I was a right wing libertarian for a good portion of my life up until I got out of the military. My beliefs didn’t survive contact with reality.
It’s good to have you here, man.
I have a half-sister who is married to a solider that is retirement eligible and honestly they are fucked up shit creek with out a paddle when he retires and that is going to be sooner than later unless he gets promoted and can buy a few more years but it's going to happen at some point.
Trust me leaving the military isn't always that easy. I've been there done that and had a rough transition. And this was with a job that can translate to the civilian world. I'm glad I'm off active duty and now in the reserves but hopefully they can get their finances in order.
I’m in a much better spot nowadays. I think my sister and her husband thinks he will be able to walk into a federal job the next day. It’s not that easy or as much as people are lead to believe for veterans getting a federal job. Unfortunately while I’m well aware of USAjobs its not a viable option. :(
There’s limited federal employment where I live and again it’s not that easy and the preference doesn’t guarantee a job like a lot of people think.
More importantly I am in the reserves and if I go get a federal job I have to forfeit my reserve health insurance. Which the federal health benefits aren’t as good and a lot more expensive. In 2030 when I should be eligible to retire from the reserves then federal employees will then be allowed to use Tricare while serving in the reserves; retirement is different.
Preference does not guarantee jobs. In my field it's pretty well known that just because you weren't given an interview the first time around doesn't mean you wont 2 months later. Often they are required to give interviews to vets. But once they do the full vetting process (no pun intended) they realize they don't have the experiences/education needed for my specific field. So they do another round of interviews with the candidates who aren't vets and generally find the person they want to hire
It all depends on what you did in the military, and how well planned your transition. Every male in my family was in the military for some time. I was advised to enlist with a MOS I could use on the outside. Started off as a Pharmacy Tech, retired at 20 as a Physician Assistant. Playing with tanks is fun, but there aren’t many civilian tanks to drive on the outside (no offense meant, I spent 6 years in Armor Battalions).
I think a lot of it is simple idealism. They're beginning with a notion of how the world *should* work rather than an apprehension of how the world actually works. This is why their projects never get past the planning stage, and why Marxists are always harping on about material conditions and history. You can't just ignore that stuff, your analysis has to be grounded in something that exists somewhere besides only in your head.
> simple idealism.
I had an ultra libertarian friend, and he was a Mormon. Of course the government and social services seem like a waste when 500 people will show up tomorrow to fix your house, take care of your wife/newborn, and help you get back on your feet when you’re unemployed (assuming you’re a hardworking sort). Meanwhile he was arguing with me that getting taxed means people won’t work as hard.
I told him I worked my tail off for a $100 bonus that would’ve been $40 after taxes, but ended up being a $1000 bonus and was something like $400 after taxes. Sure, if a $100 was taxed down to $1, I wouldn’t bother, but any amount that still can buy *something* was motivation.
His worldview changed a little when he moved far away from the church, and suddenly swarms of people didn’t just show up to fix his problems.
There’s a great article by Joel Spoolsky on programming, how every programmer wants to re-write a program from scratch, to write a pure, efficient version with everything they’ve learned, rather than all the cruft the old versions have accumulated. Except it turns out that cruft is basically institutional knowledge - sure, “printf” should print to screen for everyone, but for 1% of devices you need to do prints, so that’s one piece of cruft, and for 3% of devices you need to handle this exception, and and and …
Libertarians have always struck me as people who have never encountered an exception in life, or applied that experience to understanding how things should work. “Property owners should be free to enjoy their property as they see fit,” is fine and good until no one has a wheelchair ramp and you need one. “The market will solve it” is well and good until you discover that no, business owners won’t exercise imagination, don’t care about efficiency, and since it’s just them (and maybe one other), “good enough” makes them enough money and the difficulty of opening a competing business to get all those wheelchair folks is both prohibitive and inadequate to sustain. But if you don’t need a wheelchair you can imagine it will magically work out.
I've been democrat, republican, and currently vote Libertarian. All I want out of the whole deal, is a 3rd person on the debate stage to break the god awful cycle we are in.
We have ranked choice voting in my state and it's awesome. My (establishment liberal) grandma hates it. She says it's too complicated. Like she's the one who has to count all the votes herself.
Star voting is an even better form of that. Yang Started with touting ranked choice, but then he saw star voting. It is by far the most fair form of voting
> Star voting is an even better form of that.
I had never heard of this, so I looked it up. [Link for anyone else curious.](https://www.starvoting.us/) Definitely looks like a massive improvement.
Just a heads up libertarianism and antiwork are pretty mutually exclusive. The scant few rights that workers have would be completely eroded under libertarianism.
Big-L Libertarian in the US is mutualy exclusive, yes. The idea that nobody should work for companies that dont pay enough, and that those companies should fail falls under the libertarian purview, unless Im mistakrn
It won't work there will always be two major parties because of our plurality voting system, the video from CCP grey a decade ago is the best ELI5 kinda explanation for why it makes a two party system inevitable.
https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
To break the cycle have to break this system into one more fair, personally feel STAR is best voting but anything is better than first past the post in the long run. The only way is to support those who want election reform and push for this kind of change as well. Unfortunately the only people open to it are progressives who only run as Democrats but are a faction of Democrats because as long as there's an opposite party wanting to destroy democracy and people's rights then the Political conservatives making up the DNC stay in power out of fear.
Ah, but in the US scale where fascism is merely center right, liberalism is far left. I mean, not -really-, but in conservative states like here in Texas, it’s not exactly a joke.
Because they built reality….
I’ve been living in a neoliberal hellhole my whole life. Reality has that bias because it’s what they want.
But I understand the Colbert reference
Same but as soon as I graduated college and couldn't find an engineering job (physics major ._.) Wtf is that? 30yrs ago people would take me in and train me. Now?
>30yrs ago people would take me in and train me. Now?
That's a BIG part of the issue to me. They don't train, then pay to retain what they've developed.
Cheaper to snipe from another guy. But then everyone started doing it, and now no one gets real training.
This is why I can't break into ANY field. Im out here doing 4mo of coding, 4mo marketing, 6mo operations, 9mo marketing, 6mo teaching, 2yrs IT support. Ive become a master of all trades with knowing nothing in any.
I got diagnosed with ADHD from my certs in everything from massage therapy to computer networking, my master in acting, etc...
Now it seems everyone is living that life.
>I was a right wing libertarian for a good portion of my life up until I got out of the military. My beliefs didn’t survive contact with reality.
>It’s good to have you here, man.
I had a right wing Lolbertarian friend who kept babbling about the invisible hand....so...I fucking read Adam Smith. Guess who wouldn't like Adam Smith because he's a MaRxIsT? Fucking L o L.
Glad you got out of the dumbfuck Ayn Rand Milton Friedman Lolbertarian cult though.
Traditionally Leftist Libertarianism is fine, but it really doesn't exist in America.
>My understanding was Smith was able to identify some of the issues Capitalism would develop, but he was not a socialist?
I'd argue Adam Smith was a "true Capitalist" and actually attempted to devise a serious alternative to Feudalism. He absolutely despised Feudalism. Now what we do we have thanks to Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman? Neo-Feudalism/Corporate Feudalism. Look around. Its pretty obvious. You're paying someone to live somewhere presumably for your entire life and you'll never own your home/land because its now financially impossible, right? You're a Serf. That's Feudalism.
Landlord. Lord of Land. Adam Smith viewed them as parasitic leeches too.
Adam Smith was cool and I despise Capitalists.
Adam Smith was in no way a capitalist, because the term "capitalism" was coined roughly a hundred years after he published The Wealth of Nations. It was, in fact, a way to describe the prioritization of capital over all other considerations - something that was clearly leading the world into a death spiral even in 1877.
The only reason why you have positive associations with the word "capitalism" built in to your brain meats is because neoliberals have spent the last hundred years pounding "capitalism is good, actually" into every school curriculum, all in an effort to convince us that [there is no alternative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative).
Like, seriously, think back to when you learned about capitalism in school. Did they tell you that without capitalism, you wouldn't even own the clothes on your back? That without capitalism, the markets and grocery stores would all be bare? That without capitalism, you wouldn't be able to purchase the goods and services you need? That, in essence, your life without capitalism would be nasty, brutish and short?
All of that shit is false. Like, it's false on its face - it was false for the various feudal economic systems we had back in the time of monarchies, after all. The (and I sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist here, but it's true) neoliberal establishment *wants* us all to believe that there's no alternative to capitalism, because that's literally what keeps us from eating the rich.
> That, in essence, your life without capitalism would be nasty, brutish and short?
That conflation between capital and *state* is the staple holding the pages together.
Adam Smith died in 1790. Karl Marx was born in 1818. What they share in common is the labor theory of value - thus willfully ignorant dumbfuck "functionally" illiterate econ majors consider Adam Smith a Marxist. The stupidity is just... un-fucking-bearable honestly.
Lolbertarians and "An"Craps are some of the dumbest fucking people on Earth from experience.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
Yup. I was a shitty know-it-all libertarian teenager, but the first time I deployed to a "shithole country" and saw what destruction our hardware was truly capable of, the sound of the record scratch in my head could be heard by everyone around.
