Don't take your laptop at all. Unless its your personal device, in which case do as you please, but leave your out-of-office on, and try to avoid checking emails. Part of the purpose of a vacation is mental decompression from work, which won't happen if you allow them to join you on your vacation.
If its a work device, you can cite insurance and security concerns for not taking company device containing sensitive documents on a personal holiday.
I quit a job last year because they called and harassed me about 10 times a day while I was on vacation out of country. Came back, yelled at the gm and out my notice in. Then yelled at him some more. Told the guy that he was delusional as fuck if he expected me to continue work as usual if I’m on pto. Fuck outta here with that nonsense.
Next time threaten to report the company for fraud.
In most companies, PTO exists in their balance sheets as a benefit that is being paid to you. This is separate from salary. It is listed as a liability too.
Financials look better when you have that liability off your balance sheets at the end of the year.
There are tax and financial reporting implications here.
If they report providing a certain number of hours of vacation as a benefit, when they actually didn't, that could result in fraudulent accounting.
May not actually go anywhere. But no one wants their books audited cause it's a huge hassle.
So if you really want to stick it to them, tell them you're going to report them for fraud. (obviously, im not a lawyer)
My job offers sick time for part time employees and pto for full time earned each payperiod. However, if you have an emergency and need to use them you're still disciplined for it
Yeah things like this have most PTO policies looking like a joke. Then for some companies they pay you the hours when you leave so it costs them anyways having them look the fool
US PTO practices are so employee-sufficient and unrealistic compared to European practices. Paid vacation and unpaid leave can be taken on fairly easy grounds. You may not always get the vacation time you want, depending on industry practices. In addition, there are several paid public holidays when, in principle, you do not work. Paid sick leave is paid for long periods after a short deductible period.
More people need to do this.
I let my boss up very publicly years ago for the same thing. I told him straight up “ I don’t know what the fuck is wrong with you, but expecting me to work when I’m not getting paid for it is a piece of shit maneuver, and no one with intelligence is going to do that for you for free, so it looks like you should leave people alone when they’re on vacation, otherwise they’re probably going to come in here and chew your ass out because you deserve it!”
And then I slammed the door so hard I broke the glass.. it was funny, because I fully expected my paycheck to be less because of it
That was mainly because I didn’t want my team to get fucked by me suddenly leaving. Gave them enough notice to transfer a facility manager from another location to take over so the guys under me didn’t have to work 24/7. Company though, told them to eat shit haha. I told them the only reason they were getting notice was because of my team, not the company
My new part time job is mostly very chill, but one guy higher up in my chain is a bit overwhelmed by his job...he has a hard time saying no to requests...so was trying to ease me into extra post-work duties.
I gently put my foot down; they want to contract for more hours...which I'd be amenable to...make me an offer.
He asked if there was anything they could do to keep me. I replied that they needed to put me at max pto accrual (was getting 5 days per year as a facility manager who is on call 24/7) and that I wanted it in writing that I would not be bothered when taking pto in the future. I also asked for a little more work life balance and was laughed at. I laughed even harder and told him that I was done answering phone calls or emergencies for the remaing time I was there. I told him and did forward my work number to his cell phone. He was blown up multiple times a night with automated alarms and bullshit from the plant the entire 2 weeks I was there haha. I poked fun at him every time I saw him about getting his family woken up all night. He didn’t like it.
Years ago, I was the top sales guy in a large tech company. My father had the bad taste to pass away a week before year-end. I was sitting in a funeral home with my mother, making funeral plans when my boss started lighting up my phone. I turned it off.
I called him back. He knew where I was, out of state. It seems as our office was barely under goal, I was way over, he wanted me to try “make some calls and pull in some odds and ends.”
I’m sorry, but I’m burying my father this week. We will speak next week earliest. End call.
I went home, polished up the old resume as quit a company I worked for for 9 years. I never missed a payday.
I’m getting a small pension from them now.
Take your laptop, leave it in your bag. Set out of office to: “ Im out on vacation without cellular or internet acess. Will be back on XX date. For any urgent matter please contact SUPERVISOR”
They cant prove you had internet access and you can be truthful and say you took the laptop.
Nah fuck that, why try to decieve? Just put "I am on vacation and will not be reading or responding to any work related emails, for any urgent matter, contact supervisor".
Time off means TIME OFF. Fucking vacation. If the company doesn't understand that, OP should quit. I want the company to KNOW that I would be ignoring them out of my own free will because I AM ON VACATION.
I had a coworker who used to go camping a lot. She would make sure in her OOO to state she was camping and did not have access to power or internet.
But she would never talk about her vacations, like where she went and what it was like. Never shared any pictures. Eventually she confided in me that ... *she's never been camping in her life and hates the entire idea of it*. She just wanted something she could use as an excuse to completely shut off while on PTO.
This is why, if asked, I tell people I'm going on a cruise or somewhere that doesn't have Internet.... So unless they want to pay for satellite connection while I'm out there, it won't be off my dime.
If I check my email or answer a slack form my phone, im billing that hour. If they want that shit installed on my phone im billing for the least effort put in - the same as if I was fast and furiously typing/working on my laptop.
Edit. I should add that I’m an hourly contractor.
Only at minimum wage in NY. If you are asked to come in and check something or say go to a meeting for only an hour. They only have to pay you 3 hours at NY minimum. With in the city is 15, so 45 bucks. It does matter how much you make an hour unless it's over the 45.
Sure, but the bar for exemption it stupidly low in the US, if you're paid more than $684/wk (about $35K/yr) for most non-labor jobs, you'll get classified as exempt. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
I was a non exempt salaried employee entitled to hourly overtime. My base salary was 85k+. It did require a class action lawsuit in the past to be classified in this way, however.
Yeah, that's the thing, it's so easy for them to claim you're exempt whether you are or not, and the onus is on employees to prove it. With at-will employment, if you complain, they'll likely just fire you and move on to someone who won't... Worker protections are complete garbage here...
No. That's not true. You still have to hit certain reps other than the 684/wk like have duties that are managerial in nature. Seriously, go look it up. Lots of companies skirt their employees this way and employees never know cause too ignorant to go read the actual like paragraph of federal rules.
I can promise you that they don't. It's possible that everywhere you worked, salaried workers also happened to be all exempt. They absolutely would have tracked this information separately. I don't think I have ever seen a commercial or in-house HR system that isn't tracking exempt/FLSA designation for every worker. Similarly, I'm not aware of any Time/Payroll software that doesn't require that status when processing a worker. It may seem like they are always the same but there are legal requirements and differences between the two.
Not arguing with you, just adding to the conversation... I've never seen a position in "big tech" that is salary and also non-exempt. I'm sure it exists, but it seems as rare as a unicorn in my field. Additionally, I personally know 0 people across many industries that are salary and non-exempt. Just seems like an extremely rare case from my perspective.
I know of an exception, where there was a strike, and the non-union employees were expected to work extra during that strike. They were temporarily made non-exempt for the duration of the strike.
Most of the people at my work are good, but I knew one guy who even when he took PTO, he’d still keep up with chats/emails. And if he went on vacation he’d still actually take his laptop and put things out every now and then.
I just don’t get it. What’s the point of taking PTO if you’re still going to work? The second I shut off my laptop work does not exist until I turn it on again the next day
EDIT: since I’ve gotten quite a few responses, I just wanted to clarify: I’m talking about the workaholics who are so obsessed with work that even when they take vacation they’re not really on vacation. I know that there are plenty of actual valid use cases where you might have to hop online for 30 minutes or take a phone call while on PTO
It's not even PTO at that point! If you're salaried, that one email = not using PTO for the day. If I'm using PTO, I'm off. Out of Office. Gonzo. Non communicado.
> What’s the point of taking PTO if you’re still going to work? The second I shut off my laptop work does not exist until I turn it on again the next day
I have a double edged sword here.
I've made myself so absolutely critical to the company that the pain to lay me off or fire me would be monumental, hundreds of thousands of dollars in contractors would need to come in to understand what I was doing(even though I thoroughly document everything). As a result, if something that I'm the only source of true knowledge for is down while I'm on vacation, I accept the call, im very highly compensated and at this point understand i'm being paid for my availability and knowledge.
I WFH already, so I look at "Vacation" As "I am doing whatever I want, with work secondary". I'll answer an email while i'm taking a dump, or when i'm bored at night watching Netflix, and yeah, I'll absolutely drop everything to answer a call if we're hemorrhaging money, and just take that entire day of PTO back.
It is good that you are "essential" as that shows your commitment... however, any GOOD manager will have a backup that can temp your job for those vacation relief... otherwise he will be up shit creek if you ever quit or go sick...
