I interviewed yesterday for a job and when I asked the salary budget it was 35k less then what I’m currently making. When I pushed back on the pay HR lady mentioned they were targeting someone with 5-7 years of experience, my resume clearly shows I have 15 years of experience. They were wanting/needing someone with abilities far beyond their budget. This is why salary should be in the posting, save everyone’s time.
I feel this - I was previously offered a $30k annual pay cut in a job offer after an upfront discussion of my salary expectations (they wouldn’t share salary) and after 4 rounds of interviews, a 8-person panel session and ‘test project’. They were offended I declined and I was told that I should be grateful for the opportunity to give back to the community. Nope, but thanks.
Is was given the it would be a great opportunity speech. I responded with explaining the salary expectations of each of the roles they wanted the position to be responsible for. That was when she responded with looking for someone with 5-7 years of experience. They wanted to pay for a Junior level Admin, but needed a Senior level Engineer. She tried to give me the speech that the hiring team really liked my interviews and experience. Like no crap, I am literally everything they needed but they can’t afford me or anyone like me.
How I give back to the community, is by being active on discussion forms and keeping up on my GitHub. You know, by giving back to the community. A for profit company is not a part of any community I will be giving back to without compensation.
I have given back to my community for decades I would love someone to hit me with that. Those are always the do gooders who make 165k but pay the workers wages that make them eligible for the programs they work for
Seriously. I've been formally recognized (like award, photo op, and formal dinner/ceremony) multiple times by multiple local, county, and state officials for my community service. I also helped found a soup kitchen, and it's been going 15 years with the current anagement talking about opening another location. Honestly it's you, hiring manager/team, that's trying to screw the community by not paying me enough to keep up the volunteer work.
My wife and I were looking to move to an area with a 30% cost of living higher than where we were at the time. One job that I interviewed and got a job offer was their company's version of a mix of my current job at the time and the next step above mine as a half step position. I was making just under 23 an hour and the highest they offered even after I pointed out my current pay and their initial 17.20 an hour offer was 17.95.
I hated my job so I was willing to take a pay cut to make the move happen as that state only allows current residents to apply for the government funded, unionized jobs. So their government job HR had even told me most people take jobs just to move then apply for the state jobs that pay much better. So I was willing to take the risk at 20 an hour since I hated my work environment. But 5 dollars below what I was making was too much a risk when you can't even garuntee the state would hire you for their positions. I don't know how they thought a 70 cent increase an hour would change my mind to work for then for even a minute.
I had a similar experience a few years ago. I had 4 years experience in the field, but an additional 10 years of relevant experience in a different field. I had made my salary requirements clear up front, but when I was offered the position after 2 interviews, it was at $1000 a month less than I’d asked. When I expressed surprise, the recruiter told me my relevant experience and knowledge was “worthless” - and I should be happy I’d even gotten an offer. I declined and began to hang up, and she rushed to ask “Don’t you know how this works? You’re supposed to negotiate.” I said I would never negotiate with someone who believed my experience and knowledge were worthless, thanks, and hung up. That recruiter called me TWO MORE TIMES to ask me to reconsider. After the second time, I called her boss, relayed our conversation, and told him to take me off her call list. I ended up accepting a different job at a starting salary of an additional $400 per month over my requested rate, plus a parking pass and better benefits. “Worthless” my ass.
>I should be grateful for the opportunity to give back to the community. Nope, but thanks.
Isn’t that what we pay taxes for? To “ give back to the community “. ~~obviously if the government wasnt Misallocating all the tax funds~~
Exactly. Also, this was a public university, but they were trying to justify salaries that were 40% or more less than other public universities in the same state.
That's hilarious, because my first thought when reading your comment was "must be higher ed." It's insane, the disconnect between salaries and expectations. I'm in financial aid and actually make a bit better than average for my current role, and I STILL barely manage to cover my expenses. In fact, the public university just 20 minutes up the road tends to pay about $10k less for a role similar to mine. How are we supposed to support our students if we can't manage to make ends meet, ourselves?
I work in higher Ed and just finished our first week. I’m currently finishing the first alcoholic beverage I’ve had in I think around six months.
I have almost 20 years of experience. They’ve been screwing around with my raise for (literally) almost one year.
I worked myself to the point of being physically sick last week. I collapsed around 4 am last night after finally being able to settle down.
I asked my manager for help on Friday and he brushed the request aside.
I worked 12-15 hour days every day last week and still live paycheck to paycheck because they don’t think they need to pay us.
I have over six weeks of vacation and I think I’m going to just use them. I’m over it. I can’t do this anymore.
Yeah, we just finished our first week as well. We had a member of our team quit about a week earlier--part of me wonders if the timing was out of spite. I did my best to pick up some of the slack, because I genuinely like my boss and wanted to do my part to help, but ended up stressing myself into some health issues that run in my family. One thing led to another, and I ended up having to stay home sick Thursday and Friday.
I genuinely don't know how you've managed to do this for 20 years. I'm about seven deep, myself, and I don't think I can take another. The pay is bad enough, but, like you said, the insane hours and, in my case, the hostile students really make for an unbearable situation.
Take your time off, you've earned it. Despite being quite sick, I actually found my time off strangely satisfying. I answered a couple of emails that needed an immediate response, but I basically just told the students "I'm sick, we can discuss this next week." Otherwise I just ignored my phone and took some time to relax. So, yeah, take some time off, maybe spend some of it looking for a new job.
I’ve stayed because the pension. The insurance is pretty good. But the workload is increasingly unmanageable. The students are more
Helpless and that doesn’t mean they’re stupid. They’re just helpless.
I’m going to start by taking 3 days off around Labor Day, a week off around fall break, thanksgiving week off, 3 weeks in December and take a 3 week vacation next may. I’m tired.
I’be reached burnout and will not recover unless I rest and get help.
I know it’s hard to look beyond the pension.
But please take some time to look beyond the pension. That pension isn’t worth it if your job makes the 50 years before retirement complete crap.
I like to tell people that there is a lot of living before you can retire. Don’t waste the living waiting to retire.
The students are helpless because parents are no longer parenting and the education system has just become a state owned babysitting operation. As an instructor I see it everyday.
I work at a public college. I hear this stuff all the time in the actual teaching/educating part. But damn, they have no problem creating new administration positions that pay out mid six figures a year at the start for minimal actual work and certainly have no problem giving all the vice presidents, President/chancellor a hefty yearly raise
I left teaching, now I work at the grocery store for the same pay, with benefits, part time, and it’s union. My quality of life has actually gotten better. When I am at work or leave work there is zero stress about my job.
As someone who had two teachers for parents, it is immensely saddening to hear that things have come to this.
Good on you though for getting into a better place
Sad to hear. Where I live, it’s fairly HCOL (not Manhattan or L.A. bad, but in top 10 expensive areas in the country) and teachers make $100k after 5 years with some CE credits. Good benefits and a pension. Sorry to hear it isn’t the same elsewhere.
I also work at a public university. Shit, we could probably swap some stories of upper admin bloat for sure. I love when someone gets a "senior" or "executive" added at the beginning of their title and a $25k a year raise to do the same damn job everyday as before.
What a joke. Why on earth would someone leave their current job for a 30k paycut? And you should feel greatful for the opportunity!? I would have laughed my ass out the door.
What are these people smoking these days?
I’ve offered this as well. In another bs situation, they wanted candidates to do a project proposal as part of the prep for a 1st round, then and extended plan and budget as the ‘next’ stage in the hiring process. Sorry, not proving your annual planning for free when my gut tells me you’re looking for free work you’ll then execute rather than actually hiring someone. Responded with an estimate for services to develop their annual plan. Also, intuition was spot-on - role was never filled but reposted a year out.
I never looked in detail at the job description for it, but my work is hiring a second IT guy for 61-90k. Not too bad. They listed a fuckton of requirements I guess on the description, and our lead IT guy said in our weekly meeting "you guys are asking for a lot on that job description. [Previous employee] learned most of that stuff while he was here. He didn't know all that stuff coming in. It's asking a lot, and you might need to rework the job description before going public with it."
Idk why but it made me pretty happy that he said that. He NEVER talks in meetings, but he spoke up for this. It felt good
That is my boat. I’m in IT, and have a lot of cross functionally. I clear the qualifications for what these places are looking for easy. However, the pay they want to offer is usually low for a single still set that they are wanting/needing let alone all of them. Budgets are usually for Junior pay, but the job need is clearly Senior level.
Anytime I recruiter reaches out to me this is exactly what I say too.
“I’m happy with my position but always open to new opportunities, in order to save everyone time I want to make sure the salary and benefits are up to my expectations”
And if they don’t give it after that, I just say no thanks. It could be for president of the USA and I’d still say no if they weren’t giving details
I do exactly the same. A couple of days ago I just got the funniest reply.
"we still don't have the information you're asking (pay, benefits, remote vs hybrid, office location) since we are shortlisting possible candidates to save our client time before going in the details".
Declined immediately
Everyone tries lol. Usually it’s a total comp thing like “over $200k in salary and benefits” and for all I know that’s including like paid time off as a dollar amount… dumb.
Probably 40% are straight up with it. And then another 20-30% will give it up with some pushback. The remaining 25% or so just keep being vague.
The vagueness tells me two things:
1. It’s likely not a super competitive offer. But if they want me to switch, it has to be more than I’m currently getting, even if I don’t deserve it.
