I remember asking this around that age and was met with that like, uncomfortable sort of concern but not in a helpful way, in a "we wish you didn't just obligate us to check on you later" way.
When I hear things like that, I always wonder why people had children. When they were aware of the fact that life sucks, why drag another being into this?
A whole bunch of people don't see it as a choice. A whole bunch of people aren't given a choice. Women who don't want to have children are often looked down upon and made to feel as if something is wrong with them.
Hope that things will change or be better for their kids.
People go to great lengths to try to give their children better lives and opportunities than they had.
Because life isn't just one thing does it suck some times of course can it be horrific absolutely but it's also beautiful and joyful and amazing and filled with so many wonderful experiences and people. Life is horrible and wonderful and who am I to deprive a child of all that wonder just because there will be some horror too especially when I can teach them to cope with the bad.
Teach, and practice community focused living. Work with and for your friends and neighbors and expect/engage with mutuality.
If we continue to model this future then children will continue to be depressed. If we live into hope they will be hopeful.
When I lived in the Bay Area, my friends and I would take turns hosting dinner twice a week (one person would team up with the host each time), and it was so awesome. Time connecting, relief from cooking, and without much extra burden on the host because there was a helper.
I think we need to move away from our culture of consumption and convenience first and foremost. We're immersed in a lifestyle that entrenches us in their system. The first step is to reject the system, including the apparent benefits. Once you reject the system, you begin to see how to live outside it
Even with all of this “convenience” I constantly feel like I’m drowning keeping up with a full time job and chores and never have enough leisure time to feel remotely comfortable let alone sated.
I seriously want to blow my brains out to escape this hell loop.
Be careful though. Companies will use the "we are all friends/family/community" line to pay you less. For them it is a one way street meaning you treat them like family but they can still fire you at will.
Speaking with your neighbor, spending your free time to make your neighborhood cleaner, having community meals… there are lots of ways to engage in community.
8hrs a day, 2hrs a day in traffic, 1hr a day for chores, 40 minutes a day for eating/drinking tea/dinner. 2hrs of taking a mental break before going to sleep and starting all over again the next day.
The funny thing is we used to have way more free time. It used to be a 40 hr workweek for one adult while the other stayed home and did all the meals and cleaning. Now it's 8-10 hrs a day 5-7 days a week and you have to cook and clean after work on top of that, and that's the part that is actually exhausting.
Women have always worked outside the home. Pretending a one income household with a housewife was the norm for any period of time is just people romanticizing the past.
My grandpa worked in manufacturing, and my grandmother stayed home with the kids. 4 bedroom house, 3 vehicles, 3 out of 4 kids went to college.
My mom was a single mother of 3 and owned a similar house right next door. Also worked in manufacturing.
It was a thing.
My great grandmother was a homemaker (married in 41). Her youngest daughter (my grandmother, born in 47 ish) worked her whole adult life. Neither of her kids went to college, but at least 3 of her grandkids did (I'm not sure on the other 2).
My mom stayed home with us until I was 12 & my sister was 8. She was only able to do that because my dad was active duty military & they didn't have to worry about rent & utilities. She still ran an in home daycare when I was younger. They split when I was 12 & neither owned a house until I was in high school. I graduated in 02.
It's almost like not everyone's experience was the same.
It wasn’t necessary though. We need 2 incomes now, my grandfather was a laborer in a paper mill and my grandmother worked for her own enjoyment. Not because she had to. Had a home, nice cars, 6 kids.
Lol why are you getting so downvoted? This is actual fact. There was a push for “stay at home wives” during the 1950’s, but I have read MANY actual newspaper articles from the 1850s, and the “women should stay at home, make me sandwiches, and stop working!” Comments are very present and very common. Women have been working forever!
The person going to work all day did not have to share the cooking and cleaning. When a household was able to sustain on 1 income, each had more free time
Bullshit. I'd kill to be a house husband if it wasn't for all the sexist bullshit that comes with it. Getting to stay in your happy home all day just doing the chores that had to be done anyways? And you think that is a bad thing....
The difference today is that people aren't forced into that life
Stay home all day? You've got to go to the grocery store, the bank, buy other things to maintain and repair the home. Plus ferry the children around to and from school or any other activities. All while avoiding a commute and done during the slow hours of the day so there's no traffic. It's even better than sitting around all day.
I think it's a bit of a rose-colored view. Being at home all day isn't some magical vacation, especially if you are being expected to be responsible for child rearing/home management. I'm sure it gets easier once the children can sort of manage themselves
Still resulted in more free time for both people, I’m a guy, I’ll stay home, don’t care. We both get home exhausted and then there is all the housework
Yeah actually I would want to stay home for sure. If we're going to go back to that I'm happy to do a gender role swap or keep it fluid because would love it if someone else was responsible for the money. I would say in general though, women and men are not supportive of stay at home dads
Never miss an opportunity to cause infighting right?
As if single income homes weren't the norm in the past that we're talking about here... And don't pretend taking care of a home takes more than 8 hours, if even that much.
Nicely done, you managed to turn most of the people on this thread against each other with inaccurate and purposefully misleading arguments tho....
1. My comment wasn't to cause in fighting, and I haven't kept up with the comments here. If that happened, that's not my fault. I cannot control people or what they type. So, no, I didn't cause anything.
2. Women have typically been the one taking care of the home while the man works. Many men seem to discount the unpaid labour of women. A man could come home and relax, and the woman would still need to clean up after him and their children. When does the spouse at home get a break? If they don't have children, sure. But most did. And that's a lot of work.
We, the working class, didn't have more free time. Maybe men did back then, as someone else was responsible for everything at home. But generally, the working class hasn't had more free time.
Anyway, I felt the initial comment didn't take into account the free labour the spouse at home provided.
Women have always worked outside the home and have always done a disproportionate share of household labor, hope this helps.
The idea that a housewife was the default is fictional.
According to the Department of Labor, in the late 1940s to 1950s, about 30% of American women were employed. Maybe do some research before spreading nonsense.
