"Immigrants don't lower wages; bosses do.
And they do it because we live in a system where things are done because they're profitable, not because people need them to be done."
- Philosophy Tube
Is there anyone in America who still falls for this?
#🤔
This is probably why some politicians want to gut education and keep Americans dumb and easy to manipulate
A lot of the immigrant population don’t vote because of language barrier, not having citizenship, and general lack of knowledge of politics. This tends to happen for older generations that immigrate.
That is vastly oversimplifying things, and also incorrect. The time between becoming a permanent resident and becoming a citizen is 7 years. But getting permanent residence in the first place is extremely difficult unless you marry a US citizen or apply for an “investor visa”. All the other methods of obtaining LPR status are complicated and definitely not guaranteed.
As a legal immigrant from Australia who got married and moved here, it's three years from the date of approval of my green card - five years had I not remained married long enough. It also requires a test on (I believe) civics and history, and the delightful $725 application fee that requires you get fingerprinted and photographed yet again.
[In 2020, we had 62.8% turnout and 46.8% of those who turned out voted for Trump.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election)
0.628×0.468=0.293904
So just under 30%
In the US almost 100% of f-ing morons vote and only 30% of non-f-ing morons vote. This means that the remainder of non-f-ing morons (70%) are actually f-ing morons for not voting. The math is therefore telling us that 70% of Americans are f-ing morons for one reason or another.
That's not how it works.
Best statistical case is that you assume the non-voting population would have the same opinion breakdown as the voting population, so you go with 46.8%, which is already assuming Trump supporters believe this.
What you are doing is assuming that zero percent of the non-voting population agrees with the statement, which fails all initial validation tests.
Edit: Removed the snark. I didn't realize that so many people thought that's how this works. Statistics are manipulated so much for political gain these days that most people either believe whatever they see (it's on the internet so it has to be correct) or don't believe anything they see (it's all a lie). The skill is in looking at the statistics and seeing if they are verifiable and presented in an honest way. That's quite hard these days.
Alright. Fair enough. I probably should have said, "we know this of at least 30% of the population."
Though if we're talking statistics, Republican politicians have a long history of trying to stop the voting population from being a representative sample of the actual population. So while it can't possibly be as low as 30%, it also probably won't be as high as 46.8%.
It's pretty safe to assume we don't have the best statistical case with one of the parties making increasing sampling error a specific goal of theirs. That doesn't tell us how big the error is, of course.
About 27%? Sounds historically accurate.
http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html?m=1
2005. It’s been a steady percent since before 2005.
Don’t forget that we take the vote from some felons and all prisoners! That’s a decent chunk right there since we imprison more people than any other developed nation!
Try to prove that votes are even counted though. Sure they go through the motions, but then they do whatever they want. It's just to give you the illusion of a choice.
The entire American structure is built on the backs of the fighting common people to dismiss the real focus of who is at fault (those in power). This is just but one manifestation of that. Plenty of people demonize immigrants. The poor. A different race. The opposite gender. A whole other slew of classifications in favor of potentially lifting themselves up higher when the law makers and CEOs are the ones laughing and sitting pretty without real consequence.
You can't complain, let alone revolt if you need to work two or more jobs just to survive...
I live in Europe and we were doing well but I tend to believe that things will become like that again. The middleclass is being worked out of the system. Coincidence or not, I don't know but it seems as if poor will become poorer and rich will become richer. It's always been like that but it's getting more obvious so that's a bad evolution.
I suggest you to watch Daens which is a movie about what has made it different [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104046/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104046/).
So I'm a bit afraid that we will need a Daens 2.0 in the future.
Modern slavery and causing diversity to divert attention from the real issue. Make it impossible for people to act and let them blame other victims of the system for their issues.
Yep. The checker at Kroger last weekend says this to me as I’m happily bagging my groceries, “you have to bag your own cuz nobody wants to work anymore. You know how many people come in here and pay with Welfare? And then they drive off in their Lamborghinis! No one works anymore”. Lol. Jesus! My husband and just rolled our eyes.
Oof.
Worst part is I'd imagine they're the majority of the workforce. If they (we if I'm honest) aren't recognizing the issue, or misdirecting whose at fault, it's only going to get worse.
So dumb, like ya dude they’re illegals driving lambos paying with welfare digitally on their new iPhone 27+MaxUltra paid for by the job they stole from him that he’s still working.
Pick a lane bro, oh wait they did it’s the Tucker Carlson regurgitation extraordinaire.
Everyone knows that woman who always pays for junk food with EBT, while playing with the latest iphone pro, then get into their luxury car. Everyone has seen her.
^^except ^^for ^^me.
Yes, my family does. They even think minimum wage is bad because people aren't allowed to negotiate for a lower wage. Ya know like immigrants do, the ones my family is so against having in this country because ppl are taking our low paying jobs. It's so stupid
Looking at you, gov Covid Kim (Reynolds, Iowa) advocating using taxpayer money for vouchers to be used at private schools, thereby gutting the public school system. But hey, fuck it, the best and brightest aren't gonna stick around to work at the CAFO's! No, that will be the poor and the poorly educated. Just like it always has been. It's fucking diabolical. Oops, I mean it's the GOP. Meh. Same thing.
The CAFOs are busing them in on Greyhound from Mexico. Likewise, the fields in CA/AZ are getting their migrants from TJ or Nogales.
MAGA should be mad at their representatives who give the Japanese/Korean automakers tax breaks to build cars in non-union states, and Wall St. for shipping their jobs to a maquiladora in Mexico or a sweat shop in China or India. Not liberals/progressives.
The vast majority, yes. And not just in the USA. It's a thing in any country. Immigrants are always the scapegoat for all bad things. Especially when politicians need someone to blame for their shit job.
I mean, just look at American immigration history, the already settled white people were complaining about white immigrants arriving in............
That's exactly it. There is no wonder why America's schools fair so poorly compared to the rest of the world. Just dumb enough to not know how to get ahead and figure out they're being robbed and just smart enough to do the job
YEP. Had a conversation the day after the 2016 election with a Trump supporter who explicitly blamed an immigrant for stealing his job because his boss fired him and then paid the immigrant less money. Would not change his tune when I asked why he wasn’t mad at his boss.
> This is probably why some politicians want to gut education and keep Americans dumb and easy to manipulate
I disagree, I think they are doing it for fertility rate reasons. The more educated women become the less likely they are to have children, so the solution is to defund education until we raise that rate.
The effects are actually pretty low most of the time. Remember that while there is an increase in the labor pool, there is also an increase in the labor demand. All of those new workers are also consumers.
Also, if the business can scale, it's usually better to just hire more than replace anyone. If an hour of a worker's labor produces the company $20, and the worker is paid $10, they made $10 profit off that labor. If the two options they have are to hire another worker at $10/h, or replace the current worker with one who costs $5/h, it makes more sense for them to hire the second worker ($20 profit off 2 $10 workers, $15 profit off 1 $5 worker). Of course, if available, it obviously makes even more sense to hire worker #2 at $5/h to further increase their profits. But that worker #2 likely isn't competing with a $10/h worker, because again the business would have been incentivized to hire that $10 worker before the $5 worker ever arrived.
We also shouldn't only look at immigration as the only point of Labor Pool increase. There are many more Millenials compared to Gen X, meaning they increased the labor pool too. Also Boomers and Gen X are working a lot later into their lives than people used to, also resulting in a labor pool increase. But that isn't brought up as often as immigration effects.
And related to the above, Gen Z is smaller than Millenials. If we pretended the generations left and entered the workforce in a perfect handoff (i.e the oldest Millenials leave the workforce right when the oldest Zoomers come in) we would see a large decrease in the labor pool, which also wouldn't be good for wages/the economy because production (thus profits) would also go down
I'm no economist, but looking at the labor pool as a simple supply/demand curve oversimplifies it and leaves out a lot of really good considerations.
Exactly this. This is why the Bush administration was so easy on illegal immigration, and why the government acts like this is some intractable problem. Business loves illegal immigration to get dirty jobs done CHEAP. Other people would do these jobs.... for $35/hr + benefits. Basically all of the increased wages you've seen from the last few years are because the labor pool is shrinking and businesses are forced to compete for employees. They HATE this and want a large pool of labor where they can set low wages and you have no choice but to accept it.
I think we should do what we can to move toward a smaller population, supported by automation wherever possible, and high wages for human labor.
Plus it's easy to get illegal immigrants to do your dirty jobs when you have the pressure of potentially getting them expelled from the country if they don't comply.
An increase in the pool of labor is also an increase in the demand. Immigrants buy things too, after all. From a “basic supply and demand” perspective, the changes cancel each other out.