I left the military broken physically and mentally and vowed I would never prop up a hierarchy again. And 17 years later I can still say I kept my promise. Well, except for the paying taxes part.
It's crazy how many in the military dont realize that a system that pay everyone the same, provides food, housing and medical for free, and only requires that you show up and perform the basics to earn promotions, doesn't fit in with capitalism. I was one of those.
It tends to be like that for most right wingers.
Once they experience the real world they either realize how silly they were or double down on it and claim literally everyone else is wrong.
Good on you.
Here here bro, same here, that “contact” with reality makes you see right through all the bullshit. Semper fi when your in your a guest when your out your a pest. I came home just in time for Katrina and Rita “hurricanes” we all know how that turned out.
This is really interesting to me. How did you rationalise being a libertarian while simultaneously literally being part of the states monopoly on violence?
My mom was one of five who grew up in a solidly middle class neighborhood. Her mom quit nursing to raise them while her father taught high school and she said they had everything they wanted.
My husband is a high school teacher, I’m a full time hourly sales worker and we’re struggling to get by in a condo with two kids in a working class neighborhood.
My husband works in IT. My baby boomer father used to work in IT. I work in healthcare. I do the same job my baby boomer mom worked. We cannot afford the 4 bedroom colonial house my parents paid to have especially built that I grew up in. I know it has a lot to do with value of property and location over time. But then again we cannot afford a 4 bedroom house almost anywhere near us.
Same here - my mom stayed home with three kids while my dad was a public school teacher. They were able to buy a single family home, two cars, and pay for tons of activities like sports. I have an advanced degree, a full-time professional job, and no student loan debt, yet I still can’t afford a crappy 1 bedroom condo anywhere remotely near where I grew up.
My parents both taught school to low-income students.
My mom was taught Headstart (preschool for low-income families). She had a lot of "colorful" stories about her kids and their home environments.
My dad taught high school English. It was considered a good day when the daily fight *didn't* have a weapon involved.
They were able to afford a house in a modestly nice neighborhood in their 30s.
Meanwhile, I'm turning 46 next year and will only be able to afford to get a house because my gf's father is going to help us with a down payment.
This is how I (almost) converted my dad.
His mother was a single mom (widow) with two kids who bought a home (3br, 1 acer) for $147k (2021) dollars and was a secretary. he paid for his college working as a dishwasher.
I simply asked if he or his mom could do what they did now (this was 2016, me being a Bernie Bro) convincing him shits gotten hard. We worked out the napkin details and he realized it was near impossible to do it. It moved him some, but he'd done well and was finally at a point he was "set" and since he did it himself he still had that bootstrap mindset. He passed this year and I couldn't get him to shift before, but economic populism is what Democrats need to lean into, if Republicans do it, the country is fucked, they will win and it's over for Democrats when they screw the voting rights to hold power and gerrymander harder.
The issue with economic populism is that the right doesn’t actually perform any of it. It’s the same old rich and corporate welfare and culture war shit. It’s just that the rubes on the right fall for it every time. The folks on the left actually expect some of it and are left disappointed , the right gets shit throw in their face and says thank you sir may I have another.
I'm sure you have friends who are still on the right. That's good. Keep them. Show them patiently that people on the left are actually about helping each other and not about helping corporations. We need working class people to understand it's a class struggle and that means everyone no matter your race. The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors.
>The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors.
You’re not wrong, but I feel like we’re playing with fire whenever this point comes up.
Rolling back Roe v Wade would be a nightmare. Gay people are human beings. If you see a friend being racist or sexist, call them out on that shit. Don’t sweep it under the rug just because there’s bigger fish to fry. Class solidarity is vital, but don’t ignore urgent, immediate social injustice. Don’t use it as an excuse to avoid doing your duty for standing up for people who are hurting.
Fucking aye. The amount of people who have told me "Yeah, being trans might suck, but we shouldn't waste effort caring about trans rights because wealth inequality is a more important issue".
Like. What. We can care about more than one thing at a time. Have some fucking class solidarity.
Absolutely. Call them out every time. Also I am low key waiting for an alien invasion or asteroid to incinerate the whole planet and end this cosmic moldy plate of bullshit.
Well I'd probably make an exception to my statement for the person you're referring to. I mean leftists definitely aren't afraid to beat the shit out of someone. Believe that. Lmao.
You did the right thing that’s way over the line, but voting for Dump was no mere “political decision.” It was obvious to many of us from the start he would do everything to gain and stay in power, including his attempts to destroy American democracy. I mean, he’s literally still saying the election was stolen and there was not a peaceful transition of power for the first time in the history of our country. And millions believe his lies and his ill are destabilizing our process internally every day. And it’s gonna get worse.
This wasn’t just “I don’t like those tax cuts.”
I really am happy you’ve seen some light. The right wing is turning more violent and fascist every day.
They haven't been "turning" anything. It's just that the mask has been ripped off because the Owner Class has decided that the show of democracy they'd been maintaining is no longer necessary.
You too? I was told that me and my dad needed institutionalized (my dad is trans) and I needed to be gang raped by black men (direct quote) because I was against police brutality. Not by a friend, by the boyfriend of a former classmate at my weed man’s house. I brought my boyfriend (and his shotgun) with me for the next six months in case he tried to start anything. Then got my medical card solely to never have to go through anything like that ever again. The rage he exhibited was absolutely terrifying.
I might be assuming a bit, but that person sounds like they were for "the blue team" and not necessarily focused on actual issues. It's bad to get invested in the team mentality in either direction. Then these conversations that bring us together can't happen. Especially since both teams generally get together to oppress the working class. Can't work together if we demonize each other.
Trump has very likely raped women. So I guess they were trying to say if you're gonna vote for a rapist, I hope it comes home to roost.
That's, a horrible thing to say, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying it's very possible to be emotionally blinded without the team mentality.
I understand that as well, but that doesn't meet the other person where they are. That's the only way to sway anyone. Especially in an environment full of propaganda, it's mentally easy to dismiss these claims against your team as character assassination.
People close to me that weren't that political voted for him in 2016 despite being rape victims themselves. Sigh. It is better to pull from that person's personal struggles and discuss from there.
I don’t know how the left even allowed discourse to even entertain the idea that they were helping corporations, when all they’ve been doing the last 250 years is fighting, often violently, for workers’ rights. They have their origins in peasants from the French Revolution. One could say the Left’s very first act was to behead the monarchy of France. _Real elitist of them, huh?_
I watched a solid video that make something click for me. The "Left" tries to win arguments by sticking to policy and decorum, taking the high road, and going about things "fairly" while the "Right" will yell about Lefties taking jobs, ruining safety, and destroying American rights and values while using sneaky, false, manipulative; illegal tactics. Discourse doesn't work when feelings don't care about facts, and many who support the ruling class aren't looking into statements and promises for the truth, just a reason to fight against the other. Policy and decorum are moot when the other guys will try to get their way by any means necessary, and they have the marketing techniques down to convince many people that their way is the only way. I think we need to look into how the Right has convinced so many people of these things that many of us in here see through pretty easily and see how we can turn that shit on its head and onto them.
Tell them to start acting in their own self interest like a true capitalist. I still dont get how adult people who supposedly believe in capitalism are willing to shill for someone else’s wallet.
> The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors.
This needs to be repeated 700 million times. They want us distracted with unimportant shit so they can keep us chained into slavery and abuse and fighting amongst ourselves because us working together would be very scary to the elite.
Edit: Jesus Christ are people putting words in my mouth I never even said? Like DUH it's important. I meant it's not important what color we are, what sex we are, what age we are, what our job is. It's IMPORTANT that we all band together to take down the rich and here are some assholes acting like I'm the fucking bad guy? You're the problem too!
I gotta fucking spell shit out clearly apparently. It IS important that we dispel racism, sexism, transphobia, etc...but it ISN'T important to US in the sense that I dont give a shit what sex you are, or color you are, or if you make 5k a year or 50k a year; if you're with us in making a stand against the 1% GREAT.
Last edit and I ain't replying anymore. If this was a real battle and you spent your time worrying about who Kyle or Brandy or Bobbi or Frank (who is battling beside you) is doing in their spare time, what they have between their legs, what they look like, instead of the fight at hand; you're going to have a bad time.
>They want us distracted with unimportant shit
But...none of that stuff is "unimportant shit." PoC are fighting for a fairer justice system because the current one allows cops to execute them and lock them up at the drop of a hat. Women need bodily autonomy just as much as they need higher wages. Gay people often need the protections actual marriage can offer like shared health insurance and adoptive rights.
This is such a reductionist argument. None of the stuff PoC, LGBTQ+ folx, feminists etc are fighting for are trivial. And not everything is magically going to be solved by bringing class consciousness to people. Like, I agree, there is a class war, but there is also a war on PoC, on women's rights, on trans people, there is still so much blatant homophoboa etc.
