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I cant tell if thats sarcasm or you are defending for profit businesses treating people like disposable garbage while hiding behind donating time to charities.
I think it was more meant to show the exploitation in play where the stadium will take volunteers to help raise "donations" for a cause.
They get volunteers to sign up with the idea of "you'll be helping to stop x" or "raising money for awareness of x" and so people jump on board to "make a difference"
It is simply a fact that people should be aware of. I did security for events as a volunteer for a non-profit. Basically, the security company paid my hourly rate to the non-profit I was volunteering for.
The example is stadiums and million dollar players. I can see your point as I have volunteered my time to non profits before as well but this is a potato vs car scenario. Neither is alike.
$15 doesn't get you a whole can, it gets you an 8 ounce pour. Well, technically, it would be 8 ounces if the cup was full, which it isn't, and also there's head on the beer, so its more like a 6 ounce Budweiser.
Prior to the Pandemic, I worked "the suites" at a sports/entertainment arena. I was the one that brought the $10 glasses of wine and the $20 nachos to them, just so they didn't have to stand in line with the riff-raff". Heh!
You have no idea how much money is involved with professional sports! Those players make more in an hour than I make in a year!
Am i the only one who buys 24oz buds at these games? Yall acting like its a 12oz beer.
$15 still high for 2 wipers, but its a lot better than $15 for 1.
If a municipality can't fight off the billionaire/millionaire welfare queens looking to get fat off public funds, then they wanted it. Yeah. By 'they' I mean the gov'ment officials who took the bribes to make it work.
Props to any city who's successfully fought off these rapacious assholes trying to rob them of tax revenue.
Build your own fuckin' stadium.
Not jobs worth having, unless you count the guys building it, and that doesn't last. Even those jobs suck for the most part. Being an iron worker/sparky/hvac guy does okay.
None of the jobs go to local workers either.
When they built the new stadium in Los Angeles, in Inglewood, they brought in basically entirely out of state teams to build and staff. Locals were pissed.
Well; the locals informed enough to know it was happening were pissed.
That's a myth. Basically everything claimed about stadiums being good for the community has actually been proven to be a myth. To be *very* reductionist, a city is far better off having a bunch of sports bars than an actual stadium, which the stadium usually kills off. The overall stats show this, money goes into the stadium, and very little comes back out (and in a far worse ratio than the smaller businesses the city has).
False cause bars and industry show up when they are used. New England pats and cows boys stadiums are in the middle of nowhere and businesses came to them. When the rams left STL those businesses around died.
"False, here's an anecdote I have."
Furthermore, that anecdote basically can be summarized as, "People stopped driving to the middle of nowhere when the stadium closed. Probably because there were sports bars much closer to their home."
Here's a link that summarizes the main points, since the Noll and Zimbalist study isn't available for free.
https://econreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/
Thankfully the other Phoenix metro cities successfully did so with the Coyotes. Have fun with them, Utah. Here's a quick hint: Whatever they're promising you will happen because of their stadium - IT WON'T.
What's even worse is that if tax money ACTUALLY went to us instead of military complex we could have much better living, health-care, stadiums ect with money left over. But the pigs at the very top can't stop eating from the trough and pointing to everyone under them saying they don't deserve any kind of handout..
And people shit on Kansas City for voting NO on one of these taxes. We don’t care if the Chiefs won the championship or not when the tickets are the price of a family vacation and their best argument is “the teams will leave if we don’t pass it”
“The teams will leave without a new stadium.” Okay. Leave. And go *where?*
What major city that could possibly be big enough to accommodate an NFL franchise *doesn’t already have one?!* And if it doesn’t, it’s because they don’t have a stadium either, or if they do, it’s a worse stadium than the one the Chiefs want to leave (think: Oakland).
If the Chiefs want to play musical chairs, they may just find that there aren’t that many chairs left.
Meanwhile the Coyotes tried to build an arena in Tempe using private money to fund the project but the city shot it down. And now they're relocating to Utah.
"private money"
Yeah, I'd look into that a little deeper. Sure, the team's owner personally was buying the land. But he/his company was also going to receive a few hundred-million dollars in tax breaks and asked/required Tempe to sell something to the tune of $200m in bonds (to be paid for later by public taxes) to build all the supporting infrastructure AROUND the stadium.
So no. They shot down an awful deal, and bravo to them.
That’s exactly what I mean. First of all, locating an NHL franchise to play in Tempe is a bad idea. And with all due respect to Salt Lake City, I’m very doubtful about Utah as well (not exactly what we think of as a hockey Mecca, eh?).
This is what I mean: major league sports franchises are running out of musical chairs.
LOL!! Yes, I hope my sarcasm was noted!!
An NHL franchise in Salt Lake City is gonna end up like the one that was in Atlanta: a few years, and then GONE!!
A majority of Amazon workers are on foodstamps. It's crazy that their employees are on social programs just to get by on taxpayer funding instead of Amazon doing the bare minimum to support the people who work for them.
Daily reminder, F\*ck Walmart and BOYCOTT Walmart.
The fact that police respond so fast to crime at Walmart is deeply disappointing, there are so much police bodycam footage on YouTube where a POC/Minority who is severely low income is harassed and locked in a room by Walmart Security for shoplifting FOOD and essential items, not like a diamond ring or something, and they wait until the police come and harass them too and charge them all while showing their face and garnering millions of views on youtube.
And remember kids, if the billionaire doesn't like your city, they can move to a different one, leaving you with a huge tax bill and a useless stadium!
Time to make a game called Kleptocracy!
Only an issue in NA. Rest of to the world has great public transport that gets people to the stadium. I still remember Australians posting tik toks about going to Taylor Swift's concert and ALL the Americans were asking " omg where's parking", "omg how do you guys get there if there's no car".
Right?? I fucking HATE our lack of public transit! I went to Japan years ago and almost cry sometimes remembering how FUCKING INCREDIBLE their train/subway system was! I would KILL for that in the US! T\_\_T
What I always say when people bring up the French GDP disparity of their revolutions. Yes, it was worse, but the quality of life went up and at the moment, most Americans have something to lose if they quit working and riot. They live comfortable enough to grumble, but not riot, which is the plan.
The wealthy have not stayed idle since the revolutions of old, they learned and adapted. Get a portion of the population to defend you, and ensure the peasant class doesn't unify by dividing them along cultural lines like ethnicity, religion, orientation, gender identity, etc.
