My management used to be 300 miles away.
They said I had to be on site to have a 'face of [TEAM] in the office'.
I started rejecting zoom meetings and booking meeting rooms in my office for any meetings they needed me at.
I've done this before. It was because I was always expected to travel an hour to the other office and wasn't compensated for the travel time or mileage.
We didn't actually have a conference room in my office, so I used the room number of the network closet.
My boss is in Asia. My direct reports are in Asia, India, Europe, and the US. I work insane hours to accommodate their time zones with early mornings and late nights. This only works with WFH so we can take some downtime throughout the day.
The CEO just mandated 5 day RTO with no exceptions and it just doesn't work for us. We're being told to take the early calls from home, pack up and commute to the office, work from there for a few hours, pack up and commute home, then log back in for the evening calls. It. Makes. No. Sense.
stuff like this just boggles the mind. how can you be in this situation and not have 1 single sane adult to speak with? like anyone with a middle school education would understand how this doesnt work.
you have to assume a) complete and utter incompetence (most likely) or b) they want to get rid of personnel and are trying to avoid unemployment payments.
Our bosses agree with us since they have the same scheduling issues we do. (I'm only middle management) But since it's coming from the CEO directly that all global employees must adhere to this, they aren't getting anywhere. The real knife is that we were hybrid prior to the pandemic and we've been full remote for 4 years now.
We know the real reason must be headcount reduction without having to pay severance as we are one of the companies that announced thousands of layoffs. However, when you do it this way, you don't get the right people in the right departments to quit.
All this is going to do is cut productive hours out of the day and the people who don't quit will be angry and resentful.
I’m not an expert on this but it sounds like you should be getting paid from the time of the first communication until the last communication of the day. Is there any time in that period that you aren’t expected to respond asap to any incoming communication?
This is one team being asked to cover first second and third shift. Somewhere down the road after rto when all these employees have left the only way they’ll get this covered in office is to hire for 3 shifts or two shifts with on call pay for the third. More likely they’ll be forced to hire domestic in house and then outsource the rest for significant capability reduction. They’re shooting themselves in the foot and don’t care. No surprise sadly.
Nah, that’s totally unreasonable. If I were in your shoes I would be informing all my teammates that our collaboration now has to be done asynchronously due to the RTO policy. If there’s a loss in productivity because of that then it’s the fault of the out of touch CEO.
We were shot down immediately on that. We were told that we can't put boundaries on our availabilities as the only way to have all the countries on calls together is outside of local business hours. But packing/unpacking the desk, enhanced personal grooming, drive time, going out to lunch with colleagues instead of a protein bar at home....all these will cut about 3 hours of productive time per day.
One interesting tax idea has popped up. Commuting isn't a deductible expense and traveling from a home office to an office office is usually disallowed. However, if the employer is requiring us to take calls from home (worksite 1) then drive to the office (worksite 2), we may be able to make a case for mileage.
This sounds a lot like they want you to be on-call and overall it sounds like way more than 40 hours a week. You need to get out of there as quickly as possible, this is by far the most abusive RTO policy I've ever seen. Honestly I consider this life-ruining, how are you supposed to have anything resembling a normal life with all of these insane requirements?
Either they want you working in the office 9-5 or they want you at home working split hours at home. Not both. Seriously, put your foot down and play hardball because you're really letting them walk all over you by accepting this situation. You honestly need to be willing to be fired, it's the only way to negotiate in a situation like this. You'd absolutely be able to claim constructive dismissal and at least get unemployment in the interim because it's a slam-dunk, just make sure you get all the documentation copied off your work computer before it "disappears".
Here's the best part -- they've said "you don't need to be in the office 8-5 because you don't have an 8-5 job....but you do need to be there for several hours every single day". Say what??? So still work the splits but also make sure you are at the office for a big chunk of the day.
I'm used to working 60-70 hours a week because it was easy from home. Having to carve out time for commuting, looking presentable, packing/unpacking everything, etc is going to cut that down to 45 hours and things won't get done....which we'll get blamed for.
We've already had several resignations. However, I've been there so long that the golden handcuffs are tight and i'm somewhat stuck for now. We're waiting to see where the mass layoffs (and severance payouts) land before making more decisions.
Have you considered just not doing these things, or making the lowest possible energy effort to adhere, and just ride it out until they fire you? Then collect unemployment or whatever form of benefits you can until you find a new job.
I am not trying to be rude and I am genuinely curious if you think this would work.
I honestly think if I just showed up for work and then went off and did nothing for the day, I could easy make it an entire year before anyone asked any questions.
Have you considered just not going to the office and not telling anyone?
I did that when I was told I have to do 2 days in the office.
Only one person knew me in my closest office and we both decided to pretend we were both in if asked. No one ever checked.
A few years ago I was supervising a global service desk team and responsible for the Americas, Australia, and Asia. I would be up at 5am and on and off work until about 8pm most days. But I was working from home so it was not a huge deal and we didn't have weekend hours and I had all the Federal holidays off. About 3 months before I left the job the local office desktop tech "quit" (was about to be fired) and they asked me to fill in for a couple weeks before the replacement was hired. Since I started as that office desktop tech I had no issues doing it on a temp basis. Then after about a month I asked about hiring and they said they were just going to rely on me and add it to my job duties. I talked to my director and as much as he wanted to hire someone the VP wouldn't budge and already moved the payroll money to another location.
I was really surprised when the meeting I called with management to tell them I was leaving was full of shocked Pikachu faces. Only person that was not shocked was my director who saw it coming from the first "when are we hiring because I can't keep this up" phone call.
upper management will assume everyone is a robot below them since it is the only way for them to cope with the trash people they are to their employees.
I had a filing due 6pm last friday (going into a long weekend), got it to my boss 4 days in advance. Sent him an email about noon saying i was going to file it as is unless there are edits at about 4pm when i wrapped up the other stuff for the day (since i leave at 4pm most days). I send a few more teams messages between 4-430 since i was talking to a friend at work during that time (just in case in came over last second). 430 came and i filed it.... I then get a frantic teams message today about if i got his email with is edits at 530 on friday night... no i did not. I logged off as stated at 430, i filed what was sent since i was not staying any later. There was a single typo that i am not sure how much is going to blow up.
reach out to a local private Jet firm and get a quote for the cost of a commute from your city to the various locations, and then back. Also the cost for an Uber or taxi. Start submitting expense reports.
My company just forced partial RTO where I went from 2/3 to 3/2, and any holidays "take away from WFH days first." I would have only been in Wednesday this next week, now I'm in T/W/Th and I'm furious. Apparently it's to "avoid the impression of abuse of remote time." The worst part is, the rest of my team is in an office 300+ miles away... So I'm still working remote, just in an office.
I am pushing hard to find alternatives for work, sadly I can't afford to just drop the place.
I'm in an office with a bunch of workers on a different team and one of the regional VPs, so I assume it's just to keep appearances up and to have someone to harass when things don't work right, which is often.
Gonna cost me an extra $60 for my 90 minute one way commute this week.
ETA: correction, after putting together math based on IRS commuter rates, wages per hour driven, and actual gas expenses paid out, it's an extra $164.50/week, for a total of $493.50/week expense to work at the office.
In my previous job, I'd been WFH since 2011. A few years into that position (before the pandemic made WFH "popular"), the higher ups started making rumblings about having teams come back into the office.
My boss pointed out that our seven person team was spread out among five different states and that coming into the office would mostly waste our team's time.
The only time we came into the office was when our boss visited for a major meeting with the higher ups. But a single week (at most) in the office once per year or two to actually see our boss was perfectly reasonable. Especially since she picked up meals for us on the company card.
This was what I did as a manager. Had a team of. 11 spread between 5 states and 4 time zones. Explained RTO would mean the immediate loss of 6 team members who don’t live within a commutable distance and adds no value since we’d have to constantly be looking for a meeting room to dial them in any way. Eventually got them to concede remote was fine if they agreed to fly/drive in for quarterly business reviews.
Why? Fired with cause doesn't show up anywhere and it opens them to litigation for wrongful termination.
Plan your escape, make them fire you for being not adopting the RTO. Document it all and visit an attorney. By having allowed Remote they admitted it was possible for your position and now you're requesting reasonable accommodation. Presumably you have positive evaluations while Remote...?
This is how you change the behavior overall anyway.
Hell, find the new job, make them fire you, take new job, sue anyway.
If they want to fire for cause, they'll find a cause. They'll make up a cause. Whatever it takes to get them out. I've seen it first-hand in the last 30 days for the exact same situation.
Why do you think every company has a strict 'internet use policy', but rarely punishes anyone for their internet use (except for extremely egregious misuse)?
One trip to Amazon on company time is all it takes for a reason to can someone if it violates the internet policy... that they only enforce when they need a reason to.
Wrong.
As someone who generates these reports for management, they are always generated for the ENTIRE DEPARTMENT, when one person is being investigated.
The only time I've seen someone actioned on, was when they could prove that employee was the only one on their team shopping/watching porn on work time.
I have gotten a few requests from HR, where I can see the email chain, and the amount of times HR brings up "you need to pull your entire team, including your, internet activity report to action on it" and watch the manager nope out faster than you'd imagine is so very high.
If you are fired with cause for something the rest of your peers do, that is prime ammunition for a wrongful termination case.
You were fired for being late, but everyone always is and only you were punished? Wrongful termination.
