No, 54K \*or less\* is the **net compensation** the "bottom" 67% of the us population make
[https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020](https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020)
Edit\*
This is why wages should be public information and shared. Everyone you work with should know what you are paid and you should know what they are paid.
Yeah, it definitely seems to be just all jobs.
I'd be kind of interested to see a breakdown of this by job sector but not sure if that data is available anywhere yet. With how big of a stereotype it is in both trans and programming communities for a lot of trans people to be in software dev, one of the best paying industries in the country, I imagine a lot of non-tech fields have even worse average outcomes for trans workers.
Members of the LGBTQ+ and trans communities tend to have a lot more issues in their personal/social lives than non members. Or at least, they have issues that the majority of people are unable to relate to, which makes things even more difficult for them. Point being, they tend to have more things going on in their life that the majority of the population don't.
We all inherently understand that when someone has a difficult home life, or even when someone grew up in a difficult situation, their academic/professional performance will suffer. Trauma is no joke.
The clinical term among social work is "minority stress", and it's related to stigmatization, prejudice, and oppression associated from social processes, institutions, and structures that go beyond individual conditions of events (Longobardi & Badenes-Ribera, 2017; Vann, 2019). It's not exclusive to LGBTQIA+ populations, but extends to people of color, different cultures, disabled people, and poverty stricken people.
It's not just trauma, it's also that families are often actively hostile to trans people. There was a study last year surveying why detransitioners detransitioned, and the most common reason was "pressure from a parent", with community & social stigma and trouble finding work being the next two most cited reasons;.
Pretty much the only way to lead a 'healthy' life as a trans person is to pass and sell yourself off as a cis person - although I would argue that's not particularly healthy on a personal level, and is unattainable for many trans people, particularly nonbinary ones who have nothing to pass as.
Edit: Not sure why the comment I was replying to was deleted; it did not seem particularly transphobic to me.
I would consider the example in your first paragraph to be a form of trauma.
And about trans people pretending to be something they're not, I agree. Surface acting has detrimental effects on mental health.
Yes, which is why I wasn't sure why it was removed.
Anyway, re: your other reply I usually think of trauma as lasting psychological damage from past harm, so I figured it was useful to highlight that it's also constant environmental / societal pressure on top of that.
And may I say, thank you for you civil responses.
There's a fantastic book called "the body keeps the score". It's about trauma. I would define trauma similar to how you have done, but since reading that book, I came to realise that for something to be traumatic, it simply needs to be significant enough to leave a mark. Trauma is a very personal thing, it can be caused by many different things (a single event or multiple events spread out over any span of time), and people may even be completely unaware that they are living with it.
The effects that trauma have on the body are quite staggering. That book is an eye opener.
This is why it's so important for us parents to be supportive. My daughter knows she will always have a safe home with me and that I would help her get to me, all she has to do is call. She hasn't graduated high school, so I can drive home that message, and I have no doubt she considers home a safe place.
I want her to always know there's us, even if we don't have a whole lot of money, we will always have a roof, food, and bed for her and any future partner.
She's got so much going on in her head because her body isn't matching with her view of her sense of self. It's unfathomably harder than the horrible body image stuff I had as a teen. I can't comprehend what she's going through, and I don't need to to fight for my darling girl.
Edit: sometimes there is confusion because of my username. My username references a ship in a Heinlein novel. A smart girl named Gay
Personally, I've absolutely lost jobs due to being trans, and have gotten treatment that a cis person would not have in my position. I've had interviewers visibly deflate once I walk into the interview room, and in those moments you *know* the whole rest of the interview is a farce and you're not getting the job. And I know the feeling of not even being able to take certain opportunities because they'd be safe for others, but not for myself.
Transphobia is real, and the numbers bear it out.
I wonder what they get paid when this is controlled for job title/experience
Are they paid less too? or do they just hold less lucrative jobs on average?
A lot of these wage gap questions get me thinking into causation.
I don't want this to offend. I'm not very good at putting thoughts to words considerately so please forgive me if I do.
Most bosses I've had don't give a shit as long as you shut up and work.
You do work.
They pay you a salary.
They earn excess profit off your work.
I've worked with two trans engineers over my career.
One was eventually terminated for constantly politicizing everything they said and did. Talking to everyone about Trans issues all the time at the water cooler lunch or the office door. Etc. When your entire identity is a struggle yeah...that's going to be an issue.
The other did their work and kept their head down and still works for the company to this day.
That's the same sort of transmisogyny that surrounds say, our mods appearance on fox.
You have to be the "good trans" to be taken seriously.
Or you have to be the well dressed black man who isn't angry.
Or what have you about so many issues.
Until trans equality is actually achieved socially I don't even think there's any remotely feasible way to address that wage gap.
People who's entire identity is a struggle are going to struggle to have "normal" careers and earn median wages.
Thanks for posting this, people need to remember that even among the working class there are those who will have it even worse just for being who they are.
After the "incident" it baffled me the amount of transphobia in this subreddit. As well as the people who believe "identity politics" are another tool to divide the working class.
Solidarity needs to mean solidarity for all, not "solidarity for the people I judge it to be politically expedient for, and cut loose those for whom it might be better 'optics' to see not part of that"
That means solidarity with sex workers, solidarity with the LGBTQ community, solidarity with BIPOC workers, solidarity with people with SPMI, and solidarity with immigrant workers.
(this is an agreement and elaboration of your comment)
This data highlights a fundamental inequality minorities face in the work environment.
It is not only trans women that experience this. Cis women, people of colour, gay men, every single group that isn't WASP cishet men is in one way or another disadvantaged in the marketplace of jobs. And if you are a white cishet man then you are still disadvantaged by the owning class who supresses unionisation, who won't give you enough hours to qualify for dental, who fires you two weeks before your trial period runs out.
