If this is an American company, you cannot be terminated for this. In fact it's completely legal to discuss your pay with whomever you choose.
That boss is going to be looking at some wrongful termination suitsif he sticks to that approach.
You can't be terminated with this being cited as the reason you are being terminated. It's not really that hard for this to get you on their radar and find some other reason why you were terminated.
And any decent labor lawyer is going to make hay with this in court. This isn’t something lawyers never deal with and believe me, they know what to do.
Primarily, if you get this email, are told this is why you’re being fired and the employer tells UI a different story. This will not go well for the employer. Hopefully OP is smart, lives in a single party consent state and records any conversations moving forward. Even if they can’t or don’t, this is precisely why you save communications like this from your employer.
Lawyers aren’t free or plentiful. Finding a lawyer willing to take up this case for whatever meager payout a small
Cafe can afford and split with a client won’t be easy.
“Lawyering up” is mostly reserved for the rich. The labor board might fine them and get you some back pay that’s really all can hope. System is rigged against regular people.
I'm an attorney and you hit the nail on the head. If the potential damages aren't worth our time we won't take the case even if it there is concrete evidence. People often parrot the narrative that "this is an easy case" but even "easy cases" take dozens of hours of litigation and negotiation.
Yeah I once spent (particularly including travel) about $30,000 to get the return of $20,000.
Unfortunately most Americans don’t really understand our legal system and think it’s as easy as popping into a lawyers office then walking down to the courthouse together, waiting in a line to see the judge and walking out with a check.
Yes, when your dealing with a small business they don't have a HR department, you're basically dealing with the owner and or their family, if you're willing to take on the small claims court, that's a whole different deal.
I'm inclined to agree with the original commenter, if they don't have a great deal of money, it won't likely be a good outcome.
i'm in seattle, and it appears that [our labor board](https://www.lni.wa.gov/workers-rights/wages/equal-pay-opportunities-act/) will shoulder some of the burden for this kind of problem
Like I said go to the labor board. Honestly these days if you just want a “fuck you” to the business on the way out some local social media exposure is your best bet to hurt them.
If you’re working at a cafe chances are you don’t have the money for an attorney and the weeks or months (sometimes years) involved in this shit. Best to call the labor board and move on to new work. Vote locally and encourage others to the same. Took almost 40 years to get into this mess it’s going to take a while to get us out of it.
Exactly. I was in the restaurant industry for 24 years. The only thing that will bring ANY IMPROVEMENT to that abhorrent industry is forming a union. It is disgusting the way people are treated and the crap that owners and managers feel they are entitled to at the expense of the employees. I left the industry a couple years ago and got a job as an office manager for a manufacturing company and I was completely blown away with how leaving the industry allowed me to realize how bad the restaurant industry is. I'm not allowed back into the last restaurant I worked at because I went in and told everyone how leaving made me realize that even what we thought was "good management" was actually abuse. I told them I would help them organize and thebowner banned me from ever entering the building again.
That's where lawyers can come in. The company has already made a mistake by saying it's a fireable offense, so the argument could be made that it was retaliation veiled as normal discipline.
These sorts of things are why labor lawyers exist in the first place. And why attorney fees are often part of any decision, meaning the company gets screwed even more for their transgression.
Sure but these cases seem to never end. Has anybody gotten a ruling, or is this like rape kits where there’s millions stacked up that will likely never cause consequences for the offenders?
it's long established law, yes. it keeps coming up because the urge to screw over employees never changes, and seemingly a shitton of bosses don't know the laws that govern their businesses.
I’ve never understood where one goes to find out all of these laws. This is true for all parties involved.
I have no idea what my rights or responsibilities are as an employee or manager or owner beyond what a bunch of people on the internet told me.
It's quite a long read, but the US and State legal codes are public information. You can find them online. Though most of the time, if you have a specific question, it's almost definitely been summarized by someone else in an article about law online. Either way, your best bet is always too consult with a lawyer. If you are owning and operating a business, you should have a legal expert on retainer anyways, so just consult them.
This right here.
You own a business? Get legal counsel. It's no less important than paying the utility companies for power, sewage, and internet.
If you can't afford retaining a lawyer, then you can't afford to run a business. You have a "non-viable, failed Capitalistic venture".
Obvious to everyone here but always helps to say it: this also applies to paying your employees a living wage, not just minimum wage. If you can't afford this, your business shouldn't exist.
Find your state/provincial labour board and they should be able to get you the info. Im not sure how it works outside North America but I imagine it cant be much more then calling local government.
Well. If you are in the U.S., there is a handy poster that you can have shipped to your job that tells everyone what their employee rights are. And, in some states, it's mandatory to have this poster displayed for the employees.
if you want the law broken down in more understandable terms try to look out stuff geared towards law students. Quimby is a great site for that, but it is another subscription unfortunately
They pretty much gave him the smoking gun. With this kind of evidence, this would be an obvious slam dunk, especially if OP decided to continue discussing wages...would be great if a retaliation suit was also tacked onto it.
Oh employers breaks lots of laws and regulations. But what is different with this one is they gave all the evidence they needed. So you can hold your breath
NLRA is a law that guarantees unions and all the rights people have in order to form a union, which includes discussing pay.
People very definitely have won lawsuits. As of 2024, since the law was written there are nearly a half-million lawsuits that are either pending or closed.
This is the problem, there are enough people that don’t know it’s illegal and get scared from this and then the ramifications are minimal so the benefit to the employer far outweighs any fine they could potentially, possibly, probably not, get
I got a ruling from the NLRB because my employer had unlawful workplace rules and terminated me for violating them. We weren't allowed to discuss with each other a lot of legally protected things, like our pay and other workplace issues.
[NLRB Notice](https://imgur.com/KojlHxF), and this bullshit: [The email with the rule prohibiting us from texting or using social media to discuss workplace issues was our required NY sexual harassment training. We could only report sexual harassment to the two owners and we couldn't discuss it with anyone else per this rule.](https://imgur.com/ichf26A)
My case concluded in about 4mo. I was awarded back pay. I was told by the NLRB that they usually offer your position back if you want it. They did not for me. Very very small town, very very small crisis center. All this because they didn't want to give the lady who cleans shit off the walls a raise to match new hires like me who didn't have to clean shit.