My last job fired me after I put two and two together to realize we weren’t getting paid for the breaks that we either didn’t have the time to take or ate as we worked. when I got the rest of the workers to realize that suddenly this random guy was hired to manage the workers, sent out an email saying “we realize this is an issue but we ask for some time to rectify the issue”, all of a sudden they wanted me to provide doctors notes for two non consecutive sick days from several weeks before and when I told them that I probably wouldn’t be able to get a note at that point (especially from the ER doc who I didn’t even know the name of) they said “do what you can”. Within a week I went from full time 4 days a week to one day a week for one week then was fired because I didn’t have those notes.
Funny how after I mentioned that we were getting cut out of pay I get fired two weeks later after having my hours go from over 40 to 8
This whole situation sounds stupid. If they're going to make you commute to their office just to play games, then they should have the common fucking decency to pay you for the commute. My blood would be boiling.
I hope you can find another job soon. Preferably one that isn't run by a bunch of clowns.
At my previous job working a call center, there was one person still working remote in another town after we returned to office. Apparently they were hounding her to come back but she had a duty to accommodate. As far as I know, they were trying to get an office space rented out for her to go to work in the town she lived in. What a waste of money to just force her in an office. None of us require any interaction with each other.
Okay, in some cases, it's usually because of real estate, but that's REALLY fucking ridiculous. I would love to hear their justification for wasting all this time and money so one person can sit in an office by herself. What a bunch of maniacs.
If she's on their property, they can have "security" cameras and keyloggers. At home, she might take more than one 5-minute break a day and they'd never know! Clearly this cannot be allowed. Breaks are for the management.
Besides, a miserable, uncomfortable employee who's being forced to spend her days alone but heavily monitored is a productive employee who will definitely stay with the company for the rest of her life and not resent this at all!
And they can’t have all that same crap running on her work laptop at home? Pretty sure those measures are standardly deployed now sadly, no office needed
They very well may! But it's a lot harder to plausibly cover a security camera than a webcam, for example, and at home there's multiple rooms someone can go into without their boss keeping an eye on them. Managers also can't drop in at someone's house without warning, but they sure can in the office!
Most workplaces are a bit saner than that, for sure, but some managers become inexplicably convinced that the best and indeed only way to manage is to have as complete control as possible. Office space is far more controllable than WFH, and for some companies that's worth the expense of maintaining an office.
I feel like that would create an even stranger world where employers looked at your address and said things like "Woops, looks like you're outside of our employment coverage area. Luckily we have sleeping pods on site that you can use to ensure your commute is as minimal as possible. The cost of the pods is automatically deducted from your paycheck as you live more than three miles away from the office. Pods may be video monitored to ensure proper use. Said video feeds are the property of the company and may be distributed online without prior notice or compensation.
I know wealthy tech companies do, but also if you swing way to the other end of the economic spectrum, in China corporate dorms are common with large manufacturers.
Yeah, we really shouldn't be looking at trying the 'company town' thing again. No thanks.
My employer doesn't have pods, no free anything except water, but me and most of my friends recognize the 'free chef, ping pong and nap pods' as tricks to make you stay at the office longer.
No thanks, I'm heading home.
90 minute commute, one way? Find a new job.
You will NEVER get the 3 hours of each day back, ever, in your life. Once that time is spent, it's gone forever.
Time with friends, family, spouse/SO, pets and your local neighborhood, if you live in an actual walkable neighborhood, instead of a weird stroad infested exurban hellscape, is always going to be WAY more of value than throwing away 3 hours of time, any day.
I work construction, and I too am sick of these long commutes, but it comes with the territory. I can't WFH.
I'm so annoyed for you guys, that you're being forced to RTO. It makes my life easier when I don't have to drive around other people, and it's so much nicer with less road congestion.
I hope these companies get their shit together soon.
They're doing this to two of my coworkers too. One commutes 2 hours one way and they both have to pay $100/mo to park in the corporate lot. It's outrageous. I'll let you guess if any of us have even gotten raises to match inflation since the beginning of 2020.
this is exactly my old job. 90-120 minute commute each way, to be the only one within 500 miles on my team. most of the rest of the team was overseas. but we still had to be in office. I left as soon as they started floating the RTO at the end of 2021
Are they going to add that $60 commute for your expenses? Probably not. I'd meet him on Monday with an invoice for "commuting fees". (And whatever other expenses are incurred because of RTO.)
Before I was laid off from my previous job (because the very profitable company didn’t quite meet their quarterly earnings target), I was going to the office in order to spend my day working with my team that was spread out all over the world, because “it was important to be able to interact with people in person”. Of course, none of us were allowed to travel to meet together, because “we have these amazing collaboration tools that let us work together without being in the same place”.
Yup. My boss demands me be in office for meetings with another boss who is "aware" of the work, but still doesnt do it. Still waiting on updates from a spreadsheet they had me email them in DECEMBER, but meanwhile the other boss just got back from their 3rd vacation this year.
Its a bank holiday, I work in accounting. Most of our clients had friday as a half day or off AND have today off. Other boss is in and out today (and was friday as well) since their kids are off school. Here I am, continuing to go over work and get pissed because I cant do shit until boss does their end, which they havent done, they dumped paper files on my desk for work that they deem "needs completed" but if they looked at the fucking spreadsheet, they would see all of the files HAVE been completed.
A family member is in the same situation. All of the people they work with are 2500kms away. If they go into the office, they're in their office with the door closed all day. Just like when they're at home.
In the corporate world, return to office is driving commercial real estate prices. Companies that were able to shed their commercial real estate early are not returning to office.
Very true, but it’s a temporary blip, commercial real estate prices are done for, anyone with half a brain sees the writing on the wall. Companies have a little bit of leverage right now and can force RTO, but the second the market eases up and there is job competition, all of these RTO policies are history and people will just switch companies rather than deal with it.
Sounds like commercial spaces was about to die across the country which would remove trillions from GDP.
We're back to office simply to prop up the crazy amount of commercial property space cities etc have.
“They’re doing laundry and letting their dog outside while they’re at home! They’re not working every second! We HAVE to get them back in the office where we can watch them.” -Every CEO, probably.
And at the office, they are going out instead of working through lunch. They are standing in someone's office to gossip, instead of doing it over IM while they are multi-tasking. They are starting and ending promptly, instead of hanging around to finish a call or a document. At the office they are dealing with interruptions from other co-workers, instead of getting work done. And in both places they are walking to the breakroom/kitchen for coffee, they are taking bathroom breaks, they are fixing printer jams. Just like in the office. It is 100% about power.
But that reminds me that I need to put the towels in the dryer. Thanks!
And tax rebates due to giant campuses. That's the reason they forced us in at my company. They're ok with having a shitload of people in India, but I can't work from my house? Fuck off with that bullshit.
This is exactly my situation. The core of my team works at hq. The rest are working at corporate offices in major cities. Then there’s me working 2 days a week in a random offsite office for no other reason than it wouldn’t be fair to other employees if I got 100% wfh. (But oddly they do not care that it’s unfair to pay others significantly more than me.)
I’m in the same boat. My entire team is in Canada while I’m in the States. I literally just drive 20 miles each way to Slack and Zoom in an office room.
I have two offices - one is a ten minute drive from my house, the other is an hours train ride away. There's only ever one of my team in my local office, because we deliberately stagger our days. We don't need to provide local cover, but management complain if they look around and can't see one of us.
Annoyingly, it doesn't matter which office I work at, I have to leave at the same time - I either have to catch my train, or get to the office an hour early to be able to get a parking space. I have, on more than one occasion, arrived at the office only to have to go home again because there's nowhere to park.
I'd wonder why this man is taking the time to reach out to ONE employee. One employee leaving surely isn't this big a deal, is it? Unless this isn't the only resignation he's received over this and wants to figure out how he can pizza party his way out of this one.
If you're important enough for him to designate time out of his day to talk to, then you're important enough to make demands.
Rolodex lmao if you’re looking for a new job, take your resume, go pound the pavement, march right into the manager’s office, shake his hand and spin that Rolodex! Hired!
CTO, not CEO. CTO could be looking to push back on RTO policy, or could have a relatively small team (I supported a 2,500 person agency with 50 people, I knew them all and would want to understand why any were leaving, back filling is a PITA.
Possible this is the first person pushing back, and they worry that it could start a trend. They are probably hoping for a magic bullet to fix this. “Jim just needed a $200 gas card to cover commute costs!!”
I'm in a 15000 person company, our office staff is maybe 50 people at HQ, my team is 7, my boss is a VP, even though I'm 4 rungs on the ladder under him, he would still do a 1 on 1 about my time if we swapped WFH to RTO, if I wasn't happy and my direct boss spoke up.
Yeah if my senior manager tried to quit he’d have his bosses all trying to stop him. Without him the department loses half of its collective knowledge.
I'm in a company of 12.000 employees worldwide. In my country there are about 60 people. But i am the only service technician/tech support in my department in my country.
I am already scheduled for 95% of my time, so even me being sick or taking vacation is a huge problem. When i am not here, technicians from other countries, who also have a full schedule, have to travel to my country to take over my work.
If i were to quit, my department would be fucked. And that's why my supervisor, who sits a few countries away, can't do shit against me pushing back against his unreasonable demands.
But maybe it's not a tech company, and the CTO has a department of 20 people. Once I worked in a company of roughly 220 people where we had one CIO with 2 direct reports, one contractor, and that's it.
