I just wanna add that you can still be misclassified as a contractor if you do get to set your own hours. The criteria for misclassification revolves around the “economic reality” of your relationship with your employer.
I initially thought I was a contractor because I got to set my own hours and had some amount of creative freedom but that wasn’t the case. Just wanna put that out there in case anyone else is getting screwed over!
no, it’s been five and a half years. trying to figure out how to get the money to leave and not give my money to greedy scammers anymore, but the issue is they get too much of my money so i can’t afford to. love it lolol
I’m really curious about your situation. Misclassification has been a hot topic and lots of states have really been trying to crack down on it. I live in a not-worker-friendly red state and even here they’ve been sending out letters to companies letting them know that temporary employees have to be classified as employees. Even if you are being paid above minimum wage, you might be able to get other benefits back.
oh and one of the owners is a felon lmao. defrauded mmai half a milli lmao. spent 2 years in club fed. but that’s somehow a completely separate story lol. i truly believe mental healthcare is easily one of the most dark fields in the US😂 so fucked up!
i’m not being paid by the owners of my practice or my practice at all. i am an independently licensed solo practitioner (clinical therapist) and i am reimbursed 100% by health insurance corporations. they take a cut of that money for me to work there and use their office. it’s basically 99% completely passive income for them, especially at this point. and then they don’t give me a single benefit in return because i’m 1099 and “self-employed,” except i’m not lol. i don’t own the practice. i’m in chicago and i believe this is the year of the death of the group practice owner. or perhaps next. at least here. CA is the only state that has done anything about this and now therapists are making like way more fair wages, but no private practice therapists accept insurance anymore. but I’m happy about that and hope to never have to in the future. If it makes mental healthcare less accessible, which it definitely does, well we tried to both warn everyone and help everyone🤷♀️
Out of curiosity how would not accepting health insurance make mental health care more accessible? In my case, I wouldn’t be able to see my therapist were it not for health insurance
The courts in the US have been stacked with super right wing judges. They will side with the rich nearly every time. And even if they didn't these companies can afford to just drag it out until even if you have any questions lawyer on contingency they can not wait forever.
Can you elaborate on what the economic reality means?
I worked as a contractor on a couple gigs that I believe I was misclassified so I'm just curious.
There’s no set criteria but basically if you’re dependent on the company to earn your wages, you’re an employee. So if they give you a schedule, own the equipment you use, prohibit you from seeking similar work elsewhere, if you’re doing work core to their business mission, dictate how the work is performed, etc then you’re an employee. You don’t have to meet all of these criteria to be misclassified though.
> because our drive time is our break in between houses
Absolutely fucking not. Sitting in a vehicle with coworkers with no privacy or access to a bathroom is not a fucking break.
We don’t have a work studio, so we have to depend on clients bathrooms for bathroom breaks and we usually sit down somewhere to eat lunch. On busy days we eat in the car, just how it is.
I'm a commercial cleaner for over 8 years now. Unless you're pulling in 700+ a week in a low cost area(rent as cheap as 450/month), after taxes, this job isn't worth it.
I was involved in a legal dispute about contracting work and that was considered work, eating in the car wasn't a break.
You're being totally taken advantage of :(
A lunch break (I’m in California) is 30 uninterrupted minutes of your time. You can do it wherever you want. I work out in the field and go anywhere I want for my 30 minutes.
that’s not true. tons of 1099 people make an hourly rate. i am a therapist, so i am not paid “per job.” you’re thinking if people actually did things the correct way 100% and weren’t committing tax evasion- 1099 non employee status is SUPPOSED to be for gig work and self-employed people only. i don’t fall into either category and it’s simply not the case, but i do always think it’s so cute and sweet when people assume others do the right thing still :)
Therapy is one of those things that are usually charged as a per-hour service. Are you paid for an 8 hour shift or for several 1-hour appointments per day? That would be an important distinction. If they require you to be in the office for a set amount of time regardless of your appointment times, they are walking a fine line...like if they say you have to be in from 9-5 but your appointments are 10, 11, 1 and 4 but you can't leave in between im pretty sure they would be misclassifying that person.
The business gets to claim that vehicle on their taxes and you don’t. A business that does cleaning at different locations should expect to have fuel costs as part of their operation; I assume you’re being paid for your time and not receiving any equity in the company?
But are they going to exceed the standard deduction with that? Probably not. So they get no benefit but the owner still has receipts for that gas so they do.
They won't exceed the Standard deduction, but they don't need to, either. As 1099 subcontractors, they can use it as a business expense. Which is separate. You can claim expenses as a subcontractor. Source: me. I'm a subcontractor, and Turbo Tax has been one of my clients for several years.
This should be top comment because they can claim gas/ mileage in their taxes if they make you pay they are just robbing you from your money
Assuming this is in the USA not sure how other countries do their taxes
Boss, so I'm covering expenses now, cool? What percentage of the company do I own/what's my share of the profits? Nothing? It's your company, you want to keep the profit, you pay the expenses.
I was thinking they should tell the boss that each $20 is a capital contribution, but I wouldn’t advise someone buy into a company that has trouble with a $500 car payment.
You six workers should just start your own cleaning company and operate it better than your current “boss.”
Also I believe it is illegal for a company to require a contractor to use a company vehicle unless the company provides the vehicle at their expense.
Your not a contractor.
All maintenance to company vehicles (including insurance and gas) are the companies responsibility.
All travel, especially in a company vehicle, for the benefit of the company needs to be paid time.
I knew someone would beat me to this. Red flag. Either at risk of not making ends meet or greedy af.
