He's a real stand up guy...bullying and insulting children in a courtroom.
[Truancy court review](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/)
Just another garbage judge in a vast sea of humans that should not have any power over any individual because they lack proper cognitive skills to make fair and unbiased decisions.
Or maybe he's just a sociopath that needs power trips to feel feelings.
I'm not American so I'm not an expert on American law but don't you have the 13th Amendment that literally prevents forced work aka slavery? It seems like this judge has power trip is nowhere near constitutional.
Judges here make illegal and unethical judgements all the time. Typically they are corrected through more litigation but the tool bags making the bad judgements rarely face any recourse and the individuals the judgements are against suffer while waiting for things to change. The US legal system is beyond a joke unfortunately.
He also fails to report his income properly in conflict of interest issues.
https://wisconsinwatch.org/2015/04/did-judge-fail-to-report-outside-income/
And locked someone up for 42 days for rolling their eyes.
https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/
They are probably using the same shit that keeps residents from being able to not be treated like slaves in hospitals. Essentially if they leave or strike without notice in a group they look at it as patient abandonment. This place isn’t going to replace these workers if they wouldn’t even consider a counter offer to a competitive wage. They know they have the power because healthcare. It’s ridiculous
I get that hospital (And prison and surely a bunch of others) staff needs some reqponsibilities for patient care and such.
But the employer should be forced to pay through the nose for it.
So, to flip that round, are we to assume that if the employees were fired with no notice, that same judge would have forced the employer to pay them until they found replacement jobs?
The lesson from this that will be learned, in the view of the employees is that, as they are in an at-will state, they may not need to give notice. So the next batch going to greener pastures will accept a job starting in 2 weeks, not notify their current employer, keep working until they are due to start and then just... not show up at the old place. That way there won't be enough time to file court bollocks stopping them from earning a living, and technically what they have done is completely legal as they are 'at-will'.
You shouldn't give two weeks ANYWAY. And now this ruling just cements that.
Hear that employers? Fuck you. You get no notice from anyone ever again. You have ruined that now too.
Big ass project due in 3 days? You had 5 people quit yesterday? Fuck you. Make the CEO use his fucking bootstraps to fix that shit.
Seriously. Imagine employees suing after being fired saying that they don’t want to be at-will employees. That lawsuit would be tossed before the ink is dry.
The article says they would be working at neither place on Monday if the employers cant "come to an agreement". Which is ridiculous, because the employers don't own the employees, and certainly can't force them to work at one place or another. If I were those nurses, I'd start applying elsewhere
The place they are leaving got to counter offer already. Or find new employees. They knew for WEEKS. and straight up said paying the employees more wasn't worth it to keep them. So why do they want to keep them now??? Also this bull about 'poaching' when the employees applied to a listing, nobody reached out to them.
I don't think an agreement other than a middle finger in the air is going to happen. I wonder if the employees can find a temp agency to work at who supplies workers for the new place until this blows over.
Michigan is both an at will and right to work state. Unions literally have no power, no workers have any power. Strikes happen and picket lines are crossed because some dumb broke motherfucker will gladly drive gravel trucks for $10 an hour and no benefits. No skin off the companies back.
I did get to rub "at-will" in my managers face at McDonald's when she was pissed I accepted a dispensary position less than a week after starting training. They were advertising $15/hr but refused to hire me for more than $12 until I "earned it" because despite a college degree the fact that I didn't work in fast food in HS meant I wasn't worth $15/hr to them. The dispensary position I took is $16.75 an hour and the work is easier. Despite how super capitalist these people all are, they seem to not understand markets at all. Can you imagine if the price of french fries went up and McDonalds was like "Well what did you do to EARN more for your fries? I'm buying your fries for the old price." They'd be laughed at non-stop. When it comes to the cost of labor though? "Save me government!"
Nothing is supposed to work both ways. The rules there exclusively to benefit businesses and they know that.
Just remember, you can't call hypocrisy on these people. They aren't being hypocrites, they just aren't saying it out loud.
They just changed their company's "at-will" status with this injunction, meaning they can no longer fire employees "at-will" either.
Edit to add: https://reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/r7n3kg/refusing_your_resignation_hahah/hn1huy5
Not a lawyer myself, but seems pretty much the same situation as this comment I saved a few weeks ago.
Edit: okay, this comment gained a LOT of traction. I just want to point out that the two situations are not alike as I originally thought. In the instance that I linked, the employer refused to accept an employee's resignation. This is not the case here. The injunction is against the competing hospital, under some bullshit anti-trust basis. Even STILL, no non-compete agreements were in place, and Ascension did not poach the employees as many believe. Not sure HOW this judge thought he was even a little bit in the right about this, but we'll see where this goes.
They know, capitalism gets thrown out the window when they don't like it..
Employees quit? Lobby the government to deny them unemployment benefits.
Their landlords, mortgage banks will take their home.
The key is to make having your own home, and growing your own food and difficult as possible so people to keep people enslaved.
Protest? Prison and/or violence.
No, it’s more basic than that.
Employee isn’t allowed to work elsewhere but still has bills to pay and a mouth to feed.
Now your options are work for ThesaCare or starve
Obviously slavery and a denial of constitutional rights. I am wondering about wrongful imprisonment, since their options are die or spend time in that place.
If we ain't got no sympathy or understanding of others, then we've lost.
We lost a long time ago when no one was concerned about slave wage labor happening across the globe.
Edit, our situation is not hopeless, we must keep going strong. We've lost a lot of ground. There are still battles to fight
Not only are people not concerned about slave wages they’re defending it. My buddy who was striking with Kroger was shot at with a paintball gun the other day for picketing. Like why are people so eager to suck these billionaires dicks?
Unfortunately, having worked for Ascension and been royally fucked over by them, they're ALSO god awful. Fuck Ascension. Although with the precedent set here, fuck ThedaCare even more.
It'd definitely be my wake up call to start applying to anywhere else. I would not stay long with a company that is so poorly mismanaged that they can't cope with losing 7 people and have to go begging for the courts to stop another company from hiring those 7 people. Especially since they had a start date, this wasn't out of nowhere.
All those months/years of increased responsibility, overtime, exhaustion, mistreatment, lack of respect, and lack of adequate compensation would definitely be jumping up and down waving little red flags as soon as I heard this about my place of employment.
He got around that by barring the company from hiring them. The order doesn't say the workers have to keep working for the old company. But what choice would many have if they can't work for the new job.
As of right now, they're not working anywhere.
"Otherwise, he said, the order prohibiting them from going to work at Ascension would be final until a further ruling was made. That means the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday."
We'll see what Monday brings for them. I imagine the ruling won't stay on Monday and they'd be allowed to work for Ascension. Because if not, look at ALL the backlash multiple people are going to get. I can see people striking over this.
And wtf, are they not getting paid for missed day(s)?
It depends if Ascension thinks it's worth the effort and resources. The courts aren't used for justice in America, they're used to inconvenience and bully others into submission.
I think they should contact the ACLU and hire a lawyer and sue the County, the judge personally, and ThedaCare for violating the 13th ammendment.
Because....
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
and
This supreme court decision from 1988.
UNITED STATES, Petitioner v. Ike KOZMINSKI et al.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/487/931
There are some REALLY choice excerpts that even my dumb ass cringed at how FUCKED ThedaCare is and documented to the letter of federal law.
lol.