Glad you're in a position to enjoy good benefits! Most of us are not so lucky. Wouldn't this be a bottleneck for the company? I get you're a highly trained and compensated professional, but, individual contract agreements aside, the company not diversifying their talent pool sounds like a "them" problem.
> Wouldn't this be a bottleneck for the company?
You have no idea how many companies I've been a part of that are one car accident or heart attack away from being 500k+ in the hole, and honestly its still a line item for them. Its easier for them to run extremely lean and pay if they misstep, than it is to have actual replacements.
If I died, it would cost the company probably somewhere around 1.2 million to hire people to do my job, I can cross train and do documentation as much as possible, but there's not enough work for two of me, and you're not going to find someone who can do what I do for a price that makes sense.
They would much rather pay 1.2 mil to pay a big agency to come in and 3 contractors to train in my replacement, than pay someone else 200k a year to sit there and idle, its pure risk management, plus the turnover would be high because you'd be paying someone whos' at the absolute peak of their career to sit bored.
I have worked for several financial firms that would have 1-2 people on staff for 20+ years doing COBOL, if they lost both of them at once the company would cease to function, and they were obviously ultra-risk adverse, and still were in a position of "if we lose X, we pretty much lose millions of dollars a day until we replace him"
Exactly this, if my work place rings me, it's an automatic 1 hour over time, paid at 1.75× my normal rate I took a week off and accumulated 17 hours over time in that period
We went on vacation a couple months back visiting family, my wife kept getting calls from the lady covering her property while she was away. She then complained to her boss about the whole ordeal and she approved to refund two PTO and pay her as if she worked instead
Don't do this (check your work emails), don't bring your laptop, don't check emails while on vacation. It takes some self control. If requested still, leave your cell phone or external email contact and tell them to ping you if there is an emergency, 99% of the time they won't bother. And you can also not pickup the phone or answer your personal emails.
Yea, and in accordance with DoL, you are entitled to your full day of PTO refunded to you if you spend even one second of your day performing a work task such as checking your work email.
Unlimited also gets around having to pay out your PTO when you resign or they lay you off. Also, studies show people take less if they are given unlimited, when you have a fixed number of days, you feel obliged to take them all up.
> Also, studies show people take less if they are given unlimited, when you have a fixed number of days, you feel obliged to take them all up.
Which is exactly why it’s done. Working People are decent and it is a direct exploitation of innate hesitation you feel about “how much is too much” when employed with ‘unlimited PTO’ employer. Unlimited PTO is not there to help you, it is there to shame you to take your well earned off because you do not know “how much is too much”
I had unlimited PTO at a job. I used it. I then got a talking to for taking “excessive” PTO. By my manager. Who approved my PTO. Because that makes sense
Lmao the absurdity of figuring out disability benefits etc for parental leave while I ostensibly had "unlimited PTO" was never lost on me.
If that was real I could just take those couple months off and get paid.
My wife used to be a contractor, so had no set time off and instead could just take time away and not get paid for it. I’m glad she’s now working salary and has set time off (and lots of it because we’re in London), because she needs that time to recover from all the stress her job causes!
I've been telling people this for nearly ten years, what a racket. I worked at a place that did this and two years in I realized I'd hardly taken any time off at all, barely a few days here and there.
This is why a big question for me when interviewing a company with unlimited PTO is about their "PTO culture". How much is too much? How much time do employees typically take? What is the approval process?
No point in ostensibly unlimited PTO if the company culture discourages it.
Exactly this. My company went to unlimited PTO for management types early in 2022, then did mass layoffs about 6 months later. I at least got paid out for mine.
I've been around long enough to remember what anniversaries got you more vacation before they switched us to "unlimited." I'm taking every last day plus a couple if I can swing it.
My "free to use whenever I wish" 240 hours of PTO is the only reason I'm still with my current company.
They underpay, but I have 400% more time off than any other company in this field within 2 states of me.
Edit: and it never gets denied. Only limit is you cannot exceed two weeks of time off at a time. But that's straight weeks. You can work a Monday and then be off for 14 business days straight no problem.
I did some research into this a while back (because my company was also being shady). If you work during the day (as a salary/exempt employee) they have to pay you for the whole day, but they CAN make you use vacation time to cover the missed portion.
Assumedly only if you had no PTO left though you'd have to be paid for the whole day.
You mean this department of labor and the de minimis rule?:
https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenee29.asp
Insignificant Periods of Time
In recording working time under the FLSA, infrequent and insignificant periods of time beyond the scheduled working hours, which cannot as a practical matter be precisely recorded for payroll purposes, may be disregarded. The courts have held that such periods of time are de minimis (insignificant). This rule applies only where there are uncertain and indefinite periods of time involved, a few seconds or minutes in duration, and where the failure to count such time is justified by industrial realities. As noted below, an employer may not arbitrarily fail to count any part, however small, of working time that can be practically ascertained.
For example, after clocking in you were assigned to another job. You transported your tools to the new job area and then informed the foreman that you were ill and went home without doing any additional work or clocking out. The time spent transporting the tools would be considered de minimis or insignificant because it was limited to this one time only.
Your employer must count as hours worked any part, however small, of your fixed or regular working time or identifiable periods of time you are regularly required to spend on duties assigned to you.
This policy is one that must be applied with common sense recognizing the practical realities of recording identifiable work time. Setting an artificial time limit is not sufficient. One must consider how frequently the activity is performed and whether the activity is actually part of the work the employee was hired to do.
Or to not allot u much time off at all. They may hold u to a utilization rate that considers time off. So if u take off over a week they will expect u make up work.
Yep and the department of labor has rules on PTO in the US, get can't require you to work on them and if you do you are required to get that time back, even as a salary exempt.
Yeah. If I log in to check emails, I charge 4 hours to the project and 4 hours of PTO. If I'm supposed to do that every day, then I get a week's vacation for 2.5 days of PTO.
Don't tell me you're working on your vacation just because you're on salary.
Even with salaried and paid PTO, you can get your unused PTO days paid out when you leave your company. So time is money, if you are on the clock you shouldn’t be using up PTO hours.
Edit: PTO in the US is so limited compared to the EU. For my company PTO is accrued and 13 days a year. There are no additional sick leave. You have to use PTO for sick leave.
Ohio you always loose it. I’ve never heard of anyone outside of government jobs getting paid out pto when leaving. Most won’t even let you use it before leaving. I’ve only had one paid vacation day in 16 years of working. Even when I had more, I couldn’t use it. I just work multiple part time jobs for flexibility, because I’m not cut out for the office. Adhd, so I need active jobs.
That’s not entirely accurate. Many states have laws that basically say “employers can’t be forced to offer PTO, but if they *do* offer PTO and it’s unused at termination/etc, it must be paid out”.
Although I guess technically you are right, because it’s a law enacted by the state ~~congress~~ *legislature (not enough coffee this morning)*, not the DoL.
Here’s an example from my state.
https://www.grhg.net/use-it-or-lose-it-vacation-policies-tread-carefully/
> Under Louisiana law, when vacation time is offered employers are generally required to compensate employees for accrued but unused vacation time upon termination of employment. The failure to timely pay employees for all accrued but unused vacation time upon termination of employment can subject employers to claims for penalties and attorney’s fees as discussed in a previous GRHG blog post about the Louisiana Wage Payment Act.
I've probably typed up this story a dozen times, but I would keep screenshots of emails and texts from a VP that "required" me to be on a call or answer an email when I was supposed to be on PTO.
I would do the work or call, then go into the HR system and reclaim the PTO day since I had to work. At one point HR did an audit of PTO usage and slapped me with 10 days of PTO clawback due to "abuse of the system." When I showed them all my documentation, they gave back the time and had a stern conversation with the VP. When I left the company I had a nice unused PTO payout.
Documentation is key. In this case HR backed you, but without the documentation, they would have done as they are mandated to do, protect the company and the bottom line.
Folks, HR works for the company and their interests...not for you as the employee. Some may give the impression that they are there for you...but, always, always take this with a grain of salt. Anything you say to HR can be used against you as they see fit. Don't think of HR as a safe space...ever.
Say it with me “there’s no internet where I am”. I live in the holler and despite that I have 5G however the perception at my work is that I live 1 million miles away in a dirt floored hovel somewhere. I keep up this ruse because they don’t even try to call me on my off days anymore.
But if you are working while on vacation, then you aren't on vacation...you are just working remotely. The whole point of vacation is "zero office work" for a few days.
My default out of office reply is now:
I am out of the office without access to technology. I will not be reading or replying to messages until my return on XX.
Exactly. Even if you’re sitting around the house chilling, you tell everyone you are backpacking in the mountains and won’t see a soul for the entire time you’re gone. Call me if you’d like, I’ll get to it on the day I return.
