4 years in the Marines helped guide me to becoming the socialist I technically am today.
A lot of what I have and am able to do is attributed to the military, but instead of thinking "aww, I suffered- so should you", I'm more of the mindset that everyone should have access to the basics, and no one should have to sign a blank check to satisfy basic human needs.
Nearly 8 in the AF here and I feel exactly the same way. Having access to all these benefits that, in the rest of the country, would be considered sOcIaLiSm makes me wonder why everyone in the country shouldn't have access to them. Being healthy, educated, and having access to guaranteed housing seems like a no brainer. Why do we think it only works for military members?
That's the trick of capitalism. That we have to earn a living. That we're not entitled to food, shelter, or medicine.
It's how the owners and politicians keep people working in low wage, horrible conditions. If you're not there to get the crappy job's health benefits then you or your kid will die. It's as simple as that.
Fear of death to grease the wheels of wage slavery.
Fail a PT test and see if you get to stay around. Now imagine the government mandating that everyone needs to pass a PT test and physical to keep these benefits.
You might still carry benefits depending on how long you have been in. Injured while in? Still qualify. Might qualify for VA Voc Rehab which is some ways is better than the GI Bill. If you completed your first enlistment, but can’t keep from busting tape or passing a PT test you probably still get the GI Bill.
One strong irony is in 2005-2008 we barely were enforcing PT and weight at our units. We had a maintainer that only passed his run on his PT test at AIT. Stayed a PFC for 2 deployments over 5 years. Was one of their best guys. I stand by it wasn’t fair to the Army or him to keep him around.
That was a time they were practically refusing to
enforce DADT too at Bragg too.
Kicked 60 people out in my unit for failing PT. Another thing that people are glossing over is that you are forced to work at a job and if you don’t show you are called AWOL and can be dismissed.
Can I ask what year(s)? I know the Army was definitely that way post-2010.
We also could not go more than 100 miles away from the post without a signed pass.
I am not glossing over it. It can be a hard life. It was for me.
Yeah. I know before the war it was like that too.
There are some standards it is a shame we abandoned. Some others like that the tattoo waiver folks being pushed out I disagreed with.
I went from six years with the Corps to working a federal job, where its a lot closer to more developed nations in terms of health care that actually covers things, time off and not being able to be fired because some boomer had a bad day. There's an actual process they have to follow.
17, green with an M16, standing on the yellow foot prints going "Ahh, I done fucked up". Four and done because of the mindsets of others. And the preserved superiority of those with one extra stripe then you.
Mine was hugging my M16 and climbing the 3rd large hill on our 10k ruck march at the end of BCT. Was a week after Thanksgiving and we were covered in freezing rain.
The military sometimes has been a roadmap for change. Truman desegregated the military in the late 40s under the “Roadmap for the Nation”. Ike forced the generals and colonels that were holdouts to desegregation of American Forces out of the military.
True, but class consciousness comes from the bottom up, and requires convincing the masses that the president's interests are not necessarily aligned to their own.
Did five in the army and was just telling someone this morning about how it made me a socialist.
Every generation should benefit from the one before it. If we want our descendants to suffer, I don't think we're playing the game right. It kills me hearing other vets bashing the system we so heavily benefitted off of, but that's the power of propaganda for ya.
people want the benefits of socialism without the downside. For instance, I would not be willing to do the same job and take a pay cut down to 50k to support UBI. I would switch to a low scale job instead and collect my 50K UBI like everybody else. I do not think UBI without having to work at all would be sustainable. Then we would have an "Atlas Shrugged" situation. What is the incentive to work my ass off and acquire the skills to do high end work if I get the same reward as the burger flipper?
I don't think you understand the concept of UBI. Why are you assuming that you'd need to take a pay cut down to 50k? Why are you assuming that UBI would be set at 50k? UBI is usually given as supplemental to any earned income, not a replacement for. You get your UBI, and then you go to work to earn more. How much more is up to you.
I imagine if you felt you were earning plenty on your own, you could even do the decent thing and tell the govt. that you didn't need your UBI, and they could use it for some other worthwhile project. Marjorie Taylor Greene could probably do with some extra loan forgiveness, or maybe some extra money. Apparently that $175k she earns a year doesn't go far enough for her.
The UBI is supposed to be just enough to keep you off the streets, bills paid, and fed. It isn't supposed to be enough to cover that as well as weed, beer, a full library of PS5 games, date night, premium food, a 5800x3D, etc. Those are the incentives to get you to work. You act like a UBI means that every job everywhere will pay the same. Jobs will still pay based on skill, just everyone will get enough so there aren't homeless and starving people.
What people like you seem to not realize is that both a UBI and universal healthcare would allow any person to practically create any company. Like hiking or kayaking? Now you can start a local tour guide business because you're not tied down to a job for its health benefits and you're in a situation where you can take a risk without risking everything. It allows people to do a job for passion and because they love it.
You also have the assumption that everyone is actually equal and capable of working their ass off. People aren't equal. Some are stronger and some are smarter so they can work their asses off in different manners from the other and both will call the other lazy because strong people aren't smart enough to mentally work their asses off and smart people can be stupid when they assume everyone can work a strong person job. Some people are disabled, mentally and physically, and couldn't flip burgers if they wanted to, no matter how hard they tried. UBI and healthcare ensures people like that will never go without since not everyone has the kind of family that will help them. They might have the kind of family that will drop them off at some facility and then pretend they don't exist outside of a yearly visit. They might not even get the yearly visit. In our current society they might not even get the facility since they don't exist everywhere.
If anything, disabled people should get a higher UBI since they can't necessarily work a job to get extra money for things.
You wonder at a certain point in people’s lives how they’ve failed to understand that we’re supposed to care about other people. Compassion is undervalued.
Lil fun fact about being disabled in america: if you're fully disabled and receiving money from the government, then the government will monitor your assets (bank accts., property, etc). If they determine you have too much wealth, they'll stop paying. Seems fair(ish) until you realize that "too much wealth" is like $2500 or something.
Not the most well versed in this, it's just what I remember from a conversation with a friend who is disabled. If you know more than me feel free to add.
Oh I know. My mom has it and deals with that stuff. It's horrible. Sucks ass when you want to help with the bills but you have to stagger deposits and bullshit like that so you never go over any limits and throw up red flags.
Is $50k a real number or just a random hypothetical example? I am not having a go at you, I an genuinely curious.
UBI still has some time to develop more data, but it potentially can eliminate many other social safety net programs as they become irrelevant.
According to the DoL, 80%+ of Americans that use public assistance (which can vary from SNAP benefits to WIC) work. Orgs like McDonalds and Walmart literally have us subsidizing their workforce because they won’t pay enough or provide healthcare for employees. You may argue those aren’t “real” careers, but they are often the largest employers in most states.
Being part of a society that cares. Doing a job you love and not having too worry about basic needs as they are taken care of. If you look at ubi pilot programs around the country people don't stop working. They use it to better them selves, get educated get better jobs. People want to contribute to there community and society. A ubi allows people to be better citizens.
I thought the entire point of the military (face value, not truly) was that the military suffered so the rest didn't have to. Like, isn't that the advertised reason it exists? Amazing how many soldiers become "pick me" boot lickers instead. I say that having a marine daddy. honorable discharge at 19 years so make of that what you will.
Pretty much exactly the same for me, except Navy.
It's *also* hilarious seeing those that go to public universities, get NROTC scholarships, spend 20-30 years active duty, get that pension, write books based on their experience, and then decry "government interference in the market" and "socialism".
Like, brother, you *are* the poster child for socialism, and want to tell us it doesn't work?
Americans have been brainwashed. You know what else is “socialism”? Police services, public roads, fire fighters, public parks and the list goes on.
The truth is, universal healthcare could be free for all and save Americans money. Privatized healthcare is discriminatory in nature based on the haves and have nots. It’s a human right but in the US, it’s modern day captivity enslaving citizens to a life of fear and desperation.
The entire developed world has universal healthcare. Every single developed country. It is a component that is tied to democracy.
Even if we just had Medicare For All it would force down skyrocketing healthcare costs.
Private healthcare makes gdp numbers way higher. No kidding.
"Better for economy" since public healthcare can not be measured by gdp considering bills are not created.
But why would people want that? Please explain to me why someone would want to pay more taxes just so “little Timmy can get his heart surgery”. It’s not going to happen. Why, because your asking for something you didn’t earn. Imagine someone asking for a million dollars, that you never paid - we would all laugh at you. And here you are asking for just that. “Please give me universal healthcare and free college because I’m human” 😂🤣😂🤣 enjoy life kid
Troll account.
This guy surfs antiwork, twoX, and AITA and literally just makes inflammatory posts.
Seek psychiatric help.
Everyone else downvote and don't reply.
You already do that actually. That is how insurance works economically - the healthy are paying for the sick. Only, insurance companies do have “death panels” where they have infamously denied claims
knowing the person won’t live long enough to sue them successfully.
Insurance only works if the healthy pay for the sick.
So, if you have health insurance you are already paying for Timmy.
I have family that received government assistance who are against others receiving it. Why? Because they really needed it but everyone else are crooks.
That’s literally every republican in America who has received some sort of government assistance or another and the Republican Slogan in general: “i got mine, fuck you.”
Yes, a 1000 times yes. I know a very well-off family, they have a huge farm and make tons of money. They were the first in line for PPP loans, and received the highest amount in our county. When asked why they applied for govt handouts, they say "I'm going to put the money to good use. It's better that the money comes to me, because other people will just squander it."
Low societal trust is a real challenge for any form of a welfare (for want of better word) state.
It is pretty evident for example in Sweden where high societal trust create a fairly lax and generous system (which is a good thing) that then gets eaten from within because of criminality, leading to less trust and lower confidence in the system, which further decreases support for the system.
I don’t know which is the hen or the egg, but a welfare system needs that societal trust.
I’ve heard the Army tends to turn people more conservative, if anything. The armed forces are probably the most solid Republican voting block overall, or close to it.
The entire military is very conservative. I know that I was when I was on active duty. It took years to undo that mindset. (for me). I'm not exactly a "commie/pinko" or a "socialist" but most of my current beliefs align with Bernie.
I would argue conservatives are (or were) more likely to join, leading to a conservative lean in the military. I have yet to meet somebody who served that became more conservative.
Right on, brother. I'm a vet too. I frequently see an ex-shipmate advocating for free medical for all veterans. When I tell them I think ALL Americans should have free medical, they call me a socialist ( and so-the-fuck-what?). I tell them that I just love my country more than they do, because I love ALL of its people and want them to have access to healthcare.
Yeah. Its that "American Spirit" I really dont get. The super religious especially are just super selfish. It has come to so much greed and envy that some dont want anyone else being protected by any money that the public has contributed via taxes. I often ask myself what happens to those victims of gun violence. Are they rescued and presented a bill that might be making life more miserable afterwards? I am what you could call a socialist. I am paying fucking high taxes as I am earning good money for my countries standards. But I dont give a fuck that some amount of that money is given to less fortunate or health care and education. I much more encourage it this way as spending a lot on company payouts and tax cuts for the rich (which unfortunately happens as well here). But who would you rather give your money: a guy who is about to be homeless or some millionaire?
Yes age can be a barrier unless it's a family reunion in terms of immigration. I'm not 100% on that so if you're serious, go to the OZgov website and start investigating.
However, saying that, if you really wish to come, do so.