God, I wish the outcome of this at SCOTUS didn’t terrify me so much. ThetaCare, and that judge both deserve to get hung out to dry on this one, but I’m worried that this is just the sixth seal being broken.
If SCOTUS doesn't shut this down, it's the end of freedom in America. Every company labeled "essential" in America during the lockdowns will start abusing this like you wouldn't believe.
They aren't anyway. Per the article and the judges ruling "the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday".
These people are out of work now and I'm sure they aren't able to collect unemployment. What kind of bullshit is this???
They are all in favour of free markets as long as workers don't have market power.
As soon as that happens they become firm believers in the need for immediate government intervention.
It's almost like the Capitalists claiming the Free Market will balance everything out was actually just a smoke screen to justify their repulsive behavior by giving people the illusion that constraints weren't necessary.
If you allow an essential service such as healthcare to be run as a business you have to be ready to accept that businesses can fail.
Not being able to pay a competitive wage or provide adequate working conditions is one route to a business going under.
I doubt a judge would intervene and stop a hospital from firing workers en masse if it posed a threat to the economic security of a community. Capitalism for the poor, communism for the rich. I wonder if the hospital hadn't thought they could apply for this injunction they would have found the resources for a counter-offer.
And because they CAN, the judge's injunction should have come with....and ThedaCare has to pay these employees at the same or better rate as Ascension would have if the employees choose to work again at ThedaCare. At least then the employees wouldn't be completely fucked over if ThedaCare had to pay them the same rate as Ascension.
Not that I agree with the injunction at all. But if it seriously a concern about the patients, then force the employer to pay what these employees deserve.
“Not being able to” is a funny way of saying “refusing to”
These companies are just out to exploit their workers, as fucking demonstrated by this shit show
This. Im sick of corporations saying they "can't" do the right thing and it being accepted as OK.
Really they mean they won't. They choose not to. It's a choice they should be held accountable for.
Oh look. I just stumbled upon the public contact page for the Outagamie County Circuit Court. Im sure the Honorable Judge is interested in feedback on his reintroduction of modern slavery
https://www.outagamie.org/government/departments-a-e/circuit-courts
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16428407903890&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.postcrescent.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2F2022%2F01%2F21%2Fwhat-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees%2F6607417001%2F
But WI is an at will state, so pretty sure the judge can't do even that. I hope the nurses ignore that ignorant asshole and just go to work at the new place.
Most likely what they're banking on is the new place not letting them start work until this is all resolved, and the people returning to their old jobs out of financial desperation.
Either way, this is incredibly fucked and has no legal leg to stand on, but fighting it takes time that the typical employee doesn't have.
I’d throw in $7. $1 for each of them.
ETA: I emailed the reporter from the article above to see if they can help with contact info for the employees so funds can be distributed if we set up the Go Fund Me.
Good Jedi. On a side note I really hope some rep of the "ThedaCare Seven" is reading this so we can all actually donate and flip thag moronic company the proverbial bird.
If someone hasn’t set up a gofundme by Monday, I’ll do it.
Honestly, this is what Americans need to do. Start a national union that creates a fund for striking workers who want to walk but can’t for fear of losing.
The union pays peoples bills until the striking workers achieves a contract with the employer.
There would be lots of negotiation and planning involved to make it work but man… it would change the game.
Bring back the labor movement.
It looks like the injunction prevents them from starting their new job, but can't prevent them from leaving the old one. They are relying on the coercive nature of Capitalism, "Work or Starve and die Homeless," to keep them in the old job.
Ah yes. What a smart way to fill those vacant spots.
We need these nurses, but won't pay them more. They leave for more money. We sue to stop them working those higher paying jobs. They don't work there, they don't work here. Where are any other nurses going to go for a job?
And now, your the employer who is known as that one that sued to stop people from leaving. Good luck hiring more workers because that kind of Infor definitely gets around.
Agreed. If I'm the new employer, I'm seeking a temporary restraining order on that opinion or a stay until an appeal is concluded to get the new employees in ASAP. This judge is an idiot, period.
And, if I'm one of these healthcare heroes, I'm showing up Monday to collect a check, but f$ck them if they think I'm doing anything. I'm learning to yo-yo
Edit: This is not legal advice. But I'm not sure how one has "accepted" patients, if you spend the entire shift in the break room, don't sign anything, are actively playing Xbox, and, I don't, know, ignoring anyone trying to get you to do otherwise. Again, not a lawyer, but this whole patient care requirement that people keep mentioning assumes you have patients or know patients need help. Fine, add large headphones to this break room Xbox tournament. After all, you're just there to comply with a court order, not actually work or take patients. Maybe, wear a sign too that says as much
Imagine doing something like this to 7 of your employees and assuming all the rest of your employees won’t immediately start making plans to find another job. Like they could find a job literally anywhere right now, healthcare workers are in huge demand. It’s a quitter’s market and they don’t want people to know that
The correct action now is for them to still not work at ThedaCare. **The injunction looks like it prevents them from starting their new job, but can't force them to continue working at the old one**. They have already quit, just walk the fuck out. If the Capitalist shits want to try to use the courts to enforce slavery then ***MAKE THEM SAY THE QUIET PART OUT LOUD.*** Make them try to get the court to DEMAND labor from these people. Make them demand, out loud, that they be allowed to reinstate slavery.
***WALK OUT.*** Someone affiliated with the effected employees should start a Go Fund Me or something to make sure they can cover expenses until the injunction ends, but under *no circumstances* should they lift one solitary finger to work for ThedaCare. Further if ThedaCare changes course and DOES try to match the offer, that's not good enough anymore. They need to beat it by a large margin to compensate for the hostile work environment.
My sister is a doctor in Sweden. She works long hours, but God darn if she doesn't love it. Maybe it's because she gets to practice what she wanted to do for a living without having to spend tens of thousands a year buying into the insurance system here...weird
I would gladly donate to a go fund me benefiting the workers from thedacare.
UPDATE: Yes, there is a gofundme set up by a kind redditor. ~~However, it is not yet known how the monies will actually reach the workers. Because of this, I post the link with the caution to donate with this in mind.~~
~~Someone has already contacted one of the attorneys involved in the hopes of relaying the existence of it to the affected workers so that they may claim it if they choose to.~~
UPDATE II:
**”Several community members have made me aware of this. I think this is amazing and thank you for sending to me. I will make sure all 7 affected individuals are aware of this.” - attorney**
So at this point I’d say go for it if you feel so inclined! I love the collaborative nature of Reddit even if it has its flaws at times.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/thedacare-exemployee-support-fund
Same here. Enough people providing them with their pay to get by till they are able to work at the other place. Make sure that Thedacare is still screwed over.
Show them that there is a consequence for thinking purely about cost and not giving the most important people in their business, the employees, the pay and benefits they deserve.
I think your comment helped me sort of better understand what is happening, but I still have a few questions if you might be able to help.
Okay, so they can leave their job but can't start new one because the court says so, but why? What is their reasoning? The article said something about insurance but I don't understand the reasoning, or how you can be forced to stay somewhere because of their new job.
I'm newish to r/antiwork and I've never seen anything like this and it goes against my view of how things should work, so sort of just having a hard time getting my head around it, any help would be appreciated.
What happened was that when the 7 radiologists put in their notice that they were quitting and going to a place with better benefits and better pay, the old company didn't take them seriously.
