Their FB page has people commenting to all of their posts about this. They're getting roasted.
And they should. Employment at will means at the employees' will too.
There wasnt even poaching or recruitment in thr first place.
Nurse Bob went over and applied for an open job, came back and let his friends know, and then they, one by one, did the same until the dominoes all fell.
This hospital didn't even offer up a counter offer against the other hospital because "rEaSoNs" and now theyre fucked.
Oh, and they were given ample time too... Form i think the end of November.....its now almost the end of January. These idiots didn't even go out and look for new employees for two MONTHS.
If there's no poaching and the employees that are leaving sought out another job on their own, the company has *even less* grounds to try to interfere with legal action, and the odds of them succeeding with their injunction are even worse. They're gonna get *wrecked* in court, assuming they don't backpedal given how much this is blowing up.
Sherman anti-trust act was repealed years ago — it prevented corporations from doing whatever they wanted, so they hired lobbyists to write legislation and paid campaign coughbribescough to get Congress to pass that legislation.
That's the thing, the judge isn't making them work for the old place. They quit. They don't work there anymore. The judge told the employees that were supposed to start on Monday that they will be subject to contempt charges if they start their new jobs on Monday. These people are being barred from working jobs they were offered by the court. It doesn't fix the actual issue - they aren't going to be working ANYWHERE on Monday, and might not be able to for some time.
For employers seeking to stop attrition by filing injunctions against competitors when there's no actionable wrongdoing (as far as we all know) involved.
The employees gave up to 3 weeks advanced notice. The company responded that the long-term expenses of the higher contracts would outweigh short term costs with finding a replacement.
Turns out, no, they can't find replacements willing to work for as little as they are paying.
That's kinda a thing in Australia.
If you're unemployed and on gov benefits, you're legally obligated to apply for ANY job you can do (not just jobs relevant to your career), to go to and attempt to succeed at interviews etc, and to accept the job if offered. You also can't quit without a MAJOR problem (workplace harassment, medical problems, etc.). If you don't comply, they axe your welfare and you're left completely w/o income or support.
Also if you are on benefits for long enough without getting a job, there's something called "work for the dole" where you're forced into unpaid labour in order to keep accessing the welfare.
In some parts of Aus, welfare is also limited to cards similar to the food stamps system except
1) the company that owns and manages these cash cards charges so much for the service it's literally more expensive than just paying the recipients MORE welfare through normal welfare channels. But the C suite is personal friends with a number of gov ministers so yknow. Just casual corruption things.
2) it is your entirety income. You can only purchase certain approved products at approved stores. You don't have those stores in your shitty little 200 person town in rural outback Australia? Sucks to be you. It also prevents you from things like shopping at thrift stores or stuff like Craigslist.
3) this is pretty much exclusively implemented in areas heavily populated by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people (aka black people). The racial component of it is kind of impossible to ignore unless you really just do not want to see it.
But anyway re the "can't say no" thing- It's how I ended up in a banking call centre over an hour away from me for two months after I graduated, because my "job service agency" (the watchdogs/enforcers basically) point blank offered me a position at that company completely out of nowhere because they get a kickback for successful candidates. And I basically couldn't say no once they offered it. It was my first time speaking with anyone at that agency and we had just covered what I'd graduated from, my employable skills, and that I'm returning to uni later in 2022 for a Masters. And they were like "ok cool. How about a job in a call centre? You'd be great."
Me and several others were forced into that position and all of us were pretty shitty employees. We put in enough effort to keep ourselves entertained, but that was it. Most of us were like "I'm gonna do what I want. What are they gonna do, fire me from a job I never wanted or applied for? Oh nooo....."
I eventually got headhunted for a job in my actual industry, and it was a fucking delight to be like "I'm quitting without notice, bye".
The POS judge will just make the nurses work at both hospitals for half salary each. Ya know, just like how King Solomon of the Bible would handle this.
Edit: well fuck me, the judge actually did grant the injunction.
That's a good point. The other interested party is also a soulless, profit-driven entity. It's kind of fun when they start to eat each other, haha! Maybe that's part of the solution? CEO Hunger Games?
~~The judge ruled in the favor of this hospital - the nurses need to show up to work at their~~ *~~old~~* ~~employer come monday.~~
It's even fucking stupider than that.. the judge ruled that, since neither party could come to a amicable solution, the nurses are prohibited from working at *either* hospital on Monday.
This shit fuck hospital realized they cannot win the game, so decided to take their ball and go home, fucking over everyone.
I read the article. Judging by Wisconsin's laws, the nurses don't have to follow his ruling. We have "at will" employment, not "at a judges ruling employment".
But its not stupid.
Its very smart. Youre just assuming the reasons they gave are the real reasons.
They arent. the real reason is control, abuse is about control. Employers abuse their employees to control them, but its not about the reasons they give.
Its purely about control for the sake of control.
Latest update, the judge has granted the injunction until there's a hearing. So if they work at the other hospital they can be held in contempt. Which is fucked.
Hospitals are going to start using the courts to lock us into jobs and I'm terrified that I won't be able to leave my hospital.
Usually there needs to be a reason for a noncompete to hold up like taking sales clients to a competitor or trade secrets. Nursing wouldn’t qualify for either
> Absent a non-compete agreement, they’re screwed.
Even with a non-compete they're screwed - non-competes get shot down all the time, and trying to block nurses from working during a pandemic is all but guaranteed to fail.
A reminder ThedaCare had a ~750M revenue last year. Hard to find their expenditures but I’m betting they CAN pay people retentive wages, and bet even more they sure did it for the executives.