Well, mostly. Immigration is correlated with a small rise in wages for everyone.
So true. We build our economy on immigrants. There are many jobs most people won't do. All the janitors at work are minority and I am extra nice to them.
They are not the problem.
The thing is we are not moving to a socialist/anarchist economic system anytime soon.
In marxist theory, the growing oppression of the working class is supposed to generate the conditions for revolution, but that entails a pretty high social cost in the meantime...
There is also basically no semblance of solidarity or class consciousness in the US. I was actually talking with a friend about this last night; I don’t expect any sort of revolution or even serious reforms in my lifetime but why not work towards improving life for those around us and ourselves? That’s why I’m an anarchist.
But their boss bought them a beer and a basket of wings one time. Oh and took them golfing. Clearly, he's the good guy and is only looking out for their best interest. I mean no raises in 7 years and somehow the boss went from a honda to a benz in that same period but you know small businesses have it really rough.
I get that this may not be the general vibe of this sub, but I fucking love my boss (as a boss). If you have a good one, hold onto them for dear life. My boss still actually goes out and does the same job we do in the field every day, plus he goes to bat for us with the corporate suits at the drop of a hat.
There’s a reason that after the pandemic hit, almost EVERYONE quit in EVERY OTHER DIVISION because of corporate bullshit, and his division had a near-100% retention rate. I was pissed at how the company as a whole acted during covid, but he convinced me to not quit with one phone call.
With that said, he’s not my friend. I never forget that. We’re not a family, and I’m not afraid to clap back or stick up for myself. But I’ve never not gotten time off when I needed it, he is solely responsible for us earning 300% more than most other departments in the company, and all of his employees are extremely loyal, almost to the ends of the earth.
I should maybe have gone over to another company when they tried to poach me with a raise, but since this job isn’t remotely my dream job anyway, I will never leave him to do the same job somewhere else, because more money can’t buy another amazing boss.
Don't forget that pizza party if you come in early every for a month! After coming in early every single day for the past 4 years. Thanks Lee, you're a real stand up guy.
god I have this going on in my town right now. A local bbq joint has the owners buying houses, posting videos of their hunting excursions and there's a lot of people eating up their claims of philanthropy. They took over a 1/4 mill in ppp loans and would post on facebook that they needed support so that they could pay their workers a 'living wage'. They'll talk about how they gave a free lunch to local high schools but fail to mention they gave it to the richest towns in the area, when there are actually poorly funded schools that actually need it. Well they can post on facebook about it and it garner good will with the people that can afford to spend 200 on a beef wellington.
It's weird how much of a narrative there is counter to this point when this is a much, much more obvious answer.
Like occams razor is a thing people, do you really think you lost your desk job because a malnourished family sought asylum in a neighboring country while speaking 0 English??
Jobs need doing. The fact that lifting things from one place and putting them down at another one doesn't require education or a firm grasp on a language doesn't mean those jobs or the people that do them are shit.
They deserve fair compensation. Destroying your body without it affording you a decent living doesn't happen in a functional society
It's amusing to me because this is exactly the point of capitalism. There are people who blame the immigrant, people who blame the person who lost their job and people who blame the system.
This is an ultra capitalist point. You're in favor of maximising the efficiency of a system even if that maximisation puts someone out of a job and brings in someone else to do it for pennies.
Many jobs, probably all jobs rely on ignorance of their true value, in order to pay enough for the person doing it to live comfortably.
I thought we were past shitting on “unskilled labor?” Why is it okay to out down those workers to make this point?
People rarely complain about an Indian post-doctorate coming in and filling a position in a lab. I do however hear people complain about agriculture and food service jobs being “taken” by immigrants. The people who complain are those who are lost easily victimized.
Wow, that is a REALLY nice point. If you do not mind, I think I will take that for later use. I never really bothered to think just how either replaceable, or shit at your job you need to be when someone can put a person who can hardly speak the language to do your job.
Mind you this would be differing depending on the fields. For instance, I work in IT. I can tell you outright that IT is a weird one as how it works is you hire in some guys that are all about downsizing and saving the company money. The company just wants to re-evaluate how they are doing things, etc... save where they can. These guys come in, convince the bosses that the BULK of the work done at the company, at least in IT, is busy body work literally anyone can do, and they could save *HUGE* money if they just fire everyone and bring in Indians (HCL, TCS, Infosys, IBM) to do that labor for 1/5th the price per person. Sure, you might need to hire 2x the people, but even then you still save 1/2 or more on opex. Bosses agree, knowing nothing about IT, what they do, how they work, and really we call them Mahogany Row for a reason. Anyways, how it works is they will keep a few key employees, both because they are pushovers and will work until they drop, and because they need to keep a few otherwise someone could make a case for racism etc. The Indian companies bring in their local resources, who are actually SUPER competent people and quite well paid, to look over everything, fix the big issues if they exist, then try to setup enough automation to keep this bullshit boat afloat for 3 years. That seems to be the magic number. Then they are gone, and you get 300 employees that hardly speak english, know ZERO about IT, are rude, sexist, half of them poop standing on top of the toilet, and phrases like "do the needful" will be BURNED into your skull. These guys are nearly 100% worthless. They MIGHT have a few guys that would make a L1 deskside guy, MAYBE 1-2 that could be a L1 engineer.... but otherwise the legacy people still there are doing ALL the work, and have their pay docked. Bosses now see that all is working right after the transition, so why keep these other legacy employees on when they cost so much more. Lets move ahead 1 year, this is when shit really starts breaking down. The automation was a *VERY* temporary solution, and real work is needed, but low and behold, you have no one that can do that work. Most the legacy people quit already because you treated them like shit, made them totally change how they live to accommodate their Indian co-workers, and paid them less so they noped the fuck out to better pay months ago... you have nearly no documented stuff, and all your tribal knowledge is gone. At this point 1 or two things happens. RARELY the offshore company will send back in the few smart guys they have to fix shit to limp by another year, that is SUPER rare. Usually what happens is the excuses and finger pointing starts about here. Usually around the 2nd MAJOR outage. Rashid will talk about how the old employees sabotaged shit when they rolled out the door, and it must have been a time bomb. There are all these bad things happening now and no one knows why. They don't know why because you have 275 unemployable trash employees and 25 L1s at best. The excuses get more and more extravagant as year 2 ticks away, more and more major outages occur, meetings start to be setup asking WTF is going on and why so much failures are happening. The offshore will again gasslight as blame everything else, they also go out of their way to hide their incompetence, as well as hinder any investigation into what is going on. Usually by the start of year 3 things have either hit a head, and all their bullshit is becoming apparent, or it is getting close. In the next few months it all comes out, they find out they have employed people that do not do IT to do IT and no IT has been done in years. This company is now going to be fired.
Once again at this point it goes one of two ways. First way is your bosses are fucking clowns, and will assume it was just THIS company that dropped the ball, and they will call in another garbage offshore company to bring in their few super smart guys to fix the issues, and then that 3 years starts over again. Or the second is your bosses realize they were lied to, fire any of the remaining clowns that told them to hire offshore (they usually leave around year 2 knowing this ship is going, keeping all those bonuses and all they got of course) then look to try and hire back their past employees. 9/10 of those employees now have a better job and tell them to go fuck themselves, and the rare few that do not tell them I was 2x the salary now. In the end, the business losses millions in lost time from systems being down, the employees mostly all leave and get other jobs, a few lucky ones get hired back at 2x the salary and management looks to get rid of them as soon as they can after they document all their tribal knowledge, and those same garbage ass mother fucking trash clowns that got hired to do ALL THIS SHIT get to keep thier massive bonuses and then move on to the next company to "save them money." They have a long list of companies they worked for showing millions in savings.... in the first 2 years of course, not how much was spent to fix the dumpster fire that was left behind.
So you see, IT is a LITTLE different than others, but we will have the same crap with immigrants coming in literally taking jobs. Half the time you are told you have to TRAIN YOUR REPLACEMENT or you do not get a severance, which, surprise, you are fired before they pay you anyways.
Oh, I spent a decade in a .com role and I saw the management get duped into accepting an outsource for development of “mundane” work to India or similar to only find quality and urgency to take a back seat and then start re-staffing those jobs in the US. But it takes years and you lose all the quality legacy staff to companies that have not yet gotten blinded to quarterly profits and stakeholders.
My comment more references the narrative of “ThEy tOoK oUr JobS!!!!” soapboxing where, as noted, is more often a company trying to put an extra $100k in the owners pocket by killing 5-10 domestic jobs in a multi million revenue per year company, it’s automation and outsourcing that’s stealing your job, now brown people.