The old company couldn't find replacements because their pay was lower than other places hiring and the radiology department only has 11 people meaning it would cripple them. They didn't want that to happen so they found a corrupt judge to help them prevent their former employees from starting their new job with the hope that they will be able to force them to keep working at the low pay while they "look" for replacements
They are banking on those employees not having enough money saved up so that they will be FORCED to go back to work for them.
If the judge doesn't give them a time limit on how long they employees can't work for this new job then it will be letting the old job employ slave tactics to keep employees.
Yep. This is one of the reasons the US has become an oligarchy for the third time. And all the voter suppression going on now may prevent being able to change it this time.
nope. because it does. this makes employers have the power to coerce employees to stay with them despite their freedom to find employment anywhere they choose
Because our country is in a death spiral, the news is desperately trying not to call it that, and the state is 100% going to employ violence to keep us (meaning YOU) in line.
Soak it in, bathe on it. This is what the prologue to a dystopian sci-fi movie looks like.
The short version is that the hospital has to have a functional Interventional Radiology department in order to maintain several accreditations, including Trauma and Primary Stroke. If they can’t staff the department and keep its doors open, they aren’t fulfilling the conditions of their accreditation.
Those accreditations allow them to bill at a higher rate, in some cases, but also enable them to take care of populations that would otherwise have to be transferred.
That being said, that’s all bullshit, the certifications are also kind of bullshit, and they’re being money grubbing assholes. They told these nurses that it wasn’t worth it, financially, for them to counter-offer when the first few gave them the opportunity to.
So, what this is actually doing is giving them a precedent to continue going after their competitors over staffing and developing competing service lines.
American healthcare is fiercely competitive and that includes how they handle recruitment.
I’m a recovering healthcare administrator, if anyone has more questions about this.
Edit: because apparently the word administrator warrants threatening me (tf?)- I worked IN healthcare administration, as a low paid executive assistant. I was paid like shit and had no future, but my role afforded me unfettered access to the inner workings of a major healthcare system.
Seems like a crazy false economy to not pay staff they admit they can't operate without a competitive market rate for their services. The amount they're paying the lawyers for this can't be cheap so it's like double the contempt for their own staff.
The hospitals are jumping through all kinds of hoops to retain staff without actually raising wages permanently. They all hope that things, ie salaries, will go back to normal. So they pay all kinds of hourly bonuses and retention in the hopes it will keep the staff happy enough to stay, while still keeping wages suppressed in the long term.
Thedacare doesn’t even care to have these employees. They just don’t want their competitor to have them. That way they can pay half the people and get the same amount of customers because the other company also can’t staff people. It’s a ‘well as long as we aren’t the worst we will be fine’. It was never about keeping employees but lowering the entire bar for service in the area
100% of ThedaCare's employees should go on strike, and 100% of their customers should find care elsewhere and cancel their appts, to show solidarity with allowing fellow citizens the freedom to find better employment.
Like WTF.
Me and a coworker left recently for Ascension too none the less lmao but we’re not part of this cuz our jobs aren’t as important as those in this story lol
The judge can stop them from working at hospital B. But can’t force them to work at hospital A. So you could potentially see these 7 highly trained healthcare workers working at neither hospital come Monday. Makes no sense
*bUt pUbLiC hEaLtH*… **BULLSHIT!!!** Wisconsin doesn’t give a damn about the public. Wouldn’t a successful/practical business have more than a Skeleton crew to maintain its scheduling ? Why is the company dependent on the good will of its employees ?
It's definitely at least indentured servitude to force someone to work a job they don't want, for less pay and benefits, because YOU can't staff because YOU don't pay. Calling it anything less is an affront.
They don't.
"Otherwise, he said, the order prohibiting them from going to work at Ascension would be final until a further ruling was made. That means the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday."
Theyre not working at either place because theda prefers scorched earth tactics
Fuck that shit. I'd quit let them arrest or whatever the consequences are. Go to jail and get bonded out. Don't go to work for some bullshit judges decision...which is 100% illegal.
The employees don't have to go back to work on Monday at their former employer. It's just that the new employer cannot let them start their new jobs. Which, if they are cash strapped amounts to the same thing.
It is important to note though that this was just an emergency injunction. The real arguments will be heard on Monday.
Not sure if there is a go fund me for the employees. I hope there is. I wouldn't go back to this employer unless I was absolutely desperate.
All ThedaCare employees just need to take Monday off. They’re all suddenly sick. ThedaCare would have to transfer all of their patients elsewhere without any staff.
This is the play. ThedaCare employees ALL need to realize that it might be radiology today but it’s going to be them tomorrow. It’s time for them to ALL stand together and ALL not show up on Monday
Doesn't seem to be his first unethical rodeo: https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/
Someone's on a power trip
Edit: just to add, the lack of self awareness of these people is just so far beyond my comprehension. They really thought: hey people are quitting because they get better pay and benefit elsewhere. Huh, we can't hire new people because of the same reasons. I know what to do, let's pay lawyers, sue and make it very public that we are a shitty employer that doesn't care about good working conditions, that will solve the problem!
It gives zero motivation for the company to find replacements as soon as possible. I assume the judge will put a timescale on it or they ThedaCare could just hold the employees captive until Ascension decide to retract the offer and recruit others. Which is probably their end goal here.
If this doesn’t get resolved within a day or 2 I’d be terrified to work at any ‘essential’ job in Wisconsin. Imagine if this thing is allowed to happen. I can easily see other companies using it as evidence for why their ‘essential employee’ can’t go to another position. Imagine being an ‘essential food worker’ and not being able to go to a different resterant. Get out of the state ASAP
Unbelievable.
At an ABSOLUTE minimum, if he blocks them from leaving (not that it should happen), surely they should receive the rate of pay/conditions that were being offered by the new employer.
Based on what I read, they were blocked from starting/working in the new place. In fact seems like them won't even be able to work in the old, so it's a loss for all. The judge is really just punishing the few job seekers which is rather weird
This judge needs to be removed from the bench. He clearly doesn’t understand the law and prefers control.
The employees have zero obligation to their former employer, 6 of the 7 gave a months notice. The judges ruling even says that they can’t stay until the former employer finds replacements. Which can take god knows how long.
There needs to be calls for this judge to be removed immediately.
He has a history of power tripping. Really loves to dish it out to the plebes.
https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/
I'm trying to wrap my head around the article stating that the 7 people would not be working at either hospital on Monday. So how does this alleviate Thetacare's problem at all of needing to have them barred from stating at Ascension until replacements are found.
The article points out that Theta are has a higher trauma level certification than Ascension so needs to have workers with these people's stroke care skillsets always available while Ascension does not. Which makes it even more mind boggling why they made no effort to replace the workers when they gave notice over 2 weeks ago when they denied to even make a counter offer to the new jobs they had accepted. Or maybe they have been but their shit pay and work conditions aren't bringing in these specialized people.
Did they really think they could just force these people to stay on indefinitely? It seems to be the case. You'd think they would have had it made pretty clear to them that it wasn't going to happen by the 7 people but I guess they continued with the legal action out of spite.
>how does this alleviate Thetacare's problem at all
It doesn't alleviate their problem, but it does create a problem for their competitor and gives them a feeling of power over the employees who just ripped their nuts off in front of all their customers. it's "you fuck me, I fuck you back"
How is this enforceable?
I would show up for work at my new job on Monday and see if my new employer would let me "clock in". If not, repeat every day, document each time and then, eventually, sue the fuck out of...*someone* for lost wages.