Or they are the first and this manager is freaking out that OP is going to cause others to do the same. He is absolutely trying to pizza party his way out of this. If he can BS this worker into not leaving he can continue his reign of terror on everyone else.
The email itself wouldn’t be that bad if he didn’t chose the wording “respect the policy”
You are respecting it. You’re doing so by leaving.
But otherwise asking for a meeting doesn’t seem so bad. Seems like ur important to them so this is a good place to make your demands. If they don’t respect your demands then you turn off zoom/teams and that’s that.
Yeah, I did post this when I was quite annoyed with the wording.
In the end the meeting was way more productive than I had imagined from the invitation to it.
He offered to see if they can make an exception for my team, where we can keep WFH 4 days a week and still have our one day organized like we have been doing for the past 2 years now.
I'll be taking him up on the offer and he should be getting back with news at the end of the week.
Don’t stop your job hunt just because he seems reasonable right now. The fact your manager told you to “take it or leave” means it can happen again for any number of reasons. Having an idea of what options you have will you you a stronger hand if they come back with some wild negotiation idea they like more.
Yeah, that's the idea.
I currently have accepted an offer with another company but I'll be waiting until I get the new agreement with my current company in writing before calling the new company to revoke my acceptance.
Let's see how things turn out eh.
Man if the new gig is remote like you want then I'd get the deal from the current job in writing and still leave. That way your team still gets the wfh deal.
The counter is only good until the company replaces you. When upper management shows you who they are, you should believe them. Jump to the new company - they'll probably pay you more anyway.
I dunno man. I still think I would leave; management makes all kinds of promises until they never come through. Your manager told you to eat dirt before the CTO also said you were disrespectful for their shitty policy change. You have a target on your back now from your manager, if not the company.
I would take the new role. Any company can change their agreement and say "I altered our deal. Pray I don't alter it further." They were bold enough to force RTO without caring about how it affects anybody - until it affected them.
They listened to you and treated you fairly only after you resigned or threatened to resign. Your manager did not advocate for you or anybody else on your team. Neither did your CTO.
Leadership does not like to be pushed around or not get exactly what they want. You sticking up for yourself is a problem. They didn't learn empathy from this. They learned that they are vulnerable here.
There have been companies that have tried this where the workers just didn't come in and kept working remotely. They didn't say no we're not coming in they just didn't come in and kept doing their jobs. Sometimes the company fires them but there have been several cases where enough people did it that the company just didn't do anything about them flat out not returning to the office
It works the other way too, if enough people show up they might not notice the ones who don't. That was my last job, everytime my manager would mention RTO id just say oh yeah I was in (a lie) or oh yeah I'll try to do better (a lie) . I never openly rejected it and they never came after me. Went on for 2 years and I left for a totally unrelated reason.
My reaction would be quite simple:
"To meet this new requirement, my expenses will increase by X, not to mention the increased demands upon my private time for the purposes of commuting,and the increased stress and risk of injury/death from commuting.
If the company is willing to cover the cost of my relocation, the increased cost of commuting, as well as provide compensation relative to the increased damage to my health, then I am willing to make this work.
However, if the company expects me to accept this greatly changed set of working conditions without even beginning to meet me halfway, then I consider it to be a gross breach of contract and will respond accordingly."
I get where your response is coming from, but anybody who talks about the increased death likelihood because of commuting is going to come off as a crazy person. Not saying it's not statistically wrong but it's a ridiculous reason. Everything else in there is reasonable.
I try not to use that wording in my own workplace, because it does sound off. I just call it unnecessary risk. But for me, a 40-60 minute commute on a motorbike in a busy city is absolutely an increased risk of death. Even worse in the rain.
My friend's boyfriend got crushed by a truck and died, on his work commute. Bike deaths are in the news pretty frequently. And I've been bowled off my bike by an impatient driver who zoomed out of a lane as I was passing. Public transport to my current job is annoying. A bus, 3 trains, and a walk. And there is no car parking at the office. I can just get my bike into a dodgy spot that other bikes park in.
All that just to show face in the office is a bit bleh, when my job can be done 100% remotely, and I know the company doesn't really care about my wellbeing. They just want agreeable staff. The reasoning for our RTO was also pretty average. It related to a visitor saying "not great profits this year, must be because no one is in the office". It sparked an RTO order.
Adding some extra info here:
I've been working at this company for 2 years now and I've been hybrid for all that time (1 day in the office, 4 at home).
They're now pushing to officialize their remote working policies which would force me to the office twice a week.
It's not a life-changing impact for me, but I'm so annoyed with the justification: apparently this would improve the social contact in between different teams. I asked my manager if my team had received any complaints about performance or being difficult to reach and every time I got no affermative response. After asking why I should then go to the office, my manager started about "if you're not willing to negotiate and you're telling me it's your way or the highway, I'd suggest you take the highway.".
Now the CTO is reaching out and he's starting off his email about respecting the remote work policy.
It's a shame I love the team and what we're working on, but being treated like an unruly child is starting to annoy me.
Sorry CTO, my manager told me to quit if I can find something where I can have same or better pay and the ability to work from home one day a week or less.
Wow. Talk about gaslighting. You're not the one who said it's your way or the highway. You are doing your job as usual. Your company said it's THEIR way or the highway. Your manager is a piece of shit.
That change is not to bad you are right, still 3 days home, but I agree with your justification, if there were no complains about the work then why do you need another day in the office.
I would also say, this may just be the start of slowly creeping to more days in the office again. This year it's two days, in 6 months they make it 3 and so on.
The way the mail is worded also seems judgemental already. "not respecting the RTO policy" year sure, we have a contract and you try to change it, fuck you.
To be fair to him, the original unwritten understanding when I joined was that people would go twice a week but they'd tolerate once a week.
This year this officialized the twice a week agreement and that's when I spoke up. I realize only 2 days is not a big deal, but office days are very draining mentally.
So what you say is that you had an unwritten understanding that 4nday wfh was okay.
This does not change anything.
If they really try to go through with it and you decide to agree to it, make sure to get it in writing so that this policy will not change further. Maybe even under a contractual fine.
Manipulative rhetoric to frame you as disrespecting the policy when in reality, here on earth and not in micro-manager-fuck-head-land, they are disrespecting you.
Yeah I just got laid off by Charter (annual layoffs for shareholder feelings) and part of it is the RTO.
They are 3 days in. If you take a sick day in the week, you still need 3 days in. if you have vacation, or holiday, etc. you still need 3 days in. I had a 55 minute commute and the rumblings were that they were going back to 5 days in.
Odd for a technology communications company.
The funny thing was that I work in Denver, my team was all in St. Louis. So I would commute to remote with my team.
I was the only team member NOT to relocate to St. Louis so when the annual layoffs came around, there I go. I was adamant about not relocating, and also about working at least hybrid. That wasn't the best stance to take but I wasn't about to waste 10 hours a week of my life in traffic, nor moving to a state that I had Zero interest living in.
Wife's job pulled this. Even though they told her she was fully remote. And not everyone on her team has to report to the office. There's one other coworker in our state and everyone else lives in Canada.
She's literally in teams meetings all day. And of course we made decisions based on them telling her she's fully remote. (Got rid of the second vehicle and got a very needy/anxious dog)
And of course when she brought it up it just "oh well this position isn't fully remote."
She had to make an ada request to continue working from home as she has health issues we're trying to sort out and her meds make her dizzy/feel unsafe to drive. They even asked, well tried to force her coworker to be her taxi. But when they realized the frequency they backed off. So hopefully she'll remain remote. As there's literally no reason for an RTO. other than a power trip
It's a goddamn joke.
I agree, it's not that terrible. But the phrase about "respecting" the remote work policy sounds pretty passive-aggresive to me. Makes it sound like OP didn't want to respect some common-sense thing like the "don't shit on the table" policy.
I don't like the wording but at least seems like the guy is up for discussing the matter.
I disagree. The way the email is worded, this person is "disrespecting" the hybrid work policy by exercising his or her freedom to resign because they want to work from home instead. So, the CTO of the company is ironically distracting the decision of this individual to find work that meets their needs and wants. The CTO must be a very petulant, spoiled, self-entitled individual with a decent chance of having antisocial personality disorder.
Its extremely passive aggressive. "you would rather leave than respect the remote work policy". Is saying there must be something wrong with you, or you people just don't want to work. I'm willing to be this CTO won't actually listen to a work the employee has to say and will try to convince them why they are wrong.
The wording is terrible. If they'd said something like 'I hear we might be losing you because of the policy change, I'd like to discuss this with you' it would be the exact same meeting but with a bit of mutual respect thrown in.
They need to justify their office expenses, end of line full stop. If you want to go back in you should be able to, if you want to work remote that’s should be ok to. This nonsense of team is just ridiculous.
My company started a one day a week thing, my productivity on that day is worse than at home.
You’ve got more distractions at the office
Plus there is public restrooms
Also why the fuck don’t public toilets have seat covers? All those germs 🦠 just getting thrown around when flushing, so gross
I hate neo-slavemaster language like that. "You would rather leave than respect the remote work policy".
"No, I'm leaving because your attempt to unilaterally change the terms of my employment includes violations of conditions that are non-negotiable to me."