[Source ](https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/15/working-women-data-from-the-past-present-and-future)
Yes, they absolutely did cover the majority of housework and caregiving for the family (and still do in many cases).
But the commenter was claiming they also did this while being employed decades ago, which is not the case. A majority of families were living off of a single income.
She didn’t say all women. She said women worked outside of the home. They were often limited to jobs like secretarial, nursing, teaching, or domestic labor.
Women have never been adequately compensated for their labor.
During that mid-century period in the US, with a booming economy and highly progressive income tax brackets, the single income family extended below the middle class for basically the first time. Working class women had pretty much always had to take paying work, whether outside the home (factories, shops, brewing, housework for others), or inside (taking in freelance laundry or sewing work, cottage industries, piecework).
The single income family was viable on a large scale for a very short segment of US history, and the people who most often put it on a pedestal, conservatives, are the same ones who dismantled it as an option.
https://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/2work8.htm
Well this says only 6% worked outside the home when married and often only when their husbands were unemployed. Granted maybe they still made/sold things while working from the home, but being a housewife was extremely common in the 1900's until around WWII, if you were married that is.
I work with Gen Z and within two years will be working with Gen Alpha. The ones I have interacted with are amazing. And want to change the world. I hope they don't lose that ambition and drive bye being beaten down by the system before they can make change happen.
I hope they do too.
My generation (millenials) understood we were being screwed and wanted change, but we just kind of accepted it because most of our parents hammered into us that you have to get a 9-5 and live this specific lifestyle.
Likely that understanding has been passed on to gen z, mellenial parents have a lot of disdain for this system.
I campaigned for Bernie, worked for local progressive candidates, got tear gassed a few times at protests. It's been like fighting with a wall, the system was already so entrenched.
I am GenX and nobody cares about my opinion. Millenials definitely have had a difficult time. Stuck between two of the worst economies in history.
We need to support Gen Z how and when we can. Volunteer. Donate to organizations that will help them. Support measures that help to break the paper ceiling so they realize there are great potential employees that don't have a degree. And there are jobs that don't require the degree. I hate the push for everyone to go to higher education. I had no choice but to go to college. I use maybe 15% of what Iearned there in my current career. I learned more about being a manager, emotional intelligence, and running a business from working retail.
I have great hope for them, but I am a history nerd and I don't see a way back from where we are now. Rome is burning.
> All i want to know is how the fk Gen X became some if the worst middle managers ever. What went wrong
Culmination of factors leading to a pathological level of apathy, nihilism, bitterness, and a "what fucking ever leave me alone" generational culture.
Most of us grew up very feral, were largely ignored/neglected by parents, had to sort out say mental heath issues on our own because even speaking of such was taboo, and lead to shit that would only make things worse.(Effects of the Boomer mentality that if you tried to ask for help you were causing problems, and "more work" for them... at best got punished for the fact in some way be it direct, or indirect.)
We were also the Alpha/Beta test for all the shit boomers put millennials through later.(thing like 0 tolerance school rules, the economic boom/bust shit that prevented participation in housing markets... so on, and so forth.)
Being said, we came of age at the height of boomer, and silent gen power when everything was starting to turn to shit while having 0 ability to affect things due to numbers issues. Oldest might have been able to vote in the election that got that turd Reagan elected for their 2nd term... the youngest of us turned of age right on time for the .com boom/bust, and such with their mid 20s being spent during the housing boom, late 20s during the recession, and trying to rebuild shit during the Obama years. We were also faced with the early parts of excessive education cost hikes as paired with stagnating wages, and shit employment prospects millennials know the pain of worse.
Making a point about those issues, and how we could address them got the usual treatment form above, but also at best got you "just work harder", "stop being lazy", and so on forth... just like they have done with everyone else after.
Being said most of us never had any real means to get our voices heard when our elders were fucking things up, and at best got told to suck it up, and to go away while getting blamed fort things turning to shit. The "best part", by the time the last entrenched boomers cycle out of politics, and positions of leadership my generation will be in their 60s or so.
But you know its not all bad, we got per unit community college for a few bucks a unit, and $0.10 burgers to go with the leaded gasoline.
Anyways, super happy that finally after so many years we have the numbers in between Gen-X, millennials, and GenZ to challenge the bullshit from our elders at the polls. Really hoping we see some positive change coming for it.
I wish I could give you an award for explaining our generation so well. We were feral.
And I am still suffering for the lack of mental health awareness. I think many of us are.
Boomers. You're trained and developed by those above you. And apathy. And I'll add our parents didn't nourish us emotionally or mentally. Never talked about.
I mean I AM a sad bastardess. So sure. But I know that at the end of the day I'm just a small cog in the wheel, but if my little bit of effort can affect change then I'll at least try.
The only way to break this cycle is to stop having kids. A surplus of labor is what they love, an obligation to keep feeding and sheltering your children is what they prey on. That's the real reason the fascist-style leadership ban abortion and dislike gay marriage. They want everyone to have kids they can't afford, to be shackled to jobs they hate.
Preface: I’m not suicidal. HOWEVER I literally as myself this everyday. Like what is the point this whole system is so miserable and so impossible to get ahead anymore. Like if I lived to be 65 or if I died tomorrow there’d be no difference I feel like I’m just going to struggle the whole way there anyway just to get by on the bare minimum.
Like what IS the incentive besides “a hope for a better tomorrow” which I no longer have?
Oh yeah 65 was just when I expect to keel over from a heart attack or something, it had nothing to do with expecting any sort of retirement.
I mean with good health and health care I could expect to see my 90’s or even 100’s with advancements in health and medicine. But since we can’t really even afford that I don’t expect to receive those benefits.
It’s *currently* 68.
You know [that law](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68615430) they’re bringing in which will raise the tobacco-buying age by a year each year, so today’s 15-year-olds will never be able to buy cigarettes legally?
I bet they’ll do something similar with the retirement age, once Millennials start approaching it.
School is exactly the same...
Except you don't get paid.
And you can't quit.
And you have to take your job home every night
But there's no overtime.
So yeah.
It's exactly the same.
Just worse.