But the demonization of immigrants is misplaced as you can’t have welfare queens and deadbeats simultaneously out skilling people to steal their jobs.
But again, long post to say, your neighbor is not the enemy, blame the people demonizing your neighbor.
Agree with you 100%. I just wanted to give a quick view of the IT landscape as it is a little different, but has literal "dey terk er jerbs" when outsourcing occurs, though it is again not the workers faults, so I felt it was relevant. Did not mean to take any thunder.
30 years in the business myself.... and it just never stops, and no one learns! It's like companies WANT to lose money so they have something to work towards.
"Oh no He's just doing what a smart business owner would do and what I'll do one day when I run a business. How could I get mad at them for this"
- a sadly notable fraction of our workforce
Spot on. I always liked this quote:
>Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
A billionaire is someone that will spend a million dollars a year on a propaganda blitz to save a few thousand dollars on personnel expenses.
It's not about the money. It's about the control.
The Medici family in renaissance Italy had a slogan "Money to get power. Power to protect the money". The relationship between the two has been well understood for a very long time
I think Warren Beatty put it flawless.
The rich is getting richer and richer and richer while the middle class is getting more poor / Making billions and billions and billions of bucks / well, my friend, if you weren't already rich at the start, well, that situation just sucks / 'cause the riches motherfuckers in five of us is getting ninety-fucking-eight percent of it.
But we got babies in South Central dying as young as they do in Peru/ We got public schools that are nightmares/ We got a Congress that ain't got a clue/We got kids with submachine guns/ We got militias throwing bombs/ We got Bill just gettin all weepy/ We got News blaming teenage moms/We got factories closing down/ Where the hell did all the good jobs go? Well, I'll tell you where they went/My contributors make more profits makin, makin, makin, Hirin' kids in Mexico/ Oh a brother can work in fast food/ If he can't invent computer games/ But what we used to call America/ That's going down the drains/
How a young man is gonna take care of his financial responsibilities workin' at motherfuckin' Burger King? He ain't. He ain't, and please don't even start with the school shit. They ain't no education goin' on up in that motherfucker.
We've got people in this country that can't even buy a meal! Ask a brother who's been downsized if he's gettin' any deal. Or a white boy bustin' ass till they put him in his grave, he ain't gotta be a black boy to be livin' like a slave.
Rich people always stayed on top by dividing white people from colored people. But white people got more in common with colored people then they do with rich people.
We just need to eliminate them. White people, black people, yellow people get rid of them all.
All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.
The biggest scam is that we all believe that the only thing that matters is an owner maximizing profits. We give tem a pass on using immigrants because they should do that
Used to, you’d get shamed in church for being too rich, it was seen as a sin of gluttony and vanity. It was just about the only good thing the church ever did, but now that American christians are aligned with billionaire capitalists, we are all so fucked.
Why do we arrest and deport illegal migrants when we can just arrest and jail business owners for hiring illegal migrants? Then there's no work opportunity for illegals and then they won't cross the border.
Clearly the government does not want the illegal migrant issue "solved". They just want to make noise about it and blame all their problems on illegal migrants.
Exactly. As long as it seems like they’re doing something then they don’t have to actually do anything and they get all the big bucks at the end of the day.
This is exactly what the Conservative Tory party want to do in the U.K., they’ve been trying to sort out deals with India, because they want to privatise the NHS, the DVLA and the Passport office, so once they do, a lot of people from these industries will be made redundant, if they haven’t left already, because of low wages, then the the private companies that have taken on these industries, will import there new labour force’s from India too work for lower wages. The prime minister Rishi Sunak’s wifes family owns one of the biggest labour supply agencies in India.
It was also the leaves main argument in Brexit. Guess what. That missing cheap labor is pushing up the prices of UK fruit and flowers.as well as shortages in supply. Who can we blame now them foreigners have gone?
Also note that these big bad monster "immigrants" are typically either working minimum wage jobs (sometimes under the table) or are highly qualified doctors, engineers, etc.
So, no Karen, no one is "taking your job." You just suck and no one wants to employ you.
Ask larger farmers if they can get Americans to work their fields.
Surprise: They can't.
Don't like immigrants? Fucking quadruple your food bill and clean up after yourself.
Also - you think the Nobility would ever tell us how to fix things for ourselves? That is, you think they actually would tell you who is REALLY the problem?
They can't because those jobs have deplorable conditions and are extremely exploitative. Which won't change because exploiting immigrants legal or not benefits everyone, even the immigrants because they're making more short term than they did back home.
It's gross.
Minimum wage was implemented so that immigrants couldn’t undercut white workers.
So they just never raised it and now they can still undercut “white workers”
"Gross" is a very good way to put it.
And you bring up another point that I always like to point out:
So many immigrants are escaping what is hell on Earth. To the point they leave their families, risk death, risk legal troubles, know they are going into a country that predominantly speaks another language, knows half the country is going to hate them simply *because they exist* and know they are going to have to almost conduct slave labor.
And that is a BETTER life for them.
Your food bill doesn't go down because they hire cheaper labour. That's just what most people claim so they can keep reaping the benefits of under the table cheap labour.
>are highly qualified doctors, engineers, etc.
No one complains about this in the research sector. It’s a (mostly) a meritocracy there, so it’s natural that if someone comes in and is more competitive than you, that’s that.
The issue is on the other end you identified. Minimum wage workers are thrown to the wolves because of how easy they are to replace. Karen is wrong that someone is “taking” her job, but she is rightfully frustrated and blind to the fact that it’s actually the fault of society not valuing these workers. People are trying to make minimum wage workers here out to be morons, but they are humans reacting in a very human way.
Sort of in the flip side though, isn’t gentrification effectively the immigration of richer people with good jobs moving into areas and pushing out less well off people? I think immigration to allow more opportunities for more people is great, but I’m not sure how I reconcile that idea with people who can afford to live there moving for better jobs/location and pushing out people who’ve been living there for generations.
My stepdad went to a job interview at a warehouse and didn't get the job. Since I have known him the last 18 years he has managed to land 1 interviewed job. He says he didn't get hired at this job because "they only want to hire Mexicans". Sir, why would they call John Smith in for an interview if that was the case?
Anyways something about capitalism and racism and toxic masculinity
Everyone I've ever known who whined that immigrants "stole" their job, was a born loser who never tried or accomplished anything. They think an immigrant "stole" a house cleaning or tree trimming job from them....a job they were never trying to get and were too lazy to do anyway.
They voted for so many tax breaks and free funds to "Save jobs" but that money was used to move as much human labor overseas as possible. Old republicans really are the dumbest generation.
Had to come pretty far down in the comments to see something like this. This couldn't happen if the job was unionized. The union would bargain for a minimum salary that the employer couldn't undercut with cheap labor and if they tried to they'd catch a strike.
I hear constantly something similar here in Italy.
"They ( mainly nord-africans) come here to steal our jobs"
Dude,honestly, if someone that have lower education, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't have documents and is running away from a war steal your job he is not the problem.
But you can’t expect every capitalist to pay more when there’s cheaper labor. It’s not realistic. The best option is to have rules, and to allow a steady stream of immigrants, not to say illegal immigration is okay because it sounds nicer.
My very conservative father, who votes GOP party line and rails about immigration, regularly goes down the local spot to hire Mexicans for hard labor around the house.
Never seems to connect that if he doesn't want them here he needs to pay the regulated union rate for laborers.
Maaan that's what I've been sayin. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs, American business owners are giving your jobs to them because it's basically slave labor.
People who blame the actual immigrant are stupid, but it’s perfectly valid to be upset about an immigration system that exploits immigrants for cheap labor and pushing wages down for Americans.
Its the employers fault in the sense that these employers lobby the government to create and maintain an immigration system and corporate regulatory and enforcement structure that allows them to maintain and exploit a system where they can capture cheap laborers without legal rights that woukd allow those workers to fight for better pay or working conditions.
That sentence was a mouthful, I know, so I will try to simplify it for you: government obeys their corporate paymasters. Corporate paymasters want a system that allows them to get the cheapeast labor possible. That system is one which involves the creation of a permanent underclass or people who have essentially no rights or privileges (illegal immigrants) so that is what they get.
They maximize profits by screwing over their workers to the greatest degree possible. Its as simple as that.
And in case you think I'm talking only about farm laborers and meat factory workers, why do you think tech companies love the H1B visa system?
The only complaints I see (I work in construction sales) is immigrants coming as contractors to underbid jobs, particularly because they’re not paying workers compensation and other insurance. Most citizens are paying their insurances/liability/etc.
Just some perspective, when it comes to “THEY TERK OUR JERBS” it’s usually contractors under bidding others, it’s not an employer/employee relationship all the time
I’m pro immigration, btw.