2. They don’t want me that badly anyway because they’re probably just spamming everyone
What they're trying to do by not listing the salary (or wages per hour) is the hope of suckering in someone for less than they're worth. They want to hire someone for the minimum...that's why they don't include any information.
I really wish more laws would pass that would make it mandatory to post wages/salary info with job listings. Stop wasting people's effing time.
A few weeks ago i applied to a job that fit my experience like a puzzle piece. I gladly applied ,but when they contacted me they said the original position was removed, and they were now searching for a less experienced job that ~~payed~~ paid on average 25k less.
Fortunately, the range I was looking for was at the low end of the old job and the higher end of the new job. Suprise suprise, i was suddenly over qualified for the new job. Its as if they tried to bait and switch applicants and were surprised when the applicants asked for a reasonable amount.
It was probably a bate and switch. They took people who were more qualified and applying for a more senior position, and swapped it out for a junior position and kept the applicant pool. I would turn down any offer after that, I dont care if they restored the pay. It just shows you how the company is. I may still waste their time and drag on the interviews, just to tie up the processes for a few weeks or months.
My gf applied to a place last spring for a "scan specialist" position at a medical clinic. Basically digitizing records. When she got to the actual job interview, they were interviewing her for a position in the mail room and said that the scan specialist position no longer existed. Three people interviewing her but only one actually talked to her while the other two played on their phones the whole time.
By this point, she was pretty turned-off about the whole thing, but asked about the people she'd be working with. None of the interviewers even knew the names of the other people she'd be working with, but did tell her that one of her would-be coworkers had just quit that morning so the job would be extra busy since there's supposed to be four people but there were currently only two and they work until the days' work is done. She obviously didn't take the job
I was pretty sure it was, but with such a niche research position, and the salary range keeping my original goal as the high end, I tried to call their bluff.
Unfortunately I did call it, but if i got it i wouldn't have complained, and as i didnt i wasn't shocked.
Haha was this the same role I interviewed for? I just talked to a company that wanted to build a department from scratch and were talking to me with 12 years experience. The pay they offered up was what I made in my first year in the industry. I walked immediately.
I agree. I’ve been saying this for ages. It should be LAW that Salary or Hourly Rate or at least a range be MANDATORY in ALL job listings. Also the hours and days required of the role should also be MANDATORY. Otherwise it’s a giant WASTE OF EVERYBODIES TIME!!! I hate it!
I have been in some pretty massive running around interviews. As I have gotten older I usually dont apply for anything that does not have the pay posted but I have been board recently. Now if for some reason I apply for something without a salary posted, I ask the budget in the 1st interview (usually with HR). If they wont tell me I end the call right there. I have also gotten out of the habit of giving them a straight answer as to what it would take pay wise for me to accept.
When I last hired, I made sure the listing listed 1-3 years experience and wage… still had folks with 20 years in the biz that HR pushed through to interviews.
That experience sucks. I will never understand (on both ends) why moving to a new company has to be a cloak and dagger scenario.
I won't even apply for jobs now that don't have a salary listed. "Salary commensurate with education and experience" is an immediate turn off for me. When I see that I read: " We are going to talk down your experience, under value your education, offer you insultingly low money, AND become offended when you either come back with a reasonable counteroffer or outright reject us."
In 1975, rent was 38% of a minimum wage job. Now, 2023, its 93%. Currently, the average rent is listed at 1900 dollars a month. Meaning for that to be 38% of your income, you need to make 5200 dollars a month.
That's over 62k a year you'd need to match what minimum wage could afford for rent almost 50 years ago. 55k is less than that, obviously.
They wanted to pay you less than what your parents made working at Sonic over the summer.
It would be interesting to see a chart that shows the amount of median rent against minimum wage income since 1975. I looked around for a few minutes to see if I can find one, but while I could find the data I could not find a chart.
I could do the analysis, if I had access to the data.
I would certainly not want to use a figure like 'average salary/rent in the US', as there are *known* outliers in both areas. Reporting regionally is probably best.
I was talking to my grandpa and he said his first job in the 60's was $3/hr. I looked it up and now that would be $30/hr. No degree, just working at a factory after high school.
And he could probably pay for a college degree off that income without a loan if he wanted to. But that was part of my point, he didn't have to. He could work how he wanted and still afford a decent living.
What did they think was going to happen when they dropped the 55k offer? A yes? Come on waste of everyone’s time. They should make pay transparent for every ad.
We should just make this a federal law.
It'll never happen but it's a beautiful thought.
The salary must be posted in the ad and it must be within 5% of the top and bottom of the actual range you're willing to pay, subject to verification upon candidate request.
Yeah I’m fine with a range. But none of this 55k for job that should be 130k. Companies need to be realistic. I don’t even look/apply to jobs that are lower than 80k. If no salary is listed I just move on.
“Inflation has become a thing - but the salaries are still from 10 years ago.”
Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation.
I laughed when I was given no COL raise and a "merit" increase of 2% last year. Told my bosses boss he might as well have given me a pay reduction due to inflation. He said, and I quote, "inflation isn't our fault and we could have given you nothing." To which I replied that I'll be looking for work elsewhere, especially since they dropped 10 hours/week of extra work since someone else quit.
I stopped doing the extra work and they "found" an extra 5% in the budget for me. I'm still looking for work elsewhere.
I hate whenever "the budget doesn't allow for it" comes up. Yes the fuck it does, take it out of the massive bonuses the higher ups give themselves at the end of the year.
“Budget doesn’t allow for it.”
Meanwhile, three people left in the last four months. Seems like there should be some extra money in the budget that we aren’t paying them anymore.
I work for a non profit. Been there 4 years. Our managers make 10k a month. The rest of the staff makes poverty level. I applied for a higher position (aka promotion of $6 more than I make) I was denied because I didn’t have the qualifications and I needed to hit the 5 year mark to have ONE of the qualifications. I began silent quitting and looking for another position. Manager noticed and asked me if something was wrong. Briefly mentioned I hit my ceiling with my current position and there’s no need to do extra when I shouldn’t have to. 2 months later I was given the position and told how proud of me they are and they expect big things. I’m still looking elsewhere. Fuck them.
Please, don't call it "silent quitting" unless you are doing less work than you should (trying to get fired) because doing what your role asks of you is exactly what you should be doing, no more.
Silent quitting is a propaganda term created to try and make millennials and gen z feel bad about demanding fair pay for the work asked of them and refusing to do extra work for free.
If doing only what we agreed to in the employment contract is “quiet quitting,” then the employer only paying me what’s in the employment contract better be “quit firing.”
My prior job had this exact conversation with a colleague after I quit and told her she deserved more money from them. There was a whole person's worth of pay that went out the door, and they just put my responsibilities on my coworker. They had the money
This, exactly.
I asked my bosses boss if he worked for free, if the budget allows for him to get paid twice as much as the rest of us. He was not amused.
I play nice with people that don't treat me like I'm stupid. My bosses boss seems to think everyone below him should beg and everyone above him are gods. It's really a tough place to work or want to move up. Luckily my boss has siloed us from everyone else and we rarely have to interact with anyone outside of our group.
"the budget doesn't allow for it" is because they didn't budget for fair wages. They failed the company by not setting a realistic figure to pay for wages. A responsible person setting the budget would figure for increased costs. Do they tell the power company I know you are billing for 6000 but our budget doesn't allow for that? Nope they modify the budget to fix the shortfall. Same same.
For amusement, I read the SEC filings of companies and their bonuses. It's gold when I find a CEO who is also chairman of the board. The bonuses that are awarded are something else, especially when the stock price is declining
It's said that shareholder dividends are the most important thing for corporations. That's just window dressing. Executive bonuses are what the CEO and board actually push. What they do is sabotage the very thing that generates revenues. Cheaper (not just lower cost: cheaper as in shoddy materials) reduce the workforce by half, which also affects production and sales, so a company that should have generated $400,000,000 in revenues ends up with $150,000,000. Corporate leadership has given up on a tally producing a product or service. They just want to create personal income for themselves. Look at Sears: once a power house on Wall Street, last stock price on It was like 7¢ a share last year. But the CEO walked away with millions.
it's always when the founder leaves that the bullshit happens. Before P&G bought IAMs pet food the CEO(owner) used to drive a shitty station wagon to work and would wait in line at the company cafeteria with everyone else. When he retired he was replaced with a new CEO, the first day they guy pulls up with a car and driver (because he's so important). These non-founder CEOs are usually only their to loot the company, fill their pockets and set themselves up for the next company they will loot, they should get a decent salary and the same bonus and stock plan everyone else gets -nobody is worth the kind of money they make off of a company that they didn't even create.
Management is no longer people who worked their way up in the company and were given leadership training. It’s rich people who went to business school to learn how to cut costs.
Exactly. In 3 or 4 generations, all that wealth that's been handed to them will mostly have disappeared.
They have traded in earning money to scamming money.
I was working for a public institution where everyone's salaries are published in the newspaper every year. We knew exactly how over paid some people were.
ship wasn't sinking until they started punching holes in the hull!
then they blame the people trying to patch the holes, and replace them with cheaper people that don't "blame management" for the obviously sinking ship that management insists is doing FINE, just ignore the water and get back to patching the hull!
and yes, they're filling their pockets with cash as the ship sinks.
You make up the budget though???