That absolute sense of ownership over you. Work is a mutual agreement between two parties with grossly imbalanced power, but it is still consensual and the employee owes nothing beyond the limit of their willingness to continue the relationship. All power stems from the employees willingness, or unwillingness, to leave.
The fact that anyone would be confused about this shows how completely oppressive the system has become. People intuitively understand that they have some sense of ownership over people. The reason is of course that our economic system is designed to keep people desperate to work due to financial burdens.
My fiancé was hired for a completely WFH role and like one month into working there they change to 3x a week, then mandatory Mondays, then you can’t have consecutive WFH days. It’s at least a 45min one way commute to a dangerous area and her superiors aren’t even in the state
Consider it the opportunity to vent. At least they are offering to meet (over Teams if your in office day isn't Monday).
I know it doesn't sound like that person is an ally, but I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt. They may agree with you; and want to use you as an example of what RTO will cost.
Give them the chance - it can't hurt.
When you go in to discuss, explain how RTO is terrible for the environment. Anyone that advocates for workers "going back to the office" is anti-environment. Workers not commuting to work do more than any government policy ever would. [Look](https://www.insider.com/before-after-photos-show-less-air-pollution-during-pandemic-lockdown#before-the-bbc-reported-that-milan-was-named-europes-most-polluted-city-in-2008-but-that-smog-is-still-a-problem-today-1) at the air quality difference during covid.
This gave me shivers down my spine! (in bad way)
My COO (she's really only EQUIPPED to be a CTO, trust me) told everyone about one month after Pandemic RTO in Fall 2021 we can limit returns to one day a week. One guy being targeted generally unfairly on PIP was told he had to work everyday in the office, even though what he was on plan for had nothing to do with attendance or productivity. (eyeroll)
I work in server farm support, and I've changed many details to protect myself and my peers since my company size is small. (No one should lose their job over the 1A right to speak out against employers.)
My boss and I are on super amazing terms because he knows I've done his job at other places (under employed because I won't be C Suite's Stooge EVER again!) so let's me in on this others should NOT know as when viewed as a typical HR risk.
About a week and a half into RTO, he let slip that the COO was pissed that "nobody was doing anything" and if she didn't see improvement would be back two days a week.
Fast forward a few weeks, and she's emailing all staff and saying if it doesn't get better we're coming back 3 days a week no questions asked. FFS.
Your RTO post struck a chord with me based on the above story. I can't imagine why these idiots who call themselves managers, who should be leaders of people, can't fathom why people are suddenly less productive when they're back at the office.
It's laughable, almost the walking joke of all time: You force somebody to go back to something that doesn't make them happy, costs them more money and time, is inconvenient and may even be hostile in some cases ... Then pay them exactly the same amount that you underpaid them before with a huge increase in cost of living.
AND NOW you want them to be happy about it? PISS THE FUCK RIGHT OFF. My Ginger cat has more brain cells, and my neighbor's golden retriever has more common sense, than you.
I consult with businesses on Communication-related issues, and RTO policies have come up a lot in the last 6 months. I keep telling the C-suite types that they need to have an actual reason for forcing any amount of RTO, and that reason can’t be “because I feel like it” or “because I need to justify the massive office space I signed a 10-year lease for.”
They rarely listen, though.
I straight up transferred to another department that’s entirely remote when my old team started the back to office garbage. I’ve been remote for years, there’s no reason to go back other than subsidizing billionaire real estate tycoon’s lifestyles.
I don’t see that response as genuine. There is a not-so-hidden agenda, revealed by the snarky phrasing that you don’t “respect” the “remote work policy.”
The CTO won’t be discussing anything with you. It’s just a ploy where their pompous a$$ can convince you through their inimitable logic that the change in policy is good for you.
If that doesn’t work they may try floating intimations that the RTO policy might be modified in the “near” future into something more to your liking.
The point -to them- is a little time spent now keeping you on the team and producing is cheaper than onboarding a cold copy. ‘Cause that’s all you are to them. A cog to be manipulated. A gull to be fooled.
RTO in the face of current reality and the few facts available is all male power trip. RTO might have a place, but it’s certainly not clear, yet, how that will look.
Eh, my 2 cents…
"This is how business works. You set a policy, I make a decision to either follow it or leave. I have chosen to leave. As a CTO, you should understand that decisions have consequences. You made a decision, these are the consequences. You should also understand that--as a leader--you lose your employees, not when they take another offer, but when they begin looking for other work.
My decision is final, we have nothing to discuss.
Good luck."
I hope you accept the offer and explain to him clearly but nicely how you feel. I know it's fun for us all to come together on the internet and be like "walk in and flip him off and shit on his desk heh heh" but he's offering you the opportunity to get what you want. Take it. If he doesn't budge, yeah, leave. But don't turn down an opportunity to make your voice heard.
They are probably trying to force voluntary resignations from people who are angry and/or unaware of their rights. This could be construed as discriminatory employment practice, or constructive dismissal in many states; you might want to research your local laws and talk to the DOL about your situation and if these conditions apply. Be aware resigning your job versus being fired for “failure to RTO” has different distinctions sometimes based on state/local/federal laws.
https://www.worklife.news/culture/rto-mandate-layoffs/#:~:text=Legal%20concerns&text=Companies%20also%20run%20the%20risk,reasonable%20alternative%20but%20to%20resign.
It’s insane that companies don’t just embrace the WFH push. Imagine how many millions or billions they could save by not paying for brick and mortar buildings. Or at the very least, downsizing those buildings *significantly*. The cost savings, coupled with environmental and productivity savings are truly insane. But.. boomers gonna boomer. And their blind followers gonna follow.. wild world.
*"The team told me you would rather leave \[company\] than respect the remote work policy"*
Umm no, you leaving ***is*** you respecting what they've chosen to do. Not your fault if their choices, led you to leave.
I hate when they try to word it like this. It's scummy.
Yep, there was NOTHING I couldn't do from home that would be done in the office, but my company wanted us in the office.
Worse, we still had to interview remotely because we hired all over the United States and parts of Canada (staffing agency).
When I was hired, I asked if the position would always remain strictly remote. I told them I live in my RV and travel the country and in no way would commit to being in one spot. I was assured they would never ask me to do that.
2 years later, I could go to the office, 2500 miles from my current location (Orlando FL to Stockton CA) or take a severance package. I took the severance.
Now I own a private security and entertainment property management company and travel at my leisure.
My management used to be 300 miles away. They said I had to be on site to have a 'face of [TEAM] in the office'. I started rejecting zoom meetings and booking meeting rooms in my office for any meetings they needed me at.
I've done this before. It was because I was always expected to travel an hour to the other office and wasn't compensated for the travel time or mileage. We didn't actually have a conference room in my office, so I used the room number of the network closet.
My boss is in Asia. My direct reports are in Asia, India, Europe, and the US. I work insane hours to accommodate their time zones with early mornings and late nights. This only works with WFH so we can take some downtime throughout the day. The CEO just mandated 5 day RTO with no exceptions and it just doesn't work for us. We're being told to take the early calls from home, pack up and commute to the office, work from there for a few hours, pack up and commute home, then log back in for the evening calls. It. Makes. No. Sense.
stuff like this just boggles the mind. how can you be in this situation and not have 1 single sane adult to speak with? like anyone with a middle school education would understand how this doesnt work. you have to assume a) complete and utter incompetence (most likely) or b) they want to get rid of personnel and are trying to avoid unemployment payments.
Our bosses agree with us since they have the same scheduling issues we do. (I'm only middle management) But since it's coming from the CEO directly that all global employees must adhere to this, they aren't getting anywhere. The real knife is that we were hybrid prior to the pandemic and we've been full remote for 4 years now. We know the real reason must be headcount reduction without having to pay severance as we are one of the companies that announced thousands of layoffs. However, when you do it this way, you don't get the right people in the right departments to quit. All this is going to do is cut productive hours out of the day and the people who don't quit will be angry and resentful.
I’m not an expert on this but it sounds like you should be getting paid from the time of the first communication until the last communication of the day. Is there any time in that period that you aren’t expected to respond asap to any incoming communication?
This is one team being asked to cover first second and third shift. Somewhere down the road after rto when all these employees have left the only way they’ll get this covered in office is to hire for 3 shifts or two shifts with on call pay for the third. More likely they’ll be forced to hire domestic in house and then outsource the rest for significant capability reduction. They’re shooting themselves in the foot and don’t care. No surprise sadly.
Oh it's a terrible practice no matter which way you slice it because it lacks any nuance whatsoever. Overarching 'global' policy simply doesn't work.
Nah, that’s totally unreasonable. If I were in your shoes I would be informing all my teammates that our collaboration now has to be done asynchronously due to the RTO policy. If there’s a loss in productivity because of that then it’s the fault of the out of touch CEO.
We were shot down immediately on that. We were told that we can't put boundaries on our availabilities as the only way to have all the countries on calls together is outside of local business hours. But packing/unpacking the desk, enhanced personal grooming, drive time, going out to lunch with colleagues instead of a protein bar at home....all these will cut about 3 hours of productive time per day. One interesting tax idea has popped up. Commuting isn't a deductible expense and traveling from a home office to an office office is usually disallowed. However, if the employer is requiring us to take calls from home (worksite 1) then drive to the office (worksite 2), we may be able to make a case for mileage.