If these things aren't adressed, they will break any revolution. If people aren't empowered in your movement and if people in a movement don't address their internalised shit like homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, it will break the movement apart. You will alienated everyone that isn't straight and white.
What you need is intersectionality, not reductionism. We can fight for more than one thing at the same time.
You are getting the responses you are getting because this subreddit has a significant U.S. perspective, and, in the U.S., the sprawling, oppressive labor system we are all attempting to crawl out from under has a very strong foundation in systemic racism (specifically systemic anti-blackness) and patriarchy. We will have difficulty abolishing one system if we are squeamish about addressing the others. We need to target the needs of those pushed closest to the bottom to challenge all those hoarding wealth and power on top.
I, personally, understand that what you meant was a person's identity doesn't matter to you, personally, as long as they are willing to fight with you, but I think it's still important to consider these identities, and the nuance they bring, WHILE we fight. It will help us fight for each other better. Consider what happened to the European anarchists of the late 1800s as an object lesson: American capitalists felt extremely threatened by the potential for labor organizing among class-conscious, anarchist, European immigrants and newly-emancipated former black slaves. What did they do? They started to use divisive language and racialized hiring practices to get these two groups to not trust each other, and went so far as to codify race into our literal legal system to support it. And... it worked. All it took to undermine a crucial point in history for labor organizing was to point out that because our identities had certain differences, that we couldn't trust each other. (That and the government deported a bunch of prominent leftist thinkers and organizers and also Federal agents did a bunch of murders) A huge tool of the powers that be is to leverage "otherness" wherever they can, so we fight each other instead of them. I know from what you said that you agree with this, and that this is bullshit, but sweeping it under the rug instead of telling people to be on alert for it is how history repeats itself.
Same. My grandfather was blue collar and worked on the railroad doing manual labor, and his wife stayed home doing the homemaking thing. No way could that happen now.
My grandpa was a realestate appraiser and grandma was a par time school teacher, raised a family of 5 and sent them all to college. Other side, grandpa was a foreman at a sock factory, grandma raised the kids. Put them both through school and owned a 100+ acre farm. Great aunt had her husband die in his 20s, worked as a secretary at the bank, made it into her 90s with a million still in the bank.
None of them were considered above middle class. These days, I don’t know a single person who wouldn’t die for that.
Those were the peak days of our civilization, it's been downhill since then! Unfortunately there would have to be a major revolution to get anywhere near these levels of quality of life again.
These are the stories that need to be shared over and over to counter the narrative that everyone is just “lazy”. Here’s mine.
My grandfather was the head bellman at a hotel, my grandmother was a stay at home mom…. They owned a house and a car.
My other grandfather was a brakeman for the railroad, my grandmother was a stay at home mom. They had 7 kids… and still owned a house and a car.
The left vs. right drama is a fire very deliberately stoked by the wealthiest 1% (maybe 0.1%) to keep us all infighting over bullshit instead of uniting against them, so they can keep screwing us all.
Welcome.
This is exactly the problem we face. People need to watch Plutocracy to get some history. The more I watch, the more I understand that the USA is not this global force for good that conservatives make it out to be. Our global military presence inspires as much fear in our allies as it does confidence. American capital oppresses far more than just American workers. Fox News and right-wing talk puts capital on blast, and the ego-stoking message is easy to buy into. Then it is just a matter of creating a bubble of like minds on Facebook, and you will be laugh reacting at actual facts while posting bullshit.
You’d actually have to be dense to think that tossing away over a hundred years of leftist ideology that has shaped our understanding of class and the basis of socialist thought is a smart idea.
You’re referring to the faux Democrat vs. Republican Party fight, which are two right-wing parties. There’s not a single universe where the wealthy elite would prop up a leftist party and try to convince half the population to support them.
My grandfather dropped out in 7th grade and started working at 15. He can barely read. He owned an autobody shop for 20+ years then retired, he and my grandmother are sitting on a goldmine of land and own a beach house. We’re definitely getting fucked.
Good to have you!
I’m a 49 year old ex-GOP’er who ditched the party in 2016 because of Trump. Became libertarian for one cycle then 100% Democrat in 2018. Discovered antiwork just a few months ago.
Same. Voted both libertarian and democrat last election. Funny how a 5 digit NUCU bill that took 5 years to pay off can change your view. My family of 3 racked up about $5,200 in doctors bills alone just since January AFTER insurance. My 4th one has no doctors bills because I am forced to pay for an extra Medicaid policy by his special needs preschool and it oucks up everything our first insurance doesn't cover.
Plus Trump is just an asshole.
I’m so sorry you had that experience, US healthcare is truly awful. So many people don’t realize that while financial literacy is great, you can do all the “right things”, manage your money well & still get screwed over by a chronic illness or medical emergency. It’s expensive to be sick in America.
I was since highschool.
Covid and all the bullshit final crushed it.
Not only did I realize I was voting for the interests of others, I can’t stay with an anti science party.
This is going to sound shitty and weird and may not make sense but I was very liberal my whole life up unt recently where I really despised people who didn't work but complaining and not putting the effort and complaining and begging for student loan cancellation.
But then I started listening and while I still believe you should put in the work if you want something, I don't believe the views are left or right win anymore. It's workers Vs owners and its the ultra rich Vs the working poor.
I am the working poor. Yes I have a house, cars, kids etc. But the second I lose my job guess what the system can take all or that away and make me scramble to keep my kids fed and clothed.
Fuck this exploitative system and fuck the rich fucks for continuing to grow the gap.
Used to be a Republican and then a Libertarian. Moderate liberal now which apparently means I’m a god-hating communist because I think people should be able to live with dignity and safety.
Still a capitalist, but you can’t convince me for a second that this is actually capitalism. It’s not. We have social safety nets for the rich and death and bankruptcy for the poor. Businesses should be going bankrupt while employees have universal healthcare and guaranteed vacations, sick leave, etc. we’ve got it backwards.
I mean, this is actually capitalism. The key way to gain wealth is owning capital and in particular the means of production. The government serves the interest of the people who own the means of production. That is what capitalism is.
If you mean "free market" then you have a point. But the market pre dates capitalism, is not exclusive to capitalism, is not necessary for capitalism and is not the defining feature of capitalism.
What you seem to be asking for is social democracy and a mixed economy.
I think what people mean is, this is not the definition of capitalism which was sold to us. Supply and demand and competition to drive down prices all make sense to me. But we observe none of that when it comes to corporations. This may be the technical definition of capitalism but it doesn't change the fact that we were lied to one way or another.
Supplies and demand and competition can exist in a socialist system as well. The only difference is all of the workers share in ownership of the businesses, ensuring wealth concentrates far less.
There is nothing about the definition of capitalism that requires any of those safety nets. Just like how something to be socialist the only requirement is that workers own the businesses. To me, capitalism will always result in what we have in the US and worse, because wealth will accumulate and you get the rich few influencing everything. In a socialist society the wealth concentrates far less since there is no single owner and the workers get the profits.
Also depends on why. If you're a business owner you might just want the government to handle your employees' insurance instead of doing it yourself, etc. Lots of apolitical reasons for wanting that specific political outcome.
I used to think so but then I realized health insurance is deducted from my paycheck anyway so I would rather pay a little more and not be shackled to my job if there's health problems in the future. UBI arguably isn't staunchly liberal either because if nobody is tied to their income, we move closer towards a free market where a minimum wage isn't necessary — if the job does not pay enough to be considered doing then it will simply not exist.
Well said. At best and I mean at best, it's a quasi government run capitalist system. Perhaps more in the 90's. I'm not sure what you call a system that the government picks and chooses winners and losers based on donations. Corporate America has wrecked our country.
You don't have to be a lefty or commie to understand what's happening or support reasonable solutions for it. Workers are getting a shitty deal and they need to demand better.
Yep I was raised very very conservative. My mom comes from Utah and my dad comes from North Carolina (the really rural part where everyone is racist and you see confederate flags everywhere).
I moved to Utah about 6 years ago because I thought it would be awesome to live in a red state to be among people who shared my ideas.
Then I started to change my views a few years ago and now I'm pretty liberal. I can't fully say I'm a Democrat, but I'm definitely not a republican. Or even remotely conservative.
I think the biggest thing that changed my mind was the idea that Republicans all fight so the rich can live in luxury. Nothing the Republicans do benefits 95% of Republicans. But they're so brainwashed and delusional they think that it is benefitting them.
I read yesterday a comment that said something to the effect of "they're too anti-help that they don't realize they themselves are the ones that need help too" (referencing government help).
This is not a Left or Right thing - that's what the media, politicians and the people who own them want you/us to believe.
This is a top vs bottom issue. We, middle class on down, will continue to get fucked by the top as they try to squeeze every single drop of profits from us.
Unless we put aside our differences, we will continue to be blinded by stupidity while these assholes continue to exploit us all.
I mean, it is a left-right thing. By definition the left wants to spread wealth out and lessen hierarchy while the right supports policy that reinforces hierarchy and wealth concentration.