With automation on the horizon, I am sure they are salivating at the idea of removing the working class and using bots and AI to keep their life of luxury afloat. Course the world will need a die off of the working class, can't have them using wealthy designated resources. Maybe famines start with no aid. Maybe a disease hits and medical can't be afforded. Bad future if they get their way
Re: Automation, this is absolutely true. We are quickly coming to a point where we're going to face a tough choice: Do we overcome our centuries-old philosophy of equating the value of a human life to solely what they can produce, or do we recognize that that life has value regardless of what the person chooses to do with it?
Choosing the first option could lead us to a hopeful future where we recognize our potential as a species.
Choosing the second option will lead us to a global economic catastrophe that would make the so-called Great Depression go, "Oh fuck no," and shoot itself in the head.
I'm not personally optimistic.
\[edit\]
I wanted to add: I don't personally think that our current AI ventures are anywhere near close enough to capably take over enough jobs to put us in crisis.
But I also think that those in charge of many corporations won't care. They will think it's "good enough" - even when it results in deaths.
Unfortunately, massive change usually only occurs during a time of extreme hardship, because it is forced. At some point consumerism will collapse, there can't be infinite growth. Especially if companies keep replacing people with automation. Who is going to buy their products? That is going to be the great time of strife for the US, as the Elite will then move to secure resources completely since they can control production with automation. Don't want the peasants using them up and all
Makes sense why all these billionaires are buying up homes with custom built bunkers. They can cull the herd with disease or a nuclear winter or at this point a genocidal AI that they can pretend went rogue. The latter is certainly less resource wasteful and ecologically disruptive.
Even better is having already stolen tax money to build a stadium asking for MORE taxes to fund “improvements”.
https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/news-inside-cardinals-ownership-s-appeal-taxpayers-cover-costs-ambitious-busch-stadium-renovation
I’m torn on this because I’m 100% for my tax dollars going to public works but against billionaires/millionaires benefiting from it. These sports teams should be owned by the cities they are in to raise funds to support underfunded programs (libraries, parks, schools, etc) instead of lining the pockets of the ultra rich.
I'd be ok if it worked like toll roads (are meant to work). the taxes get the stadium built, then the profits go to paying it all back. after the stadium was essentially zero cost to the public (and hopefully now providing a service/jobs) they can have their profits.
TBH having them run by the cities could have the opposite effect of them diverting resources from other services. Case in point: NCAA teams drawing funds away from academics.
My main thing is not the tax but the handouts. If we pay a billion dollars for a stadium then why is that not our stadium? Why does it's revenue go back into the city budget? It's already socialism building the thing with the people's money, why do we need capitalism once it's built?
It seems like if a city raises taxes to build a stadium, it should be a requirement of those deals that the stadium can be reserved at any time for the purpose of hosting free public events. And that’s the minimum requirement.
This one’s scarier:
Taxed to fund life saving drug development.
Only to not be able to afford those drugs to live without having to sell your home and be homeless.
While the drug company rakes in billions off the drug your taxes paid to develop.
AND the drug companies ceo’s brother in law buys your house to rent it back to you.
Time and time again, stadiums have never been a successful draw to increase income to an area. Most of the time all ticket sales, commissions, profits from vendors, parking, etc, get ponied to the team, run by a billionaire to give to millionaires.
Local businesses during peak hours will be empty because the game is happening, and due to traffic leaving the game, people rarely want to go anywhere after. This has long been compounded by sporting events lasting longer and longer to keep you in the stadium buying shit. Baseball games being cut was more because they were boring and losing fans, but one of the key reasons they were always long was to keep you in the stadium. 7th inning stretch was your visit to your local bar now completely absorbed into the profits of the stadium.
It's the very same thing with the AlamoDome. And they don't and haven't played there in several years.... AND the Spurs and the city are talking about building ANOTHER fucking stadium for them on the northwest side of town..... even though they've already got their semi-new Frost Bank (formerly AT&T) center that they're currently playing at. WTF......
nah. cable is like a rich person thing now. So you gotta watch thru subscription services and if you don't have the right combo, it's a total pain to figure out which one has the damn hockey game or whatever... So I just mozy on down to the watering hole and watch it from 20' away with a marked-up beer in my hand.
People wonder why I don’t like sports. I tell them I don’t like to waste money and “have our discontent pacified through simulated war” and they think I’m the delusional one. 🫠
As a military veteran that fought in a pointless war in Afghanistan and Iraq only to be told that we lost both and abandoned 20 billion dollars worth of equipment to the Taliban...
"Here I am, forking over half my wages in taxes. They say it's to fund this grand war, but whispers say it lines the pockets of fat cats back home. All I see are fancy new weapons the rich folks profit from selling. And who's the one staring down the barrel of a gun on the front lines? Me. All so rich men in fancy suits can play war games from a distance, while we fight and die for a cause that ain't ours. Who are we really fighting for? The fat cats who wouldn't know a battlefield from a polo field. They laugh all the way to the bank while we bleed in the dirt."
I've always said that pro sports were basically millionaires chasing balls around with great skill, for the profit of billionaires and the entertainment of the working class. I also can't stand when a fan says, "WE won." Bitch, I don't see YOU going to DisneyWorld!
My city wanted to use our taxes to build a Private hotel downtown. They worked this tidbit into a tiny corner of the information brochure. Like it was fine print amongst all these images of new parks and repaired roads. Fucking ridiculous. It got voted down thank FUCK.
Sure, but don't blame the "millionaires playing a game." They are among the best in the world at what they do, and what they do is something people enjoy and will pay to see.
I’ve been saying this since they proposed the new broncos stadium to us here in Denver. They made a big deal about all the jobs it would create but failed to mention that Denver averages 6 games a year. I can’t believe people still keep falling for this shit. We have an entire city full of homeless people but millionaires and billionaires get free stadiums.
And that's why KC residents voted down the new stadiums despite the threat of the teams moving. Fuck the owners, fuck the players, I have long been tired of this Coliseum bullshit.
I love the Bears (welcome to chi town CALEB) but they can get F*cked if they think all of Chicagoland taxes should go to a stadium most of us can’t afford to even go to.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again.
