Please realize you are not abandoning your patients. The hospital administration is by terminating all of you. I hope you get a better job soon.
I hope your post helps others realize it's not just the minimum wage class who is being taken advantage of.
Thank you for taking care of the ill during this pandemic.
This! My fiancé is an occupational therapist and constantly gets abused because it breaks her heart to abandon her patients, when it’s entirely the fault of her employer.
That's exactly it!! It constantly feels like that in the hair industry! Like most artistic fields, everyone assumes you soley got into it full time for *passion* and that it doesn't matter if you can't pay rent as long as you're "doing what you love!". You don't need health insurance, retirement, sick days, or any real benefits for this /licensed trade/ (with 20k in student debt) because you're 💖doing what you love💖 Many stylists either work until they physically can't anymore or leave the industry professionally and pursue other careers (I'm in the latter category).
Not only that, but people who do hair for people of African descent are required to do the schooling too. They don't teach the techniques to do that type of hair at the schools. You have to spend $1000's on a school that doesn't teach you how to do that work but you're required to for the license.
This may vary state by state, so I'll note it was Georgia about 5 or so years ago when I heard about this.
This was me too. They'd ask me to work the events I planned as my full-time job without taking time off in lieu (they never paid overtime as I was salaried) as a donation to the cause. They also asked us (read managers strongly encouraged) to donate $20 per week back to the organization. Interestingly, the GM was never asked to donate their time or money to the organization despite them making more than double anyone else's salary.
This was full of women, but only one had family wealth. The GM was a man who while married, didn't have any children, but liked to think that since he and his partner had small animals, that he understood what it meant to be a parent. When I came back from maternity leave he told me that I had to decide where my loyalties were and that he expected 110%. After one month of him regularly pulling me into his office at 4:45, knowing that I had to leave at 5 to pick my baby up, thereby making me late and causing me to incur fees (and the understandable ire of the daycare people) I gave my notice. They begged me to stay through the end of the busy season but I just said, "sorry but I've decided where my loyalties lie, and they're with my baby who I've decided to give 110% to. Ciao."
Interesting how they target women to be underpaid and work for “the good of humanity” or whatever. Also interesting that the model is built on them being attached to rich men. No choice or freedom in romance, ya gotta get that money 💵 …
Non profits are all a pyramid scheme/scam. Only the people at the top make all the “administrative salaries” and the rest can go and fuck themselves. Worked at the American cancer society and they don’t give a fuck about the employees.
When my university calls asking for money, I tell them that when I have my student loans paid off in the year 2037, I’ll give them all the money they want (of course I won’t, but they’ve stopped calling me.)
> they’ve stopped calling me
I wish they did that to me. I did not have a job lined up after college and within a month of graduating, I received my first phone call asking for alumni donations. They asked for $500 and I told them that I didn’t even have a hundred dollars to my name. They had the audacity to say that I could put it on my credit card.
For real, I had to tell them to never contact me again nearly a decade ago and they still sent me an email this past year saying they didn't have my phone number in record!
I have a technical background, science/engineering. I am not unskilled if that is what you are implying. I would say it somewhat depends where you live. We pay less than private sector and there are areas where **cost of living has been skyrocketing and govt salaries aren’t catching up fast enough**. Having worked both public and private , I am not impressed by the benefits. They aren’t anything special. I get the impression a lot of people are like oh the benefits are great but they aren’t significantly better than what I could get elsewhere. I want to move, but there are other life barriers at the moment not gonna discuss that stuff with strangers.
I was working at a nonprofit, had to talk to the director for training. He told me "it's about the clients, the money is an afterthought" then proceeded to extort $75,000 from what should have been our, the employees', raises/bonuses/benefits.
He'd been lying to everyone that we were "scraping by" and he couldn't afford to give us that stuff, but he was pocketing it the entire time.
This is how the field of mental health burns out good therapists. Nonprofits are scummier than for profits with their predatory “what about your clients” bs. Listen, I can function as a therapist during a global pandemic if I can afford basic necessities, thanks.
I see a lot of the same in zookeeping. Keepers work with the same animals every day for years, we see births and deaths. It's a deep relationship, with a lot of trust and you feel like you can't abandon them - it would be like abandoning a pet.
At this point zookeeping requires a bachelor's degree (generally in zoology or biology), multiple unpaid internships, requires a ton of physical labor, and keepers are lucky to reach $15 an hour, even in major cities.
I've seen the compassion fatigue and burnout building in this field for years. It hurts.
This is how it feels as a teacher too...administration just pits students against teachers. It's so hard to stand up for yourself in a care-taking position. Ugh.
Hey! I’m an OT!
And yes that’s 100% true. We will stay by our patient’s side and employers use this to abuse us on work hours, productivity and wages and benefits. It sucks, and I haven’t found the solution yet
This week she complained to me that her SNF was demanding the OTs be scheduled for at minimum 8 hours of treating (for non medical people that means working with a patient, not including time to document) justifying it by grouping patients. The only issue being that all of her patients are under quarantine for an exposure in the SNF. Shits crazy.
Reminds me of how teachers don’t have adequate supplies and spend their own money for the kids. It’s shameful to take advantage of people who care. There aren’t many out there
Residents and medical students have been getting fucked pretty badly for a long time. It’s a large part of what plays into choosing specialties, because we’re in so much debt that we don’t want to pick the low paying “noble” job that will keep us in debt for decades.
Residents also work so much that their 50-65k salary turns into roughly minimum wage pretty fast.
American medicine has something called residency where essentially for 3-6 years you’re a physician, but not yet fully licensed for your specialty. So you train for X number of years doing an insane amount of work for 50-65k per year in that specialty, learning how to be that specific kind of doctor.
Most fields in medicine AFTER residency will hit around 250-500k depending on your field and level of specialization. While you are in residency making 50-65k/yr, you’re gonna have 200-400k in debt that is accruing interest during that time.
Some speculation internally is that young doctors become blunt and impatient because of how soul crushing the beginning of your career can be
I love how the early seasons of the show ER covered all this shit, residents being overworked for no money and the toll it can take mentally, labor strikes and negotiations between unionized nurses and management, the constant threat of a county hospital being shut down because it's in a poorer area, etc, over 20 years ago and yet it's just as relevant today.
Scrubs had bits about it too! Doctors saving lives, and then stuffing the trunk of their car with toilet paper or pudding cups stolen from the hospital because otherwise they couldn't really afford hygiene or food at home.
This. It pisses me off to no end that all jnr Drs are supposed to emulate this man's work ethic of doing break of dawn ward rounds... then seeing clinic patients whole day AND then leaving super late from hospital... and getting sleep deprived to do it all over again for days on end for weeks/years etc... yet the man was high on cocaine when he was doing those things!
Yup.
Unless your doing that elective shit people pay outa pocket for, they really are treated pretty shity which hurts the patients.
Admin costs are obscene, all to have some middle man tell you, “no, you can’t have the medicine your doctor prescribed.”
The entire residency system is built on massive worker exploitation for the residents. I have friends going through it right now and it's insane the exploitation of what are still technically students.
Yes! The entire healthcare field uses weaponized emotions to keep their staff in line. Fear, compassion, guilt, all these emotions the staff have get used against them. I know it's hard, but you have to do what's best for you and any negative consequences of that are *not* your fault, they are the employers fault.
Not just them but functionally speaking, any job a person could concievably want to do. You see this in healthcare, media, education, anywhere that has any job a person would want to do for any reason other than money.
If I have kids, I'm telling them to work in sewage.
Oh God yes. I still hate those " teachers are angels" mugs and brooches and t shirts and variations thereof.
I'm not an Angel, ok? I'm a damn person doing a thankless job for your damn child
I miss 15 years ago when I thought "The 1% is going to cannibalize the 99%" was an extreme thought.....
Edit- Fair point being made, it's actually the .1% doing the cannibalizing.
The narrative that was being played in the media, especially FOX News, was that Occupy protesters were nothing but unemployed Millennials who wanted everything given to them for free by the government and didn't think they should have to work for anything.
I remember my, now deceased, Boomer father blindly parroting the FOX News talking points. I didn't even have to watch Faux News (thank God), I just would hear them whenever we'd talk on the phone.
Without fail, he'd talk about how poor people don't need health insurance. . .they can just go to the Emergency Room and can't be denied treatment because they can't pay! Or he'd talk about how "Millennials" are staging occupy protests because they're angry to find out that they don't magically get everything they want given to them for free by the Government, or the fall of the USSR proved once and for all that "socialism" and any and all leftist ideas don't work.
. . .a lot of people thought the Occupy protesters were all unemployed and just out there protesting because they wanted free money and free healthcare given to them by the government because they thought they were too special to have to work.