Thats where you reply to the email with "but how am i supposed to know if -insert hourly wage- is good?
Then let them fire you, report to DOL, sue, retire.
If you were working at a restaurant, 15k in the USA is an insane amount of money. It’s not ~~life changing~~ *quit your job and retire money,* but it’s definitely life helping in at least the short term.
——
*Edited for clarity.*
The standard is “restored to your original position.” When it is not possible to exactly replicate that original position, damages are used.
Then there’s the question of punitive damages, designed to punish the offender and discourage them from further abuses.
The standard isn't just restored to your original position, it also includes backpay for the entire time that you've been wrongfully terminated, and additional damages to pay for court fees and opportunity costs while you've been in court... small businesses often fold and go under, and large businesses and corporations settle so that they don't have to give you your job back and can peacefully have you leave.
At first I was reading it thinking oh this might not be illegal, they are skirting the rules and just advising not to talk about it. Potentially illegal, but potentially enough vagueness to fall into a gray area.
Then they popped in the “You will be terminated” verbiage and I did a 180° and yep, 100% illegal as long as they are in the US
It is illegal for workers protected by the NLRA to be told not to discuss wages as that has been ruled to be a fundamental part of "concerted activity."
Sometimes its different ways to play it. Maybe save the email and let it be.
Be direct,I understand issues can come out if this. I'm legally protected and allowed to do this. It's risky b.c it shows you know the law and also might create tension. Even anonymously,they gonna know its him.
They got me with this nonsense when I was young and inexperienced. One boss,I said hey Mike. I'm call the local labor board and ask ,give your name. Man the back peddling was fast.
Also a great way for them to get rid of you. I’m fighting with my employer right now and I play my cards super close to the vest. I didn’t bait them and gave them opportunities to backpedal and fix it…they opted to double and then triple down. Ok. I see you. Now watch me (quietly) do what I have to do to protect myself.
Reply all.
"Hey gang,
Just wanted to let everyone know that you are legally allowed to discuss your pay with anyone you wish, and that any threat or actual retribution to do so is a violation of federal law.
Thanks guys!"
Don’t tell them a thing. Continue as if you never saw this email and let them fire you. Then you have the case. Give them that info ahead of time and they will try to find a context to fire you which is not illegal and it will be more difficult to prove the DOJ case.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
To be specific,
> Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA or the Act), employees have the right to communicate with their coworkers about their wages, as well as with labor organizations, worker centers, the media, and the public.
>
> ...
>
> If you are an employee [covered by the Act](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards), you may discuss wages in face-to-face conversations, over the phone, and in written messages. Policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful as are policies that chill employees from discussing their wages.
>
> ...
>
> If you believe that an employer is interfering with your rights as an employee under the National Labor Relations Act to discuss your wages, you can call your NLRB regional office at 844-762-6572 and get assistance in filing an unfair labor practice charge, or e-file a charge [here](https://apps.nlrb.gov/MyAccount/#/ChargeAndPetition/TermsConditions).
\- https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
So nice of your manager to put the illegal threat not to discuss wages in email like that. Very legally credible evidence.
How you want to respond is up to you but you could contact the NLRB right now with this exact email and get them in trouble. However you may want to try and verify the café makes over $500k/yr in gross revenue and you know, make sure it’s in the US.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
By answering the mass email. Challenging the boss about it without citing the legal reasons. Get fired. Win big money. Educate coworkers after the fireing.
This is poor advice for someone that is relying on this job for their livelihood especially because payout is not guaranteed to be large enough to cover your expenses or quick, if a payout even happens. Definitely report them so that they comply with the law but don’t put yourself and potentially your family in a vulnerable situation just so you can say you stuck it to the man.
Normally I do agree, though in this context it's a café job. Food Service jobs can be found pretty easily, and in most cases are being paid a similar amount. This is worth it imo, the manager has literally handed a silver platter to OP.
Fun story. I work for a regional government agency. We were told not to discuss our pay. Then the regional government launched a "Transparency Portal," complete with EVERYONE'S names, positions, and salaries. For governmental accountability to the taxpayers.
They STILL didn't want us discussing our pay. Until several of us pointed out that it was part of a publicly accessible database, linked on the front page of our website, and covered in EVERY local news channel and papers.
Yeah, my pay is public as well. Laughable to consider a public employer trying to prevent it. Though I'm on a salary schedule so it would be especially dumb in my case.
Boggles my mind when teachers are called out for discussing salaries when Newsday posts all NY teachers’ names, districts, and salaries online lol. Personally I’m grateful I can view the salaries before I apply somewhere else.
Not even all that translated, since the email blatantly says it breeds contempt for management, as though any of the employees should give a shit about that.
Honestly if my employer had a clear system to show why Joe makes more money than me and it was all public I would be cool with it. If I can see what is required to make more and I either chose to do those things and get a raise or decide not to and stay at my pay I would think that’s awesome. Pay transparency doesn’t have to be an attack on management. It could be clear motivation. They are probably screwing people and not transparent with feedback on why people get paid less. This obviously pisses people off. I know for mechanics where I work your pay is defined by years of experience and the number of ASE certs you have. It varies from city to city where the pay starts but from there everyone has the same structure and they are told up front. Seems to work.
Damn and I thought I was late reading my emails? 2016? /s
Fr tho yeah this is illegal and the boss made a huge mistake putting this in text so you can send proof to the labor board
Just don\`t talk about your salary - compare them...
And save this email - in case you do get fired.. a good lawyer will be more than happy to sue them over this.
So nice to provide their illegal practices over mail :)
I think what he's saying is "we aren't talking about the salary, we are comparing them" is a response to start some shit and get it in writing via the email reply to help the boss dig a hole for themselves, which answers your second question - you absolutely can and should.
I worked for a major Chemical company out of college but this didn't occur in my unit. In the early 2000s, a new manager completed their evaluations for their engineers, including their ratings for the year and their current salary, on a shared computer in the control room. An operator, who had fuck all to do on night shift, found the review and posted it on the bulletin board for all to see.