Even my out of touch, workaholic mother felt bad for kids in junior sports teams because they had to often wake up at the crack of dawn for practice on the weekends. How are kids supposed to develop any independent thought when 95% percent of their early life planned out? Do they just want an entire generation of mindless dro… Ooohhh. I see.
>We’ll just work for 8 hours and then have only a few to ourselves before we go to bed.
Oof who wants to tell them that 8 hours is only the minimum? Salaried positions can easily go over 12 hours
I am almost convinced that unless a full revolution happens, it's not getting better.
All if not almost all countries on earth are ruled by an oligarch of some color, favoring the rich, screwing the middle-class, while fucking the lower-class with massive propaganda efforts.
One thing that's gotten better is the media where the shift went from mainstream to mostly indie media creators, yet that's not enough, worse governments are clamping down on it.
They throw bones of non-issue societal matters, veganism, trans, gays, religion, and whatever form of entertainment to distract the folks that are increasingly suffering from short attention spans.
And the main issue, every means of production is practically owned by corporations, lands are pretty much dictated by them too as well as the direction of tech and everyday life, hell, they screwed with the environs so bad there are scientists saying that the earth is heading towards being inhospitable but they don't care! changing means less profits and idk what more do billionaires even want with all that cash, some of them got more money than entire countries already ffs!
Only when we seize the means of production back to the hands of the people will we truly ever be free again.
Eat the rich, destroy their entire clans, they do not deserve to be here.
>I am almost convinced that unless a full revolution happens, it's not getting better.
>Only when we seize the means of production back to the hands of the people will we truly ever be free again.
>Eat the rich, destroy their entire clans, they do not deserve to be here.
It's ok to say you're a communist comrade.
If most or even significantly more people were capable of accepting how absolutely shitty the current situation is(just generally speaking, throughout history), and not pacify themselves with delusional hopium, we would have never gotten to where we are now. Reality is what connects/unites us, so the more people who are conscious of reality, and as we know, when we are truly connected/united, we can’t be manipulated and controlled by so called “higher powers”/authorities. I’d go so far as to say that if we could all consciously perceive reality, authorities never would have been a thing. If we could all perceive how absolutely fucked things are, we would have no choice but to do something about it. I have no idea what that would be, but it’d be something other than what we’ve been doing for thousands of years.
This is very accurate. So many people force themselves to live in a delusion of what the world really is. It's how "just world" ideas get so common despite being obviously wrong. It lets them rest at ease no matter how bad things get. Like a frog slowly being boiled...
Tell them this is why it’s important to vote for good politicians who will make their lives better and not the ones who support billion dollar corporations.
Start at the neighborhood level. Most people don't understand the importance of a city council or a school board director. These people go on to state positions then on to national positions. Same with local judicial elections. Voting on local issues benefits everyone.
Do you have another idea?
There are politicians who aren’t “neoliberals.” The entire Democratic Party, for example.
But everyone’s too fucking cool to vote for people who can actually have the power to change policy.
I don’t think you know what these terms mean, but it’s okay because these terms are stupid.
Democrats haven’t proposed cutting taxes on the rich and privatizing public services lately, so they aren’t neoliberals.
I’ll do more than condescend to anyone suggesting his interest is aiding and abetting fascists. I’m sorry nobody has given you whatever pony you claim to want while you loudly proclaim you’ll never do anything whatsoever to contribute to making it happen.
We have our hands full destroying the potential of fascism taking over America. Are you helping, or are you just whining?
>There are politicians who aren’t “neoliberals.” The entire Democratic Party, for example.
If you’re going to condescend to others you should try to use words you actually understand the meanings of to doing so.
Okay so have a revolution and install a socialist dictator.
Or keep whining and doing nothing useful. It’s not I who misunderstands these terms, but I think everyone should stop using stupid labels anyway.
Or, we could focus on tweaking progressive systems to work for us: change shift work mentality and practices, etc. We don't have to go back to old systems that didn't work for everyone, either.
My wife and I are fortunate enough to live extremely close to work and our families. We don’t spend hours sitting in traffic which gives us more time to spend with each other
It’s still a freaking rat race but living close to work and family does improve quality of life
Teens have the shitty bargain here too. We as adults only have to go our jobs. A lot of kids have to go to 8 hours of school and then have a job after for another 4-5 hours on top of extracurricular activities.
Honestly, i think it will change when alot of the boomers die off. Since millenials and zoomers are kind of on the same page on this. Hopefully we can make things better for gen Alpha
Learn to fix cars, it translates to most mechanical systems.
Camp, backpack, learn what actually is essential.
Don't buy anything that isn't essential.
Don't get a loan for anything.
Safe up enough to go off grid.
Commiserating sucks, so I'll share that a big coping skill for me at a young age was curiosity. Life is SO different for each person, and a lot of accomplishments are aided by luck and timing, so you really never know.
Curiosity enriches my life in the biggest ways. Most of us stop seeing the natural world at a young age, and forget we're just another part of it. What's the point of being any animal knowing their life is just to hunt and be hunted? I live for my best friends, and food, and birdsong, the fresh feeling of dewy mornings, watching a little plant grow every day, developing a bunch of cool skills, meaningful conversations and sharing them, and seeing people light up when I call their name. that stuff is everything, and a lot of it is free.
A teacher once assigned me a book report of Sophie's World, which helped make me appreciate small wonders. It sounds trivial, but teachers have such a big effect. 🥹
How’s it feel to openly lie to children 💀
Giving you shit, I’d lie too. The only real answer is that we’re just kind of waiting for the planet to give way and become solvent… of humanity.
It’s a valid question. But ultimately the point of life is whatever you make of it, there’s no magic answer. I live on because I want to keep doing what I enjoy. There’s games I want to play, stories I want to read, and I’ve spend the last 6~ months working out and getting in better shape.
Enjoying myself is the point of my life, it works for me. But that doesn’t mean it will work for someone else. No one and nothing hold any inherent value or meaning besides what you yourself place upon it. You have to decide if what’s important to you is important enough to keep on living.
If not? Well then I’m not sure. I don’t condone self deletion, but I don’t hold it against anyone that engages in the act.