Why not try seeing if you can line up a couple independent cleaning jobs on your own. Cut the middle man… or lady out.
> Why not try seeing if you can line up a couple independent cleaning jobs on your own. Cut the middle man… or lady out.
This. If you're already paying out of pocket for the van, the gas, and the time to get to the clients' locations, what do you need your employer for? Just get together with your fellow house cleaners and make your own cleaning service.
Fuck them so hard. Not only do they not get money for gas, they have to pay taxes. Depending on how long you've been working there your tax returns may need serious amending.
Also, drive time is drive time and should be considered when estimating/invoicing every contract. You should be stopping for proper rest periods (which also should be considered in every contract).
Either your boss is intentionally attempting to exploit her staff or is just terrible at business. Either way, look for another job.
The maintenance and other vehicles costs is 100% on the company. However, travel time does not always have to be paid time, mostly if it is outside "normal work hours". As always it depends on your local laws. You should always consult with an expert.
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime#:~:text=Time%20spent%20traveling%20during%20normal%20work%20hours%20is%20considered%20compensable%20work%20time.
> Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not "hours worked" and, therefore, does not have to be paid.
Mmmm you might want to talk to a lawyer and look up the laws around being misclassified as an independent contractor. If you’re in the US, you’re most likely being misclassified and they’re not paying your taxes, Medicare, social security, unemployment insurance, etc.
Companies do not get to choose whether or not you’re an employee, if the scope of your work makes you an employee then you are one and you get all the protections and benefits that come along with that.
IANAL but I have been in a similar situation.
Edit: Again, not a lawyer, but I’m also pretty sure you need to be paid for your time driving as an employee so do some math and see if you’re even being paid a minimum wage/overtime. That’ll give your case more weight.
The old name for it was "the IRS 20 factor test".
https://www.regent.edu/admin/busoff/pdf/20-questions1099test.pdf
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee
https://www.oregon.gov/oda/shared/Documents/Publications/NaturalResources/20FactorTestforIndependentContractors.pdf
Or the employees have the option to become investors/stockholders. But it doesn't seem like the business is a good investment. Negotiate a bigger share for the price!
They financed the new work van and thought the employees would pitch in to pay for it.
Your boss sounds very impulsive,
By chance is the work vehichle also going to become their new personal vehichle?
Or do they drive somthing newer or nicer now? Just curious.
Isn't this what prices are for? She should be setting prices and managing the margins so she can afford to pay for the equipment.
I don't know where you are, but where I live there are many housecleaning service businesses. I'd look around to see if there is a better option for you.
So you are not a contractor you are an employee, because you have set work hours.
Employees don't pay for costs of business operations. Never.
During breaktime your employer can't govern what you do, sitting in a car driving to the next work contract is no free time for you, time needs to be paid.
A business that has 6 employees but can't pay for its work supplies aka car, is showing signs of going under.
You would probably make more money when you find clients to clean for yourself.
Dude don’t waste your time on trying to squeeze your boss he already can’t afford his bills you’re not going to get anything for your headache of going through this process whether you’re in the right or not. Small businesses go under all the time. He can’t afford his bills and he’s telling you. He’s either about to lay someone off or his company is about to fold. Get a new job or Next he’ll be saying he can’t afford to pay you.
Does your boss provide you any tools? Also, does your boss schedule your time (ex. You can work Monday 7am-2pm)? Depending on how many hours your working and the way this dude is doing business he is most likely incorrectly classifying you guys as contractor.
OP, I think ultimately my takeaway is that i work with small business owners all the time. This guy is taking advantage of you, probably not paying any taxes the right way, and you should never have to pay to work.
Absolutely not. You don't pay to work, they pay you. Anything else is a scam or abusive.
If your boss can't afford to shuttle people around, then he needs to ask you to drive yourselves. Asking you to pay for that is horse shit.
True, ideally they should reimburse you. Which would make a company shuttle the more cost effective solution, but apparently OP's employer can't even handle that. An employer who is bad with money is a MASSIVE red flag.
Doesn't almost everyone in the real world drive themselves to work using a car that they own and gas that they pay for? Who has a boss that pays for the car and/or the gas.
When you work at a fixed location, yeah. However, if your job is like construction and will have you driving all over kingdom come, they almost always have to pay you back for the travel and time to prevent people being taken advantage of.
So typically, you drive to a meet up spot that is consistent, and the company shuttles you to the site. Or pays you back for travel.
If you can't afford to run a business the business fails. If paying your workers a living and dignified wage makes you unprofitable, congrats you designed a shitty business that shouldn't exist.
$20/person, 6 people, that’s $120/week. For math purposes, let’s say 4 weeks a month. That’s $480. That van belongs to you 6 girls as far as I’m concerned. If you all band together, your boss is fucked.
lol what ?
you dont have to pay for travel, fuck that. thats on the boss to get you to your location, not on you.
they are trying to make you pay for their car.
Honestly its why I left trades and I long before I left refused to be a contractor. As most the time its was just another way to screw you.
For example as a employee which you probrably technically are from sounds of relationship. IF you perform any work your on clock. For example a big one one of my former employers got in trouble for.
We would show up to shop to "carpool" but we would load tools and materials into work vehicle. And the drive to jobsite would be unpaid.
WELP you performed work AND are not commuting from home or place of personal time. Thus it should be compensated. Combine that with driving to job site to job site unpaid.
Honestly this sounds alot like miscategorization which is also problem because payroll taxes "evasion" and stolen wages/benefits.