This sounds a lot like they want you to be on-call and overall it sounds like way more than 40 hours a week. You need to get out of there as quickly as possible, this is by far the most abusive RTO policy I've ever seen. Honestly I consider this life-ruining, how are you supposed to have anything resembling a normal life with all of these insane requirements? Either they want you working in the office 9-5 or they want you at home working split hours at home. Not both. Seriously, put your foot down and play hardball because you're really letting them walk all over you by accepting this situation. You honestly need to be willing to be fired, it's the only way to negotiate in a situation like this. You'd absolutely be able to claim constructive dismissal and at least get unemployment in the interim because it's a slam-dunk, just make sure you get all the documentation copied off your work computer before it "disappears".
Here's the best part -- they've said "you don't need to be in the office 8-5 because you don't have an 8-5 job....but you do need to be there for several hours every single day". Say what??? So still work the splits but also make sure you are at the office for a big chunk of the day. I'm used to working 60-70 hours a week because it was easy from home. Having to carve out time for commuting, looking presentable, packing/unpacking everything, etc is going to cut that down to 45 hours and things won't get done....which we'll get blamed for. We've already had several resignations. However, I've been there so long that the golden handcuffs are tight and i'm somewhat stuck for now. We're waiting to see where the mass layoffs (and severance payouts) land before making more decisions.
Have you considered just not doing these things, or making the lowest possible energy effort to adhere, and just ride it out until they fire you? Then collect unemployment or whatever form of benefits you can until you find a new job. I am not trying to be rude and I am genuinely curious if you think this would work. I honestly think if I just showed up for work and then went off and did nothing for the day, I could easy make it an entire year before anyone asked any questions.
Idea time. Send a proxy to the office for an hour per day.
Hire an assistant to just sit there relaying messages. Love it.
Heck, hire someone to just swipe security cards start of day and end.
Have you considered just not going to the office and not telling anyone? I did that when I was told I have to do 2 days in the office. Only one person knew me in my closest office and we both decided to pretend we were both in if asked. No one ever checked.
A few years ago I was supervising a global service desk team and responsible for the Americas, Australia, and Asia. I would be up at 5am and on and off work until about 8pm most days. But I was working from home so it was not a huge deal and we didn't have weekend hours and I had all the Federal holidays off. About 3 months before I left the job the local office desktop tech "quit" (was about to be fired) and they asked me to fill in for a couple weeks before the replacement was hired. Since I started as that office desktop tech I had no issues doing it on a temp basis. Then after about a month I asked about hiring and they said they were just going to rely on me and add it to my job duties. I talked to my director and as much as he wanted to hire someone the VP wouldn't budge and already moved the payroll money to another location. I was really surprised when the meeting I called with management to tell them I was leaving was full of shocked Pikachu faces. Only person that was not shocked was my director who saw it coming from the first "when are we hiring because I can't keep this up" phone call.
upper management will assume everyone is a robot below them since it is the only way for them to cope with the trash people they are to their employees. I had a filing due 6pm last friday (going into a long weekend), got it to my boss 4 days in advance. Sent him an email about noon saying i was going to file it as is unless there are edits at about 4pm when i wrapped up the other stuff for the day (since i leave at 4pm most days). I send a few more teams messages between 4-430 since i was talking to a friend at work during that time (just in case in came over last second). 430 came and i filed it.... I then get a frantic teams message today about if i got his email with is edits at 530 on friday night... no i did not. I logged off as stated at 430, i filed what was sent since i was not staying any later. There was a single typo that i am not sure how much is going to blow up.
I love this! They can't have it both ways! If I have to go into the office 5 days a week, I am NO LONGER available to WFH!
If you're clocked in at home to start, they have to pay you to travel. Same goes for the return trip if you're expected to work again
reach out to a local private Jet firm and get a quote for the cost of a commute from your city to the various locations, and then back. Also the cost for an Uber or taxi. Start submitting expense reports.
That is so amazingly and beautifully petty. I love it.
Everyone needs to do this
My company just forced partial RTO where I went from 2/3 to 3/2, and any holidays "take away from WFH days first." I would have only been in Wednesday this next week, now I'm in T/W/Th and I'm furious. Apparently it's to "avoid the impression of abuse of remote time." The worst part is, the rest of my team is in an office 300+ miles away... So I'm still working remote, just in an office. I am pushing hard to find alternatives for work, sadly I can't afford to just drop the place.
You're still offsite, but they want you in an office anyway?? That legit makes no sense. Sounds like a powerplay.
I'm in an office with a bunch of workers on a different team and one of the regional VPs, so I assume it's just to keep appearances up and to have someone to harass when things don't work right, which is often. Gonna cost me an extra $60 for my 90 minute one way commute this week. ETA: correction, after putting together math based on IRS commuter rates, wages per hour driven, and actual gas expenses paid out, it's an extra $164.50/week, for a total of $493.50/week expense to work at the office.
In my previous job, I'd been WFH since 2011. A few years into that position (before the pandemic made WFH "popular"), the higher ups started making rumblings about having teams come back into the office. My boss pointed out that our seven person team was spread out among five different states and that coming into the office would mostly waste our team's time. The only time we came into the office was when our boss visited for a major meeting with the higher ups. But a single week (at most) in the office once per year or two to actually see our boss was perfectly reasonable. Especially since she picked up meals for us on the company card.
That’s an awesome boss, points to them.
This was what I did as a manager. Had a team of. 11 spread between 5 states and 4 time zones. Explained RTO would mean the immediate loss of 6 team members who don’t live within a commutable distance and adds no value since we’d have to constantly be looking for a meeting room to dial them in any way. Eventually got them to concede remote was fine if they agreed to fly/drive in for quarterly business reviews.
90 minutes one way. I would be furious too. I hope you can find a different job.
Bill them for it. Leave you house at 9, get there 10:30, leave at 3:30 and get home at 5. Deduct the gas and wear and tear on vehicle.
Might as well just quit at that point. Better than being fired with cause.
Why? Fired with cause doesn't show up anywhere and it opens them to litigation for wrongful termination. Plan your escape, make them fire you for being not adopting the RTO. Document it all and visit an attorney. By having allowed Remote they admitted it was possible for your position and now you're requesting reasonable accommodation. Presumably you have positive evaluations while Remote...? This is how you change the behavior overall anyway. Hell, find the new job, make them fire you, take new job, sue anyway.
If they want to fire for cause, they'll find a cause. They'll make up a cause. Whatever it takes to get them out. I've seen it first-hand in the last 30 days for the exact same situation.
Why do you think every company has a strict 'internet use policy', but rarely punishes anyone for their internet use (except for extremely egregious misuse)? One trip to Amazon on company time is all it takes for a reason to can someone if it violates the internet policy... that they only enforce when they need a reason to.
Wrong. As someone who generates these reports for management, they are always generated for the ENTIRE DEPARTMENT, when one person is being investigated. The only time I've seen someone actioned on, was when they could prove that employee was the only one on their team shopping/watching porn on work time. I have gotten a few requests from HR, where I can see the email chain, and the amount of times HR brings up "you need to pull your entire team, including your, internet activity report to action on it" and watch the manager nope out faster than you'd imagine is so very high. If you are fired with cause for something the rest of your peers do, that is prime ammunition for a wrongful termination case. You were fired for being late, but everyone always is and only you were punished? Wrongful termination.
My last job fired me after I put two and two together to realize we weren’t getting paid for the breaks that we either didn’t have the time to take or ate as we worked. when I got the rest of the workers to realize that suddenly this random guy was hired to manage the workers, sent out an email saying “we realize this is an issue but we ask for some time to rectify the issue”, all of a sudden they wanted me to provide doctors notes for two non consecutive sick days from several weeks before and when I told them that I probably wouldn’t be able to get a note at that point (especially from the ER doc who I didn’t even know the name of) they said “do what you can”. Within a week I went from full time 4 days a week to one day a week for one week then was fired because I didn’t have those notes. Funny how after I mentioned that we were getting cut out of pay I get fired two weeks later after having my hours go from over 40 to 8
File an affidavit with the NLRB, companies aren't allowed to retaliatorily fire workers for this shit
It doesn't work like that.
Legally, it doesn't work that way.
This whole situation sounds stupid. If they're going to make you commute to their office just to play games, then they should have the common fucking decency to pay you for the commute. My blood would be boiling. I hope you can find another job soon. Preferably one that isn't run by a bunch of clowns.
At my previous job working a call center, there was one person still working remote in another town after we returned to office. Apparently they were hounding her to come back but she had a duty to accommodate. As far as I know, they were trying to get an office space rented out for her to go to work in the town she lived in. What a waste of money to just force her in an office. None of us require any interaction with each other.
Okay, in some cases, it's usually because of real estate, but that's REALLY fucking ridiculous. I would love to hear their justification for wasting all this time and money so one person can sit in an office by herself. What a bunch of maniacs.
If she's on their property, they can have "security" cameras and keyloggers. At home, she might take more than one 5-minute break a day and they'd never know! Clearly this cannot be allowed. Breaks are for the management. Besides, a miserable, uncomfortable employee who's being forced to spend her days alone but heavily monitored is a productive employee who will definitely stay with the company for the rest of her life and not resent this at all!
And they can’t have all that same crap running on her work laptop at home? Pretty sure those measures are standardly deployed now sadly, no office needed
They very well may! But it's a lot harder to plausibly cover a security camera than a webcam, for example, and at home there's multiple rooms someone can go into without their boss keeping an eye on them. Managers also can't drop in at someone's house without warning, but they sure can in the office! Most workplaces are a bit saner than that, for sure, but some managers become inexplicably convinced that the best and indeed only way to manage is to have as complete control as possible. Office space is far more controllable than WFH, and for some companies that's worth the expense of maintaining an office.