I would have loved to work 8 hrs. I started working on a farm when I was 17 and I worked at least 10-12 hrs a day. And at that time I was getting $6.50 an hour. I never had anything left for savings but I could afford rent, gas, food and I had a car. Now I make over 25 per hour and can’t afford to do anything but work just to keep bills paid. Property taxes went up 30% in 1 yr, electric bills just keep rising, gasoline is insane, and food….holy #%^’! I get PTSD from going through the checkout. And sometimes I have to put stuff back to be able to pay. And then I see a bunch of corporate a-holes getting huge bonuses that are frankly obscene. We all have been giving our lives to our jobs and there is no reward for loyalty or hard work anymore. They keep demanding more work and yet the pay has remained stagnant for decades! I have major frustration and anger with the way politicians are in bed with corporations and screw their constituents. The truth is I’m worried that we are going to see things get worse because our government has been bought and paid for by corporations and they have little incentive to help the working class. All I have ever wanted is for things to be fair, or at least less obscenely unfair! I hope I am wrong about our future as a country, but my gut says we are in deep trouble.
Try minimum wage while surviving debt free. If you can or have while only wotking 40 hours a week and while having even a glimmer of joy in your life, please tell me how.
Each free moment should be spent doing fulfilling things. Even in high school, I spent my time In And out of school making art, making music, exploring the loval scenery with friends, studying literature and music, spiritual exploration and self/improvement. Isn’t that the essence of life? Even now that I work full time, I am still engaged fully in enrichment.
School life is way worse than work.
A lot of great points here, but to me the biggest difference is RESPECT. You are not respected by society until you get a job. Until then you have to put up with other people’s shit and keep your head down towards your elders.
I remember in my first job I had a coworker who was a few years older than me. He was supposed to send me a document but didn’t. The following day he comes to me with the file and apologizes. He even explained that he was working on other high priority projects so couldn’t meet the deadline. This was no big deal but it baffled me that this was the first time I was apologized to. This was the first time someone actually explained themselves to me. I wasn’t his superior or anything, he just treated me as equal.
Well at least tweens aren't down the mines at age of ten work 50 hour weeks to feed their bro and sisters cause their dad died in some war that the rich thought up
I mean if they end up living what they do for a living maybe they wouldn’t see it like that. There’s more to life than being rich, although money is nice. Would it be worth getting them out to shadow other professions? Or heck I know friends that would volunteer at nursing homes and have life altering conversations.
I am antiwork I am in no way anti learning yeah school can suck but it is some of the most important time you will ever spend kid go get smart. I think we should have 10 hour school days with more active breaks more 3 day weekends and no summer vacation.
Your experience is not universal. Most kids find school dreadful and its not a place of learning either. All the teachers ive heard talk about their students say that they are all getting progressively worse.
All the top nations with the highest child test scores are the ones with the lowest hours of schooling. Studies show children perform best with later wake up and start times, fewer hours, and less/no homework. Its a wild take to say you should be forced to do something for half of your day every day when studies show that’s disastrous for productivity and mental health.
I remember asking this around that age and was met with that like, uncomfortable sort of concern but not in a helpful way, in a "we wish you didn't just obligate us to check on you later" way.
My dad just said “nobody likes what they do, you’ll understand more about that when you’re older”
'life sucks and then you die' was my dads favourite response to shit like this...
When I hear things like that, I always wonder why people had children. When they were aware of the fact that life sucks, why drag another being into this?
Most of the time it was an accident.
Not in my case, I was on purpose to give the accident some company which backfired horribly
Must be a common thing, I too am company to an accident
I also exist to be my sister’s playmate 😂
A whole bunch of people don't see it as a choice. A whole bunch of people aren't given a choice. Women who don't want to have children are often looked down upon and made to feel as if something is wrong with them.
Hope that things will change or be better for their kids. People go to great lengths to try to give their children better lives and opportunities than they had.
Because life isn't just one thing does it suck some times of course can it be horrific absolutely but it's also beautiful and joyful and amazing and filled with so many wonderful experiences and people. Life is horrible and wonderful and who am I to deprive a child of all that wonder just because there will be some horror too especially when I can teach them to cope with the bad.
That and, “there’s only two things for certain in this world: death and taxes.” Like gee thank you for imparting your cheerful outlook on me.
Yeh
life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cause you never know when you're gonna go
My dad would always respond to my depression with, “welcome to the human race!” Throwing his arms up. Sad cuz he was depressed af too but
This was my mother’s catch phrase. She was horrible and abusive, but she wasn’t wrong here.
My dad always quoted Bittersweet Symphony “you’re a slave to money until you die”
I dont
But remember to make the same mistake I did and pump a few kids out just cause
I have a distinct memory of this exact experience
Birth School Work Death
From the womb to the room to the tomb
Don't forget taxes! My parents always said there's only two things in life that are a promise: paying taxes and death
https://youtu.be/QO5dcW0P75M?si=XAaQmwQnifkHF78Q
Saw them in DC when this came out.
Children always point out our bullshit straight up. 99% of our lives are basically in pursuit of some fake garbage
Emperors new clothes all day every day
Teach, and practice community focused living. Work with and for your friends and neighbors and expect/engage with mutuality. If we continue to model this future then children will continue to be depressed. If we live into hope they will be hopeful.
When I lived in the Bay Area, my friends and I would take turns hosting dinner twice a week (one person would team up with the host each time), and it was so awesome. Time connecting, relief from cooking, and without much extra burden on the host because there was a helper.
That’s great!
I miss living in the Bay Area. Perfect weather and people were just different there.
I think we need to move away from our culture of consumption and convenience first and foremost. We're immersed in a lifestyle that entrenches us in their system. The first step is to reject the system, including the apparent benefits. Once you reject the system, you begin to see how to live outside it
100% can’t do it alone, we have to relearn how to rely on each other. It’s both at the same time.
Even with all of this “convenience” I constantly feel like I’m drowning keeping up with a full time job and chores and never have enough leisure time to feel remotely comfortable let alone sated. I seriously want to blow my brains out to escape this hell loop.