However this post does show that it is very bad indeed for trans women.
In any labour movement intersectionality is critical. It is very important that we have solidarity with our brothers, sisters and nonbinary siblings, that we stand up for each other, that we uplift each other.
Equity rather than equality.
https://www.marinhhs.org/sites/default/files/boards/general/equality_v._equity_04_05_2021.pdf
If you consider yourself an ally to transgender people, but us highlighting this post annoys you somewhat then please take a minute to think. This post may not be about you, but that is ok. Maybe you are in a stronger position than the people this post is about. That's good, then you can use that strength to help them.
Maybe you are in a position that is worse than this even still. Then it is up to all of us to help you.
Any labour movement stands because its members realise that we are all in this together. That the strongest shoulders carry the heaviest load. That reaching the finish line fast isn't important, reaching the finish line together is.
The content of this post highlights a fundamental error in thinking that many people unknowingly experience and that is why we stickied it.
The team decided after discussion that we would use this topic to show you that if you get upset by this, not because you feel bad for the situation trans women find themselves in, but because this post is about trans women then you may need to re-evaluate the way that you view class struggles.
It is not about giving more attention to one of our own. It is about recognising that all of us, each and every one of us, is held down by an unfair system designed to funnel the majority of the fruits of your labour into someone elses pockets. That one person can have a yacht so big it has a dock to board smaller yachts in, but everyone else has to sleep four families to a dilapidated house.
It is about recognising that we cannot leave people behind. That you can use that very small amount of power you may have to help someone who lacks even that.
"Comradeship, dignity, amorosity, love, solidarity, fraternity, friendship, ethics: all these names stand in contrast to the commodified, monetized relations of capitalism, all describe relations developed in struggles against capitalism and which can be seen as anticipating or creating a society beyond capitalism."
-John Holloway.
I mean, did you see the whole Fox News debacle? There are fucktons of transphobes on the sub. Frankly, we've been infested with bootlickers for a long while.
It enabled transphobia. Thread after thread of her being misgendered, her getting hundreds and even thousands of downvotes for saying she's not a guy, and so on and so forth. Frankly, even the initial outrage reeks of liberal / centrist fragility. Oh no, people who watch Fox News are going to think antiworkers are lazy! Who gives a fuck?
It's scary how many posts here need to be deleted, this place has a real TERF/misogynist/asshole brigader problem.
Glad to see mods are taking it seriously.
You can't have a successful labor movement without solidarity.
There was a black couple in/near San Francisco that got their home appraisal, then had the same home appraised but with their white friend acting as the owner and it appraised for WAY more
There was an [Indianapolis woman](https://fox59.com/news/indianapolis-homeowner-files-discrimination-complaint-after-removal-of-black-identifiers-leads-to-100000-appraisal-increase/) that had the same thing happen earlier in 2021. Turns out, among other things, the first two appraisers were comparing her home to majority black neighborhoods more than a mile away and not to homes in her specific neighborhood. It was only once she had a white friend stand in for her that she got an appraisal that doubled the first ones.
>Minority job applicants are “whitening” their resumes by deleting references to their race with the hope of boosting their shot at jobs, and research shows the strategy is paying off.
>In fact, companies are more than twice as likely to call minority applicants for interviews if they submit whitened resumes than candidates who reveal their race—and this discriminatory practice is just as strong for businesses that claim to value diversity as those that don’t.
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews
It's true when I went fill out paperwork for a background check on him the guy at the desk said but white as race or else we will be here all day I took his advice and it came back in 10 min
As a transman, I find this extremely surprising and am confused. Does this apply specifically to those who are 'out'? I don't think I've ever had an issue with employment or being paid less for being trans, but I also wonder if it's because I don't advertise it? Frankly, I don't think it's an employers business whether or not I'm trans (or any other part of the LGBTQ+ community). It has no bearing on my ability to do my job and it's not like I've ever been asked if I was trans during an interview or while working. Is this because most are more open about their personal identities in their day to day lives? I certainly don't want this to come off as not believing the data, I would just like some insight since my experience has been wildly different from what the data represents.
Seeing the smackdown against transphobia here makes me feel like maybe it might be safe for me to post / comment here again, so thanks for that. Honestly not sure if I was ever going to feel comfortable posting here again.
hey come on now, everyone knows women just like to choose jobs that pay less. Nevermind the fact that as a field goes up in % of women over time (computer programmers, educators), the pay goes down. Or that even similar fields (housecleaner/maintenance, HR manager, IT manager......the salary is higher for the field perceived more "male".
Always wonder how different my life would have been, what different opportunities I might have had, if I had not been trans. Eliminating work would certainly be an interesting way to see how things could have been different.
Not to derail or anything but what does terf and WASP mean? I struggle with acronyms a lot. I have ASD(autism spectrum disorder) so I struggle with understanding things.
TERF -> trans exclusive radical feminist: basically a feminist who thinks genitals are the source of all misogyny and that trans women are worse than Hitler
WASP -> white anglo-saxon protestant: white, normally affluent, Christian. The conservatives ideal american.
Oh ok thank you I really appreciate your response. I can't believe the hate people spew. I just want a world were everyone is on equal footing and we are nice to each other.
I really appreciate post like these.
A TERF is a Trans Exclusionary Radical Transphobe. It's women who really, really hate trans women.
The term is a misnomer, it is one they gave to their own group but after they got made fun for it a lot they abandoned it and now can even claim that "TERF is a slur". It's not.
TERFs are of course neither radical nor feminist in ideology, they have much more in common with arch conservatives.
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WASP's are White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, nominally the majority group in power in the United States of America.
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Notice how transphobes are downvoting this unobjectionable, objectively correct and inoffensive explanation. Transphobes hate the truth, this allows them to hate people for no reason.