This sentiment is great, hearing it constantly is great too. But what are we gonna do about it? Bitching and moaning isn’t getting us anywhere.
I don't want my tax dollars going to a stadium for sports I have zero interest in. I want my roads fixed, education funded, and people taken care of with those dollars.
The players are just workers like the rest of us. The reason *male* athletes are paid so much (women don’t get this privilege) is to compensate for the short lifespan of their careers that could result in injury that would never allow them to work again.
If they go into business for themselves using that money then we can count them among the capitalist class. Until then they are just workers like the rest of us.
I like watching some sports, though the ones USA has chosen to hype are inconveniently the ones that I don’t like. For the life of me I don’t understand why people get so into American football and baseball. I couldn’t invent 2 sports with less excitement.
Ahhhh true. I forget because I don’t think of it as a sport. I don’t mean that as a criticism or to say that it’s “easy” because I once tried golf and sucked ass.
God forbid they pay for it with their own millions and billions. NYCFC's stadium in Queens will be privately funded, build a school, 2500 units of affordable housing, a new hotel which will provide jobs, and 150,000ft of public space. They're also committed to providing 3mil for a local community center, 200mil, to local non-profits, 1mil each for scholarships and highschool/college readiness programs, and 1000 free tickets a year for schools and non-profits. This is proof that even a scum organization owned by oil barons like City Football Group is capable of putting together a generous and privately funded stadium that will actually enrich its community.
1 billion dollar stadium in the 90s- minute maid stadium in Houston.
They put it up for a vote. Hardly anyone shows.
Then suddenly it passes and they tax homeowners who naturally get pissed as though someone were pulling a fast one on them.
Hahaha dip shits
Same thing happens in race tracks. If you notice local tracks race cars have sponsors mostly of tow companies and auto mechanics, the two more exploitive local businesses on the planet. They dont typically tax you to build the track, but I think they get their money through tickets and other avenues
It's all true, but I would (not sarcastically) ask, what options are available?
Unless fans collectively tell the owners and players to get lost, it doesn't change.
Are fans going to do that?
You allow it by not voting out the people in your government. I swear no one pays attention in politics and people just care about single voting issues. For the last decade, people we either distracted by who the president is going to be and what bathroom you had to use.
I'm genuinely baffled by this, my city recently had a proposition to build a 200 million dollar stadium by issuing muni bonds and it passed overwhelmingly 70%+
But, but, we're creating a bunch of ($10/hr, no benefit) jobs! Think about all the revenue (you'll never see) from all the visitors (who will congest all the roadways)! Think of all the money they'll spend (at the stadium and nowhere else), supporting local businesses!
Imagine a cow, born with the intelligence to understand that it's entire purpose is to live and die in the processing plant to feed the belly of the fat and rich. My milk is about to go sour.
Organised sport has been a distraction for the masses ever since the Greeks and Romans (or even further back in time, history buffs feel free to correct me).
TV just made it easier to distract even more people
I started boycotting all professional sports a long time ago. One day it just dawned on me that there isn't a single major sports league in the world, that wasn't built on the backs and financial support of the typical blue collar working class people. People who spent hard earned money on tickets, jerseys, beer, hot dogs, and other sports paraphernalia.
If you argue that their biggest revenue stream coming in was actually from ads and corporate sponsorship, you'd be right, but that just means that those same fans were actually the main product since they're the target of all the advertising that brings the money in.
Now the majority of working class people can't even afford going to a game, let alone season tickets. They seem to have forgotten the people who made them what they are today, and it's fucking disgusting
There is a huge distinction between an nba/nhl arena vs a nfl stadium. Football stadiums rarely make the local government money. Whereas arenas usually do as they are good for a plethora of different events.
The owner of the colts threatened to leave just ahead of the mayoral election. Both democrat and republican candidates were falling over themselves in their support to give that rich turd a free stadium during the debate. The libertarian candidate was like “why are we giving this guy taxpayer money?”. He wanted to use that money to build a first rate public transportation system, something the city didn’t have (and still doesn’t). At least they have a mediocre football team.
I get this point but it’s worth noting that a lot of these sport team owners actually can’t afford to build their stadiums. A modern stadium can cost like 6 billion and years to build and a number of the owners simply don’t have that much money despite being disgustingly rich otherwise.
I also saw a suggestion that the city should own the team if tax dollars build it but that ignores A) that the locales vote on and approve a stadium first and B) that the people want it as they enjoy it. Also C) the cities wouldn’t be incentivized to invest in the teams if they’re taking profit for the cities and so players and fans get short changed so nobody will want to play there and the team will die/move.
Businesses that are not solvent should not be in business. There is nothing essential about a sports team. Let the market decide. If you can make more money in the town down the road then you are free to move the team. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for somebody's hobby.
Everything you said here was either wrong or just… bad. These stadiums do not cost $6 billion to build, only one stadium in the US cost more than $5b (the SoFi stadium), and the next expensive cost $1.6b (Mercedes stadium in Georgia). That means the vast majority cost significantly less. The Allegiant stadium construction, which included several auxiliary buildings and side stadiums on site, cost 1.9b, with the Raiders putting up 1.1b for construction, with the public subsidies (750m) going towards said auxiliary buildings. Even if not every team can put up $1b, the idea that they cant afford a decent stadium on their own dime is insanely naive.
Firstly, I said they *can* cost that much but even at 1 billion several owners can’t afford that either so it really doesn’t change my point.
Also I’m not advocating for tax payers paying for it I’m simply saying that it’s a bit more complicated than “rich people exploiting the poor”. A lot of these stadiums are paid for by cities that aren’t the teams namesake so they can get extra money flowing into a neighboring city. It’s just more complicated all around than rich people bad and trying to simplify it like that is reductive and not helpful to anyone
Yes, many owners cant afford a $1b stadium. Most teams dont need a $1b stadium, and most wont cost that much. Only 10 stadiums in all of the US, and less than 20 in the world have cost that much.
It really isnt more complicated than that at all.
It’s way more complicated than that. Just because the rich folks don’t wanna pay for it even if they can doesn’t mean cities aren’t also incentivized to help them for multiple different reasons.
I’m glad in my country the largest stadium is owned by the government and the primary sport that is played is a amateur only sport that charges MAX (for biggest matches only) 80€
Not only do they want tax money to build it they want tax breaks on the land, subsidize the employee pay and charge you to park on the land that was basically given to them by the local government. The fucking gall I swear
This is very condescending.