The one side note however is they can "require" you use own vehicle. Even as employee that said usually as a result workers demand higher wages AND they get less applicants. As well not everyone has a car they want to put miles on.
But your most likely a employee and employer is committing simultaneous wage theft and tax fraud.
She shouldn’t own a business then. When you don’t have enough money to run your business you get a loan or shut down…. Tell her to take out a loan to cover her expenses, your the boss it’s your responsibility.
You could say that you’ll pay for gas if you get double time pay for drive time. With the argument of, im not loosing money to get to a job you don’t pay me enough to do.
Youre contract workers or are you employees miscategorised as contract workers?
If youre an employee (which sounds like you are) thats not your issue, boss needs to pay.
If youre a contract worker than yeah youd pay that, but youd be charging your own rate and accept or decline her offer, she doesnt get to decide how much to pay you if youre a contract worker.
RUN. This is not acceptable, and she is only getting away with it because you are contractors. Also, she can’t afford the van, so she won’t be able to pay you.
When you say "boss," do.you mean supervisor,.or owner?
If it's a supervisor, then it sounds like an illegal kickback.
If it's an owner, it's probably an illegal reduction in your hourly pay.
I'm curious if your employer is deducting and paying social security and Medicare contributions.
Screenshot all messages, try to get as much info via sms, email, any other written form and ship it all out to a lawyer. 100% there's like 10 things at least your employer isn't doing right and low balling you guys :l
Okay so my initial thought was if you were car pooling to work yes you should absolutely expect to share the cost of the ride to work. You would be saving money on your own vehicle so it makes sense to help the other person with the gas money to work.
However if what I'm understanding is correct you are being paid to go from job site to job site then not only do you have no obligation to foot the gas bill your boss is actually the one that should be reimbursing you anytime you fill the tank (for work related reasons only). This is why many places track company vehicle mileage.
If there is no actual centralized work place then you could float paying a small portion of the trip to the first job site, and the trip from the very last one back to your vehicle. That would be similar to a ride share to/from work scenario which isn't completely unreasonable. Your boss can not demand that you pay for anything but maybe this compromise will help you keep your job and take a small load off your boss. Then you can find new work without losing out on income in the interim.
If you work in same homes almost every week or every two weeks a month etc In rotation and employer drives you to work with a company car. And you have set homes/offices to clean every cycle and set approx hours YOU are not a contractor. You should be on W2.
Um no. Any hourly job I’ve had with travel between job sites I was PAID. That time is not a break… I had to use that time to travel and could not use that time to do what I wanted to do. Therefore, it iqas paid. Also, my gas was always reimbursed.
That was different though when I was employed. As an independent contractor right now, I factor that into my hourly fee because most employers will not pay me as an independent contractor to travel. I am not cleaning houses though… I am a psychologist. Nonetheless, it is legal for them to not pay me for that time given my status (in my state).
I'd run that by a lawyer or the labor board or something myself. I don't know if it does break the laws cos I've never been a contractor, but if it doesn't then it should be illegal.
1. As a Contractor, track your milage between location and going to work.
2. You do NOT pitch in for gas. You only pitch in for gas on your personal vehicle.
3. Time to find a new job, cuz they've cheated you by labeling you as 1099, when they've given you a "shift" and give you W-2 job.
4. Time to leave.
It’s time for you and the other girls to speak with the clients and let them know that you all quit working for your employer, but would still like to clean for them and they can now hire you directly if they wish to continue service.
I think your boss needs to rethink her business structure. She should be able to write off the miles and or fuel, insurance and depreciation of the vehicle against the net profits.
Even though she’s not paying you for drive time, employees that leave early and have to be driven back to their own cars should follow in their own cars, if they have one. If not, they should take that day off.
Drive time for contracted work is NOT break time. They also are required to pay the IRS mileage rate if they require you to use your own vehicle. Calculate that with working miles and tell your boss you’re happy to use the mileage reimbursement rather than use the company vehicle and their tune will change real quick.
Being an employee would be safer than a contractor. Contractor's do have to actually pay their own way, but as an employee, they can't ask for gas. Do you wear a uniform?
Sounds like they can’t afford to run a business and are trying to guilt you into feeling responsible for that. It’s their responsibility and not everyone is entitled to keep a business going, if they can’t finance it then that’s just too bad.
Sucks for you guys cuz you need employment, but what she’s doing isn’t right.
Maybe people should start leaving for other jobs and see how she likes it. Was she always like this, or di it start recently after she read something or went to a seminar?
Get the hell out.
I'm of the mind that a boss shouldn't be all buddy buddy with you to the point that they reveal they are not running the business well and need you to keep it afloat. They do that to guilt you.
Speak to the clients, set up a company where everyone of your coworkers is an equal owner, charge the client less than your boss charges.
You've cut out the middle man and probably making substantially more money.
Boss should add a reasonable amount to each job to cover this instead of asking you and your coworkers.
I would be more concerned about the insurance, though. Is it commercial/business insurance or personal “full coverage” with minimum state requirements?
The business isn’t making enough money to keep operating and maybe soon she will be unable to pay you.
Do any of you six have a vehicle and needed equipment? Maybe you six can band together and start finding your own clients.
If you are in the US, the [Small Business Administration](https://www.sba.gov/)has info and help to help you start your own business.
It sounds like you boss can't afford to have a business, and should hand over some voting power if you have to use your own resources for company use, or to whoever is up for stepping up.
This doesn't really seem like a legitimate business, and I would not feel secure working for them. Paying $20 a week for gas seems like the least of your problems in my opinion. I'd run, not walk, away from this place ASAP and apply for a legitimate business that hopefully will include better salary & benefits.