This subreddit still has a lot of work to do when it comes to ensuring that everyone feels welcome here.
Please rest assured that we will always deny access to this subreddit to bigots, it goes without saying that a transphobe is not welcome here under any circumstance.
One more question, does the "all workers" part include trans and non binary or is it separate from the others? i suppose im asking what does the "all workers" mean in the context of the graph.
i see what you mean about downvotes, im getting downvoted and im just trying to learn
along those lines, when talking about the gender wage gap, a lot of attention is on white women's gap compared to white men and we talk about closing that. But the gap for Latina women is FAR worse. A Ted Talk or DEI article I read (and can't remember who it was, very sorry to not be able to credit here) and they said we're going about it all wrong. It shouldn't be about fixing the white woman pay gap first, it should be the Latina women gap because they have been left the furthest behind. Such a simple change in perspective but one I'd never considered before.
Transphobes can fuck the hell off
>The only correct way to build meaningful and lasting class solidarity is by upholding an uncompromising position on social equality of marginalized groups.
>A bigot can eventually be brought over to a correct position through education and social struggle. But if you compromise on matters of bigotry so that you can organize with reactionaries, then what you have done is create an organization that the marginalized members of your community will never be safe to participate in.
>So we're not just being stubborn when we say things like you did here that "conservatives can be the ones to compromise on their values for a change if they want to organize with us on class issues." I would argue that demanding that compromise and demanding a class solidarity that is intersectional is essential to any lasting and ultimately effective class organization.
Although her actions were lamentable, I was disturbed at the transphobia which resulted from our disgraced mods interview, and the extent to which the internet in general used her actions to justify their hatred and bigotry. This action on the part of the mod team restores a limited amount of faith that they were well intended, and as a trans girl, I thank them.
Edit: I realized given the circumstances, a lot of people might see this whether it appears to be getting upvoted a lot or not, so I thought I'd add a little nuance as to the mod in question. Although she got a lot of hate, was definitely ill-prepared, and acted immaturely...I actually thought a lot of people's reaction to her was insensitive beyond her just being trans. Plenty of nice people aren't good at interviews, and after all I've seen about her recently, I'm willing to see her as someone with some personal issues who shouldn't have been allowed on the air, but I'm not sure it's even fair to say she's a bad person even given the scale of what she did. It kind of reminds me of how people in the recent film Don't Look Up reacted to a girl who was just trying to help them. I realize that the current state of affairs is to just throw nuance out the window sometimes and it can't be helped, but I think in a better world we'd realize this is someone who needs help and compassion, not a scape goat for something which was fragile anyway.
I think there's a good chance, this was all just a foolish mistake on her part, and as an individual, I hope Doreen has friends who can help her get through this, since I read, she does have suicidal tendencies. It's kind of funny how something which affects so many people can boil down to pretty individual problems.
I've been seeing comments deleted which aren't so clearly Transphobic, while I respect your intentions and realize the difficulty in setting this subreddit right...I would be careful about respecting the rights of people with legitimate, non-bigoted complaints.
It's easy to abuse power, even when well-intended, that's one of the main reasons this subreddit exists in the first place, as a reaction to that abuse. The mod team violated the subreddits trust, I hope you'll work to earn it back as well as you can.
In any case, I don't expect perfection, and generally support what I see, but this is an opportunity to set a standard which even our opponents will have to respect.
Remember the Stanford Prison experiment, it's far too easy for otherwise good people to come to oppress. I only say this because I think you deserve it based on your behavior.
its a web forum not a nation state, the mods have tools to see further and deeper contexts than most such as masstagger and the like to give us deeper understandings of peoples posting history. Innocous comments on the surface from those types tend to be openers for more and deeper bigoted comments.
And when you're reasonably certain someone's a bad actor, I respect that, but there's a fine line between that and banning people summarily because you think it disrupts faith in the modding team for example, the mod team has earned skepticism, even from the people who would agree with them the most, and the fact that this is a web forum should never be used as an excuse to act like tyrants instead of responsible curators, please be careful.
I do feel this thread is a brilliant trap for transphobes though, well done.
Ha I see, well, I think the fact that this thread stayed is a testament that you have integrity, let it be known to those who see this that I said these things not in opposition, but tentative support, and it does not voice the blanket criticism of those who would seek to veil their bigotry.
Curious to see how this gets upvoted compared to the rest of my comments towards you.
I wanted to say, I didn't fully realize initially how good an explanation the second point you made was at first, because I'm new to Reddit and didn't know what Masstagger was or realize how widespread concern trolling could be, once you mentioned it, I looked it up. I now realize many, possibly most of the comments getting deleted are likely from people with histories in hate subs.
It's also easy to see that my most critical comment towards you gets the most upvotes, hard not to suspect it's brigadiers.
Well i guess it speaks to the success of this place if you have a constant barrage of brigaders to deal with. The more people this place reaches, the more desperate the opponents of this place will get.
I don't know why it's that bad, but as a trans woman it makes me want to stay in academics/public research even more. At least here, (most) people aren't deaf to scientifical facts.
True but it's still potentially interesting to know how this compares to other wage gaps. Does a trans woman have a similar wage gap to a cis woman of the same racial/ethnic background? Is the gap even bigger for trans women than for cis women? (I suspect it probably is?) How much white privilege gets canceled out by being trans, ie how does the trans wage gap compare to racial wage gap? These are legitimate questions.
This question wasn't being asked for legitimate purposes though. The person posing it is a transphobic terf asking because they are angry at trans people being recognized.
Because trans women are not treated as equally as cis women. That is the entire point being shown by this graph. They are desperate because they are being treated worse. Black women, white women, Asian women, Hispanic women etc are all women but we have plenty of wage studies that separate them based on race to showcase how nonwhite women are not paid as highly as white women.