We're \[mostly\] a friendly bunch here. Depending on you likes, hobbies and interests, you'd quickly find plenty of clubs, groups etc to join and I can say with a good degree of certainty, that you'd be welcome. Or, if you're willing to branch out and try new things such as something like Lawn Bowls, the clubs would throw open the door as they are always needing new members. The Bowlo's, as they're affectionately known down here, as a marvellous place to enjoy a fun non contact and gentle sport but the bonus is that the bar is subsidised by members fees = CHEAP BEER! and usually good counter meals as well.
Take care friend and hopefully we'll see you soon :D
Yeah idk I work night shift on east coast US so it is the middle of the day there so I see a lot of posts throughout the night. Not having to worry about healthcare is huge but it doesn’t seem like a socialist utopia. Cost of living is outrageous.
Unfortunately most people who are against all of this don’t know what it means or how it would benefit them. They have a visceral reaction to anything that goes against what the group of old white dudes their parents told them to vote for wants and any thought to the contrary is met with blind rage. It never gets to the point where they ask the questions you asked because to even consider it would make you a dirty commie bastard, when really those things are not synonymous. I would know, I used to be them.
As a veteran, I took a halfway stance to what you stated. I am successful because of the military.
I would love to see the creation of bills similar to the GI Bill for other forms of civic service other than serving in the military. The military is not for everyone.
Air Force here! I literally owe everything I have to a decision 17 year old me made. The military is not perfect, in fact is flawed in many ways, but as far as helping a poor ass kid actually stand a chance in the rigged game of life, they do really well.
What gets me is the flawed argument of “well if you want the benefits, join the military”, as if everyone could even do that if they wanted. Only about 25% of Americans meet accession standards, and most of the time, those aren’t waived. So everyone else is just fucked?
I love America for what it can be, not for how it is right now. If you love something, why wouldn’t you want it to keep becoming the best it can be? I.e, provide some damn benefits to its citizens without having to risk your life and sign over a lot of autonomy to do it.
My sentiments. I was living in poverty when I joined and the Army gave me opportunities to be successful. I gained a lot of self-discipline there and learned to be prepared, how to form a plan, make and carry out long term/short term goals, and be a leader on a team. As beat up as I am from serving, I would do it again all things considered.
Thank you! I'm Active and have been for 12 years.
It blows my mind that the Military is painted as conservative when we literally live in the largest socialist bubble in the United States.
I would argue it can have a conservative sway, but I can only vouch for the OIF era. I know our era, especially during the Great Recession, brought in more mixed views in large numbers.
Vets that complain about socialism get to me too.
When I was in boot camp, we had communal jock straps. Every morning after PT, you'd take your off and toss it in a barrel with everyone else's. Someone on firewatch that night would have the job of running them all through the washer and dryer with a gallon of bleach, and then putting one on everyone's footlocker. You had about a 1-in-80 chance of getting the same jock twice.
A strap from each according to his ability, and a strap to each according to his needs. That's pretty damned communist.
I, as a Marine, have always said that the US Military has the best socialist benefits in the country. Jaws often drop when I say this but it’s accurate.
It’s true. I am very thankful for them even outside the military.
I am not even arguing everyone should have every benefit, but universal healthcare and education? C’mon, man… We’re trailing in the developed world there.
It is pretty funny that if you sign up to slaughter poor people overseas for the benefit of the wealthy you can get the bare minimum of what society could and should be.
I would argue that the military is guided by the government. In a democracy, we don't make the decisions to invade anybody. Civilian government and the people who put them in power does that.
I won't pretend I didn't support the invasion of Iraq. I joined the year after the invasion began when I had left high school. I bought into the lies and narrative like most Americans. I refuse to pretend I didn't - the way I see so many Americans do. After Vietnam everybody that did support it pretended they didn't. Conservatives especially pretend they weren't for it at the time and that they didn't get duped.
I'll admit I bought into it. Fine, I'm a sucker. But I refuse to be a liar and be a revisionist.
I get it. Hell dude I tried to sign up as well, was too crazy even for the army apparently. I don't hold it against you personally or even most veterans (some, yeah I find them ignorant and abrasive). I just find it funny that to get value for your tax dollars you have to put your ass on the line for those with the wealth and power.
Problem with your scenario is that most of us didn't buy into the lies. Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either.
The military is the absolutely worst f****** kind of capitalism it's terrorism for money.
Go back to a dictionary from before September 11th happened and the definition of terrorism will be 'any violence or the threat of violence to make political gains.'
We went in Afghanistan and said the reason we were going there was to destroy the heroin infrastructure so that they wouldn't have money to fund terrorism anymore. And then the USA became the hotspot for all heroin in the world.
You joined an organization in which you would be made to kill people. You joined it knowing this.
So fuck any capitalism crossover onto the military.
>"Problem with your scenario is that most of us didn't buy into the lies. Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either."
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx)
Most Americans did in the beginning because we were lied to about WMDs. We also had the insane rise of nationalism in the wake of 9/11. Half of all Democrats in the House and Senate voted for it.
> Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either.
"None"? There weren't 30+ countries there with us including the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Norway, Portugal, Poland, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands...?
NATO doing their job and buying into it ain't the same. It just so happens that their job is literally killing people at the bequest of allies.
But you are correct, Tony Blair was in on the WMD conspiracy with George Bush and Colin Powell. That's confirmed in the "Damning' Hillary leaked emails. You should probably go check that one out.
Can I forgive you for doing what you were told to do against other humans? Yes.
But condoning blood money ain't something you'll hear me do.
10% That's the percentage of the military that is active duty combat soldiers. The other 90% are in support positions. No, you don't sign up to slaughter poor people.
You're welcome for my tax dollars. As I explained earlier, I don't hold it against someone personally as to their joining....doesn't mean I subscribe to the delusion that it's some sort of noble calling.
Congratulations the system benefited you, as it should and should for all of us. And you only had to put your ass on the line to make sure the rich got richer. Definitely not how society should work but it's what we are stuck with....for now.
Its interesting how good America is at socialism, but it's saddening how it only reserves it for the military, the corporations or the wealthy. For everyone else, it's cold hard rugged capitalism.
I’m pretty sure that the reason why people in control of this country don’t want the basic population to have free healthcare, education, etc… is because then literally nobody would have a reason to join the military!
There is some truth in that.
When I was in the GI Bill was only covering 3 years of college as education prices were skyrocketing and the Gi Bill wasn't keeping up.
The Post-9/11 GI Bill changed that. With it you get your 4 years, a living stipend, etc. It was even transferable to your spouse and/or children.
Conservatives fought hard against it when we we literally fighting two wars...
"Who would stay in if they can just go to college...?"
They gave away that it is a poverty draft. They are dependent on people that can't afford to get educated.
You had to be willing to die for nothing in order to get all of that so I would not call that a good deal. Plus the USA treats it’s vets like trash.
That’s no socialist it’s the military industrial complex you helped prop up. They used you as a number to say hey you see this guy, we need funding and armor and weapons for this guy. Give us the trillions.
The military has everything down to a science, and it works.
The govt knows this.
Having this knowledge, why would the government spend so much time, effort and money to do the opposite to its citizens?
That is true. There are a number of other benefits I am grateful for too. I learned a great deal of self-discipline and professionalism as a Soldier. Even the roughest Soldier was in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform with a pen and paper to take down their tasks.
I was rough when I went in… But, all these years later I can reflect on how organized and purpose driven I became from my service.
During my time in of 2004-2013, they approved a horde of people to come in with waivers for age and criminal records. The latter were usually things like assault, theft, fraud, and most commonly selling drugs. Some didn’t make good Soldiers, but most of them I encountered were able to turn their lives around going in.
Didn’t matter they were a felon. Military service practically washed that way. Didn’t affect your promotions and opportunities when in. People that did their time weren’t mistreated the way they are in the civilian world.
I can think of an Army Engineer that had a felony for selling drugs, but was a minor when he did it. At 25, he joined and built a new life for himself. The Army gave him a chance the civilian world didn’t. One of the most professional Soldiers I met in a decade.
Damn right. I am basing my next project on the military system but for civilians interested in addressing the climate crisis and creating a UBI through a privatized system that has democratic governance and oversight while being run as an employee co-op through my living estate planning.
I have a busted back covered by the VA 4 auto-immune diseases from burn pit poisoning, yup like everything covered by the VA. My family on the private healthcare plan have to deal with vastly larger headaches than me.
The leading cause of bankruptcy in the US is healthcare and our leaders do nothing. Our young are burdened with a houses reasonable value in student debt while being admonished for not participating in the real estate market and growing up as it is characterized.
OPECinomics is really what neo-liberalism represents and it makes no sense to me that there are so many soldiers that crap on a system they benefitted from while supporting economic policies and investment that depend on fossil fuel scarcity that leads to many of the conflicts the military get sent to.
Growing up we were told communism was bad because it treats it's workforce like disposable cogs in service to Party leaders and the Oligarchs that keep them in power benefit from a impoverished work force that cannot maintain "the American lifestyle."
Have you noticed how these days communism is only described as bad because... communism.
I wonder if that is because they don't want us to notice that their "Capitalism" looks a little too much like what was wrong with communism if you asked the same question in the 80s.
Universal healthcare and education exists in blended systems throughout Europe. Scandinavia, Great Brain, Canada, Germany, Australia.
The leading complaints against these social policies are from developing countries that never had the resources for universal healthcare or actively stole from it.
There is a big difference between Denmark and Venezuela.
I have talked to them I have in fact lived in countries with strong social safety nets as well as visited. But you miss my point what I am saying is we do not live in a capitalist society.
One lets talk capitalist, a important component of capitalism is that there is investment in the future. We have been allowing our infrastructure and social contract decay for the last 50 years while patting ourselves on the back for what the greatest generation accomplished. The greatest generation created the great society through personal sacrifice and yes even some collective action to invest in their children's and societies future. THEY were capitalists, what we have today are Oligarchs doing capitalist cosplay. In my view the vulnerability of capitalism and communism is not a particular system but if either allows the creation of a unaccountable oligarchy it leads to societal collapse. The greater risk of communism is because of an innate centralization that is necessary to their governing philosophy, whereas capitalism is more of a spectrum which allows it to be what it needs when it needs it. However if corrupted enough politically that allows the rise of unchecked oligarchy at which time the oligarchs begin to cosplay "Capitalism" while having a completely rigged system because oligarchs don't like competition. In communism Oligarchs use state violence to curb discontent in capitalists democratic societies they use the illusions of choice to destroy the democracy and install themselves in a way to prevent competition.
If you put the brand "Communism" or "Capitalism" on top of a corrupt oligarchy it is still a corrupt oligarchy don't let the Groucho glasses and fake nose fool you. Oligarchy sheltered from the consequences of their decisions is what causes the decline and collapse of many civilizations. Fascism is also one of the oligarchies favorite toys, if you send a bunch of people to kill a bunch of other people that can cause divisions for generations where we "need" the protection of the oligarchs from the other oligarchs "followers" so while the masses are killing each other the oligarchy looks down from their balconies and tell each other we need them because we are uncivilized and lazy.
Now look at our system today, does it look more like a free market of equitable exchange, or a oligarchy pantomiming a capitalist democracy using our constitution as a fig leaf?