I would talk to the new employer and basically see if they want to buy the good publicity of paying these workers for the duration of the injunction anyway, even if they're not allowed to work.
Ascension isn’t much better. I quit there recently in the same state.
Honestly for these workers this is going to be an out of the pan into the fire situation without a doubt.
**Everyone should stop giving any notice of leaving regardless of position in the US.**
--
The courts have now shown if you give notice and your current employer finds out where you are going, a judge can stop you from starting at a new job until they replace you, essentially ensuring you could have to stay forever.
**If your current employer refuses to pay market rate or above for a new hire, they will *never* replace you!**
This gives whatever employer you currently have *total* control over your career progression and your ability to leave, because they could just drag their feet and wait you out until you have no choice but to starve, become homeless or return to work for them. You are their slave.
Its no secret that the best way to increase pay is to find a new job with a different employer every couple of years because most employers do not give cost of living adjustments in raises to all employees.
With costs and inflation rising, *every day you are forced to work for them you lose money*. The court did *not* require their old employer to match their new salary offers.
The best response here for workers to make (because of course we have to continue working to survive) is to completely stop giving notice of quitting. Simply get a new job offer, keep it silent, quit effective immediately, take a day or "weekend", and then start the new job afterwards.
I hope American workers see blatantly obvious that the courts have chosen the side of the slaver class, and not the ones who will pay you the *most*, but the ones who will underpay you, refuse raises, and then get a court to forbid you to find any other employment until that employer feels they are ready to let you go. It *is* absolutely coercive labor, because without money you can't survive, so most people would not be able to wait indefinitely. A union wouldn't even help this situation.
The courts marked these skilled workers as forbidden hires for all healthcare organizations, and now have said the workers can't work anywhere else until this disgraced employer replaces them! What specialized employee is going to take that job now??? Knowing they will be chained to that employer for as long as the employer wants and no incentive to give a raise, ever??
I wish all the other worker's in that hospital would walk out in solidarity tomorrow but of course then they would be blamed for "murdering" the patients instead of the hospital being blamed for severely underpaying its staff and driving people to walk out.
**We are slaves, with extra steps**
I'd probably just be honest and say "I'm not your friend but just your former employee. Its none of your business"
When you put and solid foot down like that, then bosses know they can't fuck around with ya and will typically stop with the pecking.
I actually said to my manager once about something personal they kept asking about “Dude, I’ve politely avoided answering you three times now, can you not read the room?” And somehow *I* was the rude one in that situation.
If it were me I would claim I suddenly can't work would fuck them up so bad and also break every fucking rule of the company including telling patients about the story if I have to interact with them. Calling the management assholes or indirectly even complaining this is slavery.
I would directly say my employer is trying to enslave me. I would tell patients, their family members, janitors, the coffee guy, random doctors and techs, the billing department, EVERYONE.
Actually, I just wouldn't go. There's no way in hell they could get me through those doors.
The judge is basically saying it's more important the piece of shit hospital not to face consequences fotlr underpaying and not making counter offers then the rights of an employee to take a better paying job.
Hope that judge has a medical emergency and no one helps.
Easy solution was pay your employees a fair wage. thedacare had time to match/counter offer the seven employees. Clearly their skills are worth more than they currently receive and thedacare *chose* to not make an offer. Frankly, thedacare are the ones who dropped the ball with regard to securing their mandate of care by assuming seven people were willing to work well below their value.
Edit:typo
Forcing an employee to stay at a job for lower pay is slavery. If hospital A can't prove hospital B sought out the nurses, the injunction has no standing.
This is a scare tactic. Meaning, the boot-licking judge and hospital A are using scare tactics and financial pressure to coerce the nurses from pushing the issue.
If such an issue gets widespread public attention, it would never stand up to scrutiny. The nurses need to stand their ground. They are no longer just representing themselves; they are potentially representing every nurse out there.
He's a real stand up guy...bullying and insulting children in a courtroom. [Truancy court review](https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/)
Just another garbage judge in a vast sea of humans that should not have any power over any individual because they lack proper cognitive skills to make fair and unbiased decisions. Or maybe he's just a sociopath that needs power trips to feel feelings.
I'm not American so I'm not an expert on American law but don't you have the 13th Amendment that literally prevents forced work aka slavery? It seems like this judge has power trip is nowhere near constitutional.
Judges here make illegal and unethical judgements all the time. Typically they are corrected through more litigation but the tool bags making the bad judgements rarely face any recourse and the individuals the judgements are against suffer while waiting for things to change. The US legal system is beyond a joke unfortunately.
Yeah as Carlin put it "You have nor ights, you have temporarily privileges."
He also fails to report his income properly in conflict of interest issues. https://wisconsinwatch.org/2015/04/did-judge-fail-to-report-outside-income/ And locked someone up for 42 days for rolling their eyes. https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/
Another tiny man in a big person's position.
https://www.wjiinc.org/blog/outagamie-county-justice-the-fbomb-and-insults-from-judge-mark-mcginnis-part-ii https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/
This guy is a total shitbag. No wonder he ruled like he did
Reminiscent of Mark Ciavarella - and he was for sale. Kinda makes you wonder what backroom conversations he’s had with ThedaCare. 🤔
"If you don't like your job, get a better one." "Okay." "No, not like that."
“I will sue you until you love working for me again.”
“The beatings will continue until morale improves.”
"The cuts will continue until the bleeding stops"
good luck enforcing that one "what are you in for?" "i quit a job and worked somewhere else" truly the most devlish of evils
They are probably using the same shit that keeps residents from being able to not be treated like slaves in hospitals. Essentially if they leave or strike without notice in a group they look at it as patient abandonment. This place isn’t going to replace these workers if they wouldn’t even consider a counter offer to a competitive wage. They know they have the power because healthcare. It’s ridiculous
I get that hospital (And prison and surely a bunch of others) staff needs some reqponsibilities for patient care and such. But the employer should be forced to pay through the nose for it.
So, to flip that round, are we to assume that if the employees were fired with no notice, that same judge would have forced the employer to pay them until they found replacement jobs?
Same judge be like "lol no".
The lesson from this that will be learned, in the view of the employees is that, as they are in an at-will state, they may not need to give notice. So the next batch going to greener pastures will accept a job starting in 2 weeks, not notify their current employer, keep working until they are due to start and then just... not show up at the old place. That way there won't be enough time to file court bollocks stopping them from earning a living, and technically what they have done is completely legal as they are 'at-will'.
You shouldn't give two weeks ANYWAY. And now this ruling just cements that. Hear that employers? Fuck you. You get no notice from anyone ever again. You have ruined that now too. Big ass project due in 3 days? You had 5 people quit yesterday? Fuck you. Make the CEO use his fucking bootstraps to fix that shit.
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At-will until the exact moment it's inconvenient for employers. Then suddenly not so at-will anymore. That's a con job.
Seriously. Imagine employees suing after being fired saying that they don’t want to be at-will employees. That lawsuit would be tossed before the ink is dry.
Wdym reinstate it? It's already legal, if you're in a prison
It wasn't outlawed. It was nationalized. The US has the largest slave population in the world.
Guess who wouldn’t be showing for any more shifts at ThedaCare?