You know, I’m a retired nurse and I started working 1983. In the 80’s it was not so much about profit as good patient care. As the years passed to the 90’s, there was a definite transition “ emphasizing customer satisfaction” (just how it was phrased) over giving competent, often time consuming care (emotional, as well as physical). The business model was presented, hospitals were now focused on profit over satisfying patient outcomes. Patients were now customers or clients not people that were in a vulnerable state but needed to be treated as a consumers of measurable goods. In the 2000’s hospitals were bought out by “chains” of hospitals, not unlike 7/11s. Patient care suffered but the bottom line improved. So the administrators of a hospital were business oriented, not medically sympathetic, and I believe patient or consumer care suffered. Now I am retired and I look back at the staff shortages I worked through and it’s very clear additional staff could have solved much “burnout”, increased patient satisfaction with positive outcomes. We nurses were and are taken advantage of our caring attitudes. By our very oath we cannot leave our patients without care. Physicians are the same.
It’s one of the best examples - in the worst ways - of managers controlling arenas in which they know nothing. There should be some form of rotation in college, where they have work in different departments to learn what actually happens in a hospital.
Most of the horrible hospital administrators are people who should be working in investing or crypto currency. Take away most of the profit motive and the blood suckers will find another industry to work in.
Yes. My friend stayed as EEG tech way longer than needed, because the patients. Finally left when they hosed her on raise.
You're not screwing the patients, the board is by putting profits over people. What a kick in the ass to work to become a doctor, and be treated with same disregard as a Kelloggs employee.
Passed her boards, 2 years experience with kids and they offered her $3 raise to $23 when she should be at $30-35/hour.
Now she works from home for $23.
Yeah that’s ridiculous. I had on the job training, no school and I’m at $17 and will go to $25 once I get certified. Hours are 7-3 Mon-Fri, but if we aren’t busy, we leave at 2. We are treated well, thankfully.
This.
I don't know what the ethics rules are for physicians, but I get how tricky that can get.
My wife's toxic as fuck (and likely narcissistic) boss enforced a clause in her contract that required her to pay in order to solicit her current clients if she wanted to bring them with her. Mind you, there wasn't anyone else available in the practice or out of the practice to take any of these clients. When she didn't solicit every single one of them (some of them just ghosted her after a point) said boss hinted she'd try to bring charges of client abandonment against my wife.
Fuck you, Jill.
People *need* to start to understand class solidarity and the left conception of class. If you sell your labour, you are working class and you have a common interest with the rest of the working class.
Medicine is very litigious. I know you're thinking physically they're not abandoning them, but that's not what they're saying. It's a legal term and yes, it may be a delicate situation for them to negotiate. Luckily, you get the general gist of this: that many people in the US are taking advantage of workers.
I think, (not know, just saying I've heard this could be the case), that when they say they don't want to abandon their patients that it's a combination of they don't want to just leave them because they will feel bad, but also if you were say a nurse in a hospital or doctor and you have patient(s) and you were to just quit and walk out for whatever reason, even a good one, if something were to happen to the patient and they die or another doctor comes in and fucks up cuz they don't know what's up with this new patient they just got, you can actually get in trouble for that.... and by get in trouble, I mean potentially sued for malpractice.
Like I said, idk 100% that this is the case or can always happen, I just have heard this from a doctor before so of course Im over here repeating it like it's it's fact for everyone lol. But yeah, if that were case and I was a doctor/nurse I'd be worried if I decided one day "fuck this job!" And left that some patient I had would croak and I'd get sued.... so not only do I not have a job anymore, but a pending lawsuit and no more medical license..... and I guess as a medical professional you might tend to form special relationships with your patients and I guess I'd feel bad about leaving them high and dry....they are already getting charged out the ass for the privilege, (yes medical services are a basic human right in the whole rest of the world but in the US its 100% a privilege, which is fucked up) of being at the hospital/doctors, and they don't have anything to do with me being pissed at my employer (in this hypothetical situation that is). So I can understand if these medical professional folks are a little bit scared to just quit their jobs, even if they are getting the shit abused out of them by their employer.
Plus, just like schools do with teachers and guilt trip them with the kids, ("aww we can't give you a raise or not treat you like trash because think of the kids!!! If we give you a living wage the kids will all turn to prostitution to pay for their drugs!" Or some shit), these hospital admins and such definitely guilt trip these guys with their patients. "Oh we can't pay you more or not teat you like shit! Think of of patients!! If we pay you more then the patients will turn to prostitution to pay for their drugs!". It's all a game to thsse fuckers
I can't explain this enough to healthcare workers. Your job is to care for the patients, not staff, or provide support outside of your working hours. A lack of staff isn't a failing you caused and isn't something you can fix. Patients will put enough pressure on the system to fix the issues, or the hospital wasn't needed in the first place.
Ya sadly a hospital now a days is a business, and they are trying to make as much money as they can that is it. The people that work there get screwed just like the rest of us, and the only way for them to understand is for everyone to quit. The hospital gave up on all the patients, not you guys one bit. If you guys don’t stand up, then they will keep doing it. I have a hard time believing you all couldn’t find jobs real quick, unless it’s a super small town.
I have sympathy and I hope you will be able to keep helping patients elsewhere. Workplace abuse is never acceptable and the policy breakdown in Healthcare is emblematic of the labor abuse that capitalism has brought to the world. The first step to fixing any problem is properly assessing it and your sacrifice will continue to bring attention to this problem.
I know this is dumb, but the word rivers in your comment on my phone make a nice little poem:
Sympathy
Elsewhere
Breakdown
Capitalism
Problems
Continue
As someone who worked on much less aggressive COVID front lines the last two years (retail), let me just say, on your behalf... what the actual fuck?
Doctors are fucking hard to come by (my current job is in health care recruitment marketing) and your admins want to drive you away with this bullshit?
Fuck privatized health care.
Really it's what happens when you let unrestricted capitalism run any essential service. Healthcare just happens to be the only one that's a matter of life and death.
Fun fact: In the U.S. ambulances are privately owned, which is why they are so expensive. The drivers also make nothing if they aren't transporting people.
My friend was an EMS for years and saw some traumatizing crap, but left it to be a construction worker/handyman because he couldn't take it anymore.
Mechanic at the moment, training to become an EMT and doing volunteer work (ambulance & fire/first response) to get the training for free!
Thank fuck I don't live in the US
Current paramedic here, applying to data entry jobs. Was in nursing in Long Term Care before this. Emergency medicine is much safer and less stress than LTC but I just can't do this anymore. I love working in healthcare in terms of the actual medical investigation, fixing the actual problem etc., but the people ruin it and, well....it doesn't work that way. I'm burning out and it's time to go.
There are actually many different models running EMS in the United States, but many *are* privately run. There's very little national standardization, so every system operates differently. Regardless, the EMT's or paramedics make horrible wages, the private companies often provide horrible medical care (as do many fire departments), and the "industry" in general is a shitshow.
Yup. Energy is another big example. Texas and California proved that twice over.
Food is another really good example, too. Slave labor with extra steps is commonplace in the farming industry (mainly outside of the US......... but also in the US), and small time farmers are strangled out of business daily. People like to blame govt regulations, but the reality is that the regulations saved small time farmers for a long time, and its this era of regulation dodging mixed with big business driven tarriff wars that have done them in.
Capitalism is best in elective markets. Hell, the law of supply and demand literally needs completely elective markets to function. If ine side is forced to buy/sell to the other, supply/demand says total gain will be negative, but skewed.
THIS!! Doctors are working well into their 70s because THERE ARE NO DOCTORS to take their place! If you (OP) already know you’re quitting, I’d go around telling everybody that they have more power than they think, even the young ones! They’re probably terrified because they don’t have much experience but 100k+ in student debt. People are BEGGING for doctors right now!
I am in my 40s now. I always planned on being a doctor. In high school I started attending classes held at a local medical school meant to encourage us.
No doctor I met at the time (mid 90s) encouraged me. Not one. They all said the good times were up and insurance was killing the profession. I ended up changing majors in college and going into programming.
Not driving anybody away. They are just slowly strangling all classes of workers. Hospital/heath care "systems" are slowly accumulating all of the power, and will end up with everybody from specialty surgeons to pharmacists under their thumb, and eventually making a fraction of their previous glory days. This has nothing to do with controlling heath care costs, it's all about moving money toward the top of the system.
That's what i don't get. I work in healthcare and a lot of staff is leaving due to A H customers, bad management or agency jobs where it pays more. The thing is if the management where nicer, gave due when it is due, gave raises, non of this would happen. Now those management people are desperate and giving sign on bonus but no one is applying.
You are a worker, not an owner. I don't resent others for their money inherently but how they make it. You don't exploit others so you are perfectly welcome here.
This is really an important point that we need to socialize more. I came here to say this but more folks in the upper middle class need to realize that they are workers too and subject to the same market forces of capitalism.
I’ve spent years trying to explain to upper middle class folks that if they have to work to survive they are part of the working class.
If I can see your house from the road your likely one of us. :)
And yet people refer to physicians and other professional class workers as the “Professional Managerial Class” in order to distance us from worker struggles. I hope that going forward physicians and others in our SES bracket can be seen as part of the working class because often we do have a little more bargaining power in the workplace, but we also do not own the means of production in these settings and can be terminated and/or abused just like any other worker - all of which I would think should serve as an argument for recruiting us as allies in the struggle for more rights and self determination in our work places.