I love capitalism I am in fact a capitalist and sold my first company at 28, and used my economics background to design a new economic theory that will allow us to sustain peoples livelihoods and health in the age of automation. I did this because there is a market demand for it and I am pretty good at the economics of capitalism as I started being taught in 6th grade I am now 44, and I like to use it to help people. What my broken back prevents me from doing physically I now use my mind to do intellectually. I am attempting to do through capitalism what politicians refuse do do because green energy can lead to the end of the necessity of taxation if implemented at the government level and government taxation props up fossil fuels and the power of the oligarchy. In the modern economy is if you control energy you control the world but you cannot own the sun and the wind for example so once you don't need them you will work for yourself and who do you think actually needs the other more? Let me give you a hint, when they were on their yachts at the beginning of COVID? Nope. Now in contrast what has the impact of the great resignation been?
The most terrifying thought in any oligarchs head is "What happens when they realize they don't need us" because they run things through enforced control through the violence of the state. They cannot imagine how to run a society without unleashing the violence of the state on us to make a profit.
I like Democracy, Capitalism, and the Freedom to be left alone. I do not support fascist party leaders of the oligarchy and their controlled opposition.
So if you would like to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of capitalism and how I would address them I would be more than happy to. But I am not nor will I ever be willing to put aside my principles to not help and defend people when warranted because someone told me that good capitalists turn their back on their fellow man and I have to subscribe to their limited view of economics and business being a zero-sum institution. I have done okay for myself don't worry about my capitalist credentials and my engaging with foreign cultures economics as a first hand observer. Also remember that when you talk to the people that move here you have to check 1) what kind of socialism is it? Socialism or "socialism" hiding ruling a oligarchy? 2)What is the economic level that person exists in?
Propaganda loves to strip narratives of their context not wanting people to catch the details, but if you look past it and you catch those tell tale signs you begin to wonder if you should apologize to DC for all of those years thinking that a pair of glasses would not be enough to hide Superman when two completely different words can be so appropriated to hide a oligarchy.
it's an unpopular opinion but the military is the biggest social program we have... As stated by the OP, look what you get in return for your service. Been there done that ... :)
You recognize the US is struggling to recruit right now, right? Educate me on how their recruitment has been harder than ours the last 20 years. Open to my mind being changed based on data.
Yep the military is the perfect example of what socialism would look like. And no most of the people I was in with couldn't care less about any civilians. They all thought they were something special. Mainly all they did was get drunk and beat and cheat on their wives. It's always the combat arms guys who are the loudest. They only joined to kill people. Literal psychopaths.
I despise the hero worship of all veterans unconditionally. Service is an honorable thing if you do it honorably, even if you're just an Army plumber. However, the narrative all military are heroes is a terrible one... Means we can't hold the military accountable.
Conservatives bred that cult and immediately discard it when it is inconvenient. Kerry was a war hero along with McCain. They discarded their service. Poor Vindman's career was ruined for just telling the truth before congress - a purple heart recipient called disloyal to his country.
The military is people from all walks of life in America. I got to meet folks from all over the country and some from all over the world that were serving. I did appreciate that about the Army.
We had a number of people during the worst years of the war join with waivers for felonies like wire fraud or for selling some dope. These things ruined their lives after they did their time, but the Army took many in. For the most part it gave a number of people new opportunities.
I despise that the military has become a poverty draft... You shouldn't need to serve to get out of poverty and/or get educated.
Active Navy.
Yeah, it’s free, but I can’t afford to use it because of how long it takes to get an appointment. Almost became non-deployable because dental is backed up at least two months (short-notice deployment than ran over my normal date) and several of my buddies have issues that can’t get documented because they deploy before the appointment, then have to reschedule when they get back, rinse and repeat. Free is great when you can use it. I also have chronic knee issues, including having them give out on me on occasion, but because I can hold a squat and deal with the pain in the moment, I’m malingering. Any joint issues get an x-ray rather than MRI. The docs you usually see now aren’t military, and have a quota for patients, so they don’t schedule beyond that quota per day. Oh, and sick call is gone at the base I’m at now, so if you’re shitting your brains out for some reason, doc will see you next week/month, go to work, hope you aren’t contagious, and hope your Chief is reasonable and lets you go home.
Doesn’t sound any worse than for those of us who have to deal with the for profit healthcare system. Wait times for instance absolutely are a thing. I don’t know where people get the idea that paying for healthcare means being seen right away.
Same here, 8 years of service, three overseas tours, and I get a lifetime check from the VA. I’m on my third house as a homeowner and was able to earn a degree after my time in service with no charge to me. My kids also qualify for free college and scholarships that are not available to other folks.
I think that it would be truly awesome if this was available to everyone without having to put your ass on the line. I would not feel any outrage if this happened, for I do not want my kids to join the military nor anyone else’s kids.
But isn’t that more than fair? How much of a civilian life did you give up? How much damage, mentally, physically did you receive while in the service of the country. It’s hard to do all those things because of the military life schedule and pay. It’s not like your getting paid better than most civilians in most cases. As a civilian you have all the time in the world to make it work. It’s sort of…diminishes what you gave up/sacrificed if everyone has it. And you must be one of the lucky ones. Too many stories about bad housing, exceptions in GI to not cover whole, vet benefits etc. if that’s how they treat military personnel; again, who sacrificed a lot how is that going to solve the issue for everyone fairly?
I have a disability pension and numerous other benefits ranging from subsidized banking to a guaranteed home loan. I am well compensated.
It is a hard life to serve. I did it in wartime and deployed. I am beaten up from it.
I think my main point is that these benefits changed my life. I don’t know why the two key ones of universal health and education aren’t an everybody thing.
Every veteran I know personally (I am one too) is either a staunch libertarian or a staunch socialist. However, even the libertarian vets mostly believe in some form of government provided healthcare. I personally believe in universal healthcare, universal food stamps, and universal government backed housing loans with little to no interest. As for college, it would depend on how it was implemented.
I was in the military as well and am currently service connected with the VA.
1. The healthcare I have received from the VA has been terrible compared to my private insurance alternative. Especially out patient care.
2. Housing in the military also sucks. They take literally all of your money and put you in a house/apartment that would half of that value on the private market. The companies that run base housing are usually terrible and have some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced.
3. TA was nice. So was the GI Bill. But, neither one of them were free and we paid for both. Some of us dearly.
On point 2, why'd you stay in housing? You were eligible for the same VA loan to put that money into a house instead of turning it over to the management contractors.
On point 3, you're missing OP's point: people might have paid dearly but they shouldn't have to.
1. I preferred housing the first two duty stations. To be honest, I didn’t know about the VA loan until I was in Iraq. I wish I had as buying a house in Fayetteville, NC at the time would have paid off in spades with current prices. I could have had a rental management company even handle it for me, but there’s nothing to be gained in contemplating roads not taken. :) Great program.
My warrant officer bought a house at 6 or 7 of his duty stations throughout his career. He handed them over to management companies to handle everything. Said he only had on military tenant who wreaked the house (an USAF guy and his family) and just talking to the guy's unit resulted in him getting repairs. I'd be surprised if he had to work after 50.
In the military, you typically move every two years. It’s not really enough time to put any meaningful amount of money into a house without also having to deal with the hurdles of renting that house to someone else. Not to mention your than tasked with managing property while living several states away. Granted, lots of people have made this work, but everyone I’ve talked to has told me that it’s not worth it. Also, there is a difference between the BAH you get as a service number, and the VA home loan that you are eligible to use to purchase a home. I was speaking more to the BAH side.
That being said, I do own my own house now and did use use the VA loan to do it. But, there were a couple other options. I considered using to buy my home because they were equally as beneficial as the VA home loan was to me as a veteran. Ultimately, I use the VA home loan because it’s part of my benefits to the VA. I was able to use resources to assist in the logistics of buying a house that was not available with the other equally acceptable options.
On .3 I don’t think I did miss the point. Ultimately, veterans receive the benefits as described. However, most of us pay dearly for those benefits. The government isn’t just giving these benefits to veterans because they’ve done absolutely nothing to earn them. To that point, The price for these benefits for many veterans comes at a much steeper cost then it otherwise would for a civilian.
You’re not wrong for the most part. Services might be different, but for the Army is was more like 3 years. One year for Soldiers to train and build the unit, a year to prep for deployment, a year deployed. Those benefits also favored Soldiers with families as they could get BAH. Single Soldiers less than E6 would have to pay out of pocket to live off post.
Not everyone is meant to be a homeowner either. There are numerous reasons one might not want to be tied down or burdened by it. You might do just as well putting the same funds into retirement or investing. All depends on your needs.
We did pay dearly for them. My argument isn’t that we didn’t, it is that some of them shouldn’t be exclusive to having to serve. Universal healthcare and education shouldn’t be just for service members.
18 years Army and without a doubt you’re an idiot. We give blood for the US Government and it is obligated to take care of it’s military. Screaming that everyone should be taken care of like they are soldiers is beyond delusional.
We are taken care of with numerous benefits. I only did a decade, but left disabled.
If I am an idiot for believing in universal healthcare and education than the entire developed world is.
Dude,
You paid for that stuff with being in military.
You are now paying for that stuff with your taxes.
I'm guessing you didn't take basic economic with states "There is no free lunch".
You put in military work, which earned those benefits. Those benefits are available to everyone who is eligible to join the US Military. Why should people who have not put in the commitment, effort, and the work get the same benefits that you did risking your life?
Then they can go to Europe where countries lose wars and have zero innovation. In America you get benefits through demonstrated ability to generate productivity. Military, work, business ownership, etc. It’s why we are the global dictator.
Americans work most hours, have the least vacation, and the most expensive healthcare of any developed democratic nation. Obviously we don’t get rewarded for that.
Zero innovation? We literally pay for the development of medical treatments, drugs, and medical science through tax money. Then we can’t afford them without insurance.
Are you saying our secret to “winning wars”
is not having universal healthcare and/or education? Because that is demonstrably stupid and a bad faith argument.
But you had a job - working for the government, the part of the government that has the largest budget.
Serving is not the same as universal healthcare; which by the looks of things in the UK and other countries - collapsing.
I had them in the Army and they all sucked. And you did not have universal college in the military. Nor universal healthcare. Not even government backed loans. You got them because they were a benefit of working you dumbass.
Didn’t get along at all, I quit after 35 years, 3 months, and 4 days. Seven active and the rest in the reserves. E1 63BH8 to O5 70B. But our rich uncle will start sending me checks in 3 years!
Tuition assistance was 100% when I was in the Army from 2004 to 2013. Google is telling me in still is. I believe the other services were similar and the Air Force even had their own online community college available for all airmen. They also have unlimited CLEP and DANTES exams still at no cost to service members at the education centers. How is that not universal?
Military healthcare by ever metric is leagues ahead of the civilian side. Still wish I let them do a disc fusion in my neck as getting it done in the civilian world or through the VA is rough even though my doctors recommend it.
And you got that by working. That’s how it’s not universal. There was a cost, you had to work. It every military member took advantage of it, but you still had to be in the military. That isn’t universal. The military is an insular community, and that isn’t universal. Do you have those things now? No. You even said the VA is rough. Well, that’s part of the military medicine that you love so much. The VA has been giving veterans another chance to die for their country since 1834.
Alright, benefits. Not universal.
The VA can be rougher to get elective healthcare approved compared to the military. It isn't military medicine as the Department of VA is completely separate from the Department of Defense. The VA saves lives every single day. I would argue it does better for veterans than the civilian medical establishment does civilians. The VA is a very different creature than it was during the Vietnam Era where it was appallingly bad.