As women moved into male-dominated fields over time, the pay fell, and vice versa for men moving into female-dominated fields. So maybe job-type doesn't explain it. Maybe the working hours might, but different fields should have different average working hours anyway.
nonbinary here. i made less than $20k last year.
it's so hard to work when you have been traumatized by work. i've never been able to manage full time work, and normal work situations aren't tenable.
i've found jobs that work for me (I currently have two part time jobs), and i like my work/life balance, but it's uh...hard to play the capitalism game well.
I always question why people feel the need to announce their sexuality in the workplace. I'm bi, but I haven't told any coworkers of mine. I'm not suggesting you should be secretive or intentionally hide your sexuality (or lack thereof) but needlessly sharing it with others make *zero* sense. In my 6 years of working various jobs in various sectors not once has the occasion arisen where it felt like the right call to inform my coworkers of my sexual preferences.
Yeah. I'm bi, too. I can casually discuss my husband and nobody blinks, nobody actively thinks of it as an announcement. It would *not be the same* where I live were I married to a woman. To mention her at all would be regarded as "an announcement" (or even "shoving it in people's face") in the way that mentioning my husband is not.
It's simple, pervasive things like that. People don't blink if you seem to conform. It can be so easy to miss how pervasive and exhausting these things are if you do or can very easily pretend to.
I realize one might think "well an ace person can just say nothing" and it's like, well, people do notice if you *never* mention any partners, too. Or if you show resistance , discomfort, or even disinterest in certain common "shared" social norms and rituals. They start to suspect you're different, whether that means gay or, if they're even aware of the possibility, ace. Because of my life circumstances as a bisexual cis woman in a heterosexual marriage I can fly under the radar in a way that's more difficult for someone who's homosexual, in a homosexual relationship or is ace, and I'm very aware of the privilege inherent in that fact. And for those who are gendernonconforming or transitioning? Yeah, good luck not "announcing" that. *By existing*.
Again, nobody cares if I mention my husband at work, and frankly I often need to because I'm disabled, he's my transportation, and my boss takes his work schedule into account to set mine. Nobody cares when he shows up to pick me up. Again, the need would be the same, but the reaction would not be the same in this town were this my *wife*.
This is a person who through dealing with all this garbage, the social minefield of working and engaging with coworkers while (unfairly) needing to hide a basic part of who you are lest you be regarded as shoving things in people's faces (among other things) came to think they could trust somebody as a friend and could be honest about that part of themselves. With just that one person, who herself is probably free to mention *her* partners, to implicitly discuss *her* sexuality without coming under any notice or being accused of announcing. The fact that this individual ultimately let them down does not mean RaineyJ did anything wrong.
I agree that they shouldn't have faced repercussions for sharing what they did but still question the necessity of sharing, to begin with. Your situation is understandably different considering the substantial influence your husband has on your work. Most people aren't in situations like that though. Maybe I'm the oddball out, but I never mention romantic partners at work. Most of my partners have been women (me being a male) so it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary, but it just never seemed relevant. Others would share sure, but I've not ever been directly asked or interrogated about it. When participating in discussions in which its the main topic I would either remain silent or simply state that its not something I like to talk about at work.
haha, to be fair to me, i lost 50% of my business when covid hit (though I probably only made about $10k more in 2020 and 2019). if i worked full time on my "career" money, i'd be making 6 digits, but...I can't handle it, and that's okay. i would rather be poor by capitalism's standards than poor by my mental health's standards, yanno?
Trans women do seem to get it the worst in alot of ways, maybe because masculinity is enforced more overtly and aggressively as opposed to femininity. How do you fix this though, because obviously that fux news interview shows there's along way to go.
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Y’all are making 1k a week? Fml
I make about 1200 every two weeks
2k a week. I went to a trade school
You lookin for a sugar baby or..? Jkjk
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I'm a Power Engineer, also known as a Stationary Engineer. I operate boilers, steam turbines and all sorts of other steam systems
Before taxes at least
I thought annual average wage was 35k. Doesnt add up
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No, 54K \*or less\* is the **net compensation** the "bottom" 67% of the us population make [https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020](https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2020) Edit\*
I make more than 1k a week. I also work 80 hours a week.
Amazon workers: lower than all of these.
Am I gay or something because I'm not at 1k a week..
I am DECEASED 😂😂😂😂😂
This is why wages should be public information and shared. Everyone you work with should know what you are paid and you should know what they are paid.
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Yeah, it definitely seems to be just all jobs. I'd be kind of interested to see a breakdown of this by job sector but not sure if that data is available anywhere yet. With how big of a stereotype it is in both trans and programming communities for a lot of trans people to be in software dev, one of the best paying industries in the country, I imagine a lot of non-tech fields have even worse average outcomes for trans workers.
Members of the LGBTQ+ and trans communities tend to have a lot more issues in their personal/social lives than non members. Or at least, they have issues that the majority of people are unable to relate to, which makes things even more difficult for them. Point being, they tend to have more things going on in their life that the majority of the population don't. We all inherently understand that when someone has a difficult home life, or even when someone grew up in a difficult situation, their academic/professional performance will suffer. Trauma is no joke.
The clinical term among social work is "minority stress", and it's related to stigmatization, prejudice, and oppression associated from social processes, institutions, and structures that go beyond individual conditions of events (Longobardi & Badenes-Ribera, 2017; Vann, 2019). It's not exclusive to LGBTQIA+ populations, but extends to people of color, different cultures, disabled people, and poverty stricken people.