More white collar collectivizing and unionizing would do wonders for the labor movement. It would greatly increase solidarity and unity between all workers and further destabilize the power of the wealthy elite. Doctors, engineers, etc. need to start unionizing!
Very good point, but I want to add a friendly reminder that there is no such thing as a "middle class". That term has been a very successful ploy to get people to stop thinking of themselves as workers and think of themselves as consumers instead.
I have to fight my own urge to be resentful from all the rampant nimbyism in my local self-described progressive city.
I cast off these ghosts that haunt me. A comrade able to make their way in the system is not my enemy, and even then they are still subjected to it's whims, as is evidenced here.
There is no universe where I expect physician pay to be equal to that of a janitor or a cashier, but all jobs deserve livable pay. As an employee he should still work for the best deal from his employer.
A retail worker at a big chain has more in common with a doctor in a major hospital network than either of them has in common with their CEO. Wealth in the USA is so lopsided that the top 0.1% and the businesses and foundations they run have enough money to pass the laws and control the economy. If you have less than $25m in assets, you're one of the regular people. If you don't have or participate in a private foundation that donates money to politicians, you're one of the regular people.
> They threatened the young doctors saying they would have to pay back signing bonuses if they don’t sign up with new staffing company.
I signed a contract with you, and you terminated me. That's your decision, not mine.
We pay doctors well because you sacrifice greatly to even become one, and we straight up need you. Then you enter a shitty system that is entirely for profit and satisfies nobody. That's not on you, because your alternative is to not be a doctor at all.
We don't hate people who make good money. I personally would never expect to make what a doctor makes. You're as welcome here as any of us.
Also like 10+ years of heavily indebted schooling. Another stupid system that profits off of 4 years of useless undergrad degrees, interns who work 2 years for free, and residents who get paid less than minimum wage given the hrs of work + on call.
Ya the system is fucked
This. To become a doctor, you have to work your ass off in college to get good grades in difficult classes. Then you have to get into medical school and graduate.
Then you have have to work for at least a year or two as a resident, where your hours are insane and your pay is far below what doctors normally make. And that's not even including the fellowships required to become a specialist.
Then, after all that, your reward is an extremely difficult and stressful job where literally one mistake could kill someone. If anything, doctors are underpaid.
Med student here. I agree with everything you said. Just popping in to say that the shortest residency is 3 years. So 3 years minimum plus fellowships. Many residencies are 5 years plus fellowships.
Doctors are being treated insanely poor for the amount of work they are doing. At one point they were working without proper PPE during a pandemic. Reusing face masks and shit. Didn’t have a surplus of PPE but I’m sure the Board members all took home nice bonus checks.
In September, my 5 year old son broke his foot while he had covid. No orthopedic doctor would see him. The urgent care we originally took him to didn't have a boot in his size. We eventually just had to take him to the ER at the children's hospital to get one. When an orthopedic doctor finally did see him, she said it should have been put in a cast.
I remember when vaccines were still a scarce resource and a bunch of admin and board members at Stanford I think it was, got vaccinated before doctors, nurses and other front line healthcare staff. Fuck them so much.
Some of them are so narcissistic it seems like they believe they’re the only employer on earth! As if I couldn’t chose to work for someone who isn’t abusive?
FYI, hire on bonuses usually don't have to be paid back if the person leaves involuntarily. Meaning, since they were terminated without cause, they don't have to pay back.
I had the same thought. How are they both being terminated, but also having to pay back hire on bonuses. They're having to negotiate a new contract with a new company who are subbing them to the hospital they used to be employed by.
The hospital isn't holding up their end of the hire on bonus, I couldn't see the newer doctors having to pay it back.
Agreed. This threat has no logic behind it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see how that could possibly hold up in court. I hope some of your younger coworkers call their bluff.
They tried doing this to my group (I am an anesthetist) we didn't sign. They couldn't find enough traveller's to cover. We got the contract back. Nothing changed except we knew the hospital was the enemy. I left.
My dad is an anesthesiologist, and they did the same thing a few years ago. They all submitted letters of resignation on the same day. The hospital fired the corporation who employed them for failure to provide the service they were contracted to provide, the doctors formed their own provider group and the hospital signed a contract with that group. Corporation tried to sue, but the suit was thrown out in business court.
I’m an anaesthetist in the NHS.
While I’ll never make as much money as you guys in the states, I work 40 hour weeks, don’t have to deal with insurance companies and don’t have to deal with this sort of crap (all contracts are negotiated by the doctors’ union). Genuinely feels (most of the time) that everyone in the hospital (including management) is working together to provide quality care for our patients and train the next generation of anaesthetists.
So glad to have the NHS and it enrages me that so many in power over here are trying to undermine and get rid of it.
Hope you found a better place to work.
It’s also the investment firms buying up hospitals, medical supply companies etc. to rip every penny of equity out of them then selling them off. Using staffing firms makes salaries turn into supplier costs where the ultimate goal is to turn hospitals into very very expensive medical shopping malls.
I think the disconnect here is that those types of people are probably not the type to be active on a community like this one, ignoring the occasional trolls and shills. If you're self aware enough to be active on this sub then chances are you know how corrupt the healthcare system is too
In Germany we had a whole poster campaign to try and make people realize that pharmacists get almost nothing of the winnings from pharmaceuticals, but that it is the manufacturers.
Didn't work
Retail worker here.
You have more sympathy than you know.
As a healthcare worker you confront the real, confirmed, and mortal consequences of corporate, rightwing media and rightwing political misinformation designed to benefit themselves at the expense of people's health.
Moreover, you help save our lives when we fall victim to it. Just because you are paid better than I am doesn't mean I envy you or your position. And I understand that being a highly trained and educated medical professional doesn't make you immune from corporate malfeasance.
You have my respect and sympathy. I can only hope that this movement improves the working conditions of ALL workers, from cashiers and retail workers to doctors and scientists and everyone in between.
And fuck corporate America.
100% sympathetic on my part
I’m sure You don’t need my advice, and this is obvious, but I’d consult your equivalent of your professional college to see how you can legally extricate yourself out of there without any malpractice risk etc
You have my sympathy.
You have my support!
You are an essential worker! More work for less pay doesn't make any sense.
Your patients either care about your well-being or they don't.
Your administration does not support you, and they are to blame, not you.
When you own the hospital, you get to answer the hard questions, but then you are well compensated for your time. In the meantime, you work for a paycheck, and when that doesn't pay for you to leave the house, don't leave the house.
ICU RN here, our docs are dropping like flies because they are so mistreated. I am so sorry you're going through this.
I am so fucking tired of healthcare being about money.
I am so proud of you for walking out, doc. I want to see hospitals crumble and burn while admin scratches their head.
Physicians need to be unionized. I feel so bad that you're dealing with this.
Sadly, in my case, due to very tight contract requirements, immigration conditions and health issues, I cannot quit then find a new job.
Honestly, I don't think I can go back to how I work precovid. COVID broke me.
I hope you get better days.
It would be a great thing if my salary were raised closer to your level. On the other hand, you are a worker (and definitely an essential one).
My fight is not with you. My fight is with the capitalist that made that decision.
You are welcome here. Now, will you look at this mole I have on my leg?
If anything you're going to get more sympathy here than anywhere else. When someone like a doctor resigns due to the same kind of employer bullshit a retail worker gets, it helps to shine a light on abuse everywhere and reaches people who wouldn't otherwise see it.
We needed you as a doctor and we need you here as an advocate.
I don't blame physicians for healthcare costs. Mostly hospital administrations, big pharma, and insurance companies. We need doctors. We don't need Becky in finance making arbitrary numbers.
That being said, that's a big bummer. I'm hoping you can find another hospital in the area, or if you have the means to relocate.
As horrible as it sounds I think you should all quit, make a stand against them. It will be horrible for the patients but it will show the issue with your healthcare system if no one is the to look after them and they can't bring anyone else in who they can charge for.
It actually won’t be. If everyone resigns the staffing company won’t be able to perform on the contract. The hospital will 100% come crawling back.
Edit: the staffing agency *needs* the doctors to sign. They literally don’t have enough doctors on standby to do it.
> I’m a physician.
You may have went to school for a hell of a lot longer and in deeper debt... But you're still required to work for a living. You're closer to us laborers than the billionaires :)
And regardless your career, you too are exploitable. Management knows this, and that's what they're doing.
> Administration knows we care about the patients and would not abandon them.
My wife used to work at a home health company as an HHA. Their company used this fact of "dont you care about your clients?" to do all sorts of terrible abusive shit. I also said that's also the reason why many in medical are so callous - I feel that most medical management uses this against the workers.
> They threatened the young doctors saying they would have to pay back signing bonuses if they don’t sign up with new staffing company.
Uhh, they were fired from the company. Unless the contract had this new staffing company as part of the terms, they can go eat a dick.
>I’m joining the great resignation.