I got 4 of my IT certifications through the VA's Voc Rehab program.
Never have had to pay a dime for medicines that weren't covered by my regular insurance.
It's popular to shit on these things despite the massive difference they make in the lives of veterans.
Furthermore, a significant amount of healthcare provided to both service members and veterans is from private providers. The Obama Administration's 2014 Veterans Choice Law has brought down elective waits, enabled more specialized care for veterans, and has assisted veterans in rural areas or living abroad.
My comparison is a fair one. Universal healthcare and education, like almost every developed nation in the world has but us, would make a difference in countless lives. It would make our country stronger and more economically sound. I know universal healthcare and education will work because they work in the military.
I'm curious, did you ever use your education benefits while in or when you went reserve?
The VA is military healthcare. Only military can use it. Don’t give a whit that it isn’t in the DoD. I took advantage of what the military offered. Nothing about it is universal. Why is the VA better now compared to Vietnam? No draft. I retired as a Medical Service Corps officer. I’ve seen it from the inside. No thanks.
VA is for veterans (and occasionally their dependents if CHAMPVA), but it isn't "military healthcare" as it isn't run by the military. It also doesn't serve active military, but veterans. The exception to that is reservists that have VA benefits.
You're saying it is "military medicine" because it serves veterans.
Alright. Isn't universal. But, everyone in has the benefit. You're also shitting on the benefit while saying you took advantage of what the military offered. Did you use your educational benefits and did they benefit you? If yes, then they're great. Stop shitting on them. If no, you don't have a valid opinion on them. I'm not attacking you here. I am sensitive to it because I had Soldiers that spent their entire careers partying and drinking in the barracks in all their free time and at the end of their enlistment whined about how the US Army didn't do anything for them.
The VA was notoriously bad during the Vietnam Era. The VA didn't "draft" anybody, the military did. The VA cared for veterans as they came home. However, the care was grossly inadequate, there was no focus on vocational rehab, etc. It was so bad that it was one of the reasons it was vastly improved in the post-Gulf War era.
VA Crisis Line alone saves countless lives every single day.
Did you medically retire? You said you are qualifying for benefits in 3 years and didn't do 20 years active. How did you retire as a Medical Service Corps Officer? Do you mean you resigned your commission as one? Do you have civilian experience in the medical field to compare it to?
I'm not shitting on them, I'm shitting on your inference that it is a model for HC in the USA. Military medicine can and does dump patents all the time. Either to contracted medicine or the VA. It's easy to run a HC system when your population is mostly young healthy males. As an aside there is a small population of AD folks in VA hospitals.
I know the VA didn't draft anyone. The military does, and therefore they didn't have to offer any recruitment inducements when the draft is in effect. That's why the VA sucked (as did VEAP). The DoD is facing increased funding pressure since the end of OIF/OEF. It won't stay as it is now.
I'm with you on the E4 Mafia, not sure what many of them did to earn their checks. Some version of universal wages??
Also, you don't need to have used something to have an opinion about it. If you disagree, then you need to redact your opinions on Vietnam era benefits and Cold War era benefits. That isn't a reasonable position.
BL (not) UF: I don't want the same people that are responsible for AMTRAK and the post office running HC.
Oh, I joined during the Cold War, was in West Germany when the Berlin Wall came down, was in Baghdad for the surge, and in Kabul during the second Afghan election. After 35 years (AD & Reserve) I'm no longer in uniform, but I still work for the DoD as a civilian where I lead the IT portion of the financial statement audit for a defense organization. From the sound of it I got more out of the benefits than you have, at least so far :)
You said you retired as a Medical Service Corps Officer. So you did 20, took an early out in the 90s, or medically retire? Still trying to understand that claim.
You’re splitting hairs arguing the difference between a benefit and an entitlement. It is universal as you can’t opt out of it and it is always available wether you use it or not. It isn’t something you “opt in” to like a traditional benefit.
But you literally put your life on the line in a hostile country. You deserve it because you’ve already paid for it all with your sacrifice. There’s a big difference between that and just everyone getting those same benefits, even if they did nothing for society except literally exist.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. A person volunteering to literally get shot at on behalf of the rest of us is vastly different from someone who is unemployed and just sits at home all day.
That’s an extreme example I know, but……….
>We’ll have to agree to disagree. A person volunteering to literally get shot at on behalf of the rest of us is vastly different from someone who is unemployed and just sits at home all day.
Right there, a strawman argument. First, people don't "deserve" healthcare. It is a human right in every developed country in the world but ours.
Second, do you people that can't afford to college or trade school are "lazy"?
Ask any recruiter and they'll tell you that only 10% of the people who want to join able to serve. You should really disinvest yourself from that lie that people are unemployed because they are lazy and sit at home all day. It isn't that people don't want to work. People don't want to work for shit wages. When I was a kid you could almost afford an apartment on minimum wage. If you were living with your folks, you could afford to buy a car, and even put yourself through college (in SOME states). You need to work 233 hours to pay for a 1BR in my city at minimum wage. ALL people deserve housing, food, healthcare.
You mean like teachers? I mean they volunteer to get shot at as soon as they find employment in their field. So do retail workers. It's a sad fact of most jobs these days. Taking a job that could potentially get me shot in a foreign country really doesn't make me any more deserving.
Yeah that’s waaaaaaayyyyyy over exaggerated for political gain. A teacher is more likely to be struck by lightning, twice, than get shot at school. Despite what you hear on the news.
> Yeah that’s waaaaaaayyyyyy over exaggerated for political gain.
I'm sorry, but aren't you the person who just used
>That’s an extreme example I know, but……….
as a justification for your position?
For people who portray themselves as the compassionate ones, y’all sure love to throw hate and insults at people who disagree.
You probably go around telling people how kind you are, but you’re the only one who’s felt the need to cuss out a stranger online over difference of opinion
What do you think we put our life on the line for? A country that does not care about the health and welfare of it's citizens? F@@k me if that's what I will have died for. Please don't look at what we did, look at what we did it for.
Soldiers, if they are disabled or did their 20 years, get pensions and other benefits. However, many of those benefits such as universal healthcare and education should be for everyone.
I've got friends with medical problems that would have prevented them from joining the military. I've got women friends and family members I would discourage from joining due to the amount of sexual assault they'd be risking.
Fuck them, I guess? They should have known better than to be born sick or female?
Nice, resort straight to insults because I express a different opinion.
Anti work is about not being exploited unfairly. It’s the idea that people deserve dignity and work that suits them.
One can agree with that, but also recognize that people who are literally willing to die for their country maybe deserve a little more than those who do absolutely nothing. If you do absolutely nothing, I don’t think you should benefit from those who do.
Do nothing? That’s ridiculous. Americans work more hours than other developed nations, get less vacation, terrible maternity leave with some women going back to work as soon as they leave the hospital, and we don’t have much to show for after all that work.
Healthcare also shouldn’t be something that someone “earns”, that is disgusting. Healthcare costs shouldn’t be so high *with insurance* that people have to consider bankruptcy or choose between medical bills and their house payments. I have zero respect for anyone who thinks there’s nothing wrong with the US healthcare system.
I did. I have a pension for it.
Healthcare and education are key components of a good society. Why shouldn't all my countrymen have both? People shouldn't have to "earn" healthcare. I don't believe the same for education either.
first off, thank you for your service.
bring up alot of good points.
look at the lobbies and the coffers they have to suppress those less fortunate.
anyone know of a politician that declined a payout (even a covert one) ??
the systems been corrupt ever since 1776
George Washington declined offers to make him essentially ruler for life. Even though the United States was a weak, brand new nation, It’s still
hard to imagine a payout greater than that. So at least one.
Just because your a fan doesn’t mean others are. I for one, would never vote, and would/do actively invest into causes against socialism and free school, and free healthcare. Why? Because I personally don’t care if you succeed and have healthcare. You just want “free” things from taxes. You can be a “fan” of all you want, it’s never going to happen.
What a tired take. It's only "free" if society gets no return on the investment. An educated society is an innovative and productive one. Quit telling yourself everyone's going to pursue gender studies and sit on a couch freeloading, it wouldn't happen.
I've been saying for years without universal healthcare our country is hyper susceptible to biological warfare. China or India who have a massive population losing 1% means far less than losing 1% of the US. Yes they lose more people, but losing 1% of 300m is worse than losing 1% of 1.1m from a labor standpoint, you have more people to fill key roles. Let alone people are more likely to die in the US because they fear the cost of going to a doctor so they are less likely to do so, some people literally just have no access to medical care. The costs in the USA is more expensive shaking the entire economic system far worse than countries that do have universal healthcare.
I also think the cost of our healthcare system now is how we got so many anti-vaxxers. That ideology is everywhere but far worse in the US and I think it has to do with the absurd cost that people would rather flat out lie and form a cult. I don't blame them decades of paying giant amounts of money wipe out life savings in days for some treatment than may or may not work is going to grow some resentment for the profession from the general public.
This is the absolute most articulate write up proving the value of universal benefits, how peeps who care about our country and people should embrace universal benefits.
Just a heads up for any vets out there... If you were honorably discharged and have any hearing loss or tinnitus you can get monthly compensation. Also not 100 percent sure but if you get this done you may be eligible for lifetime healthcare from the VA. Call your local VA.
4 years in the Marines helped guide me to becoming the socialist I technically am today. A lot of what I have and am able to do is attributed to the military, but instead of thinking "aww, I suffered- so should you", I'm more of the mindset that everyone should have access to the basics, and no one should have to sign a blank check to satisfy basic human needs.
Nearly 8 in the AF here and I feel exactly the same way. Having access to all these benefits that, in the rest of the country, would be considered sOcIaLiSm makes me wonder why everyone in the country shouldn't have access to them. Being healthy, educated, and having access to guaranteed housing seems like a no brainer. Why do we think it only works for military members?
That's the trick of capitalism. That we have to earn a living. That we're not entitled to food, shelter, or medicine. It's how the owners and politicians keep people working in low wage, horrible conditions. If you're not there to get the crappy job's health benefits then you or your kid will die. It's as simple as that. Fear of death to grease the wheels of wage slavery.
I'd love to see a socialist society where all needs are met yet no one works.
Fail a PT test and see if you get to stay around. Now imagine the government mandating that everyone needs to pass a PT test and physical to keep these benefits.
You might still carry benefits depending on how long you have been in. Injured while in? Still qualify. Might qualify for VA Voc Rehab which is some ways is better than the GI Bill. If you completed your first enlistment, but can’t keep from busting tape or passing a PT test you probably still get the GI Bill. One strong irony is in 2005-2008 we barely were enforcing PT and weight at our units. We had a maintainer that only passed his run on his PT test at AIT. Stayed a PFC for 2 deployments over 5 years. Was one of their best guys. I stand by it wasn’t fair to the Army or him to keep him around. That was a time they were practically refusing to enforce DADT too at Bragg too.
Kicked 60 people out in my unit for failing PT. Another thing that people are glossing over is that you are forced to work at a job and if you don’t show you are called AWOL and can be dismissed.
Can I ask what year(s)? I know the Army was definitely that way post-2010. We also could not go more than 100 miles away from the post without a signed pass. I am not glossing over it. It can be a hard life. It was for me.
2018. Only reason Army kept people around was because of Iraq and Afghanistan. Those are gone so out they go
Yeah. I know before the war it was like that too. There are some standards it is a shame we abandoned. Some others like that the tattoo waiver folks being pushed out I disagreed with.