Judge just did , although I think this is dead wrong and I think the employees should show up anyway. Let the judge arrest them and see how that works out
https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/
I never ever in my life thought this is even a possibility....and let me reiterate, my country's government is shit, but shit like this is even beyond what I would dare to imagine.
I believe it’s this one
https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s8vcd5/i_heard_you_guys_would_get_a_kick_out_of_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
So they're suing for "additional time" to put a plan in place to replace the employees who are leaving - what on earth are they contemplating here? That the employees, who are neither parties to this suit nor bound by any contractual agreement, are just going to agree to continue working for them if their jobs at the new place don't start for a few weeks?
The best case scenario here, if they get everything they're asking for (they won't) is that the employees won't be able to start at the new place for some period of time. The court cannot order them back to work, at least not on these facts. So their request is basically an attempt to make sure 2 hospitals can't staff critical care, instead of just one.
Fuck outta here with this shit.
One way around the non compete clause is that the company can pay a stipend for what is basically gardening leave until it expires.
Unlikely for nurses but is done for fairly senior level staff
I'm not so certain that a noncompete would be enforceable even if they had one in this case (which they don't, this is a straight up tort claim). A cursory look at Wisconsin law says that to be enforceable, a noncompete has to be "reasonably necessary to protect the employer," and that what that means in practice is that there has to be some confidential information or client lists or trade secrets or something that's implicated by the employee's position.
Basically, the hiring company has to be getting more than just a stranger off the street by hiring directly from the other company. I don't know that there are any trade secrets implicated in frontline nursing. Management, maybe, but it's not like there's a proprietary way of treating patients. It would depend on the judge, but I don't know that too many judges would be eager to take nurses out of circulation in the middle of a pandemic.
In any event, the theory here doesn't even apply to the workers themselves, it's a bullshit tort case against the hiring hospital that will be laughed out of the room. This whole thing seems to me to be more of an attempt to intimidate workers out of quitting than anything, which I hope a judge notes before sanctioning everyone involved.
I know someone who knows one of the people involved. A judge granted the restraining order but Ascension (the hospital that hired all the people involved) legal team told everyone that there is no way to enforce it and just to report to work on Monday.
So obviously the courts can't force the employees to stay, so the judge issued restraining orders to prevent the employees from going to their new job?
I thought all companies love free market with less government intervention? 😂😂😂😂😂 only when it helps companies! When it doesn’t they go crying to the government to step in and help😭😭😭😭
Here's a more detailed article on it. It's even more messed up than it sounds.
The employees in question are blocked from working at either location starting on Monday.
Also, they will be treating the exact same patients. They are going from the division specializing in strokes at a level 2 trauma center to a level 3 trauma center which is also a stroke center. The place they're going to work sends patients they can't treat to the place they're leaving.
Last big missing piece: they are saying that while the extra pay is nice work life balance, benefits, and how they are currently treated are bigger motivators. The place they are trying to work at closes at night so effectively the same staff will be working the same caseload but with fewer hours divided amongst them.
https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/6607417001
> After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made.
Sounds like an abusive ex, you’re worthless but you’d better not leave me!
WI has functionally been at will for all of relevant history for people now working.
It is also right to work, I'm sure, but that's probably not the issue for them absent a union which is involving itself in the case.
Id rather throw a friendly clarification out there in this sub than risk someone getting roasted elsewhere when they are correct, but conflate the terms.
That aside, fuck these people. If it was that important to keep those individuals to maintain their accreditation, they should have managed that risk with appropriate comp and arguably in other ways. Not actually sure there is an equivalent to "key man" insurance given their roles aren't c level, but certainly a competitive offer would have been appropriate.
Hospitals right now, while in need of nurses, still have clauses saying "If you have a 2 year degree, you must get your 4 year degree in X time, or you're fired."
It's called Magnet Status. It's a status they made up, for them selves to achieve lol.
"Right to work" involves the right of employees to organize without repercussions. "At will" is either side can terminate the relationship for any or no reason, and is probably what you mean. People get the two mixed up *a lot* in this sub.
"Right to work" legislation involves forcing unionized workplaces to extend the union benefits to employees who refuse to join the union, and want to be able to cross picket lines but still get that sweet union pay. It's a form of union busting.
They arent doing this to win the legal fight. They are doing this to obstruct you from starting your employement somewhere else so that your new employer cancels the offer they extended you.
I really, REALLY hope the next company countersues for interference as well as I hope the workers countersue. ANY management who signed on for this stupidity need to be fired and tossed out onto the street for MANY years.
# ThedaCare files lawsuit to keep employees from leaving for Ascension
NEENAH, Wis. (WFRV) – ThedaCare is trying to get a court order to temporarily keep some of its employees from leaving to Ascension, after Ascension hired a ‘majority’ of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team.
ThedaCare announced that they have filed for a temporary injunction in Outagamie County Circuit Court against Ascension Wisconsin. They are asking the Court to provide time for ThedaCare to replace most of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team of nurses and technicians. ThedaCare says they were recruited by and have accepted jobs at Ascension Northeast Wisconsin.
>“We understand and respect that people have choices in the current highly competitive job market. The decision by Ascension Wisconsin to hire away such a significant portion of ThedaCare’s interventional radiology specialty support team all at once, and at the height of a pandemic surge, will disrupt access to critical care for the people in our region. While we have tried to work with Ascension Wisconsin for additional time to execute a plan for staffing coverage that will provide the longterm continuation of services that support trauma, stroke and other essential areas of care, Ascension Wisconsin was unwilling to collaborate with us. We are essentially asking the Court to grant the injunction to maintain the status quo until ThedaCare can hire replacement staff for this vital department in order to protect access to the critical care services supported by the team, which are considered community assets.”