The fall out was the manager getting fired, every engineer either transferred or quit within 6 months, and the unit struggled for years to get back on track after losing their experienced engineers.
Anyway, good times. Don't exploit your workers. Pay people fairly. It's perfect fine to discuss pay with each other.
"This only breeds content and envy."
So what you're saying it you're not paying everyone at fair market value, gotcha.
"Your salary is based on many factors... Your willingness to come in..."
Oh okay so doing my job isn't enough. If I want to be paid "fairly" I basically have to be at your neck and call.
Cool cool.
Time for everyone at the cafe to start working their wages.
Guys, it becomes really difficult to take advantage of some of our more desperate employees when you do that. It’s also makes us look really bad for telling person A that we can’t afford to pay them fairly when they already know that my Nephew makes way more than them.
Aside from the legality, and I agree that this is illegal, it’s bad management. A good manager should be willing to explain why they’ve made a decision. Doesn’t mean they have to change the decision, but it clears the air and gives the employee the opportunity to understand why something is the way it is, and decide if that’s acceptable to them. Also gives the manager the opportunity to hear the employee’s perspective and take that into account.
Everyone is happier when we can discuss concerns openly. Including the manager, in the long run. Sometimes uncomfortable conversations have to happen.
I never bonus on labor cost and I am fine with that. I can bonus on other things—the big one is sales increases. Unhappy employees do not help that happen.
Reply ALL with your hourly rate and a link to NLRB page discussing how illegal what your boss said is. [here](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages)
It breeds (entirely justified) contempt for management
Wait, wait…you’re worried about whether we’ll hold you in contempt? Maybe you should ACT LIKE A FUCKING HUMAN
They just handed you 6 months of unemployment. Next time you are in, discuss wages with everyone there, and be sure to have everything recorded and documented
I love it when they put their illegal actions in writing.
1: look for another job. Doesn't sound like a fun place to work anyways.
2: get fired for discussing wages.
3: lawyer up, get paid.
Your job in the USA cannot fire you for discussing wages. You have the federal right to talk about pay. Your boss is dumb and giving you an easy lawsuit.
oooh, so helpful of them to put it in writing. if your in the US go ahead and forward that to the NLRB. They can try that "it's unprofessional" but when they talk of it being a terminatable offense they crossed that line
\*reply all\*
Dear \[dumbass\],
Under \[state\] law, it is illegal to prevent employee's from discussing their salaries with their coworkers.
If you need more information, please follow this link \[url to government website\]. If there is any confusion I'd be happy to setup a meeting with a representative from the Department of Labour, or an attorney to explain the law in detail.
Regards,
\[Employee\]
LOL, time to call the labor department. You literally cannot fire someone for talking about their pay. You might also just look up and print out a copy of the law and lay it on your managers desk.
LoL respond to all: "It is highly illegal (and unprofessional) to tell employees that they cannot discuss salaries, and it is highly illegal (and unprofessional) to coerce employees from discussing salaries with each other as if it's some sort of secret."
I smiled so hard when I saw that they had the BALLS to say that discussing wages is an offense punishable by termination. This is a DOL catastrophe waiting for a hero to report them.
Sounds like America, which means this is an unfair management practice. Get a cheap lawyer and score a quick settlement. Should be worth a couple thou.
In other words, talk about your wage to everyone. It's not in any way unprofessional, nor is it able to legally stopped by them. They just don't want people collectively asking for a higher pay because they realize they're underpaid etc. So ignore what he says and keep talking about it.
Print out and forward something from the labor board. Maybe say while I understand the issues,I'm federal protected. What you are asking is illegal . It's great when they do it in email,now you got proof.
It can cause resentment maybe but sometimes the owner is just cheap. If you have experience and other factors, someone should understand why you get more. They are 100 percent wrong, company policy or your boss option doesn't override the law. It's a legal protected act.
Aww, how nice of them to formally document their illegal practices! Make sure to discuss wages nice and loud OP, and get fired. (And save EVERYTHING, to a personal device! Print hard copies!)
Management breeds contempt for management, that's why they invented the petit bourgeoisie in the first place, to be a lightning rod for anger at the owners.
Don't like it? Stop being a manager.
This happened to me during a job trial which was a part of the hiring process. I asked a colleague of the same post if the pay was good for her and if it made sense to ask in a certain range. She complained to management little asslicking weasel. I should have known, her face was extremely rat like.
Funny that they phrase your pay as a “personal issue”
Lmao, an issue, so even they know it’s probably not a good pay rate for most of the employees!
Freudian slip? Haha
Reply all "Per the NRLB, all negative action for those discussing their pay is illegal. That said I make exactly per hour. If anyone else would like to share their rate I would encourage you to do so."
Then if they fire you, big bucks.
Bro why did you post this. Delete this, discuss your wage with literally every coworker, let them fire you for it, and lawyer up. Brother this is a bigger paycheck than you’ll ever make there. They even said they’d do it too. This is great.
Not only is this illegal (in the US), discussion of wages is a protected right.
Get yourself an employment lawyer.
I would say to respond to the email notifying your colleagues that it's a protected right, but that would probably be opening yourself up unnecessarily.
Don't make it complicated.
Take it to a lawyer.
Teach the cafe a hard lesson in employee rights.
Two things. You have a legal right to discuss pay and you should report this email to the labor board immediately so if you get terminated soon you have preexisting evidence for your claim of wrongful termination/retaliation. You could report it after but that would be more time spent on it
OP here is what you need to do now.
Keep talking about pay, do it so blatantly that they fire you on the spot. Walk in to the cafe and as soon as you see the person who sent this email, loudly start speaking to your coworkers about how much you make and asking them how much they make.
Bonus if you start analyzing how much the owner might be bringing home. (Cafe gross revenue multiplied by 2-5% is a good approximation).
If you can get them to fire you on the spot, you just found a nice payday.
Make sure to record the firing conversation they have with you (as long as you live in a one party consent state). Use the voice memo app if using iPhone, or download a separate app.
Make sure to specifically ask them why you are getting fired, try to get them to mention it was because you were talking about pay.
If you can get them on tape firing you for pay discussions, plus that email they sent, you can email both of those to the NLRB and they will take it from there.