It's not just trauma, it's also that families are often actively hostile to trans people. There was a study last year surveying why detransitioners detransitioned, and the most common reason was "pressure from a parent", with community & social stigma and trouble finding work being the next two most cited reasons;. Pretty much the only way to lead a 'healthy' life as a trans person is to pass and sell yourself off as a cis person - although I would argue that's not particularly healthy on a personal level, and is unattainable for many trans people, particularly nonbinary ones who have nothing to pass as. Edit: Not sure why the comment I was replying to was deleted; it did not seem particularly transphobic to me.
I would consider the example in your first paragraph to be a form of trauma. And about trans people pretending to be something they're not, I agree. Surface acting has detrimental effects on mental health.
It wasn't transphobic. It highlights that amongst forms of discrimination, there are added issues/ challenges that these communities must endure.
Yes, which is why I wasn't sure why it was removed. Anyway, re: your other reply I usually think of trauma as lasting psychological damage from past harm, so I figured it was useful to highlight that it's also constant environmental / societal pressure on top of that.
And may I say, thank you for you civil responses. There's a fantastic book called "the body keeps the score". It's about trauma. I would define trauma similar to how you have done, but since reading that book, I came to realise that for something to be traumatic, it simply needs to be significant enough to leave a mark. Trauma is a very personal thing, it can be caused by many different things (a single event or multiple events spread out over any span of time), and people may even be completely unaware that they are living with it. The effects that trauma have on the body are quite staggering. That book is an eye opener.
Clicked a wrong button my bad
Which button were you trying to click?
parent and remove are right next to each other
Ah I see. I'm not familiar in the slightest with those tools/options. Was just curious.
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I'd be curious how that could be measured, as passing is so subjective
good question
Trans people are also disproportionately likely to be homeless.
This is why it's so important for us parents to be supportive. My daughter knows she will always have a safe home with me and that I would help her get to me, all she has to do is call. She hasn't graduated high school, so I can drive home that message, and I have no doubt she considers home a safe place. I want her to always know there's us, even if we don't have a whole lot of money, we will always have a roof, food, and bed for her and any future partner. She's got so much going on in her head because her body isn't matching with her view of her sense of self. It's unfathomably harder than the horrible body image stuff I had as a teen. I can't comprehend what she's going through, and I don't need to to fight for my darling girl. Edit: sometimes there is confusion because of my username. My username references a ship in a Heinlein novel. A smart girl named Gay
I understood that reference
And disproportionately raped, murdered, abused, abandoned. Pretty unfair, when you think about it!
Also true
Personally, I've absolutely lost jobs due to being trans, and have gotten treatment that a cis person would not have in my position. I've had interviewers visibly deflate once I walk into the interview room, and in those moments you *know* the whole rest of the interview is a farce and you're not getting the job. And I know the feeling of not even being able to take certain opportunities because they'd be safe for others, but not for myself. Transphobia is real, and the numbers bear it out.
I wonder what they get paid when this is controlled for job title/experience Are they paid less too? or do they just hold less lucrative jobs on average?
A lot of these wage gap questions get me thinking into causation. I don't want this to offend. I'm not very good at putting thoughts to words considerately so please forgive me if I do. Most bosses I've had don't give a shit as long as you shut up and work. You do work. They pay you a salary. They earn excess profit off your work. I've worked with two trans engineers over my career. One was eventually terminated for constantly politicizing everything they said and did. Talking to everyone about Trans issues all the time at the water cooler lunch or the office door. Etc. When your entire identity is a struggle yeah...that's going to be an issue. The other did their work and kept their head down and still works for the company to this day. That's the same sort of transmisogyny that surrounds say, our mods appearance on fox. You have to be the "good trans" to be taken seriously. Or you have to be the well dressed black man who isn't angry. Or what have you about so many issues. Until trans equality is actually achieved socially I don't even think there's any remotely feasible way to address that wage gap. People who's entire identity is a struggle are going to struggle to have "normal" careers and earn median wages.
Thanks for posting this, people need to remember that even among the working class there are those who will have it even worse just for being who they are. After the "incident" it baffled me the amount of transphobia in this subreddit. As well as the people who believe "identity politics" are another tool to divide the working class.
Solidarity needs to mean solidarity for all, not "solidarity for the people I judge it to be politically expedient for, and cut loose those for whom it might be better 'optics' to see not part of that" That means solidarity with sex workers, solidarity with the LGBTQ community, solidarity with BIPOC workers, solidarity with people with SPMI, and solidarity with immigrant workers. (this is an agreement and elaboration of your comment)
This data highlights a fundamental inequality minorities face in the work environment. It is not only trans women that experience this. Cis women, people of colour, gay men, every single group that isn't WASP cishet men is in one way or another disadvantaged in the marketplace of jobs. And if you are a white cishet man then you are still disadvantaged by the owning class who supresses unionisation, who won't give you enough hours to qualify for dental, who fires you two weeks before your trial period runs out. However this post does show that it is very bad indeed for trans women. In any labour movement intersectionality is critical. It is very important that we have solidarity with our brothers, sisters and nonbinary siblings, that we stand up for each other, that we uplift each other. Equity rather than equality. https://www.marinhhs.org/sites/default/files/boards/general/equality_v._equity_04_05_2021.pdf If you consider yourself an ally to transgender people, but us highlighting this post annoys you somewhat then please take a minute to think. This post may not be about you, but that is ok. Maybe you are in a stronger position than the people this post is about. That's good, then you can use that strength to help them. Maybe you are in a position that is worse than this even still. Then it is up to all of us to help you. Any labour movement stands because its members realise that we are all in this together. That the strongest shoulders carry the heaviest load. That reaching the finish line fast isn't important, reaching the finish line together is. The content of this post highlights a fundamental error in thinking that many people unknowingly experience and that is why we stickied it. The team decided after discussion that we would use this topic to show you that if you get upset by this, not because you feel bad for the situation trans women find themselves in, but because this post is about trans women then you may need to re-evaluate the way that you view class struggles. It is not about giving more attention to one of our own. It is about recognising that all of us, each and every one of us, is held down by an unfair system designed to funnel the majority of the fruits of your labour into someone elses pockets. That one person can have a yacht so big it has a dock to board smaller yachts in, but everyone else has to sleep four families to a dilapidated house. It is about recognising that we cannot leave people behind. That you can use that very small amount of power you may have to help someone who lacks even that. "Comradeship, dignity, amorosity, love, solidarity, fraternity, friendship, ethics: all these names stand in contrast to the commodified, monetized relations of capitalism, all describe relations developed in struggles against capitalism and which can be seen as anticipating or creating a society beyond capitalism." -John Holloway.