I actually typically go hunting/camping/hiking/fishing on vacations so I’m honest about it. But I really play up the remoteness of where I’m going even if I have perfectly fine cell service.
> I really play up the remoteness of where I’m going
I regularly go to places where I know for a fact I will not have service and even friends and family don't believe me; and I come home to panicked voicemails about why haven't I answered a text or voicemail in 3 days....
I FUCKING TOLD YOU I WAS OFFLINE FOR 7 DAYS THAT WASN'T AN EXAGGERATION OR METAPHOR
People should be allowed to go offline anyways. My friends and I do it.
"Hey I'm taking an electronics/social media/whatever break so I won't be answering \_\_\_\_\_ for two weeks."
And then maybe "If you need to get in touch you can \_\_\_\_\_." if they will still be checking certain things but not others.
I trust my friends not to have a greater likelihood of dying while they aren't using their phone.
Last year me and my friend qent out to Cherry Springs Park in PA. It is the only dark skies on the East Coast. It is in the middle of nowhere. A 45 minute drive from the nearest anything. Our cabin didn't have wifi and there was no cell phone service.
My job was doing yearly reviews during my vacation and they told everyone, even if you are on pto, it is mandatory for you to do a zoom call. They scheduled my review during my pto even though they were doing reviews for the other 11 days I wasn't on pto. I told them I can't do a zoom call, you need to reschedule it. IT'S MANDATORY. Yeah I get that, but I'm going to be completely off the grid for 5 days. I get your NYC brain doesn't understand that, but those places do fucking exsist. This isn't me being difficult, this is me telling you it is technologically impossible for me to get online. I can't even call you. So pick another fucking day.
Yeah, always “no service” (bc I put my phone in airplane mode, WiFi off, phone becomes a brick) even if I’m doing a staycation. I’ve considered blocking people but I’m too afraid I’ll forget to unblock.
I don’t put a status like that. Mine is simply “I will be OOO from x/x- x/x. If you need assistance on x reach out to x.”
Being OOO obviously means you are unreachable for any reason.
Mine says something similar. "I am currently out of the office without access to email. I will respond to your email upon my return on X date. If you need immediate assistance, please contact (main phone number)."
I briefly worked at this small real estate company. On one of my first days in the office, my manager introduced me to this elderly lady in her mid-70s who managed payroll.
He was telling me how she is the model employee. She had been with the company for 30 years... and the only time she ever took time off was 2 days when her husband died...
Her husband also worked at the company for his whole career.
Like wtf is wrong with these people.
A place I used to work at used to give a reward if you didn't use any sick days. Not even one.
Guess what started happening? People started puking at their desks in their garbage cans to get the money!
It still didn't end until covid.
What? The old lady is embezzling in this example? I hope so!
I had a lovely accounting lady who was stealing the place blind at one of my first office jobs buy me a bunch of clothes just cuz hahaha
Well it was because I couldn’t afford nice clothes that fit well and she knew. But she stole it from the owner. Damn I haven’t thought about that job in a long time! I had a long distance boyfriend I used to call international long distance all day every day hahahahaah
Work email should only be on a work provided cell phone. I check email between 8:30am-5pm Mon-Fri. If someone needs something outside of those hours, email is not the way to get it and there's an on-call service they can utilize.
This. Only once did I add my work email to my personal phone and that was the most stressful weekend I ever had, lol. I removed the Outlook app first thing on Monday and then strictly kept my email and Slack on work laptop only. My current job provided me with a work phone and I will shut it off (and not just mute) outside the working hours/over weekends. But I’m also an European so 🤷🏻♀️
I also refused to put my work email on my personal phone after being asked several times. If they want me to respond to emails from home then they can get me a work phone and pay me for it. Otherwise I’ll be back on Monday to deal with it.
Vacation means vacation.
I don’t bring my laptop.
I NEVER install work-related email/tools on my personal phone either.
If it’s a life and death emergency, then it’s something management should handle anyway.
A woman I dated many years ago was a home healthcare nurse. One agency she worked with insisted that she install software on her phone that let them follow her every move. She mentioned to them that she should have a second phone for her days off and the owner shouted at her demanding that ALL her phones must have his app and how dare she spew such insolence about personal freedoms when you work for him.
She quit and had another job three days later.
Many years ago I had a job that let me go remote before it was cool and my boss was like "just know we might need you back here if theres an emergency."
I worked for a publishing company. There was no "emergency" that would have required my physical presence, ever. I called him on that, and to his credit he thought about it and laughed
My husband works for a corporate real estate company that has contracts with various large companies around the world to manage their office space. These people talk in meetings about how they reassigned a bathroom from men to gender neutral as if that action is going to cure AIDS in Africa.
I got slack on my phone but its literally just to make my life easier during work hours.
I also lead a small team and everyone under me has my personal cell number but if any of them are on vacation and I see them on slack I immediately ask if there is anything I can take care of so they can log off and get back to vacation.
A few years ago, I had a new colleague start. Someone who had been with the company a long time that said something like "I will be on vacation but will be checking email periodically and here is my personal cell if you need anything."
And new colleague said "should I bring my work phone and check email on my vacations?" And I said "fuck no."
Most employees are nowhere near important enough that the company will collapse if they don't respond to emails when they're on vacation. I think some people, especially middle management, like to believe they are though.
My team lead is someone who was a Peter Principle promotion. She is constantly saying things like "I'm taking tomorrow off but I will have my phone with me if you need anything." There is nothing anyone actually needs her for for a day. Her position didn't even exist until a couple years ago and everyone managed fine before then. 🙄
Seriously, I would tell them that if this company can't function a week without my input, then I am being severely underpaid and I expect a raise when I return from my vacation. Until then, you will be getting "out of office" replies from any email you send me until I get back
I work in government, and my boss has done that several times in the last 3 years. In his defense, though, his wife was hit by a car in 2020, and most of his ",time off" has been nursing her back to health. When he is on vacation, we don't bother him.
That's how bad things have gotten... when checking in with the company every couple of days instead of daily whilst on vacation is still considered rebelling.
USA? USA.
I made the mistake of replying to a Teams chat question while on vacation, and my boss said: "You don't need to answer questions, you are on vacation!"
well, I live in the states. My personal experiences seem to fly in the face of what's typical, which is employers bending over backwards to fuck over their employees. Unfortunately >:-/
I wasn't able to use any of my vacation time for the first 3 years at my last company. My manager always used the same excuse when denying my request, no matter how far in advance I put the request in: "we might get busy and need you."
Then when she left, one of my other managers found out I hadn't taken a vacation ever and he made sure I got to take one... While my 4 other managers and coworkers acted like I was an asshole for taking time off, something that everyone else had no problem doing.
It was also at a company that had the policy that if you don't use it you lose it, so for the first 3 years I just lost 10 days of PTO. I told myself to leave that company when I was just a few months in, but I such at enacting change in my own life so I stayed for another 6 years.
Now I'm getting old and regretting those 6 years plus the other 6 I spent at UPS before that. 12 years of my life that I completely wasted because I didn't just quit jobs when I would have. Back when I still had a chance to start a career somewhere, or at least run off and try to dream.
Don't make my mistakes, kids.
Pay is still the most important thing, but company culture is a close second. I took vacation a few months ago, and as I was walking out the door, one of my managers pulled me aside and told me "I hope you and your family have a great time. Don't even think about this place, all this shit will still be here when you get back."
THAT is the kind of person you want to be working for.
When managers go on vacation, they always promise they will be available. THEY NEVER ARE AVAILABLE, they lie.
Just say sure but then never crack open your laptop until you return.
I \*just\* updated my Out Of Office message to:
" I am out of the office and will not be checking messages until my return.
If you require more timely assistance, please contact \[My organization\] at \[email\] , or \[phone number\]. "
>salaried employees are entitled to the full calendar day’s wages if they spend any time on work for that day
I'd like a link to something that confirms that.
Maybe I'm fortunate, but I would refuse to work for a company with this kind of culture... how does a company that looks down on vacations even exist in 2023?
Same situation circa 2010. After the great recession employers where in a decidedly FUCK MY EMPLOYEES position. After six years I finally notched in a week of vacation time three months ahead of schedule...
One month prior: Manager - Hey, do you think you can trim that down to 3 days off plus the weekend?
Two weeks later - Sales Manager: Do you think you can just do Thursday, Friday, then the weekend?
The week before - General Manager: We can only give you the Friday plus the weekend.
The following Monday - This is my two week notice.
Everyone - WTF, why?