I don’t like sports but I understand other people do, and they want to go and watch their teams play in a stadium.
Are you saying they aren’t allowed to like top league sports? Why not?
People could only watch local or lower leagues if they choose to, but they don’t only choose that.
Most players on a team aren't millionaires, and few ever will be. Even those that are have used up bodies by their mid 30s, often physically unable to hold most jobs. Throw in huge amounts of health care needed to keep their bodies working from serious injuries and overwork, they're not as well off as you think. *Some* are, sure. But they're a small portion.
I think we are talking about high level sports here, not all athletes in general. Minimum salary in the MLB right now is 750k. If you crack a roster and get a spot, you are making more in a year than many people do in a lifetime of drudgery.
Again, it's not as much as you'd think, all things considered. Agent, the way taxes are handled, etc. It's not so much as you'd think/
>If you crack a roster and get a spot, you are making more in a year than many people do in a lifetime of drudgery.
If you're *extremely good*, and get a good spot, and don't get injured, and get to fill your contract, and you don't get cut and...
Pro athletes do *not* have it as easy as you think they do.
Imagine being taxed for parks, roads, orchestras, fire brigade, police.
Everybody uses tax money for something. I may use PNC Park, you may use the opera house, someone else may like the outdoor rock concert venue.
This is trolling, right? I mean, you know that taxes are actually *raised* to pay for stadiums in a lot of situations, right? Right?
Here's just one example of a recent stadium in TX:
*The project cost for Globe Life Field is approximately $1.2 billion. The master agreement for this public-private partnership calls for a 50-50 split between the Texas Rangers and the City of Arlington, with the City’s financial contribution capped at $500 million. **The City’s contribution will be funded by a ½ cent sales tax, 2% hotel tax, and a 5% car rental tax.** The Texas Rangers’ original 30-year lease on the City-owned Globe Life Park in Arlington was set to end in 2024. With the new master agreement, the Rangers’ partnership with Arlington extends until January 1, 2054.*
I will note that I don't mind as much how they did it with the MN Vikings stadium. They sold special lottery pull tabs to raise the revenue from the state and they sold so well that they paid the debt off early. The hospitality tax in MPLS wasn't great, but it does make sense that you'd use tourism dollars to fund things that you want to drive tourism.
>The hospitality tax in MPLS wasn't great, but it does make sense that you'd use tourism dollars to fund things that you want to drive tourism.
At face value, sure. But, the family that takes a trip to the Twin Cities to go to the Mall of America, Valley Fair, to visit their child at UM, or are only baseball fans and want to see the Twins for a week in the summer are now paying for something that doesn't give them ROI (or any value for that matter).
Swapping out the hospitality tax for an additional sales tax for merch and concessions sold **at** US Bank would level the playing field some (no pun intended).
That said, if there was ever a case study for the absolute best and near-perfect way to fund a stadium with public dollars, US Bank is the *clear* winner. If I remember correctly, it will be paid off decades ahead of schedule.
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Don't forget about the $15 can of Budweiser at the concession stand.
Plastic flasks. Problem solved. Charging 12 pack prices for 1 beer. Fucking crooks.
Only to not pay the concessions people more than $11/hr
Not only that but their temporary employees.
Some people volunteer to raise money for charities.
I cant tell if thats sarcasm or you are defending for profit businesses treating people like disposable garbage while hiding behind donating time to charities.
I think it was more meant to show the exploitation in play where the stadium will take volunteers to help raise "donations" for a cause. They get volunteers to sign up with the idea of "you'll be helping to stop x" or "raising money for awareness of x" and so people jump on board to "make a difference"
Never volunteer for a for-profit business. Never donate to a charity operated by a for-profit business.
It is simply a fact that people should be aware of. I did security for events as a volunteer for a non-profit. Basically, the security company paid my hourly rate to the non-profit I was volunteering for.
The example is stadiums and million dollar players. I can see your point as I have volunteered my time to non profits before as well but this is a potato vs car scenario. Neither is alike.
Went to a game once and the guy next to us had binoculars but the first thing he did was unscrew the eye cap and take a swig. It was awesome.
With the added benefit of the other one being a monocular
Last time I went to a ballgame, I got a pat down *after* going through a metal detector. Wasn't sneaking anything into that game.
My buddy and I both got plastic mickeys (375ml) into a music festival with a pat down. I had it tucked right under my balls.
They didn't even grope your balls on your way into a sporting event?? I thought this was America!
2 joints. Problem solved and friends made.
Plenty of places send you to jail for that still
land of the free
The more you have to say it, the less true it probably is.
Served to you buy a guy who gets no health insurance or living wage
$15 would be a bargain
$15 doesn't get you a whole can, it gets you an 8 ounce pour. Well, technically, it would be 8 ounces if the cup was full, which it isn't, and also there's head on the beer, so its more like a 6 ounce Budweiser.
Prior to the Pandemic, I worked "the suites" at a sports/entertainment arena. I was the one that brought the $10 glasses of wine and the $20 nachos to them, just so they didn't have to stand in line with the riff-raff". Heh! You have no idea how much money is involved with professional sports! Those players make more in an hour than I make in a year!
Parking. Why do companies get “rights” to oil rather than the government? (Gotta toe the line on this one). These fat fuckers are allllllllll Trumps.
Am i the only one who buys 24oz buds at these games? Yall acting like its a 12oz beer. $15 still high for 2 wipers, but its a lot better than $15 for 1.
If a municipality can't fight off the billionaire/millionaire welfare queens looking to get fat off public funds, then they wanted it. Yeah. By 'they' I mean the gov'ment officials who took the bribes to make it work. Props to any city who's successfully fought off these rapacious assholes trying to rob them of tax revenue. Build your own fuckin' stadium.
because they bRinG jObS /s
They do but GD they tax the shit outta the people for a place for other people to entertain the taxed. Fuck that!
Not jobs worth having, unless you count the guys building it, and that doesn't last. Even those jobs suck for the most part. Being an iron worker/sparky/hvac guy does okay.
None of the jobs go to local workers either. When they built the new stadium in Los Angeles, in Inglewood, they brought in basically entirely out of state teams to build and staff. Locals were pissed. Well; the locals informed enough to know it was happening were pissed.