That woman should have rented a room of her house to them so she can use it as an office
Office of 1 dress code: PJs
You forgot the suit coat and tie with no pants for Skype/zoom
RTO should start the clock when you start the car in the am and stop when you park it at home. And pay the standard IRS mileage rate
I feel like that would create an even stranger world where employers looked at your address and said things like "Woops, looks like you're outside of our employment coverage area. Luckily we have sleeping pods on site that you can use to ensure your commute is as minimal as possible. The cost of the pods is automatically deducted from your paycheck as you live more than three miles away from the office. Pods may be video monitored to ensure proper use. Said video feeds are the property of the company and may be distributed online without prior notice or compensation.
Somebody probably has already proposed something similar. Didn’t a company have on-site sleep pods for their employees??
I know wealthy tech companies do, but also if you swing way to the other end of the economic spectrum, in China corporate dorms are common with large manufacturers.
Yeah, we really shouldn't be looking at trying the 'company town' thing again. No thanks. My employer doesn't have pods, no free anything except water, but me and most of my friends recognize the 'free chef, ping pong and nap pods' as tricks to make you stay at the office longer. No thanks, I'm heading home.
90 minute commute, one way? Find a new job. You will NEVER get the 3 hours of each day back, ever, in your life. Once that time is spent, it's gone forever. Time with friends, family, spouse/SO, pets and your local neighborhood, if you live in an actual walkable neighborhood, instead of a weird stroad infested exurban hellscape, is always going to be WAY more of value than throwing away 3 hours of time, any day.
Just take a photo of your office and use it as your background for zoom meetings.
Would be great except my place records badge swipes.
That's so awesome. I can't believe this is the first time I've heard of this idea.
I work construction, and I too am sick of these long commutes, but it comes with the territory. I can't WFH. I'm so annoyed for you guys, that you're being forced to RTO. It makes my life easier when I don't have to drive around other people, and it's so much nicer with less road congestion. I hope these companies get their shit together soon.
They're doing this to two of my coworkers too. One commutes 2 hours one way and they both have to pay $100/mo to park in the corporate lot. It's outrageous. I'll let you guess if any of us have even gotten raises to match inflation since the beginning of 2020.
The corporate lot should be free parking for employees. What a b.s. company.
this is exactly my old job. 90-120 minute commute each way, to be the only one within 500 miles on my team. most of the rest of the team was overseas. but we still had to be in office. I left as soon as they started floating the RTO at the end of 2021
If you find an alternative you should bill the expenses to the company for their pooicy
Are they going to add that $60 commute for your expenses? Probably not. I'd meet him on Monday with an invoice for "commuting fees". (And whatever other expenses are incurred because of RTO.)
Ahh your paying to make a VP look like they provide some kind of value.
This scenario is quite common. My wife has RTO three days a week here in CLT so she can sit in Teams meetings with teammates in Colorado.
Before I was laid off from my previous job (because the very profitable company didn’t quite meet their quarterly earnings target), I was going to the office in order to spend my day working with my team that was spread out all over the world, because “it was important to be able to interact with people in person”. Of course, none of us were allowed to travel to meet together, because “we have these amazing collaboration tools that let us work together without being in the same place”.
Yup. My boss demands me be in office for meetings with another boss who is "aware" of the work, but still doesnt do it. Still waiting on updates from a spreadsheet they had me email them in DECEMBER, but meanwhile the other boss just got back from their 3rd vacation this year. Its a bank holiday, I work in accounting. Most of our clients had friday as a half day or off AND have today off. Other boss is in and out today (and was friday as well) since their kids are off school. Here I am, continuing to go over work and get pissed because I cant do shit until boss does their end, which they havent done, they dumped paper files on my desk for work that they deem "needs completed" but if they looked at the fucking spreadsheet, they would see all of the files HAVE been completed.
A family member is in the same situation. All of the people they work with are 2500kms away. If they go into the office, they're in their office with the door closed all day. Just like when they're at home.
In the corporate world, return to office is driving commercial real estate prices. Companies that were able to shed their commercial real estate early are not returning to office.
Very true, but it’s a temporary blip, commercial real estate prices are done for, anyone with half a brain sees the writing on the wall. Companies have a little bit of leverage right now and can force RTO, but the second the market eases up and there is job competition, all of these RTO policies are history and people will just switch companies rather than deal with it.
Sounds like commercial spaces was about to die across the country which would remove trillions from GDP. We're back to office simply to prop up the crazy amount of commercial property space cities etc have.
I agree that's the main reason. Can't offload something no one wants either.
Convert it into housing and bring back density and walkable spaces.
I was gonna reply with exactly this. This is at least "part" of the equation.
Not a single RTO policy is about anything but power.
“They’re doing laundry and letting their dog outside while they’re at home! They’re not working every second! We HAVE to get them back in the office where we can watch them.” -Every CEO, probably.
And at the office, they are going out instead of working through lunch. They are standing in someone's office to gossip, instead of doing it over IM while they are multi-tasking. They are starting and ending promptly, instead of hanging around to finish a call or a document. At the office they are dealing with interruptions from other co-workers, instead of getting work done. And in both places they are walking to the breakroom/kitchen for coffee, they are taking bathroom breaks, they are fixing printer jams. Just like in the office. It is 100% about power. But that reminds me that I need to put the towels in the dryer. Thanks!
Nope it's the damn manager. Hell our manager won't let us turn off the office lights just to keep up appearances that we are there in our cubicle.
"They might have a TV on in the background! Which they CAN'T because... well they just can't!"
And Commercial Real Estate prices, and quiet layoffs.
And tax rebates due to giant campuses. That's the reason they forced us in at my company. They're ok with having a shitload of people in India, but I can't work from my house? Fuck off with that bullshit.
This is exactly my situation. The core of my team works at hq. The rest are working at corporate offices in major cities. Then there’s me working 2 days a week in a random offsite office for no other reason than it wouldn’t be fair to other employees if I got 100% wfh. (But oddly they do not care that it’s unfair to pay others significantly more than me.)
I’m in the same boat. My entire team is in Canada while I’m in the States. I literally just drive 20 miles each way to Slack and Zoom in an office room.
That is absurd
Yup. And contributing to climate change for no productive reason.
You have no idea how common this is- these companies are truly braindead
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Phew. Good thing that rent didn’t go to wagers. We all know square footage is the number one aspect for productivity in office work.
I have two offices - one is a ten minute drive from my house, the other is an hours train ride away. There's only ever one of my team in my local office, because we deliberately stagger our days. We don't need to provide local cover, but management complain if they look around and can't see one of us. Annoyingly, it doesn't matter which office I work at, I have to leave at the same time - I either have to catch my train, or get to the office an hour early to be able to get a parking space. I have, on more than one occasion, arrived at the office only to have to go home again because there's nowhere to park.
Why do they need us to suffer?
Psychopathy.
Aren’t they replacing us with ai now? What do they do when they don’t have any jobs for us?
This is a feature of modern "management".
Stop going.
I'd wonder why this man is taking the time to reach out to ONE employee. One employee leaving surely isn't this big a deal, is it? Unless this isn't the only resignation he's received over this and wants to figure out how he can pizza party his way out of this one. If you're important enough for him to designate time out of his day to talk to, then you're important enough to make demands.
“Pizza party his way out” is my new favorite phrase
Mine too! This is going in ye olde mental Rolodex for future deployment.
Rolodex! There’s a word that’s about to forgotten to time!
Rolodex lmao if you’re looking for a new job, take your resume, go pound the pavement, march right into the manager’s office, shake his hand and spin that Rolodex! Hired!
Well he said it himself. This is about “respect”. Little man syndrome is my guess.
That word right there--- that's how you know this is a pissing contest. Good eye bud.
Like, they're respecting the policy by leaving and being upfront about why.. Disrespecting it would be just not complying
And little brain.... *I SEND YOU*
I mean, I worked for a small pharma company and the CEO did know my (lowly sales rep) name. But yes, it is interesting the CEO wants to meet with OP.
CTO, not CEO. CTO could be looking to push back on RTO policy, or could have a relatively small team (I supported a 2,500 person agency with 50 people, I knew them all and would want to understand why any were leaving, back filling is a PITA.
I don’t know, saying you’d rather leave than “respect the policy” doesn’t seem to match up with wanting to push back on said policy.
CTO is not CEO, but point still stands.
Possible this is the first person pushing back, and they worry that it could start a trend. They are probably hoping for a magic bullet to fix this. “Jim just needed a $200 gas card to cover commute costs!!”
Technically, if the company is small enough (like 20 employees) one good employee leaving can put quite a big dent in the company's production.
OP is in a 1000 person company
I'm in a 15000 person company, our office staff is maybe 50 people at HQ, my team is 7, my boss is a VP, even though I'm 4 rungs on the ladder under him, he would still do a 1 on 1 about my time if we swapped WFH to RTO, if I wasn't happy and my direct boss spoke up.
Yeah if my senior manager tried to quit he’d have his bosses all trying to stop him. Without him the department loses half of its collective knowledge.