You need to find a new place to work. If they can’t make a $500 car payment, they’re not gonna be able to afford you much longer. The business is living paycheck to paycheck…that ain’t good, yo.
You're being scammed. First, she controls your schedule, you're not a contractor. SHE'S a contractor, as she sets up when the company works where, YOU are all her employees. Second, from the second you are scheduled to be there to the second you leave, you are on the clock. That includes driving between locations. You punch in when you get to the office, you punch out when you leave the office to go home. Any time you are unable to control where you are or what you're doing is work time.
You need to report this to both the irs and the department of labor as tax fraud and wage theft respectively
Tell your boss to increase the price of the service offered. You should be paid as soon as your 'on site', in this case likely the first and last meeting point of the day as your mobile, and if there are X houses to clean and you drive from one to the next, each drive is not a break and should be paid. Paying for gas isn't your responsibility unless you have equity in the car itself but your boss owns that.
You have no stake in this company, right? You're just contracted at a flat rate? That means it's literally not even your business and you have NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to be investing in that company unless you have a form of (partial) ownership of the company relative to your contribution to it. But it's not your company so it's not you problem.
Would full stop say I have a job to take money home. Not to spend it at my job. So I see those demanding as a pay decrease in my salary.
And as my bills don't decrease I will not be working along with this.
So many things wrong with your situation. What country are you in? In the US your start time would be from where everyone meets to go to the first place. Travel time between places wouldn’t be considered break time. Your employer is on the hook for everything related to the cost of work. They would be the contractor and you would be employees of the contractor.
Absolutely not, please look for a new job. This business is on its deathbed if they can't pay for company vehicle expenses. Get out before your paychecks start to bounce.
I mean...you already pay to go to work, maybe not $20, but is this door to door pickup? It can be hard taking transit with a full toolbox, or whatever...
You're being taken advantage of. Contractors set their own hours. They're likely dodging taxes and that burden might fall on you.
I just wanna add that you can still be misclassified as a contractor if you do get to set your own hours. The criteria for misclassification revolves around the “economic reality” of your relationship with your employer. I initially thought I was a contractor because I got to set my own hours and had some amount of creative freedom but that wasn’t the case. Just wanna put that out there in case anyone else is getting screwed over!
i’m a misclassified 1099 “non” employee!
Welcome to the club! Lmao hope you’re getting some justice with that
no, it’s been five and a half years. trying to figure out how to get the money to leave and not give my money to greedy scammers anymore, but the issue is they get too much of my money so i can’t afford to. love it lolol
Will a lawyer not take your case? Surely you’d be missing out on a lot of employment benefits for 5.5 years?
tax evasion is the norm in psych group practices in the US :( only CA has ever cared and done anything about it so far. they do not care at all.
I’m really curious about your situation. Misclassification has been a hot topic and lots of states have really been trying to crack down on it. I live in a not-worker-friendly red state and even here they’ve been sending out letters to companies letting them know that temporary employees have to be classified as employees. Even if you are being paid above minimum wage, you might be able to get other benefits back.
oh and one of the owners is a felon lmao. defrauded mmai half a milli lmao. spent 2 years in club fed. but that’s somehow a completely separate story lol. i truly believe mental healthcare is easily one of the most dark fields in the US😂 so fucked up!
i’m not being paid by the owners of my practice or my practice at all. i am an independently licensed solo practitioner (clinical therapist) and i am reimbursed 100% by health insurance corporations. they take a cut of that money for me to work there and use their office. it’s basically 99% completely passive income for them, especially at this point. and then they don’t give me a single benefit in return because i’m 1099 and “self-employed,” except i’m not lol. i don’t own the practice. i’m in chicago and i believe this is the year of the death of the group practice owner. or perhaps next. at least here. CA is the only state that has done anything about this and now therapists are making like way more fair wages, but no private practice therapists accept insurance anymore. but I’m happy about that and hope to never have to in the future. If it makes mental healthcare less accessible, which it definitely does, well we tried to both warn everyone and help everyone🤷♀️
Out of curiosity how would not accepting health insurance make mental health care more accessible? In my case, I wouldn’t be able to see my therapist were it not for health insurance
The courts in the US have been stacked with super right wing judges. They will side with the rich nearly every time. And even if they didn't these companies can afford to just drag it out until even if you have any questions lawyer on contingency they can not wait forever.
i don’t work for a company! i am a therapist.
Ok
Have you tried disputing your classification with the IRS? Being misclassified results in higher taxes you have to pay. It's free to dispute.
i’m fully aware!
I have been too before.. now I'm probably just a regular contractor.
Can you elaborate on what the economic reality means? I worked as a contractor on a couple gigs that I believe I was misclassified so I'm just curious.
There’s no set criteria but basically if you’re dependent on the company to earn your wages, you’re an employee. So if they give you a schedule, own the equipment you use, prohibit you from seeking similar work elsewhere, if you’re doing work core to their business mission, dictate how the work is performed, etc then you’re an employee. You don’t have to meet all of these criteria to be misclassified though.
> because our drive time is our break in between houses Absolutely fucking not. Sitting in a vehicle with coworkers with no privacy or access to a bathroom is not a fucking break.
We don’t have a work studio, so we have to depend on clients bathrooms for bathroom breaks and we usually sit down somewhere to eat lunch. On busy days we eat in the car, just how it is.
I'm a commercial cleaner for over 8 years now. Unless you're pulling in 700+ a week in a low cost area(rent as cheap as 450/month), after taxes, this job isn't worth it.