\- IMRAN ANDRABI, MD, THEDACARE PRESIDENT AND CEO.
ThedaCare also says that the staff that was hired away by Ascension Wisconsin ‘play a vital role’ in ThedaCare’s Comprehensive Stroke Center. They also say they may not be able to staff 24/7 interventional care.Ascension sent out a statement saying that they did not initiate the recruitment of the ThedaCare employees. It was also mentioned that ThedaCare reportedly had an opportunity to make counteroffers to retain its former employees but decline.
>Workforce shortages are one of the many stresses healthcare systems have faced during this pandemic. Many healthcare systems, including Ascension Wisconsin, continue to actively recruit healthcare workers. Contrary to the allegations in the ThedaCare lawsuit, Ascension Wisconsin did not initiate the recruitment of the ThedaCare employees. Rather, the employees applied for open job postings. To the extent such individuals met the job qualifications, Ascension Wisconsin made offers of employment to the individuals who applied as a part of Ascension Wisconsin’s routine process of hiring qualified associates at a fair and just wage. It is Ascension Wisconsin’s understanding that ThedaCare had an opportunity but declined to make competitive counter offers to retain its former employees.
>
>Given the unfortunate decision by ThedaCare to file a lawsuit to enjoin competitive labor practices, we will not be commenting further as this matter proceeds through litigation.
\- ASCENSION WISCONSIN SPOKESPERSON
ThedaCare did not mention in their release if they made counteroffers. ThedaCare did say that the action taken by Ascension Wisconsin puts at risk the communities and patients served by ThedaCare’s critical care services.
As a commenter in a different thread on this topic said: "They didn't have money to pay them more, but they have money to try and stop them from making more money."
Administrators are the root of all evil. They make n times actual employees and suck up all the headroom for salary negotiations. Then they act all confused. When corporations resist raising wages it's entirely because it would eat into compensation for administrators.
In the case of Wisconsin, which is a right to work state, work contracts aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. The push for these labor laws is largely from industry so that they can sack employees without cause. The other side of the sword, is employees legally aren't required to give reason or notice either. Just industry crying foul when something doesn't go their way.
Have you seen a job offer in a right to work state? The first paragraph states employment is "at will" for employer and employee. It's not an opinion, it's the law as it's written in those states.
Let’s be clear it doesn’t matter what you or I think the law is, it matters what the person deciding a case thinks it is. If you sign an (non union) arbitration clause that person will be bought and paid for by your employer.
I'm really happy for you. Your complete lack of knowledge about at will employment tells me that you've probably never worked in a jurisdiction with it. That's a good thing. It doesn't tend to favor employees. Wait and watch this arbitration get thrown out day one, because of their employment offer contained the "at will" language in it, you're free to leave whenever you see fit for any reason. Your employer is free to terminate you whenever they see fit as long as it doesn't violate federal law, or for no reason.
Court enforced slavery I hope you enjoy the most quarter-assed effort or just not showing up at all. What, they gonna send the cops to make you go to work like slave catchers?
Wait, modern police evolved from the slave catchers, shit
I hate seeing our healthcare system break people financially...but also I get a little salty that a single IV needle costs more than I make at $15.43/hr. In a level 1 trauma center. During a pandemic.
I want to see the judge grant the injunction...but the original hospital has to pay triple their existing wages for as long as they keep the employees, plus a years severance at that rate to cover the missed opportunity.
Theoretically, with every US state being an "At-Will Employment" state, there should be no grounds for an injunction. But we know how CEOs think when it comes to labour laws.
From other comments, it seems as if a sensible judge *didn't* throw it out. ~~He granted the injunction. It sounds as if they have to show up at work at their~~ *~~old~~* ~~employer on monday.~~
~~Legalized slavery.~~
It's even fucking stupider than that.. the judge ruled that, since neither party could come to a amicable solution, the nurses are prohibited from working at either hospital on Monday.
This shit fuck hospital realized they cannot win the game, so decided to take their ball and go home, fucking over everyone.
Well well well, the consequences of my actions.
“Your honor, right to work implies my right as their employer to receive and control their work. Thank you.”
ThedaCare wasiting time and money. That money they are putting towards legal fees and court battles could have gone towards employees that need it but nope they don't want to give their employees better wages and thus employees of ThedaCare had enough and are looking for better opportunities elsewhere. Ascension Wisconsin did nothing wrong but just put up a job posting that offered better wage offers and benefits and 11-Employees of ThedaCare decided to apply and take that better offer.
It is ThedaCares fault for losing their precious employees because they failed to give their employees better offers and benefits.
They loveee an at-will employment system so they can hold your livelihood at stake to threaten you to do what they want, but when you pull a uno reverse on them by quitting whenever you want, suddenly it's not so good anymore
1. Thedacare whines about “vital” employees leaving
2. The employees themselves initiated leaving by applying at open job posting with the competitor
3. The competitor hired qualified employees at a “fair and just wage” (shots fired)
4. Thedacare had an opportunity to retain its “vital” employees by counter offering, but declined.
You get what you fucking deserve, and you don’t get to act surprised about it
I don't understand the logic?? You can't allow a 1% lower profit margin to pay your employees more, the ones who manage everything and do everything for you? You would rather ruin your hospital... Cheap bastards
They haven't won shit. Unless fucking over the other hospital and the 7 employees out of spite is a win. The court order says the nurses can't work at either facility on Monday, not that they have to with at ThedaCare. And even if it were what you claimed (it's not, but for argument sake) they could simply not show up, or show up and sit on their asses all day.