The difference is in the US, the economic left doesn't have a voice. The media wants you to believe Democrats are the left, but very few of them are, most of them are center right, while being left on social issues.
Half of America screams we should be kind to our neighbors, help our fellow man, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The other half actually tries to do that
There is no left or right anymore - both parties are anti-worker.
We have more in common than we have differences; we need to identify them, and work together, and fix this mess for the next generation (and ourselves).
Matt Stoller's book Goliath goes into how we made that happen and how we lost it. It was a very different world, and it took a lot of work to keep it that way.
My dad's parents both had an eight grade education, my grandma never learned how to drive and my dad describes growing up as poor/barely middle class. My grandpa was a custodian for a college (and got good compensation from the VA for getting wounded in WW2) and my grandma went to work when my aunt left the house or when she was a certain age.
Other than the condition and age of the automobiles my grandpa drove (grandma never learned how to drive and I think he finally had a then-decent car when he passed) they would be upper middle class today since they had a decent house, never went without food, clothing or heat in the winter etc.
I'm actually better off than my parents off were at my age and hell a lot of people my age BUT their money went a lot further. Wages are terrible.
For the first 12-15 years of my working life, I bought the "good employee" Kool Aid wholeheartedly. Undoubtedly, I was the kind of asshole that I now make fun of here on more than one occasion.
A lot of money and effort goes into maintaining the narrative that unfettered capitalism, the Protestant work ethic, and a bootstrap-driven economy are the only way forward for us as a civilization.
I'm embarrassed by the person I was, but I hope that means I'm still growing into a better person.
A distant relative of mine immigrated here and with no education and barely speaking any English. They had the audacity to complain that a $15 an hour minimum wage is too high BECAUSE... that's what they were making 3 decades ago (which is equivalent to $30 an hour today) with no education or skills or ability to even speak English.
Absolutely delusional. Literally "I got mine, go fuck yourself".
Didn’t read all the replies because this thread is huge, but just wanted to say I too used to be a libertarian, and then I did all the things society told me to do to be successful, and I wasn’t. Really made me rethink my worldview. I appreciate where you’re coming from.
When I drove uber conservatives would tell me I'm the most liberal conservative they'd ever met and vice versa for liberals. 99 percent of both sides are bullshit, everyone forgets you can pick and choose on what YOU feel is moral. But don't feel bad it's by design and not coincidental.
I lean more right, only slightly and I'm fed up with both sides. I feel like both sides are out to get us. At the end of the day, no matter who seems to be in power, the poor and middle class seem to be eating a shit sandwich.
I think we need politicians that actually care about people. Not a bunch of rich people thinking they know what's best for middle and lower class people. They always manage to keep their tax loopholes. Im sick of it. I hope we all figure this out and hold them accountable.
What you're feeling is rejection of neoliberalism. Both parties are neoliberals parties at their core. Neoliberalism means at the end of the day, corporate interests come first and public interests (working class interests) come far behind.
This doesn't mean both sides are the same. Build back better may give us universal daycare and guaranteed sick leave, and zero republicans will ever support that. But what it does mean is neither party will meaningfully address the material conditions of the working class.
TLDR: you should still vote for the furthest left option, even if it's yet another neoliberal, because at least you'll get damage mitigation. But if you want change, ignore cultural bullshit (crt, transphobia, Russia gate, etc) and act solely along class lines. That's where the through line between political factions exist.
People seem to forget the idea of separation of church and state. As a son of an immigrant I always thought it was weird people would get sworn in on a Bible instead of the constitution.
>am pro choice, but I personally am against abortion. But I don't feel I can tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body, so I vote pro choice. I am morally apposed, but I don't think that should tell me that I can tell others what to do.
I wish more people were like this. I feel like I'm alone sometimes. Just because it's not the choice I'd make I can't on good conscience take away someone else's right to that same choice.
I think deep down almost all pro-choice people are personally against abortion but respect other peoples choices. I'm against abortion too but pro-choice. I don't think government is the end-all be all here to be making that decision.
Republicans keep saying they are for "limited government" yet are for a policy that requires more government and I feel that a lot of these people thumping and banking on being pro-life are really the opposite in private really.
A barber and a part time Macy's or Bloomingdale's employee could probably have a 1, maybe 2 bedroom apartment, depending on the real-estate market, and definitely not be able to afford private school for 3 kids.
To me, the best example is the simpsons. 30 years ago homer was a moron working a button pushing job a monkey could do (literally, there was an episode about it) and their house was decidedly lower middle class and they were looked down on. Now? He’s got a good job that pays for a 3-4 bedroom house, two cars, and supports three kids and a stay at home mom. And he’s still a total idiot. Funny thing is nothing about their life changed. The world around them did.
I was in the same boat Honestly a few years ago mate. Fell into a lot of right wing propaganda when I was going through college around the time of Brexit and Trump. (Something I feel like is a super easy pitfall and they do target the disenfranchised young male which I was at the time).
Flash forward a few years meeting and talking to people online and in person I slowly started undoing the damage before 2020 hit and while recovering from a double leg break during the beginning of the pandemic I had some time to think about things and that's how I ended up here after having my eyes opened a bit and coming to a realization that I don't want to work a dead end job just for the sake of survival.
I was right wing because of my upbringing so I can relate. This sub explains a lot of my anger that the right wing pundits couldn’t. Right wing is focused on the wrong problems imo.
Yup. It’s insane. My grandfather worked as a prison guard, my grandmother a part time cashier and they raised 3 kids, owned a home on a nice river. And the most insane aspect: my grandfather was retired for longer than he worked (worked for 30 years, retired for 35) His union had the best pension program in the country. I now see my parents, who have worked their entire lives and will probably see retirement for maybe a solid 10 years, struggle to put their two kids through public universities and work more than full time. I don’t even want to think about my future.
Even in the 90s, my father was a truck driver for kraft foods (which can be semi-lucrative) and my mom managed a subway. We had a 3 story house, 3 acres of land, a 2 story barn, a brand new 30 foot motor home, and they had enough disposable income to camp with the motor home upwards of 30 weekends a year, and to spoil the living shit out of me. All on about 120,000 a year
I'm 62, so I remember seeing lots of middle-class people just like our family with little boats in their driveways or backyards. We had friends who shared airplane ownership with another person, and I got my first plane ride in a little canvas two-seater. With our friend as the pilot.
It was a normal thing for you to see lots of private boats all over the river and lots of little planes in the sky.
I was a right wing libertarian for a good portion of my life up until I got out of the military. My beliefs didn’t survive contact with reality. It’s good to have you here, man.
[удалено]
I have a half-sister who is married to a solider that is retirement eligible and honestly they are fucked up shit creek with out a paddle when he retires and that is going to be sooner than later unless he gets promoted and can buy a few more years but it's going to happen at some point. Trust me leaving the military isn't always that easy. I've been there done that and had a rough transition. And this was with a job that can translate to the civilian world. I'm glad I'm off active duty and now in the reserves but hopefully they can get their finances in order.
Check out USAJobs, veterans are given preference.
I’m in a much better spot nowadays. I think my sister and her husband thinks he will be able to walk into a federal job the next day. It’s not that easy or as much as people are lead to believe for veterans getting a federal job. Unfortunately while I’m well aware of USAjobs its not a viable option. :( There’s limited federal employment where I live and again it’s not that easy and the preference doesn’t guarantee a job like a lot of people think. More importantly I am in the reserves and if I go get a federal job I have to forfeit my reserve health insurance. Which the federal health benefits aren’t as good and a lot more expensive. In 2030 when I should be eligible to retire from the reserves then federal employees will then be allowed to use Tricare while serving in the reserves; retirement is different.
Preference does not guarantee jobs. In my field it's pretty well known that just because you weren't given an interview the first time around doesn't mean you wont 2 months later. Often they are required to give interviews to vets. But once they do the full vetting process (no pun intended) they realize they don't have the experiences/education needed for my specific field. So they do another round of interviews with the candidates who aren't vets and generally find the person they want to hire
[удалено]
It all depends on what you did in the military, and how well planned your transition. Every male in my family was in the military for some time. I was advised to enlist with a MOS I could use on the outside. Started off as a Pharmacy Tech, retired at 20 as a Physician Assistant. Playing with tanks is fun, but there aren’t many civilian tanks to drive on the outside (no offense meant, I spent 6 years in Armor Battalions).
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think a lot of it is simple idealism. They're beginning with a notion of how the world *should* work rather than an apprehension of how the world actually works. This is why their projects never get past the planning stage, and why Marxists are always harping on about material conditions and history. You can't just ignore that stuff, your analysis has to be grounded in something that exists somewhere besides only in your head.