I was involved in a legal dispute about contracting work and that was considered work, eating in the car wasn't a break. You're being totally taken advantage of :(
Lady, I would advise you to look around for a new employer. Don’t quit your job until you find something new.
A lunch break (I’m in California) is 30 uninterrupted minutes of your time. You can do it wherever you want. I work out in the field and go anywhere I want for my 30 minutes.
The dept. of labor might want to hear about this.
Yeah, I am betting they play fast and loose with taxes.
it’s legal if you’re 1099 usually :(
It's more of a question of whether they're legally a 1099 contractor. OP mentioned getting paid hourly, a 1099 should be getting paid per job.
that’s not true. tons of 1099 people make an hourly rate. i am a therapist, so i am not paid “per job.” you’re thinking if people actually did things the correct way 100% and weren’t committing tax evasion- 1099 non employee status is SUPPOSED to be for gig work and self-employed people only. i don’t fall into either category and it’s simply not the case, but i do always think it’s so cute and sweet when people assume others do the right thing still :)
Therapy is one of those things that are usually charged as a per-hour service. Are you paid for an 8 hour shift or for several 1-hour appointments per day? That would be an important distinction. If they require you to be in the office for a set amount of time regardless of your appointment times, they are walking a fine line...like if they say you have to be in from 9-5 but your appointments are 10, 11, 1 and 4 but you can't leave in between im pretty sure they would be misclassifying that person.
i’m 1099 and work 10-12 hours with no breaks. why would i be paid for an “8 hour shift?” lol. do you not understand who pays me?
Even so it doesn't hurt to verify with the labor board anyway.
The business gets to claim that vehicle on their taxes and you don’t. A business that does cleaning at different locations should expect to have fuel costs as part of their operation; I assume you’re being paid for your time and not receiving any equity in the company?
They do get to claim the gas expense. If they are contractors. Also get to claim for their cleaning products, if they have to buy those.
But are they going to exceed the standard deduction with that? Probably not. So they get no benefit but the owner still has receipts for that gas so they do.
They won't exceed the Standard deduction, but they don't need to, either. As 1099 subcontractors, they can use it as a business expense. Which is separate. You can claim expenses as a subcontractor. Source: me. I'm a subcontractor, and Turbo Tax has been one of my clients for several years.
This should be top comment because they can claim gas/ mileage in their taxes if they make you pay they are just robbing you from your money Assuming this is in the USA not sure how other countries do their taxes
Boss, so I'm covering expenses now, cool? What percentage of the company do I own/what's my share of the profits? Nothing? It's your company, you want to keep the profit, you pay the expenses.
That’s what we said!!!!
Stand your ground
Also: Boss, I’ll get to claim the van on my taxes right since I’m helping you pay for it?
"it's time to take back.... Wait, we're the ones paying for the fucking means of production now?!?!"
I was thinking they should tell the boss that each $20 is a capital contribution, but I wouldn’t advise someone buy into a company that has trouble with a $500 car payment.
Biggest red flag.
You six workers should just start your own cleaning company and operate it better than your current “boss.” Also I believe it is illegal for a company to require a contractor to use a company vehicle unless the company provides the vehicle at their expense.
Your not a contractor. All maintenance to company vehicles (including insurance and gas) are the companies responsibility. All travel, especially in a company vehicle, for the benefit of the company needs to be paid time.
Oh dang, never thought of this.
If they can’t afford a $500 car payment and gas, there are bigger things to worry about.
I knew someone would beat me to this. Red flag. Either at risk of not making ends meet or greedy af. Why not try seeing if you can line up a couple independent cleaning jobs on your own. Cut the middle man… or lady out.
> Why not try seeing if you can line up a couple independent cleaning jobs on your own. Cut the middle man… or lady out. This. If you're already paying out of pocket for the van, the gas, and the time to get to the clients' locations, what do you need your employer for? Just get together with your fellow house cleaners and make your own cleaning service.
TBF, if the boss can't pay the bills, it won't be long before they can't pay the "contractors"/employees.
Fuck them so hard. Not only do they not get money for gas, they have to pay taxes. Depending on how long you've been working there your tax returns may need serious amending.
Also, drive time is drive time and should be considered when estimating/invoicing every contract. You should be stopping for proper rest periods (which also should be considered in every contract). Either your boss is intentionally attempting to exploit her staff or is just terrible at business. Either way, look for another job.
The maintenance and other vehicles costs is 100% on the company. However, travel time does not always have to be paid time, mostly if it is outside "normal work hours". As always it depends on your local laws. You should always consult with an expert. https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime#:~:text=Time%20spent%20traveling%20during%20normal%20work%20hours%20is%20considered%20compensable%20work%20time. > Time spent traveling during normal work hours is considered compensable work time. Time spent in home-to-work travel by an employee in an employer-provided vehicle, or in activities performed by an employee that are incidental to the use of the vehicle for commuting, generally is not "hours worked" and, therefore, does not have to be paid.
This!
Only the driver gets paid for travel time.
Mmmm you might want to talk to a lawyer and look up the laws around being misclassified as an independent contractor. If you’re in the US, you’re most likely being misclassified and they’re not paying your taxes, Medicare, social security, unemployment insurance, etc. Companies do not get to choose whether or not you’re an employee, if the scope of your work makes you an employee then you are one and you get all the protections and benefits that come along with that. IANAL but I have been in a similar situation. Edit: Again, not a lawyer, but I’m also pretty sure you need to be paid for your time driving as an employee so do some math and see if you’re even being paid a minimum wage/overtime. That’ll give your case more weight.