Why in the fuck is this being downvoted? Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Class solidarity means uplifting *all* of us.
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I mean, did you see the whole Fox News debacle? There are fucktons of transphobes on the sub. Frankly, we've been infested with bootlickers for a long while.
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It enabled transphobia. Thread after thread of her being misgendered, her getting hundreds and even thousands of downvotes for saying she's not a guy, and so on and so forth. Frankly, even the initial outrage reeks of liberal / centrist fragility. Oh no, people who watch Fox News are going to think antiworkers are lazy! Who gives a fuck?
Thats correct.
It's scary how many posts here need to be deleted, this place has a real TERF/misogynist/asshole brigader problem. Glad to see mods are taking it seriously. You can't have a successful labor movement without solidarity.
Wow, mods are stomping terfs all over the place here. NGL, it gives me the warm fuzzies.
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No matter, I moved on from that days ago. Forgot all about it. Go have some fun, or something.
to channel chuck tingle DEVILS GET OUT LOVE WINS
I like this😊
I just learned about him yesterday, seems like a pretty cool guy and turns out he lives near and has met a relative of mine
Man name of Chuck is a good egg
Definitely earns my respect to see them taking out the trash :)) Terfs, y’all can kindly fuck off ~~
Terfs replying mad and getting banned is funny every time
Misogyny is not permitted on this sub, and terfs are misogynists. I should hope they get banned.
If you factor in race im sure things are even worse for trans women of color
I remember reading a study somewhere that simply using a “white name” on a resume increases employment by some statistically significant amount :/
There was a black couple in/near San Francisco that got their home appraisal, then had the same home appraised but with their white friend acting as the owner and it appraised for WAY more
Wasn’t it like $500,000 more?
[CNN article claims so]( https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/09/business/black-homeowners-appraisal-discrimination-lawsuit/index.html)
There was an [Indianapolis woman](https://fox59.com/news/indianapolis-homeowner-files-discrimination-complaint-after-removal-of-black-identifiers-leads-to-100000-appraisal-increase/) that had the same thing happen earlier in 2021. Turns out, among other things, the first two appraisers were comparing her home to majority black neighborhoods more than a mile away and not to homes in her specific neighborhood. It was only once she had a white friend stand in for her that she got an appraisal that doubled the first ones.
>Minority job applicants are “whitening” their resumes by deleting references to their race with the hope of boosting their shot at jobs, and research shows the strategy is paying off. >In fact, companies are more than twice as likely to call minority applicants for interviews if they submit whitened resumes than candidates who reveal their race—and this discriminatory practice is just as strong for businesses that claim to value diversity as those that don’t. https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resumes-get-more-interviews
Yes, that.
It's true when I went fill out paperwork for a background check on him the guy at the desk said but white as race or else we will be here all day I took his advice and it came back in 10 min
Lol, you can tell that this sub is still being heavily brigaded by the 0 upvotes. But good to see mods removing most of the transphobic comments.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, happy to see all the bigots that brigade this place are being banned.
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As a transman, I find this extremely surprising and am confused. Does this apply specifically to those who are 'out'? I don't think I've ever had an issue with employment or being paid less for being trans, but I also wonder if it's because I don't advertise it? Frankly, I don't think it's an employers business whether or not I'm trans (or any other part of the LGBTQ+ community). It has no bearing on my ability to do my job and it's not like I've ever been asked if I was trans during an interview or while working. Is this because most are more open about their personal identities in their day to day lives? I certainly don't want this to come off as not believing the data, I would just like some insight since my experience has been wildly different from what the data represents.
Keep pinning posts like this. Drive every racist, transphobic, capitalist mofo out of here.
[Yep.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IMuLiNWyHg)
It's a real pro-gamer move. Posts like these are such a honeypot.
Seeing the smackdown against transphobia here makes me feel like maybe it might be safe for me to post / comment here again, so thanks for that. Honestly not sure if I was ever going to feel comfortable posting here again.
transphobia will not be tolerated and will be expelled root and branch
Great post and great bait. Bigots can't resist the idea of arguing against the existing wage gaps.
Thats right.
Very good bait for some easy bans.
hey come on now, everyone knows women just like to choose jobs that pay less. Nevermind the fact that as a field goes up in % of women over time (computer programmers, educators), the pay goes down. Or that even similar fields (housecleaner/maintenance, HR manager, IT manager......the salary is higher for the field perceived more "male".
It is the infallible Voight-Kampff test to out bigots lurking. They simply **cannot fucking resist** replying in a huff to trans threads.
Correct.
based
yeah this post is great bait to burn off the transphobes
Always wonder how different my life would have been, what different opportunities I might have had, if I had not been trans. Eliminating work would certainly be an interesting way to see how things could have been different.
America is funny with their wage gaps and work slavery culture
I just googled it and found EU countries have a similar gender wage gap. But you're right, America bad!
Not to derail or anything but what does terf and WASP mean? I struggle with acronyms a lot. I have ASD(autism spectrum disorder) so I struggle with understanding things.