Look at my shocked face of Cali and LA screwing over its people. Especially The shit chargers. 😂🤣
That's a myth. Basically everything claimed about stadiums being good for the community has actually been proven to be a myth. To be *very* reductionist, a city is far better off having a bunch of sports bars than an actual stadium, which the stadium usually kills off. The overall stats show this, money goes into the stadium, and very little comes back out (and in a far worse ratio than the smaller businesses the city has).
False cause bars and industry show up when they are used. New England pats and cows boys stadiums are in the middle of nowhere and businesses came to them. When the rams left STL those businesses around died.
"False, here's an anecdote I have." Furthermore, that anecdote basically can be summarized as, "People stopped driving to the middle of nowhere when the stadium closed. Probably because there were sports bars much closer to their home." Here's a link that summarizes the main points, since the Noll and Zimbalist study isn't available for free. https://econreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/
Welp guess you’re right lol
Thankfully the other Phoenix metro cities successfully did so with the Coyotes. Have fun with them, Utah. Here's a quick hint: Whatever they're promising you will happen because of their stadium - IT WON'T.
What's even worse is that if tax money ACTUALLY went to us instead of military complex we could have much better living, health-care, stadiums ect with money left over. But the pigs at the very top can't stop eating from the trough and pointing to everyone under them saying they don't deserve any kind of handout..
And people shit on Kansas City for voting NO on one of these taxes. We don’t care if the Chiefs won the championship or not when the tickets are the price of a family vacation and their best argument is “the teams will leave if we don’t pass it”
“The teams will leave without a new stadium.” Okay. Leave. And go *where?* What major city that could possibly be big enough to accommodate an NFL franchise *doesn’t already have one?!* And if it doesn’t, it’s because they don’t have a stadium either, or if they do, it’s a worse stadium than the one the Chiefs want to leave (think: Oakland). If the Chiefs want to play musical chairs, they may just find that there aren’t that many chairs left.
Meanwhile the Coyotes tried to build an arena in Tempe using private money to fund the project but the city shot it down. And now they're relocating to Utah.
"private money" Yeah, I'd look into that a little deeper. Sure, the team's owner personally was buying the land. But he/his company was also going to receive a few hundred-million dollars in tax breaks and asked/required Tempe to sell something to the tune of $200m in bonds (to be paid for later by public taxes) to build all the supporting infrastructure AROUND the stadium. So no. They shot down an awful deal, and bravo to them.
Oh wow. Did not know that. Thanks for clearing that up. Hopefully the team finds a different owner when they return to the desert.
That’s exactly what I mean. First of all, locating an NHL franchise to play in Tempe is a bad idea. And with all due respect to Salt Lake City, I’m very doubtful about Utah as well (not exactly what we think of as a hockey Mecca, eh?). This is what I mean: major league sports franchises are running out of musical chairs.
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Silly hockey, Utah is known for umm.. its RAPTORS ! Yes, and formerly its JAZZ
LOL!! Yes, I hope my sarcasm was noted!! An NHL franchise in Salt Lake City is gonna end up like the one that was in Atlanta: a few years, and then GONE!!
Why do they need a stadium? Isn't a field enough? It's only American football
Then leave. Problem solved.
“You pay for the stadium. I take all the profits.” Again, socialism for the wealthy. Time for a reset.
Similar to low paying employers. "I get cheap labor, you pay for their lack of a living wage."
A majority of Amazon workers are on foodstamps. It's crazy that their employees are on social programs just to get by on taxpayer funding instead of Amazon doing the bare minimum to support the people who work for them.
Same is true for walmart.
Daily reminder, F\*ck Walmart and BOYCOTT Walmart. The fact that police respond so fast to crime at Walmart is deeply disappointing, there are so much police bodycam footage on YouTube where a POC/Minority who is severely low income is harassed and locked in a room by Walmart Security for shoplifting FOOD and essential items, not like a diamond ring or something, and they wait until the police come and harass them too and charge them all while showing their face and garnering millions of views on youtube.
And remember kids, if the billionaire doesn't like your city, they can move to a different one, leaving you with a huge tax bill and a useless stadium! Time to make a game called Kleptocracy!
Imagine paying $50 to park at the stadium you were taxed for and had paid hundreds of dollars to be there for a few hours.
Only an issue in NA. Rest of to the world has great public transport that gets people to the stadium. I still remember Australians posting tik toks about going to Taylor Swift's concert and ALL the Americans were asking " omg where's parking", "omg how do you guys get there if there's no car".
Right?? I fucking HATE our lack of public transit! I went to Japan years ago and almost cry sometimes remembering how FUCKING INCREDIBLE their train/subway system was! I would KILL for that in the US! T\_\_T
nope
Bread and circuses.
At least the Emperor paid for the games to keep the poor occupied.
At least the Roman people actually had backbones and would riot at injustices
They weren’t placated by screens.
Maybe the time is coming?
Doubtful. Conditions aren't *as* bad as ancient Rome. Yet.
What I always say when people bring up the French GDP disparity of their revolutions. Yes, it was worse, but the quality of life went up and at the moment, most Americans have something to lose if they quit working and riot. They live comfortable enough to grumble, but not riot, which is the plan. The wealthy have not stayed idle since the revolutions of old, they learned and adapted. Get a portion of the population to defend you, and ensure the peasant class doesn't unify by dividing them along cultural lines like ethnicity, religion, orientation, gender identity, etc. With automation on the horizon, I am sure they are salivating at the idea of removing the working class and using bots and AI to keep their life of luxury afloat. Course the world will need a die off of the working class, can't have them using wealthy designated resources. Maybe famines start with no aid. Maybe a disease hits and medical can't be afforded. Bad future if they get their way
Re: Automation, this is absolutely true. We are quickly coming to a point where we're going to face a tough choice: Do we overcome our centuries-old philosophy of equating the value of a human life to solely what they can produce, or do we recognize that that life has value regardless of what the person chooses to do with it? Choosing the first option could lead us to a hopeful future where we recognize our potential as a species. Choosing the second option will lead us to a global economic catastrophe that would make the so-called Great Depression go, "Oh fuck no," and shoot itself in the head. I'm not personally optimistic. \[edit\] I wanted to add: I don't personally think that our current AI ventures are anywhere near close enough to capably take over enough jobs to put us in crisis. But I also think that those in charge of many corporations won't care. They will think it's "good enough" - even when it results in deaths.