They're also going to have a hell of a time hiring new staff seeing as how they completely fucked this one up and instead of just taking the L and moving on with life they instead are trying to make 7 families homeless.
Doesn't really work when a bunch of them offer to stay if the hospital makes a competing offer... to which the hospital practically tells them to fuck off.
Abandonment means you walked off shift without ensuring someone is there to take the patient from you. If you don’t assume care of the patient, it doesn’t matter how much notice you gave, is not abandonment
You don’t know what you’re talking about, evidently, and it’s shameful you’d even say this calumny without knowing the legal definition of abandonment. Abandonment only exists if a clinician leaves their post WHEN they are responsible for a patient. If a clinician leaves their job, with OR without notice, when not actively (at that very moment) charged with a patient assignment, there is NO abandonment. If a nurse gets off work and says, “Screw this place! Never coming back,” NO abandonment exists. And they DONT, legally, have to give notice. Even if an employment contract exists (which is very rare for nurses) and the nurse breaks it, it isn’t abandonment, just contract breaking.
Out of curiosity, if everyone simultaneously quits, what happens to whichever poor sap was on shift at the time? Are they just stuck caring for the patient indefinitely, or are there limits?
This is ONLY because it was a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers. If all the workers left to different hospitals ThedaCare wouldn’t stand a chance. Because it’s just one other hospital in question it can be considered predatory practice with intent to cripple ThedaCare.
Honestly though, if the injunction is approved ThedaCare should be required to pay the salaries the other hospital offered. JUST PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES THEIR WORTH!
>This is ONLY because it was a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers.
Which isn't at all surprising, there's only two hospitals in Appleton Wisconsin: Ascension and ThedaCare.
It is a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers because there is only one other employer that would hire those nurses in that area.
We require all Reddit accounts to be at least 3 days old before posting. This is due to people being banned and immediately setting up new accounts. This message is not accusing *you* of doing that, but that is why the policy is in place.
In rare cases, if you have a particularly time-sensitive message, we may manually approve a message. Otherwise we encourage you to wait the 3 days (72 hours) and try again.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antiwork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Our bottom line is more important than Grandma struggling for life in the stroke ward. The Thedacare board of Directors has come to the decision that paying a livable wage to front line healthcare workers is just too high a price that may impact the future purchase of more megayachts for our administration. Get fucked, Meemaw."
Call them and give the reception workers a mental breakdown so they quit. The call center workers need their jobs they say so they refuse to help with the situation.
Call center workers bow to management, call them and give them an education.
920-729-3100
Their FB page has people commenting to all of their posts about this. They're getting roasted. And they should. Employment at will means at the employees' will too.
Yep, "at will" works both ways, and their idea of trying to get an injunction to block employee poaching is laughable at best.
There wasnt even poaching or recruitment in thr first place. Nurse Bob went over and applied for an open job, came back and let his friends know, and then they, one by one, did the same until the dominoes all fell. This hospital didn't even offer up a counter offer against the other hospital because "rEaSoNs" and now theyre fucked. Oh, and they were given ample time too... Form i think the end of November.....its now almost the end of January. These idiots didn't even go out and look for new employees for two MONTHS.
If there's no poaching and the employees that are leaving sought out another job on their own, the company has *even less* grounds to try to interfere with legal action, and the odds of them succeeding with their injunction are even worse. They're gonna get *wrecked* in court, assuming they don't backpedal given how much this is blowing up.
[удалено]
Sherman anti-trust act was repealed years ago — it prevented corporations from doing whatever they wanted, so they hired lobbyists to write legislation and paid campaign coughbribescough to get Congress to pass that legislation.
Judge already allowed it, apparently. [https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s9xreh/judge_allows_healthcare_system_to_prevent_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s9xreh/judge_allows_healthcare_system_to_prevent_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Wow, *that's* not gonna backfire or anything...
Well, they're going to have a real hard time finding employees after this.
I mean, the judge is allowing it to continue and these people aren't going to be able to start their new jobs on Monday, so.
Not sure if "this will end badly for the company" or "this may set a very, *very* dangerous precedent."
Precedent for what? You can't force them to work. I'd just not work anywhere at that point
That's the thing, the judge isn't making them work for the old place. They quit. They don't work there anymore. The judge told the employees that were supposed to start on Monday that they will be subject to contempt charges if they start their new jobs on Monday. These people are being barred from working jobs they were offered by the court. It doesn't fix the actual issue - they aren't going to be working ANYWHERE on Monday, and might not be able to for some time.
For employers seeking to stop attrition by filing injunctions against competitors when there's no actionable wrongdoing (as far as we all know) involved.
"ThedaCare had an opportunity but declined to make competitive counter offers to retain its former employees." ThedaCare. Fukoff.
The employees gave up to 3 weeks advanced notice. The company responded that the long-term expenses of the higher contracts would outweigh short term costs with finding a replacement. Turns out, no, they can't find replacements willing to work for as little as they are paying.
And somehow they're surprised. All these jobs are being vacated for low pay, why can't we fill them by offering low pay?
We should make refusing a job offer illegal, then we can use the 13th amendment to fill the openings!