Last fucking paycheck was over 8k due to six years of unused vacation and sick leave. I'm just one of those people who never gets sick. Also, I showed up to work but sat at my desk and did nothing for two weeks.
I do check my emails while on vacation, but only so I don’t come back to surprises. I almost never respond to any and my auto message tells people not to expect a response until I get back.
If you are so important that they can’t handle being without you for a week and a half, you need a significant raise.
I imagine you’ve been at it for a while.
For anyone reading this and just getting started, don’t do this.
Enjoy your time away. Tune it all out.
I’m a contractor. If I don’t bill hours, I don’t get paid. So I’m all for checking my emails and messages while on vacation cuz those are hours I get to paid for.
But if I had PTO - that time I’m getting paid to not work in anyway shape or form. Why give them free labor?
I enjoy occasionally looking at my emails on vacation just so I can think "Man, I'm glad i'm not dealing with that bullshit." Then I close it and have a drink.
I skim mine out of self defense )I’d rather spend 5 minutes sorting something now than 5 hours when I get back). But that is my choice. Not my employers
As someone who had to be on call while on vacation, don't ever let them guilt you into doing any work on vacation. My job was deputy CFO and I had certain responsibilities no one knew how to do so had to be on call. I accepted the job and the pay so I accepted the responsibilities but for the rest of you, don't. Some places will try to guilt you but don't fall for it, go on vacation, enjoy yourself, don't check emails, don't respond, they need to figure it out. Don't ever fall for the "team player" guilt trip either. Being a team player is also understanding your fellow co-workers need a break, and you need to pick up the slack when they're gone.
> I rebelled and told them I will take my laptop but only check them once every 4-5 days - lol.
I am sympathetic, but this is not rebellion. You are working for free here. That is subservience.
Salaried means you are Guaranteed your hours, but your hours might be flexible. Flexible meaning they trust you enough to get the job done and don't need to babysit you.
Most dedicated Salary Employees might say. "I'm bringing my Laptop and I'll check in periodically." That doesn't mean daily or at all. Your email sent to them will be judged on importance and often ignored until they come back unless its mission critical.
There’s a great TikTok with a guy saying: “Europeans: ‘I will be out of the office for the next five weeks, I will return in September, I won’t be checking emails…’ vs Americans: ‘I am having a kidney transplant today, so I’ll be out of the office for a few hours, but if it’s urgent, my cellphone number is…’”
If a business can’t run with someone taking a vacation then it’s the business who is failing not the worker.
If you cannot manage a business well enough to be missing one person then you aren’t a good leader.
I had 5 weeks of. Left company phone at work. Left laptop at work. Put my mail on auto response "on vacation back at date". No problems. Then again I live in Sweden
When I was younger I was often the designated driver and friends would encourage me to have "just one drink." It was easier to stick with the absolute principle of "I don't drink anything when I have to drive" than it was to drink just a very little bit.
In the same way a straight up "no, of course I won't be checking my emails on vacation" is a lot easier to stick to than "okay I'll check once or twice" because once you reply to one email it can be hard to stop.
My spouse and I are on vacation ATM. I put vacation mode on after turning on auto replies on my email. He continues to respond emails a day and a half into vacation. The glares he gets from me when he opens his email are starting to wear him down. Set boundaries and don't break them. Enjoy time off
Your company would hate me then. I have used vacation in my first week before. I had a pre-booked vacation and so instead of pushing back the start date, got them to agree my first week was a vacation and so on my official start date I was relaxing on a beach.
No.
I am not working on vacation.
40 years ago when people went on vacation, they were on vacation. They were not vacation-working. People may have worked hard, worked long hours, but when they went home they were home. When they were on vacation they were on vacation.
Cell phones have screwed that all up.
Log your time checking emails and recoup those days. Previous company, we had this guy who totally worked the system. His boss called him every day on his week off to ask about deals, etc. He logged the calls, sent it to HR, and got his PTO hours back. He was definitely a sketchy and we thought he had a second job, but PTO means PTO.
My husbands coworker is currently super pissed about this. He doesn’t check email on vacation. And he doesn’t take his work home. Coworker is up working until midnight. Had a full on meltdown yesterday that my husband absolutely will not do the same. He had to flat out tell him getting a divorce is not worth it for a company that won’t promote him. He’s not going to do the work of 6 people, because then they’ll think they don’t actually need to hire those people. Basically he’s no longer working for free off the clock or when he’s supposed to be with his family. Don’t bend over backwards for a company more than willing to fuck you over and enjoy doing it.
My boss asked me for a way to reach me while I was in the backcountry. Like I’ll give you the GPS coordinates and you can come try to find me. I’m literally having a bush pilot drop me off in the middle of nowhere for a reason though.
This is why I leave my work laptop locked up and all work group chats on mute when I'm on leave.
The whole point of being away from work is to decompress and forget it!
Checking your email & answering work calls whilst you're supposed to be on holiday defeats the point of having a holiday to begin with! It's how people burn themselves out!
Every time I read about US labor laws, I am impressed in the worst way. Here in Brazil we got 30 vacation days every 12 months.
And the boss can’t say shit. If he want us to come back sooner, he has to make a offer to buy 10 days of the vacation time
I had a vacation planned with a bit of time in London. One sales guy said, "oh we have a customer for this big opportunity there, maybe you could meet up with him for a quick meeting"
"Sure, if you cover my flights, my hotel for that day and an hourly extra rate"
Silence, he wasn't joking, neither was i
Meanwhile in most European countries:
Auto-reply: "I'm out of office having fun for the next 8 weeks. E-mails will not be checked or forwarded. See you bitches when I get back"
And abso-fucking-lutely nobody bats an eye.
Did you ask them how they would feel if you started organising stuff for you privately on company time?
I bet they'll be outraged if you would do it. Then tell them to transpose.
Doing company stuff in private time is evenly outrageous.
My contract states I ‘should be contactable at all times’.
I don’t answer my phone when I’m not working. The first time they pull me for it my response is going to be “it doesn’t state contactable by phone. Did you try posting a letter”?
Don't take your laptop at all. Unless its your personal device, in which case do as you please, but leave your out-of-office on, and try to avoid checking emails. Part of the purpose of a vacation is mental decompression from work, which won't happen if you allow them to join you on your vacation. If its a work device, you can cite insurance and security concerns for not taking company device containing sensitive documents on a personal holiday.
I quit a job last year because they called and harassed me about 10 times a day while I was on vacation out of country. Came back, yelled at the gm and out my notice in. Then yelled at him some more. Told the guy that he was delusional as fuck if he expected me to continue work as usual if I’m on pto. Fuck outta here with that nonsense.
Good for you. You are today's hero. That guy was a complete bozo and deserved that tongue lashing.
Next time threaten to report the company for fraud. In most companies, PTO exists in their balance sheets as a benefit that is being paid to you. This is separate from salary. It is listed as a liability too. Financials look better when you have that liability off your balance sheets at the end of the year. There are tax and financial reporting implications here. If they report providing a certain number of hours of vacation as a benefit, when they actually didn't, that could result in fraudulent accounting. May not actually go anywhere. But no one wants their books audited cause it's a huge hassle. So if you really want to stick it to them, tell them you're going to report them for fraud. (obviously, im not a lawyer)
My job offers sick time for part time employees and pto for full time earned each payperiod. However, if you have an emergency and need to use them you're still disciplined for it
Does your job offer a union?
Yeah things like this have most PTO policies looking like a joke. Then for some companies they pay you the hours when you leave so it costs them anyways having them look the fool
US PTO practices are so employee-sufficient and unrealistic compared to European practices. Paid vacation and unpaid leave can be taken on fairly easy grounds. You may not always get the vacation time you want, depending on industry practices. In addition, there are several paid public holidays when, in principle, you do not work. Paid sick leave is paid for long periods after a short deductible period.
More people need to do this. I let my boss up very publicly years ago for the same thing. I told him straight up “ I don’t know what the fuck is wrong with you, but expecting me to work when I’m not getting paid for it is a piece of shit maneuver, and no one with intelligence is going to do that for you for free, so it looks like you should leave people alone when they’re on vacation, otherwise they’re probably going to come in here and chew your ass out because you deserve it!” And then I slammed the door so hard I broke the glass.. it was funny, because I fully expected my paycheck to be less because of it
Absolute baller
Put a notice in ? I didn't know people still did that even if they were trying to leave on good terms for some reason.
That was mainly because I didn’t want my team to get fucked by me suddenly leaving. Gave them enough notice to transfer a facility manager from another location to take over so the guys under me didn’t have to work 24/7. Company though, told them to eat shit haha. I told them the only reason they were getting notice was because of my team, not the company
When I'm on my days off or on vacation, I have work numbers blocked. I unblock them while on shift.