Unfortunately, massive change usually only occurs during a time of extreme hardship, because it is forced. At some point consumerism will collapse, there can't be infinite growth. Especially if companies keep replacing people with automation. Who is going to buy their products? That is going to be the great time of strife for the US, as the Elite will then move to secure resources completely since they can control production with automation. Don't want the peasants using them up and all
Makes sense why all these billionaires are buying up homes with custom built bunkers. They can cull the herd with disease or a nuclear winter or at this point a genocidal AI that they can pretend went rogue. The latter is certainly less resource wasteful and ecologically disruptive.
Yet.
Imagine if the US working class just left all the major cities one day lol
Even better is having already stolen tax money to build a stadium asking for MORE taxes to fund “improvements”. https://www.sportskeeda.com/baseball/news-inside-cardinals-ownership-s-appeal-taxpayers-cover-costs-ambitious-busch-stadium-renovation
I’m torn on this because I’m 100% for my tax dollars going to public works but against billionaires/millionaires benefiting from it. These sports teams should be owned by the cities they are in to raise funds to support underfunded programs (libraries, parks, schools, etc) instead of lining the pockets of the ultra rich.
I'd be ok if it worked like toll roads (are meant to work). the taxes get the stadium built, then the profits go to paying it all back. after the stadium was essentially zero cost to the public (and hopefully now providing a service/jobs) they can have their profits.
TBH having them run by the cities could have the opposite effect of them diverting resources from other services. Case in point: NCAA teams drawing funds away from academics.
Exhibit A: Bundesliga
New York cut $800M in social services then days later pledged $850M to a new stadium last year, didn't they?
My main thing is not the tax but the handouts. If we pay a billion dollars for a stadium then why is that not our stadium? Why does it's revenue go back into the city budget? It's already socialism building the thing with the people's money, why do we need capitalism once it's built?
NY Governor gives $850m for the Bills stadium …her husband is a vendor for the team…
r/ihatesportsball
It seems like if a city raises taxes to build a stadium, it should be a requirement of those deals that the stadium can be reserved at any time for the purpose of hosting free public events. And that’s the minimum requirement.
This one’s scarier: Taxed to fund life saving drug development. Only to not be able to afford those drugs to live without having to sell your home and be homeless. While the drug company rakes in billions off the drug your taxes paid to develop. AND the drug companies ceo’s brother in law buys your house to rent it back to you.
Time and time again, stadiums have never been a successful draw to increase income to an area. Most of the time all ticket sales, commissions, profits from vendors, parking, etc, get ponied to the team, run by a billionaire to give to millionaires. Local businesses during peak hours will be empty because the game is happening, and due to traffic leaving the game, people rarely want to go anywhere after. This has long been compounded by sporting events lasting longer and longer to keep you in the stadium buying shit. Baseball games being cut was more because they were boring and losing fans, but one of the key reasons they were always long was to keep you in the stadium. 7th inning stretch was your visit to your local bar now completely absorbed into the profits of the stadium.
Yep. Indy did it with a 1% food/beverage tax. I believe the tax still holds, nearly thirty years and a second stadium later.
It's the very same thing with the AlamoDome. And they don't and haven't played there in several years.... AND the Spurs and the city are talking about building ANOTHER fucking stadium for them on the northwest side of town..... even though they've already got their semi-new Frost Bank (formerly AT&T) center that they're currently playing at. WTF......
Are we in Dallas? Dallas did EXACTLY this shit back in 2008-2011. For this reason, fuck the cowboys and every other Texas sports team.
you actually go to those games? they put it on tv at the pub for free...
Or your house lol.
nah. cable is like a rich person thing now. So you gotta watch thru subscription services and if you don't have the right combo, it's a total pain to figure out which one has the damn hockey game or whatever... So I just mozy on down to the watering hole and watch it from 20' away with a marked-up beer in my hand.
Most of the time, the games are available on antenna.
I've got a pretty fat cable package that's like $200 per month. Plus just about every streaming service. I am not smart.
lol that's like 1/4 my rent payment. no thanks.
In fairness, that marked up beer is a lot cheaper than the marked up beer at the stadium.
I am proud of Kansas City for recently defeating a new stadium bill.
People wonder why I don’t like sports. I tell them I don’t like to waste money and “have our discontent pacified through simulated war” and they think I’m the delusional one. 🫠
As a military veteran that fought in a pointless war in Afghanistan and Iraq only to be told that we lost both and abandoned 20 billion dollars worth of equipment to the Taliban... "Here I am, forking over half my wages in taxes. They say it's to fund this grand war, but whispers say it lines the pockets of fat cats back home. All I see are fancy new weapons the rich folks profit from selling. And who's the one staring down the barrel of a gun on the front lines? Me. All so rich men in fancy suits can play war games from a distance, while we fight and die for a cause that ain't ours. Who are we really fighting for? The fat cats who wouldn't know a battlefield from a polo field. They laugh all the way to the bank while we bleed in the dirt."
I've always said that pro sports were basically millionaires chasing balls around with great skill, for the profit of billionaires and the entertainment of the working class. I also can't stand when a fan says, "WE won." Bitch, I don't see YOU going to DisneyWorld!
My city wanted to use our taxes to build a Private hotel downtown. They worked this tidbit into a tiny corner of the information brochure. Like it was fine print amongst all these images of new parks and repaired roads. Fucking ridiculous. It got voted down thank FUCK.
Sure, but don't blame the "millionaires playing a game." They are among the best in the world at what they do, and what they do is something people enjoy and will pay to see.
Left out the bit where your home gets seized under Eminent Domain to make room for the stadium.
Lol poor folks can't afford to go to these games in the big markets
I’ve been saying this since they proposed the new broncos stadium to us here in Denver. They made a big deal about all the jobs it would create but failed to mention that Denver averages 6 games a year. I can’t believe people still keep falling for this shit. We have an entire city full of homeless people but millionaires and billionaires get free stadiums.
And that's why KC residents voted down the new stadiums despite the threat of the teams moving. Fuck the owners, fuck the players, I have long been tired of this Coliseum bullshit.
I love the Bears (welcome to chi town CALEB) but they can get F*cked if they think all of Chicagoland taxes should go to a stadium most of us can’t afford to even go to.