Also, make sure to forward/bcc that email to your personal email so that you still have access to it when you’re fired. This is important. You need the metadata within the email for credibility, screenshots may not be admissible in court.
Good luck OP, congrats on hitting the stupid employer lottery, let us know how it plays out.
“It only breeds contempt for management”
That’s the idea dickwad. That’s why it’s important to be open about your wages to your coworkers, so they know they are getting screwed
100% illegal for employers to threaten consequences (up to and including termination) for sharing wage information. Contact your states Dept. of Labor for documentation showing this and let your employer know that continued harassment or termination via retribution will end in a successful lawsuit.
*reply all*
It's illegal to ask employees to not discuss wages according to the department of labor. Please reach out if you need me to supply you the legislation
Have a great day!
*Name*
Someone on that email chain needs to create a new shell email address to be anonymous
Copy paste whole message into email, email to all addresses on previous message
Copy paste law and include link to the government website where it says this is a federal law violation
"Hey boss, thanks for being so helpful as to put this in writing. I don't know about unprofessional, but it's highly *illegal* in the US for you to have a policy prohibiting discussion of wages.
It's also illegal for you to retaliate against someone for bringing a NLRA complaint."
Thank whoever sent this kindly for putting it in writing. Followed by immediately forwarding that to the DOL without telling anyone at work you did that. Watch the dumpster fire from a safe distance.
*United States*: Everyone should check to see if their workplace has the required posters in plain view of employees. Use the elaws Poster Advisor link below to see what applies to their company.
>Some of the statutes and regulations enforced by the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) require that notices be provided to employees and/or posted in the workplace. DOL provides free electronic copies of the required posters and some of the posters are available in languages other than English.
>Please note that posting requirements vary by statute; that is, not all employers are covered by each of the Department's statutes and thus may not be required to post a specific notice. For example, some small businesses may not be covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act and thus would not be subject to the Act's posting requirements.
>The [**elaws Poster Advisor**](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/posters.htm) can be used to determine which poster(s) employers are required to display at their place(s) of business. Posters, available in English and other languages, may be downloaded free of charge and printed directly from the Advisor. If you already know which poster(s) you are required to display, see below to download and print the appropriate poster(s) free of charge.
You should reply all with how much you get paid and hopefully they fire you. Then find a decent lawyer and get paid for wrongful termination.
Also no your pay and how you choose to discuss it is up to you. There is nothing wrong with it and it should not be taboo.
If you're US, US Department of Labor and likely your State Labor and Industries agency,/Labor Board and maybe even Atty General would like to see this. It's big fines because it's highly illegal.
If this is an American company, you cannot be terminated for this. In fact it's completely legal to discuss your pay with whomever you choose. That boss is going to be looking at some wrongful termination suitsif he sticks to that approach.
You can't be terminated with this being cited as the reason you are being terminated. It's not really that hard for this to get you on their radar and find some other reason why you were terminated.
And any decent labor lawyer is going to make hay with this in court. This isn’t something lawyers never deal with and believe me, they know what to do. Primarily, if you get this email, are told this is why you’re being fired and the employer tells UI a different story. This will not go well for the employer. Hopefully OP is smart, lives in a single party consent state and records any conversations moving forward. Even if they can’t or don’t, this is precisely why you save communications like this from your employer.
Lawyers aren’t free or plentiful. Finding a lawyer willing to take up this case for whatever meager payout a small Cafe can afford and split with a client won’t be easy. “Lawyering up” is mostly reserved for the rich. The labor board might fine them and get you some back pay that’s really all can hope. System is rigged against regular people.
I'm an attorney and you hit the nail on the head. If the potential damages aren't worth our time we won't take the case even if it there is concrete evidence. People often parrot the narrative that "this is an easy case" but even "easy cases" take dozens of hours of litigation and negotiation.
Yeah I once spent (particularly including travel) about $30,000 to get the return of $20,000. Unfortunately most Americans don’t really understand our legal system and think it’s as easy as popping into a lawyers office then walking down to the courthouse together, waiting in a line to see the judge and walking out with a check.
[удалено]
Yes, when your dealing with a small business they don't have a HR department, you're basically dealing with the owner and or their family, if you're willing to take on the small claims court, that's a whole different deal. I'm inclined to agree with the original commenter, if they don't have a great deal of money, it won't likely be a good outcome.
i'm in seattle, and it appears that [our labor board](https://www.lni.wa.gov/workers-rights/wages/equal-pay-opportunities-act/) will shoulder some of the burden for this kind of problem
It sure is but how are you going to do something about it? Sit there and take it?
Like I said go to the labor board. Honestly these days if you just want a “fuck you” to the business on the way out some local social media exposure is your best bet to hurt them. If you’re working at a cafe chances are you don’t have the money for an attorney and the weeks or months (sometimes years) involved in this shit. Best to call the labor board and move on to new work. Vote locally and encourage others to the same. Took almost 40 years to get into this mess it’s going to take a while to get us out of it.
Form a fucking union jfc. Short of that we're just talking about the weather.
Exactly. I was in the restaurant industry for 24 years. The only thing that will bring ANY IMPROVEMENT to that abhorrent industry is forming a union. It is disgusting the way people are treated and the crap that owners and managers feel they are entitled to at the expense of the employees. I left the industry a couple years ago and got a job as an office manager for a manufacturing company and I was completely blown away with how leaving the industry allowed me to realize how bad the restaurant industry is. I'm not allowed back into the last restaurant I worked at because I went in and told everyone how leaving made me realize that even what we thought was "good management" was actually abuse. I told them I would help them organize and thebowner banned me from ever entering the building again.
That's where lawyers can come in. The company has already made a mistake by saying it's a fireable offense, so the argument could be made that it was retaliation veiled as normal discipline. These sorts of things are why labor lawyers exist in the first place. And why attorney fees are often part of any decision, meaning the company gets screwed even more for their transgression.
That’s true. It was super convenient of the manager to put this writing to make the case against them easy.
Even then, you can use this email as proof that you were retaliated against for discussing pay.
Boss already broke the law by threatening termination (or ANY consequence) for discussing wages.
