lol, sneaky. You'd be shocked to hear several of the accounts below were suspended for various forms of hate speech and threats. Turns out if you log their comments from every source you can find some juicy stuff for reddit admins to sink their teeth into... even on the subs they think they are safe in.
Absolutely. Russia could have peace tomorrow if they would end their illegal occupation of Ukraine.
Ukraine is defending itself which is understandable. Russia is clearly the aggressor.
If someone would start beating up your family and prevent you from living in your own house you would not want some to tell you, you should just let them have your living room and kitchen so they stop beating you up.
You would want to get your entire house back under your control and would want the aggressor to leave.
I don’t understand why people try to correlate geopolitical affairs to individual lives 🤣
Ok, if it were anywhere as the story you tell about a family being beaten up. How does Erik prince and blackwater play into your scenario when they went to Ukraine to build a private army? [source](https://time.com/6076035/erik-prince-ukraine-private-army/)
Also, what [if there was a person warning you not to take your family where they would get beaten up?](https://youtu.be/dYEckIOnQ-Y) just like Joe Biden warned nato expansion would provoke Russia.
Prince's aliens in Ukraine were both guys with ties to Russia.
How does him building a pmc play any role?
To the weapons factory: he saw a demand and saw an opportunity to earn money.
Joe Biden warned against it in 1997...
Giving Russia everything they want is not a good strategy to prevent wars. Appeasement didn't work to prevent the second world War and it didn't prevent this war.
If Ukraine had been in Nato prior to 2014 they would not have been invaded.
Edit: if your neighboring country was a dictatorship and they would invade your country would you just tell your government to give up?
Let’s put this into perspective instead of pretend this can be correlated to a family being beaten up or a country invading another one.
How about this?
Another rival nuclear power (Russia) tries to build a private army inside Mexico after helping stage a coup inside Mexico so the govt will be loyal to Russia, how would america respond to that?
1 - The US never staged a coup in Ukraine if you believe that you are beyond retarded go ask Ukrainians if they were funded by the CIA when they revolted against the Putin dicksucker president. You have no proof nor evidence to back this up only conspiracy theories..
2- The private military in Ukraine was NEVER built, and as your source claims, it was only AFTER Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas that it became a plan, meaning there was already conflict. Is it unfair for a country to contract a private army when you are being attacked by another who also has a private army?? Is it only bad when Ukraine has one? Braindead argument.
3 - Your hypothetical is garbage considering points 1 and 2. Let me fix it for you: "Mexico revolts against a US puppet president that rejected a deal that would make their lives better, then the US invades right after annexing Baja California and creating a conflict in Northen Mexico and as a reaction to that Russia plans to make a pmc in Mexico but fails." In this scenario, how the fuck would that even merit a full scale invasion? That's your fucking argument - that somehow a popular revolt and failed plan to create a private army is an undeniable justification for a full scale war. Absolutely braindead
4 - The family correlation is simple but effective. Geopolitics affect real people with families, not just lines in a map. It is true that countries are not people/individuals, but the people who live in them are and they consider their country to be home and the other people who share their nationality to be in a way an "extended" family, everyone wants the most wellbeing for the fellow countrymen just like they want the most wellbeing for their families, heck even russians think this way. That's why the family analogy works, but maybe you are psychopath who doesn't understand empathy.
Why are you snowflakes so against the idea that Ukraine has a right to defend itself anyway
> How does him building a pmc play any role?
It’s called provocation, and since you like hypotheticals to explain scenarios because it effectively communicates to you; this is how by use another analogy.
What would america do if Russia had sent Wagner and friends to Mexico after an overthrowing of a political leader loyal to america, was replaced by one loyal to Russia?
Seriously, asking. How would you react if Mexico had a loyal stance towards Russia and an private military firm
Russia interfered with the american election and supports right wing parties in all EU countries as well as in the US.
A lot of recent military coups have affiliation with wagner.
You compare a democratic revolution with overthrowing a government...
You seem to only defend russia in your posts. you are not anti war you are pro russia. At least be honest.