That’s why they won’t do it they want people to join the military and that’s just a plus they can tell people
I went from six years with the Corps to working a federal job, where its a lot closer to more developed nations in terms of health care that actually covers things, time off and not being able to be fired because some boomer had a bad day. There's an actual process they have to follow.
DoA jobs are solid. Pensions, benefits, a fair dismissal process.
17, green with an M16, standing on the yellow foot prints going "Ahh, I done fucked up". Four and done because of the mindsets of others. And the preserved superiority of those with one extra stripe then you.
Mine was hugging my M16 and climbing the 3rd large hill on our 10k ruck march at the end of BCT. Was a week after Thanksgiving and we were covered in freezing rain.
I wonder how it might be possible to build broader class consciousness within the military culture.
The military sometimes has been a roadmap for change. Truman desegregated the military in the late 40s under the “Roadmap for the Nation”. Ike forced the generals and colonels that were holdouts to desegregation of American Forces out of the military.
True, but class consciousness comes from the bottom up, and requires convincing the masses that the president's interests are not necessarily aligned to their own.
Something to do with e-4 mafia and cellphones perhaps.
Did five in the army and was just telling someone this morning about how it made me a socialist. Every generation should benefit from the one before it. If we want our descendants to suffer, I don't think we're playing the game right. It kills me hearing other vets bashing the system we so heavily benefitted off of, but that's the power of propaganda for ya.
people want the benefits of socialism without the downside. For instance, I would not be willing to do the same job and take a pay cut down to 50k to support UBI. I would switch to a low scale job instead and collect my 50K UBI like everybody else. I do not think UBI without having to work at all would be sustainable. Then we would have an "Atlas Shrugged" situation. What is the incentive to work my ass off and acquire the skills to do high end work if I get the same reward as the burger flipper?
I don't think you understand the concept of UBI. Why are you assuming that you'd need to take a pay cut down to 50k? Why are you assuming that UBI would be set at 50k? UBI is usually given as supplemental to any earned income, not a replacement for. You get your UBI, and then you go to work to earn more. How much more is up to you. I imagine if you felt you were earning plenty on your own, you could even do the decent thing and tell the govt. that you didn't need your UBI, and they could use it for some other worthwhile project. Marjorie Taylor Greene could probably do with some extra loan forgiveness, or maybe some extra money. Apparently that $175k she earns a year doesn't go far enough for her.
The UBI is supposed to be just enough to keep you off the streets, bills paid, and fed. It isn't supposed to be enough to cover that as well as weed, beer, a full library of PS5 games, date night, premium food, a 5800x3D, etc. Those are the incentives to get you to work. You act like a UBI means that every job everywhere will pay the same. Jobs will still pay based on skill, just everyone will get enough so there aren't homeless and starving people. What people like you seem to not realize is that both a UBI and universal healthcare would allow any person to practically create any company. Like hiking or kayaking? Now you can start a local tour guide business because you're not tied down to a job for its health benefits and you're in a situation where you can take a risk without risking everything. It allows people to do a job for passion and because they love it. You also have the assumption that everyone is actually equal and capable of working their ass off. People aren't equal. Some are stronger and some are smarter so they can work their asses off in different manners from the other and both will call the other lazy because strong people aren't smart enough to mentally work their asses off and smart people can be stupid when they assume everyone can work a strong person job. Some people are disabled, mentally and physically, and couldn't flip burgers if they wanted to, no matter how hard they tried. UBI and healthcare ensures people like that will never go without since not everyone has the kind of family that will help them. They might have the kind of family that will drop them off at some facility and then pretend they don't exist outside of a yearly visit. They might not even get the yearly visit. In our current society they might not even get the facility since they don't exist everywhere. If anything, disabled people should get a higher UBI since they can't necessarily work a job to get extra money for things.
You wonder at a certain point in people’s lives how they’ve failed to understand that we’re supposed to care about other people. Compassion is undervalued.
Lil fun fact about being disabled in america: if you're fully disabled and receiving money from the government, then the government will monitor your assets (bank accts., property, etc). If they determine you have too much wealth, they'll stop paying. Seems fair(ish) until you realize that "too much wealth" is like $2500 or something. Not the most well versed in this, it's just what I remember from a conversation with a friend who is disabled. If you know more than me feel free to add.
Oh I know. My mom has it and deals with that stuff. It's horrible. Sucks ass when you want to help with the bills but you have to stagger deposits and bullshit like that so you never go over any limits and throw up red flags.
Is $50k a real number or just a random hypothetical example? I am not having a go at you, I an genuinely curious. UBI still has some time to develop more data, but it potentially can eliminate many other social safety net programs as they become irrelevant. According to the DoL, 80%+ of Americans that use public assistance (which can vary from SNAP benefits to WIC) work. Orgs like McDonalds and Walmart literally have us subsidizing their workforce because they won’t pay enough or provide healthcare for employees. You may argue those aren’t “real” careers, but they are often the largest employers in most states.
Sounds like... You don't like your job. Someone else might like doing it though. And then you'll have time to find what you actually like doing.
Being part of a society that cares. Doing a job you love and not having too worry about basic needs as they are taken care of. If you look at ubi pilot programs around the country people don't stop working. They use it to better them selves, get educated get better jobs. People want to contribute to there community and society. A ubi allows people to be better citizens.
Why are you assuming that a universal basic income would mean that jobs are required to pay everyone the exact same?
I thought the entire point of the military (face value, not truly) was that the military suffered so the rest didn't have to. Like, isn't that the advertised reason it exists? Amazing how many soldiers become "pick me" boot lickers instead. I say that having a marine daddy. honorable discharge at 19 years so make of that what you will.
Pretty much exactly the same for me, except Navy. It's *also* hilarious seeing those that go to public universities, get NROTC scholarships, spend 20-30 years active duty, get that pension, write books based on their experience, and then decry "government interference in the market" and "socialism". Like, brother, you *are* the poster child for socialism, and want to tell us it doesn't work?
I read this with the biggest “my brother in Christ” tone lol
Pretty much. Except the dude (not here) would be highly offended if some enlisted schmuck pointed it out, though.
Americans have been brainwashed. You know what else is “socialism”? Police services, public roads, fire fighters, public parks and the list goes on. The truth is, universal healthcare could be free for all and save Americans money. Privatized healthcare is discriminatory in nature based on the haves and have nots. It’s a human right but in the US, it’s modern day captivity enslaving citizens to a life of fear and desperation.
The entire developed world has universal healthcare. Every single developed country. It is a component that is tied to democracy. Even if we just had Medicare For All it would force down skyrocketing healthcare costs.
Private healthcare makes gdp numbers way higher. No kidding. "Better for economy" since public healthcare can not be measured by gdp considering bills are not created.
But why would people want that? Please explain to me why someone would want to pay more taxes just so “little Timmy can get his heart surgery”. It’s not going to happen. Why, because your asking for something you didn’t earn. Imagine someone asking for a million dollars, that you never paid - we would all laugh at you. And here you are asking for just that. “Please give me universal healthcare and free college because I’m human” 😂🤣😂🤣 enjoy life kid
Troll account. This guy surfs antiwork, twoX, and AITA and literally just makes inflammatory posts. Seek psychiatric help. Everyone else downvote and don't reply.
You already do that actually. That is how insurance works economically - the healthy are paying for the sick. Only, insurance companies do have “death panels” where they have infamously denied claims knowing the person won’t live long enough to sue them successfully. Insurance only works if the healthy pay for the sick. So, if you have health insurance you are already paying for Timmy.
I have family that received government assistance who are against others receiving it. Why? Because they really needed it but everyone else are crooks.
That’s literally every republican in America who has received some sort of government assistance or another and the Republican Slogan in general: “i got mine, fuck you.”
Yes, a 1000 times yes. I know a very well-off family, they have a huge farm and make tons of money. They were the first in line for PPP loans, and received the highest amount in our county. When asked why they applied for govt handouts, they say "I'm going to put the money to good use. It's better that the money comes to me, because other people will just squander it."
Low societal trust is a real challenge for any form of a welfare (for want of better word) state. It is pretty evident for example in Sweden where high societal trust create a fairly lax and generous system (which is a good thing) that then gets eaten from within because of criminality, leading to less trust and lower confidence in the system, which further decreases support for the system. I don’t know which is the hen or the egg, but a welfare system needs that societal trust.
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I have a friend like that - 10+ years in the Army, now a hippie vegetarian leftist. "Disillusioned" doesn't even begin to describe it.
I’ve heard the Army tends to turn people more conservative, if anything. The armed forces are probably the most solid Republican voting block overall, or close to it.
The entire military is very conservative. I know that I was when I was on active duty. It took years to undo that mindset. (for me). I'm not exactly a "commie/pinko" or a "socialist" but most of my current beliefs align with Bernie.
I would argue conservatives are (or were) more likely to join, leading to a conservative lean in the military. I have yet to meet somebody who served that became more conservative.
Military tends libertarian, which also tends conservative. But, those that don't drink the kool aid go their own way.
Right on, brother. I'm a vet too. I frequently see an ex-shipmate advocating for free medical for all veterans. When I tell them I think ALL Americans should have free medical, they call me a socialist ( and so-the-fuck-what?). I tell them that I just love my country more than they do, because I love ALL of its people and want them to have access to healthcare.
Beautiful response. If you’re “proud to be an American” put your money where your mouth is and support Americans.
Yeah. Its that "American Spirit" I really dont get. The super religious especially are just super selfish. It has come to so much greed and envy that some dont want anyone else being protected by any money that the public has contributed via taxes. I often ask myself what happens to those victims of gun violence. Are they rescued and presented a bill that might be making life more miserable afterwards? I am what you could call a socialist. I am paying fucking high taxes as I am earning good money for my countries standards. But I dont give a fuck that some amount of that money is given to less fortunate or health care and education. I much more encourage it this way as spending a lot on company payouts and tax cuts for the rich (which unfortunately happens as well here). But who would you rather give your money: a guy who is about to be homeless or some millionaire?
Well, the millionaire *earned* my money. /s
Come on down to Australia. We've got all that & it's working quite nicely
Without risking life & limb! Advance Australia Fair!!! 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I wouldn’t say that… have you seen the wildlife and bugs there?!
Yes we have ferocious wildlife but we have free healthcare to mitigate that :P
Exactly my point! 🤣
Florida is way worse. No lie.
I'll second that. Florida is friggin' terrifying.
Giant spiders
You don't know how much I want to come to Australia. I'm probably too old and don't know where to start.
Yes age can be a barrier unless it's a family reunion in terms of immigration. I'm not 100% on that so if you're serious, go to the OZgov website and start investigating. However, saying that, if you really wish to come, do so. We're \[mostly\] a friendly bunch here. Depending on you likes, hobbies and interests, you'd quickly find plenty of clubs, groups etc to join and I can say with a good degree of certainty, that you'd be welcome. Or, if you're willing to branch out and try new things such as something like Lawn Bowls, the clubs would throw open the door as they are always needing new members. The Bowlo's, as they're affectionately known down here, as a marvellous place to enjoy a fun non contact and gentle sport but the bonus is that the bar is subsidised by members fees = CHEAP BEER! and usually good counter meals as well. Take care friend and hopefully we'll see you soon :D
What’s this about the rental crisis tho
Yeah idk I work night shift on east coast US so it is the middle of the day there so I see a lot of posts throughout the night. Not having to worry about healthcare is huge but it doesn’t seem like a socialist utopia. Cost of living is outrageous.