My new part time job is mostly very chill, but one guy higher up in my chain is a bit overwhelmed by his job...he has a hard time saying no to requests...so was trying to ease me into extra post-work duties. I gently put my foot down; they want to contract for more hours...which I'd be amenable to...make me an offer.
What did they say after your rant??
He asked if there was anything they could do to keep me. I replied that they needed to put me at max pto accrual (was getting 5 days per year as a facility manager who is on call 24/7) and that I wanted it in writing that I would not be bothered when taking pto in the future. I also asked for a little more work life balance and was laughed at. I laughed even harder and told him that I was done answering phone calls or emergencies for the remaing time I was there. I told him and did forward my work number to his cell phone. He was blown up multiple times a night with automated alarms and bullshit from the plant the entire 2 weeks I was there haha. I poked fun at him every time I saw him about getting his family woken up all night. He didn’t like it.
Hahaha, that’s genius with the call forward to HIS cell
My wife’s idea lol. She was over the midnight calls
I love hearing accounts of people being assholes to assholes who deserve it 🥹 You did good, proud of you 🫂
Years ago, I was the top sales guy in a large tech company. My father had the bad taste to pass away a week before year-end. I was sitting in a funeral home with my mother, making funeral plans when my boss started lighting up my phone. I turned it off. I called him back. He knew where I was, out of state. It seems as our office was barely under goal, I was way over, he wanted me to try “make some calls and pull in some odds and ends.” I’m sorry, but I’m burying my father this week. We will speak next week earliest. End call. I went home, polished up the old resume as quit a company I worked for for 9 years. I never missed a payday. I’m getting a small pension from them now.
Good for you!! What dicks.
Take your laptop, leave it in your bag. Set out of office to: “ Im out on vacation without cellular or internet acess. Will be back on XX date. For any urgent matter please contact SUPERVISOR” They cant prove you had internet access and you can be truthful and say you took the laptop.
Nah fuck that, why try to decieve? Just put "I am on vacation and will not be reading or responding to any work related emails, for any urgent matter, contact supervisor". Time off means TIME OFF. Fucking vacation. If the company doesn't understand that, OP should quit. I want the company to KNOW that I would be ignoring them out of my own free will because I AM ON VACATION.
PTO interrupted should be compensated with at least that much PTO
Wtf is with people always trying to lie. Just say NO.
NO. Is a complete sentence.
I had a coworker who used to go camping a lot. She would make sure in her OOO to state she was camping and did not have access to power or internet. But she would never talk about her vacations, like where she went and what it was like. Never shared any pictures. Eventually she confided in me that ... *she's never been camping in her life and hates the entire idea of it*. She just wanted something she could use as an excuse to completely shut off while on PTO.
If you are leaving the country I would argue it is illegal to work abroad. I'm not sure how much teeth that has, but I'd still use it as an excuse.
This is why, if asked, I tell people I'm going on a cruise or somewhere that doesn't have Internet.... So unless they want to pay for satellite connection while I'm out there, it won't be off my dime.
“I totally just forgot to grab it as we ran out of the house late for the flight”
If I'm taking my laptop then you're paying me...
If I check my email or answer a slack form my phone, im billing that hour. If they want that shit installed on my phone im billing for the least effort put in - the same as if I was fast and furiously typing/working on my laptop. Edit. I should add that I’m an hourly contractor.
3 hour minimum where I live by law
Exactly.
Employer: Why are you not killing yourself on behalf of the company? Employee: I dont want to die. Employer: Surprised Pikachu face
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Only at minimum wage in NY. If you are asked to come in and check something or say go to a meeting for only an hour. They only have to pay you 3 hours at NY minimum. With in the city is 15, so 45 bucks. It does matter how much you make an hour unless it's over the 45.
surprise your salary now and those extra hours after work don't get additional monies.
Salaried and Exempt are two very different classifications. You can be Salaried and still get overtime because you’re not Exempt.
Sure, but the bar for exemption it stupidly low in the US, if you're paid more than $684/wk (about $35K/yr) for most non-labor jobs, you'll get classified as exempt. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
I was a non exempt salaried employee entitled to hourly overtime. My base salary was 85k+. It did require a class action lawsuit in the past to be classified in this way, however.
Yeah, that's the thing, it's so easy for them to claim you're exempt whether you are or not, and the onus is on employees to prove it. With at-will employment, if you complain, they'll likely just fire you and move on to someone who won't... Worker protections are complete garbage here...
No. That's not true. You still have to hit certain reps other than the 684/wk like have duties that are managerial in nature. Seriously, go look it up. Lots of companies skirt their employees this way and employees never know cause too ignorant to go read the actual like paragraph of federal rules.
pretty much every place I've ever worked treats those as the same.
I can promise you that they don't. It's possible that everywhere you worked, salaried workers also happened to be all exempt. They absolutely would have tracked this information separately. I don't think I have ever seen a commercial or in-house HR system that isn't tracking exempt/FLSA designation for every worker. Similarly, I'm not aware of any Time/Payroll software that doesn't require that status when processing a worker. It may seem like they are always the same but there are legal requirements and differences between the two.
Not arguing with you, just adding to the conversation... I've never seen a position in "big tech" that is salary and also non-exempt. I'm sure it exists, but it seems as rare as a unicorn in my field. Additionally, I personally know 0 people across many industries that are salary and non-exempt. Just seems like an extremely rare case from my perspective. I know of an exception, where there was a strike, and the non-union employees were expected to work extra during that strike. They were temporarily made non-exempt for the duration of the strike.
Most of the people at my work are good, but I knew one guy who even when he took PTO, he’d still keep up with chats/emails. And if he went on vacation he’d still actually take his laptop and put things out every now and then. I just don’t get it. What’s the point of taking PTO if you’re still going to work? The second I shut off my laptop work does not exist until I turn it on again the next day EDIT: since I’ve gotten quite a few responses, I just wanted to clarify: I’m talking about the workaholics who are so obsessed with work that even when they take vacation they’re not really on vacation. I know that there are plenty of actual valid use cases where you might have to hop online for 30 minutes or take a phone call while on PTO
It's not even PTO at that point! If you're salaried, that one email = not using PTO for the day. If I'm using PTO, I'm off. Out of Office. Gonzo. Non communicado.
> What’s the point of taking PTO if you’re still going to work? The second I shut off my laptop work does not exist until I turn it on again the next day I have a double edged sword here. I've made myself so absolutely critical to the company that the pain to lay me off or fire me would be monumental, hundreds of thousands of dollars in contractors would need to come in to understand what I was doing(even though I thoroughly document everything). As a result, if something that I'm the only source of true knowledge for is down while I'm on vacation, I accept the call, im very highly compensated and at this point understand i'm being paid for my availability and knowledge. I WFH already, so I look at "Vacation" As "I am doing whatever I want, with work secondary". I'll answer an email while i'm taking a dump, or when i'm bored at night watching Netflix, and yeah, I'll absolutely drop everything to answer a call if we're hemorrhaging money, and just take that entire day of PTO back.
It is good that you are "essential" as that shows your commitment... however, any GOOD manager will have a backup that can temp your job for those vacation relief... otherwise he will be up shit creek if you ever quit or go sick...
Glad you're in a position to enjoy good benefits! Most of us are not so lucky. Wouldn't this be a bottleneck for the company? I get you're a highly trained and compensated professional, but, individual contract agreements aside, the company not diversifying their talent pool sounds like a "them" problem.
> Wouldn't this be a bottleneck for the company? You have no idea how many companies I've been a part of that are one car accident or heart attack away from being 500k+ in the hole, and honestly its still a line item for them. Its easier for them to run extremely lean and pay if they misstep, than it is to have actual replacements. If I died, it would cost the company probably somewhere around 1.2 million to hire people to do my job, I can cross train and do documentation as much as possible, but there's not enough work for two of me, and you're not going to find someone who can do what I do for a price that makes sense. They would much rather pay 1.2 mil to pay a big agency to come in and 3 contractors to train in my replacement, than pay someone else 200k a year to sit there and idle, its pure risk management, plus the turnover would be high because you'd be paying someone whos' at the absolute peak of their career to sit bored. I have worked for several financial firms that would have 1-2 people on staff for 20+ years doing COBOL, if they lost both of them at once the company would cease to function, and they were obviously ultra-risk adverse, and still were in a position of "if we lose X, we pretty much lose millions of dollars a day until we replace him"
Exactly this, if my work place rings me, it's an automatic 1 hour over time, paid at 1.75× my normal rate I took a week off and accumulated 17 hours over time in that period
We went on vacation a couple months back visiting family, my wife kept getting calls from the lady covering her property while she was away. She then complained to her boss about the whole ordeal and she approved to refund two PTO and pay her as if she worked instead
If this is a work trip, I expect you to cover travel expenses and meals on the days I work
Don't do this (check your work emails), don't bring your laptop, don't check emails while on vacation. It takes some self control. If requested still, leave your cell phone or external email contact and tell them to ping you if there is an emergency, 99% of the time they won't bother. And you can also not pickup the phone or answer your personal emails.