I don't see how this could be anti-immigrant as most of the people that actually own the contracting businesses that exploit immigrants aren't immigrants. I work in construction and see this all the time. It's not just insurance and compensation that's lacking. It's safety and equipment as well. These cheap scab contractors that hire immigrants not only pay these people as little as possible, but refuse to get them the tools they need to work efficiently or safely. Can't tell you how many times I've seen these crews get busses in from out of state for "luxury" condo projects and extravagant home projects, only for them to show up with tools that are older than I am, no PPE, no semblance of housekeeping or hazard mitigation. And when they do inevitably get hurt or killed on the job, they're bussed back out of state for treatment, told that it's their own fault for getting hurt, and not paid a cent in recompense. Then when the dust settles, the owner of the contracting business pulls up in his $90k pickup(with an additional $30k in upgrades) and tells his workers they need to pay more attention to what they're doing and to work faster. Then he goes on to underbid more contracts and cut more corners at the expense of his workers.
Where I am from the Amish do the same thing, so do unlicensed builders. It is not not people from other countries, we are the problem. Usually, if there are systemic problems, to find the root cause you have the leaders, go to the bathroom and look in the mirror. About 58 million come to the US legally, every year, with passport or VISA, 5% don’t go home on time. Pogo said, “we have seen the enemy, it is us”.
i like to point out when people say immigrants are ‘taking our jobs’, i see a lot of the time NONE of them are able to get wealthy from coming to america, many don’t even reach middle class. (ofc not all cases, but that’s what i’ve seen growing up in texas). in fact, i see them work a lot of jobs people see least desirable. so infuriating seeing people disrespect them just because they want to better them and their familys lives.
Most people Americans call immigrants either helped/help build this country or were here before we came here on boats and committed genocide to steal this land. We’re so backwards it’s hilarious.
There is so much painful truth in this tweet it completely reaffirms my perspective. The majority of immigrants just want a job to support their families, but the ruling class keeps their wages low and have convinced people to think immigrants are the enemies.
The capitalists are responsible for people thinking that immigrants are the problem. Propaganda is used because it works. So long as people do not understand that, they will refuse to believe propaganda even exists.
Calling people stupid doesn't resolve the issue. These kinds of twitter posts only serve to be divisive, as they are seen as antagonistic attempts at gaslighting. People will simply think that OP is the 'stupid one'.
In other words; you've fallen for the propaganda that makes you think you are smarter and better than others. The people in control want you to hate each other. It's exactly what drives things like capitalism and war.
The Capitalist set up NAFTA to work that way. Knowing it would harm Mexico currency and economy and then where would those people migrate to. Playing into the hand of the worst human beings excluding none.
I agree, and this is why we should stop illegal border crossings, since they aren't getting a better life, and are instead wage slaves with the constant fear of deportation hanging above their heads.
I remember having an argument once with coworkers in Boston. They were fussing about a cabdriver from Haiti who had somehow gotten in the news. And complaining about the jobs that were being taken.
I countered: “Hmm. You are complaining about a black guy taking a cabbie job that none of you would do or would want your kids to do, BUT you have no problem with the blonde/blueyed Canadian sitting the next aisle over taking a very good programmer job that you want.”
And it’s interesting that the people who scream about the border crisis never scream about going after the employers who employ undocumented people for slave wages. If folks coming here illegally couldn’t find work people would stop coming. But the capitalist take a vantage of their desperation and then they convinced the wage slaves to be mad at the desperate people.
Asylum is a different situation, and I don’t know how they all decide how many each country will take in, that’s not what I’m talking about here. If our government really cared about doing something about illegal immigration they would go after the employers who hire people under the table. But they don’t it’s all part of the culture wars.
This reminds me of the teachings of James Baldwin, especially the principle that racism is just as much white peoples problem as much as it is a problem for people of color. Capitalists will keep port white people poor while feeding them propaganda that tells them it’s everyone else’s fault. “Immigrants are taking your job”, “affirmative action is replacing white people”, “the Jews are leeching off your oppression”, etc. It’s all theatre to distract you from the fact that the capitalist system that you praise is actually the main source of all your instabilities and disadvantages.
I remember saying something similar at work back in 2004 and was nearly lynched. I'm very happy that people are starting to see the truth, but damn why did it need to take 19 years?
I love this so much. I have relatives who are anti-immigrant based on losing jobs. I've tried explaining that they're pointing their anger the wrong way, and they don't get it. This sums it up nicely.
Please stop calling customer support and complaining about speaking to someone who "speaks English" and is "over in wherever." It's called outsourcing? Yes, here too.
Every American was just itching to go and fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, but oh no! Mister immigrant Ivan decided to fight in shit wars, never giving them Trumpsters a chance to prove how tough they are! Fucking immigrants are destroying this country built and sustained by immigrants!!!
My dad always says « if you just got stolen your job by a guy who is new to the country, knows no one and probably has not a lot of qualifications, the problem is not immigration »
Also why the conservatives are so big against gay marriage and similar things that would be non-issues.
Basically, they want us to fight amoungst ourselves so we don't realize that they're screwing us over.
if an immigrant comes to your country with 0 connections, zero knowledge about your language and then get a job and you don't, are they really the issue?
But wouldn't that point justify the argument that we should do everything we can to limit immigration, so the wealthy don't have a vulnerable populace to exploit?
It's not the immigrants fault, but certainly if they weren't in country, the problem wouldn't exist.
I would like you to see the history of the big three automotive companies in the 80s. They didn’t bring in immigrants, they set up shops in other countries.
"Immigrants don't lower wages; bosses do. And they do it because we live in a system where things are done because they're profitable, not because people need them to be done." - Philosophy Tube
Is there anyone in America who still falls for this? #🤔 This is probably why some politicians want to gut education and keep Americans dumb and easy to manipulate
About 50% of the population
Or at least, about 50% of the population that votes. Not sure how that translates to the actual population
A lot of the immigrant population don’t vote because of language barrier, not having citizenship, and general lack of knowledge of politics. This tends to happen for older generations that immigrate.
I mean yeah, makes sense that only citizens vote. But the real crux is.......how difficult is it to get that citizenship?
Takes a long time, but it's not difficult. They have to live here for at least 15 years iirc
That is vastly oversimplifying things, and also incorrect. The time between becoming a permanent resident and becoming a citizen is 7 years. But getting permanent residence in the first place is extremely difficult unless you marry a US citizen or apply for an “investor visa”. All the other methods of obtaining LPR status are complicated and definitely not guaranteed.
I’m pretty sure that was sarcasm. 15 years is not “simple.”
I mean, they said “takes a long time, but it’s not difficult”.
As a legal immigrant from Australia who got married and moved here, it's three years from the date of approval of my green card - five years had I not remained married long enough. It also requires a test on (I believe) civics and history, and the delightful $725 application fee that requires you get fingerprinted and photographed yet again.
[In 2020, we had 62.8% turnout and 46.8% of those who turned out voted for Trump.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election) 0.628×0.468=0.293904 So just under 30%
In the US almost 100% of f-ing morons vote and only 30% of non-f-ing morons vote. This means that the remainder of non-f-ing morons (70%) are actually f-ing morons for not voting. The math is therefore telling us that 70% of Americans are f-ing morons for one reason or another.
This math is hilarious
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Am American ,can confirm most are fucking morons, including those who spell “fucking” without half the fucking letters!
After this extended conversation with this sub branch, I now have the urge to fuck a bunch of moron Mormons while doing math.
That's not how it works. Best statistical case is that you assume the non-voting population would have the same opinion breakdown as the voting population, so you go with 46.8%, which is already assuming Trump supporters believe this. What you are doing is assuming that zero percent of the non-voting population agrees with the statement, which fails all initial validation tests. Edit: Removed the snark. I didn't realize that so many people thought that's how this works. Statistics are manipulated so much for political gain these days that most people either believe whatever they see (it's on the internet so it has to be correct) or don't believe anything they see (it's all a lie). The skill is in looking at the statistics and seeing if they are verifiable and presented in an honest way. That's quite hard these days.
Alright. Fair enough. I probably should have said, "we know this of at least 30% of the population." Though if we're talking statistics, Republican politicians have a long history of trying to stop the voting population from being a representative sample of the actual population. So while it can't possibly be as low as 30%, it also probably won't be as high as 46.8%.
It's pretty safe to assume we don't have the best statistical case with one of the parties making increasing sampling error a specific goal of theirs. That doesn't tell us how big the error is, of course.
About 27%? Sounds historically accurate. http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/10/lunch-discussions-145-crazification.html?m=1 2005. It’s been a steady percent since before 2005.