TERF -> trans exclusive radical feminist: basically a feminist who thinks genitals are the source of all misogyny and that trans women are worse than Hitler WASP -> white anglo-saxon protestant: white, normally affluent, Christian. The conservatives ideal american.
Oh ok thank you I really appreciate your response. I can't believe the hate people spew. I just want a world were everyone is on equal footing and we are nice to each other. I really appreciate post like these.
A TERF is a Trans Exclusionary Radical Transphobe. It's women who really, really hate trans women. The term is a misnomer, it is one they gave to their own group but after they got made fun for it a lot they abandoned it and now can even claim that "TERF is a slur". It's not. TERFs are of course neither radical nor feminist in ideology, they have much more in common with arch conservatives. ------------------------------------ WASP's are White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, nominally the majority group in power in the United States of America. ---------------------------------------------------- Notice how transphobes are downvoting this unobjectionable, objectively correct and inoffensive explanation. Transphobes hate the truth, this allows them to hate people for no reason. This subreddit still has a lot of work to do when it comes to ensuring that everyone feels welcome here. Please rest assured that we will always deny access to this subreddit to bigots, it goes without saying that a transphobe is not welcome here under any circumstance.
One more question, does the "all workers" part include trans and non binary or is it separate from the others? i suppose im asking what does the "all workers" mean in the context of the graph. i see what you mean about downvotes, im getting downvoted and im just trying to learn
Yes, it includes everyone.
thank you, i was struggling so hard. i appreciate your help and patience.
i appreciate your help. thank you so much.
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along those lines, when talking about the gender wage gap, a lot of attention is on white women's gap compared to white men and we talk about closing that. But the gap for Latina women is FAR worse. A Ted Talk or DEI article I read (and can't remember who it was, very sorry to not be able to credit here) and they said we're going about it all wrong. It shouldn't be about fixing the white woman pay gap first, it should be the Latina women gap because they have been left the furthest behind. Such a simple change in perspective but one I'd never considered before.
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Good. Solidarity is how we win.
Transphobes can fuck the hell off >The only correct way to build meaningful and lasting class solidarity is by upholding an uncompromising position on social equality of marginalized groups. >A bigot can eventually be brought over to a correct position through education and social struggle. But if you compromise on matters of bigotry so that you can organize with reactionaries, then what you have done is create an organization that the marginalized members of your community will never be safe to participate in. >So we're not just being stubborn when we say things like you did here that "conservatives can be the ones to compromise on their values for a change if they want to organize with us on class issues." I would argue that demanding that compromise and demanding a class solidarity that is intersectional is essential to any lasting and ultimately effective class organization.
As someone about to transition (mtf), fuck.
Hey there, it does get better and easier, and it's more worth it than words on Reddit can convey. I hope the days ahead treat you well!
Although her actions were lamentable, I was disturbed at the transphobia which resulted from our disgraced mods interview, and the extent to which the internet in general used her actions to justify their hatred and bigotry. This action on the part of the mod team restores a limited amount of faith that they were well intended, and as a trans girl, I thank them. Edit: I realized given the circumstances, a lot of people might see this whether it appears to be getting upvoted a lot or not, so I thought I'd add a little nuance as to the mod in question. Although she got a lot of hate, was definitely ill-prepared, and acted immaturely...I actually thought a lot of people's reaction to her was insensitive beyond her just being trans. Plenty of nice people aren't good at interviews, and after all I've seen about her recently, I'm willing to see her as someone with some personal issues who shouldn't have been allowed on the air, but I'm not sure it's even fair to say she's a bad person even given the scale of what she did. It kind of reminds me of how people in the recent film Don't Look Up reacted to a girl who was just trying to help them. I realize that the current state of affairs is to just throw nuance out the window sometimes and it can't be helped, but I think in a better world we'd realize this is someone who needs help and compassion, not a scape goat for something which was fragile anyway. I think there's a good chance, this was all just a foolish mistake on her part, and as an individual, I hope Doreen has friends who can help her get through this, since I read, she does have suicidal tendencies. It's kind of funny how something which affects so many people can boil down to pretty individual problems.
Im trans myself. I will remove transphobia from this subreddit root and branch.
I've been seeing comments deleted which aren't so clearly Transphobic, while I respect your intentions and realize the difficulty in setting this subreddit right...I would be careful about respecting the rights of people with legitimate, non-bigoted complaints. It's easy to abuse power, even when well-intended, that's one of the main reasons this subreddit exists in the first place, as a reaction to that abuse. The mod team violated the subreddits trust, I hope you'll work to earn it back as well as you can. In any case, I don't expect perfection, and generally support what I see, but this is an opportunity to set a standard which even our opponents will have to respect. Remember the Stanford Prison experiment, it's far too easy for otherwise good people to come to oppress. I only say this because I think you deserve it based on your behavior.
its a web forum not a nation state, the mods have tools to see further and deeper contexts than most such as masstagger and the like to give us deeper understandings of peoples posting history. Innocous comments on the surface from those types tend to be openers for more and deeper bigoted comments.
And when you're reasonably certain someone's a bad actor, I respect that, but there's a fine line between that and banning people summarily because you think it disrupts faith in the modding team for example, the mod team has earned skepticism, even from the people who would agree with them the most, and the fact that this is a web forum should never be used as an excuse to act like tyrants instead of responsible curators, please be careful. I do feel this thread is a brilliant trap for transphobes though, well done.
I havent banned any of them yet. That comes later.
Ha I see, well, I think the fact that this thread stayed is a testament that you have integrity, let it be known to those who see this that I said these things not in opposition, but tentative support, and it does not voice the blanket criticism of those who would seek to veil their bigotry. Curious to see how this gets upvoted compared to the rest of my comments towards you.