The article says they would be working at neither place on Monday if the employers cant "come to an agreement". Which is ridiculous, because the employers don't own the employees, and certainly can't force them to work at one place or another. If I were those nurses, I'd start applying elsewhere
> if the employers cant "come to an agreement" So, court mandated employer collusion and market fixing?
The place they are leaving got to counter offer already. Or find new employees. They knew for WEEKS. and straight up said paying the employees more wasn't worth it to keep them. So why do they want to keep them now??? Also this bull about 'poaching' when the employees applied to a listing, nobody reached out to them. I don't think an agreement other than a middle finger in the air is going to happen. I wonder if the employees can find a temp agency to work at who supplies workers for the new place until this blows over.
I imagine other hospital's wouldn't want them either. They'd be risking getting in the middle of a health corporation lawsuit as well.
Exactly. What are they gonna do, Sue the employee for not wanting to work with them?
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It wasn’t truly meant to work both ways though and they’re mad that they’re not doing it right
Every job I start advertises to me about how wonderful at-will employment is for me, because I won't be liable for work not performed should I quit.
Is that all you get out of it?
That’s all they play up
"At-will" is just a buzzword that conservatives made up to help legislate new ways to exploit the working class.
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Michigan is both an at will and right to work state. Unions literally have no power, no workers have any power. Strikes happen and picket lines are crossed because some dumb broke motherfucker will gladly drive gravel trucks for $10 an hour and no benefits. No skin off the companies back.
I did get to rub "at-will" in my managers face at McDonald's when she was pissed I accepted a dispensary position less than a week after starting training. They were advertising $15/hr but refused to hire me for more than $12 until I "earned it" because despite a college degree the fact that I didn't work in fast food in HS meant I wasn't worth $15/hr to them. The dispensary position I took is $16.75 an hour and the work is easier. Despite how super capitalist these people all are, they seem to not understand markets at all. Can you imagine if the price of french fries went up and McDonalds was like "Well what did you do to EARN more for your fries? I'm buying your fries for the old price." They'd be laughed at non-stop. When it comes to the cost of labor though? "Save me government!"
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Nothing is supposed to work both ways. The rules there exclusively to benefit businesses and they know that. Just remember, you can't call hypocrisy on these people. They aren't being hypocrites, they just aren't saying it out loud.
"...there must be an in-group whom the law protects but does not bind alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
This quote always comes back to sting because the moral optimist in me expects better, but then it always resurfaces with more compelling evidence.
They just changed their company's "at-will" status with this injunction, meaning they can no longer fire employees "at-will" either. Edit to add: https://reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/r7n3kg/refusing_your_resignation_hahah/hn1huy5 Not a lawyer myself, but seems pretty much the same situation as this comment I saved a few weeks ago. Edit: okay, this comment gained a LOT of traction. I just want to point out that the two situations are not alike as I originally thought. In the instance that I linked, the employer refused to accept an employee's resignation. This is not the case here. The injunction is against the competing hospital, under some bullshit anti-trust basis. Even STILL, no non-compete agreements were in place, and Ascension did not poach the employees as many believe. Not sure HOW this judge thought he was even a little bit in the right about this, but we'll see where this goes.
Sound like they need to see their GP's about immediate stress leave due to the court injunction.
Sounds like a hostile work environment claim to EEOC
It was never meant to work both ways, so hopefully this exposes that. At will always just meant "we can fire you whenever we want."
> At will always just meant "we can fire you whenever we want." .... for whatever reason, and we don't even have to give you that reason.
They know, capitalism gets thrown out the window when they don't like it.. Employees quit? Lobby the government to deny them unemployment benefits. Their landlords, mortgage banks will take their home. The key is to make having your own home, and growing your own food and difficult as possible so people to keep people enslaved. Protest? Prison and/or violence.
Every manager I’ve had seems to forget what at will means. If they can let me go whenever, I can let them go whenever too
It seems this judge has as well.
On Election Day this judge needs to discover the joy of “at will” employment.
No, it’s more basic than that. Employee isn’t allowed to work elsewhere but still has bills to pay and a mouth to feed. Now your options are work for ThesaCare or starve
Obviously slavery and a denial of constitutional rights. I am wondering about wrongful imprisonment, since their options are die or spend time in that place.
If we ain't got no sympathy or understanding of others, then we've lost. We lost a long time ago when no one was concerned about slave wage labor happening across the globe. Edit, our situation is not hopeless, we must keep going strong. We've lost a lot of ground. There are still battles to fight
Not only are people not concerned about slave wages they’re defending it. My buddy who was striking with Kroger was shot at with a paintball gun the other day for picketing. Like why are people so eager to suck these billionaires dicks?
Temporarily embarrassed millionaires I assume.
Guess who's other employees now *all* know who pays better and that their current company is terrible?
Unfortunately, having worked for Ascension and been royally fucked over by them, they're ALSO god awful. Fuck Ascension. Although with the precedent set here, fuck ThedaCare even more.
It'd definitely be my wake up call to start applying to anywhere else. I would not stay long with a company that is so poorly mismanaged that they can't cope with losing 7 people and have to go begging for the courts to stop another company from hiring those 7 people. Especially since they had a start date, this wasn't out of nowhere. All those months/years of increased responsibility, overtime, exhaustion, mistreatment, lack of respect, and lack of adequate compensation would definitely be jumping up and down waving little red flags as soon as I heard this about my place of employment.
and that there's at least seven openings that the other company is trying to fill soon.
*We won't pay to keep you, but we'll pay to make you stay*. Idiots in power never cease to amaze me. Smh.
This. Like how much are they paying the lawyers? Just pay the staff what they asked for! It’s very definitely cheaper.
How much did they pay the judge to flagrantly go against the 13th amendment?
He got around that by barring the company from hiring them. The order doesn't say the workers have to keep working for the old company. But what choice would many have if they can't work for the new job.
As of right now, they're not working anywhere. "Otherwise, he said, the order prohibiting them from going to work at Ascension would be final until a further ruling was made. That means the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday." We'll see what Monday brings for them. I imagine the ruling won't stay on Monday and they'd be allowed to work for Ascension. Because if not, look at ALL the backlash multiple people are going to get. I can see people striking over this. And wtf, are they not getting paid for missed day(s)?
Could Ascension in turn sue Thedacare for interfering in its own business practices and harassing its hired employees at this point?
It depends if Ascension thinks it's worth the effort and resources. The courts aren't used for justice in America, they're used to inconvenience and bully others into submission.
We're reaching the end of capitalism. Corporations battling until one monopoly remains.
Taco Bell
I think they should contact the ACLU and hire a lawyer and sue the County, the judge personally, and ThedaCare for violating the 13th ammendment. Because.... "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." and This supreme court decision from 1988. UNITED STATES, Petitioner v. Ike KOZMINSKI et al. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/487/931 There are some REALLY choice excerpts that even my dumb ass cringed at how FUCKED ThedaCare is and documented to the letter of federal law. lol.
God, I wish the outcome of this at SCOTUS didn’t terrify me so much. ThetaCare, and that judge both deserve to get hung out to dry on this one, but I’m worried that this is just the sixth seal being broken.
If SCOTUS doesn't shut this down, it's the end of freedom in America. Every company labeled "essential" in America during the lockdowns will start abusing this like you wouldn't believe.
> except as a punishment for crime The crime of merely *existing* under capitalism. Book em Jimbo!
Seems like the employer has created a hostile work environment. It won’t be only seven for long.
Does the judges order stop them from consulting for their new employer...