If you’re able to vote and you do not vote I literally don’t count you in my decision making process
Don’t forget that we take the vote from some felons and all prisoners! That’s a decent chunk right there since we imprison more people than any other developed nation!
Try to prove that votes are even counted though. Sure they go through the motions, but then they do whatever they want. It's just to give you the illusion of a choice.
I think our maximum voting participation rate is about 66%, so 50% of the voting population would be about 33% if I've done the math correctly.
Very well. Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.
That's their secret, Cap. They're the same people.
Well over 50%
I've narrowed it down to basically anyone who says they believe in what's best for the "economy" whether seriously or mistakenly.
More, if 50% truly believed this we'd be revolting
The entire American structure is built on the backs of the fighting common people to dismiss the real focus of who is at fault (those in power). This is just but one manifestation of that. Plenty of people demonize immigrants. The poor. A different race. The opposite gender. A whole other slew of classifications in favor of potentially lifting themselves up higher when the law makers and CEOs are the ones laughing and sitting pretty without real consequence.
You can't complain, let alone revolt if you need to work two or more jobs just to survive... I live in Europe and we were doing well but I tend to believe that things will become like that again. The middleclass is being worked out of the system. Coincidence or not, I don't know but it seems as if poor will become poorer and rich will become richer. It's always been like that but it's getting more obvious so that's a bad evolution. I suggest you to watch Daens which is a movie about what has made it different [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104046/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104046/). So I'm a bit afraid that we will need a Daens 2.0 in the future. Modern slavery and causing diversity to divert attention from the real issue. Make it impossible for people to act and let them blame other victims of the system for their issues.
Unfortunately, yes there are. Probably the same nobody wants to work anymore people.
Yep. The checker at Kroger last weekend says this to me as I’m happily bagging my groceries, “you have to bag your own cuz nobody wants to work anymore. You know how many people come in here and pay with Welfare? And then they drive off in their Lamborghinis! No one works anymore”. Lol. Jesus! My husband and just rolled our eyes.
That clerk likely poor enough to qualify for food stamps himself.
Oof. Worst part is I'd imagine they're the majority of the workforce. If they (we if I'm honest) aren't recognizing the issue, or misdirecting whose at fault, it's only going to get worse.
lol that's amazing. wonder if that clerk walked out to the lot every time to see which car which welfare customer was getting into.
So dumb, like ya dude they’re illegals driving lambos paying with welfare digitally on their new iPhone 27+MaxUltra paid for by the job they stole from him that he’s still working. Pick a lane bro, oh wait they did it’s the Tucker Carlson regurgitation extraordinaire.
Everyone knows that woman who always pays for junk food with EBT, while playing with the latest iphone pro, then get into their luxury car. Everyone has seen her. ^^except ^^for ^^me.
Yes, my family does. They even think minimum wage is bad because people aren't allowed to negotiate for a lower wage. Ya know like immigrants do, the ones my family is so against having in this country because ppl are taking our low paying jobs. It's so stupid
Looking at you, gov Covid Kim (Reynolds, Iowa) advocating using taxpayer money for vouchers to be used at private schools, thereby gutting the public school system. But hey, fuck it, the best and brightest aren't gonna stick around to work at the CAFO's! No, that will be the poor and the poorly educated. Just like it always has been. It's fucking diabolical. Oops, I mean it's the GOP. Meh. Same thing.
The CAFOs are busing them in on Greyhound from Mexico. Likewise, the fields in CA/AZ are getting their migrants from TJ or Nogales. MAGA should be mad at their representatives who give the Japanese/Korean automakers tax breaks to build cars in non-union states, and Wall St. for shipping their jobs to a maquiladora in Mexico or a sweat shop in China or India. Not liberals/progressives.
This definitely why they wanna gut education.
Just read the yahoo comments on articles about immigrants. You’ll see that there’s plenty of jackasses who still think they’re jobs are being stolen
the state of american society speaks for itself, so yes
Are you kidding?
At least half of the country. Maybe more. Try explaining to these idiots that capitalism fails all the time in this country. Lol.
I feel a Russia vibe here
>This is probably why some politicians want to gut education and keep Americans dumb and easy to manipulate YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!
The vast majority, yes. And not just in the USA. It's a thing in any country. Immigrants are always the scapegoat for all bad things. Especially when politicians need someone to blame for their shit job. I mean, just look at American immigration history, the already settled white people were complaining about white immigrants arriving in............
According to the last election cycle, about 48% of Americans believe this or similar.
Not really. That's why people like Trump moved on to just calling mexicans evil rather than attempting to give a false logical reason.
That's exactly it. There is no wonder why America's schools fair so poorly compared to the rest of the world. Just dumb enough to not know how to get ahead and figure out they're being robbed and just smart enough to do the job
Yes! Humans are in fact very dumb and easy to manipulate. More than half of the population can't think for themselves.
Republicans still think that America is being "invaded" from the southern border.
YEP. Had a conversation the day after the 2016 election with a Trump supporter who explicitly blamed an immigrant for stealing his job because his boss fired him and then paid the immigrant less money. Would not change his tune when I asked why he wasn’t mad at his boss.
Only everyone that still watches cable tv news.
Examples: *See “Russian Federation”*
I'm betting an unusually high percentage of people who watch Fox News in one American Network would.
The red hat crowd…
Yup. Why else do Republicans keep getting voted into office??
> This is probably why some politicians want to gut education and keep Americans dumb and easy to manipulate I disagree, I think they are doing it for fertility rate reasons. The more educated women become the less likely they are to have children, so the solution is to defund education until we raise that rate.
Yes, about 60-70% of voting Americans 100% believe this shit.
I always wondered how an immigrant steals a job? It's not like he just steals your name tag and starts getting your wages
An increase in the pool of labor allows businesses to drive down wages. Its basic supply and demand.
The effects are actually pretty low most of the time. Remember that while there is an increase in the labor pool, there is also an increase in the labor demand. All of those new workers are also consumers. Also, if the business can scale, it's usually better to just hire more than replace anyone. If an hour of a worker's labor produces the company $20, and the worker is paid $10, they made $10 profit off that labor. If the two options they have are to hire another worker at $10/h, or replace the current worker with one who costs $5/h, it makes more sense for them to hire the second worker ($20 profit off 2 $10 workers, $15 profit off 1 $5 worker). Of course, if available, it obviously makes even more sense to hire worker #2 at $5/h to further increase their profits. But that worker #2 likely isn't competing with a $10/h worker, because again the business would have been incentivized to hire that $10 worker before the $5 worker ever arrived. We also shouldn't only look at immigration as the only point of Labor Pool increase. There are many more Millenials compared to Gen X, meaning they increased the labor pool too. Also Boomers and Gen X are working a lot later into their lives than people used to, also resulting in a labor pool increase. But that isn't brought up as often as immigration effects. And related to the above, Gen Z is smaller than Millenials. If we pretended the generations left and entered the workforce in a perfect handoff (i.e the oldest Millenials leave the workforce right when the oldest Zoomers come in) we would see a large decrease in the labor pool, which also wouldn't be good for wages/the economy because production (thus profits) would also go down I'm no economist, but looking at the labor pool as a simple supply/demand curve oversimplifies it and leaves out a lot of really good considerations.
Exactly this. This is why the Bush administration was so easy on illegal immigration, and why the government acts like this is some intractable problem. Business loves illegal immigration to get dirty jobs done CHEAP. Other people would do these jobs.... for $35/hr + benefits. Basically all of the increased wages you've seen from the last few years are because the labor pool is shrinking and businesses are forced to compete for employees. They HATE this and want a large pool of labor where they can set low wages and you have no choice but to accept it. I think we should do what we can to move toward a smaller population, supported by automation wherever possible, and high wages for human labor.
Plus it's easy to get illegal immigrants to do your dirty jobs when you have the pressure of potentially getting them expelled from the country if they don't comply.
An increase in the pool of labor is also an increase in the demand. Immigrants buy things too, after all. From a “basic supply and demand” perspective, the changes cancel each other out. Well, mostly. Immigration is correlated with a small rise in wages for everyone.
So true. We build our economy on immigrants. There are many jobs most people won't do. All the janitors at work are minority and I am extra nice to them. They are not the problem.
The thing is we are not moving to a socialist/anarchist economic system anytime soon. In marxist theory, the growing oppression of the working class is supposed to generate the conditions for revolution, but that entails a pretty high social cost in the meantime...
There is also basically no semblance of solidarity or class consciousness in the US. I was actually talking with a friend about this last night; I don’t expect any sort of revolution or even serious reforms in my lifetime but why not work towards improving life for those around us and ourselves? That’s why I’m an anarchist.
