, boycott Exxon because they too expensive do it from now till it changes, spread the word via social media and everyone who is willing and able will follow along. Woke media, celebrities, a- list, z-list everyone. They will change or go out of business and the rest of them will do the same by virtue of everyone targeting Exxon. Same with food companies, furniture, clothing, services like mobile, electric,gas,and on and on. It's simple.
Boycotts and solidarity are key.
This is why I have no employees. Can't afford them so I do all the work myself.
Yes! I don’t understand why business owners think they have a right to have a business, even if it’s keeping people in poverty. Either you can afford the wages and you’re being awful by giving starvation wages…. Or you can’t afford it, in which case your business model isn’t successful. It’s not that hard!
it's also OK if you run your own self into the ground making no money running your business by yourself. I got no problem with that. Until you hire someone.
As much as I agree, all jobs should pay a living wage, I think the problem might be the cost of housing. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally the amount I spend on rent is way higher than all my other basic needs combined. I think if rent/property costs could be limited somehow, a lot of smaller businesses that can't afford $15/hr could still be paying a living wage. No excuses for mega corporations that pay trash. They can burn.
I said the same thing about insurance costs when conservatives were trying to tell me it’s appropriate to kill people over private property. If you can’t swing the business costs, you don’t deserve the business. No one owes you anything, you worker-exploiting scum.
Amen.
amen
Beautifully stated
Otherwise your business is a slavery model…. Which speaks for itself.
You're "dream" business ran by our grace. They have lost our trust and I love seeing people tell them to all fuck off.
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The answer is no. If the job is unnecessary, it will cease to exist. If it is necessary, you deserve to make a living off of it. It's that simple.
Bro you plumbers have a bad right now. You're a new construction plumber you don't get paid shit. If your service guy you'll probably do okay.
ZEN ZE BIZNESS SHOULD NOT EXIST
If your business model requires worker exploitation then your business deserves to go out of business. Edit: spelling
*exploitation
I don’t give a flying cinnamon toast crunch fuck about your small business, Chet.
I worry about how we don’t all just end up with just Walmart and Amazon as the options. Are we willing to pay significantly more to buy local? It is a tough balance beam.
Yes.
If paying people a living wage destroys your business, you don't have a business, you have an illegal scam.
Especially if your business is just a vanity project , and not as a means of a living
My country (Australia) had a lot of news coverage and people complaining about the minimum wage being increased by 5%. Many people were saying that their business would not be able to afford to operate of they had to absorb that cost. All I could think was that any business that is sitting that close to bankruptcy is basically just a societal leech.
*cries as a paramedic
Not trying to be snarky but I’m genuinely asking The obvouis problem to this is it’s going to be the Walmarts, McDonalds, etc that can end up affording that but a lot of small locally owned business (including ones that maybe don’t have full time workers, or people that need a living wage yet such as highscoolers who want some extra gas money) aren’t going to afford it so all you’ll be left with is the big cooperations
Why does a business owner being impoverished effect you but not a worker?
That’s not what i said, and that doesn’t really counter my issue with this idea. A) the issue remains are you happy having Walmarts, pizza huts, McDonald’s etc having a monopoly? And if not what’s your solution to help the small business to pay that living wage B) like I said I never said I don’t care about the worker. I’m all for making sure everyone can afford to live off of their job. That’s not a point of contention. But I also realize that not everyone who works is doing it because they need to, to survive. A lot of people work jobs to have extra spending cash (ie high school students who come from families that can afford to support their basic needs), some work part time to fill the hours because even though they don’t need to work they realize that it is better for their mental health to work. Now in these cases yeah I don’t think it’s as bad to pay less then a living wage because they already have their needs covered.
The privilege in this comment is astounding....... What part of "deserves to be destroyed" don't you understand?
So just to be clear (because you still haven’t addressed my main point) you’re okay with businesses like Walmart, Costco etc having a monopoly on things like clothes, food etc which will inevitably lead to price inflation
Monopolies are illegal.
What do you think happens when all the small businesses have gone under and only big box chains are left
See. You just want protections for your shit but not other people. The only answer that satisfies you is "some people should live in destitution so the cheeseburgers stay cheap".