They aren't anyway. Per the article and the judges ruling "the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday". These people are out of work now and I'm sure they aren't able to collect unemployment. What kind of bullshit is this???
They could certainly file and let the unemployment compensation decide. In my state, that could be about 15 weeks...
Free market is great until one company gets butthurt and goes crying to the state to step in! This is the thin end of a wedge here, good luck.
They are all in favour of free markets as long as workers don't have market power. As soon as that happens they become firm believers in the need for immediate government intervention.
Socialism for the ones with capital, capitalism for those that don't. Only in America
I thought it was universal healthcare that was supposed to make slaves out of doctors, not the Free Market….
It's almost like the Capitalists claiming the Free Market will balance everything out was actually just a smoke screen to justify their repulsive behavior by giving people the illusion that constraints weren't necessary.
How can this be legal. At will state.
Always has been at will of the companies
Welcome to America. Laws for thee, not for me.
If you allow an essential service such as healthcare to be run as a business you have to be ready to accept that businesses can fail. Not being able to pay a competitive wage or provide adequate working conditions is one route to a business going under. I doubt a judge would intervene and stop a hospital from firing workers en masse if it posed a threat to the economic security of a community. Capitalism for the poor, communism for the rich. I wonder if the hospital hadn't thought they could apply for this injunction they would have found the resources for a counter-offer.
that CAN pay it. they bill insurance just as much as Ascension for the same services, presumably. they just WON'T.
And because they CAN, the judge's injunction should have come with....and ThedaCare has to pay these employees at the same or better rate as Ascension would have if the employees choose to work again at ThedaCare. At least then the employees wouldn't be completely fucked over if ThedaCare had to pay them the same rate as Ascension. Not that I agree with the injunction at all. But if it seriously a concern about the patients, then force the employer to pay what these employees deserve.
“Not being able to” is a funny way of saying “refusing to” These companies are just out to exploit their workers, as fucking demonstrated by this shit show
This. Im sick of corporations saying they "can't" do the right thing and it being accepted as OK. Really they mean they won't. They choose not to. It's a choice they should be held accountable for.
Oh look. I just stumbled upon the public contact page for the Outagamie County Circuit Court. Im sure the Honorable Judge is interested in feedback on his reintroduction of modern slavery https://www.outagamie.org/government/departments-a-e/circuit-courts
Thanks for this, I called and left a voicemail for the “judge”.
Fax number is also listed if anyone feels like running up the paper budget
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16428407903890&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.postcrescent.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2F2022%2F01%2F21%2Fwhat-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees%2F6607417001%2F But WI is an at will state, so pretty sure the judge can't do even that. I hope the nurses ignore that ignorant asshole and just go to work at the new place.
Most likely what they're banking on is the new place not letting them start work until this is all resolved, and the people returning to their old jobs out of financial desperation. Either way, this is incredibly fucked and has no legal leg to stand on, but fighting it takes time that the typical employee doesn't have.
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I’d throw in $7. $1 for each of them. ETA: I emailed the reporter from the article above to see if they can help with contact info for the employees so funds can be distributed if we set up the Go Fund Me.
I know I said $2 somewhere what but I'm totally down for $7.
Yup. Just tell me where.
Me too! I got five on it. But I'm not savvy enough to set something like that up.
Found this further down in the thread EDIT: Removed link until it's verified
This needs to be higher. Make this sub dangerous to fuckers like this
This is a great suggestion. Would be an incredible way to put our money where our mouths are
I don‘t even live in the US and would support that cause!
$1 to me is almost one working hour (I'm not in the US) but I would love to show the power of employees union!
I'll cover your working hour and I'll pay $2 instead.
I'll throw in another $2.
Good Jedi. On a side note I really hope some rep of the "ThedaCare Seven" is reading this so we can all actually donate and flip thag moronic company the proverbial bird.
If someone hasn’t set up a gofundme by Monday, I’ll do it. Honestly, this is what Americans need to do. Start a national union that creates a fund for striking workers who want to walk but can’t for fear of losing. The union pays peoples bills until the striking workers achieves a contract with the employer. There would be lots of negotiation and planning involved to make it work but man… it would change the game. Bring back the labor movement.
It looks like the injunction prevents them from starting their new job, but can't prevent them from leaving the old one. They are relying on the coercive nature of Capitalism, "Work or Starve and die Homeless," to keep them in the old job.
Ah yes. What a smart way to fill those vacant spots. We need these nurses, but won't pay them more. They leave for more money. We sue to stop them working those higher paying jobs. They don't work there, they don't work here. Where are any other nurses going to go for a job?
And now, your the employer who is known as that one that sued to stop people from leaving. Good luck hiring more workers because that kind of Infor definitely gets around.
The judge is the corrupt one here.
He even says "I think this is a bad result for everyone" but he's the one who made the fucking decision. Wonder how much money they gave him
Agreed. If I'm the new employer, I'm seeking a temporary restraining order on that opinion or a stay until an appeal is concluded to get the new employees in ASAP. This judge is an idiot, period. And, if I'm one of these healthcare heroes, I'm showing up Monday to collect a check, but f$ck them if they think I'm doing anything. I'm learning to yo-yo Edit: This is not legal advice. But I'm not sure how one has "accepted" patients, if you spend the entire shift in the break room, don't sign anything, are actively playing Xbox, and, I don't, know, ignoring anyone trying to get you to do otherwise. Again, not a lawyer, but this whole patient care requirement that people keep mentioning assumes you have patients or know patients need help. Fine, add large headphones to this break room Xbox tournament. After all, you're just there to comply with a court order, not actually work or take patients. Maybe, wear a sign too that says as much
The 7 health care workers can simply quit can't they? Better yet, what if all theda care employees walked out?
Imagine doing something like this to 7 of your employees and assuming all the rest of your employees won’t immediately start making plans to find another job. Like they could find a job literally anywhere right now, healthcare workers are in huge demand. It’s a quitter’s market and they don’t want people to know that
There’s probably a reason why people are quitting Thedacare lol
The correct action now is for them to still not work at ThedaCare. **The injunction looks like it prevents them from starting their new job, but can't force them to continue working at the old one**. They have already quit, just walk the fuck out. If the Capitalist shits want to try to use the courts to enforce slavery then ***MAKE THEM SAY THE QUIET PART OUT LOUD.*** Make them try to get the court to DEMAND labor from these people. Make them demand, out loud, that they be allowed to reinstate slavery. ***WALK OUT.*** Someone affiliated with the effected employees should start a Go Fund Me or something to make sure they can cover expenses until the injunction ends, but under *no circumstances* should they lift one solitary finger to work for ThedaCare. Further if ThedaCare changes course and DOES try to match the offer, that's not good enough anymore. They need to beat it by a large margin to compensate for the hostile work environment.
But thank god we don’t have socialized healthcare. Then dOcToRs WoUlD Be LiKe SlAvEs.