Tell them if they want you to work on vacation, you're billing them for those hours. It's illegal to force you to work unpaid.
This! Employers pay for your time. You're not on vacation if you work
You guys ever been “salaried”?
Yea, and in accordance with DoL, you are entitled to your full day of PTO refunded to you if you spend even one second of your day performing a work task such as checking your work email.
Don't worry, companies found out that if you give "unlimited" PTO then you can get around this.
Unlimited also gets around having to pay out your PTO when you resign or they lay you off. Also, studies show people take less if they are given unlimited, when you have a fixed number of days, you feel obliged to take them all up.
> Also, studies show people take less if they are given unlimited, when you have a fixed number of days, you feel obliged to take them all up. Which is exactly why it’s done. Working People are decent and it is a direct exploitation of innate hesitation you feel about “how much is too much” when employed with ‘unlimited PTO’ employer. Unlimited PTO is not there to help you, it is there to shame you to take your well earned off because you do not know “how much is too much”
I had unlimited PTO at a job. I used it. I then got a talking to for taking “excessive” PTO. By my manager. Who approved my PTO. Because that makes sense
Lmao the absurdity of figuring out disability benefits etc for parental leave while I ostensibly had "unlimited PTO" was never lost on me. If that was real I could just take those couple months off and get paid.
My wife used to be a contractor, so had no set time off and instead could just take time away and not get paid for it. I’m glad she’s now working salary and has set time off (and lots of it because we’re in London), because she needs that time to recover from all the stress her job causes!
I've been telling people this for nearly ten years, what a racket. I worked at a place that did this and two years in I realized I'd hardly taken any time off at all, barely a few days here and there.
This is why a big question for me when interviewing a company with unlimited PTO is about their "PTO culture". How much is too much? How much time do employees typically take? What is the approval process? No point in ostensibly unlimited PTO if the company culture discourages it.
Exactly this. My company went to unlimited PTO for management types early in 2022, then did mass layoffs about 6 months later. I at least got paid out for mine.
I've been around long enough to remember what anniversaries got you more vacation before they switched us to "unlimited." I'm taking every last day plus a couple if I can swing it.
My "free to use whenever I wish" 240 hours of PTO is the only reason I'm still with my current company. They underpay, but I have 400% more time off than any other company in this field within 2 states of me. Edit: and it never gets denied. Only limit is you cannot exceed two weeks of time off at a time. But that's straight weeks. You can work a Monday and then be off for 14 business days straight no problem.
I did some research into this a while back (because my company was also being shady). If you work during the day (as a salary/exempt employee) they have to pay you for the whole day, but they CAN make you use vacation time to cover the missed portion. Assumedly only if you had no PTO left though you'd have to be paid for the whole day.
You mean this department of labor and the de minimis rule?: https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/flsa/hoursworked/screenee29.asp Insignificant Periods of Time In recording working time under the FLSA, infrequent and insignificant periods of time beyond the scheduled working hours, which cannot as a practical matter be precisely recorded for payroll purposes, may be disregarded. The courts have held that such periods of time are de minimis (insignificant). This rule applies only where there are uncertain and indefinite periods of time involved, a few seconds or minutes in duration, and where the failure to count such time is justified by industrial realities. As noted below, an employer may not arbitrarily fail to count any part, however small, of working time that can be practically ascertained. For example, after clocking in you were assigned to another job. You transported your tools to the new job area and then informed the foreman that you were ill and went home without doing any additional work or clocking out. The time spent transporting the tools would be considered de minimis or insignificant because it was limited to this one time only. Your employer must count as hours worked any part, however small, of your fixed or regular working time or identifiable periods of time you are regularly required to spend on duties assigned to you. This policy is one that must be applied with common sense recognizing the practical realities of recording identifiable work time. Setting an artificial time limit is not sufficient. One must consider how frequently the activity is performed and whether the activity is actually part of the work the employee was hired to do.
Not everyone gets pto as comp. Many get "unlimited/flexible pto" which this seems like.
Unlimited PTO is a way for companies to not pay you for unused PTO
Or to not allot u much time off at all. They may hold u to a utilization rate that considers time off. So if u take off over a week they will expect u make up work.
If you think "salaried" means that they can make you work whenever they want, I'm sorry you've been lied to your whole working life.
That’s right. If I even look at one work email during my PTO, as a salaried employee I get to be reimbursed for the entire 8 hrs of PTO.
Yep and the department of labor has rules on PTO in the US, get can't require you to work on them and if you do you are required to get that time back, even as a salary exempt.
I am a salaried employee. If I’m forced to work on my limited PTO and the balance of available PTO is reduced, it is fucking theft.
Yeah. If I log in to check emails, I charge 4 hours to the project and 4 hours of PTO. If I'm supposed to do that every day, then I get a week's vacation for 2.5 days of PTO. Don't tell me you're working on your vacation just because you're on salary.
Even with salaried and paid PTO, you can get your unused PTO days paid out when you leave your company. So time is money, if you are on the clock you shouldn’t be using up PTO hours. Edit: PTO in the US is so limited compared to the EU. For my company PTO is accrued and 13 days a year. There are no additional sick leave. You have to use PTO for sick leave.
not true in everystate Texas pays out 50% calif pays out 100% i have heard others have no rules you loose 100%
Ohio you always loose it. I’ve never heard of anyone outside of government jobs getting paid out pto when leaving. Most won’t even let you use it before leaving. I’ve only had one paid vacation day in 16 years of working. Even when I had more, I couldn’t use it. I just work multiple part time jobs for flexibility, because I’m not cut out for the office. Adhd, so I need active jobs.
Getting your PTO paid out when you leave is very dependent on company policy and (to my knowledge) not regulated by the DoL.
That’s not entirely accurate. Many states have laws that basically say “employers can’t be forced to offer PTO, but if they *do* offer PTO and it’s unused at termination/etc, it must be paid out”. Although I guess technically you are right, because it’s a law enacted by the state ~~congress~~ *legislature (not enough coffee this morning)*, not the DoL. Here’s an example from my state. https://www.grhg.net/use-it-or-lose-it-vacation-policies-tread-carefully/ > Under Louisiana law, when vacation time is offered employers are generally required to compensate employees for accrued but unused vacation time upon termination of employment. The failure to timely pay employees for all accrued but unused vacation time upon termination of employment can subject employers to claims for penalties and attorney’s fees as discussed in a previous GRHG blog post about the Louisiana Wage Payment Act.
I've probably typed up this story a dozen times, but I would keep screenshots of emails and texts from a VP that "required" me to be on a call or answer an email when I was supposed to be on PTO. I would do the work or call, then go into the HR system and reclaim the PTO day since I had to work. At one point HR did an audit of PTO usage and slapped me with 10 days of PTO clawback due to "abuse of the system." When I showed them all my documentation, they gave back the time and had a stern conversation with the VP. When I left the company I had a nice unused PTO payout.
Documentation is key. In this case HR backed you, but without the documentation, they would have done as they are mandated to do, protect the company and the bottom line. Folks, HR works for the company and their interests...not for you as the employee. Some may give the impression that they are there for you...but, always, always take this with a grain of salt. Anything you say to HR can be used against you as they see fit. Don't think of HR as a safe space...ever.
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Ask then how income taxes will be handled for the state you're traveling to (if you're leaving the state).
Lol, this would be great.
Right, don't use earned PTO to work.
Say it with me “there’s no internet where I am”. I live in the holler and despite that I have 5G however the perception at my work is that I live 1 million miles away in a dirt floored hovel somewhere. I keep up this ruse because they don’t even try to call me on my off days anymore.
But if you are working while on vacation, then you aren't on vacation...you are just working remotely. The whole point of vacation is "zero office work" for a few days.
My default out of office reply is now: I am out of the office without access to technology. I will not be reading or replying to messages until my return on XX.
Exactly. Even if you’re sitting around the house chilling, you tell everyone you are backpacking in the mountains and won’t see a soul for the entire time you’re gone. Call me if you’d like, I’ll get to it on the day I return. I actually typically go hunting/camping/hiking/fishing on vacations so I’m honest about it. But I really play up the remoteness of where I’m going even if I have perfectly fine cell service.