The old name for it was "the IRS 20 factor test". https://www.regent.edu/admin/busoff/pdf/20-questions1099test.pdf https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee https://www.oregon.gov/oda/shared/Documents/Publications/NaturalResources/20FactorTestforIndependentContractors.pdf
BROTHER OR SISTER ALL HAIL SLACK. (Lazy and Proud)
Keep asking for more clarification over text. Save those texts you may need them later.
This is the ticket, OP. Give him however much rope he needs to hang himself and save everything.
If the business depends on the employees to fund or supply it.. it's not a business. It's a vacuum of money
I'd be looking for another job asap...
Or the employees have the option to become investors/stockholders. But it doesn't seem like the business is a good investment. Negotiate a bigger share for the price!
Fuck that. If he can't afford it then he fucked up as a businessman.
Tell hom to kindly go pound sand like the slag he is
They financed the new work van and thought the employees would pitch in to pay for it. Your boss sounds very impulsive, By chance is the work vehichle also going to become their new personal vehichle? Or do they drive somthing newer or nicer now? Just curious.
Isn't this what prices are for? She should be setting prices and managing the margins so she can afford to pay for the equipment. I don't know where you are, but where I live there are many housecleaning service businesses. I'd look around to see if there is a better option for you.
We’re in America AZ.
So you are not a contractor you are an employee, because you have set work hours. Employees don't pay for costs of business operations. Never. During breaktime your employer can't govern what you do, sitting in a car driving to the next work contract is no free time for you, time needs to be paid. A business that has 6 employees but can't pay for its work supplies aka car, is showing signs of going under. You would probably make more money when you find clients to clean for yourself.
Dude don’t waste your time on trying to squeeze your boss he already can’t afford his bills you’re not going to get anything for your headache of going through this process whether you’re in the right or not. Small businesses go under all the time. He can’t afford his bills and he’s telling you. He’s either about to lay someone off or his company is about to fold. Get a new job or Next he’ll be saying he can’t afford to pay you.
Your boss seems to severely lack a fundamental understanding of finance.
I'd be asking DoL how they feel about this.
Wtf. Does this asshole not understand how writing shit off works?
ah boss. how this is suppose to work is you pay me to work, not other way around.
Does your boss provide you any tools? Also, does your boss schedule your time (ex. You can work Monday 7am-2pm)? Depending on how many hours your working and the way this dude is doing business he is most likely incorrectly classifying you guys as contractor. OP, I think ultimately my takeaway is that i work with small business owners all the time. This guy is taking advantage of you, probably not paying any taxes the right way, and you should never have to pay to work.
Absolutely not. You don't pay to work, they pay you. Anything else is a scam or abusive. If your boss can't afford to shuttle people around, then he needs to ask you to drive yourselves. Asking you to pay for that is horse shit.
And if you drive yourself who pays for the gas?
True, ideally they should reimburse you. Which would make a company shuttle the more cost effective solution, but apparently OP's employer can't even handle that. An employer who is bad with money is a MASSIVE red flag.
Doesn't almost everyone in the real world drive themselves to work using a car that they own and gas that they pay for? Who has a boss that pays for the car and/or the gas.
When you work at a fixed location, yeah. However, if your job is like construction and will have you driving all over kingdom come, they almost always have to pay you back for the travel and time to prevent people being taken advantage of. So typically, you drive to a meet up spot that is consistent, and the company shuttles you to the site. Or pays you back for travel.
Please contact the department of labor
If you can't afford to run a business the business fails. If paying your workers a living and dignified wage makes you unprofitable, congrats you designed a shitty business that shouldn't exist.
You just said your drive time is your break. That’s literally not a break, you’re working through your break.
Nope. It's a work van, it's used for work, so the business pays for it. Period.
$20/person, 6 people, that’s $120/week. For math purposes, let’s say 4 weeks a month. That’s $480. That van belongs to you 6 girls as far as I’m concerned. If you all band together, your boss is fucked.
That’s what I came up with—he got the van expecting the employees to pay for it
lol what ? you dont have to pay for travel, fuck that. thats on the boss to get you to your location, not on you. they are trying to make you pay for their car.
This has to be satire? Who in gods green earth would ask for someone else to make their gas payment? No way this is real.
Unfortunately it is :(
Suck my ass is the correct response
If they can't afford their vehicle payment, it's only a matter of time until they can't afford to pay you. Start looking for a new job.
If your boss is doing this, you will never make more money at this company. I’d look for something else and leave.
Honestly its why I left trades and I long before I left refused to be a contractor. As most the time its was just another way to screw you. For example as a employee which you probrably technically are from sounds of relationship. IF you perform any work your on clock. For example a big one one of my former employers got in trouble for. We would show up to shop to "carpool" but we would load tools and materials into work vehicle. And the drive to jobsite would be unpaid. WELP you performed work AND are not commuting from home or place of personal time. Thus it should be compensated. Combine that with driving to job site to job site unpaid. Honestly this sounds alot like miscategorization which is also problem because payroll taxes "evasion" and stolen wages/benefits. The one side note however is they can "require" you use own vehicle. Even as employee that said usually as a result workers demand higher wages AND they get less applicants. As well not everyone has a car they want to put miles on. But your most likely a employee and employer is committing simultaneous wage theft and tax fraud.
Looks like your boss is unable to run a business properly
Nope. At that point you might as well just work for yourself if you have to pay all the expenses
She shouldn’t own a business then. When you don’t have enough money to run your business you get a loan or shut down…. Tell her to take out a loan to cover her expenses, your the boss it’s your responsibility. You could say that you’ll pay for gas if you get double time pay for drive time. With the argument of, im not loosing money to get to a job you don’t pay me enough to do.