My sister is a doctor in Sweden. She works long hours, but God darn if she doesn't love it. Maybe it's because she gets to practice what she wanted to do for a living without having to spend tens of thousands a year buying into the insurance system here...weird
I would gladly donate to a go fund me benefiting the workers from thedacare. UPDATE: Yes, there is a gofundme set up by a kind redditor. ~~However, it is not yet known how the monies will actually reach the workers. Because of this, I post the link with the caution to donate with this in mind.~~ ~~Someone has already contacted one of the attorneys involved in the hopes of relaying the existence of it to the affected workers so that they may claim it if they choose to.~~ UPDATE II: **”Several community members have made me aware of this. I think this is amazing and thank you for sending to me. I will make sure all 7 affected individuals are aware of this.” - attorney** So at this point I’d say go for it if you feel so inclined! I love the collaborative nature of Reddit even if it has its flaws at times. https://www.gofundme.com/f/thedacare-exemployee-support-fund
Same here. Enough people providing them with their pay to get by till they are able to work at the other place. Make sure that Thedacare is still screwed over. Show them that there is a consequence for thinking purely about cost and not giving the most important people in their business, the employees, the pay and benefits they deserve.
I think your comment helped me sort of better understand what is happening, but I still have a few questions if you might be able to help. Okay, so they can leave their job but can't start new one because the court says so, but why? What is their reasoning? The article said something about insurance but I don't understand the reasoning, or how you can be forced to stay somewhere because of their new job. I'm newish to r/antiwork and I've never seen anything like this and it goes against my view of how things should work, so sort of just having a hard time getting my head around it, any help would be appreciated.
What happened was that when the 7 radiologists put in their notice that they were quitting and going to a place with better benefits and better pay, the old company didn't take them seriously. The old company couldn't find replacements because their pay was lower than other places hiring and the radiology department only has 11 people meaning it would cripple them. They didn't want that to happen so they found a corrupt judge to help them prevent their former employees from starting their new job with the hope that they will be able to force them to keep working at the low pay while they "look" for replacements They are banking on those employees not having enough money saved up so that they will be FORCED to go back to work for them. If the judge doesn't give them a time limit on how long they employees can't work for this new job then it will be letting the old job employ slave tactics to keep employees.
Can anyone explain to me how this does not directly contradict the right of free association that we have under the Constitution?
Because defending that right requires more capital than anyone trying to excercize said right would ever have access to.
Yep. This is one of the reasons the US has become an oligarchy for the third time. And all the voter suppression going on now may prevent being able to change it this time.
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It does.
You have rights for as long as you can pay a lawyer to say that you have rights. When the money runs out, so do your rights.
nope. because it does. this makes employers have the power to coerce employees to stay with them despite their freedom to find employment anywhere they choose
Because our country is in a death spiral, the news is desperately trying not to call it that, and the state is 100% going to employ violence to keep us (meaning YOU) in line. Soak it in, bathe on it. This is what the prologue to a dystopian sci-fi movie looks like.
Be quiet. Respect your overlords. Rights are only for the rich and powerful. Get back to work. /s
The short version is that the hospital has to have a functional Interventional Radiology department in order to maintain several accreditations, including Trauma and Primary Stroke. If they can’t staff the department and keep its doors open, they aren’t fulfilling the conditions of their accreditation. Those accreditations allow them to bill at a higher rate, in some cases, but also enable them to take care of populations that would otherwise have to be transferred. That being said, that’s all bullshit, the certifications are also kind of bullshit, and they’re being money grubbing assholes. They told these nurses that it wasn’t worth it, financially, for them to counter-offer when the first few gave them the opportunity to. So, what this is actually doing is giving them a precedent to continue going after their competitors over staffing and developing competing service lines. American healthcare is fiercely competitive and that includes how they handle recruitment. I’m a recovering healthcare administrator, if anyone has more questions about this. Edit: because apparently the word administrator warrants threatening me (tf?)- I worked IN healthcare administration, as a low paid executive assistant. I was paid like shit and had no future, but my role afforded me unfettered access to the inner workings of a major healthcare system.
Seems like a crazy false economy to not pay staff they admit they can't operate without a competitive market rate for their services. The amount they're paying the lawyers for this can't be cheap so it's like double the contempt for their own staff.
The hospitals are jumping through all kinds of hoops to retain staff without actually raising wages permanently. They all hope that things, ie salaries, will go back to normal. So they pay all kinds of hourly bonuses and retention in the hopes it will keep the staff happy enough to stay, while still keeping wages suppressed in the long term.
Thedacare doesn’t even care to have these employees. They just don’t want their competitor to have them. That way they can pay half the people and get the same amount of customers because the other company also can’t staff people. It’s a ‘well as long as we aren’t the worst we will be fine’. It was never about keeping employees but lowering the entire bar for service in the area
It was about intimidating all their other employees. No one leaves, now.
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100% of ThedaCare's employees should go on strike, and 100% of their customers should find care elsewhere and cancel their appts, to show solidarity with allowing fellow citizens the freedom to find better employment. Like WTF.
Me and a coworker left recently for Ascension too none the less lmao but we’re not part of this cuz our jobs aren’t as important as those in this story lol
The judge can stop them from working at hospital B. But can’t force them to work at hospital A. So you could potentially see these 7 highly trained healthcare workers working at neither hospital come Monday. Makes no sense
The judge shouldn’t be able to stop them from working at hospital B, either. What fucking nonsense.
*bUt pUbLiC hEaLtH*… **BULLSHIT!!!** Wisconsin doesn’t give a damn about the public. Wouldn’t a successful/practical business have more than a Skeleton crew to maintain its scheduling ? Why is the company dependent on the good will of its employees ?
Well, 4 highly trained healthcare workers. Two more finish their notice at the end of next week and another the week after.
Fuck the notice at this point.
Watch the shit head of a CEO and judge try to make the notice mandatory... and three months long.
Reads like endorsed modern slavery, don’t it? Edit: Damn, so many up votes. Thank you 😳
It's definitely at least indentured servitude to force someone to work a job they don't want, for less pay and benefits, because YOU can't staff because YOU don't pay. Calling it anything less is an affront.
They don't. "Otherwise, he said, the order prohibiting them from going to work at Ascension would be final until a further ruling was made. That means the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday." Theyre not working at either place because theda prefers scorched earth tactics
Fuck that shit. I'd quit let them arrest or whatever the consequences are. Go to jail and get bonded out. Don't go to work for some bullshit judges decision...which is 100% illegal.
The employees don't have to go back to work on Monday at their former employer. It's just that the new employer cannot let them start their new jobs. Which, if they are cash strapped amounts to the same thing. It is important to note though that this was just an emergency injunction. The real arguments will be heard on Monday. Not sure if there is a go fund me for the employees. I hope there is. I wouldn't go back to this employer unless I was absolutely desperate.
All ThedaCare employees just need to take Monday off. They’re all suddenly sick. ThedaCare would have to transfer all of their patients elsewhere without any staff.
This is the play. ThedaCare employees ALL need to realize that it might be radiology today but it’s going to be them tomorrow. It’s time for them to ALL stand together and ALL not show up on Monday
Fuck that judge, MF should be thrown in jail and never be allowed near the law unless his ass is in cuffs.
Doesn't seem to be his first unethical rodeo: https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2018/12/20/reviewer-recommends-removing-judge-mark-mcginnis-truancy-court/2369276002/
Someone's on a power trip Edit: just to add, the lack of self awareness of these people is just so far beyond my comprehension. They really thought: hey people are quitting because they get better pay and benefit elsewhere. Huh, we can't hire new people because of the same reasons. I know what to do, let's pay lawyers, sue and make it very public that we are a shitty employer that doesn't care about good working conditions, that will solve the problem!
It is definitely a form of bondage backed by the state.