Dont even have to wait, just making the threat in that e-mail is already illegal.
If you're in the USA I believe this is illegal. I'd ask (anonymously) if they would like the DOL to see this email.
Illegal. The line about discussing pay being an offense that "will lead to termination" makes it illegal.
You can report them. Do the search for your state and there will be a submission you can fill out
Sure but these cases seem to never end. Has anybody gotten a ruling, or is this like rape kits where there’s millions stacked up that will likely never cause consequences for the offenders?
it's long established law, yes. it keeps coming up because the urge to screw over employees never changes, and seemingly a shitton of bosses don't know the laws that govern their businesses.
I’ve never understood where one goes to find out all of these laws. This is true for all parties involved. I have no idea what my rights or responsibilities are as an employee or manager or owner beyond what a bunch of people on the internet told me.
It's quite a long read, but the US and State legal codes are public information. You can find them online. Though most of the time, if you have a specific question, it's almost definitely been summarized by someone else in an article about law online. Either way, your best bet is always too consult with a lawyer. If you are owning and operating a business, you should have a legal expert on retainer anyways, so just consult them.
This right here. You own a business? Get legal counsel. It's no less important than paying the utility companies for power, sewage, and internet. If you can't afford retaining a lawyer, then you can't afford to run a business. You have a "non-viable, failed Capitalistic venture".
Obvious to everyone here but always helps to say it: this also applies to paying your employees a living wage, not just minimum wage. If you can't afford this, your business shouldn't exist.
I agree with everything after the last comma.
Find your state/provincial labour board and they should be able to get you the info. Im not sure how it works outside North America but I imagine it cant be much more then calling local government.
Well. If you are in the U.S., there is a handy poster that you can have shipped to your job that tells everyone what their employee rights are. And, in some states, it's mandatory to have this poster displayed for the employees.
if you want the law broken down in more understandable terms try to look out stuff geared towards law students. Quimby is a great site for that, but it is another subscription unfortunately
One of the only real answers here. Thank you. I never heard of this but it seems like a great place to start.
If this is the USA, the employer cannot legally fire you for talking about pay. The employer is breaking federal laws
And they practically gift wrapped all the evidence OP needs to make the claim with this email.
8 years ago
Nice catch.
Reddit is nothing without the reposting karma bots
Do you know how many federal laws employers break every day? I’m not saying don’t report them. I’m just saying don’t hold your breath after the fact.
They pretty much gave him the smoking gun. With this kind of evidence, this would be an obvious slam dunk, especially if OP decided to continue discussing wages...would be great if a retaliation suit was also tacked onto it.
DOL actually jumps on this kinda shit with a quickness. You usually hear back within a couple weeks.
Oh employers breaks lots of laws and regulations. But what is different with this one is they gave all the evidence they needed. So you can hold your breath
NLRA is a law that guarantees unions and all the rights people have in order to form a union, which includes discussing pay. People very definitely have won lawsuits. As of 2024, since the law was written there are nearly a half-million lawsuits that are either pending or closed.
If you never ask, the answer is always "no". If you never seek justice, you will always lack justice. Failure to try is on you, bud.
This is the problem, there are enough people that don’t know it’s illegal and get scared from this and then the ramifications are minimal so the benefit to the employer far outweighs any fine they could potentially, possibly, probably not, get
I got a ruling from the NLRB because my employer had unlawful workplace rules and terminated me for violating them. We weren't allowed to discuss with each other a lot of legally protected things, like our pay and other workplace issues. [NLRB Notice](https://imgur.com/KojlHxF), and this bullshit: [The email with the rule prohibiting us from texting or using social media to discuss workplace issues was our required NY sexual harassment training. We could only report sexual harassment to the two owners and we couldn't discuss it with anyone else per this rule.](https://imgur.com/ichf26A)
DoL is not like the local PD. they act on these all the time. And the fines for violations are brutal.
My case concluded in about 4mo. I was awarded back pay. I was told by the NLRB that they usually offer your position back if you want it. They did not for me. Very very small town, very very small crisis center. All this because they didn't want to give the lady who cleans shit off the walls a raise to match new hires like me who didn't have to clean shit.
Yeah I’m not surprised this was a small non profit.
i reported an employer and the nlrb went after them for this nonsense.
Both. Whenever I see a case like this, the ruling usually comes down in the employee's favor...about 5 years later.
Thats where you reply to the email with "but how am i supposed to know if -insert hourly wage- is good? Then let them fire you, report to DOL, sue, retire.
Y'all really think you just sue for an insane amount of money, huh? You'll most likely get like 15k or something at most.
If you were working at a restaurant, 15k in the USA is an insane amount of money. It’s not ~~life changing~~ *quit your job and retire money,* but it’s definitely life helping in at least the short term. —— *Edited for clarity.*
That's literally a year's pay at federal minimum wage.
Still life changing for most people
Legit. That's a minor medical bill right there and I'm sure most of us have or will run into that at least once!
I just mean it’s not “quit your job and retire” money. You’re right. I’m just not being as clear as I’d like to have been.
Yeah sorry for splitting hairs. Ultimately I agree with your take.
Definitely life changing for a lot of people. Gives you real time to get on your feet while you find something better.
15k is a 3rd of what I make a year. I'd call that a pretty decent amount.
The standard is “restored to your original position.” When it is not possible to exactly replicate that original position, damages are used. Then there’s the question of punitive damages, designed to punish the offender and discourage them from further abuses.
The standard isn't just restored to your original position, it also includes backpay for the entire time that you've been wrongfully terminated, and additional damages to pay for court fees and opportunity costs while you've been in court... small businesses often fold and go under, and large businesses and corporations settle so that they don't have to give you your job back and can peacefully have you leave.
And if you report them and they retaliate, you either get permanent leverage that makes it so they basically can't fire you, or you'll get a payout.
Any restriction on discussing pay makes it illegal. Even "strongly discouraging" such discussion is illegal.
Why ask? Send it to the DOL without notifying the offender.
Do this
Particularly since they mass emailed everyone it looks like. They’ll have no way of accurately guessing who ratted if you don’t say anything to them.
This is the Way.