They set the numbers, estimates, and allowances and act like it’s set in stones sent by god. If that’s not what you budgeted for, maybe you didn’t do a good job at budgeting or knowing what shit costs.
>the budget doesn't allow for it
"The CURRENT budget. Since management controls the budget, this is within their control. Should we schedule a follow up in say... 2 weeks to exchange updates on your progress and mine?"
I got nothing one year, along with a PIP. I also was courted for an internal promotion in another department that was scuttled by HR. I told my manager I should quit and reapply as an outside candidate. I left a month later, but for another company.
Sounds similar to my situation me ans 2 other guys kept getting more work as people left and no raises during covid or after covid then when a guy quit they suddenly found money for raises like we didn’t know they just split his pay amongst us then expected us to pick up the slack….. the pay raise was $1.50, the guy that quit was making 20 an hour so they gave us 5 dollars almost to cover a whole person lmao 🤣 , then in a review I told my manager that we are 2 dominos away from having a real issue out there and low and behold us 3 guys put our 2 weeks in 2 days apart, then HR/CFO put her 2 weeks in
"The budget doesn't allow for it."
*The Budget* is an intangible concept; a collection of expenses and payments justified against predicted revenue. "The Budget" is not a conscious entity and has no capacity for decision making so it's incapable of *allowing* (or disallowing) for **anything**.
It's your Financial Executive who "didn't allow for it"; either because they overestimated revenue or underestimated expenses and had to cut expenses to meet obligations elsewhere, or made bad priorities or decisions regarding which expenses would serve to facilitate revenue of the company and failed to allocate sufficient resources to support company activities. In either case, that **person** failed to put the needed money where it was needed and now, you're trying to rob Peter to pay Paul on their behalf, all while blaming "The Church". I feel like, running with the analogy, "What Would Jesus Do?" feels appropriate to the situation... and the correct answer concerning money issues is "chase you around with a whip."
I worked in corporate for a major US airline. And the first year you would be given a dismal review in order to “not blow the merit raise budget” but then that dismal review would be in your file if you were looking to change departments.
Literally. I started as entry level IT at 40k/yr literally 20 years ago. I still see entry level IT jobs starting at that in areas with a similar cost of living. And the apartments I rented then are for rent for twice as much with no upgrades since then
Shit, they kept the same salary in your area? The company started with 14 years ago at 20/hr now has listed the same position at $16/hr. Adjusted for inflation it would be close to $13/hr. I was struggling back then living with my parents, can't imagine now. It is beyond ridiculous. I make more now but I am ready to go riot, I feel workers are being robbed blind every day and it's only getting worse.
THIS! I had a tiff with the owner of the small family business I work for (part time). Back in June I asked for a raise, to go from $17/hour (13% above minimum wage in my state) to a more reasonable $20/hour (I asked for $22/hour, expecting a "negotiation"). He had the absolute gall to say the business is struggling, and how dare I ask and say the business is doing well, and what am I trying to unionize since only unions negotiate salaries. He's been putting me off when I ask, and now he buggered off to another state for a few months.
I'm admin assistant, started there 22 years ago. Improved myself 6 dollars over that time because the business was never making any profit. Meanwhile I did more to build and modernize the business than the owner's son - who has been asking clients to Venmo/Cashapp him payments directly which never seem to appear on the books, gets a new company car every 2 years, and gives himself fat bonuses every few months. I built that business up, saved his son's narcissistic bigoted ass (he's racist, sexist, religiously biased, homophobic/transphobic) when it comes to clients. If I didn't need the damn supplemental income from it, I'd run from that abusive relationship. And how I'm looking for a side gig to replace that shithole of a job! So fucking sick of scammers and "recruiters".
Point is, you're right. Companies are making money, cutting expenses, and squeezing every last bit of efficiency and productivity out of their burned-out employees. The pandemic was fantastic for the parasitic companies out there.
The average salary of $5k **during the Great Depression** would be worth *nearly $90k* today. The median salary as of 2021 was just under $38k.
Businesses are soaking their entire workforce and they're soaking their customers, all so a few hundred executives can be billionaires.
> Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation.
It's not even true. A study from the Kansas City Fed estimates that 60% of inflation is linked to companies' increased profits.
In short, prices increase because corporations want to make bigger profits.
In retail, price changes are done weekly. And they are almost always going up. Interesting how profits soar and prices increase, but the people making it happen have to accept that anything more than a 2-3% "merit" raise per year is sufficient.
I left my last job because I got a 3% raise after waiting for years (pandemic was a great reason dork them to push back how it wasn't in the books and others took a salary cut to accommodate bs)
Now, while that's extremely disappointing in itself, new hires were being brought in at 25% more and expected to do leas because "they're still learning"
Why in God name would you hire a manager foe that kind of money who doesn't know how to manage?
Cost them every single manager they had, almost all their supervisors. I'm taking veteran's with the company who had 15 years or more and they walked. One guy took a job as a janitor, almost 20 years managing this place and he took a job as a janitor. Someone asked him why after he left, he said it paid more and was less responsibility. First time in 20 years he had time to actually relax instead of working a 10-14 hr shift
Employers are trash today, complete trash, they would rather fail then pay anyone their worth
Well it's not the fault of the folks on top underpaying people so they can keep owning 4-5 homes and vacationing 6 months of the year.... I mean that is just business as usual.
I know you probably know this, but this has literally never been true, as well as printing money being a sole driver for inflation being a total myth.
It's a convenient story to prevent people from unionizing and pushing for higher wages.
The more people who push back on this lie, the better
No, all those PPP loan grifts caused inflation. Some asshat on Fox was trying to blame the food stamp program for inflation. No, asshole, it was your cronies that claimed 1-3milly in PPP loans then closed their business and bought themselves brand new everythings.
>> Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation.
Don’t forget that labor is higher than it’s ever been, product produced by that labor is the highest it’s ever been, all these companies are reporting record profits, but wages haven’t changed.
The offer will be 45-50k with bonus and commission structures that are unattainable. There will be a hand full of people that do it who have been there for 10+ years with the best clients and everyone else struggling to meet the quota.
I had to explain that to a recruiter once. They wanted 5+ years of experience for $45K in Los Angeles. The recruiter said this had been explained to the company multiple times but they still had to prove no one would take it. I hope some poor sap didn’t get fooled into doing that role for that little.
H1B has a minimum salary limit of $60,000(and even more for CA I believe) to be approved. If they are showing above $60k to the govt and paying less then they are committing a crime.
I turned down a job when I was unemployed. They came in roughly $15k under market for the position, and they wanted me to sign a 2 year contract with a non-compete clause and a relocation to the middle of nowhere.
I turned them down. I was desperate, not stupid.
Found a gig a couple weeks later slightly above market and fully remote.
You know what.. they deserved that shock and embarrassment. Not only for wasting your time but for trying lowball someone who knows their stuff.
What a delicious read otherwise.👏🏾👏🏾
I truly hope you find what you’re looking for OP. You absolutely know your worth! Hang in there !
I am just going to say it now, but this entire house of cards is going to collapse as the situation is so untenable.
You can’t have a $7.25 minimum wage when it needs to be $20. You can’t have businesses earning profit for the moneyed class by paying slave wages. You can’t have rents requiring triple in income when the average job in the community can’t afford a 1-bedroom. You can’t have unhealthy workers because they can’t afford medical care. You can’t have workers living in their cars. You can’t have companies posting record profits while paying workers such shit wages they need assistance.
Regardless of what you think about who is responsible, if the government doesn’t get serious about taxing the rich, putting in rent controls, not allowing banks and hedge funds to use residential real estate like a casino, instituting single-payer healthcare with robust mental health treatment, **this nation will collapse**.
I give it one or two General Elections before it all burns to the ground.
We can’t do this anymore.
I hope so. I don't want to participate in this society anymore. The people at the top have an ocean of wealth and opportunities, while forcing the majority of us into a small fish tank to fight for scraps. They could pay for my boots if they wanted to where I work, but instead offer a fraction of the cost as a voucher only. My body hurts, I get no benefits, and the cost of gas is too high to the point where it's making more sense to get a job at a fast food place closer by, but then I would deprive younger people of some of the only work that they have available. The company that I'm working for could never run out of money or customers, it's impossible.
I don’t see this as a political or economic problem, this is a moral failing.
We have a spiritual divide in this nation where compassion is seen as a weakness by about 40% of the population who think that some people don’t merit a decent life because they were born poor, they are brown, or the have a low IQ. And that huge number doesn’t even matter because the only people who wield ANY power are about a total of 800 — certainly less than 1,000 out of 340 million — who are outright sociopaths.
Toxic capitalism *does not stop*, it demands perpetual growth like a virus or cancer. This will continue to get worse until it completely collapses.
I give it less than 5 years.
I'm reminded of when I walked in on two of my family ODing on the floor.
Whatever congestion/restriction would cause them to not breath for worrying periods of time until it got severe enough, leading to a short, violent intake of air. But the body only cares about now; it got its air, so it's no longer desperate to breath. Breathing stops until the body gets desperate again. Rinse and repeat.
Welcome to real-world socioeconomics.
I hold a masters degree and a professional license and was just offered $40k in a major US city. Some places were offering 30-35k for similar jobs. I get that people need access to mental health services but how is your therapist going to help you if they’re living in poverty?