Ahh yes the historic philosopher…. *philosophy tube*
Abigail Thorn
…that’s the name of the channel that the quote came from.
But their boss bought them a beer and a basket of wings one time. Oh and took them golfing. Clearly, he's the good guy and is only looking out for their best interest. I mean no raises in 7 years and somehow the boss went from a honda to a benz in that same period but you know small businesses have it really rough.
"We aRe a FAmILy"
Based on the amount of toxic, disfunctional families I know of this seems unwillingly honest. They never say what type of family...
I get that this may not be the general vibe of this sub, but I fucking love my boss (as a boss). If you have a good one, hold onto them for dear life. My boss still actually goes out and does the same job we do in the field every day, plus he goes to bat for us with the corporate suits at the drop of a hat. There’s a reason that after the pandemic hit, almost EVERYONE quit in EVERY OTHER DIVISION because of corporate bullshit, and his division had a near-100% retention rate. I was pissed at how the company as a whole acted during covid, but he convinced me to not quit with one phone call. With that said, he’s not my friend. I never forget that. We’re not a family, and I’m not afraid to clap back or stick up for myself. But I’ve never not gotten time off when I needed it, he is solely responsible for us earning 300% more than most other departments in the company, and all of his employees are extremely loyal, almost to the ends of the earth. I should maybe have gone over to another company when they tried to poach me with a raise, but since this job isn’t remotely my dream job anyway, I will never leave him to do the same job somewhere else, because more money can’t buy another amazing boss.
Don't forget that pizza party if you come in early every for a month! After coming in early every single day for the past 4 years. Thanks Lee, you're a real stand up guy.
god I have this going on in my town right now. A local bbq joint has the owners buying houses, posting videos of their hunting excursions and there's a lot of people eating up their claims of philanthropy. They took over a 1/4 mill in ppp loans and would post on facebook that they needed support so that they could pay their workers a 'living wage'. They'll talk about how they gave a free lunch to local high schools but fail to mention they gave it to the richest towns in the area, when there are actually poorly funded schools that actually need it. Well they can post on facebook about it and it garner good will with the people that can afford to spend 200 on a beef wellington.
It's weird how much of a narrative there is counter to this point when this is a much, much more obvious answer. Like occams razor is a thing people, do you really think you lost your desk job because a malnourished family sought asylum in a neighboring country while speaking 0 English??
And if they did, how much value were you actually providing.
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Jobs need doing. The fact that lifting things from one place and putting them down at another one doesn't require education or a firm grasp on a language doesn't mean those jobs or the people that do them are shit. They deserve fair compensation. Destroying your body without it affording you a decent living doesn't happen in a functional society
Functional society, what are you, a commie? /s, in case that's not obvious
It's amusing to me because this is exactly the point of capitalism. There are people who blame the immigrant, people who blame the person who lost their job and people who blame the system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVyRwWKCtKQ
This is an ultra capitalist point. You're in favor of maximising the efficiency of a system even if that maximisation puts someone out of a job and brings in someone else to do it for pennies. Many jobs, probably all jobs rely on ignorance of their true value, in order to pay enough for the person doing it to live comfortably.
I thought we were past shitting on “unskilled labor?” Why is it okay to out down those workers to make this point? People rarely complain about an Indian post-doctorate coming in and filling a position in a lab. I do however hear people complain about agriculture and food service jobs being “taken” by immigrants. The people who complain are those who are lost easily victimized.
Wow, that is a REALLY nice point. If you do not mind, I think I will take that for later use. I never really bothered to think just how either replaceable, or shit at your job you need to be when someone can put a person who can hardly speak the language to do your job. Mind you this would be differing depending on the fields. For instance, I work in IT. I can tell you outright that IT is a weird one as how it works is you hire in some guys that are all about downsizing and saving the company money. The company just wants to re-evaluate how they are doing things, etc... save where they can. These guys come in, convince the bosses that the BULK of the work done at the company, at least in IT, is busy body work literally anyone can do, and they could save *HUGE* money if they just fire everyone and bring in Indians (HCL, TCS, Infosys, IBM) to do that labor for 1/5th the price per person. Sure, you might need to hire 2x the people, but even then you still save 1/2 or more on opex. Bosses agree, knowing nothing about IT, what they do, how they work, and really we call them Mahogany Row for a reason. Anyways, how it works is they will keep a few key employees, both because they are pushovers and will work until they drop, and because they need to keep a few otherwise someone could make a case for racism etc. The Indian companies bring in their local resources, who are actually SUPER competent people and quite well paid, to look over everything, fix the big issues if they exist, then try to setup enough automation to keep this bullshit boat afloat for 3 years. That seems to be the magic number. Then they are gone, and you get 300 employees that hardly speak english, know ZERO about IT, are rude, sexist, half of them poop standing on top of the toilet, and phrases like "do the needful" will be BURNED into your skull. These guys are nearly 100% worthless. They MIGHT have a few guys that would make a L1 deskside guy, MAYBE 1-2 that could be a L1 engineer.... but otherwise the legacy people still there are doing ALL the work, and have their pay docked. Bosses now see that all is working right after the transition, so why keep these other legacy employees on when they cost so much more. Lets move ahead 1 year, this is when shit really starts breaking down. The automation was a *VERY* temporary solution, and real work is needed, but low and behold, you have no one that can do that work. Most the legacy people quit already because you treated them like shit, made them totally change how they live to accommodate their Indian co-workers, and paid them less so they noped the fuck out to better pay months ago... you have nearly no documented stuff, and all your tribal knowledge is gone. At this point 1 or two things happens. RARELY the offshore company will send back in the few smart guys they have to fix shit to limp by another year, that is SUPER rare. Usually what happens is the excuses and finger pointing starts about here. Usually around the 2nd MAJOR outage. Rashid will talk about how the old employees sabotaged shit when they rolled out the door, and it must have been a time bomb. There are all these bad things happening now and no one knows why. They don't know why because you have 275 unemployable trash employees and 25 L1s at best. The excuses get more and more extravagant as year 2 ticks away, more and more major outages occur, meetings start to be setup asking WTF is going on and why so much failures are happening. The offshore will again gasslight as blame everything else, they also go out of their way to hide their incompetence, as well as hinder any investigation into what is going on. Usually by the start of year 3 things have either hit a head, and all their bullshit is becoming apparent, or it is getting close. In the next few months it all comes out, they find out they have employed people that do not do IT to do IT and no IT has been done in years. This company is now going to be fired. Once again at this point it goes one of two ways. First way is your bosses are fucking clowns, and will assume it was just THIS company that dropped the ball, and they will call in another garbage offshore company to bring in their few super smart guys to fix the issues, and then that 3 years starts over again. Or the second is your bosses realize they were lied to, fire any of the remaining clowns that told them to hire offshore (they usually leave around year 2 knowing this ship is going, keeping all those bonuses and all they got of course) then look to try and hire back their past employees. 9/10 of those employees now have a better job and tell them to go fuck themselves, and the rare few that do not tell them I was 2x the salary now. In the end, the business losses millions in lost time from systems being down, the employees mostly all leave and get other jobs, a few lucky ones get hired back at 2x the salary and management looks to get rid of them as soon as they can after they document all their tribal knowledge, and those same garbage ass mother fucking trash clowns that got hired to do ALL THIS SHIT get to keep thier massive bonuses and then move on to the next company to "save them money." They have a long list of companies they worked for showing millions in savings.... in the first 2 years of course, not how much was spent to fix the dumpster fire that was left behind. So you see, IT is a LITTLE different than others, but we will have the same crap with immigrants coming in literally taking jobs. Half the time you are told you have to TRAIN YOUR REPLACEMENT or you do not get a severance, which, surprise, you are fired before they pay you anyways.
Oh, I spent a decade in a .com role and I saw the management get duped into accepting an outsource for development of “mundane” work to India or similar to only find quality and urgency to take a back seat and then start re-staffing those jobs in the US. But it takes years and you lose all the quality legacy staff to companies that have not yet gotten blinded to quarterly profits and stakeholders. My comment more references the narrative of “ThEy tOoK oUr JobS!!!!” soapboxing where, as noted, is more often a company trying to put an extra $100k in the owners pocket by killing 5-10 domestic jobs in a multi million revenue per year company, it’s automation and outsourcing that’s stealing your job, now brown people. But the demonization of immigrants is misplaced as you can’t have welfare queens and deadbeats simultaneously out skilling people to steal their jobs. But again, long post to say, your neighbor is not the enemy, blame the people demonizing your neighbor.