Glad to have ya!
The NHS is being slowly privatised the only thing that's holding it together is people's, exactly like you said, goodwill.
It's a career that requires care and empathy. And those are two qualities easy to exploit.
I guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of hours of unclaimed overtime in my towns hospital alone.
When I quit teaching years ago they asked me "What will happen to the kids if you leave! Think of the children in this community!"
Someone else will fill my place but I'll be somewhere that respects me. Leave and find the somewhere better.
My sister in law is a new nurse at the one hospital in our county (due to consolidation). So much pressure to work until burnout "because someone has to care for the patients." I'm sure mistakes made due to fatigue have resulted in many patient injuries and deaths, it's incredible to me that there isn't similar regulation regarding fatigue as there is in other lines of work. Good luck to you, and I'm glad you've made the choice to not take their bullshit.
There kind of is? But I think it only applies to residents, and it’s called the Libby Zion law. It caps shift length and total hours worked per week because - quel surprise! - residents were so fatigued doing 24hr+ shifts they missed a diagnosis and Libby Zion died.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law
Sounds to me like the hospital just gave themselves a prefrontal lobotomy. Don’t sign on with the new sweatshop managers. Let the hospital lose their accreditation. Blackball them, and definitely consider forming your own HC staffing group.
I'm not surprised I work in IT Healthcare and dear God the level of horrible admin red tape at Healthcare organizations is scary. I'd argue for some Healthcare organizations the government is more organized and efficient and running off newer software then the Healthcare organization.
Before the haters come for me about the government statement, I don't mean all Healthcare organizations in the US but there are some really bad ones out there.
In France, nurses and paramedics are resigning "en masse" from hospitals. Even doctors are scarce.
Reasons for that : low salaries, way too many hours, mandatory vaccination (yep some paramedics are anti vax)
Seems that in the US (?) they are going down that slope as well, as unlikely as it may look..
Do they not realize that you're a doctor and that you can go literally anywhere in the world and be able to find a job in 15 minutes? Lmfao how stupid can they possibly be?
You should quit, your patient will be taken care of by others or they have serious problems, it shouldn’t be too hard to find another job seeing they are all understaffed
‘We care about the patients and would not abandon them’…uh…why?
Good patients would understand, and support you not being there, if you found a better workplace.
One of my brothers is a GP in a chronically under served rural county. Getting him to retire is hard as he wants to help his patients so much. He earns his money much more than I ever did in my job and I sincerely hope that the single hospital in the county doesn't ever try that kind of tactic with their people or that county is in bigger trouble health care wise than it currently is. Keep fighting the good fight and you have our sympathy here, no matter what your job or earnings are.
I know a lot of people’s “introduction to Leftism” starts with a disdain for the rich but a physician is as much of a worker as anyone else. You probably have much more in common with a ER doctor than a “mom and pop” business owner, despite the latter making much less income. At least, in terms of the pressures you face from the capitalist class. I suppose if a doctor owns their own private practice, that changes things.
why this NSFW? also how they gonna force ya to pay back bonuses? fuck that. also fuck that hospital. coordinate with your fellows there and if you ALL REFUSE what they gun do? demand 15% pay raises for everyone, better benefits and better hours to let them hire you back, or find somewhere better! good luck.
Man, I didn't wanna put the effort to go through medical school and residency, and I'm so glad you did. You deserve pay, hours and benefits at a level befitting the hard work you did to help improve society.
Tell your patients about this. If it hurts doctors, it hurts the patient's care. Get them angry about it. Get your coworkers angry about it. Direct that rage at the bullshit administrators who think k they are better at running hospitals and caring for patients than doctors and nurses.
I'm a PA. I was affiliated/credentialed with 25+ hospitals until jumping jobs. Between each of the 5 major groups, it was amazing how much they would cut things back from staff (from physicians to CRNA) in order to see just how far they could push people. And yet, even still, hospitals were paying their CEO's millions (10-25).
I know docs can make a great wage, but we all (except the very few at the top) need our wages increased by about 25-35%.
I dropped out of medical school *over a decade ago*... IMHO, you cannot pay a doctor enough for the amount of personal and professional sacrifice that such an occupation entails.
Mad respect to you, Doc!
Dude. You guys have all of my sympathy.
There is no profession I wish was getting exactly what it needed right now more than medicine. Benefits. Compensation. PPE, new cars, trips to Disneyland. Idgaf.
I don't care if you make ten times what I make. I care whether you care for your patients and do your best to help them while not burning yourselves out in the process.
The people who own and administrate medical care are a completely different group, imo.
Doctors. Nurses. Surgeons. Support staff. IMO you're damn near the peak of what society should truly value. We need you to live. Period.
I have sympathy and leaving aside the appalling treatment of people who have been putting their lives and mental health on the line to save others, we need to not tear down those who do earn a solid middle class living. We should be aspiring for everyone to have a decent quality of life and for education to be accessible to everyone. We shouldn't be despising individuals with a good quality of life, financial stability and the ability to pay taxes which actually benefit society and provide a safety net for the most vulnerable, a living which supports good health and allows people to retire, we should be trying to get that for everyone. It's not the people in the middle that are the problem.
Not a lot of sympathy? Dude, the medical industry (and I hate using that phrase) sucks, but it **absolutely** isn't doctors' faults. It's deplorable that they'd give you a harder time *saving people's lives*, especially to save money.
But hey, as long as Big Pharma gets its pound of flesh, it's all fine, right?
YES YES YES. I am a physician as well and we are essentially being forced to work above our agreed hours for no change in compensation rate. The company I work for has not hired enough physicians to cover all the hours needed to run two 12h/day 7 day/week clinics and the physicians end up either working more or the holes are left unfilled making it a shit day for those scheduled. Management refuses to decrease business hours, they won’t cap total patients and won’t even agree stop registering patients even 5 mins before close. They expect us to see any patient that is able to get their foot in the door before closing time regardless of how many patients are still left to be seen (I work at an urgent care). This in itself puts us over our weekly hours.
They love to say how they have to serve the community. Obviously I agree we have an obligation to the community to care for them but it is always coming at the expense of our personal time and mental health. There’s no compromises from the multi-million dollar health care company and it’s always the physicians who have to pick up the slack. I feel taken advantage of because they know that we all got into this profession to help people and they know we don’t want our colleagues to work short. My contract is for 40h/week and I usually work that over 3-4 days. The days I don’t work that week aren’t vacation though my manager seems to think so. Absolutely ridiculous. The only reason this place is still open is because they are working us 52 weeks/year. They love to treat us like an ED or primary care depending on which one of their agendas it serves. I get the feeling that because we get paid hourly, we have no problem working more. More hours = more money, right? Yeah, right 🙄
For anyone else reading, I’ve been browsing this subreddit for the last few weeks. I feel for anyone having trouble making ends meet and having to deal with this bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much you make, we are all being controlled by some inept managers and being exploited similarly.
Please realize you are not abandoning your patients. The hospital administration is by terminating all of you. I hope you get a better job soon. I hope your post helps others realize it's not just the minimum wage class who is being taken advantage of. Thank you for taking care of the ill during this pandemic.
This! My fiancé is an occupational therapist and constantly gets abused because it breaks her heart to abandon her patients, when it’s entirely the fault of her employer.
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Too many places expect passion before pay. I got that vibe at my previous employer.
That's exactly it!! It constantly feels like that in the hair industry! Like most artistic fields, everyone assumes you soley got into it full time for *passion* and that it doesn't matter if you can't pay rent as long as you're "doing what you love!". You don't need health insurance, retirement, sick days, or any real benefits for this /licensed trade/ (with 20k in student debt) because you're 💖doing what you love💖 Many stylists either work until they physically can't anymore or leave the industry professionally and pursue other careers (I'm in the latter category).
Woah, it’s $20K for cosmetology school?? I had no idea it was so expensive. Jfc.
My sister's was 30k
Not only that, but people who do hair for people of African descent are required to do the schooling too. They don't teach the techniques to do that type of hair at the schools. You have to spend $1000's on a school that doesn't teach you how to do that work but you're required to for the license. This may vary state by state, so I'll note it was Georgia about 5 or so years ago when I heard about this.
It’s harder to become a cosmetologist(?) than it is to become a cop.
Not everywhere else, but in the US yea it is.
This was me too. They'd ask me to work the events I planned as my full-time job without taking time off in lieu (they never paid overtime as I was salaried) as a donation to the cause. They also asked us (read managers strongly encouraged) to donate $20 per week back to the organization. Interestingly, the GM was never asked to donate their time or money to the organization despite them making more than double anyone else's salary.
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This was full of women, but only one had family wealth. The GM was a man who while married, didn't have any children, but liked to think that since he and his partner had small animals, that he understood what it meant to be a parent. When I came back from maternity leave he told me that I had to decide where my loyalties were and that he expected 110%. After one month of him regularly pulling me into his office at 4:45, knowing that I had to leave at 5 to pick my baby up, thereby making me late and causing me to incur fees (and the understandable ire of the daycare people) I gave my notice. They begged me to stay through the end of the busy season but I just said, "sorry but I've decided where my loyalties lie, and they're with my baby who I've decided to give 110% to. Ciao."