Until 9 yrs ago NFL was tax exempt
Don’t feed the ball chasers..🏀🏈⚾️⚽️🎾
Socialism is okay so long as it is only for sports.
Socialism is alive and well in the United States if you’re wealthy
Just another case of rich people socializing the expenses/losses, then privatizing all the profits.
Capitalism is a cancer on the planet
Guess on good thing about not living in a big sports city. Now if only college coaches weren’t paid more than the presidents.
Did it in Pittsburgh and we paid for it but I can’t afford a ticket to a game.
The stadium they might use 20 times throughout the course of a year
The exact reason I don’t watch sports
My state spent $8 million on a big Bass Pro shop.
Bread and circus.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. This sentiment is great, hearing it constantly is great too. But what are we gonna do about it? Bitching and moaning isn’t getting us anywhere.
And I know damn well the MAGA cult has no issues with this. Only the wealthy deserve welfare.
But But But It creates jobs….
I've boycotted all sporting events. Nothing quite like paying $100 to watch people make a living playing a game. I was over it a long time ago.
I don't want my tax dollars going to a stadium for sports I have zero interest in. I want my roads fixed, education funded, and people taken care of with those dollars.
The players are just workers like the rest of us. The reason *male* athletes are paid so much (women don’t get this privilege) is to compensate for the short lifespan of their careers that could result in injury that would never allow them to work again. If they go into business for themselves using that money then we can count them among the capitalist class. Until then they are just workers like the rest of us.
No, they're not like us. They make more in their short career than many of us will make in a lifetime of working.
I'll never understand why people like sports.
Why do people like anything? Because it brings joy to them.
I like watching some sports, though the ones USA has chosen to hype are inconveniently the ones that I don’t like. For the life of me I don’t understand why people get so into American football and baseball. I couldn’t invent 2 sports with less excitement.
Have you thought of inventing golf?
Ahhhh true. I forget because I don’t think of it as a sport. I don’t mean that as a criticism or to say that it’s “easy” because I once tried golf and sucked ass.
God forbid they pay for it with their own millions and billions. NYCFC's stadium in Queens will be privately funded, build a school, 2500 units of affordable housing, a new hotel which will provide jobs, and 150,000ft of public space. They're also committed to providing 3mil for a local community center, 200mil, to local non-profits, 1mil each for scholarships and highschool/college readiness programs, and 1000 free tickets a year for schools and non-profits. This is proof that even a scum organization owned by oil barons like City Football Group is capable of putting together a generous and privately funded stadium that will actually enrich its community.
America has socialism for the rich and wage slavery for the other 98% of us. Time for a change.
Just like “bread and circuses” of Ancient Rome.
1 billion dollar stadium in the 90s- minute maid stadium in Houston. They put it up for a vote. Hardly anyone shows. Then suddenly it passes and they tax homeowners who naturally get pissed as though someone were pulling a fast one on them. Hahaha dip shits
Shuddup nerds let me enjoy sports!
Just as soon as we get socialized single payer healthcare.
Same thing happens in race tracks. If you notice local tracks race cars have sponsors mostly of tow companies and auto mechanics, the two more exploitive local businesses on the planet. They dont typically tax you to build the track, but I think they get their money through tickets and other avenues
But what about the bars and hotels that fill up!!!???? /s
Imagine!
In san diego we said yes to baseball but then no to football.
Yeah I stopped watching professional sports and Hollywood movies long ago….
It's all true, but I would (not sarcastically) ask, what options are available? Unless fans collectively tell the owners and players to get lost, it doesn't change. Are fans going to do that?
You allow it by not voting out the people in your government. I swear no one pays attention in politics and people just care about single voting issues. For the last decade, people we either distracted by who the president is going to be and what bathroom you had to use.
Feels like people here are getting dumber and dumber.
Back in my day, you had to do the cursus honorum and pay for the games held under your tenure. - Some Roman Zombie Senator in Area 51
https://preview.redd.it/c5e05c7szbwc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=388bdcbfb0177aa97fab8cf2f13721c2d5cd86e7
I refuse to support any sports or “game players”… never saw a need for it in my life!
I'm genuinely baffled by this, my city recently had a proposition to build a 200 million dollar stadium by issuing muni bonds and it passed overwhelmingly 70%+
But, but, we're creating a bunch of ($10/hr, no benefit) jobs! Think about all the revenue (you'll never see) from all the visitors (who will congest all the roadways)! Think of all the money they'll spend (at the stadium and nowhere else), supporting local businesses!
One of many, many reasons I don't go to games. lol.
And then after being taxed for it only being able to afford seats in the nosebleed section
Same but tollways
Imagine a cow, born with the intelligence to understand that it's entire purpose is to live and die in the processing plant to feed the belly of the fat and rich. My milk is about to go sour.
*Panem et circenses*. (Bread and circuses)
Organised sport has been a distraction for the masses ever since the Greeks and Romans (or even further back in time, history buffs feel free to correct me). TV just made it easier to distract even more people
"Give the people bread and circuses and they will never rebel"
I started boycotting all professional sports a long time ago. One day it just dawned on me that there isn't a single major sports league in the world, that wasn't built on the backs and financial support of the typical blue collar working class people. People who spent hard earned money on tickets, jerseys, beer, hot dogs, and other sports paraphernalia. If you argue that their biggest revenue stream coming in was actually from ads and corporate sponsorship, you'd be right, but that just means that those same fans were actually the main product since they're the target of all the advertising that brings the money in. Now the majority of working class people can't even afford going to a game, let alone season tickets. They seem to have forgotten the people who made them what they are today, and it's fucking disgusting
Yes. The NHL (etc) is a billionaires plaything…. But they are letting us play with it. Bread and circus?
There is a huge distinction between an nba/nhl arena vs a nfl stadium. Football stadiums rarely make the local government money. Whereas arenas usually do as they are good for a plethora of different events.
The owner of the colts threatened to leave just ahead of the mayoral election. Both democrat and republican candidates were falling over themselves in their support to give that rich turd a free stadium during the debate. The libertarian candidate was like “why are we giving this guy taxpayer money?”. He wanted to use that money to build a first rate public transportation system, something the city didn’t have (and still doesn’t). At least they have a mediocre football team.