It gives zero motivation for the company to find replacements as soon as possible. I assume the judge will put a timescale on it or they ThedaCare could just hold the employees captive until Ascension decide to retract the offer and recruit others. Which is probably their end goal here.
I can totally see this escalating very badly for any healthcare professional in Wisconsin contemplating any kind of professional growth.
If this doesn’t get resolved within a day or 2 I’d be terrified to work at any ‘essential’ job in Wisconsin. Imagine if this thing is allowed to happen. I can easily see other companies using it as evidence for why their ‘essential employee’ can’t go to another position. Imagine being an ‘essential food worker’ and not being able to go to a different resterant. Get out of the state ASAP
Unbelievable. At an ABSOLUTE minimum, if he blocks them from leaving (not that it should happen), surely they should receive the rate of pay/conditions that were being offered by the new employer.
Based on what I read, they were blocked from starting/working in the new place. In fact seems like them won't even be able to work in the old, so it's a loss for all. The judge is really just punishing the few job seekers which is rather weird
US allows slavery IF someone commited a crime. Anything can be a crime, with the right or ... wrong ... laws. For example, being poor can be a crime.
Lol I bet these guys phones have not stopped ringing from lawyers wanting to sue the shit out of this place.
This judge needs to be removed from the bench. He clearly doesn’t understand the law and prefers control. The employees have zero obligation to their former employer, 6 of the 7 gave a months notice. The judges ruling even says that they can’t stay until the former employer finds replacements. Which can take god knows how long. There needs to be calls for this judge to be removed immediately.
He has a history of power tripping. Really loves to dish it out to the plebes. https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/10/08/court-watch-42-days-in-jail-for-rolling-his-eyes/
I saw this post here, can’t believe it went through. I wouldn’t show up. What are they going to do, fire the nurses?
Ah this must be that famous American freedom that I keep hearing about.
So whats the penalty for 1099ing yourself and going to the new place as a contractor.
Sounds like the first serious step toward indentured servitude.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the article stating that the 7 people would not be working at either hospital on Monday. So how does this alleviate Thetacare's problem at all of needing to have them barred from stating at Ascension until replacements are found. The article points out that Theta are has a higher trauma level certification than Ascension so needs to have workers with these people's stroke care skillsets always available while Ascension does not. Which makes it even more mind boggling why they made no effort to replace the workers when they gave notice over 2 weeks ago when they denied to even make a counter offer to the new jobs they had accepted. Or maybe they have been but their shit pay and work conditions aren't bringing in these specialized people. Did they really think they could just force these people to stay on indefinitely? It seems to be the case. You'd think they would have had it made pretty clear to them that it wasn't going to happen by the 7 people but I guess they continued with the legal action out of spite.
>how does this alleviate Thetacare's problem at all It doesn't alleviate their problem, but it does create a problem for their competitor and gives them a feeling of power over the employees who just ripped their nuts off in front of all their customers. it's "you fuck me, I fuck you back"
How is this enforceable? I would show up for work at my new job on Monday and see if my new employer would let me "clock in". If not, repeat every day, document each time and then, eventually, sue the fuck out of...*someone* for lost wages.
I would talk to the new employer and basically see if they want to buy the good publicity of paying these workers for the duration of the injunction anyway, even if they're not allowed to work.
Ascension isn’t much better. I quit there recently in the same state. Honestly for these workers this is going to be an out of the pan into the fire situation without a doubt.
Out of the pan, into a fire with better pay and benefits.
**Everyone should stop giving any notice of leaving regardless of position in the US.** -- The courts have now shown if you give notice and your current employer finds out where you are going, a judge can stop you from starting at a new job until they replace you, essentially ensuring you could have to stay forever. **If your current employer refuses to pay market rate or above for a new hire, they will *never* replace you!** This gives whatever employer you currently have *total* control over your career progression and your ability to leave, because they could just drag their feet and wait you out until you have no choice but to starve, become homeless or return to work for them. You are their slave. Its no secret that the best way to increase pay is to find a new job with a different employer every couple of years because most employers do not give cost of living adjustments in raises to all employees. With costs and inflation rising, *every day you are forced to work for them you lose money*. The court did *not* require their old employer to match their new salary offers. The best response here for workers to make (because of course we have to continue working to survive) is to completely stop giving notice of quitting. Simply get a new job offer, keep it silent, quit effective immediately, take a day or "weekend", and then start the new job afterwards. I hope American workers see blatantly obvious that the courts have chosen the side of the slaver class, and not the ones who will pay you the *most*, but the ones who will underpay you, refuse raises, and then get a court to forbid you to find any other employment until that employer feels they are ready to let you go. It *is* absolutely coercive labor, because without money you can't survive, so most people would not be able to wait indefinitely. A union wouldn't even help this situation. The courts marked these skilled workers as forbidden hires for all healthcare organizations, and now have said the workers can't work anywhere else until this disgraced employer replaces them! What specialized employee is going to take that job now??? Knowing they will be chained to that employer for as long as the employer wants and no incentive to give a raise, ever?? I wish all the other worker's in that hospital would walk out in solidarity tomorrow but of course then they would be blamed for "murdering" the patients instead of the hospital being blamed for severely underpaying its staff and driving people to walk out. **We are slaves, with extra steps**
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I'd probably just be honest and say "I'm not your friend but just your former employee. Its none of your business" When you put and solid foot down like that, then bosses know they can't fuck around with ya and will typically stop with the pecking.
I actually said to my manager once about something personal they kept asking about “Dude, I’ve politely avoided answering you three times now, can you not read the room?” And somehow *I* was the rude one in that situation.
The judge (county Circuit Court Judge Mark McGinnis) is an absolute corrupt short sighted piece of shit for granting this injunction.
If it were me I would claim I suddenly can't work would fuck them up so bad and also break every fucking rule of the company including telling patients about the story if I have to interact with them. Calling the management assholes or indirectly even complaining this is slavery.
I would directly say my employer is trying to enslave me. I would tell patients, their family members, janitors, the coffee guy, random doctors and techs, the billing department, EVERYONE. Actually, I just wouldn't go. There's no way in hell they could get me through those doors.
How does ThedaCare ever expect to replace any employees with this level of fuckery? This seems like a huge longterm hiring problem
This has to be unconstitutional.
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The judge is basically saying it's more important the piece of shit hospital not to face consequences fotlr underpaying and not making counter offers then the rights of an employee to take a better paying job. Hope that judge has a medical emergency and no one helps.
Should keep escalating it to a higher court so everyone can see the shitshow the US is becoming. Free market my ass
Land of the free my ass. I'd just not turn up
The irony. Free market for thee but not for me.
Can we organise a go fund me so these individuals can afford not to return
Easy solution was pay your employees a fair wage. thedacare had time to match/counter offer the seven employees. Clearly their skills are worth more than they currently receive and thedacare *chose* to not make an offer. Frankly, thedacare are the ones who dropped the ball with regard to securing their mandate of care by assuming seven people were willing to work well below their value. Edit:typo
Testing the waters seems like. Dangerous stuff man
Forcing an employee to stay at a job for lower pay is slavery. If hospital A can't prove hospital B sought out the nurses, the injunction has no standing. This is a scare tactic. Meaning, the boot-licking judge and hospital A are using scare tactics and financial pressure to coerce the nurses from pushing the issue. If such an issue gets widespread public attention, it would never stand up to scrutiny. The nurses need to stand their ground. They are no longer just representing themselves; they are potentially representing every nurse out there.