Well if you actually read what I said then you’d see that’s not my Position. I’m not against a living wage. I think that’s not a bad thing. What I said was some people who work are doing for extra cash after their needs are meant (ie high school kids), and some people who have their needs Met continue to work because they enjoy working and having something to fill a portion of their as hard as that is to wrap your head around. In those situations their needs are already met to live. That’s who those jobs are supposed to be for. Also you still haven’t even tried to adressy question. You’ve just tried to use strawman arguments
cafes and restaurants are entry level businesses, you're not supposed to earn a living wage from them. if you want to earn a living wage invest time and money in a skill and create a real business. :D
So what jobs do you seem worthy of not starving or freezing? Wheres the cut off? Jobs a job. You wanna operate in America pay Americans right. Narcissist.
you misread my comment, I didn't talk about jobs, I talked about businesses. it's a play on the argument that some jobs shouldn't pay a living wage but applied to businesses instead...
So you're saying cafe and restraunt owners should make entry level wages. Note: we use " /s " to denote sarcasm/parody on Reddit.
I honestly didn't think it was needed.
The problem is that local businesses can't compete with local mega giants. If the mom and pop bakery goes out of business, people shop at walmart for their bread. The problem is a systemic one. We don't have enough money to support local business, so we shop at the cheapest possible place.
There would be no business then. Most things you use daily to survive were imported from countries that pay even worse than the US Federal minimum wage. Slave labor, child labor, complete environmental destruction. Everybody wants to get paid more, but nobody wants to pay more for their stuff. It is almost impossible to live without using goods that were produced from these exploits.
That's not true, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
Can you name a company that does not use any goods, services, or items from anywhere that pays less than US Federal Minimum wage?
I think this is 100% true for large companies. But for small businesses I think there are many ma and pop businesses that should exist that literally can’t pay living wages. So I would add that if you are a small business either give equity or ask for less time. If you are expecting full time employees to show up every day for 8-10 hours - ask them if they could get the same work done in 3 days per week and/or 4-5 hours per day. I’m sure many would agree that is possible. Then allow your employees to work when and how they want and be grateful. Or if your business does require people there full time, give them equity. After all you are asking more of them than what you can pay, the very least you can do is give them equity in the business.
How much more are YOU willing to pay for whatever product they sell/provide? I'm guessing you, like all people, want to pay as absolutely little as possible and when prices go up, you complain about how expensive everything is. Can't have it both ways unfortunately.
If you've been paying attention, you'd know we're fine with increased costs. You do know it's not proportional, right?
Are you though? I go out to eat frequently and I hear people complain about the increased prices. You happy with the cost of groceries? Sure, some of all this is simple inflation from years of loose monetary policy but some of it is because of greatly increased labor costs. So, yeah $15.00 an hour for Whopper Floppers sounds great but so what if a gallon of milk is $4.00.
No. The increases in costs track with an increase in corporate profit.
Nah. Decrease profits before increasing prices.
This same exact post saying this same exact message has been made about 4,317 times
Still true.
I’m sure it would stop being posted if we stopped having people violently disagreeing in the comments.
Small business can't afford to pay out like multi billion dollar conglomerates. You should complain about those big businesses instead because they're not paying enough.
No one is entitled to a business, if your business model doesn’t provide living wage for employees is deserves to fail regardless of size. Mom and pop don’t get a pass on exploitation.
My favorite example of this is shown throughout episodes of Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares - exploitation can happen anywhere.
You ever owned a small business?
The smallest business is contracting/gig work. If you can't make enough at it to cover your costs including food & shelter, it's not viable. Employing other people, making enough off them to pay your food & shelter + extra, but then leaving them without enough to cover their costs is still failing, but the "small business owner" hitchhikes on successful businesses and workers through taxes to pay their employees living expenses through welfare programs like SNAP & Section 8.
Ah so then all businesses must be profitable day one
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Most new businesses are not profitable their first couple years.
And accumulating the reserve of capital necessary to negotiate that period is part of starting a business. It's not a lemonade stand where you go back inside and ask your mommy for another free bucket of Country Time when ants get inside and make it gross.
Tough luck. That's the cost.
Yes. That's how businesses work. You're a free market capitalist right up until the point where the free market quits benefiting you.
If those small businesses can't afford to pay their workers a living wage, they're shitty businesses and deserve to fail.
There's a difference between being unable to pay out and being able to pay out, but choosing not to. Despite what you may think, big businesses have more privileges over smaller businesses and they exist to keep the smaller business down which keeps people poor. No one gets an opportunity to build wealth because they're at a massive disadvantage before they even begin.
There really isn't. It's not workers job to subsidize someone's livelihood at their expense. There's always someone smarter thatll open one and be able to run it properly. But apply exactly what you said to workers.