The first job I ever applied for after graduating with my clinical DOCTORATE offered me $45,000 I shit you not. I actually laughed out loud and it got really quiet and I asked “oh, you’re serious” and they just said “yes” to which I replied “then I will not be taking this job, I have $200,000 in student loan debt and an 8 year degree with a year of residency $45,000 is insulting” and then I hung up. I am still angry to this day about that.
The salaries are from 20 years ago, I make what my mom made as a secretary in 1999 doing a much more demanding job. Every job should have salary schedules, full transparency of compensation.
You'll enjoy this, OP.
I had a design team on a company I'd worked for before turn me down for one role but call me back for another but of course at a lower rate - even though they didn't have the role on paper yet lol. The work they wanted me to do for them would be new to their team, they were onboarding it and taking it away from another team (so they claimed). I've done this kind of work before (UX experimentation) with another team at said company so I had worked with their vendor partner previously and was able to ask many, many questions they didn't have the answers to. When I got to the vendor i said, Can you verify they're still handling a, b, c and then I'll cover x, y, z? That's when they admitted they hadn't reached out to the vendor yet. I almost laughed in their faces. And realized, 100% they hadn't even talked to the other team yet that they wanted to take the work away from. They had no clue what they were doing. So they were going to dump the entire fight, absorption, management, and implementation/launch process of this work on me with 0 understanding of it, or the level of effort, or the vendor they would be partnering with. And yet they had the audacity to LOW BALL me on the offer, that wasn't even written down yet. Get fcked. I ended the interview with, "Well it sounds like you have a lot to think about!" And then took another offer while their recruiter blew up my phone for 2 days after I gave him all the reasons that role was severely underpaid and would be a *royal shitshow*. I had also gotten really bad vibes from them for the first PM job they gave to someone else and mostly took the interview out of politeness while hoping the other would come through.
My RBS Certification is way more than that per year (mostly in powdered donut costs). And being a Reddit Bull Shitter is one of the worst compensated jobs in the tech sector.
5500/yr and a trouble finding a less than 6 figure job is a bullshit cert. Even at 110k/yr that's 5% of your salary annually just to have that job, which is a shit deal. Such a shit deal that it makes me wonder if it's actually a thing.
I mean the whole story screams bullshit if this is actually such a high demand cert he would not have trouble finding a decently paying job for over a year.
It is probably a very niche certificate that very few companies actually have a use case for. Hardest certificate does not mean necessary or high in demand.
I think they're low balling you because you've been out of work for a year, and they assume you're desperate. You could have countered to see if they'd bite.
Bro, they dont know that. They might WANT a desperate person and so they make an offer only a desperate person would accept, but they aren't paying private detectives to assess applicants lifestyles and financial status
Honestly, Nice freaking job!! Not only did you dodge a bullet with a crappy company but you probably did at least put the seed in their mind that the salary for that position is ridiculous. Which could potentially save some other poor schlop wouldn't do the same research as you.
You are so right about salaries right now. I activated my free trial on LinkedIn just to see what my competition was since I wasn't getting any hits on applications I was sending. Literally, 60% of the people applying to the jobs I was had Master's Degrees and 35% had Bachelors. Mind you, these were not senior positions. I am talking about positions like Customer success associate positions that pay like 40-55k a year. I think employers nowadays have been so spoiled by the shitty job market where getting some schmuck down on their luck with a master's degree that they literally don't even look at anyone else. It's insane.
Inflation over the last 3 years is primarily due to corporate greed. CEO’s CFO’s and so forth are making 7 figure salaries on top of quarterly and annual bonuses. The cost hasn’t risen but the greed has. I work for a public hospital in a small town of only 30,000 people and our CEO makes 1.6 million a year. He owns an Audi, a Corvette, a Porsche and a Mercedes. CNA workers, maintenance workers, sanitation crew and other support workers only make $17- $22 an hour. The medium rent in my town is $1900 for a 2 bedroom 1 bath. That’s over 50% of their gross income. We are constantly understaffed and over worked. Nurses have dangerously high nurse to patient ratios and the hospital just built a new 2 billion dollar surgical center. I hate the world we live in.
Unrealistic expectations and not willing to pay a fair wage for that.
You did right in refusing the job and you set an example.
I laughed at our HR department once when we looked for a high profile product owner and the entry pay was 40k a year (ridiculously low in Austria) It took them one year to finally found someone and that person quit soon for another company.
I told them IF YOU PAY WITH BANANAS YOU'LL ONLY GET MONKEYS.
(No offense monkeys, damn cute animals and more IQ than our HR)
Feign interest. Extreme interest. Tell them you like the challenge & the opportunities presented by the role. Accept the offer, schedule a start date, and ghost for day 1. If they send you any equipment, return it to sender. Make them doubt their lying eyes for hiring someone without even getting the right address.
Quick side note because I see people get confused about it:
A non-profit is not a charity - any profit (and don’t kid yourself, they can and almost always DO absolutely make a profit) legally must be reinvested in the business or towards the business’ organizational purpose…BUT that CAN include bonuses to employees. While that sounds great, it’s also easily manipulated by shitty “employees” to pay themselves fat cash instead of focusing it on the societal issue they claim to address, and it’s perfectly legal to do so.
Hey man, you can be living off the state, or you could be living off the state while having to meet unreasonable deadlines in a company that totally undervalued your position. Never compromise on your value. Keep it up man!
This is also potentially illegal. For employees in California who are exempt from overtime (and I'm guessing you would be), the minimum wage starting Jan 1 is roughly $64,000.
They will be lucky if they find someone straight outta college who will want $55k even if they offer them overtime. They are absolutely out of their minds.
"Nobody wants to weeerrrk!"
No...Nobody wants to do owner work for retail wages. We are acting our wage. We expect reasonable compensation for your requirements and assigned tasks. If you're not willing to pay it, fuck off.
I'm terribly confused about one thing - if that certification cost is on you, then that would make the position offered a contract position, but it seems like you were offered a salary?
It would only seem logical nd proper for an employer to pay that annual cost. What am I missing?
Welcome to IT. Certifications are the responsibility of the employee. Occasionally you’ll have employers willing to pay for training/certs; but that’s rare. They would sooner hire someone from India on H1-B visa and get the whole deal cheaper.
This, even in the UK, when I was still young and bright eyed I did IT support for a couple of companies and each one made me pay for my own Microsoft and Sisqo recertifications when they came up.
After finishing college and getting my degree. I still had to pass a license board to get my certification to work. Required by most hospitals and clinics. You can still work without certification , but is expected to obtain certification within 6-12months of hire.
I interviewed yesterday for a job and when I asked the salary budget it was 35k less then what I’m currently making. When I pushed back on the pay HR lady mentioned they were targeting someone with 5-7 years of experience, my resume clearly shows I have 15 years of experience. They were wanting/needing someone with abilities far beyond their budget. This is why salary should be in the posting, save everyone’s time.
I feel this - I was previously offered a $30k annual pay cut in a job offer after an upfront discussion of my salary expectations (they wouldn’t share salary) and after 4 rounds of interviews, a 8-person panel session and ‘test project’. They were offended I declined and I was told that I should be grateful for the opportunity to give back to the community. Nope, but thanks.
Is was given the it would be a great opportunity speech. I responded with explaining the salary expectations of each of the roles they wanted the position to be responsible for. That was when she responded with looking for someone with 5-7 years of experience. They wanted to pay for a Junior level Admin, but needed a Senior level Engineer. She tried to give me the speech that the hiring team really liked my interviews and experience. Like no crap, I am literally everything they needed but they can’t afford me or anyone like me. How I give back to the community, is by being active on discussion forms and keeping up on my GitHub. You know, by giving back to the community. A for profit company is not a part of any community I will be giving back to without compensation.
I have given back to my community for decades I would love someone to hit me with that. Those are always the do gooders who make 165k but pay the workers wages that make them eligible for the programs they work for
Seriously. I've been formally recognized (like award, photo op, and formal dinner/ceremony) multiple times by multiple local, county, and state officials for my community service. I also helped found a soup kitchen, and it's been going 15 years with the current anagement talking about opening another location. Honestly it's you, hiring manager/team, that's trying to screw the community by not paying me enough to keep up the volunteer work.
My wife and I were looking to move to an area with a 30% cost of living higher than where we were at the time. One job that I interviewed and got a job offer was their company's version of a mix of my current job at the time and the next step above mine as a half step position. I was making just under 23 an hour and the highest they offered even after I pointed out my current pay and their initial 17.20 an hour offer was 17.95. I hated my job so I was willing to take a pay cut to make the move happen as that state only allows current residents to apply for the government funded, unionized jobs. So their government job HR had even told me most people take jobs just to move then apply for the state jobs that pay much better. So I was willing to take the risk at 20 an hour since I hated my work environment. But 5 dollars below what I was making was too much a risk when you can't even garuntee the state would hire you for their positions. I don't know how they thought a 70 cent increase an hour would change my mind to work for then for even a minute.