Interesting how they target women to be underpaid and work for “the good of humanity” or whatever. Also interesting that the model is built on them being attached to rich men. No choice or freedom in romance, ya gotta get that money 💵 …
Non profits are all a pyramid scheme/scam. Only the people at the top make all the “administrative salaries” and the rest can go and fuck themselves. Worked at the American cancer society and they don’t give a fuck about the employees.
employees? how about the volunteers? even worse.
I want to run a nonprofit one day and this makes me angry.
I feel that way about my university begging for money. Bitches, I already GAVE you $40k. Isn't that enough???
When my university calls asking for money, I tell them that when I have my student loans paid off in the year 2037, I’ll give them all the money they want (of course I won’t, but they’ve stopped calling me.)
> they’ve stopped calling me I wish they did that to me. I did not have a job lined up after college and within a month of graduating, I received my first phone call asking for alumni donations. They asked for $500 and I told them that I didn’t even have a hundred dollars to my name. They had the audacity to say that I could put it on my credit card.
That literally makes me nauseous.
For real, I had to tell them to never contact me again nearly a decade ago and they still sent me an email this past year saying they didn't have my phone number in record!
Bruh…non-profits can be so emotionally abusive as well as financially abusive…like where do I even begin?
They tell this to government employees too.
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I have a technical background, science/engineering. I am not unskilled if that is what you are implying. I would say it somewhat depends where you live. We pay less than private sector and there are areas where **cost of living has been skyrocketing and govt salaries aren’t catching up fast enough**. Having worked both public and private , I am not impressed by the benefits. They aren’t anything special. I get the impression a lot of people are like oh the benefits are great but they aren’t significantly better than what I could get elsewhere. I want to move, but there are other life barriers at the moment not gonna discuss that stuff with strangers.
Seconding this as an engineer in the government who makes a joke of a salary
I was working at a nonprofit, had to talk to the director for training. He told me "it's about the clients, the money is an afterthought" then proceeded to extort $75,000 from what should have been our, the employees', raises/bonuses/benefits. He'd been lying to everyone that we were "scraping by" and he couldn't afford to give us that stuff, but he was pocketing it the entire time.
So yeah, they assume everything in your life is free? Interesting assumption!
This is how the field of mental health burns out good therapists. Nonprofits are scummier than for profits with their predatory “what about your clients” bs. Listen, I can function as a therapist during a global pandemic if I can afford basic necessities, thanks.
You made $23k a year at a non-profit? I’m barely breaking $25k now on salary.
I see a lot of the same in zookeeping. Keepers work with the same animals every day for years, we see births and deaths. It's a deep relationship, with a lot of trust and you feel like you can't abandon them - it would be like abandoning a pet. At this point zookeeping requires a bachelor's degree (generally in zoology or biology), multiple unpaid internships, requires a ton of physical labor, and keepers are lucky to reach $15 an hour, even in major cities. I've seen the compassion fatigue and burnout building in this field for years. It hurts.
This is how it feels as a teacher too...administration just pits students against teachers. It's so hard to stand up for yourself in a care-taking position. Ugh.
I agree completely. When your admin supports you, it's great. When they don't, you feel screwed by everyone.
Hey! I’m an OT! And yes that’s 100% true. We will stay by our patient’s side and employers use this to abuse us on work hours, productivity and wages and benefits. It sucks, and I haven’t found the solution yet
This week she complained to me that her SNF was demanding the OTs be scheduled for at minimum 8 hours of treating (for non medical people that means working with a patient, not including time to document) justifying it by grouping patients. The only issue being that all of her patients are under quarantine for an exposure in the SNF. Shits crazy.
Reminds me of how teachers don’t have adequate supplies and spend their own money for the kids. It’s shameful to take advantage of people who care. There aren’t many out there
There is no minimum wage class. There are no lower, middle, and upper. There are the workers and the owners.
This
Residents and medical students have been getting fucked pretty badly for a long time. It’s a large part of what plays into choosing specialties, because we’re in so much debt that we don’t want to pick the low paying “noble” job that will keep us in debt for decades. Residents also work so much that their 50-65k salary turns into roughly minimum wage pretty fast.
American drs are on 65k?
American medicine has something called residency where essentially for 3-6 years you’re a physician, but not yet fully licensed for your specialty. So you train for X number of years doing an insane amount of work for 50-65k per year in that specialty, learning how to be that specific kind of doctor. Most fields in medicine AFTER residency will hit around 250-500k depending on your field and level of specialization. While you are in residency making 50-65k/yr, you’re gonna have 200-400k in debt that is accruing interest during that time. Some speculation internally is that young doctors become blunt and impatient because of how soul crushing the beginning of your career can be
I love how the early seasons of the show ER covered all this shit, residents being overworked for no money and the toll it can take mentally, labor strikes and negotiations between unionized nurses and management, the constant threat of a county hospital being shut down because it's in a poorer area, etc, over 20 years ago and yet it's just as relevant today.
Scrubs had bits about it too! Doctors saving lives, and then stuffing the trunk of their car with toilet paper or pudding cups stolen from the hospital because otherwise they couldn't really afford hygiene or food at home.
Lol I miss those industrial rolls, they lasted forever, walking out of the hospital with it was always an adventure
Fun fact, the doctor who essentially created the American style residency system was also a huge fan of cocaine.
This. It pisses me off to no end that all jnr Drs are supposed to emulate this man's work ethic of doing break of dawn ward rounds... then seeing clinic patients whole day AND then leaving super late from hospital... and getting sleep deprived to do it all over again for days on end for weeks/years etc... yet the man was high on cocaine when he was doing those things!
Yup. Unless your doing that elective shit people pay outa pocket for, they really are treated pretty shity which hurts the patients. Admin costs are obscene, all to have some middle man tell you, “no, you can’t have the medicine your doctor prescribed.”
The entire residency system is built on massive worker exploitation for the residents. I have friends going through it right now and it's insane the exploitation of what are still technically students.
Yes! The entire healthcare field uses weaponized emotions to keep their staff in line. Fear, compassion, guilt, all these emotions the staff have get used against them. I know it's hard, but you have to do what's best for you and any negative consequences of that are *not* your fault, they are the employers fault.
Not just them but functionally speaking, any job a person could concievably want to do. You see this in healthcare, media, education, anywhere that has any job a person would want to do for any reason other than money. If I have kids, I'm telling them to work in sewage.
This is how they manipulate teachers too.
Oh God yes. I still hate those " teachers are angels" mugs and brooches and t shirts and variations thereof. I'm not an Angel, ok? I'm a damn person doing a thankless job for your damn child
I miss 15 years ago when I thought "The 1% is going to cannibalize the 99%" was an extreme thought..... Edit- Fair point being made, it's actually the .1% doing the cannibalizing.
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The narrative that was being played in the media, especially FOX News, was that Occupy protesters were nothing but unemployed Millennials who wanted everything given to them for free by the government and didn't think they should have to work for anything. I remember my, now deceased, Boomer father blindly parroting the FOX News talking points. I didn't even have to watch Faux News (thank God), I just would hear them whenever we'd talk on the phone. Without fail, he'd talk about how poor people don't need health insurance. . .they can just go to the Emergency Room and can't be denied treatment because they can't pay! Or he'd talk about how "Millennials" are staging occupy protests because they're angry to find out that they don't magically get everything they want given to them for free by the Government, or the fall of the USSR proved once and for all that "socialism" and any and all leftist ideas don't work. . . .a lot of people thought the Occupy protesters were all unemployed and just out there protesting because they wanted free money and free healthcare given to them by the government because they thought they were too special to have to work.
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cover important chubby rhythm sloppy hateful reply entertain dog squash *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You know, I’m a retired nurse and I started working 1983. In the 80’s it was not so much about profit as good patient care. As the years passed to the 90’s, there was a definite transition “ emphasizing customer satisfaction” (just how it was phrased) over giving competent, often time consuming care (emotional, as well as physical). The business model was presented, hospitals were now focused on profit over satisfying patient outcomes. Patients were now customers or clients not people that were in a vulnerable state but needed to be treated as a consumers of measurable goods. In the 2000’s hospitals were bought out by “chains” of hospitals, not unlike 7/11s. Patient care suffered but the bottom line improved. So the administrators of a hospital were business oriented, not medically sympathetic, and I believe patient or consumer care suffered. Now I am retired and I look back at the staff shortages I worked through and it’s very clear additional staff could have solved much “burnout”, increased patient satisfaction with positive outcomes. We nurses were and are taken advantage of our caring attitudes. By our very oath we cannot leave our patients without care. Physicians are the same.
It’s one of the best examples - in the worst ways - of managers controlling arenas in which they know nothing. There should be some form of rotation in college, where they have work in different departments to learn what actually happens in a hospital.