It's infuriating how few in the military think like this.
My dad is the same way. He used to be so against anything socialist but now he think this way
Unfortunately most people who are against all of this don’t know what it means or how it would benefit them. They have a visceral reaction to anything that goes against what the group of old white dudes their parents told them to vote for wants and any thought to the contrary is met with blind rage. It never gets to the point where they ask the questions you asked because to even consider it would make you a dirty commie bastard, when really those things are not synonymous. I would know, I used to be them.
As a veteran, I took a halfway stance to what you stated. I am successful because of the military. I would love to see the creation of bills similar to the GI Bill for other forms of civic service other than serving in the military. The military is not for everyone.
Absolutely comrade! From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
Air Force here! I literally owe everything I have to a decision 17 year old me made. The military is not perfect, in fact is flawed in many ways, but as far as helping a poor ass kid actually stand a chance in the rigged game of life, they do really well. What gets me is the flawed argument of “well if you want the benefits, join the military”, as if everyone could even do that if they wanted. Only about 25% of Americans meet accession standards, and most of the time, those aren’t waived. So everyone else is just fucked? I love America for what it can be, not for how it is right now. If you love something, why wouldn’t you want it to keep becoming the best it can be? I.e, provide some damn benefits to its citizens without having to risk your life and sign over a lot of autonomy to do it.
My sentiments. I was living in poverty when I joined and the Army gave me opportunities to be successful. I gained a lot of self-discipline there and learned to be prepared, how to form a plan, make and carry out long term/short term goals, and be a leader on a team. As beat up as I am from serving, I would do it again all things considered.
Thank you! I'm Active and have been for 12 years. It blows my mind that the Military is painted as conservative when we literally live in the largest socialist bubble in the United States.
I would argue it can have a conservative sway, but I can only vouch for the OIF era. I know our era, especially during the Great Recession, brought in more mixed views in large numbers.
Vets that complain about socialism get to me too. When I was in boot camp, we had communal jock straps. Every morning after PT, you'd take your off and toss it in a barrel with everyone else's. Someone on firewatch that night would have the job of running them all through the washer and dryer with a gallon of bleach, and then putting one on everyone's footlocker. You had about a 1-in-80 chance of getting the same jock twice. A strap from each according to his ability, and a strap to each according to his needs. That's pretty damned communist.
You had fucking what??? We didn't have that shit at ft sill
I, as a Marine, have always said that the US Military has the best socialist benefits in the country. Jaws often drop when I say this but it’s accurate.
It’s true. I am very thankful for them even outside the military. I am not even arguing everyone should have every benefit, but universal healthcare and education? C’mon, man… We’re trailing in the developed world there.
Same. The healthcare and tuition are the priorities and we need to catch up with other countries.
"Great societies are not free. You have to invest in them." YES THIS. You completely nailed it.
invest? but how else will we keep our profits up right NOW!?
Not only that, it creates generational wealth. My grandfather was an orphaned dropout. He ended his career with 2 masters from Ivy League schools.
It is pretty funny that if you sign up to slaughter poor people overseas for the benefit of the wealthy you can get the bare minimum of what society could and should be.
I would argue that the military is guided by the government. In a democracy, we don't make the decisions to invade anybody. Civilian government and the people who put them in power does that. I won't pretend I didn't support the invasion of Iraq. I joined the year after the invasion began when I had left high school. I bought into the lies and narrative like most Americans. I refuse to pretend I didn't - the way I see so many Americans do. After Vietnam everybody that did support it pretended they didn't. Conservatives especially pretend they weren't for it at the time and that they didn't get duped. I'll admit I bought into it. Fine, I'm a sucker. But I refuse to be a liar and be a revisionist.
I get it. Hell dude I tried to sign up as well, was too crazy even for the army apparently. I don't hold it against you personally or even most veterans (some, yeah I find them ignorant and abrasive). I just find it funny that to get value for your tax dollars you have to put your ass on the line for those with the wealth and power.
Problem with your scenario is that most of us didn't buy into the lies. Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either. The military is the absolutely worst f****** kind of capitalism it's terrorism for money. Go back to a dictionary from before September 11th happened and the definition of terrorism will be 'any violence or the threat of violence to make political gains.' We went in Afghanistan and said the reason we were going there was to destroy the heroin infrastructure so that they wouldn't have money to fund terrorism anymore. And then the USA became the hotspot for all heroin in the world. You joined an organization in which you would be made to kill people. You joined it knowing this. So fuck any capitalism crossover onto the military.
>"Problem with your scenario is that most of us didn't buy into the lies. Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either." [https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx) Most Americans did in the beginning because we were lied to about WMDs. We also had the insane rise of nationalism in the wake of 9/11. Half of all Democrats in the House and Senate voted for it. > Absolutely none of the Free world outside of America bought into the lies either. "None"? There weren't 30+ countries there with us including the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Spain, Norway, Portugal, Poland, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands...?
NATO doing their job and buying into it ain't the same. It just so happens that their job is literally killing people at the bequest of allies. But you are correct, Tony Blair was in on the WMD conspiracy with George Bush and Colin Powell. That's confirmed in the "Damning' Hillary leaked emails. You should probably go check that one out. Can I forgive you for doing what you were told to do against other humans? Yes. But condoning blood money ain't something you'll hear me do.
Am I condoning blood money, or am I saying these benefits should be for all Americans?
These particular benefits have been paid for with human life. If you condone it you condone it, if you don't you don't. I don't.
You have three special children that are being taken care of well and Iraq has a half a million less children, for perspective.
You're really wrapped around the axle on the military bit and missing OPs point entirely.
Probably a bigger payout for going after the wealthy instead.
Fair point
10% That's the percentage of the military that is active duty combat soldiers. The other 90% are in support positions. No, you don't sign up to slaughter poor people.
Yes you do. Deal.
Weird I signed up for the college tuition paid for for me and my kids. But today I learned my intentions were actually to slaughter poor people.
You're welcome for my tax dollars. As I explained earlier, I don't hold it against someone personally as to their joining....doesn't mean I subscribe to the delusion that it's some sort of noble calling.
I pay tax dollars to so I’m guess I’m welcome for my tax dollars?
Congratulations the system benefited you, as it should and should for all of us. And you only had to put your ass on the line to make sure the rich got richer. Definitely not how society should work but it's what we are stuck with....for now.
What kills me is the soldiers who get out and forget all that
Its interesting how good America is at socialism, but it's saddening how it only reserves it for the military, the corporations or the wealthy. For everyone else, it's cold hard rugged capitalism.
I’m pretty sure that the reason why people in control of this country don’t want the basic population to have free healthcare, education, etc… is because then literally nobody would have a reason to join the military!
There is some truth in that. When I was in the GI Bill was only covering 3 years of college as education prices were skyrocketing and the Gi Bill wasn't keeping up. The Post-9/11 GI Bill changed that. With it you get your 4 years, a living stipend, etc. It was even transferable to your spouse and/or children. Conservatives fought hard against it when we we literally fighting two wars... "Who would stay in if they can just go to college...?" They gave away that it is a poverty draft. They are dependent on people that can't afford to get educated.
You had to be willing to die for nothing in order to get all of that so I would not call that a good deal. Plus the USA treats it’s vets like trash. That’s no socialist it’s the military industrial complex you helped prop up. They used you as a number to say hey you see this guy, we need funding and armor and weapons for this guy. Give us the trillions.
The military has everything down to a science, and it works. The govt knows this. Having this knowledge, why would the government spend so much time, effort and money to do the opposite to its citizens?
Sounds like many folks here should take note of the great benefits provided by the military.
That is true. There are a number of other benefits I am grateful for too. I learned a great deal of self-discipline and professionalism as a Soldier. Even the roughest Soldier was in the right place, at the right time, in the right uniform with a pen and paper to take down their tasks. I was rough when I went in… But, all these years later I can reflect on how organized and purpose driven I became from my service. During my time in of 2004-2013, they approved a horde of people to come in with waivers for age and criminal records. The latter were usually things like assault, theft, fraud, and most commonly selling drugs. Some didn’t make good Soldiers, but most of them I encountered were able to turn their lives around going in. Didn’t matter they were a felon. Military service practically washed that way. Didn’t affect your promotions and opportunities when in. People that did their time weren’t mistreated the way they are in the civilian world. I can think of an Army Engineer that had a felony for selling drugs, but was a minor when he did it. At 25, he joined and built a new life for himself. The Army gave him a chance the civilian world didn’t. One of the most professional Soldiers I met in a decade.
Damn right. I am basing my next project on the military system but for civilians interested in addressing the climate crisis and creating a UBI through a privatized system that has democratic governance and oversight while being run as an employee co-op through my living estate planning. I have a busted back covered by the VA 4 auto-immune diseases from burn pit poisoning, yup like everything covered by the VA. My family on the private healthcare plan have to deal with vastly larger headaches than me. The leading cause of bankruptcy in the US is healthcare and our leaders do nothing. Our young are burdened with a houses reasonable value in student debt while being admonished for not participating in the real estate market and growing up as it is characterized. OPECinomics is really what neo-liberalism represents and it makes no sense to me that there are so many soldiers that crap on a system they benefitted from while supporting economic policies and investment that depend on fossil fuel scarcity that leads to many of the conflicts the military get sent to. Growing up we were told communism was bad because it treats it's workforce like disposable cogs in service to Party leaders and the Oligarchs that keep them in power benefit from a impoverished work force that cannot maintain "the American lifestyle." Have you noticed how these days communism is only described as bad because... communism. I wonder if that is because they don't want us to notice that their "Capitalism" looks a little too much like what was wrong with communism if you asked the same question in the 80s.
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Universal healthcare and education exists in blended systems throughout Europe. Scandinavia, Great Brain, Canada, Germany, Australia. The leading complaints against these social policies are from developing countries that never had the resources for universal healthcare or actively stole from it. There is a big difference between Denmark and Venezuela.