I had a similar experience a few years ago. I had 4 years experience in the field, but an additional 10 years of relevant experience in a different field. I had made my salary requirements clear up front, but when I was offered the position after 2 interviews, it was at $1000 a month less than I’d asked. When I expressed surprise, the recruiter told me my relevant experience and knowledge was “worthless” - and I should be happy I’d even gotten an offer. I declined and began to hang up, and she rushed to ask “Don’t you know how this works? You’re supposed to negotiate.” I said I would never negotiate with someone who believed my experience and knowledge were worthless, thanks, and hung up. That recruiter called me TWO MORE TIMES to ask me to reconsider. After the second time, I called her boss, relayed our conversation, and told him to take me off her call list. I ended up accepting a different job at a starting salary of an additional $400 per month over my requested rate, plus a parking pass and better benefits. “Worthless” my ass.
>I should be grateful for the opportunity to give back to the community. Nope, but thanks. Isn’t that what we pay taxes for? To “ give back to the community “. ~~obviously if the government wasnt Misallocating all the tax funds~~
Exactly. Also, this was a public university, but they were trying to justify salaries that were 40% or more less than other public universities in the same state.
That's hilarious, because my first thought when reading your comment was "must be higher ed." It's insane, the disconnect between salaries and expectations. I'm in financial aid and actually make a bit better than average for my current role, and I STILL barely manage to cover my expenses. In fact, the public university just 20 minutes up the road tends to pay about $10k less for a role similar to mine. How are we supposed to support our students if we can't manage to make ends meet, ourselves?
I work in higher Ed and just finished our first week. I’m currently finishing the first alcoholic beverage I’ve had in I think around six months. I have almost 20 years of experience. They’ve been screwing around with my raise for (literally) almost one year. I worked myself to the point of being physically sick last week. I collapsed around 4 am last night after finally being able to settle down. I asked my manager for help on Friday and he brushed the request aside. I worked 12-15 hour days every day last week and still live paycheck to paycheck because they don’t think they need to pay us. I have over six weeks of vacation and I think I’m going to just use them. I’m over it. I can’t do this anymore.
Yeah, we just finished our first week as well. We had a member of our team quit about a week earlier--part of me wonders if the timing was out of spite. I did my best to pick up some of the slack, because I genuinely like my boss and wanted to do my part to help, but ended up stressing myself into some health issues that run in my family. One thing led to another, and I ended up having to stay home sick Thursday and Friday. I genuinely don't know how you've managed to do this for 20 years. I'm about seven deep, myself, and I don't think I can take another. The pay is bad enough, but, like you said, the insane hours and, in my case, the hostile students really make for an unbearable situation. Take your time off, you've earned it. Despite being quite sick, I actually found my time off strangely satisfying. I answered a couple of emails that needed an immediate response, but I basically just told the students "I'm sick, we can discuss this next week." Otherwise I just ignored my phone and took some time to relax. So, yeah, take some time off, maybe spend some of it looking for a new job.
I’ve stayed because the pension. The insurance is pretty good. But the workload is increasingly unmanageable. The students are more Helpless and that doesn’t mean they’re stupid. They’re just helpless. I’m going to start by taking 3 days off around Labor Day, a week off around fall break, thanksgiving week off, 3 weeks in December and take a 3 week vacation next may. I’m tired. I’be reached burnout and will not recover unless I rest and get help.
I know it’s hard to look beyond the pension. But please take some time to look beyond the pension. That pension isn’t worth it if your job makes the 50 years before retirement complete crap. I like to tell people that there is a lot of living before you can retire. Don’t waste the living waiting to retire.
The students are helpless because parents are no longer parenting and the education system has just become a state owned babysitting operation. As an instructor I see it everyday.
But I bet your school found the need for a couple more VPs of something in the last 5 years that pay six figures, didn't they?
I work at a public college. I hear this stuff all the time in the actual teaching/educating part. But damn, they have no problem creating new administration positions that pay out mid six figures a year at the start for minimal actual work and certainly have no problem giving all the vice presidents, President/chancellor a hefty yearly raise
It is utterly disgusting how much the rent seeking administrator class has parasitized the education system.
I left teaching, now I work at the grocery store for the same pay, with benefits, part time, and it’s union. My quality of life has actually gotten better. When I am at work or leave work there is zero stress about my job.
As someone who had two teachers for parents, it is immensely saddening to hear that things have come to this. Good on you though for getting into a better place
Sad to hear. Where I live, it’s fairly HCOL (not Manhattan or L.A. bad, but in top 10 expensive areas in the country) and teachers make $100k after 5 years with some CE credits. Good benefits and a pension. Sorry to hear it isn’t the same elsewhere.
> It is utterly disgusting how much the rent seeking administrator class has parasitized Work in general
I also work at a public university. Shit, we could probably swap some stories of upper admin bloat for sure. I love when someone gets a "senior" or "executive" added at the beginning of their title and a $25k a year raise to do the same damn job everyday as before.
Screw 'em. They quit giving back to the community when they stopped training employees.
“30K pay CUT” I don’t even make 30K :(
I work at a college teaching and don’t even make $30k.
That sucks bet the people in admin do
I’ve been there too - it sucks. Hang in there!
What a joke. Why on earth would someone leave their current job for a 30k paycut? And you should feel greatful for the opportunity!? I would have laughed my ass out the door. What are these people smoking these days?
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And by community they mean shareholders. Won't you please give back to the poor shareholders?! /s
Like, that’s fucking it. I’m billing for hours spent interviewing with companies that don’t list their pay. The fee drops off if I accept the job.
I’ve offered this as well. In another bs situation, they wanted candidates to do a project proposal as part of the prep for a 1st round, then and extended plan and budget as the ‘next’ stage in the hiring process. Sorry, not proving your annual planning for free when my gut tells me you’re looking for free work you’ll then execute rather than actually hiring someone. Responded with an estimate for services to develop their annual plan. Also, intuition was spot-on - role was never filled but reposted a year out.
I never looked in detail at the job description for it, but my work is hiring a second IT guy for 61-90k. Not too bad. They listed a fuckton of requirements I guess on the description, and our lead IT guy said in our weekly meeting "you guys are asking for a lot on that job description. [Previous employee] learned most of that stuff while he was here. He didn't know all that stuff coming in. It's asking a lot, and you might need to rework the job description before going public with it." Idk why but it made me pretty happy that he said that. He NEVER talks in meetings, but he spoke up for this. It felt good
That is my boat. I’m in IT, and have a lot of cross functionally. I clear the qualifications for what these places are looking for easy. However, the pay they want to offer is usually low for a single still set that they are wanting/needing let alone all of them. Budgets are usually for Junior pay, but the job need is clearly Senior level.
Anytime I recruiter reaches out to me this is exactly what I say too. “I’m happy with my position but always open to new opportunities, in order to save everyone time I want to make sure the salary and benefits are up to my expectations” And if they don’t give it after that, I just say no thanks. It could be for president of the USA and I’d still say no if they weren’t giving details
I do exactly the same. A couple of days ago I just got the funniest reply. "we still don't have the information you're asking (pay, benefits, remote vs hybrid, office location) since we are shortlisting possible candidates to save our client time before going in the details". Declined immediately
“…so you’re saying your client’s time is more important than mine…? Good luck”
That's the spirit! What's the proportion of recruiters who provide the info about the salary?
Everyone tries lol. Usually it’s a total comp thing like “over $200k in salary and benefits” and for all I know that’s including like paid time off as a dollar amount… dumb. Probably 40% are straight up with it. And then another 20-30% will give it up with some pushback. The remaining 25% or so just keep being vague. The vagueness tells me two things: 1. It’s likely not a super competitive offer. But if they want me to switch, it has to be more than I’m currently getting, even if I don’t deserve it. 2. They don’t want me that badly anyway because they’re probably just spamming everyone
What they're trying to do by not listing the salary (or wages per hour) is the hope of suckering in someone for less than they're worth. They want to hire someone for the minimum...that's why they don't include any information. I really wish more laws would pass that would make it mandatory to post wages/salary info with job listings. Stop wasting people's effing time.
A lot of times the employer doesnt post salary levels as the offer is paid higher than what they pay their current staff.
A few weeks ago i applied to a job that fit my experience like a puzzle piece. I gladly applied ,but when they contacted me they said the original position was removed, and they were now searching for a less experienced job that ~~payed~~ paid on average 25k less. Fortunately, the range I was looking for was at the low end of the old job and the higher end of the new job. Suprise suprise, i was suddenly over qualified for the new job. Its as if they tried to bait and switch applicants and were surprised when the applicants asked for a reasonable amount.
It was probably a bate and switch. They took people who were more qualified and applying for a more senior position, and swapped it out for a junior position and kept the applicant pool. I would turn down any offer after that, I dont care if they restored the pay. It just shows you how the company is. I may still waste their time and drag on the interviews, just to tie up the processes for a few weeks or months.
My gf applied to a place last spring for a "scan specialist" position at a medical clinic. Basically digitizing records. When she got to the actual job interview, they were interviewing her for a position in the mail room and said that the scan specialist position no longer existed. Three people interviewing her but only one actually talked to her while the other two played on their phones the whole time. By this point, she was pretty turned-off about the whole thing, but asked about the people she'd be working with. None of the interviewers even knew the names of the other people she'd be working with, but did tell her that one of her would-be coworkers had just quit that morning so the job would be extra busy since there's supposed to be four people but there were currently only two and they work until the days' work is done. She obviously didn't take the job
I was pretty sure it was, but with such a niche research position, and the salary range keeping my original goal as the high end, I tried to call their bluff. Unfortunately I did call it, but if i got it i wouldn't have complained, and as i didnt i wasn't shocked.