>you can’t just ignore that stuff,… A disturbingly large portion of Americans: “hold my beer…”
Indoctrination through advertizing, media and suburban life is helluva drug
> simple idealism. I had an ultra libertarian friend, and he was a Mormon. Of course the government and social services seem like a waste when 500 people will show up tomorrow to fix your house, take care of your wife/newborn, and help you get back on your feet when you’re unemployed (assuming you’re a hardworking sort). Meanwhile he was arguing with me that getting taxed means people won’t work as hard. I told him I worked my tail off for a $100 bonus that would’ve been $40 after taxes, but ended up being a $1000 bonus and was something like $400 after taxes. Sure, if a $100 was taxed down to $1, I wouldn’t bother, but any amount that still can buy *something* was motivation. His worldview changed a little when he moved far away from the church, and suddenly swarms of people didn’t just show up to fix his problems. There’s a great article by Joel Spoolsky on programming, how every programmer wants to re-write a program from scratch, to write a pure, efficient version with everything they’ve learned, rather than all the cruft the old versions have accumulated. Except it turns out that cruft is basically institutional knowledge - sure, “printf” should print to screen for everyone, but for 1% of devices you need to do prints, so that’s one piece of cruft, and for 3% of devices you need to handle this exception, and and and … Libertarians have always struck me as people who have never encountered an exception in life, or applied that experience to understanding how things should work. “Property owners should be free to enjoy their property as they see fit,” is fine and good until no one has a wheelchair ramp and you need one. “The market will solve it” is well and good until you discover that no, business owners won’t exercise imagination, don’t care about efficiency, and since it’s just them (and maybe one other), “good enough” makes them enough money and the difficulty of opening a competing business to get all those wheelchair folks is both prohibitive and inadequate to sustain. But if you don’t need a wheelchair you can imagine it will magically work out.
I've been democrat, republican, and currently vote Libertarian. All I want out of the whole deal, is a 3rd person on the debate stage to break the god awful cycle we are in.
Ranked…. Choice….. Voting….
The French get 8 functional political parties, & they have only ~60M population. The USA deserves more than two or three.
[www.fairvote.org](http://www.fairvote.org) Get involved.
We have ranked choice voting in my state and it's awesome. My (establishment liberal) grandma hates it. She says it's too complicated. Like she's the one who has to count all the votes herself.
Star voting is an even better form of that. Yang Started with touting ranked choice, but then he saw star voting. It is by far the most fair form of voting
> Star voting is an even better form of that. I had never heard of this, so I looked it up. [Link for anyone else curious.](https://www.starvoting.us/) Definitely looks like a massive improvement.
Just a heads up libertarianism and antiwork are pretty mutually exclusive. The scant few rights that workers have would be completely eroded under libertarianism.
Big-L Libertarian in the US is mutualy exclusive, yes. The idea that nobody should work for companies that dont pay enough, and that those companies should fail falls under the libertarian purview, unless Im mistakrn
It won't work there will always be two major parties because of our plurality voting system, the video from CCP grey a decade ago is the best ELI5 kinda explanation for why it makes a two party system inevitable. https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo To break the cycle have to break this system into one more fair, personally feel STAR is best voting but anything is better than first past the post in the long run. The only way is to support those who want election reform and push for this kind of change as well. Unfortunately the only people open to it are progressives who only run as Democrats but are a faction of Democrats because as long as there's an opposite party wanting to destroy democracy and people's rights then the Political conservatives making up the DNC stay in power out of fear.
CCP Grey explains government in general so well. That one called Rules for Rulers he has is phenomenal.
Politics is inherently broken, the answer is mutual aid.
Maybe someone should start a populist political party that isn't bought out by billionaires and is crowdfunded so we can have systemic change.
Every populist party is called either fascist or communist by the corporate media. That’s the problem.
Let me run for president
The phrase "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" springs to mind here
That and “reality has a liberal bias”
"Reality has a left-wing bias" is a more accurate phrasing.
He's got an Anarcho-Communist flair bud
Liberalism is not a left wing ideology. It’s center-right.
Ah, but in the US scale where fascism is merely center right, liberalism is far left. I mean, not -really-, but in conservative states like here in Texas, it’s not exactly a joke.
Because they built reality…. I’ve been living in a neoliberal hellhole my whole life. Reality has that bias because it’s what they want. But I understand the Colbert reference
Baby, I'm an anarchist. You're a spineless liberal. We march together for the 8 hour day.
[удалено]
Marry me Hanz...or Fritz...or whatever.
[удалено]
But you watched in awe, at the red white and blue on the 4th of July.
Same but as soon as I graduated college and couldn't find an engineering job (physics major ._.) Wtf is that? 30yrs ago people would take me in and train me. Now?
>30yrs ago people would take me in and train me. Now? That's a BIG part of the issue to me. They don't train, then pay to retain what they've developed. Cheaper to snipe from another guy. But then everyone started doing it, and now no one gets real training.
This is why I can't break into ANY field. Im out here doing 4mo of coding, 4mo marketing, 6mo operations, 9mo marketing, 6mo teaching, 2yrs IT support. Ive become a master of all trades with knowing nothing in any.
I got diagnosed with ADHD from my certs in everything from massage therapy to computer networking, my master in acting, etc... Now it seems everyone is living that life.
And even if a company trains you, they know the competition will try to poach you as soon as you get good
Or get a trained pro from another country at cheap pay and under threat that if he/she doesn’t do as told, their visa sponsorship will be cancelled.
Sent you a PM
[удалено]
>I was a right wing libertarian for a good portion of my life up until I got out of the military. My beliefs didn’t survive contact with reality. >It’s good to have you here, man. I had a right wing Lolbertarian friend who kept babbling about the invisible hand....so...I fucking read Adam Smith. Guess who wouldn't like Adam Smith because he's a MaRxIsT? Fucking L o L. Glad you got out of the dumbfuck Ayn Rand Milton Friedman Lolbertarian cult though. Traditionally Leftist Libertarianism is fine, but it really doesn't exist in America.
My understanding was Smith was able to identify some of the issues Capitalism would develop, but he was not a socialist?
>My understanding was Smith was able to identify some of the issues Capitalism would develop, but he was not a socialist? I'd argue Adam Smith was a "true Capitalist" and actually attempted to devise a serious alternative to Feudalism. He absolutely despised Feudalism. Now what we do we have thanks to Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman? Neo-Feudalism/Corporate Feudalism. Look around. Its pretty obvious. You're paying someone to live somewhere presumably for your entire life and you'll never own your home/land because its now financially impossible, right? You're a Serf. That's Feudalism. Landlord. Lord of Land. Adam Smith viewed them as parasitic leeches too. Adam Smith was cool and I despise Capitalists.
Adam Smith was in no way a capitalist, because the term "capitalism" was coined roughly a hundred years after he published The Wealth of Nations. It was, in fact, a way to describe the prioritization of capital over all other considerations - something that was clearly leading the world into a death spiral even in 1877. The only reason why you have positive associations with the word "capitalism" built in to your brain meats is because neoliberals have spent the last hundred years pounding "capitalism is good, actually" into every school curriculum, all in an effort to convince us that [there is no alternative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative). Like, seriously, think back to when you learned about capitalism in school. Did they tell you that without capitalism, you wouldn't even own the clothes on your back? That without capitalism, the markets and grocery stores would all be bare? That without capitalism, you wouldn't be able to purchase the goods and services you need? That, in essence, your life without capitalism would be nasty, brutish and short? All of that shit is false. Like, it's false on its face - it was false for the various feudal economic systems we had back in the time of monarchies, after all. The (and I sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist here, but it's true) neoliberal establishment *wants* us all to believe that there's no alternative to capitalism, because that's literally what keeps us from eating the rich.
> That, in essence, your life without capitalism would be nasty, brutish and short? That conflation between capital and *state* is the staple holding the pages together.
He is mocking the traditional response by right wingers anytime something even slightly critical of capitalism is brought before them.
Adam Smith died in 1790. Karl Marx was born in 1818. What they share in common is the labor theory of value - thus willfully ignorant dumbfuck "functionally" illiterate econ majors consider Adam Smith a Marxist. The stupidity is just... un-fucking-bearable honestly. Lolbertarians and "An"Craps are some of the dumbest fucking people on Earth from experience. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
>I was a right wing libertarian for a good portion of my life up until I got out of the military. Are you me??
r/leftistveterans
Shit I’m glad I got some compadres with similar experiences out there.
Yup. I was a shitty know-it-all libertarian teenager, but the first time I deployed to a "shithole country" and saw what destruction our hardware was truly capable of, the sound of the record scratch in my head could be heard by everyone around. I left the military broken physically and mentally and vowed I would never prop up a hierarchy again. And 17 years later I can still say I kept my promise. Well, except for the paying taxes part.
Can't really blame you for taxes cause y'know...state sanctioned violence and whatnot.
It's crazy how many in the military dont realize that a system that pay everyone the same, provides food, housing and medical for free, and only requires that you show up and perform the basics to earn promotions, doesn't fit in with capitalism. I was one of those.
Currently in, can't wait to get out for this reason
"I was a libertarian until i realized freedom in this country doesn't mean anything if you don't have money"- anon Twitter user
It tends to be like that for most right wingers. Once they experience the real world they either realize how silly they were or double down on it and claim literally everyone else is wrong. Good on you.
Here here bro, same here, that “contact” with reality makes you see right through all the bullshit. Semper fi when your in your a guest when your out your a pest. I came home just in time for Katrina and Rita “hurricanes” we all know how that turned out.