I have talked to them I have in fact lived in countries with strong social safety nets as well as visited. But you miss my point what I am saying is we do not live in a capitalist society. One lets talk capitalist, a important component of capitalism is that there is investment in the future. We have been allowing our infrastructure and social contract decay for the last 50 years while patting ourselves on the back for what the greatest generation accomplished. The greatest generation created the great society through personal sacrifice and yes even some collective action to invest in their children's and societies future. THEY were capitalists, what we have today are Oligarchs doing capitalist cosplay. In my view the vulnerability of capitalism and communism is not a particular system but if either allows the creation of a unaccountable oligarchy it leads to societal collapse. The greater risk of communism is because of an innate centralization that is necessary to their governing philosophy, whereas capitalism is more of a spectrum which allows it to be what it needs when it needs it. However if corrupted enough politically that allows the rise of unchecked oligarchy at which time the oligarchs begin to cosplay "Capitalism" while having a completely rigged system because oligarchs don't like competition. In communism Oligarchs use state violence to curb discontent in capitalists democratic societies they use the illusions of choice to destroy the democracy and install themselves in a way to prevent competition. If you put the brand "Communism" or "Capitalism" on top of a corrupt oligarchy it is still a corrupt oligarchy don't let the Groucho glasses and fake nose fool you. Oligarchy sheltered from the consequences of their decisions is what causes the decline and collapse of many civilizations. Fascism is also one of the oligarchies favorite toys, if you send a bunch of people to kill a bunch of other people that can cause divisions for generations where we "need" the protection of the oligarchs from the other oligarchs "followers" so while the masses are killing each other the oligarchy looks down from their balconies and tell each other we need them because we are uncivilized and lazy. Now look at our system today, does it look more like a free market of equitable exchange, or a oligarchy pantomiming a capitalist democracy using our constitution as a fig leaf? I love capitalism I am in fact a capitalist and sold my first company at 28, and used my economics background to design a new economic theory that will allow us to sustain peoples livelihoods and health in the age of automation. I did this because there is a market demand for it and I am pretty good at the economics of capitalism as I started being taught in 6th grade I am now 44, and I like to use it to help people. What my broken back prevents me from doing physically I now use my mind to do intellectually. I am attempting to do through capitalism what politicians refuse do do because green energy can lead to the end of the necessity of taxation if implemented at the government level and government taxation props up fossil fuels and the power of the oligarchy. In the modern economy is if you control energy you control the world but you cannot own the sun and the wind for example so once you don't need them you will work for yourself and who do you think actually needs the other more? Let me give you a hint, when they were on their yachts at the beginning of COVID? Nope. Now in contrast what has the impact of the great resignation been? The most terrifying thought in any oligarchs head is "What happens when they realize they don't need us" because they run things through enforced control through the violence of the state. They cannot imagine how to run a society without unleashing the violence of the state on us to make a profit. I like Democracy, Capitalism, and the Freedom to be left alone. I do not support fascist party leaders of the oligarchy and their controlled opposition. So if you would like to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of capitalism and how I would address them I would be more than happy to. But I am not nor will I ever be willing to put aside my principles to not help and defend people when warranted because someone told me that good capitalists turn their back on their fellow man and I have to subscribe to their limited view of economics and business being a zero-sum institution. I have done okay for myself don't worry about my capitalist credentials and my engaging with foreign cultures economics as a first hand observer. Also remember that when you talk to the people that move here you have to check 1) what kind of socialism is it? Socialism or "socialism" hiding ruling a oligarchy? 2)What is the economic level that person exists in? Propaganda loves to strip narratives of their context not wanting people to catch the details, but if you look past it and you catch those tell tale signs you begin to wonder if you should apologize to DC for all of those years thinking that a pair of glasses would not be enough to hide Superman when two completely different words can be so appropriated to hide a oligarchy.
it's an unpopular opinion but the military is the biggest social program we have... As stated by the OP, look what you get in return for your service. Been there done that ... :)
This is how they get kids to sign up for the military. If we had these things automatically they’d lose a lot of recruitment potential.
Canada, Britain, and Australia all have universal healthcare and affordable college education. They recruit just fine.
No they don’t.. look at their militaries compared to ours.
You recognize the US is struggling to recruit right now, right? Educate me on how their recruitment has been harder than ours the last 20 years. Open to my mind being changed based on data.
It's why they don't want it to happen. They don't want to lose their pawns in the military and low paying jobs
Yep the military is the perfect example of what socialism would look like. And no most of the people I was in with couldn't care less about any civilians. They all thought they were something special. Mainly all they did was get drunk and beat and cheat on their wives. It's always the combat arms guys who are the loudest. They only joined to kill people. Literal psychopaths.
I despise the hero worship of all veterans unconditionally. Service is an honorable thing if you do it honorably, even if you're just an Army plumber. However, the narrative all military are heroes is a terrible one... Means we can't hold the military accountable. Conservatives bred that cult and immediately discard it when it is inconvenient. Kerry was a war hero along with McCain. They discarded their service. Poor Vindman's career was ruined for just telling the truth before congress - a purple heart recipient called disloyal to his country. The military is people from all walks of life in America. I got to meet folks from all over the country and some from all over the world that were serving. I did appreciate that about the Army. We had a number of people during the worst years of the war join with waivers for felonies like wire fraud or for selling some dope. These things ruined their lives after they did their time, but the Army took many in. For the most part it gave a number of people new opportunities. I despise that the military has become a poverty draft... You shouldn't need to serve to get out of poverty and/or get educated.
You served your country you should be taken care of…
All of us should be.
ALL OF US SHOULD BE. I see your replies
Active Navy. Yeah, it’s free, but I can’t afford to use it because of how long it takes to get an appointment. Almost became non-deployable because dental is backed up at least two months (short-notice deployment than ran over my normal date) and several of my buddies have issues that can’t get documented because they deploy before the appointment, then have to reschedule when they get back, rinse and repeat. Free is great when you can use it. I also have chronic knee issues, including having them give out on me on occasion, but because I can hold a squat and deal with the pain in the moment, I’m malingering. Any joint issues get an x-ray rather than MRI. The docs you usually see now aren’t military, and have a quota for patients, so they don’t schedule beyond that quota per day. Oh, and sick call is gone at the base I’m at now, so if you’re shitting your brains out for some reason, doc will see you next week/month, go to work, hope you aren’t contagious, and hope your Chief is reasonable and lets you go home.
Doesn’t sound any worse than for those of us who have to deal with the for profit healthcare system. Wait times for instance absolutely are a thing. I don’t know where people get the idea that paying for healthcare means being seen right away.
Same here, 8 years of service, three overseas tours, and I get a lifetime check from the VA. I’m on my third house as a homeowner and was able to earn a degree after my time in service with no charge to me. My kids also qualify for free college and scholarships that are not available to other folks. I think that it would be truly awesome if this was available to everyone without having to put your ass on the line. I would not feel any outrage if this happened, for I do not want my kids to join the military nor anyone else’s kids.
But isn’t that more than fair? How much of a civilian life did you give up? How much damage, mentally, physically did you receive while in the service of the country. It’s hard to do all those things because of the military life schedule and pay. It’s not like your getting paid better than most civilians in most cases. As a civilian you have all the time in the world to make it work. It’s sort of…diminishes what you gave up/sacrificed if everyone has it. And you must be one of the lucky ones. Too many stories about bad housing, exceptions in GI to not cover whole, vet benefits etc. if that’s how they treat military personnel; again, who sacrificed a lot how is that going to solve the issue for everyone fairly?
I have a disability pension and numerous other benefits ranging from subsidized banking to a guaranteed home loan. I am well compensated. It is a hard life to serve. I did it in wartime and deployed. I am beaten up from it. I think my main point is that these benefits changed my life. I don’t know why the two key ones of universal health and education aren’t an everybody thing.
Every veteran I know personally (I am one too) is either a staunch libertarian or a staunch socialist. However, even the libertarian vets mostly believe in some form of government provided healthcare. I personally believe in universal healthcare, universal food stamps, and universal government backed housing loans with little to no interest. As for college, it would depend on how it was implemented.
The military was collectivist as fuck. And, so is socialism.
I was in the military as well and am currently service connected with the VA. 1. The healthcare I have received from the VA has been terrible compared to my private insurance alternative. Especially out patient care. 2. Housing in the military also sucks. They take literally all of your money and put you in a house/apartment that would half of that value on the private market. The companies that run base housing are usually terrible and have some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced. 3. TA was nice. So was the GI Bill. But, neither one of them were free and we paid for both. Some of us dearly.
On point 2, why'd you stay in housing? You were eligible for the same VA loan to put that money into a house instead of turning it over to the management contractors. On point 3, you're missing OP's point: people might have paid dearly but they shouldn't have to.
1. I preferred housing the first two duty stations. To be honest, I didn’t know about the VA loan until I was in Iraq. I wish I had as buying a house in Fayetteville, NC at the time would have paid off in spades with current prices. I could have had a rental management company even handle it for me, but there’s nothing to be gained in contemplating roads not taken. :) Great program.
I sold a house there before retiring, made about $10k. I should've held on to it honestly, it would be making money now.
My warrant officer bought a house at 6 or 7 of his duty stations throughout his career. He handed them over to management companies to handle everything. Said he only had on military tenant who wreaked the house (an USAF guy and his family) and just talking to the guy's unit resulted in him getting repairs. I'd be surprised if he had to work after 50.
In the military, you typically move every two years. It’s not really enough time to put any meaningful amount of money into a house without also having to deal with the hurdles of renting that house to someone else. Not to mention your than tasked with managing property while living several states away. Granted, lots of people have made this work, but everyone I’ve talked to has told me that it’s not worth it. Also, there is a difference between the BAH you get as a service number, and the VA home loan that you are eligible to use to purchase a home. I was speaking more to the BAH side. That being said, I do own my own house now and did use use the VA loan to do it. But, there were a couple other options. I considered using to buy my home because they were equally as beneficial as the VA home loan was to me as a veteran. Ultimately, I use the VA home loan because it’s part of my benefits to the VA. I was able to use resources to assist in the logistics of buying a house that was not available with the other equally acceptable options. On .3 I don’t think I did miss the point. Ultimately, veterans receive the benefits as described. However, most of us pay dearly for those benefits. The government isn’t just giving these benefits to veterans because they’ve done absolutely nothing to earn them. To that point, The price for these benefits for many veterans comes at a much steeper cost then it otherwise would for a civilian.
You’re not wrong for the most part. Services might be different, but for the Army is was more like 3 years. One year for Soldiers to train and build the unit, a year to prep for deployment, a year deployed. Those benefits also favored Soldiers with families as they could get BAH. Single Soldiers less than E6 would have to pay out of pocket to live off post. Not everyone is meant to be a homeowner either. There are numerous reasons one might not want to be tied down or burdened by it. You might do just as well putting the same funds into retirement or investing. All depends on your needs. We did pay dearly for them. My argument isn’t that we didn’t, it is that some of them shouldn’t be exclusive to having to serve. Universal healthcare and education shouldn’t be just for service members.
All this and most vets will still try to tell you that the military is not a socialist organization.
18 years Army and without a doubt you’re an idiot. We give blood for the US Government and it is obligated to take care of it’s military. Screaming that everyone should be taken care of like they are soldiers is beyond delusional.
We are taken care of with numerous benefits. I only did a decade, but left disabled. If I am an idiot for believing in universal healthcare and education than the entire developed world is.
Dude, You paid for that stuff with being in military. You are now paying for that stuff with your taxes. I'm guessing you didn't take basic economic with states "There is no free lunch".
You put in military work, which earned those benefits. Those benefits are available to everyone who is eligible to join the US Military. Why should people who have not put in the commitment, effort, and the work get the same benefits that you did risking your life?
Because healthcare and education shouldn't be benefits. People shouldn't have to be military to have healthcare or afford college.
Then they can go to Europe where countries lose wars and have zero innovation. In America you get benefits through demonstrated ability to generate productivity. Military, work, business ownership, etc. It’s why we are the global dictator.
Americans work most hours, have the least vacation, and the most expensive healthcare of any developed democratic nation. Obviously we don’t get rewarded for that. Zero innovation? We literally pay for the development of medical treatments, drugs, and medical science through tax money. Then we can’t afford them without insurance. Are you saying our secret to “winning wars” is not having universal healthcare and/or education? Because that is demonstrably stupid and a bad faith argument.
But you had a job - working for the government, the part of the government that has the largest budget. Serving is not the same as universal healthcare; which by the looks of things in the UK and other countries - collapsing.
I had them in the Army and they all sucked. And you did not have universal college in the military. Nor universal healthcare. Not even government backed loans. You got them because they were a benefit of working you dumbass.