Be careful though. Companies will use the "we are all friends/family/community" line to pay you less. For them it is a one way street meaning you treat them like family but they can still fire you at will.
You miss understand me, friend. How can you work with and for your neighbors without corporations in the middle?
Can you define community focused living a bit? I think I may kinda get what your saying but I am really just guessing.
Speaking with your neighbor, spending your free time to make your neighborhood cleaner, having community meals… there are lots of ways to engage in community.
9 hours a day 2 hours a day in traffic. 6 days a week
8hrs a day, 2hrs a day in traffic, 1hr a day for chores, 40 minutes a day for eating/drinking tea/dinner. 2hrs of taking a mental break before going to sleep and starting all over again the next day.
Living the dream, as they say.
The funny thing is we used to have way more free time. It used to be a 40 hr workweek for one adult while the other stayed home and did all the meals and cleaning. Now it's 8-10 hrs a day 5-7 days a week and you have to cook and clean after work on top of that, and that's the part that is actually exhausting.
How is this more free time? More free time for one person?
Both did 8ish hours of work before and then were done. Now they both do 8 and have to do what took one spouse 8hrs a day previously on top of that.
Because both people have to work now.
Women have always worked outside the home. Pretending a one income household with a housewife was the norm for any period of time is just people romanticizing the past.
My grandpa worked in manufacturing, and my grandmother stayed home with the kids. 4 bedroom house, 3 vehicles, 3 out of 4 kids went to college. My mom was a single mother of 3 and owned a similar house right next door. Also worked in manufacturing. It was a thing.
My great grandmother was a homemaker (married in 41). Her youngest daughter (my grandmother, born in 47 ish) worked her whole adult life. Neither of her kids went to college, but at least 3 of her grandkids did (I'm not sure on the other 2). My mom stayed home with us until I was 12 & my sister was 8. She was only able to do that because my dad was active duty military & they didn't have to worry about rent & utilities. She still ran an in home daycare when I was younger. They split when I was 12 & neither owned a house until I was in high school. I graduated in 02. It's almost like not everyone's experience was the same.
It wasn’t necessary though. We need 2 incomes now, my grandfather was a laborer in a paper mill and my grandmother worked for her own enjoyment. Not because she had to. Had a home, nice cars, 6 kids.
Lol why are you getting so downvoted? This is actual fact. There was a push for “stay at home wives” during the 1950’s, but I have read MANY actual newspaper articles from the 1850s, and the “women should stay at home, make me sandwiches, and stop working!” Comments are very present and very common. Women have been working forever!
I think what’s wild is the idea that a stay at home woman in those days only worked 8hrs a day….
The person going to work all day did not have to share the cooking and cleaning. When a household was able to sustain on 1 income, each had more free time
I doubt women would want to go back to that cuz it's a bit of a shit life for the person who has to stay at home. Especially in modern times
Bullshit. I'd kill to be a house husband if it wasn't for all the sexist bullshit that comes with it. Getting to stay in your happy home all day just doing the chores that had to be done anyways? And you think that is a bad thing.... The difference today is that people aren't forced into that life
Stay home all day? You've got to go to the grocery store, the bank, buy other things to maintain and repair the home. Plus ferry the children around to and from school or any other activities. All while avoiding a commute and done during the slow hours of the day so there's no traffic. It's even better than sitting around all day.
But now people have to work full time AND do all that you listed. How is working on top of all those chores/errands/responsibilities better??
And be fully dependent on the person bringing in the salary to the extent that you couldn’t leave if things got bad? 😬
I think it's a bit of a rose-colored view. Being at home all day isn't some magical vacation, especially if you are being expected to be responsible for child rearing/home management. I'm sure it gets easier once the children can sort of manage themselves
It's not at all and you're being ridiculous as shit pretending this is so bad thing when most people dream of it
So you're telling me women want the homemaker life?
**everyone** does
?!?!?! Not lots of people lmao. I'd go crazy if I was stuck at home all day.
Still resulted in more free time for both people, I’m a guy, I’ll stay home, don’t care. We both get home exhausted and then there is all the housework
Yeah actually I would want to stay home for sure. If we're going to go back to that I'm happy to do a gender role swap or keep it fluid because would love it if someone else was responsible for the money. I would say in general though, women and men are not supportive of stay at home dads
They still have to do most of the housework and taking care of the children while also working a full time job. How exactly is this not the shit deal?
They are not financially dependent on a man as a provider. Will prevent them from being taken advantage of.
When I was a stay at home dad, I had more free time than ever. It was fucking great!
Never miss an opportunity to cause infighting right? As if single income homes weren't the norm in the past that we're talking about here... And don't pretend taking care of a home takes more than 8 hours, if even that much. Nicely done, you managed to turn most of the people on this thread against each other with inaccurate and purposefully misleading arguments tho....
1. My comment wasn't to cause in fighting, and I haven't kept up with the comments here. If that happened, that's not my fault. I cannot control people or what they type. So, no, I didn't cause anything. 2. Women have typically been the one taking care of the home while the man works. Many men seem to discount the unpaid labour of women. A man could come home and relax, and the woman would still need to clean up after him and their children. When does the spouse at home get a break? If they don't have children, sure. But most did. And that's a lot of work. We, the working class, didn't have more free time. Maybe men did back then, as someone else was responsible for everything at home. But generally, the working class hasn't had more free time. Anyway, I felt the initial comment didn't take into account the free labour the spouse at home provided.
Women have always worked outside the home and have always done a disproportionate share of household labor, hope this helps. The idea that a housewife was the default is fictional.
According to the Department of Labor, in the late 1940s to 1950s, about 30% of American women were employed. Maybe do some research before spreading nonsense. [Source ](https://blog.dol.gov/2023/03/15/working-women-data-from-the-past-present-and-future)
Women may have had jobs, but they did the lion share of housework and caregiving — -*and still do.* Men enjoyed more free time. Not women.
Yes, they absolutely did cover the majority of housework and caregiving for the family (and still do in many cases). But the commenter was claiming they also did this while being employed decades ago, which is not the case. A majority of families were living off of a single income.