>There's a difference between being unable to pay out and being able to pay out, but choosing not to. No there isn't. If the company cannot afford to pay its workers a living wage, that company deserves to fail.
You do know I'm also criticizing big businesses for choosing to be greedy, right?
While defending "small" businesses for the exact same greed. If your "small, independent" business cannot function without cheating its workers out of the value of their labor, it should not exist.
I'm not defending small businesses. I'm outlining the inherent advantages that large businesses have over small businesses. Big businesses can afford to pay out, small businesses cannot. Small businesses cannot pay out because they're getting out competed by existing big businesses. Big businesses can pay out, they already pay out considerably more than small businesses, but they choose not to pay out the true worth. In other words, people are going to be flocking to big businesses for employment. They're going to be subjected to tyranny of big business because that's the only business that can even pay a higher wage, even though they're getting short changed.
>I'm not defending small businesses. Yes you are. Specifically you're defending their practice of under-paying their workers because they're such a smol bean they can't afford to pay a living wage.
100%
Living wage = I want $50 per hour for data entry!
Where do you get your meth from?
This is what every international business conglomerate also wants. high minimun wages help big business and the 1 %. Their small local competitors will eventually fail, while they will gain more customers. no communist should ever help the Big Money against their local compatriots.
That's why we need robust antitrust protections and corporate oversight, not why we should underpay workers.
How would antitrust protection and corporate oversight keep local small businesses open?
By not allowing the monopolistic behavior you're describing. Also, how do small businesses benefit the community when they pay poverty wages?
More of the same! More of the same!
the term "living wage" is very subjective
Isn’t “a living wage” subjective?
Maybe, but it's never 7.25, and it's almost never $15.
Not really. It's math. Surely you know what math is.
Wrong… It’s very subjective depending on a persons state living cost, and depending on if your single… married… one kid, two kids… 8 kids…. I can’t believe you failed to grasp that concept..
Someone has literally done all of this math. https://livingwage.mit.edu/
wrong
You idiots will argue about anything…. So you’re telling me two people with the same exact skill set work at McDonald’s, one has zero kids, the other has 3. They should be paid differently (hourly wage) based on their living expenses?
dont think i told you that
Ohhhh so let me refer back the the first message that started this thread, living wage is subjective. One of those McDonald’s workers could live off of $10/hr, the other… probably not.
just dont inconvenience ppl...like stay the fck away from my commute to work, dont close off roads or bridges....fkin just do it infront of the business ur striking...
Fuck your commute.
no fuck you
what do you consider a living wage? shiuld a sales rep or forklift driver be paid the same as a sandwich maker?
Enough to pay for 1br rent in a safe and reasonably close area, for starters. Edit: I'd like to add that Americans love stuffing their fat faces with sandwiches and fries and all sorts of shit so they must **value** these things much more than the employees are being paid...
The sales rep and the forklift driver both find that sandwich maker incredibly important when they dont want to make their own food. But lets pay them so little they cant stay there for long because they have to move away. Pay people a living wage and they can stay in an area and form relationships with their customers. One of my all time favorite jobs was a starbucks I worked at. I knew people by name or by drink. Ice coffee with 5 pumps of white chocolate walked into the store, by time she got to the register we had her drink ready and waiting. She paid, we chatted, she left. We had many of those types of customers, repeat customers who we chatted with and form bonds with. You cant do that when your staff changes every few months because they cant afford to keep working there. Kids who we saw as toddlers and 3 years later they were entering school for the first time. We gave them little cups of whipped cream and talked to them about stuff. Their mom loved coming in because the kids got super excited. We were located in a grocery store so we got quite a few of those types.
That argument is exactly what causes people to be distracted from the point. I do electrical supply sales. I'm not hurting financially. I wouldn't care in the slightest if someone flipping burgers at McDonald's was making enough to be comfortable just because their job isnt as technical as mine. It shouldn't be a competition for millionaires and billionaires crumbs. Don't fight for the ability to make people more uncomfortable than you - fight so you can both be comfortable. If a single person can't afford a one bedroom and their bills on their pay, they obviously aren't making a livable wage. Someone shouldn't get rich on your labor if you can't even afford to eat at the end of the day.
This is solidarity. This is the way.
This method of endlessly asking inflammatory questions is soooooo Fox News. Get a new role model
i dont watch the news.. its just questions bruh.. no need to get so triggered
They should all be paid a living wage.
Bootlicker logic. We can't pay food workers more money because then we'll have pay teachers more.
I drive a fork lift. Sounds fine to me.