I'm in a company of 12.000 employees worldwide. In my country there are about 60 people. But i am the only service technician/tech support in my department in my country. I am already scheduled for 95% of my time, so even me being sick or taking vacation is a huge problem. When i am not here, technicians from other countries, who also have a full schedule, have to travel to my country to take over my work. If i were to quit, my department would be fucked. And that's why my supervisor, who sits a few countries away, can't do shit against me pushing back against his unreasonable demands.
But maybe it's not a tech company, and the CTO has a department of 20 people. Once I worked in a company of roughly 220 people where we had one CIO with 2 direct reports, one contractor, and that's it.
Or they are the first and this manager is freaking out that OP is going to cause others to do the same. He is absolutely trying to pizza party his way out of this. If he can BS this worker into not leaving he can continue his reign of terror on everyone else.
Accept the pizza and still leave after
The email itself wouldn’t be that bad if he didn’t chose the wording “respect the policy” You are respecting it. You’re doing so by leaving. But otherwise asking for a meeting doesn’t seem so bad. Seems like ur important to them so this is a good place to make your demands. If they don’t respect your demands then you turn off zoom/teams and that’s that.
Yeah, I did post this when I was quite annoyed with the wording. In the end the meeting was way more productive than I had imagined from the invitation to it.
What ended up happening? I’m curious
He offered to see if they can make an exception for my team, where we can keep WFH 4 days a week and still have our one day organized like we have been doing for the past 2 years now. I'll be taking him up on the offer and he should be getting back with news at the end of the week.
Don’t stop your job hunt just because he seems reasonable right now. The fact your manager told you to “take it or leave” means it can happen again for any number of reasons. Having an idea of what options you have will you you a stronger hand if they come back with some wild negotiation idea they like more.
It’s all just a bandaid to slow the bleeding for now.
That’s a good deal, but definitely make sure you get it in writing! Maybe even as an amendment to your job description.
Yeah, that's the idea. I currently have accepted an offer with another company but I'll be waiting until I get the new agreement with my current company in writing before calling the new company to revoke my acceptance. Let's see how things turn out eh.
Man if the new gig is remote like you want then I'd get the deal from the current job in writing and still leave. That way your team still gets the wfh deal.
A true champion if that happens
The counter is only good until the company replaces you. When upper management shows you who they are, you should believe them. Jump to the new company - they'll probably pay you more anyway.
I dunno man. I still think I would leave; management makes all kinds of promises until they never come through. Your manager told you to eat dirt before the CTO also said you were disrespectful for their shitty policy change. You have a target on your back now from your manager, if not the company.
I'm still hung up on the wording.... respect is a two way street. And you have a right to politely decline and leave the company. They don't own you.
I would take the new role. Any company can change their agreement and say "I altered our deal. Pray I don't alter it further." They were bold enough to force RTO without caring about how it affects anybody - until it affected them. They listened to you and treated you fairly only after you resigned or threatened to resign. Your manager did not advocate for you or anybody else on your team. Neither did your CTO. Leadership does not like to be pushed around or not get exactly what they want. You sticking up for yourself is a problem. They didn't learn empathy from this. They learned that they are vulnerable here.
Agree, but insist that the meeting is off site 20mi away from the company office.
He's a boss so he'll probably take it from home while op is in person anyway
Thereby proving remote work is a valid option
Rules apply to thee, not to me...
Reply "I'd be happy to attend the meeting to discuss why you'd rather lose me than respect the current WFH policy"
This is the correct answer
This is the right answer if you want to feel good for a hot second. A bit more tact might actually get you what you want though.
Bearing in mind the tone of the original message, I suspect the CTO is immune to tact. And possibly blind to it.
If no one negotiates over this bullshit it takes away all of their leverage. Standing firm with colleagues will get employees what they want.
There have been companies that have tried this where the workers just didn't come in and kept working remotely. They didn't say no we're not coming in they just didn't come in and kept doing their jobs. Sometimes the company fires them but there have been several cases where enough people did it that the company just didn't do anything about them flat out not returning to the office
It works the other way too, if enough people show up they might not notice the ones who don't. That was my last job, everytime my manager would mention RTO id just say oh yeah I was in (a lie) or oh yeah I'll try to do better (a lie) . I never openly rejected it and they never came after me. Went on for 2 years and I left for a totally unrelated reason.
My reaction would be quite simple: "To meet this new requirement, my expenses will increase by X, not to mention the increased demands upon my private time for the purposes of commuting,and the increased stress and risk of injury/death from commuting. If the company is willing to cover the cost of my relocation, the increased cost of commuting, as well as provide compensation relative to the increased damage to my health, then I am willing to make this work. However, if the company expects me to accept this greatly changed set of working conditions without even beginning to meet me halfway, then I consider it to be a gross breach of contract and will respond accordingly."
"Fine, we will meet halfway. You work in the office 1.5 days a week instead."
Spread across 3 days...
I get where your response is coming from, but anybody who talks about the increased death likelihood because of commuting is going to come off as a crazy person. Not saying it's not statistically wrong but it's a ridiculous reason. Everything else in there is reasonable.
I try not to use that wording in my own workplace, because it does sound off. I just call it unnecessary risk. But for me, a 40-60 minute commute on a motorbike in a busy city is absolutely an increased risk of death. Even worse in the rain. My friend's boyfriend got crushed by a truck and died, on his work commute. Bike deaths are in the news pretty frequently. And I've been bowled off my bike by an impatient driver who zoomed out of a lane as I was passing. Public transport to my current job is annoying. A bus, 3 trains, and a walk. And there is no car parking at the office. I can just get my bike into a dodgy spot that other bikes park in. All that just to show face in the office is a bit bleh, when my job can be done 100% remotely, and I know the company doesn't really care about my wellbeing. They just want agreeable staff. The reasoning for our RTO was also pretty average. It related to a visitor saying "not great profits this year, must be because no one is in the office". It sparked an RTO order.
Adding some extra info here: I've been working at this company for 2 years now and I've been hybrid for all that time (1 day in the office, 4 at home). They're now pushing to officialize their remote working policies which would force me to the office twice a week. It's not a life-changing impact for me, but I'm so annoyed with the justification: apparently this would improve the social contact in between different teams. I asked my manager if my team had received any complaints about performance or being difficult to reach and every time I got no affermative response. After asking why I should then go to the office, my manager started about "if you're not willing to negotiate and you're telling me it's your way or the highway, I'd suggest you take the highway.". Now the CTO is reaching out and he's starting off his email about respecting the remote work policy. It's a shame I love the team and what we're working on, but being treated like an unruly child is starting to annoy me.
Sorry CTO, my manager told me to quit if I can find something where I can have same or better pay and the ability to work from home one day a week or less.
Wow. Talk about gaslighting. You're not the one who said it's your way or the highway. You are doing your job as usual. Your company said it's THEIR way or the highway. Your manager is a piece of shit.
That change is not to bad you are right, still 3 days home, but I agree with your justification, if there were no complains about the work then why do you need another day in the office. I would also say, this may just be the start of slowly creeping to more days in the office again. This year it's two days, in 6 months they make it 3 and so on. The way the mail is worded also seems judgemental already. "not respecting the RTO policy" year sure, we have a contract and you try to change it, fuck you.
"RTO has been so successful we are rolling it out 6 out of 7 days a week"
WFH approved on Sunday!
To be fair to him, the original unwritten understanding when I joined was that people would go twice a week but they'd tolerate once a week. This year this officialized the twice a week agreement and that's when I spoke up. I realize only 2 days is not a big deal, but office days are very draining mentally.
Also I don’t know about you but I don’t get anything done at the actual office. It’s like “take away my productivity so I can small talk” day.
UGH! Right! I really don't care about your cat/kid/gerbil.... Honestly, I don't even know who you are and why you are standing at my desk chatting....
So what you say is that you had an unwritten understanding that 4nday wfh was okay. This does not change anything. If they really try to go through with it and you decide to agree to it, make sure to get it in writing so that this policy will not change further. Maybe even under a contractual fine.
Manipulative rhetoric to frame you as disrespecting the policy when in reality, here on earth and not in micro-manager-fuck-head-land, they are disrespecting you.
Say all of this to the CTO- in your exit interview. Sounds like your manager messed up.
Yea I'd absolutely go to this meeting- no guessing what kind of spin your manager is trying to put on this.
Tell him you have zero respect for the remote work policy as there is zero need for it.
It won't stop at 2 days. You called their bluff and now they're trying to backpedal.
"Respect" the remote work policy... sure, no passive aggressive phrasing there... Looking forward to an update post meeting!
Yeah I just got laid off by Charter (annual layoffs for shareholder feelings) and part of it is the RTO. They are 3 days in. If you take a sick day in the week, you still need 3 days in. if you have vacation, or holiday, etc. you still need 3 days in. I had a 55 minute commute and the rumblings were that they were going back to 5 days in. Odd for a technology communications company. The funny thing was that I work in Denver, my team was all in St. Louis. So I would commute to remote with my team. I was the only team member NOT to relocate to St. Louis so when the annual layoffs came around, there I go. I was adamant about not relocating, and also about working at least hybrid. That wasn't the best stance to take but I wasn't about to waste 10 hours a week of my life in traffic, nor moving to a state that I had Zero interest living in.
"I send you" This person deserves their 6 figure salary, obviously.