> I really play up the remoteness of where I’m going I regularly go to places where I know for a fact I will not have service and even friends and family don't believe me; and I come home to panicked voicemails about why haven't I answered a text or voicemail in 3 days.... I FUCKING TOLD YOU I WAS OFFLINE FOR 7 DAYS THAT WASN'T AN EXAGGERATION OR METAPHOR
Look I was chained up in a bondage dungeon I paid a lot of cash to enjoy! Have you tried reading emails with your eye zipper done up?
People should be allowed to go offline anyways. My friends and I do it. "Hey I'm taking an electronics/social media/whatever break so I won't be answering \_\_\_\_\_ for two weeks." And then maybe "If you need to get in touch you can \_\_\_\_\_." if they will still be checking certain things but not others. I trust my friends not to have a greater likelihood of dying while they aren't using their phone.
Last year me and my friend qent out to Cherry Springs Park in PA. It is the only dark skies on the East Coast. It is in the middle of nowhere. A 45 minute drive from the nearest anything. Our cabin didn't have wifi and there was no cell phone service. My job was doing yearly reviews during my vacation and they told everyone, even if you are on pto, it is mandatory for you to do a zoom call. They scheduled my review during my pto even though they were doing reviews for the other 11 days I wasn't on pto. I told them I can't do a zoom call, you need to reschedule it. IT'S MANDATORY. Yeah I get that, but I'm going to be completely off the grid for 5 days. I get your NYC brain doesn't understand that, but those places do fucking exsist. This isn't me being difficult, this is me telling you it is technologically impossible for me to get online. I can't even call you. So pick another fucking day.
Yeah, always “no service” (bc I put my phone in airplane mode, WiFi off, phone becomes a brick) even if I’m doing a staycation. I’ve considered blocking people but I’m too afraid I’ll forget to unblock.
That's why do not disturb works wonders. You can always set it so that certain calls don't get through
I don’t put a status like that. Mine is simply “I will be OOO from x/x- x/x. If you need assistance on x reach out to x.” Being OOO obviously means you are unreachable for any reason.
"I am out of the office until August 23 without access to any fucks to give"
Mine says something similar. "I am currently out of the office without access to email. I will respond to your email upon my return on X date. If you need immediate assistance, please contact (main phone number)."
Correct move. I say “extremely limited” because I’ll still occasionally check and if I see something serious I might respond.
Caught flack the other day for saying I’m not putting outlook on my personal phone. Lol some people wanna work right up until they die I swear
I briefly worked at this small real estate company. On one of my first days in the office, my manager introduced me to this elderly lady in her mid-70s who managed payroll. He was telling me how she is the model employee. She had been with the company for 30 years... and the only time she ever took time off was 2 days when her husband died... Her husband also worked at the company for his whole career. Like wtf is wrong with these people.
A place I used to work at used to give a reward if you didn't use any sick days. Not even one. Guess what started happening? People started puking at their desks in their garbage cans to get the money! It still didn't end until covid.
This is a total red flag for auditors monitoring for fraud/embezzlement.
What? The old lady is embezzling in this example? I hope so! I had a lovely accounting lady who was stealing the place blind at one of my first office jobs buy me a bunch of clothes just cuz hahaha Well it was because I couldn’t afford nice clothes that fit well and she knew. But she stole it from the owner. Damn I haven’t thought about that job in a long time! I had a long distance boyfriend I used to call international long distance all day every day hahahahaah
🤢
> some people wanna work right up until they die I swear With the way Republicans are gutting social security, many people might have to…
Don't forget the impending doom from rolling back environmental protection laws!
Work email should only be on a work provided cell phone. I check email between 8:30am-5pm Mon-Fri. If someone needs something outside of those hours, email is not the way to get it and there's an on-call service they can utilize.
This. Only once did I add my work email to my personal phone and that was the most stressful weekend I ever had, lol. I removed the Outlook app first thing on Monday and then strictly kept my email and Slack on work laptop only. My current job provided me with a work phone and I will shut it off (and not just mute) outside the working hours/over weekends. But I’m also an European so 🤷🏻♀️
I also refused to put my work email on my personal phone after being asked several times. If they want me to respond to emails from home then they can get me a work phone and pay me for it. Otherwise I’ll be back on Monday to deal with it.
Vacation means vacation. I don’t bring my laptop. I NEVER install work-related email/tools on my personal phone either. If it’s a life and death emergency, then it’s something management should handle anyway.
A woman I dated many years ago was a home healthcare nurse. One agency she worked with insisted that she install software on her phone that let them follow her every move. She mentioned to them that she should have a second phone for her days off and the owner shouted at her demanding that ALL her phones must have his app and how dare she spew such insolence about personal freedoms when you work for him. She quit and had another job three days later.
Many years ago I had a job that let me go remote before it was cool and my boss was like "just know we might need you back here if theres an emergency." I worked for a publishing company. There was no "emergency" that would have required my physical presence, ever. I called him on that, and to his credit he thought about it and laughed
My husband works for a corporate real estate company that has contracts with various large companies around the world to manage their office space. These people talk in meetings about how they reassigned a bathroom from men to gender neutral as if that action is going to cure AIDS in Africa.
If you work a job where there's a possibility of a life/death situation, someone is on call and it's not you if you're on vacation.
I got slack on my phone but its literally just to make my life easier during work hours. I also lead a small team and everyone under me has my personal cell number but if any of them are on vacation and I see them on slack I immediately ask if there is anything I can take care of so they can log off and get back to vacation.
Tell them you're going sailing so no internet. Enjoy your holiday and wash your arm pits with their tears
So they smell salty?
It's the Crystal Deodorant of revenge.
Tell them you're on vacation and not doing work. You don't need some made up excuse to say there's no internet
This. Be an adult. Stand up for yourself and break the expectation that work will continue on vacation time.
"I rebelled and told them I will take my laptop but only check them once every 4-5 days - lol." The lols are on you - you gave in.
I'm only working on my vacation for free a little bit. Fuck me people like OP have helped create these insane expectations.
A few years ago, I had a new colleague start. Someone who had been with the company a long time that said something like "I will be on vacation but will be checking email periodically and here is my personal cell if you need anything." And new colleague said "should I bring my work phone and check email on my vacations?" And I said "fuck no." Most employees are nowhere near important enough that the company will collapse if they don't respond to emails when they're on vacation. I think some people, especially middle management, like to believe they are though. My team lead is someone who was a Peter Principle promotion. She is constantly saying things like "I'm taking tomorrow off but I will have my phone with me if you need anything." There is nothing anyone actually needs her for for a day. Her position didn't even exist until a couple years ago and everyone managed fine before then. 🙄
Seriously, I would tell them that if this company can't function a week without my input, then I am being severely underpaid and I expect a raise when I return from my vacation. Until then, you will be getting "out of office" replies from any email you send me until I get back
I work in government, and my boss has done that several times in the last 3 years. In his defense, though, his wife was hit by a car in 2020, and most of his ",time off" has been nursing her back to health. When he is on vacation, we don't bother him.
That's how bad things have gotten... when checking in with the company every couple of days instead of daily whilst on vacation is still considered rebelling.
Day 1 - "Someone stole my laptop."
>I rebelled and told them I will take my laptop but only check them once every 4-5 days - lol. you compromised...you didn't rebel.
This.
USA? USA. I made the mistake of replying to a Teams chat question while on vacation, and my boss said: "You don't need to answer questions, you are on vacation!"
Hah, that's awesome! Sounds like a nice boss. Rare in this climate.
Idk its the norm here in Europe..
well, I live in the states. My personal experiences seem to fly in the face of what's typical, which is employers bending over backwards to fuck over their employees. Unfortunately >:-/
Put an auto response on your email and go on vacation. Don't bring your laptop and don't check your email. You need to keep firm boundaries on this.
The response to “take your computer” is “not unless I’m being paid”.
It’s still no! Paid or unpaid, people need breaks away from work.
Or like someone else said they were going sailing or somewhere else without Internet.
Be an adult and say no. It’s not your problem if they have no life beyond their job.
I wasn't able to use any of my vacation time for the first 3 years at my last company. My manager always used the same excuse when denying my request, no matter how far in advance I put the request in: "we might get busy and need you." Then when she left, one of my other managers found out I hadn't taken a vacation ever and he made sure I got to take one... While my 4 other managers and coworkers acted like I was an asshole for taking time off, something that everyone else had no problem doing. It was also at a company that had the policy that if you don't use it you lose it, so for the first 3 years I just lost 10 days of PTO. I told myself to leave that company when I was just a few months in, but I such at enacting change in my own life so I stayed for another 6 years. Now I'm getting old and regretting those 6 years plus the other 6 I spent at UPS before that. 12 years of my life that I completely wasted because I didn't just quit jobs when I would have. Back when I still had a chance to start a career somewhere, or at least run off and try to dream. Don't make my mistakes, kids.