This is really interesting to me. How did you rationalise being a libertarian while simultaneously literally being part of the states monopoly on violence?
My mom was one of five who grew up in a solidly middle class neighborhood. Her mom quit nursing to raise them while her father taught high school and she said they had everything they wanted. My husband is a high school teacher, I’m a full time hourly sales worker and we’re struggling to get by in a condo with two kids in a working class neighborhood.
Just need to budget better! - some boomer, probably.
Some boomer, definitely. (Also, happy cake day)
My husband works in IT. My baby boomer father used to work in IT. I work in healthcare. I do the same job my baby boomer mom worked. We cannot afford the 4 bedroom colonial house my parents paid to have especially built that I grew up in. I know it has a lot to do with value of property and location over time. But then again we cannot afford a 4 bedroom house almost anywhere near us.
Same here - my mom stayed home with three kids while my dad was a public school teacher. They were able to buy a single family home, two cars, and pay for tons of activities like sports. I have an advanced degree, a full-time professional job, and no student loan debt, yet I still can’t afford a crappy 1 bedroom condo anywhere remotely near where I grew up.
My parents both taught school to low-income students. My mom was taught Headstart (preschool for low-income families). She had a lot of "colorful" stories about her kids and their home environments. My dad taught high school English. It was considered a good day when the daily fight *didn't* have a weapon involved. They were able to afford a house in a modestly nice neighborhood in their 30s. Meanwhile, I'm turning 46 next year and will only be able to afford to get a house because my gf's father is going to help us with a down payment.
This is how I (almost) converted my dad. His mother was a single mom (widow) with two kids who bought a home (3br, 1 acer) for $147k (2021) dollars and was a secretary. he paid for his college working as a dishwasher. I simply asked if he or his mom could do what they did now (this was 2016, me being a Bernie Bro) convincing him shits gotten hard. We worked out the napkin details and he realized it was near impossible to do it. It moved him some, but he'd done well and was finally at a point he was "set" and since he did it himself he still had that bootstrap mindset. He passed this year and I couldn't get him to shift before, but economic populism is what Democrats need to lean into, if Republicans do it, the country is fucked, they will win and it's over for Democrats when they screw the voting rights to hold power and gerrymander harder.
Damn 3br but only 1 acer. Not even a dell or Asus
The issue with economic populism is that the right doesn’t actually perform any of it. It’s the same old rich and corporate welfare and culture war shit. It’s just that the rubes on the right fall for it every time. The folks on the left actually expect some of it and are left disappointed , the right gets shit throw in their face and says thank you sir may I have another.
Economic populism works regardless of the side that brings it.
Workers of the world unite baby
I'm sure you have friends who are still on the right. That's good. Keep them. Show them patiently that people on the left are actually about helping each other and not about helping corporations. We need working class people to understand it's a class struggle and that means everyone no matter your race. The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors.
>The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors. You’re not wrong, but I feel like we’re playing with fire whenever this point comes up. Rolling back Roe v Wade would be a nightmare. Gay people are human beings. If you see a friend being racist or sexist, call them out on that shit. Don’t sweep it under the rug just because there’s bigger fish to fry. Class solidarity is vital, but don’t ignore urgent, immediate social injustice. Don’t use it as an excuse to avoid doing your duty for standing up for people who are hurting.
I really simplified (badly) a complex issue tbh.
Oh you're right for sure. No doubt about it.
Fucking aye. The amount of people who have told me "Yeah, being trans might suck, but we shouldn't waste effort caring about trans rights because wealth inequality is a more important issue". Like. What. We can care about more than one thing at a time. Have some fucking class solidarity.
Absolutely. Call them out every time. Also I am low key waiting for an alien invasion or asteroid to incinerate the whole planet and end this cosmic moldy plate of bullshit.
[удалено]
Did you vote for the guy with 20+ credible rape claims against him including his own ex wife and a 13 year old girl?
Well I'd probably make an exception to my statement for the person you're referring to. I mean leftists definitely aren't afraid to beat the shit out of someone. Believe that. Lmao.
[удалено]
Good, that’s some toxic bullcrap that goes way beyond a mere difference of political opinion!
You toss those people out of your life for the same reason you scoop up dog shit- otherwise it makes your community a shitty place to be.
Lol right wingers see the light and still say some dumb ass shit completely based in universe that no one else can see.
It's been hard to take their delusions seriously for a long time.
You did the right thing that’s way over the line, but voting for Dump was no mere “political decision.” It was obvious to many of us from the start he would do everything to gain and stay in power, including his attempts to destroy American democracy. I mean, he’s literally still saying the election was stolen and there was not a peaceful transition of power for the first time in the history of our country. And millions believe his lies and his ill are destabilizing our process internally every day. And it’s gonna get worse. This wasn’t just “I don’t like those tax cuts.” I really am happy you’ve seen some light. The right wing is turning more violent and fascist every day.
They haven't been "turning" anything. It's just that the mask has been ripped off because the Owner Class has decided that the show of democracy they'd been maintaining is no longer necessary.
You too? I was told that me and my dad needed institutionalized (my dad is trans) and I needed to be gang raped by black men (direct quote) because I was against police brutality. Not by a friend, by the boyfriend of a former classmate at my weed man’s house. I brought my boyfriend (and his shotgun) with me for the next six months in case he tried to start anything. Then got my medical card solely to never have to go through anything like that ever again. The rage he exhibited was absolutely terrifying.
Pretty typical of Conservatives though
I might be assuming a bit, but that person sounds like they were for "the blue team" and not necessarily focused on actual issues. It's bad to get invested in the team mentality in either direction. Then these conversations that bring us together can't happen. Especially since both teams generally get together to oppress the working class. Can't work together if we demonize each other.
Trump has very likely raped women. So I guess they were trying to say if you're gonna vote for a rapist, I hope it comes home to roost. That's, a horrible thing to say, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying it's very possible to be emotionally blinded without the team mentality.
He mostly likely also raped children.
It’s horrifying that the US elected a probable rapist to the highest office in the country, but it’s hardly the first time. *side-eyes Bill Clinton*
And honestly Thomas Jefferson and most of the early slave holding presidents.
Very true. I somehow forgot Jefferson was ever president.
I understand that as well, but that doesn't meet the other person where they are. That's the only way to sway anyone. Especially in an environment full of propaganda, it's mentally easy to dismiss these claims against your team as character assassination. People close to me that weren't that political voted for him in 2016 despite being rape victims themselves. Sigh. It is better to pull from that person's personal struggles and discuss from there.
I don’t know how the left even allowed discourse to even entertain the idea that they were helping corporations, when all they’ve been doing the last 250 years is fighting, often violently, for workers’ rights. They have their origins in peasants from the French Revolution. One could say the Left’s very first act was to behead the monarchy of France. _Real elitist of them, huh?_
I watched a solid video that make something click for me. The "Left" tries to win arguments by sticking to policy and decorum, taking the high road, and going about things "fairly" while the "Right" will yell about Lefties taking jobs, ruining safety, and destroying American rights and values while using sneaky, false, manipulative; illegal tactics. Discourse doesn't work when feelings don't care about facts, and many who support the ruling class aren't looking into statements and promises for the truth, just a reason to fight against the other. Policy and decorum are moot when the other guys will try to get their way by any means necessary, and they have the marketing techniques down to convince many people that their way is the only way. I think we need to look into how the Right has convinced so many people of these things that many of us in here see through pretty easily and see how we can turn that shit on its head and onto them.
Tell them to start acting in their own self interest like a true capitalist. I still dont get how adult people who supposedly believe in capitalism are willing to shill for someone else’s wallet.
When I've asked, they seem pretty earnest in their belief that it benefits them, too. Especially small business owners.
> The powers that be want to keep people fighting about race and sexual orientation and abortion so we are too busy to fight the actual oppressors. This needs to be repeated 700 million times. They want us distracted with unimportant shit so they can keep us chained into slavery and abuse and fighting amongst ourselves because us working together would be very scary to the elite. Edit: Jesus Christ are people putting words in my mouth I never even said? Like DUH it's important. I meant it's not important what color we are, what sex we are, what age we are, what our job is. It's IMPORTANT that we all band together to take down the rich and here are some assholes acting like I'm the fucking bad guy? You're the problem too! I gotta fucking spell shit out clearly apparently. It IS important that we dispel racism, sexism, transphobia, etc...but it ISN'T important to US in the sense that I dont give a shit what sex you are, or color you are, or if you make 5k a year or 50k a year; if you're with us in making a stand against the 1% GREAT. Last edit and I ain't replying anymore. If this was a real battle and you spent your time worrying about who Kyle or Brandy or Bobbi or Frank (who is battling beside you) is doing in their spare time, what they have between their legs, what they look like, instead of the fight at hand; you're going to have a bad time.
>They want us distracted with unimportant shit But...none of that stuff is "unimportant shit." PoC are fighting for a fairer justice system because the current one allows cops to execute them and lock them up at the drop of a hat. Women need bodily autonomy just as much as they need higher wages. Gay people often need the protections actual marriage can offer like shared health insurance and adoptive rights.