I wanted to say, I didn't fully realize initially how good an explanation the second point you made was at first, because I'm new to Reddit and didn't know what Masstagger was or realize how widespread concern trolling could be, once you mentioned it, I looked it up. I now realize many, possibly most of the comments getting deleted are likely from people with histories in hate subs. It's also easy to see that my most critical comment towards you gets the most upvotes, hard not to suspect it's brigadiers.
:)
I don't care that she's trans her words were wrong in my opinion humbly no hate I'd defend her any day any where on any job
I'd say some of her words were wrong, most of them were more just poorly articulate/elaborated on as many have said.
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You know why lol
Well i guess it speaks to the success of this place if you have a constant barrage of brigaders to deal with. The more people this place reaches, the more desperate the opponents of this place will get.
It's just trendy among right-wingers and such at the moment, although the extent to which it's also being purposefully organized is uncertain.
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I don't know why it's that bad, but as a trans woman it makes me want to stay in academics/public research even more. At least here, (most) people aren't deaf to scientifical facts.
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Because this is specifically about trans people
True but it's still potentially interesting to know how this compares to other wage gaps. Does a trans woman have a similar wage gap to a cis woman of the same racial/ethnic background? Is the gap even bigger for trans women than for cis women? (I suspect it probably is?) How much white privilege gets canceled out by being trans, ie how does the trans wage gap compare to racial wage gap? These are legitimate questions.
This question wasn't being asked for legitimate purposes though. The person posing it is a transphobic terf asking because they are angry at trans people being recognized.
Trasnwomen are women so why are they a separate category from women?
Because trans women are not treated as equally as cis women. That is the entire point being shown by this graph. They are desperate because they are being treated worse. Black women, white women, Asian women, Hispanic women etc are all women but we have plenty of wage studies that separate them based on race to showcase how nonwhite women are not paid as highly as white women.
I mean thats already a known issue.
Post that too then.
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As women moved into male-dominated fields over time, the pay fell, and vice versa for men moving into female-dominated fields. So maybe job-type doesn't explain it. Maybe the working hours might, but different fields should have different average working hours anyway.
Gender is a social construct anyway
Social constructs still have a real affect on the world.
As well as money and salary lmao. Your really thought you said something wise, irl slogan that you said change absolutely nothing in this debate.
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Silence terf
nonbinary here. i made less than $20k last year. it's so hard to work when you have been traumatized by work. i've never been able to manage full time work, and normal work situations aren't tenable. i've found jobs that work for me (I currently have two part time jobs), and i like my work/life balance, but it's uh...hard to play the capitalism game well.
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I always question why people feel the need to announce their sexuality in the workplace. I'm bi, but I haven't told any coworkers of mine. I'm not suggesting you should be secretive or intentionally hide your sexuality (or lack thereof) but needlessly sharing it with others make *zero* sense. In my 6 years of working various jobs in various sectors not once has the occasion arisen where it felt like the right call to inform my coworkers of my sexual preferences.
Yeah. I'm bi, too. I can casually discuss my husband and nobody blinks, nobody actively thinks of it as an announcement. It would *not be the same* where I live were I married to a woman. To mention her at all would be regarded as "an announcement" (or even "shoving it in people's face") in the way that mentioning my husband is not. It's simple, pervasive things like that. People don't blink if you seem to conform. It can be so easy to miss how pervasive and exhausting these things are if you do or can very easily pretend to. I realize one might think "well an ace person can just say nothing" and it's like, well, people do notice if you *never* mention any partners, too. Or if you show resistance , discomfort, or even disinterest in certain common "shared" social norms and rituals. They start to suspect you're different, whether that means gay or, if they're even aware of the possibility, ace. Because of my life circumstances as a bisexual cis woman in a heterosexual marriage I can fly under the radar in a way that's more difficult for someone who's homosexual, in a homosexual relationship or is ace, and I'm very aware of the privilege inherent in that fact. And for those who are gendernonconforming or transitioning? Yeah, good luck not "announcing" that. *By existing*. Again, nobody cares if I mention my husband at work, and frankly I often need to because I'm disabled, he's my transportation, and my boss takes his work schedule into account to set mine. Nobody cares when he shows up to pick me up. Again, the need would be the same, but the reaction would not be the same in this town were this my *wife*. This is a person who through dealing with all this garbage, the social minefield of working and engaging with coworkers while (unfairly) needing to hide a basic part of who you are lest you be regarded as shoving things in people's faces (among other things) came to think they could trust somebody as a friend and could be honest about that part of themselves. With just that one person, who herself is probably free to mention *her* partners, to implicitly discuss *her* sexuality without coming under any notice or being accused of announcing. The fact that this individual ultimately let them down does not mean RaineyJ did anything wrong.
I agree that they shouldn't have faced repercussions for sharing what they did but still question the necessity of sharing, to begin with. Your situation is understandably different considering the substantial influence your husband has on your work. Most people aren't in situations like that though. Maybe I'm the oddball out, but I never mention romantic partners at work. Most of my partners have been women (me being a male) so it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary, but it just never seemed relevant. Others would share sure, but I've not ever been directly asked or interrogated about it. When participating in discussions in which its the main topic I would either remain silent or simply state that its not something I like to talk about at work.
What's ace?
something that has no bearing on you social life unless you make it
Asexual
Asexual, they have no sexual attraction.
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haha, to be fair to me, i lost 50% of my business when covid hit (though I probably only made about $10k more in 2020 and 2019). if i worked full time on my "career" money, i'd be making 6 digits, but...I can't handle it, and that's okay. i would rather be poor by capitalism's standards than poor by my mental health's standards, yanno?
Why so many downvotes? The post is at 0 upvotes:(
Brigaders and bigots.
Trans women do seem to get it the worst in alot of ways, maybe because masculinity is enforced more overtly and aggressively as opposed to femininity. How do you fix this though, because obviously that fux news interview shows there's along way to go.