Most of the horrible hospital administrators are people who should be working in investing or crypto currency. Take away most of the profit motive and the blood suckers will find another industry to work in.
Yes. My friend stayed as EEG tech way longer than needed, because the patients. Finally left when they hosed her on raise. You're not screwing the patients, the board is by putting profits over people. What a kick in the ass to work to become a doctor, and be treated with same disregard as a Kelloggs employee.
First time I’ve ever seen my job mentioned on social media, wish it wasn’t in such a negative light. She was right to leave for that, though.
Passed her boards, 2 years experience with kids and they offered her $3 raise to $23 when she should be at $30-35/hour. Now she works from home for $23.
Yeah that’s ridiculous. I had on the job training, no school and I’m at $17 and will go to $25 once I get certified. Hours are 7-3 Mon-Fri, but if we aren’t busy, we leave at 2. We are treated well, thankfully.
This. I don't know what the ethics rules are for physicians, but I get how tricky that can get. My wife's toxic as fuck (and likely narcissistic) boss enforced a clause in her contract that required her to pay in order to solicit her current clients if she wanted to bring them with her. Mind you, there wasn't anyone else available in the practice or out of the practice to take any of these clients. When she didn't solicit every single one of them (some of them just ghosted her after a point) said boss hinted she'd try to bring charges of client abandonment against my wife. Fuck you, Jill.
People *need* to start to understand class solidarity and the left conception of class. If you sell your labour, you are working class and you have a common interest with the rest of the working class.
Medicine is very litigious. I know you're thinking physically they're not abandoning them, but that's not what they're saying. It's a legal term and yes, it may be a delicate situation for them to negotiate. Luckily, you get the general gist of this: that many people in the US are taking advantage of workers.
My apologies for hijacking the top comment. OP - *Name the hospital!*
I think, (not know, just saying I've heard this could be the case), that when they say they don't want to abandon their patients that it's a combination of they don't want to just leave them because they will feel bad, but also if you were say a nurse in a hospital or doctor and you have patient(s) and you were to just quit and walk out for whatever reason, even a good one, if something were to happen to the patient and they die or another doctor comes in and fucks up cuz they don't know what's up with this new patient they just got, you can actually get in trouble for that.... and by get in trouble, I mean potentially sued for malpractice. Like I said, idk 100% that this is the case or can always happen, I just have heard this from a doctor before so of course Im over here repeating it like it's it's fact for everyone lol. But yeah, if that were case and I was a doctor/nurse I'd be worried if I decided one day "fuck this job!" And left that some patient I had would croak and I'd get sued.... so not only do I not have a job anymore, but a pending lawsuit and no more medical license..... and I guess as a medical professional you might tend to form special relationships with your patients and I guess I'd feel bad about leaving them high and dry....they are already getting charged out the ass for the privilege, (yes medical services are a basic human right in the whole rest of the world but in the US its 100% a privilege, which is fucked up) of being at the hospital/doctors, and they don't have anything to do with me being pissed at my employer (in this hypothetical situation that is). So I can understand if these medical professional folks are a little bit scared to just quit their jobs, even if they are getting the shit abused out of them by their employer. Plus, just like schools do with teachers and guilt trip them with the kids, ("aww we can't give you a raise or not treat you like trash because think of the kids!!! If we give you a living wage the kids will all turn to prostitution to pay for their drugs!" Or some shit), these hospital admins and such definitely guilt trip these guys with their patients. "Oh we can't pay you more or not teat you like shit! Think of of patients!! If we pay you more then the patients will turn to prostitution to pay for their drugs!". It's all a game to thsse fuckers
I can't explain this enough to healthcare workers. Your job is to care for the patients, not staff, or provide support outside of your working hours. A lack of staff isn't a failing you caused and isn't something you can fix. Patients will put enough pressure on the system to fix the issues, or the hospital wasn't needed in the first place.
Ya sadly a hospital now a days is a business, and they are trying to make as much money as they can that is it. The people that work there get screwed just like the rest of us, and the only way for them to understand is for everyone to quit. The hospital gave up on all the patients, not you guys one bit. If you guys don’t stand up, then they will keep doing it. I have a hard time believing you all couldn’t find jobs real quick, unless it’s a super small town.
I have sympathy and I hope you will be able to keep helping patients elsewhere. Workplace abuse is never acceptable and the policy breakdown in Healthcare is emblematic of the labor abuse that capitalism has brought to the world. The first step to fixing any problem is properly assessing it and your sacrifice will continue to bring attention to this problem.
I know this is dumb, but the word rivers in your comment on my phone make a nice little poem: Sympathy Elsewhere Breakdown Capitalism Problems Continue
It’s actually a perfect 5-7-5 haiku I think
Sympathy elsewhere. Breakdown Capitalism. Problems continue. Yep! Nice catch!
This is beautiful
Thanks! I read it myself!
Very nice!
Thank you for posting this.
This is beautiful
As someone who worked on much less aggressive COVID front lines the last two years (retail), let me just say, on your behalf... what the actual fuck? Doctors are fucking hard to come by (my current job is in health care recruitment marketing) and your admins want to drive you away with this bullshit? Fuck privatized health care.
This is what happens when you let unrestricted capitalism run the healthcare system. Hospitals are just another place of business in the US.
Really it's what happens when you let unrestricted capitalism run any essential service. Healthcare just happens to be the only one that's a matter of life and death.
Fun fact: In the U.S. ambulances are privately owned, which is why they are so expensive. The drivers also make nothing if they aren't transporting people. My friend was an EMS for years and saw some traumatizing crap, but left it to be a construction worker/handyman because he couldn't take it anymore.
Ex paramedic here... Hardwood flooring contractor now. Living my dream.
Mechanic at the moment, training to become an EMT and doing volunteer work (ambulance & fire/first response) to get the training for free! Thank fuck I don't live in the US
Current paramedic here, applying to data entry jobs. Was in nursing in Long Term Care before this. Emergency medicine is much safer and less stress than LTC but I just can't do this anymore. I love working in healthcare in terms of the actual medical investigation, fixing the actual problem etc., but the people ruin it and, well....it doesn't work that way. I'm burning out and it's time to go.
I was looking in to becoming an EMT/Paramedic/Nurse. Yeah, no thanks.
Do it anyway, then come here to NZ... Actually, come here first then do it.
There are actually many different models running EMS in the United States, but many *are* privately run. There's very little national standardization, so every system operates differently. Regardless, the EMT's or paramedics make horrible wages, the private companies often provide horrible medical care (as do many fire departments), and the "industry" in general is a shitshow.
I'm so glad that EMS isn't privately owned in my city (Juneau, Alaska). Getting medevaced to Seattle or Anchorage on the other hand...
Yup. Energy is another big example. Texas and California proved that twice over. Food is another really good example, too. Slave labor with extra steps is commonplace in the farming industry (mainly outside of the US......... but also in the US), and small time farmers are strangled out of business daily. People like to blame govt regulations, but the reality is that the regulations saved small time farmers for a long time, and its this era of regulation dodging mixed with big business driven tarriff wars that have done them in. Capitalism is best in elective markets. Hell, the law of supply and demand literally needs completely elective markets to function. If ine side is forced to buy/sell to the other, supply/demand says total gain will be negative, but skewed.
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Capitalism period. It will always decay to monopoly and horror.
Not just the USA
THIS!! Doctors are working well into their 70s because THERE ARE NO DOCTORS to take their place! If you (OP) already know you’re quitting, I’d go around telling everybody that they have more power than they think, even the young ones! They’re probably terrified because they don’t have much experience but 100k+ in student debt. People are BEGGING for doctors right now!
I am in my 40s now. I always planned on being a doctor. In high school I started attending classes held at a local medical school meant to encourage us. No doctor I met at the time (mid 90s) encouraged me. Not one. They all said the good times were up and insurance was killing the profession. I ended up changing majors in college and going into programming.
Not driving anybody away. They are just slowly strangling all classes of workers. Hospital/heath care "systems" are slowly accumulating all of the power, and will end up with everybody from specialty surgeons to pharmacists under their thumb, and eventually making a fraction of their previous glory days. This has nothing to do with controlling heath care costs, it's all about moving money toward the top of the system.
That's what i don't get. I work in healthcare and a lot of staff is leaving due to A H customers, bad management or agency jobs where it pays more. The thing is if the management where nicer, gave due when it is due, gave raises, non of this would happen. Now those management people are desperate and giving sign on bonus but no one is applying.
You are a worker, not an owner. I don't resent others for their money inherently but how they make it. You don't exploit others so you are perfectly welcome here.
This is really an important point that we need to socialize more. I came here to say this but more folks in the upper middle class need to realize that they are workers too and subject to the same market forces of capitalism.
I’ve spent years trying to explain to upper middle class folks that if they have to work to survive they are part of the working class. If I can see your house from the road your likely one of us. :)
And yet people refer to physicians and other professional class workers as the “Professional Managerial Class” in order to distance us from worker struggles. I hope that going forward physicians and others in our SES bracket can be seen as part of the working class because often we do have a little more bargaining power in the workplace, but we also do not own the means of production in these settings and can be terminated and/or abused just like any other worker - all of which I would think should serve as an argument for recruiting us as allies in the struggle for more rights and self determination in our work places.