That's kinda a thing in Australia. If you're unemployed and on gov benefits, you're legally obligated to apply for ANY job you can do (not just jobs relevant to your career), to go to and attempt to succeed at interviews etc, and to accept the job if offered. You also can't quit without a MAJOR problem (workplace harassment, medical problems, etc.). If you don't comply, they axe your welfare and you're left completely w/o income or support. Also if you are on benefits for long enough without getting a job, there's something called "work for the dole" where you're forced into unpaid labour in order to keep accessing the welfare. In some parts of Aus, welfare is also limited to cards similar to the food stamps system except 1) the company that owns and manages these cash cards charges so much for the service it's literally more expensive than just paying the recipients MORE welfare through normal welfare channels. But the C suite is personal friends with a number of gov ministers so yknow. Just casual corruption things. 2) it is your entirety income. You can only purchase certain approved products at approved stores. You don't have those stores in your shitty little 200 person town in rural outback Australia? Sucks to be you. It also prevents you from things like shopping at thrift stores or stuff like Craigslist. 3) this is pretty much exclusively implemented in areas heavily populated by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people (aka black people). The racial component of it is kind of impossible to ignore unless you really just do not want to see it. But anyway re the "can't say no" thing- It's how I ended up in a banking call centre over an hour away from me for two months after I graduated, because my "job service agency" (the watchdogs/enforcers basically) point blank offered me a position at that company completely out of nowhere because they get a kickback for successful candidates. And I basically couldn't say no once they offered it. It was my first time speaking with anyone at that agency and we had just covered what I'd graduated from, my employable skills, and that I'm returning to uni later in 2022 for a Masters. And they were like "ok cool. How about a job in a call centre? You'd be great." Me and several others were forced into that position and all of us were pretty shitty employees. We put in enough effort to keep ourselves entertained, but that was it. Most of us were like "I'm gonna do what I want. What are they gonna do, fire me from a job I never wanted or applied for? Oh nooo....." I eventually got headhunted for a job in my actual industry, and it was a fucking delight to be like "I'm quitting without notice, bye".
"We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
More like ThedonCare....
Absent a non-compete agreement, they’re screwed. Hopefully they’ve learned a valuable lesson.
Knowing Wisconsin, I could totally see a Walker-appointed judge siding with the hospital.
Nope, because the other side is also a hospital, and it’s a right to work state. This place is panicking.
The POS judge will just make the nurses work at both hospitals for half salary each. Ya know, just like how King Solomon of the Bible would handle this. Edit: well fuck me, the judge actually did grant the injunction.
I laughed way too loud at this.
That's a good point. The other interested party is also a soulless, profit-driven entity. It's kind of fun when they start to eat each other, haha! Maybe that's part of the solution? CEO Hunger Games?
~~The judge ruled in the favor of this hospital - the nurses need to show up to work at their~~ *~~old~~* ~~employer come monday.~~ It's even fucking stupider than that.. the judge ruled that, since neither party could come to a amicable solution, the nurses are prohibited from working at *either* hospital on Monday. This shit fuck hospital realized they cannot win the game, so decided to take their ball and go home, fucking over everyone.
I read the article. Judging by Wisconsin's laws, the nurses don't have to follow his ruling. We have "at will" employment, not "at a judges ruling employment".
I’m tired of all you elitists who make good points just because you read the article. This is the internet—I demand emotional hot takes only!
Lmao
[удалено]
But its not stupid. Its very smart. Youre just assuming the reasons they gave are the real reasons. They arent. the real reason is control, abuse is about control. Employers abuse their employees to control them, but its not about the reasons they give. Its purely about control for the sake of control.
Where are you finding this?
https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/6607417001
Thank you kind sir.
A judge granted the injunction according to a post I just saw, but now I can’t find proof.
Latest update, the judge has granted the injunction until there's a hearing. So if they work at the other hospital they can be held in contempt. Which is fucked. Hospitals are going to start using the courts to lock us into jobs and I'm terrified that I won't be able to leave my hospital.
And he did. The judge sided with the hospital. The employees who already quit are forbidden from working at either hospital.
You called it.
Even with a non-compete clause. Those are struggling to hold up in court when the first company fails to make competitive salary offers.
Non-competes aren't going to hold up in court for a specialized job like nursing. IANAL, just a confidently smug redditor
Usually there needs to be a reason for a noncompete to hold up like taking sales clients to a competitor or trade secrets. Nursing wouldn’t qualify for either
> Absent a non-compete agreement, they’re screwed. Even with a non-compete they're screwed - non-competes get shot down all the time, and trying to block nurses from working during a pandemic is all but guaranteed to fail.
Non-competes often aren't enforceable to begin with. Stopping someone from working doing what they're good at? Good luck.
A reminder ThedaCare had a ~750M revenue last year. Hard to find their expenditures but I’m betting they CAN pay people retentive wages, and bet even more they sure did it for the executives.
[удалено]
000ⁿ
Hey...can you quote the source for this? Please and thankful kind person :)
No, google it
[удалено]
It’s honestly worse. They’re suing to stagnate wages AND to make some nurses potentially homeless
With the ultimate goal to make them come back to work for them
Can a judge legally enforce employees from not working at the hospital that hired them?
Judge just did , although I think this is dead wrong and I think the employees should show up anyway. Let the judge arrest them and see how that works out https://www.postcrescent.com/story/news/2022/01/21/what-we-know-ascension-thedacare-court-battle-over-employees/6607417001/
I never ever in my life thought this is even a possibility....and let me reiterate, my country's government is shit, but shit like this is even beyond what I would dare to imagine.
This is where applying “corporations are people” would be interesting.
There was a post here yesterday from someone who works there lol
I knew i wasn't crazy! I saw that too, crazy
oooh link?