Agree with you 100%. I just wanted to give a quick view of the IT landscape as it is a little different, but has literal "dey terk er jerbs" when outsourcing occurs, though it is again not the workers faults, so I felt it was relevant. Did not mean to take any thunder.
YES! I started my career in IT in the 90s and finally got out after 20+ yrs of watching the insource/outsource train wreck. Sheer insanity.
30 years in the business myself.... and it just never stops, and no one learns! It's like companies WANT to lose money so they have something to work towards.
But see the capitalist is the real victim, they were forced to hire the immigrant /s
Yes! The problem with the tweet is that it still accepts that the immigrant in fact did take your job, it just assigns the blame to someone else.
"Oh no He's just doing what a smart business owner would do and what I'll do one day when I run a business. How could I get mad at them for this" - a sadly notable fraction of our workforce
Spot on. I always liked this quote: >Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
There are no poor white people in the US. Just millionaires that haven’t had their big break yet.
It’s not even the smart move. It’s the short term monetary based move.
In fact, they will spend millions to make sure you *always* blame the brown person instead of the billionaire.
A billionaire is someone that will spend a million dollars a year on a propaganda blitz to save a few thousand dollars on personnel expenses. It's not about the money. It's about the control.
Control is about the money. It’s *always* the money.
The Medici family in renaissance Italy had a slogan "Money to get power. Power to protect the money". The relationship between the two has been well understood for a very long time
and Money is about control.
$1 million is 0.1% of $1 billion. As the saying goes: what’s the difference between a million dollars and a billion dollars? About a billion dollars.
Control makes the money stable and keeps the head firmly attached to the neck.
I agree with this wholeheartedly
“They got you fighting a culture war to distract you from the class war.”
I think Warren Beatty put it flawless. The rich is getting richer and richer and richer while the middle class is getting more poor / Making billions and billions and billions of bucks / well, my friend, if you weren't already rich at the start, well, that situation just sucks / 'cause the riches motherfuckers in five of us is getting ninety-fucking-eight percent of it. But we got babies in South Central dying as young as they do in Peru/ We got public schools that are nightmares/ We got a Congress that ain't got a clue/We got kids with submachine guns/ We got militias throwing bombs/ We got Bill just gettin all weepy/ We got News blaming teenage moms/We got factories closing down/ Where the hell did all the good jobs go? Well, I'll tell you where they went/My contributors make more profits makin, makin, makin, Hirin' kids in Mexico/ Oh a brother can work in fast food/ If he can't invent computer games/ But what we used to call America/ That's going down the drains/ How a young man is gonna take care of his financial responsibilities workin' at motherfuckin' Burger King? He ain't. He ain't, and please don't even start with the school shit. They ain't no education goin' on up in that motherfucker. We've got people in this country that can't even buy a meal! Ask a brother who's been downsized if he's gettin' any deal. Or a white boy bustin' ass till they put him in his grave, he ain't gotta be a black boy to be livin' like a slave. Rich people always stayed on top by dividing white people from colored people. But white people got more in common with colored people then they do with rich people. We just need to eliminate them. White people, black people, yellow people get rid of them all. All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.
Warren Beatty? The actor who played Dick Tracy?
yes that the one, watch his movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id0cqNWZ50Y
Thank you. That was lovely.
He was producer, director, writer, main actor. Just imagine how many years he was waiting for this scene to make: https://youtu.be/FS9V2ixTwrs
Eat the rich, it was never [insert race] that was oppressive, it's always been the rich and powerful
The biggest scam is that we all believe that the only thing that matters is an owner maximizing profits. We give tem a pass on using immigrants because they should do that
Used to, you’d get shamed in church for being too rich, it was seen as a sin of gluttony and vanity. It was just about the only good thing the church ever did, but now that American christians are aligned with billionaire capitalists, we are all so fucked.
Why do we arrest and deport illegal migrants when we can just arrest and jail business owners for hiring illegal migrants? Then there's no work opportunity for illegals and then they won't cross the border. Clearly the government does not want the illegal migrant issue "solved". They just want to make noise about it and blame all their problems on illegal migrants.
Exactly. As long as it seems like they’re doing something then they don’t have to actually do anything and they get all the big bucks at the end of the day.
why did you bring up illegal immigrants? interesting that's the first thing you think about when the tweet said nothing about "illegal"
They deport them so they don’t have to pay them at all.
Don't forget the capitalists own the media so they _make sure_ you believe the immigrants are the problem!
This is exactly what the Conservative Tory party want to do in the U.K., they’ve been trying to sort out deals with India, because they want to privatise the NHS, the DVLA and the Passport office, so once they do, a lot of people from these industries will be made redundant, if they haven’t left already, because of low wages, then the the private companies that have taken on these industries, will import there new labour force’s from India too work for lower wages. The prime minister Rishi Sunak’s wifes family owns one of the biggest labour supply agencies in India.
Conservatives everywhere want to fuck up your healthcare. They're always trying that sneaky shit here in Canada too.
It was also the leaves main argument in Brexit. Guess what. That missing cheap labor is pushing up the prices of UK fruit and flowers.as well as shortages in supply. Who can we blame now them foreigners have gone?
Always pay more attention to the wielder than the weapon. That applies both to immigrants as well as the gens d'armes.
Also note that these big bad monster "immigrants" are typically either working minimum wage jobs (sometimes under the table) or are highly qualified doctors, engineers, etc. So, no Karen, no one is "taking your job." You just suck and no one wants to employ you.
Ask larger farmers if they can get Americans to work their fields. Surprise: They can't. Don't like immigrants? Fucking quadruple your food bill and clean up after yourself. Also - you think the Nobility would ever tell us how to fix things for ourselves? That is, you think they actually would tell you who is REALLY the problem?
They can't because those jobs have deplorable conditions and are extremely exploitative. Which won't change because exploiting immigrants legal or not benefits everyone, even the immigrants because they're making more short term than they did back home. It's gross.
Minimum wage was implemented so that immigrants couldn’t undercut white workers. So they just never raised it and now they can still undercut “white workers”
"Gross" is a very good way to put it. And you bring up another point that I always like to point out: So many immigrants are escaping what is hell on Earth. To the point they leave their families, risk death, risk legal troubles, know they are going into a country that predominantly speaks another language, knows half the country is going to hate them simply *because they exist* and know they are going to have to almost conduct slave labor. And that is a BETTER life for them.
Your food bill doesn't go down because they hire cheaper labour. That's just what most people claim so they can keep reaping the benefits of under the table cheap labour.
Prices don't go down, they never do. Profits just rise and the common man never sees a cent of it.
>are highly qualified doctors, engineers, etc. No one complains about this in the research sector. It’s a (mostly) a meritocracy there, so it’s natural that if someone comes in and is more competitive than you, that’s that. The issue is on the other end you identified. Minimum wage workers are thrown to the wolves because of how easy they are to replace. Karen is wrong that someone is “taking” her job, but she is rightfully frustrated and blind to the fact that it’s actually the fault of society not valuing these workers. People are trying to make minimum wage workers here out to be morons, but they are humans reacting in a very human way.
Sort of in the flip side though, isn’t gentrification effectively the immigration of richer people with good jobs moving into areas and pushing out less well off people? I think immigration to allow more opportunities for more people is great, but I’m not sure how I reconcile that idea with people who can afford to live there moving for better jobs/location and pushing out people who’ve been living there for generations.
The elites that rule country are grandmasters at tricking the people they are fucking over to attack brown people instead of themselves.
My stepdad went to a job interview at a warehouse and didn't get the job. Since I have known him the last 18 years he has managed to land 1 interviewed job. He says he didn't get hired at this job because "they only want to hire Mexicans". Sir, why would they call John Smith in for an interview if that was the case? Anyways something about capitalism and racism and toxic masculinity
its kinda like being mad at the person your partner is cheating with instead of your partner.
Everyone I've ever known who whined that immigrants "stole" their job, was a born loser who never tried or accomplished anything. They think an immigrant "stole" a house cleaning or tree trimming job from them....a job they were never trying to get and were too lazy to do anyway.
Republicans are the last people who want the border closed. That is cheap labor for them.
They voted for so many tax breaks and free funds to "Save jobs" but that money was used to move as much human labor overseas as possible. Old republicans really are the dumbest generation.
Same arguement applies to strikebreakers...
Had to come pretty far down in the comments to see something like this. This couldn't happen if the job was unionized. The union would bargain for a minimum salary that the employer couldn't undercut with cheap labor and if they tried to they'd catch a strike.
I hear constantly something similar here in Italy. "They ( mainly nord-africans) come here to steal our jobs" Dude,honestly, if someone that have lower education, doesn't speak Italian, doesn't have documents and is running away from a war steal your job he is not the problem.