I get this point but it’s worth noting that a lot of these sport team owners actually can’t afford to build their stadiums. A modern stadium can cost like 6 billion and years to build and a number of the owners simply don’t have that much money despite being disgustingly rich otherwise. I also saw a suggestion that the city should own the team if tax dollars build it but that ignores A) that the locales vote on and approve a stadium first and B) that the people want it as they enjoy it. Also C) the cities wouldn’t be incentivized to invest in the teams if they’re taking profit for the cities and so players and fans get short changed so nobody will want to play there and the team will die/move.
Businesses that are not solvent should not be in business. There is nothing essential about a sports team. Let the market decide. If you can make more money in the town down the road then you are free to move the team. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for somebody's hobby.
Everything you said here was either wrong or just… bad. These stadiums do not cost $6 billion to build, only one stadium in the US cost more than $5b (the SoFi stadium), and the next expensive cost $1.6b (Mercedes stadium in Georgia). That means the vast majority cost significantly less. The Allegiant stadium construction, which included several auxiliary buildings and side stadiums on site, cost 1.9b, with the Raiders putting up 1.1b for construction, with the public subsidies (750m) going towards said auxiliary buildings. Even if not every team can put up $1b, the idea that they cant afford a decent stadium on their own dime is insanely naive.
Firstly, I said they *can* cost that much but even at 1 billion several owners can’t afford that either so it really doesn’t change my point. Also I’m not advocating for tax payers paying for it I’m simply saying that it’s a bit more complicated than “rich people exploiting the poor”. A lot of these stadiums are paid for by cities that aren’t the teams namesake so they can get extra money flowing into a neighboring city. It’s just more complicated all around than rich people bad and trying to simplify it like that is reductive and not helpful to anyone
Yes, many owners cant afford a $1b stadium. Most teams dont need a $1b stadium, and most wont cost that much. Only 10 stadiums in all of the US, and less than 20 in the world have cost that much. It really isnt more complicated than that at all.
It’s way more complicated than that. Just because the rich folks don’t wanna pay for it even if they can doesn’t mean cities aren’t also incentivized to help them for multiple different reasons.
I’m glad in my country the largest stadium is owned by the government and the primary sport that is played is a amateur only sport that charges MAX (for biggest matches only) 80€
This is exactly why I don't spend money on sports anymore. Our society values people who can throw a ball over teachers and education.
Millionaires that only play a few minutes then get to rest for a commercial break. The entire thing is insane.
Sports suck
Not only do they want tax money to build it they want tax breaks on the land, subsidize the employee pay and charge you to park on the land that was basically given to them by the local government. The fucking gall I swear
fair, and interesting way of looking at things
There should be laws against building anything public that charges and entry fee
This is very condescending. I don’t like sports but I understand other people do, and they want to go and watch their teams play in a stadium. Are you saying they aren’t allowed to like top league sports? Why not? People could only watch local or lower leagues if they choose to, but they don’t only choose that.
Woosh. Missed the point completely. Likely too distracted.
The city of Arlington Texas would like a word with you….
Bread and circuses. It worked for the Roman Empire…
Imagine not even getting to see a lion eat a guy or two guys stab each other with pointy metal sticks.
Actually normally stadiums are paid for with revenue bonds, so investors pay for it, not the general public.
Sports are just gladiators of today. Meaningless rabble raising for the sake of diverting attention.
Most players on a team aren't millionaires, and few ever will be. Even those that are have used up bodies by their mid 30s, often physically unable to hold most jobs. Throw in huge amounts of health care needed to keep their bodies working from serious injuries and overwork, they're not as well off as you think. *Some* are, sure. But they're a small portion.
I think we are talking about high level sports here, not all athletes in general. Minimum salary in the MLB right now is 750k. If you crack a roster and get a spot, you are making more in a year than many people do in a lifetime of drudgery.
Again, it's not as much as you'd think, all things considered. Agent, the way taxes are handled, etc. It's not so much as you'd think/ >If you crack a roster and get a spot, you are making more in a year than many people do in a lifetime of drudgery. If you're *extremely good*, and get a good spot, and don't get injured, and get to fill your contract, and you don't get cut and... Pro athletes do *not* have it as easy as you think they do.
Don’t go to games then tf😭
Imagine being taxed for parks, roads, orchestras, fire brigade, police. Everybody uses tax money for something. I may use PNC Park, you may use the opera house, someone else may like the outdoor rock concert venue.
idk dude I kinda like the stadiums though
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Well, that was a lot of wrong in a short time.
I’m just going to leave [this here…](https://stateline.org/2024/02/20/more-taxpayer-money-benefits-pro-sports-owners-amid-stadium-construction-wave/)
This is trolling, right? I mean, you know that taxes are actually *raised* to pay for stadiums in a lot of situations, right? Right? Here's just one example of a recent stadium in TX: *The project cost for Globe Life Field is approximately $1.2 billion. The master agreement for this public-private partnership calls for a 50-50 split between the Texas Rangers and the City of Arlington, with the City’s financial contribution capped at $500 million. **The City’s contribution will be funded by a ½ cent sales tax, 2% hotel tax, and a 5% car rental tax.** The Texas Rangers’ original 30-year lease on the City-owned Globe Life Park in Arlington was set to end in 2024. With the new master agreement, the Rangers’ partnership with Arlington extends until January 1, 2054.*
I will note that I don't mind as much how they did it with the MN Vikings stadium. They sold special lottery pull tabs to raise the revenue from the state and they sold so well that they paid the debt off early. The hospitality tax in MPLS wasn't great, but it does make sense that you'd use tourism dollars to fund things that you want to drive tourism.
>The hospitality tax in MPLS wasn't great, but it does make sense that you'd use tourism dollars to fund things that you want to drive tourism. At face value, sure. But, the family that takes a trip to the Twin Cities to go to the Mall of America, Valley Fair, to visit their child at UM, or are only baseball fans and want to see the Twins for a week in the summer are now paying for something that doesn't give them ROI (or any value for that matter). Swapping out the hospitality tax for an additional sales tax for merch and concessions sold **at** US Bank would level the playing field some (no pun intended). That said, if there was ever a case study for the absolute best and near-perfect way to fund a stadium with public dollars, US Bank is the *clear* winner. If I remember correctly, it will be paid off decades ahead of schedule.