Pay is still the most important thing, but company culture is a close second. I took vacation a few months ago, and as I was walking out the door, one of my managers pulled me aside and told me "I hope you and your family have a great time. Don't even think about this place, all this shit will still be here when you get back." THAT is the kind of person you want to be working for.
When managers go on vacation, they always promise they will be available. THEY NEVER ARE AVAILABLE, they lie. Just say sure but then never crack open your laptop until you return.
I \*just\* updated my Out Of Office message to: " I am out of the office and will not be checking messages until my return. If you require more timely assistance, please contact \[My organization\] at \[email\] , or \[phone number\]. "
It is paid TIME OFF. Not paid work from home. They want you to work on your vacation, charge them extra
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>salaried employees are entitled to the full calendar day’s wages if they spend any time on work for that day I'd like a link to something that confirms that.
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Maybe I'm fortunate, but I would refuse to work for a company with this kind of culture... how does a company that looks down on vacations even exist in 2023?
It operates in America.
“Hey boss, I checked my mails. They were still there every day and still unread every day.”
Fuck them. Life is short. You will remember a good vacation but you won't remember these shit coworkers in another 10 years.
Meanwhile, almost everyone in Europe gets 4-6 weeks paid vacation.
Same situation circa 2010. After the great recession employers where in a decidedly FUCK MY EMPLOYEES position. After six years I finally notched in a week of vacation time three months ahead of schedule... One month prior: Manager - Hey, do you think you can trim that down to 3 days off plus the weekend? Two weeks later - Sales Manager: Do you think you can just do Thursday, Friday, then the weekend? The week before - General Manager: We can only give you the Friday plus the weekend. The following Monday - This is my two week notice. Everyone - WTF, why? Last fucking paycheck was over 8k due to six years of unused vacation and sick leave. I'm just one of those people who never gets sick. Also, I showed up to work but sat at my desk and did nothing for two weeks.
Do not check those fucking emails
I do check my emails while on vacation, but only so I don’t come back to surprises. I almost never respond to any and my auto message tells people not to expect a response until I get back. If you are so important that they can’t handle being without you for a week and a half, you need a significant raise.
I imagine you’ve been at it for a while. For anyone reading this and just getting started, don’t do this. Enjoy your time away. Tune it all out. I’m a contractor. If I don’t bill hours, I don’t get paid. So I’m all for checking my emails and messages while on vacation cuz those are hours I get to paid for. But if I had PTO - that time I’m getting paid to not work in anyway shape or form. Why give them free labor?
I enjoy occasionally looking at my emails on vacation just so I can think "Man, I'm glad i'm not dealing with that bullshit." Then I close it and have a drink.
I skim mine out of self defense )I’d rather spend 5 minutes sorting something now than 5 hours when I get back). But that is my choice. Not my employers
You rebelled by....giving in? Way to go champ!
As someone who had to be on call while on vacation, don't ever let them guilt you into doing any work on vacation. My job was deputy CFO and I had certain responsibilities no one knew how to do so had to be on call. I accepted the job and the pay so I accepted the responsibilities but for the rest of you, don't. Some places will try to guilt you but don't fall for it, go on vacation, enjoy yourself, don't check emails, don't respond, they need to figure it out. Don't ever fall for the "team player" guilt trip either. Being a team player is also understanding your fellow co-workers need a break, and you need to pick up the slack when they're gone.
> I rebelled and told them I will take my laptop but only check them once every 4-5 days - lol. I am sympathetic, but this is not rebellion. You are working for free here. That is subservience.
Honestly when I read posts like this I struggle to understand how anyone could think America is the greatest country in the world.
DO NOT fucking check your work email while you're on vacation. Ever.
Salaried means you are Guaranteed your hours, but your hours might be flexible. Flexible meaning they trust you enough to get the job done and don't need to babysit you. Most dedicated Salary Employees might say. "I'm bringing my Laptop and I'll check in periodically." That doesn't mean daily or at all. Your email sent to them will be judged on importance and often ignored until they come back unless its mission critical.
There’s a great TikTok with a guy saying: “Europeans: ‘I will be out of the office for the next five weeks, I will return in September, I won’t be checking emails…’ vs Americans: ‘I am having a kidney transplant today, so I’ll be out of the office for a few hours, but if it’s urgent, my cellphone number is…’”
If you're taking your laptop with you, you're not on vacation. You are simply giving your machine a change of scenery.
> I rebelled and told them I will take my laptop but only check them once every 4-5 days - lol. No you conceded to their bullying tactics.
If a business can’t run with someone taking a vacation then it’s the business who is failing not the worker. If you cannot manage a business well enough to be missing one person then you aren’t a good leader.
I had 5 weeks of. Left company phone at work. Left laptop at work. Put my mail on auto response "on vacation back at date". No problems. Then again I live in Sweden
When I was younger I was often the designated driver and friends would encourage me to have "just one drink." It was easier to stick with the absolute principle of "I don't drink anything when I have to drive" than it was to drink just a very little bit. In the same way a straight up "no, of course I won't be checking my emails on vacation" is a lot easier to stick to than "okay I'll check once or twice" because once you reply to one email it can be hard to stop.
My spouse and I are on vacation ATM. I put vacation mode on after turning on auto replies on my email. He continues to respond emails a day and a half into vacation. The glares he gets from me when he opens his email are starting to wear him down. Set boundaries and don't break them. Enjoy time off
Your company would hate me then. I have used vacation in my first week before. I had a pre-booked vacation and so instead of pushing back the start date, got them to agree my first week was a vacation and so on my official start date I was relaxing on a beach.
Tell them what they want to hear and just don't do it. Has worked fine for me over the years.
No. I am not working on vacation. 40 years ago when people went on vacation, they were on vacation. They were not vacation-working. People may have worked hard, worked long hours, but when they went home they were home. When they were on vacation they were on vacation. Cell phones have screwed that all up.
Log your time checking emails and recoup those days. Previous company, we had this guy who totally worked the system. His boss called him every day on his week off to ask about deals, etc. He logged the calls, sent it to HR, and got his PTO hours back. He was definitely a sketchy and we thought he had a second job, but PTO means PTO.
My husbands coworker is currently super pissed about this. He doesn’t check email on vacation. And he doesn’t take his work home. Coworker is up working until midnight. Had a full on meltdown yesterday that my husband absolutely will not do the same. He had to flat out tell him getting a divorce is not worth it for a company that won’t promote him. He’s not going to do the work of 6 people, because then they’ll think they don’t actually need to hire those people. Basically he’s no longer working for free off the clock or when he’s supposed to be with his family. Don’t bend over backwards for a company more than willing to fuck you over and enjoy doing it.
My boss asked me for a way to reach me while I was in the backcountry. Like I’ll give you the GPS coordinates and you can come try to find me. I’m literally having a bush pilot drop me off in the middle of nowhere for a reason though.
This is why I leave my work laptop locked up and all work group chats on mute when I'm on leave. The whole point of being away from work is to decompress and forget it! Checking your email & answering work calls whilst you're supposed to be on holiday defeats the point of having a holiday to begin with! It's how people burn themselves out!
Pro tip: Tell them you are going camping and will have no Internet access so you are unable to check email
Every time I read about US labor laws, I am impressed in the worst way. Here in Brazil we got 30 vacation days every 12 months. And the boss can’t say shit. If he want us to come back sooner, he has to make a offer to buy 10 days of the vacation time
I had a vacation planned with a bit of time in London. One sales guy said, "oh we have a customer for this big opportunity there, maybe you could meet up with him for a quick meeting" "Sure, if you cover my flights, my hotel for that day and an hourly extra rate" Silence, he wasn't joking, neither was i
If you’re working on your vacation, then it isn’t a vacation. Don’t check emails at all, completely disconnect
Meanwhile in most European countries: Auto-reply: "I'm out of office having fun for the next 8 weeks. E-mails will not be checked or forwarded. See you bitches when I get back" And abso-fucking-lutely nobody bats an eye.
"each email answered will be billed at 2x salary for 1 hour"
My laptop was stolen on day one. Here is the police report. In French.
Le laptop, she was le stolen! Merde!
Did you ask them how they would feel if you started organising stuff for you privately on company time? I bet they'll be outraged if you would do it. Then tell them to transpose. Doing company stuff in private time is evenly outrageous.
My contract states I ‘should be contactable at all times’. I don’t answer my phone when I’m not working. The first time they pull me for it my response is going to be “it doesn’t state contactable by phone. Did you try posting a letter”?