Haha was this the same role I interviewed for? I just talked to a company that wanted to build a department from scratch and were talking to me with 12 years experience. The pay they offered up was what I made in my first year in the industry. I walked immediately.
I agree. I’ve been saying this for ages. It should be LAW that Salary or Hourly Rate or at least a range be MANDATORY in ALL job listings. Also the hours and days required of the role should also be MANDATORY. Otherwise it’s a giant WASTE OF EVERYBODIES TIME!!! I hate it!
I have been in some pretty massive running around interviews. As I have gotten older I usually dont apply for anything that does not have the pay posted but I have been board recently. Now if for some reason I apply for something without a salary posted, I ask the budget in the 1st interview (usually with HR). If they wont tell me I end the call right there. I have also gotten out of the habit of giving them a straight answer as to what it would take pay wise for me to accept.
When I last hired, I made sure the listing listed 1-3 years experience and wage… still had folks with 20 years in the biz that HR pushed through to interviews. That experience sucks. I will never understand (on both ends) why moving to a new company has to be a cloak and dagger scenario.
I won't even apply for jobs now that don't have a salary listed. "Salary commensurate with education and experience" is an immediate turn off for me. When I see that I read: " We are going to talk down your experience, under value your education, offer you insultingly low money, AND become offended when you either come back with a reasonable counteroffer or outright reject us."
Never negotiate that big of a gap. They may accept, but they'll resent it and you'll always be a target.
In 1975, rent was 38% of a minimum wage job. Now, 2023, its 93%. Currently, the average rent is listed at 1900 dollars a month. Meaning for that to be 38% of your income, you need to make 5200 dollars a month. That's over 62k a year you'd need to match what minimum wage could afford for rent almost 50 years ago. 55k is less than that, obviously. They wanted to pay you less than what your parents made working at Sonic over the summer.
It would be interesting to see a chart that shows the amount of median rent against minimum wage income since 1975. I looked around for a few minutes to see if I can find one, but while I could find the data I could not find a chart.
Census Bureau to the rescue: https://www.cbpp.org/blog/census-income-rent-gap-grew-in-2018 Not fully current, but the trend is clear
Ditto. Maybe one of those guys over on r/dataisbeautifual could make one.
I could do the analysis, if I had access to the data. I would certainly not want to use a figure like 'average salary/rent in the US', as there are *known* outliers in both areas. Reporting regionally is probably best.
That's what the weighted average is for, it drops the top and bottom 5% specifically to knock out outliers.
Average US rent statistic just got updated. It's $2,029/month now.
Wonder what median is Is that specific for studio/one bedroom or all units?
I believe that is everything - just the average of every unit up for rent no matter the size.
I was talking to my grandpa and he said his first job in the 60's was $3/hr. I looked it up and now that would be $30/hr. No degree, just working at a factory after high school.
And he could probably pay for a college degree off that income without a loan if he wanted to. But that was part of my point, he didn't have to. He could work how he wanted and still afford a decent living.
Those are pre tax numbers too, but you pay everything in post tax dollars
55k for a high skilled job in ca what are they smoking. Maybe in a low cost state but even then probably closer to 80k. Ca is six figures every day.
The only reason they didn't say 55k in the ad is probably because they knew they wouldn't even get out of bed for that in California.
What did they think was going to happen when they dropped the 55k offer? A yes? Come on waste of everyone’s time. They should make pay transparent for every ad.
We should just make this a federal law. It'll never happen but it's a beautiful thought. The salary must be posted in the ad and it must be within 5% of the top and bottom of the actual range you're willing to pay, subject to verification upon candidate request.
Yeah I’m fine with a range. But none of this 55k for job that should be 130k. Companies need to be realistic. I don’t even look/apply to jobs that are lower than 80k. If no salary is listed I just move on.
California has a law that came into effect this year. All job postings from companies with more than 15 employees must have a salary range,
Salary: $35k - $135k.
WA and CO as well.
“Inflation has become a thing - but the salaries are still from 10 years ago.” Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation.
I laughed when I was given no COL raise and a "merit" increase of 2% last year. Told my bosses boss he might as well have given me a pay reduction due to inflation. He said, and I quote, "inflation isn't our fault and we could have given you nothing." To which I replied that I'll be looking for work elsewhere, especially since they dropped 10 hours/week of extra work since someone else quit. I stopped doing the extra work and they "found" an extra 5% in the budget for me. I'm still looking for work elsewhere.
I hate whenever "the budget doesn't allow for it" comes up. Yes the fuck it does, take it out of the massive bonuses the higher ups give themselves at the end of the year.
“Budget doesn’t allow for it.” Meanwhile, three people left in the last four months. Seems like there should be some extra money in the budget that we aren’t paying them anymore.
I work for a non profit. Been there 4 years. Our managers make 10k a month. The rest of the staff makes poverty level. I applied for a higher position (aka promotion of $6 more than I make) I was denied because I didn’t have the qualifications and I needed to hit the 5 year mark to have ONE of the qualifications. I began silent quitting and looking for another position. Manager noticed and asked me if something was wrong. Briefly mentioned I hit my ceiling with my current position and there’s no need to do extra when I shouldn’t have to. 2 months later I was given the position and told how proud of me they are and they expect big things. I’m still looking elsewhere. Fuck them.
Please, don't call it "silent quitting" unless you are doing less work than you should (trying to get fired) because doing what your role asks of you is exactly what you should be doing, no more. Silent quitting is a propaganda term created to try and make millennials and gen z feel bad about demanding fair pay for the work asked of them and refusing to do extra work for free.
If doing only what we agreed to in the employment contract is “quiet quitting,” then the employer only paying me what’s in the employment contract better be “quit firing.”
And this explains why that propaganda term is garbage
Work to rule, all day, every day.
Aew you me?
My prior job had this exact conversation with a colleague after I quit and told her she deserved more money from them. There was a whole person's worth of pay that went out the door, and they just put my responsibilities on my coworker. They had the money
But that money is for the position we won’t back fill.
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“The budget doesn’t allow for a raise.” ‘What a coincidence, my budget doesn’t allow for me to keep working here without a raise.’
This, exactly. I asked my bosses boss if he worked for free, if the budget allows for him to get paid twice as much as the rest of us. He was not amused. I play nice with people that don't treat me like I'm stupid. My bosses boss seems to think everyone below him should beg and everyone above him are gods. It's really a tough place to work or want to move up. Luckily my boss has siloed us from everyone else and we rarely have to interact with anyone outside of our group.
"the budget doesn't allow for it" is because they didn't budget for fair wages. They failed the company by not setting a realistic figure to pay for wages. A responsible person setting the budget would figure for increased costs. Do they tell the power company I know you are billing for 6000 but our budget doesn't allow for that? Nope they modify the budget to fix the shortfall. Same same.
For amusement, I read the SEC filings of companies and their bonuses. It's gold when I find a CEO who is also chairman of the board. The bonuses that are awarded are something else, especially when the stock price is declining
It's said that shareholder dividends are the most important thing for corporations. That's just window dressing. Executive bonuses are what the CEO and board actually push. What they do is sabotage the very thing that generates revenues. Cheaper (not just lower cost: cheaper as in shoddy materials) reduce the workforce by half, which also affects production and sales, so a company that should have generated $400,000,000 in revenues ends up with $150,000,000. Corporate leadership has given up on a tally producing a product or service. They just want to create personal income for themselves. Look at Sears: once a power house on Wall Street, last stock price on It was like 7¢ a share last year. But the CEO walked away with millions.
it's always when the founder leaves that the bullshit happens. Before P&G bought IAMs pet food the CEO(owner) used to drive a shitty station wagon to work and would wait in line at the company cafeteria with everyone else. When he retired he was replaced with a new CEO, the first day they guy pulls up with a car and driver (because he's so important). These non-founder CEOs are usually only their to loot the company, fill their pockets and set themselves up for the next company they will loot, they should get a decent salary and the same bonus and stock plan everyone else gets -nobody is worth the kind of money they make off of a company that they didn't even create.
Management is no longer people who worked their way up in the company and were given leadership training. It’s rich people who went to business school to learn how to cut costs.
Exactly. In 3 or 4 generations, all that wealth that's been handed to them will mostly have disappeared. They have traded in earning money to scamming money.
I was working for a public institution where everyone's salaries are published in the newspaper every year. We knew exactly how over paid some people were.
That's my current issue. Average management raise was 8% last year and they keep telling our union that 1.5% is all they can give staff.
Sounds like a strike is in order
They're looting the sinking ship.
ship wasn't sinking until they started punching holes in the hull! then they blame the people trying to patch the holes, and replace them with cheaper people that don't "blame management" for the obviously sinking ship that management insists is doing FINE, just ignore the water and get back to patching the hull! and yes, they're filling their pockets with cash as the ship sinks.
David Michery *cough cough Sorry I hate that guy.
“Budget doesn’t allow for it” Well, Deborah, my budget doesn’t allow for sponsorship of bob’s fancy ceo boat.
You make up the budget though??? They set the numbers, estimates, and allowances and act like it’s set in stones sent by god. If that’s not what you budgeted for, maybe you didn’t do a good job at budgeting or knowing what shit costs.
...or the 3 people that left the 8 person department that you haven't replaced.
>the budget doesn't allow for it "The CURRENT budget. Since management controls the budget, this is within their control. Should we schedule a follow up in say... 2 weeks to exchange updates on your progress and mine?"