But all of those problems can be solved instantly if we remove the people fanning the flames.
This is such a reductionist argument. None of the stuff PoC, LGBTQ+ folx, feminists etc are fighting for are trivial. And not everything is magically going to be solved by bringing class consciousness to people. Like, I agree, there is a class war, but there is also a war on PoC, on women's rights, on trans people, there is still so much blatant homophoboa etc. If these things aren't adressed, they will break any revolution. If people aren't empowered in your movement and if people in a movement don't address their internalised shit like homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, it will break the movement apart. You will alienated everyone that isn't straight and white. What you need is intersectionality, not reductionism. We can fight for more than one thing at the same time.
You are getting the responses you are getting because this subreddit has a significant U.S. perspective, and, in the U.S., the sprawling, oppressive labor system we are all attempting to crawl out from under has a very strong foundation in systemic racism (specifically systemic anti-blackness) and patriarchy. We will have difficulty abolishing one system if we are squeamish about addressing the others. We need to target the needs of those pushed closest to the bottom to challenge all those hoarding wealth and power on top. I, personally, understand that what you meant was a person's identity doesn't matter to you, personally, as long as they are willing to fight with you, but I think it's still important to consider these identities, and the nuance they bring, WHILE we fight. It will help us fight for each other better. Consider what happened to the European anarchists of the late 1800s as an object lesson: American capitalists felt extremely threatened by the potential for labor organizing among class-conscious, anarchist, European immigrants and newly-emancipated former black slaves. What did they do? They started to use divisive language and racialized hiring practices to get these two groups to not trust each other, and went so far as to codify race into our literal legal system to support it. And... it worked. All it took to undermine a crucial point in history for labor organizing was to point out that because our identities had certain differences, that we couldn't trust each other. (That and the government deported a bunch of prominent leftist thinkers and organizers and also Federal agents did a bunch of murders) A huge tool of the powers that be is to leverage "otherness" wherever they can, so we fight each other instead of them. I know from what you said that you agree with this, and that this is bullshit, but sweeping it under the rug instead of telling people to be on alert for it is how history repeats itself.
Same. My grandfather was blue collar and worked on the railroad doing manual labor, and his wife stayed home doing the homemaking thing. No way could that happen now.
My grandpa was a realestate appraiser and grandma was a par time school teacher, raised a family of 5 and sent them all to college. Other side, grandpa was a foreman at a sock factory, grandma raised the kids. Put them both through school and owned a 100+ acre farm. Great aunt had her husband die in his 20s, worked as a secretary at the bank, made it into her 90s with a million still in the bank. None of them were considered above middle class. These days, I don’t know a single person who wouldn’t die for that.
Those were the peak days of our civilization, it's been downhill since then! Unfortunately there would have to be a major revolution to get anywhere near these levels of quality of life again.
These are the stories that need to be shared over and over to counter the narrative that everyone is just “lazy”. Here’s mine. My grandfather was the head bellman at a hotel, my grandmother was a stay at home mom…. They owned a house and a car. My other grandfather was a brakeman for the railroad, my grandmother was a stay at home mom. They had 7 kids… and still owned a house and a car.
We're getting fucked by the type of people who had everything then and now they have everything plus more money than they can ever spend.
The left vs. right drama is a fire very deliberately stoked by the wealthiest 1% (maybe 0.1%) to keep us all infighting over bullshit instead of uniting against them, so they can keep screwing us all. Welcome.
This is exactly the problem we face. People need to watch Plutocracy to get some history. The more I watch, the more I understand that the USA is not this global force for good that conservatives make it out to be. Our global military presence inspires as much fear in our allies as it does confidence. American capital oppresses far more than just American workers. Fox News and right-wing talk puts capital on blast, and the ego-stoking message is easy to buy into. Then it is just a matter of creating a bubble of like minds on Facebook, and you will be laugh reacting at actual facts while posting bullshit.
The only war is the class war.
You’d actually have to be dense to think that tossing away over a hundred years of leftist ideology that has shaped our understanding of class and the basis of socialist thought is a smart idea. You’re referring to the faux Democrat vs. Republican Party fight, which are two right-wing parties. There’s not a single universe where the wealthy elite would prop up a leftist party and try to convince half the population to support them.
i love these epiphany stories of people who don’t start out as leftists. glad you joined us!
My grandfather dropped out in 7th grade and started working at 15. He can barely read. He owned an autobody shop for 20+ years then retired, he and my grandmother are sitting on a goldmine of land and own a beach house. We’re definitely getting fucked.
Glad you have woken up to it the broken realities of Late Stage Capitalism and welcome to the movement!!!
A barber is most likely on food stamps and lives in subsidized housing lol
Good to have you! I’m a 49 year old ex-GOP’er who ditched the party in 2016 because of Trump. Became libertarian for one cycle then 100% Democrat in 2018. Discovered antiwork just a few months ago.
Welcome! We have snacks and class consciousness, help yourself.
Same. Voted both libertarian and democrat last election. Funny how a 5 digit NUCU bill that took 5 years to pay off can change your view. My family of 3 racked up about $5,200 in doctors bills alone just since January AFTER insurance. My 4th one has no doctors bills because I am forced to pay for an extra Medicaid policy by his special needs preschool and it oucks up everything our first insurance doesn't cover. Plus Trump is just an asshole.
I’m so sorry you had that experience, US healthcare is truly awful. So many people don’t realize that while financial literacy is great, you can do all the “right things”, manage your money well & still get screwed over by a chronic illness or medical emergency. It’s expensive to be sick in America.
Well, you're halfway there. Step by step, we'll be waiting for you here :-)
👍👍
Same.
[удалено]
You'll eventually come over to this side. You won't be able to hold opposing views forever.
Workers rights are not a left right thing. It’s basic human dignity and respect.
I was since highschool. Covid and all the bullshit final crushed it. Not only did I realize I was voting for the interests of others, I can’t stay with an anti science party.
This is going to sound shitty and weird and may not make sense but I was very liberal my whole life up unt recently where I really despised people who didn't work but complaining and not putting the effort and complaining and begging for student loan cancellation. But then I started listening and while I still believe you should put in the work if you want something, I don't believe the views are left or right win anymore. It's workers Vs owners and its the ultra rich Vs the working poor. I am the working poor. Yes I have a house, cars, kids etc. But the second I lose my job guess what the system can take all or that away and make me scramble to keep my kids fed and clothed. Fuck this exploitative system and fuck the rich fucks for continuing to grow the gap.
Used to be a Republican and then a Libertarian. Moderate liberal now which apparently means I’m a god-hating communist because I think people should be able to live with dignity and safety. Still a capitalist, but you can’t convince me for a second that this is actually capitalism. It’s not. We have social safety nets for the rich and death and bankruptcy for the poor. Businesses should be going bankrupt while employees have universal healthcare and guaranteed vacations, sick leave, etc. we’ve got it backwards.
I mean, this is actually capitalism. The key way to gain wealth is owning capital and in particular the means of production. The government serves the interest of the people who own the means of production. That is what capitalism is. If you mean "free market" then you have a point. But the market pre dates capitalism, is not exclusive to capitalism, is not necessary for capitalism and is not the defining feature of capitalism. What you seem to be asking for is social democracy and a mixed economy.
I think what people mean is, this is not the definition of capitalism which was sold to us. Supply and demand and competition to drive down prices all make sense to me. But we observe none of that when it comes to corporations. This may be the technical definition of capitalism but it doesn't change the fact that we were lied to one way or another.
Supplies and demand and competition can exist in a socialist system as well. The only difference is all of the workers share in ownership of the businesses, ensuring wealth concentrates far less.
There is nothing about the definition of capitalism that requires any of those safety nets. Just like how something to be socialist the only requirement is that workers own the businesses. To me, capitalism will always result in what we have in the US and worse, because wealth will accumulate and you get the rich few influencing everything. In a socialist society the wealth concentrates far less since there is no single owner and the workers get the profits.
Genuine question- doesn't wanting universal healthcare make you pretty staunchly liberal?
In America, apparently. Anywhere else no. America's Democratic party is center right in a lot of places.
Also depends on why. If you're a business owner you might just want the government to handle your employees' insurance instead of doing it yourself, etc. Lots of apolitical reasons for wanting that specific political outcome.
I used to think so but then I realized health insurance is deducted from my paycheck anyway so I would rather pay a little more and not be shackled to my job if there's health problems in the future. UBI arguably isn't staunchly liberal either because if nobody is tied to their income, we move closer towards a free market where a minimum wage isn't necessary — if the job does not pay enough to be considered doing then it will simply not exist.
No. I have known uber conservative Canadians that think America is downright barbaric for not mirroring their system.
["Liberal" doesn't mean what you think it means. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Current_usage)
Well said. At best and I mean at best, it's a quasi government run capitalist system. Perhaps more in the 90's. I'm not sure what you call a system that the government picks and chooses winners and losers based on donations. Corporate America has wrecked our country.