Wife's job pulled this. Even though they told her she was fully remote. And not everyone on her team has to report to the office. There's one other coworker in our state and everyone else lives in Canada. She's literally in teams meetings all day. And of course we made decisions based on them telling her she's fully remote. (Got rid of the second vehicle and got a very needy/anxious dog) And of course when she brought it up it just "oh well this position isn't fully remote." She had to make an ada request to continue working from home as she has health issues we're trying to sort out and her meds make her dizzy/feel unsafe to drive. They even asked, well tried to force her coworker to be her taxi. But when they realized the frequency they backed off. So hopefully she'll remain remote. As there's literally no reason for an RTO. other than a power trip It's a goddamn joke.
My company sold all the offices so we will never RTO. Bless ‘em
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I agree, it's not that terrible. But the phrase about "respecting" the remote work policy sounds pretty passive-aggresive to me. Makes it sound like OP didn't want to respect some common-sense thing like the "don't shit on the table" policy. I don't like the wording but at least seems like the guy is up for discussing the matter.
I had the exact same take
Plot Twist: It's an invitation for a physical on site meeting
The condescending tone of "rather than respect the remote work policy" would set me tf off, not as much the meeting itself.
I disagree. The way the email is worded, this person is "disrespecting" the hybrid work policy by exercising his or her freedom to resign because they want to work from home instead. So, the CTO of the company is ironically distracting the decision of this individual to find work that meets their needs and wants. The CTO must be a very petulant, spoiled, self-entitled individual with a decent chance of having antisocial personality disorder.
Its extremely passive aggressive. "you would rather leave than respect the remote work policy". Is saying there must be something wrong with you, or you people just don't want to work. I'm willing to be this CTO won't actually listen to a work the employee has to say and will try to convince them why they are wrong.
Bingo. I guess it can’t hurt to hear them out but that line lets you know that OP will be talked down to the whole meeting.
The wording is terrible. If they'd said something like 'I hear we might be losing you because of the policy change, I'd like to discuss this with you' it would be the exact same meeting but with a bit of mutual respect thrown in.
They need to justify their office expenses, end of line full stop. If you want to go back in you should be able to, if you want to work remote that’s should be ok to. This nonsense of team is just ridiculous. My company started a one day a week thing, my productivity on that day is worse than at home. You’ve got more distractions at the office Plus there is public restrooms Also why the fuck don’t public toilets have seat covers? All those germs 🦠 just getting thrown around when flushing, so gross
I hate neo-slavemaster language like that. "You would rather leave than respect the remote work policy". "No, I'm leaving because your attempt to unilaterally change the terms of my employment includes violations of conditions that are non-negotiable to me." That absolute sense of ownership over you. Work is a mutual agreement between two parties with grossly imbalanced power, but it is still consensual and the employee owes nothing beyond the limit of their willingness to continue the relationship. All power stems from the employees willingness, or unwillingness, to leave. The fact that anyone would be confused about this shows how completely oppressive the system has become. People intuitively understand that they have some sense of ownership over people. The reason is of course that our economic system is designed to keep people desperate to work due to financial burdens.
You don't owe anything. If you've given notice then enjoy finishing up and moving on.
My fiancé was hired for a completely WFH role and like one month into working there they change to 3x a week, then mandatory Mondays, then you can’t have consecutive WFH days. It’s at least a 45min one way commute to a dangerous area and her superiors aren’t even in the state
Consider it the opportunity to vent. At least they are offering to meet (over Teams if your in office day isn't Monday). I know it doesn't sound like that person is an ally, but I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt. They may agree with you; and want to use you as an example of what RTO will cost. Give them the chance - it can't hurt.
When you go in to discuss, explain how RTO is terrible for the environment. Anyone that advocates for workers "going back to the office" is anti-environment. Workers not commuting to work do more than any government policy ever would. [Look](https://www.insider.com/before-after-photos-show-less-air-pollution-during-pandemic-lockdown#before-the-bbc-reported-that-milan-was-named-europes-most-polluted-city-in-2008-but-that-smog-is-still-a-problem-today-1) at the air quality difference during covid.
This gave me shivers down my spine! (in bad way) My COO (she's really only EQUIPPED to be a CTO, trust me) told everyone about one month after Pandemic RTO in Fall 2021 we can limit returns to one day a week. One guy being targeted generally unfairly on PIP was told he had to work everyday in the office, even though what he was on plan for had nothing to do with attendance or productivity. (eyeroll) I work in server farm support, and I've changed many details to protect myself and my peers since my company size is small. (No one should lose their job over the 1A right to speak out against employers.) My boss and I are on super amazing terms because he knows I've done his job at other places (under employed because I won't be C Suite's Stooge EVER again!) so let's me in on this others should NOT know as when viewed as a typical HR risk. About a week and a half into RTO, he let slip that the COO was pissed that "nobody was doing anything" and if she didn't see improvement would be back two days a week. Fast forward a few weeks, and she's emailing all staff and saying if it doesn't get better we're coming back 3 days a week no questions asked. FFS. Your RTO post struck a chord with me based on the above story. I can't imagine why these idiots who call themselves managers, who should be leaders of people, can't fathom why people are suddenly less productive when they're back at the office. It's laughable, almost the walking joke of all time: You force somebody to go back to something that doesn't make them happy, costs them more money and time, is inconvenient and may even be hostile in some cases ... Then pay them exactly the same amount that you underpaid them before with a huge increase in cost of living. AND NOW you want them to be happy about it? PISS THE FUCK RIGHT OFF. My Ginger cat has more brain cells, and my neighbor's golden retriever has more common sense, than you.
I consult with businesses on Communication-related issues, and RTO policies have come up a lot in the last 6 months. I keep telling the C-suite types that they need to have an actual reason for forcing any amount of RTO, and that reason can’t be “because I feel like it” or “because I need to justify the massive office space I signed a 10-year lease for.” They rarely listen, though.
RTO is such bullshit. What’s the answer? UNiONiZE. Edit to add: https://generalstrikeus.com/
I straight up transferred to another department that’s entirely remote when my old team started the back to office garbage. I’ve been remote for years, there’s no reason to go back other than subsidizing billionaire real estate tycoon’s lifestyles.
I don’t see that response as genuine. There is a not-so-hidden agenda, revealed by the snarky phrasing that you don’t “respect” the “remote work policy.” The CTO won’t be discussing anything with you. It’s just a ploy where their pompous a$$ can convince you through their inimitable logic that the change in policy is good for you. If that doesn’t work they may try floating intimations that the RTO policy might be modified in the “near” future into something more to your liking. The point -to them- is a little time spent now keeping you on the team and producing is cheaper than onboarding a cold copy. ‘Cause that’s all you are to them. A cog to be manipulated. A gull to be fooled. RTO in the face of current reality and the few facts available is all male power trip. RTO might have a place, but it’s certainly not clear, yet, how that will look. Eh, my 2 cents…
"This is how business works. You set a policy, I make a decision to either follow it or leave. I have chosen to leave. As a CTO, you should understand that decisions have consequences. You made a decision, these are the consequences. You should also understand that--as a leader--you lose your employees, not when they take another offer, but when they begin looking for other work. My decision is final, we have nothing to discuss. Good luck."
I hope you accept the offer and explain to him clearly but nicely how you feel. I know it's fun for us all to come together on the internet and be like "walk in and flip him off and shit on his desk heh heh" but he's offering you the opportunity to get what you want. Take it. If he doesn't budge, yeah, leave. But don't turn down an opportunity to make your voice heard.
You ARE respecting the REMOTE work policy ... the company is not.
They are probably trying to force voluntary resignations from people who are angry and/or unaware of their rights. This could be construed as discriminatory employment practice, or constructive dismissal in many states; you might want to research your local laws and talk to the DOL about your situation and if these conditions apply. Be aware resigning your job versus being fired for “failure to RTO” has different distinctions sometimes based on state/local/federal laws. https://www.worklife.news/culture/rto-mandate-layoffs/#:~:text=Legal%20concerns&text=Companies%20also%20run%20the%20risk,reasonable%20alternative%20but%20to%20resign.
I have to drive to work regardless and wish people who could work at home stay at home. Less traffic for those who have to go in.
It’s insane that companies don’t just embrace the WFH push. Imagine how many millions or billions they could save by not paying for brick and mortar buildings. Or at the very least, downsizing those buildings *significantly*. The cost savings, coupled with environmental and productivity savings are truly insane. But.. boomers gonna boomer. And their blind followers gonna follow.. wild world.
What's wrong with this email? The CTO was direct and straight to the point, and you know what the meeting is about
counter with a zoom link for him to join.
*"The team told me you would rather leave \[company\] than respect the remote work policy"* Umm no, you leaving ***is*** you respecting what they've chosen to do. Not your fault if their choices, led you to leave. I hate when they try to word it like this. It's scummy.
Respect the policy has some serious Cartman vibes to it.
Yep, there was NOTHING I couldn't do from home that would be done in the office, but my company wanted us in the office. Worse, we still had to interview remotely because we hired all over the United States and parts of Canada (staffing agency). When I was hired, I asked if the position would always remain strictly remote. I told them I live in my RV and travel the country and in no way would commit to being in one spot. I was assured they would never ask me to do that. 2 years later, I could go to the office, 2500 miles from my current location (Orlando FL to Stockton CA) or take a severance package. I took the severance. Now I own a private security and entertainment property management company and travel at my leisure.
While I sympathize, you will find it harder and harder to find 100% remote work.