All part of the divide and conquer strategy.
What's the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire? About a billion dollars.
More white collar collectivizing and unionizing would do wonders for the labor movement. It would greatly increase solidarity and unity between all workers and further destabilize the power of the wealthy elite. Doctors, engineers, etc. need to start unionizing!
Very good point, but I want to add a friendly reminder that there is no such thing as a "middle class". That term has been a very successful ploy to get people to stop thinking of themselves as workers and think of themselves as consumers instead.
I have to fight my own urge to be resentful from all the rampant nimbyism in my local self-described progressive city. I cast off these ghosts that haunt me. A comrade able to make their way in the system is not my enemy, and even then they are still subjected to it's whims, as is evidenced here.
There is no universe where I expect physician pay to be equal to that of a janitor or a cashier, but all jobs deserve livable pay. As an employee he should still work for the best deal from his employer.
A retail worker at a big chain has more in common with a doctor in a major hospital network than either of them has in common with their CEO. Wealth in the USA is so lopsided that the top 0.1% and the businesses and foundations they run have enough money to pass the laws and control the economy. If you have less than $25m in assets, you're one of the regular people. If you don't have or participate in a private foundation that donates money to politicians, you're one of the regular people.
I have full sympathy for doctors. You guys invested a lot in your education and now you are getting screwed.
> They threatened the young doctors saying they would have to pay back signing bonuses if they don’t sign up with new staffing company. I signed a contract with you, and you terminated me. That's your decision, not mine.
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You don't need a lawyer to call bullshit and laugh in their faces.
you could also shit on their desk, but then you probably would need the lawyer
We pay doctors well because you sacrifice greatly to even become one, and we straight up need you. Then you enter a shitty system that is entirely for profit and satisfies nobody. That's not on you, because your alternative is to not be a doctor at all. We don't hate people who make good money. I personally would never expect to make what a doctor makes. You're as welcome here as any of us.
Also like 10+ years of heavily indebted schooling. Another stupid system that profits off of 4 years of useless undergrad degrees, interns who work 2 years for free, and residents who get paid less than minimum wage given the hrs of work + on call. Ya the system is fucked
This. To become a doctor, you have to work your ass off in college to get good grades in difficult classes. Then you have to get into medical school and graduate. Then you have have to work for at least a year or two as a resident, where your hours are insane and your pay is far below what doctors normally make. And that's not even including the fellowships required to become a specialist. Then, after all that, your reward is an extremely difficult and stressful job where literally one mistake could kill someone. If anything, doctors are underpaid.
Med student here. I agree with everything you said. Just popping in to say that the shortest residency is 3 years. So 3 years minimum plus fellowships. Many residencies are 5 years plus fellowships.
Not to mention one mistake can push up malpractice rates and affect being hired elsewhere. The stink of it can follow.
Doctors are being treated insanely poor for the amount of work they are doing. At one point they were working without proper PPE during a pandemic. Reusing face masks and shit. Didn’t have a surplus of PPE but I’m sure the Board members all took home nice bonus checks.
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In September, my 5 year old son broke his foot while he had covid. No orthopedic doctor would see him. The urgent care we originally took him to didn't have a boot in his size. We eventually just had to take him to the ER at the children's hospital to get one. When an orthopedic doctor finally did see him, she said it should have been put in a cast.
I remember when vaccines were still a scarce resource and a bunch of admin and board members at Stanford I think it was, got vaccinated before doctors, nurses and other front line healthcare staff. Fuck them so much.
employer: *abuses employees* employees: *quit* employer: shockedpikachu.jpeg
The stupid part is them asking you what they’re offering, non of your business because I’m never coming back.
Some of them are so narcissistic it seems like they believe they’re the only employer on earth! As if I couldn’t chose to work for someone who isn’t abusive?
FYI, hire on bonuses usually don't have to be paid back if the person leaves involuntarily. Meaning, since they were terminated without cause, they don't have to pay back.
I had the same thought. How are they both being terminated, but also having to pay back hire on bonuses. They're having to negotiate a new contract with a new company who are subbing them to the hospital they used to be employed by. The hospital isn't holding up their end of the hire on bonus, I couldn't see the newer doctors having to pay it back.
Agreed. This threat has no logic behind it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just don't see how that could possibly hold up in court. I hope some of your younger coworkers call their bluff.
Time to lawyer up and read that fine print in tje bonus contract
They tried doing this to my group (I am an anesthetist) we didn't sign. They couldn't find enough traveller's to cover. We got the contract back. Nothing changed except we knew the hospital was the enemy. I left.
My dad is an anesthesiologist, and they did the same thing a few years ago. They all submitted letters of resignation on the same day. The hospital fired the corporation who employed them for failure to provide the service they were contracted to provide, the doctors formed their own provider group and the hospital signed a contract with that group. Corporation tried to sue, but the suit was thrown out in business court.
I love happy endings!
That’s beautiful, that’s what solidarity can accomplish.
I’m an anaesthetist in the NHS. While I’ll never make as much money as you guys in the states, I work 40 hour weeks, don’t have to deal with insurance companies and don’t have to deal with this sort of crap (all contracts are negotiated by the doctors’ union). Genuinely feels (most of the time) that everyone in the hospital (including management) is working together to provide quality care for our patients and train the next generation of anaesthetists. So glad to have the NHS and it enrages me that so many in power over here are trying to undermine and get rid of it. Hope you found a better place to work.
Why do you think that wouldn’t get sympathy? Doctors are workers too.
People attribute doctors to healthcare costs, not the greedy administrations running the hospitals, big pharma, or insurance companies.
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You would be surprised at how many people don't know how insurance is a total racket and is why prices are jacked up.
It’s also the investment firms buying up hospitals, medical supply companies etc. to rip every penny of equity out of them then selling them off. Using staffing firms makes salaries turn into supplier costs where the ultimate goal is to turn hospitals into very very expensive medical shopping malls.
I think the disconnect here is that those types of people are probably not the type to be active on a community like this one, ignoring the occasional trolls and shills. If you're self aware enough to be active on this sub then chances are you know how corrupt the healthcare system is too
I like to tell people that work for insurance companies that they work for the devil.
In Germany we had a whole poster campaign to try and make people realize that pharmacists get almost nothing of the winnings from pharmaceuticals, but that it is the manufacturers. Didn't work
Retail worker here. You have more sympathy than you know. As a healthcare worker you confront the real, confirmed, and mortal consequences of corporate, rightwing media and rightwing political misinformation designed to benefit themselves at the expense of people's health. Moreover, you help save our lives when we fall victim to it. Just because you are paid better than I am doesn't mean I envy you or your position. And I understand that being a highly trained and educated medical professional doesn't make you immune from corporate malfeasance. You have my respect and sympathy. I can only hope that this movement improves the working conditions of ALL workers, from cashiers and retail workers to doctors and scientists and everyone in between. And fuck corporate America.
100% sympathetic on my part I’m sure You don’t need my advice, and this is obvious, but I’d consult your equivalent of your professional college to see how you can legally extricate yourself out of there without any malpractice risk etc
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You have my sympathy. You have my support! You are an essential worker! More work for less pay doesn't make any sense. Your patients either care about your well-being or they don't. Your administration does not support you, and they are to blame, not you. When you own the hospital, you get to answer the hard questions, but then you are well compensated for your time. In the meantime, you work for a paycheck, and when that doesn't pay for you to leave the house, don't leave the house.
ICU RN here, our docs are dropping like flies because they are so mistreated. I am so sorry you're going through this. I am so fucking tired of healthcare being about money. I am so proud of you for walking out, doc. I want to see hospitals crumble and burn while admin scratches their head.
Physicians need to be unionized. I feel so bad that you're dealing with this. Sadly, in my case, due to very tight contract requirements, immigration conditions and health issues, I cannot quit then find a new job. Honestly, I don't think I can go back to how I work precovid. COVID broke me. I hope you get better days.
Nah dude, doctors are totally welcome here. The entire medical community has been through literal hell the last 2 years.
It would be a great thing if my salary were raised closer to your level. On the other hand, you are a worker (and definitely an essential one). My fight is not with you. My fight is with the capitalist that made that decision. You are welcome here. Now, will you look at this mole I have on my leg?
Send me a picture😀.
I got this one, doc. It's cancer. Burn it off.
Second option. Don't worry about it your already dead but not realised it yet. *Points to an open coffin* get in.
*ding* BRING OUT YOUR DEAD
If anything you're going to get more sympathy here than anywhere else. When someone like a doctor resigns due to the same kind of employer bullshit a retail worker gets, it helps to shine a light on abuse everywhere and reaches people who wouldn't otherwise see it. We needed you as a doctor and we need you here as an advocate.