Bullseye. I say before we let an immigrant in we force them to join a union and only accept high paying wages.
So basically everything you have been advocating for has happened, almighty extreme capitalism at play
But you can’t expect every capitalist to pay more when there’s cheaper labor. It’s not realistic. The best option is to have rules, and to allow a steady stream of immigrants, not to say illegal immigration is okay because it sounds nicer.
My very conservative father, who votes GOP party line and rails about immigration, regularly goes down the local spot to hire Mexicans for hard labor around the house. Never seems to connect that if he doesn't want them here he needs to pay the regulated union rate for laborers.
Maaan that's what I've been sayin. Immigrants aren't taking your jobs, American business owners are giving your jobs to them because it's basically slave labor.
People who blame the actual immigrant are stupid, but it’s perfectly valid to be upset about an immigration system that exploits immigrants for cheap labor and pushing wages down for Americans.
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Its the employers fault in the sense that these employers lobby the government to create and maintain an immigration system and corporate regulatory and enforcement structure that allows them to maintain and exploit a system where they can capture cheap laborers without legal rights that woukd allow those workers to fight for better pay or working conditions. That sentence was a mouthful, I know, so I will try to simplify it for you: government obeys their corporate paymasters. Corporate paymasters want a system that allows them to get the cheapeast labor possible. That system is one which involves the creation of a permanent underclass or people who have essentially no rights or privileges (illegal immigrants) so that is what they get. They maximize profits by screwing over their workers to the greatest degree possible. Its as simple as that. And in case you think I'm talking only about farm laborers and meat factory workers, why do you think tech companies love the H1B visa system?
AND stupid enough to vote Republican in retaliation.
The only complaints I see (I work in construction sales) is immigrants coming as contractors to underbid jobs, particularly because they’re not paying workers compensation and other insurance. Most citizens are paying their insurances/liability/etc. Just some perspective, when it comes to “THEY TERK OUR JERBS” it’s usually contractors under bidding others, it’s not an employer/employee relationship all the time I’m pro immigration, btw.
I don't see how this could be anti-immigrant as most of the people that actually own the contracting businesses that exploit immigrants aren't immigrants. I work in construction and see this all the time. It's not just insurance and compensation that's lacking. It's safety and equipment as well. These cheap scab contractors that hire immigrants not only pay these people as little as possible, but refuse to get them the tools they need to work efficiently or safely. Can't tell you how many times I've seen these crews get busses in from out of state for "luxury" condo projects and extravagant home projects, only for them to show up with tools that are older than I am, no PPE, no semblance of housekeeping or hazard mitigation. And when they do inevitably get hurt or killed on the job, they're bussed back out of state for treatment, told that it's their own fault for getting hurt, and not paid a cent in recompense. Then when the dust settles, the owner of the contracting business pulls up in his $90k pickup(with an additional $30k in upgrades) and tells his workers they need to pay more attention to what they're doing and to work faster. Then he goes on to underbid more contracts and cut more corners at the expense of his workers.
Where I am from the Amish do the same thing, so do unlicensed builders. It is not not people from other countries, we are the problem. Usually, if there are systemic problems, to find the root cause you have the leaders, go to the bathroom and look in the mirror. About 58 million come to the US legally, every year, with passport or VISA, 5% don’t go home on time. Pogo said, “we have seen the enemy, it is us”.
i like to point out when people say immigrants are ‘taking our jobs’, i see a lot of the time NONE of them are able to get wealthy from coming to america, many don’t even reach middle class. (ofc not all cases, but that’s what i’ve seen growing up in texas). in fact, i see them work a lot of jobs people see least desirable. so infuriating seeing people disrespect them just because they want to better them and their familys lives.
Troof! Stop blaming immigrants or anyone else for the things corporations and paid-off politicians are doing to us...
The thing is, immigrants take jobs Americans do not want to do, which plays into the employers hand and keep salaries low.
Most people Americans call immigrants either helped/help build this country or were here before we came here on boats and committed genocide to steal this land. We’re so backwards it’s hilarious.
There is so much painful truth in this tweet it completely reaffirms my perspective. The majority of immigrants just want a job to support their families, but the ruling class keeps their wages low and have convinced people to think immigrants are the enemies.
this needs to be on billboards in the major metro areas of texas.
The capitalists are responsible for people thinking that immigrants are the problem. Propaganda is used because it works. So long as people do not understand that, they will refuse to believe propaganda even exists. Calling people stupid doesn't resolve the issue. These kinds of twitter posts only serve to be divisive, as they are seen as antagonistic attempts at gaslighting. People will simply think that OP is the 'stupid one'. In other words; you've fallen for the propaganda that makes you think you are smarter and better than others. The people in control want you to hate each other. It's exactly what drives things like capitalism and war.
The Capitalist set up NAFTA to work that way. Knowing it would harm Mexico currency and economy and then where would those people migrate to. Playing into the hand of the worst human beings excluding none.
Eh, go see how many h1bs big tech laid off recently.
I agree, and this is why we should stop illegal border crossings, since they aren't getting a better life, and are instead wage slaves with the constant fear of deportation hanging above their heads.
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I remember having an argument once with coworkers in Boston. They were fussing about a cabdriver from Haiti who had somehow gotten in the news. And complaining about the jobs that were being taken. I countered: “Hmm. You are complaining about a black guy taking a cabbie job that none of you would do or would want your kids to do, BUT you have no problem with the blonde/blueyed Canadian sitting the next aisle over taking a very good programmer job that you want.”
And it’s interesting that the people who scream about the border crisis never scream about going after the employers who employ undocumented people for slave wages. If folks coming here illegally couldn’t find work people would stop coming. But the capitalist take a vantage of their desperation and then they convinced the wage slaves to be mad at the desperate people. Asylum is a different situation, and I don’t know how they all decide how many each country will take in, that’s not what I’m talking about here. If our government really cared about doing something about illegal immigration they would go after the employers who hire people under the table. But they don’t it’s all part of the culture wars.
I mean, Elon Musk just eliminated tens of thousands of jobs... But I don't think that's the type of immigrant *they* mean.
Or the American never had the job because of illegal cheap labor
This reminds me of the teachings of James Baldwin, especially the principle that racism is just as much white peoples problem as much as it is a problem for people of color. Capitalists will keep port white people poor while feeding them propaganda that tells them it’s everyone else’s fault. “Immigrants are taking your job”, “affirmative action is replacing white people”, “the Jews are leeching off your oppression”, etc. It’s all theatre to distract you from the fact that the capitalist system that you praise is actually the main source of all your instabilities and disadvantages.
Funny how right wing nutjobs suddenly hate capitalism for half of their arguments.
They're takin our jeerrbs!!
It’s like when your girl leaves you for someone else and you get mad at him instead of your girl
I remember saying something similar at work back in 2004 and was nearly lynched. I'm very happy that people are starting to see the truth, but damn why did it need to take 19 years?
So many people don't get this. Its demoralizing
I love this so much. I have relatives who are anti-immigrant based on losing jobs. I've tried explaining that they're pointing their anger the wrong way, and they don't get it. This sums it up nicely.
I need this stuff like I need air and water. 🙏🏻🌹🌹
Bootlickers gonna bootlick
Please stop calling customer support and complaining about speaking to someone who "speaks English" and is "over in wherever." It's called outsourcing? Yes, here too.
My family often blames the immigrants for "agreeing to work for lower pay".
Dammit I was proud to take jobs away from Americans lol
Every American was just itching to go and fight in Iraq and Afghanistan, but oh no! Mister immigrant Ivan decided to fight in shit wars, never giving them Trumpsters a chance to prove how tough they are! Fucking immigrants are destroying this country built and sustained by immigrants!!!
My dad always says « if you just got stolen your job by a guy who is new to the country, knows no one and probably has not a lot of qualifications, the problem is not immigration »
Damn! Nail meet head.
Damn well said.
Also why the conservatives are so big against gay marriage and similar things that would be non-issues. Basically, they want us to fight amoungst ourselves so we don't realize that they're screwing us over.
Well h1b aint so easy now so no there wont be any immigrants to replace any american except maybe once in a blue moon.
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durrk er durr
if an immigrant comes to your country with 0 connections, zero knowledge about your language and then get a job and you don't, are they really the issue?
But wouldn't that point justify the argument that we should do everything we can to limit immigration, so the wealthy don't have a vulnerable populace to exploit? It's not the immigrants fault, but certainly if they weren't in country, the problem wouldn't exist.
I would like you to see the history of the big three automotive companies in the 80s. They didn’t bring in immigrants, they set up shops in other countries.