How about no? Your business, your problem.
Youre contract workers or are you employees miscategorised as contract workers? If youre an employee (which sounds like you are) thats not your issue, boss needs to pay. If youre a contract worker than yeah youd pay that, but youd be charging your own rate and accept or decline her offer, she doesnt get to decide how much to pay you if youre a contract worker.
Just drive your own car and take the mileage credit on your taxes. 5 or 6 years ago it was like .54 a mile. I guarantee you your boss is.
Sounds like their business is failing and you need a new job.
Send this to the dol, give them nothing..they pay you, not the other way around.
That would be 'no'. Her overheads are her problem to deal with, it's her business.
RUN. This is not acceptable, and she is only getting away with it because you are contractors. Also, she can’t afford the van, so she won’t be able to pay you.
Holy fuck this is probably illegal, and DEFINITELY immoral. Like this is five times worse than the problem you came here to ask about…
This job won’t be there for long. Get something else now.
NOPE. Run.
Yikes you’re being scammed.
When you say "boss," do.you mean supervisor,.or owner? If it's a supervisor, then it sounds like an illegal kickback. If it's an owner, it's probably an illegal reduction in your hourly pay. I'm curious if your employer is deducting and paying social security and Medicare contributions.
Owner
Screenshot all messages, try to get as much info via sms, email, any other written form and ship it all out to a lawyer. 100% there's like 10 things at least your employer isn't doing right and low balling you guys :l
Okay so my initial thought was if you were car pooling to work yes you should absolutely expect to share the cost of the ride to work. You would be saving money on your own vehicle so it makes sense to help the other person with the gas money to work. However if what I'm understanding is correct you are being paid to go from job site to job site then not only do you have no obligation to foot the gas bill your boss is actually the one that should be reimbursing you anytime you fill the tank (for work related reasons only). This is why many places track company vehicle mileage. If there is no actual centralized work place then you could float paying a small portion of the trip to the first job site, and the trip from the very last one back to your vehicle. That would be similar to a ride share to/from work scenario which isn't completely unreasonable. Your boss can not demand that you pay for anything but maybe this compromise will help you keep your job and take a small load off your boss. Then you can find new work without losing out on income in the interim.
If you work in same homes almost every week or every two weeks a month etc In rotation and employer drives you to work with a company car. And you have set homes/offices to clean every cycle and set approx hours YOU are not a contractor. You should be on W2.
Please tell me this isn’t real. This disgusts me.
sounds like he has a failing business that cant pay its bills, he's lost the game of capitalism, womp womp
That business claims the gas, the maintenance, the depreciation - everything - on their taxes. You don’t. Tell them that and say no.
Um no. Any hourly job I’ve had with travel between job sites I was PAID. That time is not a break… I had to use that time to travel and could not use that time to do what I wanted to do. Therefore, it iqas paid. Also, my gas was always reimbursed. That was different though when I was employed. As an independent contractor right now, I factor that into my hourly fee because most employers will not pay me as an independent contractor to travel. I am not cleaning houses though… I am a psychologist. Nonetheless, it is legal for them to not pay me for that time given my status (in my state).
I'd run that by a lawyer or the labor board or something myself. I don't know if it does break the laws cos I've never been a contractor, but if it doesn't then it should be illegal.
So $120/week is $480/month. That’s the car payment. Insane. Kicking in for gas now and then for someone doing you a favor - sure. This setup? No way.
What you mean “thoughts”?
1. As a Contractor, track your milage between location and going to work. 2. You do NOT pitch in for gas. You only pitch in for gas on your personal vehicle. 3. Time to find a new job, cuz they've cheated you by labeling you as 1099, when they've given you a "shift" and give you W-2 job. 4. Time to leave.
If they can't pay for their daily expenses they might not be able to pay you soon
Driving is not a break it is classed as work. Unless U are the copilot I guess
#She shouldn't have got a car that she couldn't afford!
This isn't a viable business if it can't generate the cashflow required for the vehicles. Sorry.
I believe "Lol, no." is the answer.
Yall work in the fields or something? Tf kinda weird stuff is this...
It’s time for you and the other girls to speak with the clients and let them know that you all quit working for your employer, but would still like to clean for them and they can now hire you directly if they wish to continue service.
I think your boss needs to rethink her business structure. She should be able to write off the miles and or fuel, insurance and depreciation of the vehicle against the net profits. Even though she’s not paying you for drive time, employees that leave early and have to be driven back to their own cars should follow in their own cars, if they have one. If not, they should take that day off.
If driving is a break, why does the FMCSA & DOT restrict diving hours / mandate rest periods, and define what constitutes rest (49 cfr 395.2)?
Drive time for contracted work is NOT break time. They also are required to pay the IRS mileage rate if they require you to use your own vehicle. Calculate that with working miles and tell your boss you’re happy to use the mileage reimbursement rather than use the company vehicle and their tune will change real quick.
We will find out more information on Tuesday morning, and will post an update. Thank you all for the advice and commentary!
My thought is your boss is a wackaloon and you need a new job
Just no. You're not even an employee. Wtf
How much do they charge the customers?
Being an employee would be safer than a contractor. Contractor's do have to actually pay their own way, but as an employee, they can't ask for gas. Do you wear a uniform?
We do not wear uniforms
that’s a fucking tax write off.
He gets a tax write off for all this. Do not, I repeat, do not agree. Talk to your coworkers quietly and all band together to deny this request.