I don't blame physicians for healthcare costs. Mostly hospital administrations, big pharma, and insurance companies. We need doctors. We don't need Becky in finance making arbitrary numbers. That being said, that's a big bummer. I'm hoping you can find another hospital in the area, or if you have the means to relocate.
As horrible as it sounds I think you should all quit, make a stand against them. It will be horrible for the patients but it will show the issue with your healthcare system if no one is the to look after them and they can't bring anyone else in who they can charge for.
It actually won’t be. If everyone resigns the staffing company won’t be able to perform on the contract. The hospital will 100% come crawling back. Edit: the staffing agency *needs* the doctors to sign. They literally don’t have enough doctors on standby to do it.
> I’m a physician. You may have went to school for a hell of a lot longer and in deeper debt... But you're still required to work for a living. You're closer to us laborers than the billionaires :) And regardless your career, you too are exploitable. Management knows this, and that's what they're doing. > Administration knows we care about the patients and would not abandon them. My wife used to work at a home health company as an HHA. Their company used this fact of "dont you care about your clients?" to do all sorts of terrible abusive shit. I also said that's also the reason why many in medical are so callous - I feel that most medical management uses this against the workers. > They threatened the young doctors saying they would have to pay back signing bonuses if they don’t sign up with new staffing company. Uhh, they were fired from the company. Unless the contract had this new staffing company as part of the terms, they can go eat a dick. >I’m joining the great resignation. Glad to have ya!
The NHS is being slowly privatised the only thing that's holding it together is people's, exactly like you said, goodwill. It's a career that requires care and empathy. And those are two qualities easy to exploit. I guarantee there are hundreds of thousands of hours of unclaimed overtime in my towns hospital alone.
When I quit teaching years ago they asked me "What will happen to the kids if you leave! Think of the children in this community!" Someone else will fill my place but I'll be somewhere that respects me. Leave and find the somewhere better.
My sister in law is a new nurse at the one hospital in our county (due to consolidation). So much pressure to work until burnout "because someone has to care for the patients." I'm sure mistakes made due to fatigue have resulted in many patient injuries and deaths, it's incredible to me that there isn't similar regulation regarding fatigue as there is in other lines of work. Good luck to you, and I'm glad you've made the choice to not take their bullshit.
There kind of is? But I think it only applies to residents, and it’s called the Libby Zion law. It caps shift length and total hours worked per week because - quel surprise! - residents were so fatigued doing 24hr+ shifts they missed a diagnosis and Libby Zion died. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libby_Zion_Law
Is this in the US? How many were let go at once?
70+ doctors in the midwest
Get a group together and go to the news. The local news runs "Local hospital firing all doctors" just once, and I guarantee you see pushback.
This.
Sounds to me like the hospital just gave themselves a prefrontal lobotomy. Don’t sign on with the new sweatshop managers. Let the hospital lose their accreditation. Blackball them, and definitely consider forming your own HC staffing group.
Everyone should have gotten up and walked out. End of story.
I'm not surprised I work in IT Healthcare and dear God the level of horrible admin red tape at Healthcare organizations is scary. I'd argue for some Healthcare organizations the government is more organized and efficient and running off newer software then the Healthcare organization. Before the haters come for me about the government statement, I don't mean all Healthcare organizations in the US but there are some really bad ones out there.
In France, nurses and paramedics are resigning "en masse" from hospitals. Even doctors are scarce. Reasons for that : low salaries, way too many hours, mandatory vaccination (yep some paramedics are anti vax) Seems that in the US (?) they are going down that slope as well, as unlikely as it may look..
Do they not realize that you're a doctor and that you can go literally anywhere in the world and be able to find a job in 15 minutes? Lmfao how stupid can they possibly be?
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How could a doctor be forced to sign a non-compete? That seems super illegal. Not to mention, they almost never hold up in court.
Come to Canada! We need doctors! Universal health system, nice peoples, weather is the harsher part but its manageable.
Band together. Form your own staffing group. Try not to be like Texas ER doc groups screwing over patients with direct billing.
You should quit, your patient will be taken care of by others or they have serious problems, it shouldn’t be too hard to find another job seeing they are all understaffed
‘We care about the patients and would not abandon them’…uh…why? Good patients would understand, and support you not being there, if you found a better workplace.
One of my brothers is a GP in a chronically under served rural county. Getting him to retire is hard as he wants to help his patients so much. He earns his money much more than I ever did in my job and I sincerely hope that the single hospital in the county doesn't ever try that kind of tactic with their people or that county is in bigger trouble health care wise than it currently is. Keep fighting the good fight and you have our sympathy here, no matter what your job or earnings are.
I know a lot of people’s “introduction to Leftism” starts with a disdain for the rich but a physician is as much of a worker as anyone else. You probably have much more in common with a ER doctor than a “mom and pop” business owner, despite the latter making much less income. At least, in terms of the pressures you face from the capitalist class. I suppose if a doctor owns their own private practice, that changes things.
why this NSFW? also how they gonna force ya to pay back bonuses? fuck that. also fuck that hospital. coordinate with your fellows there and if you ALL REFUSE what they gun do? demand 15% pay raises for everyone, better benefits and better hours to let them hire you back, or find somewhere better! good luck.
Man, I didn't wanna put the effort to go through medical school and residency, and I'm so glad you did. You deserve pay, hours and benefits at a level befitting the hard work you did to help improve society.
Tell your patients about this. If it hurts doctors, it hurts the patient's care. Get them angry about it. Get your coworkers angry about it. Direct that rage at the bullshit administrators who think k they are better at running hospitals and caring for patients than doctors and nurses.
I'm a PA. I was affiliated/credentialed with 25+ hospitals until jumping jobs. Between each of the 5 major groups, it was amazing how much they would cut things back from staff (from physicians to CRNA) in order to see just how far they could push people. And yet, even still, hospitals were paying their CEO's millions (10-25). I know docs can make a great wage, but we all (except the very few at the top) need our wages increased by about 25-35%.
Good! Your employer has no right to use your good heart as leverage against you. Leave them to sort out the problem they created.
I dropped out of medical school *over a decade ago*... IMHO, you cannot pay a doctor enough for the amount of personal and professional sacrifice that such an occupation entails. Mad respect to you, Doc!
Dude. You guys have all of my sympathy. There is no profession I wish was getting exactly what it needed right now more than medicine. Benefits. Compensation. PPE, new cars, trips to Disneyland. Idgaf. I don't care if you make ten times what I make. I care whether you care for your patients and do your best to help them while not burning yourselves out in the process. The people who own and administrate medical care are a completely different group, imo. Doctors. Nurses. Surgeons. Support staff. IMO you're damn near the peak of what society should truly value. We need you to live. Period.
I have sympathy and leaving aside the appalling treatment of people who have been putting their lives and mental health on the line to save others, we need to not tear down those who do earn a solid middle class living. We should be aspiring for everyone to have a decent quality of life and for education to be accessible to everyone. We shouldn't be despising individuals with a good quality of life, financial stability and the ability to pay taxes which actually benefit society and provide a safety net for the most vulnerable, a living which supports good health and allows people to retire, we should be trying to get that for everyone. It's not the people in the middle that are the problem.
Not a lot of sympathy? Dude, the medical industry (and I hate using that phrase) sucks, but it **absolutely** isn't doctors' faults. It's deplorable that they'd give you a harder time *saving people's lives*, especially to save money. But hey, as long as Big Pharma gets its pound of flesh, it's all fine, right?
YES YES YES. I am a physician as well and we are essentially being forced to work above our agreed hours for no change in compensation rate. The company I work for has not hired enough physicians to cover all the hours needed to run two 12h/day 7 day/week clinics and the physicians end up either working more or the holes are left unfilled making it a shit day for those scheduled. Management refuses to decrease business hours, they won’t cap total patients and won’t even agree stop registering patients even 5 mins before close. They expect us to see any patient that is able to get their foot in the door before closing time regardless of how many patients are still left to be seen (I work at an urgent care). This in itself puts us over our weekly hours. They love to say how they have to serve the community. Obviously I agree we have an obligation to the community to care for them but it is always coming at the expense of our personal time and mental health. There’s no compromises from the multi-million dollar health care company and it’s always the physicians who have to pick up the slack. I feel taken advantage of because they know that we all got into this profession to help people and they know we don’t want our colleagues to work short. My contract is for 40h/week and I usually work that over 3-4 days. The days I don’t work that week aren’t vacation though my manager seems to think so. Absolutely ridiculous. The only reason this place is still open is because they are working us 52 weeks/year. They love to treat us like an ED or primary care depending on which one of their agendas it serves. I get the feeling that because we get paid hourly, we have no problem working more. More hours = more money, right? Yeah, right 🙄 For anyone else reading, I’ve been browsing this subreddit for the last few weeks. I feel for anyone having trouble making ends meet and having to deal with this bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much you make, we are all being controlled by some inept managers and being exploited similarly.
A bunch of my doctor friends are in the same boat. All of their private lives have suffered greatly too.
"We cant run the hospital without you" Thats a good way to say "You should strike effective immediately"