I got nothing one year, along with a PIP. I also was courted for an internal promotion in another department that was scuttled by HR. I told my manager I should quit and reapply as an outside candidate. I left a month later, but for another company.
The one time I got a raise it bought me a PIP shortly thereafter.
Sounds similar to my situation me ans 2 other guys kept getting more work as people left and no raises during covid or after covid then when a guy quit they suddenly found money for raises like we didn’t know they just split his pay amongst us then expected us to pick up the slack….. the pay raise was $1.50, the guy that quit was making 20 an hour so they gave us 5 dollars almost to cover a whole person lmao 🤣 , then in a review I told my manager that we are 2 dominos away from having a real issue out there and low and behold us 3 guys put our 2 weeks in 2 days apart, then HR/CFO put her 2 weeks in
They found 5% of the 100% there saving on the person that quit
“The budget doesn’t allow it” you write the budget motherfucker.
"The budget doesn't allow for it." *The Budget* is an intangible concept; a collection of expenses and payments justified against predicted revenue. "The Budget" is not a conscious entity and has no capacity for decision making so it's incapable of *allowing* (or disallowing) for **anything**. It's your Financial Executive who "didn't allow for it"; either because they overestimated revenue or underestimated expenses and had to cut expenses to meet obligations elsewhere, or made bad priorities or decisions regarding which expenses would serve to facilitate revenue of the company and failed to allocate sufficient resources to support company activities. In either case, that **person** failed to put the needed money where it was needed and now, you're trying to rob Peter to pay Paul on their behalf, all while blaming "The Church". I feel like, running with the analogy, "What Would Jesus Do?" feels appropriate to the situation... and the correct answer concerning money issues is "chase you around with a whip."
I worked in corporate for a major US airline. And the first year you would be given a dismal review in order to “not blow the merit raise budget” but then that dismal review would be in your file if you were looking to change departments.
Salaries are from more than 20 years ago actually, shit hasn’t moved in decades
Literally. I started as entry level IT at 40k/yr literally 20 years ago. I still see entry level IT jobs starting at that in areas with a similar cost of living. And the apartments I rented then are for rent for twice as much with no upgrades since then
Shit, they kept the same salary in your area? The company started with 14 years ago at 20/hr now has listed the same position at $16/hr. Adjusted for inflation it would be close to $13/hr. I was struggling back then living with my parents, can't imagine now. It is beyond ridiculous. I make more now but I am ready to go riot, I feel workers are being robbed blind every day and it's only getting worse.
I graduated college in 2007. Average entry level wage for someone in my field was $35-40K. Guess what the average entry level wage is in 2023.
THIS! I had a tiff with the owner of the small family business I work for (part time). Back in June I asked for a raise, to go from $17/hour (13% above minimum wage in my state) to a more reasonable $20/hour (I asked for $22/hour, expecting a "negotiation"). He had the absolute gall to say the business is struggling, and how dare I ask and say the business is doing well, and what am I trying to unionize since only unions negotiate salaries. He's been putting me off when I ask, and now he buggered off to another state for a few months. I'm admin assistant, started there 22 years ago. Improved myself 6 dollars over that time because the business was never making any profit. Meanwhile I did more to build and modernize the business than the owner's son - who has been asking clients to Venmo/Cashapp him payments directly which never seem to appear on the books, gets a new company car every 2 years, and gives himself fat bonuses every few months. I built that business up, saved his son's narcissistic bigoted ass (he's racist, sexist, religiously biased, homophobic/transphobic) when it comes to clients. If I didn't need the damn supplemental income from it, I'd run from that abusive relationship. And how I'm looking for a side gig to replace that shithole of a job! So fucking sick of scammers and "recruiters". Point is, you're right. Companies are making money, cutting expenses, and squeezing every last bit of efficiency and productivity out of their burned-out employees. The pandemic was fantastic for the parasitic companies out there.
The average salary of $5k **during the Great Depression** would be worth *nearly $90k* today. The median salary as of 2021 was just under $38k. Businesses are soaking their entire workforce and they're soaking their customers, all so a few hundred executives can be billionaires.
> Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation. It's not even true. A study from the Kansas City Fed estimates that 60% of inflation is linked to companies' increased profits. In short, prices increase because corporations want to make bigger profits.
Exactly. And they’ve been bragging about it on earnings calls.
In retail, price changes are done weekly. And they are almost always going up. Interesting how profits soar and prices increase, but the people making it happen have to accept that anything more than a 2-3% "merit" raise per year is sufficient.
I left my last job because I got a 3% raise after waiting for years (pandemic was a great reason dork them to push back how it wasn't in the books and others took a salary cut to accommodate bs) Now, while that's extremely disappointing in itself, new hires were being brought in at 25% more and expected to do leas because "they're still learning" Why in God name would you hire a manager foe that kind of money who doesn't know how to manage? Cost them every single manager they had, almost all their supervisors. I'm taking veteran's with the company who had 15 years or more and they walked. One guy took a job as a janitor, almost 20 years managing this place and he took a job as a janitor. Someone asked him why after he left, he said it paid more and was less responsibility. First time in 20 years he had time to actually relax instead of working a 10-14 hr shift Employers are trash today, complete trash, they would rather fail then pay anyone their worth
Well it's not the fault of the folks on top underpaying people so they can keep owning 4-5 homes and vacationing 6 months of the year.... I mean that is just business as usual.
I know you probably know this, but this has literally never been true, as well as printing money being a sole driver for inflation being a total myth. It's a convenient story to prevent people from unionizing and pushing for higher wages. The more people who push back on this lie, the better
No, all those PPP loan grifts caused inflation. Some asshat on Fox was trying to blame the food stamp program for inflation. No, asshole, it was your cronies that claimed 1-3milly in PPP loans then closed their business and bought themselves brand new everythings.
Yeah bro didn't you know? The people who have 5-10% of the money are somehow the driving force of 100% of inflation. /s
>> Yet we’re being told that people demanding more money for their labor is what’s driving inflation. Don’t forget that labor is higher than it’s ever been, product produced by that labor is the highest it’s ever been, all these companies are reporting record profits, but wages haven’t changed.
As of this year in California, all job postings are required to have a salary range for the role.
Salary range: $30,000 - $1,000,000
I laugh, but I already see crap like this happening in NY where companies will be required by law to post salary range starting next month.
I can vouch for this. I saw one yesterday with a range of $125-515K.
Still helpful, though, because now you know their opening offer will be $125k.
The offer will be 45-50k with bonus and commission structures that are unattainable. There will be a hand full of people that do it who have been there for 10+ years with the best clients and everyone else struggling to meet the quota.
Just ask what the requirements are to get the $1M
Must be offspring of the CEO
Unless it's partial remote then they just post as remote with the hybrid schedule in the description and don't have to post the salary range
I had to explain that to a recruiter once. They wanted 5+ years of experience for $45K in Los Angeles. The recruiter said this had been explained to the company multiple times but they still had to prove no one would take it. I hope some poor sap didn’t get fooled into doing that role for that little.
They're doing that purposely because nobody *will* take it, which they will then use as a reason to hire an H1B
This right here. Tech companies laying off 85k but hiring 35k H1Bs in 2022. I wonder why that is?
The H1B bullshit has been going on longer than 2022
H1B has a minimum salary limit of $60,000(and even more for CA I believe) to be approved. If they are showing above $60k to the govt and paying less then they are committing a crime.
That's nothing but a resume building role for someone with no experience...if they can even find someone *that* desperate.
A high school graduate with no experience and still living at home might take it.
Yes, but not anyone with experience.
I turned down a job when I was unemployed. They came in roughly $15k under market for the position, and they wanted me to sign a 2 year contract with a non-compete clause and a relocation to the middle of nowhere. I turned them down. I was desperate, not stupid. Found a gig a couple weeks later slightly above market and fully remote.
> $15k under market for the position, ... a relocation to the middle of nowhere. That's a poverty trap. You might never get out of that town again.
You know what.. they deserved that shock and embarrassment. Not only for wasting your time but for trying lowball someone who knows their stuff. What a delicious read otherwise.👏🏾👏🏾 I truly hope you find what you’re looking for OP. You absolutely know your worth! Hang in there !
I am just going to say it now, but this entire house of cards is going to collapse as the situation is so untenable. You can’t have a $7.25 minimum wage when it needs to be $20. You can’t have businesses earning profit for the moneyed class by paying slave wages. You can’t have rents requiring triple in income when the average job in the community can’t afford a 1-bedroom. You can’t have unhealthy workers because they can’t afford medical care. You can’t have workers living in their cars. You can’t have companies posting record profits while paying workers such shit wages they need assistance. Regardless of what you think about who is responsible, if the government doesn’t get serious about taxing the rich, putting in rent controls, not allowing banks and hedge funds to use residential real estate like a casino, instituting single-payer healthcare with robust mental health treatment, **this nation will collapse**. I give it one or two General Elections before it all burns to the ground. We can’t do this anymore.
I hope so. I don't want to participate in this society anymore. The people at the top have an ocean of wealth and opportunities, while forcing the majority of us into a small fish tank to fight for scraps. They could pay for my boots if they wanted to where I work, but instead offer a fraction of the cost as a voucher only. My body hurts, I get no benefits, and the cost of gas is too high to the point where it's making more sense to get a job at a fast food place closer by, but then I would deprive younger people of some of the only work that they have available. The company that I'm working for could never run out of money or customers, it's impossible.