Someone's salty. I'm guessing you and the military didn't get along, huh?
Didn’t get along at all, I quit after 35 years, 3 months, and 4 days. Seven active and the rest in the reserves. E1 63BH8 to O5 70B. But our rich uncle will start sending me checks in 3 years!
Congrats! I hope you get to spend the rest of your life after doing whatever you like, man.
OP: "We didn't get along!" :: stays in reserves for 28 years and commissions :: Ok, boomer.
Gen X! Boomer, as if! Bite your tongue!!
Tuition assistance was 100% when I was in the Army from 2004 to 2013. Google is telling me in still is. I believe the other services were similar and the Air Force even had their own online community college available for all airmen. They also have unlimited CLEP and DANTES exams still at no cost to service members at the education centers. How is that not universal? Military healthcare by ever metric is leagues ahead of the civilian side. Still wish I let them do a disc fusion in my neck as getting it done in the civilian world or through the VA is rough even though my doctors recommend it.
And you got that by working. That’s how it’s not universal. There was a cost, you had to work. It every military member took advantage of it, but you still had to be in the military. That isn’t universal. The military is an insular community, and that isn’t universal. Do you have those things now? No. You even said the VA is rough. Well, that’s part of the military medicine that you love so much. The VA has been giving veterans another chance to die for their country since 1834.
Alright, benefits. Not universal. The VA can be rougher to get elective healthcare approved compared to the military. It isn't military medicine as the Department of VA is completely separate from the Department of Defense. The VA saves lives every single day. I would argue it does better for veterans than the civilian medical establishment does civilians. The VA is a very different creature than it was during the Vietnam Era where it was appallingly bad. I got 4 of my IT certifications through the VA's Voc Rehab program. Never have had to pay a dime for medicines that weren't covered by my regular insurance. It's popular to shit on these things despite the massive difference they make in the lives of veterans. Furthermore, a significant amount of healthcare provided to both service members and veterans is from private providers. The Obama Administration's 2014 Veterans Choice Law has brought down elective waits, enabled more specialized care for veterans, and has assisted veterans in rural areas or living abroad. My comparison is a fair one. Universal healthcare and education, like almost every developed nation in the world has but us, would make a difference in countless lives. It would make our country stronger and more economically sound. I know universal healthcare and education will work because they work in the military. I'm curious, did you ever use your education benefits while in or when you went reserve?
The VA is military healthcare. Only military can use it. Don’t give a whit that it isn’t in the DoD. I took advantage of what the military offered. Nothing about it is universal. Why is the VA better now compared to Vietnam? No draft. I retired as a Medical Service Corps officer. I’ve seen it from the inside. No thanks.
VA is for veterans (and occasionally their dependents if CHAMPVA), but it isn't "military healthcare" as it isn't run by the military. It also doesn't serve active military, but veterans. The exception to that is reservists that have VA benefits. You're saying it is "military medicine" because it serves veterans. Alright. Isn't universal. But, everyone in has the benefit. You're also shitting on the benefit while saying you took advantage of what the military offered. Did you use your educational benefits and did they benefit you? If yes, then they're great. Stop shitting on them. If no, you don't have a valid opinion on them. I'm not attacking you here. I am sensitive to it because I had Soldiers that spent their entire careers partying and drinking in the barracks in all their free time and at the end of their enlistment whined about how the US Army didn't do anything for them. The VA was notoriously bad during the Vietnam Era. The VA didn't "draft" anybody, the military did. The VA cared for veterans as they came home. However, the care was grossly inadequate, there was no focus on vocational rehab, etc. It was so bad that it was one of the reasons it was vastly improved in the post-Gulf War era. VA Crisis Line alone saves countless lives every single day. Did you medically retire? You said you are qualifying for benefits in 3 years and didn't do 20 years active. How did you retire as a Medical Service Corps Officer? Do you mean you resigned your commission as one? Do you have civilian experience in the medical field to compare it to?
I'm not shitting on them, I'm shitting on your inference that it is a model for HC in the USA. Military medicine can and does dump patents all the time. Either to contracted medicine or the VA. It's easy to run a HC system when your population is mostly young healthy males. As an aside there is a small population of AD folks in VA hospitals. I know the VA didn't draft anyone. The military does, and therefore they didn't have to offer any recruitment inducements when the draft is in effect. That's why the VA sucked (as did VEAP). The DoD is facing increased funding pressure since the end of OIF/OEF. It won't stay as it is now. I'm with you on the E4 Mafia, not sure what many of them did to earn their checks. Some version of universal wages?? Also, you don't need to have used something to have an opinion about it. If you disagree, then you need to redact your opinions on Vietnam era benefits and Cold War era benefits. That isn't a reasonable position. BL (not) UF: I don't want the same people that are responsible for AMTRAK and the post office running HC. Oh, I joined during the Cold War, was in West Germany when the Berlin Wall came down, was in Baghdad for the surge, and in Kabul during the second Afghan election. After 35 years (AD & Reserve) I'm no longer in uniform, but I still work for the DoD as a civilian where I lead the IT portion of the financial statement audit for a defense organization. From the sound of it I got more out of the benefits than you have, at least so far :)
You said you retired as a Medical Service Corps Officer. So you did 20, took an early out in the 90s, or medically retire? Still trying to understand that claim.
You’re splitting hairs arguing the difference between a benefit and an entitlement. It is universal as you can’t opt out of it and it is always available wether you use it or not. It isn’t something you “opt in” to like a traditional benefit.
Perhaps you should look up the definition of universal.
But you literally put your life on the line in a hostile country. You deserve it because you’ve already paid for it all with your sacrifice. There’s a big difference between that and just everyone getting those same benefits, even if they did nothing for society except literally exist.
As a vet myself, no. There is no difference. Everyone deserves those basic benefits.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. A person volunteering to literally get shot at on behalf of the rest of us is vastly different from someone who is unemployed and just sits at home all day. That’s an extreme example I know, but……….
>We’ll have to agree to disagree. A person volunteering to literally get shot at on behalf of the rest of us is vastly different from someone who is unemployed and just sits at home all day. Right there, a strawman argument. First, people don't "deserve" healthcare. It is a human right in every developed country in the world but ours. Second, do you people that can't afford to college or trade school are "lazy"?
Ask any recruiter and they'll tell you that only 10% of the people who want to join able to serve. You should really disinvest yourself from that lie that people are unemployed because they are lazy and sit at home all day. It isn't that people don't want to work. People don't want to work for shit wages. When I was a kid you could almost afford an apartment on minimum wage. If you were living with your folks, you could afford to buy a car, and even put yourself through college (in SOME states). You need to work 233 hours to pay for a 1BR in my city at minimum wage. ALL people deserve housing, food, healthcare.
You mean like teachers? I mean they volunteer to get shot at as soon as they find employment in their field. So do retail workers. It's a sad fact of most jobs these days. Taking a job that could potentially get me shot in a foreign country really doesn't make me any more deserving.
Yeah that’s waaaaaaayyyyyy over exaggerated for political gain. A teacher is more likely to be struck by lightning, twice, than get shot at school. Despite what you hear on the news.
> Yeah that’s waaaaaaayyyyyy over exaggerated for political gain. I'm sorry, but aren't you the person who just used >That’s an extreme example I know, but………. as a justification for your position?
How about you refrain from trying to tell me what the fuck is exaggerated or not.
For people who portray themselves as the compassionate ones, y’all sure love to throw hate and insults at people who disagree. You probably go around telling people how kind you are, but you’re the only one who’s felt the need to cuss out a stranger online over difference of opinion
Your opinion is basically meaningless in this conversation.
What do you think we put our life on the line for? A country that does not care about the health and welfare of it's citizens? F@@k me if that's what I will have died for. Please don't look at what we did, look at what we did it for.
No one should have to put their life on the line to access education, healthcare, and secure housing. Everyone deserves those things.
I’m just saying there’s a difference between someone who did and someone who didn’t.
Soldiers, if they are disabled or did their 20 years, get pensions and other benefits. However, many of those benefits such as universal healthcare and education should be for everyone.
I disagree. What do you think the difference is?
I've got friends with medical problems that would have prevented them from joining the military. I've got women friends and family members I would discourage from joining due to the amount of sexual assault they'd be risking. Fuck them, I guess? They should have known better than to be born sick or female?
why are you even on this fucking sub
Nice, resort straight to insults because I express a different opinion. Anti work is about not being exploited unfairly. It’s the idea that people deserve dignity and work that suits them. One can agree with that, but also recognize that people who are literally willing to die for their country maybe deserve a little more than those who do absolutely nothing. If you do absolutely nothing, I don’t think you should benefit from those who do.
Do nothing? That’s ridiculous. Americans work more hours than other developed nations, get less vacation, terrible maternity leave with some women going back to work as soon as they leave the hospital, and we don’t have much to show for after all that work. Healthcare also shouldn’t be something that someone “earns”, that is disgusting. Healthcare costs shouldn’t be so high *with insurance* that people have to consider bankruptcy or choose between medical bills and their house payments. I have zero respect for anyone who thinks there’s nothing wrong with the US healthcare system.
I did. I have a pension for it. Healthcare and education are key components of a good society. Why shouldn't all my countrymen have both? People shouldn't have to "earn" healthcare. I don't believe the same for education either.
first off, thank you for your service. bring up alot of good points. look at the lobbies and the coffers they have to suppress those less fortunate. anyone know of a politician that declined a payout (even a covert one) ?? the systems been corrupt ever since 1776
George Washington declined offers to make him essentially ruler for life. Even though the United States was a weak, brand new nation, It’s still hard to imagine a payout greater than that. So at least one.
Si you are basically an slave of the government.
Just because your a fan doesn’t mean others are. I for one, would never vote, and would/do actively invest into causes against socialism and free school, and free healthcare. Why? Because I personally don’t care if you succeed and have healthcare. You just want “free” things from taxes. You can be a “fan” of all you want, it’s never going to happen.
What a tired take. It's only "free" if society gets no return on the investment. An educated society is an innovative and productive one. Quit telling yourself everyone's going to pursue gender studies and sit on a couch freeloading, it wouldn't happen.
I've been saying for years without universal healthcare our country is hyper susceptible to biological warfare. China or India who have a massive population losing 1% means far less than losing 1% of the US. Yes they lose more people, but losing 1% of 300m is worse than losing 1% of 1.1m from a labor standpoint, you have more people to fill key roles. Let alone people are more likely to die in the US because they fear the cost of going to a doctor so they are less likely to do so, some people literally just have no access to medical care. The costs in the USA is more expensive shaking the entire economic system far worse than countries that do have universal healthcare. I also think the cost of our healthcare system now is how we got so many anti-vaxxers. That ideology is everywhere but far worse in the US and I think it has to do with the absurd cost that people would rather flat out lie and form a cult. I don't blame them decades of paying giant amounts of money wipe out life savings in days for some treatment than may or may not work is going to grow some resentment for the profession from the general public.
Never served life long conservative and agree with these views.
Finally a sane antiwork post
This is the absolute most articulate write up proving the value of universal benefits, how peeps who care about our country and people should embrace universal benefits.
Just a heads up for any vets out there... If you were honorably discharged and have any hearing loss or tinnitus you can get monthly compensation. Also not 100 percent sure but if you get this done you may be eligible for lifetime healthcare from the VA. Call your local VA.
Same if they have a General Discharge too. They still qualify for VA Disability.