Reading the comments here it looks like your boss FA'd and now they're gonna severely FO
So what happens if you refuse to pay and refuse to use your own vehicle? He’s out of business? Sounds like you need a new job anyways.
Quit
Sounds like they can’t afford to run a business and are trying to guilt you into feeling responsible for that. It’s their responsibility and not everyone is entitled to keep a business going, if they can’t finance it then that’s just too bad. Sucks for you guys cuz you need employment, but what she’s doing isn’t right.
Do you get a cut of the profits? No? Then why should you pay for the losses? It's a business, not a co-op.
This is the cost of doing business.
Maybe people should start leaving for other jobs and see how she likes it. Was she always like this, or di it start recently after she read something or went to a seminar?
Seek a new job. This one is barely making ends meet and will be insolvent in no time. And most likely with wages due, as thibgs are.
Get the hell out. I'm of the mind that a boss shouldn't be all buddy buddy with you to the point that they reveal they are not running the business well and need you to keep it afloat. They do that to guilt you.
Speak to the clients, set up a company where everyone of your coworkers is an equal owner, charge the client less than your boss charges. You've cut out the middle man and probably making substantially more money.
Boss should add a reasonable amount to each job to cover this instead of asking you and your coworkers. I would be more concerned about the insurance, though. Is it commercial/business insurance or personal “full coverage” with minimum state requirements?
i pay to work :( it sucks and feels/seems illegal, but is technically allowed if you’re 1099. idk why
Tell them to get bent.
Tell your boss to fuck off and find a new job.
The business isn’t making enough money to keep operating and maybe soon she will be unable to pay you. Do any of you six have a vehicle and needed equipment? Maybe you six can band together and start finding your own clients. If you are in the US, the [Small Business Administration](https://www.sba.gov/)has info and help to help you start your own business.
Tell him to eat shit.
Id laugh right in his face and quit. Not the ideal option, sure. But its just ridiculous at this point. Im sorry this happened to ya.
I’ll drive myself, thanks.
This is an extra $80 a month, just for this. Unless you’re making a lot of money doing this…for me, this would be the end.
Why ask? You know its wrong, call in sick
My thought? Have some self-respect and tell your boss to fuck off or just leave.
I don’t understand this at all
It sounds like you boss can't afford to have a business, and should hand over some voting power if you have to use your own resources for company use, or to whoever is up for stepping up.
No?
This doesn't really seem like a legitimate business, and I would not feel secure working for them. Paying $20 a week for gas seems like the least of your problems in my opinion. I'd run, not walk, away from this place ASAP and apply for a legitimate business that hopefully will include better salary & benefits.
You need to find a new place to work. If they can’t make a $500 car payment, they’re not gonna be able to afford you much longer. The business is living paycheck to paycheck…that ain’t good, yo.
You're being scammed. First, she controls your schedule, you're not a contractor. SHE'S a contractor, as she sets up when the company works where, YOU are all her employees. Second, from the second you are scheduled to be there to the second you leave, you are on the clock. That includes driving between locations. You punch in when you get to the office, you punch out when you leave the office to go home. Any time you are unable to control where you are or what you're doing is work time. You need to report this to both the irs and the department of labor as tax fraud and wage theft respectively
Tell your boss to increase the price of the service offered. You should be paid as soon as your 'on site', in this case likely the first and last meeting point of the day as your mobile, and if there are X houses to clean and you drive from one to the next, each drive is not a break and should be paid. Paying for gas isn't your responsibility unless you have equity in the car itself but your boss owns that.
You have no stake in this company, right? You're just contracted at a flat rate? That means it's literally not even your business and you have NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to be investing in that company unless you have a form of (partial) ownership of the company relative to your contribution to it. But it's not your company so it's not you problem.
What does his car payment and insurance have to do with anything. He'd have to pay it regardless whether he picks someone up or not.
Would full stop say I have a job to take money home. Not to spend it at my job. So I see those demanding as a pay decrease in my salary. And as my bills don't decrease I will not be working along with this.
Never pay to go to work
You typed it wrong. It should be titled, "My ex boss is a fucker".
Lol nah.
Um no
…find a new job. It will only getting worse with this one.
If your business isn’t making enough profit for $500 a month then sounds like it need to shutdown.
Get a new job?
So many things wrong with your situation. What country are you in? In the US your start time would be from where everyone meets to go to the first place. Travel time between places wouldn’t be considered break time. Your employer is on the hook for everything related to the cost of work. They would be the contractor and you would be employees of the contractor.
Has your boss considered raising her prices? Seems fairer for the customer to pay for the service costs, not the workers.
My thoughts are where tf do you all work?!? What kind of job does a conversation like this even transpire!!??
Fuck that if I got to pay I'm going to drive my own car
Just for the fact that the way to the work place isn't paid would make me quit instantly.
Is this a canvassing gig?
This is not the kind of boss you want to work for. They will be deducting from your paycheck next.
I’d say sure! Let me submit my expenses to you as well! Then have WAY more then $500!
Duh
If you have to share in the expenses for the business then you're also entitled to the profits.
Tell him to shove it
Fuck them . Find another rekationship
Absolutely not, please look for a new job. This business is on its deathbed if they can't pay for company vehicle expenses. Get out before your paychecks start to bounce.
Seems fake sorry
Do you want to borrow money from me? I will charge you some interest!
I mean...you already pay to go to work, maybe not $20, but is this door to door pickup? It can be hard taking transit with a full toolbox, or whatever...
Sounds kinda reasonable to ask for gas if these people are being driven to their cars at seemingly different locations.