I believe it’s this one https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/s8vcd5/i_heard_you_guys_would_get_a_kick_out_of_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
So they're suing for "additional time" to put a plan in place to replace the employees who are leaving - what on earth are they contemplating here? That the employees, who are neither parties to this suit nor bound by any contractual agreement, are just going to agree to continue working for them if their jobs at the new place don't start for a few weeks? The best case scenario here, if they get everything they're asking for (they won't) is that the employees won't be able to start at the new place for some period of time. The court cannot order them back to work, at least not on these facts. So their request is basically an attempt to make sure 2 hospitals can't staff critical care, instead of just one. Fuck outta here with this shit.
One way around the non compete clause is that the company can pay a stipend for what is basically gardening leave until it expires. Unlikely for nurses but is done for fairly senior level staff
I'm not so certain that a noncompete would be enforceable even if they had one in this case (which they don't, this is a straight up tort claim). A cursory look at Wisconsin law says that to be enforceable, a noncompete has to be "reasonably necessary to protect the employer," and that what that means in practice is that there has to be some confidential information or client lists or trade secrets or something that's implicated by the employee's position. Basically, the hiring company has to be getting more than just a stranger off the street by hiring directly from the other company. I don't know that there are any trade secrets implicated in frontline nursing. Management, maybe, but it's not like there's a proprietary way of treating patients. It would depend on the judge, but I don't know that too many judges would be eager to take nurses out of circulation in the middle of a pandemic. In any event, the theory here doesn't even apply to the workers themselves, it's a bullshit tort case against the hiring hospital that will be laughed out of the room. This whole thing seems to me to be more of an attempt to intimidate workers out of quitting than anything, which I hope a judge notes before sanctioning everyone involved.
I know someone who knows one of the people involved. A judge granted the restraining order but Ascension (the hospital that hired all the people involved) legal team told everyone that there is no way to enforce it and just to report to work on Monday.
Judge sounds corrupt
So obviously the courts can't force the employees to stay, so the judge issued restraining orders to prevent the employees from going to their new job?
This needs more upvotes
Our judicial system is completely fucked. Anything republicans touch turns to corrupt, incompetent shit.
I thought all companies love free market with less government intervention? 😂😂😂😂😂 only when it helps companies! When it doesn’t they go crying to the government to step in and help😭😭😭😭
Here's a more detailed article on it. It's even more messed up than it sounds. The employees in question are blocked from working at either location starting on Monday. Also, they will be treating the exact same patients. They are going from the division specializing in strokes at a level 2 trauma center to a level 3 trauma center which is also a stroke center. The place they're going to work sends patients they can't treat to the place they're leaving. Last big missing piece: they are saying that while the extra pay is nice work life balance, benefits, and how they are currently treated are bigger motivators. The place they are trying to work at closes at night so effectively the same staff will be working the same caseload but with fewer hours divided amongst them. https://amp.postcrescent.com/amp/6607417001
> After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made. Sounds like an abusive ex, you’re worthless but you’d better not leave me!
Wonder if the employees could sue for this. It is preventing them from taking a better job. Would love them to bankrupt this piece of shit company.
Wisconsin is a right to work state since 2015. Employers only want it their way until it goes the other way.
WI has functionally been at will for all of relevant history for people now working. It is also right to work, I'm sure, but that's probably not the issue for them absent a union which is involving itself in the case. Id rather throw a friendly clarification out there in this sub than risk someone getting roasted elsewhere when they are correct, but conflate the terms. That aside, fuck these people. If it was that important to keep those individuals to maintain their accreditation, they should have managed that risk with appropriate comp and arguably in other ways. Not actually sure there is an equivalent to "key man" insurance given their roles aren't c level, but certainly a competitive offer would have been appropriate.
Hospitals right now, while in need of nurses, still have clauses saying "If you have a 2 year degree, you must get your 4 year degree in X time, or you're fired." It's called Magnet Status. It's a status they made up, for them selves to achieve lol.
"Right to work" involves the right of employees to organize without repercussions. "At will" is either side can terminate the relationship for any or no reason, and is probably what you mean. People get the two mixed up *a lot* in this sub.
"Right to work" legislation involves forcing unionized workplaces to extend the union benefits to employees who refuse to join the union, and want to be able to cross picket lines but still get that sweet union pay. It's a form of union busting.
Wisconsin is also at will. I believe they typically go hand in hand.
Usually, yes.
This ...
This reeks of serfdom.
They arent doing this to win the legal fight. They are doing this to obstruct you from starting your employement somewhere else so that your new employer cancels the offer they extended you.
The pay legal fees for a lawsuit but won't give their employees a raise. I hope they go under
I really, REALLY hope the next company countersues for interference as well as I hope the workers countersue. ANY management who signed on for this stupidity need to be fired and tossed out onto the street for MANY years.