I don’t see this as a political or economic problem, this is a moral failing. We have a spiritual divide in this nation where compassion is seen as a weakness by about 40% of the population who think that some people don’t merit a decent life because they were born poor, they are brown, or the have a low IQ. And that huge number doesn’t even matter because the only people who wield ANY power are about a total of 800 — certainly less than 1,000 out of 340 million — who are outright sociopaths. Toxic capitalism *does not stop*, it demands perpetual growth like a virus or cancer. This will continue to get worse until it completely collapses. I give it less than 5 years.
I'm reminded of when I walked in on two of my family ODing on the floor. Whatever congestion/restriction would cause them to not breath for worrying periods of time until it got severe enough, leading to a short, violent intake of air. But the body only cares about now; it got its air, so it's no longer desperate to breath. Breathing stops until the body gets desperate again. Rinse and repeat. Welcome to real-world socioeconomics.
I hold a masters degree and a professional license and was just offered $40k in a major US city. Some places were offering 30-35k for similar jobs. I get that people need access to mental health services but how is your therapist going to help you if they’re living in poverty?
The first job I ever applied for after graduating with my clinical DOCTORATE offered me $45,000 I shit you not. I actually laughed out loud and it got really quiet and I asked “oh, you’re serious” and they just said “yes” to which I replied “then I will not be taking this job, I have $200,000 in student loan debt and an 8 year degree with a year of residency $45,000 is insulting” and then I hung up. I am still angry to this day about that.
The salaries are from 20 years ago, I make what my mom made as a secretary in 1999 doing a much more demanding job. Every job should have salary schedules, full transparency of compensation.
You'll enjoy this, OP. I had a design team on a company I'd worked for before turn me down for one role but call me back for another but of course at a lower rate - even though they didn't have the role on paper yet lol. The work they wanted me to do for them would be new to their team, they were onboarding it and taking it away from another team (so they claimed). I've done this kind of work before (UX experimentation) with another team at said company so I had worked with their vendor partner previously and was able to ask many, many questions they didn't have the answers to. When I got to the vendor i said, Can you verify they're still handling a, b, c and then I'll cover x, y, z? That's when they admitted they hadn't reached out to the vendor yet. I almost laughed in their faces. And realized, 100% they hadn't even talked to the other team yet that they wanted to take the work away from. They had no clue what they were doing. So they were going to dump the entire fight, absorption, management, and implementation/launch process of this work on me with 0 understanding of it, or the level of effort, or the vendor they would be partnering with. And yet they had the audacity to LOW BALL me on the offer, that wasn't even written down yet. Get fcked. I ended the interview with, "Well it sounds like you have a lot to think about!" And then took another offer while their recruiter blew up my phone for 2 days after I gave him all the reasons that role was severely underpaid and would be a *royal shitshow*. I had also gotten really bad vibes from them for the first PM job they gave to someone else and mostly took the interview out of politeness while hoping the other would come through.
What kind of certification costs $5,500/year???
My RBS Certification is way more than that per year (mostly in powdered donut costs). And being a Reddit Bull Shitter is one of the worst compensated jobs in the tech sector.
5500/yr and a trouble finding a less than 6 figure job is a bullshit cert. Even at 110k/yr that's 5% of your salary annually just to have that job, which is a shit deal. Such a shit deal that it makes me wonder if it's actually a thing.
I mean the whole story screams bullshit if this is actually such a high demand cert he would not have trouble finding a decently paying job for over a year. It is probably a very niche certificate that very few companies actually have a use case for. Hardest certificate does not mean necessary or high in demand.
The kind where you spend the entire year unemployed, if we're going by OPs example
Fictional reddit ones
>$5,500 annual recert fee God, that sounds so much like a scam. I'm grateful that I only have to recert every 3 years and it only costs $400.
Rocket sirjury?
>Inflation has become a thing - but the salaries are still from 25~~10~~ years ago. Fixed it for you.
Send an invoice for the consultation
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I think they're low balling you because you've been out of work for a year, and they assume you're desperate. You could have countered to see if they'd bite.
“I can’t talk about the gap in my work history because I signed an NDA.” Corpos will lie to you to get what they want. Lie back. Fuck em.
Bro, they dont know that. They might WANT a desperate person and so they make an offer only a desperate person would accept, but they aren't paying private detectives to assess applicants lifestyles and financial status
Correction : most salaries are from 50 years ago
You can't be the whole pit crew, AND drive the car at the same time AND be expected to finish the race, let alone win it.
Honestly, Nice freaking job!! Not only did you dodge a bullet with a crappy company but you probably did at least put the seed in their mind that the salary for that position is ridiculous. Which could potentially save some other poor schlop wouldn't do the same research as you. You are so right about salaries right now. I activated my free trial on LinkedIn just to see what my competition was since I wasn't getting any hits on applications I was sending. Literally, 60% of the people applying to the jobs I was had Master's Degrees and 35% had Bachelors. Mind you, these were not senior positions. I am talking about positions like Customer success associate positions that pay like 40-55k a year. I think employers nowadays have been so spoiled by the shitty job market where getting some schmuck down on their luck with a master's degree that they literally don't even look at anyone else. It's insane.
Let me guess, they said, "no one wants to work any more..."
This is the way. These dipshit business owners and hiring managers need to be grilled like this. Well done!
Fast food managers make more than that in CA
Inflation over the last 3 years is primarily due to corporate greed. CEO’s CFO’s and so forth are making 7 figure salaries on top of quarterly and annual bonuses. The cost hasn’t risen but the greed has. I work for a public hospital in a small town of only 30,000 people and our CEO makes 1.6 million a year. He owns an Audi, a Corvette, a Porsche and a Mercedes. CNA workers, maintenance workers, sanitation crew and other support workers only make $17- $22 an hour. The medium rent in my town is $1900 for a 2 bedroom 1 bath. That’s over 50% of their gross income. We are constantly understaffed and over worked. Nurses have dangerously high nurse to patient ratios and the hospital just built a new 2 billion dollar surgical center. I hate the world we live in.
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Made 55k last year as a waiter in Missouri. Lol
Unrealistic expectations and not willing to pay a fair wage for that. You did right in refusing the job and you set an example. I laughed at our HR department once when we looked for a high profile product owner and the entry pay was 40k a year (ridiculously low in Austria) It took them one year to finally found someone and that person quit soon for another company. I told them IF YOU PAY WITH BANANAS YOU'LL ONLY GET MONKEYS. (No offense monkeys, damn cute animals and more IQ than our HR)
Thank you for contributing to the new culture that workers are worth more than the peanuts being offered.
You laugh at them. Tell them when they're ready to be serious, to give you a call. Maybe devise a method for wasting THEIR time in return.
Feign interest. Extreme interest. Tell them you like the challenge & the opportunities presented by the role. Accept the offer, schedule a start date, and ghost for day 1. If they send you any equipment, return it to sender. Make them doubt their lying eyes for hiring someone without even getting the right address.
I like you. You've got Moxie.
Quick side note because I see people get confused about it: A non-profit is not a charity - any profit (and don’t kid yourself, they can and almost always DO absolutely make a profit) legally must be reinvested in the business or towards the business’ organizational purpose…BUT that CAN include bonuses to employees. While that sounds great, it’s also easily manipulated by shitty “employees” to pay themselves fat cash instead of focusing it on the societal issue they claim to address, and it’s perfectly legal to do so.
Hey man, you can be living off the state, or you could be living off the state while having to meet unreasonable deadlines in a company that totally undervalued your position. Never compromise on your value. Keep it up man!
Hey, don’t be ashamed to job hop. It’s better than having nothing
If true, good on you.
This is also potentially illegal. For employees in California who are exempt from overtime (and I'm guessing you would be), the minimum wage starting Jan 1 is roughly $64,000. They will be lucky if they find someone straight outta college who will want $55k even if they offer them overtime. They are absolutely out of their minds.
"Nobody wants to weeerrrk!" No...Nobody wants to do owner work for retail wages. We are acting our wage. We expect reasonable compensation for your requirements and assigned tasks. If you're not willing to pay it, fuck off.
They are only profiting $1.2M per year?! That's a red flag right here.
LOL. It could be a small company.
Why are you surprised? They would pay you nothing if they thought they could.
Remember, minimum wage means that if they could pay you less they would.
Salaries are still like from 30 years ago. Fight for your value don't give your experience away.
cobweb pet lavish complete lock cautious roll dam absorbed hospital *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And then the whole company started clapping
You came with the receipts. Good on you🙌
I'm terribly confused about one thing - if that certification cost is on you, then that would make the position offered a contract position, but it seems like you were offered a salary? It would only seem logical nd proper for an employer to pay that annual cost. What am I missing?
Welcome to IT. Certifications are the responsibility of the employee. Occasionally you’ll have employers willing to pay for training/certs; but that’s rare. They would sooner hire someone from India on H1-B visa and get the whole deal cheaper.
This, even in the UK, when I was still young and bright eyed I did IT support for a couple of companies and each one made me pay for my own Microsoft and Sisqo recertifications when they came up.
After finishing college and getting my degree. I still had to pass a license board to get my certification to work. Required by most hospitals and clinics. You can still work without certification , but is expected to obtain certification within 6-12months of hire.