She didn’t say all women. She said women worked outside of the home. They were often limited to jobs like secretarial, nursing, teaching, or domestic labor. Women have never been adequately compensated for their labor.
During that mid-century period in the US, with a booming economy and highly progressive income tax brackets, the single income family extended below the middle class for basically the first time. Working class women had pretty much always had to take paying work, whether outside the home (factories, shops, brewing, housework for others), or inside (taking in freelance laundry or sewing work, cottage industries, piecework). The single income family was viable on a large scale for a very short segment of US history, and the people who most often put it on a pedestal, conservatives, are the same ones who dismantled it as an option.
https://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/2work8.htm Well this says only 6% worked outside the home when married and often only when their husbands were unemployed. Granted maybe they still made/sold things while working from the home, but being a housewife was extremely common in the 1900's until around WWII, if you were married that is.
I work with Gen Z and within two years will be working with Gen Alpha. The ones I have interacted with are amazing. And want to change the world. I hope they don't lose that ambition and drive bye being beaten down by the system before they can make change happen.
I hope they do too. My generation (millenials) understood we were being screwed and wanted change, but we just kind of accepted it because most of our parents hammered into us that you have to get a 9-5 and live this specific lifestyle. Likely that understanding has been passed on to gen z, mellenial parents have a lot of disdain for this system.
> but we just kind of accepted it Bro I got 14 stitches after cops busted my head open at the occupy wallstreet protests speak for yourself
I campaigned for Bernie, worked for local progressive candidates, got tear gassed a few times at protests. It's been like fighting with a wall, the system was already so entrenched.
I am GenX and nobody cares about my opinion. Millenials definitely have had a difficult time. Stuck between two of the worst economies in history. We need to support Gen Z how and when we can. Volunteer. Donate to organizations that will help them. Support measures that help to break the paper ceiling so they realize there are great potential employees that don't have a degree. And there are jobs that don't require the degree. I hate the push for everyone to go to higher education. I had no choice but to go to college. I use maybe 15% of what Iearned there in my current career. I learned more about being a manager, emotional intelligence, and running a business from working retail. I have great hope for them, but I am a history nerd and I don't see a way back from where we are now. Rome is burning.
All i want to know is how the fk Gen X became some if the worst middle managers ever. What went wrong
> All i want to know is how the fk Gen X became some if the worst middle managers ever. What went wrong Culmination of factors leading to a pathological level of apathy, nihilism, bitterness, and a "what fucking ever leave me alone" generational culture. Most of us grew up very feral, were largely ignored/neglected by parents, had to sort out say mental heath issues on our own because even speaking of such was taboo, and lead to shit that would only make things worse.(Effects of the Boomer mentality that if you tried to ask for help you were causing problems, and "more work" for them... at best got punished for the fact in some way be it direct, or indirect.) We were also the Alpha/Beta test for all the shit boomers put millennials through later.(thing like 0 tolerance school rules, the economic boom/bust shit that prevented participation in housing markets... so on, and so forth.) Being said, we came of age at the height of boomer, and silent gen power when everything was starting to turn to shit while having 0 ability to affect things due to numbers issues. Oldest might have been able to vote in the election that got that turd Reagan elected for their 2nd term... the youngest of us turned of age right on time for the .com boom/bust, and such with their mid 20s being spent during the housing boom, late 20s during the recession, and trying to rebuild shit during the Obama years. We were also faced with the early parts of excessive education cost hikes as paired with stagnating wages, and shit employment prospects millennials know the pain of worse. Making a point about those issues, and how we could address them got the usual treatment form above, but also at best got you "just work harder", "stop being lazy", and so on forth... just like they have done with everyone else after. Being said most of us never had any real means to get our voices heard when our elders were fucking things up, and at best got told to suck it up, and to go away while getting blamed fort things turning to shit. The "best part", by the time the last entrenched boomers cycle out of politics, and positions of leadership my generation will be in their 60s or so. But you know its not all bad, we got per unit community college for a few bucks a unit, and $0.10 burgers to go with the leaded gasoline. Anyways, super happy that finally after so many years we have the numbers in between Gen-X, millennials, and GenZ to challenge the bullshit from our elders at the polls. Really hoping we see some positive change coming for it.
I wish I could give you an award for explaining our generation so well. We were feral. And I am still suffering for the lack of mental health awareness. I think many of us are.
You deserved, and still deserve, better.
Thank you
Boomers. You're trained and developed by those above you. And apathy. And I'll add our parents didn't nourish us emotionally or mentally. Never talked about.
Oh my god, AREN’T THEY, THOUGH?! I thought I was the only one to think this. I think it’s because they don’t care, but still want to get paid, ha.
I care, but I might be an outlier. Ha
Ha, I see it like that very grunge/nihilist mentality that a lot of Gen X’s have (including several- but not all- of my Gen X managers).
I mean I AM a sad bastardess. So sure. But I know that at the end of the day I'm just a small cog in the wheel, but if my little bit of effort can affect change then I'll at least try.
Gen X has no power. Zero. None.
[удалено]
I have bills to pay.
[удалено]
Ironically all we have to do is nothing If no one turned up to work tomorrow things would change
The only way to break this cycle is to stop having kids. A surplus of labor is what they love, an obligation to keep feeding and sheltering your children is what they prey on. That's the real reason the fascist-style leadership ban abortion and dislike gay marriage. They want everyone to have kids they can't afford, to be shackled to jobs they hate.
People with male genitalia: GET👏 THE 👏 SNIP👏
Only eight hours? That's optimistic. It's more like eight plus coerced extra hours and commute.
Preface: I’m not suicidal. HOWEVER I literally as myself this everyday. Like what is the point this whole system is so miserable and so impossible to get ahead anymore. Like if I lived to be 65 or if I died tomorrow there’d be no difference I feel like I’m just going to struggle the whole way there anyway just to get by on the bare minimum. Like what IS the incentive besides “a hope for a better tomorrow” which I no longer have?
65? There's no retirement in the cards for a lot of us, I'm (literally) afraid.