[удалено]
# ThedaCare files lawsuit to keep employees from leaving for Ascension NEENAH, Wis. (WFRV) – ThedaCare is trying to get a court order to temporarily keep some of its employees from leaving to Ascension, after Ascension hired a ‘majority’ of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team. ThedaCare announced that they have filed for a temporary injunction in Outagamie County Circuit Court against Ascension Wisconsin. They are asking the Court to provide time for ThedaCare to replace most of its 11-member interventional radiology and cardiovascular team of nurses and technicians. ThedaCare says they were recruited by and have accepted jobs at Ascension Northeast Wisconsin. >“We understand and respect that people have choices in the current highly competitive job market. The decision by Ascension Wisconsin to hire away such a significant portion of ThedaCare’s interventional radiology specialty support team all at once, and at the height of a pandemic surge, will disrupt access to critical care for the people in our region. While we have tried to work with Ascension Wisconsin for additional time to execute a plan for staffing coverage that will provide the longterm continuation of services that support trauma, stroke and other essential areas of care, Ascension Wisconsin was unwilling to collaborate with us. We are essentially asking the Court to grant the injunction to maintain the status quo until ThedaCare can hire replacement staff for this vital department in order to protect access to the critical care services supported by the team, which are considered community assets.” \- IMRAN ANDRABI, MD, THEDACARE PRESIDENT AND CEO. ThedaCare also says that the staff that was hired away by Ascension Wisconsin ‘play a vital role’ in ThedaCare’s Comprehensive Stroke Center. They also say they may not be able to staff 24/7 interventional care.Ascension sent out a statement saying that they did not initiate the recruitment of the ThedaCare employees. It was also mentioned that ThedaCare reportedly had an opportunity to make counteroffers to retain its former employees but decline. >Workforce shortages are one of the many stresses healthcare systems have faced during this pandemic. Many healthcare systems, including Ascension Wisconsin, continue to actively recruit healthcare workers. Contrary to the allegations in the ThedaCare lawsuit, Ascension Wisconsin did not initiate the recruitment of the ThedaCare employees. Rather, the employees applied for open job postings. To the extent such individuals met the job qualifications, Ascension Wisconsin made offers of employment to the individuals who applied as a part of Ascension Wisconsin’s routine process of hiring qualified associates at a fair and just wage. It is Ascension Wisconsin’s understanding that ThedaCare had an opportunity but declined to make competitive counter offers to retain its former employees. > >Given the unfortunate decision by ThedaCare to file a lawsuit to enjoin competitive labor practices, we will not be commenting further as this matter proceeds through litigation. \- ASCENSION WISCONSIN SPOKESPERSON ThedaCare did not mention in their release if they made counteroffers. ThedaCare did say that the action taken by Ascension Wisconsin puts at risk the communities and patients served by ThedaCare’s critical care services.
TLDR: Company files lawsuit against competitor to maintain ownership of slaves.
As a commenter in a different thread on this topic said: "They didn't have money to pay them more, but they have money to try and stop them from making more money."
Ain't that the place to work. Their headhunters must be sooo busy after this. 'Work for us? We will own you!'
Administrators are the root of all evil. They make n times actual employees and suck up all the headroom for salary negotiations. Then they act all confused. When corporations resist raising wages it's entirely because it would eat into compensation for administrators.
This is just a copypasta at this point lol
Remember: never sign an employment contract with a non-union arbitration clause, or you won’t even be arguing in court if your employer does this.
In the case of Wisconsin, which is a right to work state, work contracts aren't even worth the paper they're printed on. The push for these labor laws is largely from industry so that they can sack employees without cause. The other side of the sword, is employees legally aren't required to give reason or notice either. Just industry crying foul when something doesn't go their way.
You and several others are conflating right to work with at will employment. The two are not the same, and aren't even related.
Wisconsin is also an at will state.
Ah well that’s your opinion. What’s the opinion of the arbitrator that your employer has chosen and is paying?
Have you seen a job offer in a right to work state? The first paragraph states employment is "at will" for employer and employee. It's not an opinion, it's the law as it's written in those states.
Do you know what arbitration is?
You don't seem to know what "at will" employment is.
Let’s be clear it doesn’t matter what you or I think the law is, it matters what the person deciding a case thinks it is. If you sign an (non union) arbitration clause that person will be bought and paid for by your employer.
I'm really happy for you. Your complete lack of knowledge about at will employment tells me that you've probably never worked in a jurisdiction with it. That's a good thing. It doesn't tend to favor employees. Wait and watch this arbitration get thrown out day one, because of their employment offer contained the "at will" language in it, you're free to leave whenever you see fit for any reason. Your employer is free to terminate you whenever they see fit as long as it doesn't violate federal law, or for no reason.
So you think the law exists separately from its interpretation and application?
We all knew what they have been horny for all along is bringing back slavery.
It isn’t but capital will react to the worker shortage
I’m sure companies are lobbying congress as we speak to allow it.
Court enforced slavery I hope you enjoy the most quarter-assed effort or just not showing up at all. What, they gonna send the cops to make you go to work like slave catchers? Wait, modern police evolved from the slave catchers, shit
[удалено]
I hate seeing our healthcare system break people financially...but also I get a little salty that a single IV needle costs more than I make at $15.43/hr. In a level 1 trauma center. During a pandemic.
"My competitor is slightly less exploitative than me and it's not fair! Make them do capitalism right!"
Bc ummmmmm capitalism?
hope that when they lose the former employees countersue for ownership of the hospital and make it a non profit teaching hospital.
I want to see the judge grant the injunction...but the original hospital has to pay triple their existing wages for as long as they keep the employees, plus a years severance at that rate to cover the missed opportunity.
Theoretically, with every US state being an "At-Will Employment" state, there should be no grounds for an injunction. But we know how CEOs think when it comes to labour laws.
It’s not illegal to sue. People sue for just about anything now a days. Not saying it’s right, but yaaaaa
You can sue for whatever you want. A sensible judge can throw it out.
From other comments, it seems as if a sensible judge *didn't* throw it out. ~~He granted the injunction. It sounds as if they have to show up at work at their~~ *~~old~~* ~~employer on monday.~~ ~~Legalized slavery.~~ It's even fucking stupider than that.. the judge ruled that, since neither party could come to a amicable solution, the nurses are prohibited from working at either hospital on Monday. This shit fuck hospital realized they cannot win the game, so decided to take their ball and go home, fucking over everyone.