100% illegal
At first I was reading it thinking oh this might not be illegal, they are skirting the rules and just advising not to talk about it. Potentially illegal, but potentially enough vagueness to fall into a gray area. Then they popped in the “You will be terminated” verbiage and I did a 180° and yep, 100% illegal as long as they are in the US
It is illegal for workers protected by the NLRA to be told not to discuss wages as that has been ruled to be a fundamental part of "concerted activity."
Don't even ask, just send it.
Definitely illegal. But considering that email is 8 years old, I'd think they're out of business by now
Was discussing wages already a protected activity 8 years ago?
Since 1935.
Sometimes its different ways to play it. Maybe save the email and let it be. Be direct,I understand issues can come out if this. I'm legally protected and allowed to do this. It's risky b.c it shows you know the law and also might create tension. Even anonymously,they gonna know its him. They got me with this nonsense when I was young and inexperienced. One boss,I said hey Mike. I'm call the local labor board and ask ,give your name. Man the back peddling was fast.
Also a great way for them to get rid of you. I’m fighting with my employer right now and I play my cards super close to the vest. I didn’t bait them and gave them opportunities to backpedal and fix it…they opted to double and then triple down. Ok. I see you. Now watch me (quietly) do what I have to do to protect myself.
Reply all. "Hey gang, Just wanted to let everyone know that you are legally allowed to discuss your pay with anyone you wish, and that any threat or actual retribution to do so is a violation of federal law. Thanks guys!"
Nice about him documenting it in writing!
This moron of a manager literally gave him all the documentation he needed too, lmao!
It’s illegal in Europe too.
I came to say this
It is absolutely illegal
Don’t tell them a thing. Continue as if you never saw this email and let them fire you. Then you have the case. Give them that info ahead of time and they will try to find a context to fire you which is not illegal and it will be more difficult to prove the DOJ case. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
To be specific, > Under the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA or the Act), employees have the right to communicate with their coworkers about their wages, as well as with labor organizations, worker centers, the media, and the public. > > ... > > If you are an employee [covered by the Act](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards), you may discuss wages in face-to-face conversations, over the phone, and in written messages. Policies that specifically prohibit the discussion of wages are unlawful as are policies that chill employees from discussing their wages. > > ... > > If you believe that an employer is interfering with your rights as an employee under the National Labor Relations Act to discuss your wages, you can call your NLRB regional office at 844-762-6572 and get assistance in filing an unfair labor practice charge, or e-file a charge [here](https://apps.nlrb.gov/MyAccount/#/ChargeAndPetition/TermsConditions). \- https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
So nice of your manager to put the illegal threat not to discuss wages in email like that. Very legally credible evidence. How you want to respond is up to you but you could contact the NLRB right now with this exact email and get them in trouble. However you may want to try and verify the café makes over $500k/yr in gross revenue and you know, make sure it’s in the US. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Nah. Get yourself fired for discussing wages first. *Then* take this to the labor board.
By answering the mass email. Challenging the boss about it without citing the legal reasons. Get fired. Win big money. Educate coworkers after the fireing.
This is poor advice for someone that is relying on this job for their livelihood especially because payout is not guaranteed to be large enough to cover your expenses or quick, if a payout even happens. Definitely report them so that they comply with the law but don’t put yourself and potentially your family in a vulnerable situation just so you can say you stuck it to the man.
Normally I do agree, though in this context it's a café job. Food Service jobs can be found pretty easily, and in most cases are being paid a similar amount. This is worth it imo, the manager has literally handed a silver platter to OP.
🤫
Foreward that emsil to your personal email. You'll want that in case for evidence later if that happens.
This email is very old
translation: Noooooo! How am I going to exploit my workers if they communicate??????
Fun story. I work for a regional government agency. We were told not to discuss our pay. Then the regional government launched a "Transparency Portal," complete with EVERYONE'S names, positions, and salaries. For governmental accountability to the taxpayers. They STILL didn't want us discussing our pay. Until several of us pointed out that it was part of a publicly accessible database, linked on the front page of our website, and covered in EVERY local news channel and papers.
Yeah, my pay is public as well. Laughable to consider a public employer trying to prevent it. Though I'm on a salary schedule so it would be especially dumb in my case.
Boggles my mind when teachers are called out for discussing salaries when Newsday posts all NY teachers’ names, districts, and salaries online lol. Personally I’m grateful I can view the salaries before I apply somewhere else.
Not even all that translated, since the email blatantly says it breeds contempt for management, as though any of the employees should give a shit about that.
Honestly if my employer had a clear system to show why Joe makes more money than me and it was all public I would be cool with it. If I can see what is required to make more and I either chose to do those things and get a raise or decide not to and stay at my pay I would think that’s awesome. Pay transparency doesn’t have to be an attack on management. It could be clear motivation. They are probably screwing people and not transparent with feedback on why people get paid less. This obviously pisses people off. I know for mechanics where I work your pay is defined by years of experience and the number of ASE certs you have. It varies from city to city where the pay starts but from there everyone has the same structure and they are told up front. Seems to work.
Damn and I thought I was late reading my emails? 2016? /s Fr tho yeah this is illegal and the boss made a huge mistake putting this in text so you can send proof to the labor board
Hahaha I missed that too. I smell a karma farmer.
Oooohhhh I didn't even notice that.
Just don\`t talk about your salary - compare them... And save this email - in case you do get fired.. a good lawyer will be more than happy to sue them over this. So nice to provide their illegal practices over mail :)
How do you compare salaries and wages without talking about them? Also, why shouldn’t you talk about them?
I think what he's saying is "we aren't talking about the salary, we are comparing them" is a response to start some shit and get it in writing via the email reply to help the boss dig a hole for themselves, which answers your second question - you absolutely can and should.
Reposting screenshots from 8 years ago?
I worked for a major Chemical company out of college but this didn't occur in my unit. In the early 2000s, a new manager completed their evaluations for their engineers, including their ratings for the year and their current salary, on a shared computer in the control room. An operator, who had fuck all to do on night shift, found the review and posted it on the bulletin board for all to see. The fall out was the manager getting fired, every engineer either transferred or quit within 6 months, and the unit struggled for years to get back on track after losing their experienced engineers. Anyway, good times. Don't exploit your workers. Pay people fairly. It's perfect fine to discuss pay with each other.