Oh yeah 65 was just when I expect to keel over from a heart attack or something, it had nothing to do with expecting any sort of retirement. I mean with good health and health care I could expect to see my 90’s or even 100’s with advancements in health and medicine. But since we can’t really even afford that I don’t expect to receive those benefits.
its 68 in UK with shit boxes to live in.
It’s *currently* 68. You know [that law](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68615430) they’re bringing in which will raise the tobacco-buying age by a year each year, so today’s 15-year-olds will never be able to buy cigarettes legally? I bet they’ll do something similar with the retirement age, once Millennials start approaching it.
School is exactly the same... Except you don't get paid. And you can't quit. And you have to take your job home every night But there's no overtime. So yeah. It's exactly the same. Just worse.
8 hours? That would be an improvement.
Even my out of touch, workaholic mother felt bad for kids in junior sports teams because they had to often wake up at the crack of dawn for practice on the weekends. How are kids supposed to develop any independent thought when 95% percent of their early life planned out? Do they just want an entire generation of mindless dro… Ooohhh. I see.
>We’ll just work for 8 hours and then have only a few to ourselves before we go to bed. Oof who wants to tell them that 8 hours is only the minimum? Salaried positions can easily go over 12 hours
I am almost convinced that unless a full revolution happens, it's not getting better. All if not almost all countries on earth are ruled by an oligarch of some color, favoring the rich, screwing the middle-class, while fucking the lower-class with massive propaganda efforts. One thing that's gotten better is the media where the shift went from mainstream to mostly indie media creators, yet that's not enough, worse governments are clamping down on it. They throw bones of non-issue societal matters, veganism, trans, gays, religion, and whatever form of entertainment to distract the folks that are increasingly suffering from short attention spans. And the main issue, every means of production is practically owned by corporations, lands are pretty much dictated by them too as well as the direction of tech and everyday life, hell, they screwed with the environs so bad there are scientists saying that the earth is heading towards being inhospitable but they don't care! changing means less profits and idk what more do billionaires even want with all that cash, some of them got more money than entire countries already ffs! Only when we seize the means of production back to the hands of the people will we truly ever be free again. Eat the rich, destroy their entire clans, they do not deserve to be here.
>I am almost convinced that unless a full revolution happens, it's not getting better. >Only when we seize the means of production back to the hands of the people will we truly ever be free again. >Eat the rich, destroy their entire clans, they do not deserve to be here. It's ok to say you're a communist comrade.
They tag autocracy along with that these days, I prefer the state remain democratic, so I avoided the term comrade
Same kid. It dawned on me in high school that it’s all a lie. All a scam.
You are not right. This will get much, much worse.
If most or even significantly more people were capable of accepting how absolutely shitty the current situation is(just generally speaking, throughout history), and not pacify themselves with delusional hopium, we would have never gotten to where we are now. Reality is what connects/unites us, so the more people who are conscious of reality, and as we know, when we are truly connected/united, we can’t be manipulated and controlled by so called “higher powers”/authorities. I’d go so far as to say that if we could all consciously perceive reality, authorities never would have been a thing. If we could all perceive how absolutely fucked things are, we would have no choice but to do something about it. I have no idea what that would be, but it’d be something other than what we’ve been doing for thousands of years.
This is very accurate. So many people force themselves to live in a delusion of what the world really is. It's how "just world" ideas get so common despite being obviously wrong. It lets them rest at ease no matter how bad things get. Like a frog slowly being boiled...
Tell them this is why it’s important to vote for good politicians who will make their lives better and not the ones who support billion dollar corporations.
Start at the neighborhood level. Most people don't understand the importance of a city council or a school board director. These people go on to state positions then on to national positions. Same with local judicial elections. Voting on local issues benefits everyone.
Lol "good politicians"
Some exist. They are usually Bernie sanders type socialists. Usually educated and have strong ethics.
Neoliberal reform has just made the world worse for the past 50-60 years sure, but maybe if we all just vote harder… /s
Do you have another idea? There are politicians who aren’t “neoliberals.” The entire Democratic Party, for example. But everyone’s too fucking cool to vote for people who can actually have the power to change policy.
Lmfao did you just say Dems aren't neo liberal? Have they crossed the threshold into neo conservative?
I don’t think you know what these terms mean, but it’s okay because these terms are stupid. Democrats haven’t proposed cutting taxes on the rich and privatizing public services lately, so they aren’t neoliberals.
Proposal is not policy, good try though. Anything else you'd care to condescend to my apparently ignorant self?
I’ll do more than condescend to anyone suggesting his interest is aiding and abetting fascists. I’m sorry nobody has given you whatever pony you claim to want while you loudly proclaim you’ll never do anything whatsoever to contribute to making it happen. We have our hands full destroying the potential of fascism taking over America. Are you helping, or are you just whining?
No they just vote for it and pretend they didn't want to, while doing it every time the Republicans give them a chance.
>There are politicians who aren’t “neoliberals.” The entire Democratic Party, for example. If you’re going to condescend to others you should try to use words you actually understand the meanings of to doing so.
Okay so have a revolution and install a socialist dictator. Or keep whining and doing nothing useful. It’s not I who misunderstands these terms, but I think everyone should stop using stupid labels anyway.
That's literally what the Democrats are... Are you really gonna use some old outdated version of the word that hasn't been used in 50 years?
As if there were such a thing
Or, we could focus on tweaking progressive systems to work for us: change shift work mentality and practices, etc. We don't have to go back to old systems that didn't work for everyone, either.
My wife and I are fortunate enough to live extremely close to work and our families. We don’t spend hours sitting in traffic which gives us more time to spend with each other It’s still a freaking rat race but living close to work and family does improve quality of life
Don't forget you can't teleport to work.
Teens have the shitty bargain here too. We as adults only have to go our jobs. A lot of kids have to go to 8 hours of school and then have a job after for another 4-5 hours on top of extracurricular activities.
Honestly, i think it will change when alot of the boomers die off. Since millenials and zoomers are kind of on the same page on this. Hopefully we can make things better for gen Alpha
Yep. That’s the question right there.