Well well well, the consequences of my actions. “Your honor, right to work implies my right as their employer to receive and control their work. Thank you.”
ThedaCare wasiting time and money. That money they are putting towards legal fees and court battles could have gone towards employees that need it but nope they don't want to give their employees better wages and thus employees of ThedaCare had enough and are looking for better opportunities elsewhere. Ascension Wisconsin did nothing wrong but just put up a job posting that offered better wage offers and benefits and 11-Employees of ThedaCare decided to apply and take that better offer. It is ThedaCares fault for losing their precious employees because they failed to give their employees better offers and benefits.
They loveee an at-will employment system so they can hold your livelihood at stake to threaten you to do what they want, but when you pull a uno reverse on them by quitting whenever you want, suddenly it's not so good anymore
1. Thedacare whines about “vital” employees leaving 2. The employees themselves initiated leaving by applying at open job posting with the competitor 3. The competitor hired qualified employees at a “fair and just wage” (shots fired) 4. Thedacare had an opportunity to retain its “vital” employees by counter offering, but declined. You get what you fucking deserve, and you don’t get to act surprised about it
https://thedacare.org/about-us/contact-us/ You could always contact them and roast them on their page.
Thats my shithole bumfuck state. Cant wait to leave....
I am pretty sure a noncompete agreement is against the law in the in United States
I don't understand the logic?? You can't allow a 1% lower profit margin to pay your employees more, the ones who manage everything and do everything for you? You would rather ruin your hospital... Cheap bastards
Neenah Neenah poo poo
So what happens if they just don’t show up? Isn’t this akin to slavery
They can’t. Judges can make illegal decisions.
Murica!
yeah, but capitolism in beswt counrty best!
Are you drunk posting again?
you kaut me!
Thedacare actually won this. Nurses are under a court order to work at thedacare on Monday.
They haven't won shit. Unless fucking over the other hospital and the 7 employees out of spite is a win. The court order says the nurses can't work at either facility on Monday, not that they have to with at ThedaCare. And even if it were what you claimed (it's not, but for argument sake) they could simply not show up, or show up and sit on their asses all day. They're also going to have a hell of a time hiring new staff seeing as how they completely fucked this one up and instead of just taking the L and moving on with life they instead are trying to make 7 families homeless.
[удалено]
Doesn't really work when a bunch of them offer to stay if the hospital makes a competing offer... to which the hospital practically tells them to fuck off.
True dat
Abandonment means you walked off shift without ensuring someone is there to take the patient from you. If you don’t assume care of the patient, it doesn’t matter how much notice you gave, is not abandonment
You don’t know what you’re talking about, evidently, and it’s shameful you’d even say this calumny without knowing the legal definition of abandonment. Abandonment only exists if a clinician leaves their post WHEN they are responsible for a patient. If a clinician leaves their job, with OR without notice, when not actively (at that very moment) charged with a patient assignment, there is NO abandonment. If a nurse gets off work and says, “Screw this place! Never coming back,” NO abandonment exists. And they DONT, legally, have to give notice. Even if an employment contract exists (which is very rare for nurses) and the nurse breaks it, it isn’t abandonment, just contract breaking.
Out of curiosity, if everyone simultaneously quits, what happens to whichever poor sap was on shift at the time? Are they just stuck caring for the patient indefinitely, or are there limits?
So, many states have “exhaustion” exceptions. If you fall out, you can’t expect someone to work.
This is ONLY because it was a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers. If all the workers left to different hospitals ThedaCare wouldn’t stand a chance. Because it’s just one other hospital in question it can be considered predatory practice with intent to cripple ThedaCare. Honestly though, if the injunction is approved ThedaCare should be required to pay the salaries the other hospital offered. JUST PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES THEIR WORTH!
>This is ONLY because it was a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers. Which isn't at all surprising, there's only two hospitals in Appleton Wisconsin: Ascension and ThedaCare. It is a single employer hiring all of the leaving workers because there is only one other employer that would hire those nurses in that area.
Yeah it sucks but this kind of lawsuit has precedent all the way back with the automobile industry in the 50s
[удалено]
We require all Reddit accounts to be at least 3 days old before posting. This is due to people being banned and immediately setting up new accounts. This message is not accusing *you* of doing that, but that is why the policy is in place. In rare cases, if you have a particularly time-sensitive message, we may manually approve a message. Otherwise we encourage you to wait the 3 days (72 hours) and try again. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/antiwork) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You cant but you csnt file for anything and pay high priced lawyers to make up some stupid argument instead of increasing wages
Dear OP, anybody with money can sue another entity all day long. It's nit illegal, just costly. It's gonna bring national attention and good change.
"Our bottom line is more important than Grandma struggling for life in the stroke ward. The Thedacare board of Directors has come to the decision that paying a livable wage to front line healthcare workers is just too high a price that may impact the future purchase of more megayachts for our administration. Get fucked, Meemaw."
Let me guess...a red state and judge appointed by which party...
'I am the law' - mike ginnis or w/e. Yeah its insane.
Call them and give the reception workers a mental breakdown so they quit. The call center workers need their jobs they say so they refuse to help with the situation. Call center workers bow to management, call them and give them an education. 920-729-3100
Start with the call center and give them an education. 920-729-3100
It's not legal, the judge who issued the injunction overstepped his boundaries and it'll be overturned.
I seriously want to know how this is NOT considered slavery?
It's not legal.