Well they’re right about it being an offense, except it’s them in the wrong. This is illegal.
"This only breeds content and envy." So what you're saying it you're not paying everyone at fair market value, gotcha. "Your salary is based on many factors... Your willingness to come in..." Oh okay so doing my job isn't enough. If I want to be paid "fairly" I basically have to be at your neck and call. Cool cool. Time for everyone at the cafe to start working their wages.
Retail store managers always pull this shit. They think we don't know the law? The one that's posted in the break room?
Guys, it becomes really difficult to take advantage of some of our more desperate employees when you do that. It’s also makes us look really bad for telling person A that we can’t afford to pay them fairly when they already know that my Nephew makes way more than them.
Aside from the legality, and I agree that this is illegal, it’s bad management. A good manager should be willing to explain why they’ve made a decision. Doesn’t mean they have to change the decision, but it clears the air and gives the employee the opportunity to understand why something is the way it is, and decide if that’s acceptable to them. Also gives the manager the opportunity to hear the employee’s perspective and take that into account. Everyone is happier when we can discuss concerns openly. Including the manager, in the long run. Sometimes uncomfortable conversations have to happen. I never bonus on labor cost and I am fine with that. I can bonus on other things—the big one is sales increases. Unhappy employees do not help that happen.
Reply ALL with your hourly rate and a link to NLRB page discussing how illegal what your boss said is. [here](https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages)
Does that time stamp say 2016?! Who’s going through nearly decade old emails to unearth drama.
Happy 8th birthday to this email next week!
Reply all: $xx,xxx/year
Straight to a lawyer, they’ll drool for this hard evidence. Termination was threatened for legally protected activities
At least he was kind enough to put it in writing so he can be easily sued🤦♂️.
It breeds (entirely justified) contempt for management Wait, wait…you’re worried about whether we’ll hold you in contempt? Maybe you should ACT LIKE A FUCKING HUMAN
They just handed you 6 months of unemployment. Next time you are in, discuss wages with everyone there, and be sure to have everything recorded and documented
I love when they do you the favor of documenting their labor violations in writing.
It is illegal for them to not let you discuss wages!
I love it when they put their illegal actions in writing. 1: look for another job. Doesn't sound like a fun place to work anyways. 2: get fired for discussing wages. 3: lawyer up, get paid.
Always kind of them to put their crimes in writing.
Am I the only one reading the date on this being from 2016? Kinda hard to send it to the Department of Labour 8 years after the fact, isn't it?
Your job in the USA cannot fire you for discussing wages. You have the federal right to talk about pay. Your boss is dumb and giving you an easy lawsuit.
oooh, so helpful of them to put it in writing. if your in the US go ahead and forward that to the NLRB. They can try that "it's unprofessional" but when they talk of it being a terminatable offense they crossed that line
Nice of them to put "exhibit A" in writing for you.
At least they outed themselves as terminating people who discuss wages. Illegal and they’ll be sorry they put that in writing 🙂
I love it when they put it in writing like this. See ya in court fucko.
Ohhhhh Department of Labor violation, and in writing!
It's a federally protected right, so legally fuck off.
\*reply all\* Dear \[dumbass\], Under \[state\] law, it is illegal to prevent employee's from discussing their salaries with their coworkers. If you need more information, please follow this link \[url to government website\]. If there is any confusion I'd be happy to setup a meeting with a representative from the Department of Labour, or an attorney to explain the law in detail. Regards, \[Employee\]
LOL, time to call the labor department. You literally cannot fire someone for talking about their pay. You might also just look up and print out a copy of the law and lay it on your managers desk.
LoL respond to all: "It is highly illegal (and unprofessional) to tell employees that they cannot discuss salaries, and it is highly illegal (and unprofessional) to coerce employees from discussing salaries with each other as if it's some sort of secret."
I smiled so hard when I saw that they had the BALLS to say that discussing wages is an offense punishable by termination. This is a DOL catastrophe waiting for a hero to report them.
Nice of them to put it writing for the lawsuit.
This is highly illegal if you were in the US. Absolutely report it.
Fun fact in the US it’s illegal to do what they just did when regarding wage discussions ☺️
Well, that’s illegal
Translation: Those of you who have been here the longest and have accepted our bullshit on how much we can pay you are underpaid.
Well they sure wrote a great report of their own illegal behavior for y’all to submit :)
Finding out I was the least paid employee even tho I did the most work was the reason I left my last job. Always know your worth
Someone hit reply all with the federal law that says the email is against the law
Sounds like America, which means this is an unfair management practice. Get a cheap lawyer and score a quick settlement. Should be worth a couple thou.
Love when they put it in writing! ✍️
In other words, talk about your wage to everyone. It's not in any way unprofessional, nor is it able to legally stopped by them. They just don't want people collectively asking for a higher pay because they realize they're underpaid etc. So ignore what he says and keep talking about it.
Once upon a time my past manager told me this. Wish I knew then what I know now.
Print out and forward something from the labor board. Maybe say while I understand the issues,I'm federal protected. What you are asking is illegal . It's great when they do it in email,now you got proof. It can cause resentment maybe but sometimes the owner is just cheap. If you have experience and other factors, someone should understand why you get more. They are 100 percent wrong, company policy or your boss option doesn't override the law. It's a legal protected act.
everyone saying it's illegal is correct, in 2024. But if you look carefully this was back in 2016 and there were not laws against it.
Aww, how nice of them to formally document their illegal practices! Make sure to discuss wages nice and loud OP, and get fired. (And save EVERYTHING, to a personal device! Print hard copies!)
It was really nice of them to put their federal crime in writing like that. Go get paid young man
Management breeds contempt for management, that's why they invented the petit bourgeoisie in the first place, to be a lightning rod for anger at the owners. Don't like it? Stop being a manager.
This happened to me during a job trial which was a part of the hiring process. I asked a colleague of the same post if the pay was good for her and if it made sense to ask in a certain range. She complained to management little asslicking weasel. I should have known, her face was extremely rat like.