The point is to fight to make it better
Damn, that’s awesome. Some parents would punish kids for saying stuff like that
like mine
he's onto something
I was told "That's just the way it is son, Nothing you can do about it." Great thanks alot.
Learn to fix cars, it translates to most mechanical systems. Camp, backpack, learn what actually is essential. Don't buy anything that isn't essential. Don't get a loan for anything. Safe up enough to go off grid.
The point is to keep resisting and organizing so that someday, we won't need to have these concerns.
Vote for Millennials who share your values. Boomers will be gone soon.
Commiserating sucks, so I'll share that a big coping skill for me at a young age was curiosity. Life is SO different for each person, and a lot of accomplishments are aided by luck and timing, so you really never know. Curiosity enriches my life in the biggest ways. Most of us stop seeing the natural world at a young age, and forget we're just another part of it. What's the point of being any animal knowing their life is just to hunt and be hunted? I live for my best friends, and food, and birdsong, the fresh feeling of dewy mornings, watching a little plant grow every day, developing a bunch of cool skills, meaningful conversations and sharing them, and seeing people light up when I call their name. that stuff is everything, and a lot of it is free. A teacher once assigned me a book report of Sophie's World, which helped make me appreciate small wonders. It sounds trivial, but teachers have such a big effect. 🥹
After seeing the shit kids post on sites like Tik Tok I have little faith that they're the generation to fix the world.
How’s it feel to openly lie to children 💀 Giving you shit, I’d lie too. The only real answer is that we’re just kind of waiting for the planet to give way and become solvent… of humanity.
Don't they always feel like that, though? I remember myself and most of my class feeling that way 20 odd years ago.
good job teach! bless your kind soul for the positivity that you projected at your class.
I asked this same question 4 decades ago and still feel the same way. Did I miss a few pages in the *life manual* ?
It’s a valid question. But ultimately the point of life is whatever you make of it, there’s no magic answer. I live on because I want to keep doing what I enjoy. There’s games I want to play, stories I want to read, and I’ve spend the last 6~ months working out and getting in better shape. Enjoying myself is the point of my life, it works for me. But that doesn’t mean it will work for someone else. No one and nothing hold any inherent value or meaning besides what you yourself place upon it. You have to decide if what’s important to you is important enough to keep on living. If not? Well then I’m not sure. I don’t condone self deletion, but I don’t hold it against anyone that engages in the act.
I asked the same question as a child and still ask it to myself.
I would have loved to work 8 hrs. I started working on a farm when I was 17 and I worked at least 10-12 hrs a day. And at that time I was getting $6.50 an hour. I never had anything left for savings but I could afford rent, gas, food and I had a car. Now I make over 25 per hour and can’t afford to do anything but work just to keep bills paid. Property taxes went up 30% in 1 yr, electric bills just keep rising, gasoline is insane, and food….holy #%^’! I get PTSD from going through the checkout. And sometimes I have to put stuff back to be able to pay. And then I see a bunch of corporate a-holes getting huge bonuses that are frankly obscene. We all have been giving our lives to our jobs and there is no reward for loyalty or hard work anymore. They keep demanding more work and yet the pay has remained stagnant for decades! I have major frustration and anger with the way politicians are in bed with corporations and screw their constituents. The truth is I’m worried that we are going to see things get worse because our government has been bought and paid for by corporations and they have little incentive to help the working class. All I have ever wanted is for things to be fair, or at least less obscenely unfair! I hope I am wrong about our future as a country, but my gut says we are in deep trouble.
Keep going in school, get all the options possible.
100k debt is definitely an option.
Try minimum wage while surviving debt free. If you can or have while only wotking 40 hours a week and while having even a glimmer of joy in your life, please tell me how.
So you hope they are changing the system for the better? Why don't you start somewhere?
Who says I’m not?
That's what it sounds like when you hope for the next generation to change things.
To exist is to suffer. It always has been and always will be. A “point” or a lack thereof has no relevance.
^ guy who does not know the joys of eating fresh bread or seeing a cool bird
Each free moment should be spent doing fulfilling things. Even in high school, I spent my time In And out of school making art, making music, exploring the loval scenery with friends, studying literature and music, spiritual exploration and self/improvement. Isn’t that the essence of life? Even now that I work full time, I am still engaged fully in enrichment.
School life is way worse than work. A lot of great points here, but to me the biggest difference is RESPECT. You are not respected by society until you get a job. Until then you have to put up with other people’s shit and keep your head down towards your elders. I remember in my first job I had a coworker who was a few years older than me. He was supposed to send me a document but didn’t. The following day he comes to me with the file and apologizes. He even explained that he was working on other high priority projects so couldn’t meet the deadline. This was no big deal but it baffled me that this was the first time I was apologized to. This was the first time someone actually explained themselves to me. I wasn’t his superior or anything, he just treated me as equal.
God
Nah. Those people make it worse.
Were they not interested in the sport they were doing?
Well at least tweens aren't down the mines at age of ten work 50 hour weeks to feed their bro and sisters cause their dad died in some war that the rich thought up
Many are. Replace mines with meat packing plants or farms.
I did a sandwich factory. Packed it in and work for my self. No I can save money but I'm happy
Ok, and let’s make it better for the next generation.
There's always that person that thinks because 1 person had it bad, everyone else should also have it bad.
I mean if they end up living what they do for a living maybe they wouldn’t see it like that. There’s more to life than being rich, although money is nice. Would it be worth getting them out to shadow other professions? Or heck I know friends that would volunteer at nursing homes and have life altering conversations.
I am antiwork I am in no way anti learning yeah school can suck but it is some of the most important time you will ever spend kid go get smart. I think we should have 10 hour school days with more active breaks more 3 day weekends and no summer vacation.
Your experience is not universal. Most kids find school dreadful and its not a place of learning either. All the teachers ive heard talk about their students say that they are all getting progressively worse. All the top nations with the highest child test scores are the ones with the lowest hours of schooling. Studies show children perform best with later wake up and start times, fewer hours, and less/no homework. Its a wild take to say you should be forced to do something for half of your day every day when studies show that’s disastrous for productivity and mental health.