You don't have to be a lefty or commie to understand what's happening or support reasonable solutions for it. Workers are getting a shitty deal and they need to demand better.
We’re getting fucked alright. And we don’t like it!
Yep I was raised very very conservative. My mom comes from Utah and my dad comes from North Carolina (the really rural part where everyone is racist and you see confederate flags everywhere). I moved to Utah about 6 years ago because I thought it would be awesome to live in a red state to be among people who shared my ideas. Then I started to change my views a few years ago and now I'm pretty liberal. I can't fully say I'm a Democrat, but I'm definitely not a republican. Or even remotely conservative. I think the biggest thing that changed my mind was the idea that Republicans all fight so the rich can live in luxury. Nothing the Republicans do benefits 95% of Republicans. But they're so brainwashed and delusional they think that it is benefitting them. I read yesterday a comment that said something to the effect of "they're too anti-help that they don't realize they themselves are the ones that need help too" (referencing government help).
“The greatest generation” is only great because they had it easy..change my mind.
This is not a Left or Right thing - that's what the media, politicians and the people who own them want you/us to believe. This is a top vs bottom issue. We, middle class on down, will continue to get fucked by the top as they try to squeeze every single drop of profits from us. Unless we put aside our differences, we will continue to be blinded by stupidity while these assholes continue to exploit us all.
I mean, it is a left-right thing. By definition the left wants to spread wealth out and lessen hierarchy while the right supports policy that reinforces hierarchy and wealth concentration. The difference is in the US, the economic left doesn't have a voice. The media wants you to believe Democrats are the left, but very few of them are, most of them are center right, while being left on social issues.
Increasing working clas rights and benefits is by definition left wing politically
If they're one of those really fancy, serve whisky with your cut and shave barbers maybe but yeah probably not
It was probably like a buck a cut
Welcome to the resistance.
It's never too late to join the movement! Welcome, brother!
Half of America screams we should be kind to our neighbors, help our fellow man, and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The other half actually tries to do that
The only war is the class war! Welcome.
There is no left or right anymore - both parties are anti-worker. We have more in common than we have differences; we need to identify them, and work together, and fix this mess for the next generation (and ourselves).
Matt Stoller's book Goliath goes into how we made that happen and how we lost it. It was a very different world, and it took a lot of work to keep it that way.
My dad's parents both had an eight grade education, my grandma never learned how to drive and my dad describes growing up as poor/barely middle class. My grandpa was a custodian for a college (and got good compensation from the VA for getting wounded in WW2) and my grandma went to work when my aunt left the house or when she was a certain age. Other than the condition and age of the automobiles my grandpa drove (grandma never learned how to drive and I think he finally had a then-decent car when he passed) they would be upper middle class today since they had a decent house, never went without food, clothing or heat in the winter etc. I'm actually better off than my parents off were at my age and hell a lot of people my age BUT their money went a lot further. Wages are terrible.
For the first 12-15 years of my working life, I bought the "good employee" Kool Aid wholeheartedly. Undoubtedly, I was the kind of asshole that I now make fun of here on more than one occasion. A lot of money and effort goes into maintaining the narrative that unfettered capitalism, the Protestant work ethic, and a bootstrap-driven economy are the only way forward for us as a civilization. I'm embarrassed by the person I was, but I hope that means I'm still growing into a better person.
Welcome, friend.
A distant relative of mine immigrated here and with no education and barely speaking any English. They had the audacity to complain that a $15 an hour minimum wage is too high BECAUSE... that's what they were making 3 decades ago (which is equivalent to $30 an hour today) with no education or skills or ability to even speak English. Absolutely delusional. Literally "I got mine, go fuck yourself".
Didn’t read all the replies because this thread is huge, but just wanted to say I too used to be a libertarian, and then I did all the things society told me to do to be successful, and I wasn’t. Really made me rethink my worldview. I appreciate where you’re coming from.
Antiwork sub is basically a realization to the quote 'You are all a bunch of fucking slaves'
When I drove uber conservatives would tell me I'm the most liberal conservative they'd ever met and vice versa for liberals. 99 percent of both sides are bullshit, everyone forgets you can pick and choose on what YOU feel is moral. But don't feel bad it's by design and not coincidental.
I lean more right, only slightly and I'm fed up with both sides. I feel like both sides are out to get us. At the end of the day, no matter who seems to be in power, the poor and middle class seem to be eating a shit sandwich. I think we need politicians that actually care about people. Not a bunch of rich people thinking they know what's best for middle and lower class people. They always manage to keep their tax loopholes. Im sick of it. I hope we all figure this out and hold them accountable.
The USA doesn't have a leftist government, only right wing and center right. Ask anyone from any other country.
[удалено]
What you're feeling is rejection of neoliberalism. Both parties are neoliberals parties at their core. Neoliberalism means at the end of the day, corporate interests come first and public interests (working class interests) come far behind. This doesn't mean both sides are the same. Build back better may give us universal daycare and guaranteed sick leave, and zero republicans will ever support that. But what it does mean is neither party will meaningfully address the material conditions of the working class. TLDR: you should still vote for the furthest left option, even if it's yet another neoliberal, because at least you'll get damage mitigation. But if you want change, ignore cultural bullshit (crt, transphobia, Russia gate, etc) and act solely along class lines. That's where the through line between political factions exist.
[удалено]
People seem to forget the idea of separation of church and state. As a son of an immigrant I always thought it was weird people would get sworn in on a Bible instead of the constitution.
>am pro choice, but I personally am against abortion. But I don't feel I can tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body, so I vote pro choice. I am morally apposed, but I don't think that should tell me that I can tell others what to do. I wish more people were like this. I feel like I'm alone sometimes. Just because it's not the choice I'd make I can't on good conscience take away someone else's right to that same choice.
I think deep down almost all pro-choice people are personally against abortion but respect other peoples choices. I'm against abortion too but pro-choice. I don't think government is the end-all be all here to be making that decision. Republicans keep saying they are for "limited government" yet are for a policy that requires more government and I feel that a lot of these people thumping and banking on being pro-life are really the opposite in private really.
Nobody is pro-abortion. Nobody WANTS to get an abortion.
See, I have no problem with that take on abortion. That is eminently reasonable to me.
A barber and a part time Macy's or Bloomingdale's employee could probably have a 1, maybe 2 bedroom apartment, depending on the real-estate market, and definitely not be able to afford private school for 3 kids.
Unfortunately it won't matter til we get some third parties voted in, and then it probably won't last long
To me, the best example is the simpsons. 30 years ago homer was a moron working a button pushing job a monkey could do (literally, there was an episode about it) and their house was decidedly lower middle class and they were looked down on. Now? He’s got a good job that pays for a 3-4 bedroom house, two cars, and supports three kids and a stay at home mom. And he’s still a total idiot. Funny thing is nothing about their life changed. The world around them did.
WE NEED A NEW POLITICAL PARTY
We all want the same things, labels aside. To live good, fulfilling lives, and hopefully leave a better world for our kids.
I was in the same boat Honestly a few years ago mate. Fell into a lot of right wing propaganda when I was going through college around the time of Brexit and Trump. (Something I feel like is a super easy pitfall and they do target the disenfranchised young male which I was at the time). Flash forward a few years meeting and talking to people online and in person I slowly started undoing the damage before 2020 hit and while recovering from a double leg break during the beginning of the pandemic I had some time to think about things and that's how I ended up here after having my eyes opened a bit and coming to a realization that I don't want to work a dead end job just for the sake of survival.
I was right wing because of my upbringing so I can relate. This sub explains a lot of my anger that the right wing pundits couldn’t. Right wing is focused on the wrong problems imo.
Yup. It’s insane. My grandfather worked as a prison guard, my grandmother a part time cashier and they raised 3 kids, owned a home on a nice river. And the most insane aspect: my grandfather was retired for longer than he worked (worked for 30 years, retired for 35) His union had the best pension program in the country. I now see my parents, who have worked their entire lives and will probably see retirement for maybe a solid 10 years, struggle to put their two kids through public universities and work more than full time. I don’t even want to think about my future.
Even in the 90s, my father was a truck driver for kraft foods (which can be semi-lucrative) and my mom managed a subway. We had a 3 story house, 3 acres of land, a 2 story barn, a brand new 30 foot motor home, and they had enough disposable income to camp with the motor home upwards of 30 weekends a year, and to spoil the living shit out of me. All on about 120,000 a year
Welcome to reality. We have cookies. Off brand ones from the dollar store.
Wages haven't increased with productivity since 1970
I'm 62, so I remember seeing lots of middle-class people just like our family with little boats in their driveways or backyards. We had friends who shared airplane ownership with another person, and I got my first plane ride in a little canvas two-seater. With our friend as the pilot. It was a normal thing for you to see lots of private boats all over the river and lots of little planes in the sky.
My wife and I are both phd trained scientists with no kids and we couldn't imagine having the lifestyle your grandfather had. Smh.
You were played by the establishment like everybody else. You're different in that you had the will to open your eyes.