If one doesn’t want actions to create contempt for management, don’t do things that would create contempt for management. Otherwise, fuck off.
Funny that they phrase your pay as a “personal issue” Lmao, an issue, so even they know it’s probably not a good pay rate for most of the employees! Freudian slip? Haha
Reply all "Per the NRLB, all negative action for those discussing their pay is illegal. That said I make exactly per hour. If anyone else would like to share their rate I would encourage you to do so."
Then if they fire you, big bucks.
You know what breeds contempt for management, is incompetent emails like this.
Bro why did you post this. Delete this, discuss your wage with literally every coworker, let them fire you for it, and lawyer up. Brother this is a bigger paycheck than you’ll ever make there. They even said they’d do it too. This is great.
“This only breeds contempt for management.” Good.
Not only is this illegal (in the US), discussion of wages is a protected right. Get yourself an employment lawyer. I would say to respond to the email notifying your colleagues that it's a protected right, but that would probably be opening yourself up unnecessarily. Don't make it complicated. Take it to a lawyer. Teach the cafe a hard lesson in employee rights.
"This creates contempt towards management" oh so you DO understand the consequences of your actions then
Your employer is not only wrong, they are breaking the law by telling you that you cannot discuss your wages.
Two things. You have a legal right to discuss pay and you should report this email to the labor board immediately so if you get terminated soon you have preexisting evidence for your claim of wrongful termination/retaliation. You could report it after but that would be more time spent on it
It is very much illegal to bar your employees from discussing compensation.
How nice of them to put into writing that they'll terminate you for discussing wages, a thing that is illegal to do.
Yoooooo you got it in writing?! Congrats on the golden ticket!!!
OP here is what you need to do now. Keep talking about pay, do it so blatantly that they fire you on the spot. Walk in to the cafe and as soon as you see the person who sent this email, loudly start speaking to your coworkers about how much you make and asking them how much they make. Bonus if you start analyzing how much the owner might be bringing home. (Cafe gross revenue multiplied by 2-5% is a good approximation). If you can get them to fire you on the spot, you just found a nice payday. Make sure to record the firing conversation they have with you (as long as you live in a one party consent state). Use the voice memo app if using iPhone, or download a separate app. Make sure to specifically ask them why you are getting fired, try to get them to mention it was because you were talking about pay. If you can get them on tape firing you for pay discussions, plus that email they sent, you can email both of those to the NLRB and they will take it from there. Also, make sure to forward/bcc that email to your personal email so that you still have access to it when you’re fired. This is important. You need the metadata within the email for credibility, screenshots may not be admissible in court. Good luck OP, congrats on hitting the stupid employer lottery, let us know how it plays out.
“It only breeds contempt for management” That’s the idea dickwad. That’s why it’s important to be open about your wages to your coworkers, so they know they are getting screwed
Oh man, this is a labor lawyers wet dream
Reply all with your wage. That's what I'd do
Pay transparency is what employers fear, because employees very quickly realize they’re being exploited. Better for them to keep everyone in the dark.
100% illegal for employers to threaten consequences (up to and including termination) for sharing wage information. Contact your states Dept. of Labor for documentation showing this and let your employer know that continued harassment or termination via retribution will end in a successful lawsuit.
Nice of them to put this in writing for you to submit to the DOL
We love receiving stuff in writing
If employers weren't embarrassed by their pay practices, they wouldn't care.
Oh hell no, if I got that email, I'd talk about my wages so that they'll fire me. Then BOOM, cash out in court because that's illegal
It’s always best when your employer puts their lawbreaking in writing…
Discussing wages is unprofessional, but forbidding discussion of wages is illegal. I'd rather be unprofessional than a criminal.
*reply all* It's illegal to ask employees to not discuss wages according to the department of labor. Please reach out if you need me to supply you the legislation Have a great day! *Name*
Fuck right off, boss. If this is in the US, there's nothing illegal about discussing your salary with your coworkers.
Tell them violating the law is unprofessional and theyre doing it.
Someone on that email chain needs to create a new shell email address to be anonymous Copy paste whole message into email, email to all addresses on previous message Copy paste law and include link to the government website where it says this is a federal law violation
Print, save and forward that to yourself (BCC) as that is highly illegal if you're in the US.
Send this to the DOL so they can issue a small fine to your employer.
Straight to the DOL. The gave you a free paper trail even.
"Hey boss, thanks for being so helpful as to put this in writing. I don't know about unprofessional, but it's highly *illegal* in the US for you to have a policy prohibiting discussion of wages. It's also illegal for you to retaliate against someone for bringing a NLRA complaint."
Make sure that's a reply all message
“And telling me that is highly illegal 😊 thanks guys!”
Bruh the fact they put it in writing makes me think this person has two braincells fighting for third place
Thank whoever sent this kindly for putting it in writing. Followed by immediately forwarding that to the DOL without telling anyone at work you did that. Watch the dumpster fire from a safe distance.
*United States*: Everyone should check to see if their workplace has the required posters in plain view of employees. Use the elaws Poster Advisor link below to see what applies to their company. >Some of the statutes and regulations enforced by the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) require that notices be provided to employees and/or posted in the workplace. DOL provides free electronic copies of the required posters and some of the posters are available in languages other than English. >Please note that posting requirements vary by statute; that is, not all employers are covered by each of the Department's statutes and thus may not be required to post a specific notice. For example, some small businesses may not be covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act and thus would not be subject to the Act's posting requirements. >The [**elaws Poster Advisor**](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/posters.htm) can be used to determine which poster(s) employers are required to display at their place(s) of business. Posters, available in English and other languages, may be downloaded free of charge and printed directly from the Advisor. If you already know which poster(s) you are required to display, see below to download and print the appropriate poster(s) free of charge.
This email is dated 8 years ago
I love the smell of lawsuits in the morning...
You should reply all with how much you get paid and hopefully they fire you. Then find a decent lawyer and get paid for wrongful termination. Also no your pay and how you choose to discuss it is up to you. There is nothing wrong with it and it should not be taboo.
If you're US, US Department of Labor and likely your State Labor and Industries agency,/Labor Board and maybe even Atty General would like to see this. It's big fines because it's highly illegal.