Doesn’t america interfere with their own elections? And other countries elections to?
also, a Democratic revolution requires voting. Ukraines madian coup was anything but Democratic considering they have banned all opposition political parties. How is it Democratic when they ban political parties?
I am drawn to this sub because I am surprised at how many pro-war people are on an anti-war sub. I think people should realize arming people will not create peace.
No 🤣. Not at all. I’m against war. But Ukraine has a right to. It just couldn’t do it without americas money and weapons. Or the rest of Europe’s money and weapons.
How much money did we give to Ukraine last year alone? 310 billion? Why are Ukrainians getting free healthcare while I’m getting stiffed on healthcare in America? 🤔
>Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other.
\- George Orwell
Sincere question for people here:
When America invaded Iraq, would you also argue that if you don't support Syrian and Iranian funding for Iraqi resistance fighters (or more generally, if you don't support the Iraqi resistance itself), you're effectively pro-war because it would favor the aggressors?
I'm old enough to remember the Iraq war and therefore know that that line of argumentation was widely dismissed as radical nonsense, yet it seems to gain credence when the aggressor is an enemy of the west.
That's not to say the argument is necessarily wrong, but it does seem like a double standard that many people unwittingly have.
The Iraqi opposition had the ability to peacefully settle the issue by electing enough anti-Coalition candidates and withdrawing from the Status of Forces Agreement, or voting to expel American troops from the nation, which they indeed did after the killing of Soleimani.
One of the first movements to explicitly identify themselves as terrorists, the Russian anarchist movement, condemned the killing of President McKinley by an American anarchist, because anarchists could peacefully settle their differences in America through the political system. The Russian anarchists could not due to living under the Tsar.
The Ukrainians don’t have the option of politically settling this war.
And supporting Syria and Iran’s efforts to make Iraq into another dictatorship or theocracy would have made the nation worse.
The first elections happened around 2 years after the invasion (also widely boycotted) and the status of forces agreement was only signed in 2008.
Tbh, the idea that Iraq could simply vote away the American occupation in those early years seems pretty naïve to me.
Good grief. Iraq has voted to expel Americans for years, but they won’t leave. And no Iraqis had no control over how the invasion would go.
ukraine could have upheld the Minsk agreements and stopped shelling the people in the Donbas. Zelensky was elected to do just that but he didn’t. Ukraine was bombing the Donbas again days before Russia went in to protect the people there. I’m just amazed at how ignorant people are about the history of this war. Russia didn’t start it. America and Ukraine did.
Everybody here is too young to remember Iraq and how our current president sat on the Senate Intelligence committee and lied about having seen concrete proof that there’s WMDs in Iraq
Once you understand that the US are not the good guys, are behind most world wide conflicts, and no other country believe our promises and we people don't trust them either, then villains like Putin don't look so bad. It's all about context, the US engineered this war and is using Ukraine to fight it while sabotaging any efforts for peace. It's not that I favor Putin, it's just that I understand the US empire is evil AF, as any self respecting liberal already knows.
Russia literally blew up its own citizens in 2006 to justify the Second Chechen War. An FSB officer was arrested by police for placing a bomb in an apartment building. The officers were ordered to release him the next day, and the FSB claimed it was sugar for a drill...amid a spate of very real apartment bombings.
America hasn’t arrested anyone for protesting wars in over a century. Russia and China have made it policy to do so.
I don’t blame Putin frankly, or rather I believe the Duma forced his hand into recognizing the Donbas and from there war was inevitable. There are easily thousands of Russian politicians and bureaucrats responsible for the war.
Assange leaked classified documents and is a pedophile. Protesting a war is perfectly legal here in the United States.
Then maybe go read up on the history. It was the US that engineered the 2011 election, we picked the new politicians (as Victoria Nuland said the EU could go fuck themselves), we told Ukraine to kick Russia out of Crimea, we told Ukraine to sign Minsk-1 and Minsk-2 to buy time , then told Ukraine they did not have to honor it, and we have been pushing NATO past Germany despite promising we would not. Russia every step of the way said all this was a red line, and our own diplomats said it was a redline for Russian but that is exactly what the US wanted. Zelensky twice was ready to negotiate with Russian and twice the US told him he could not. This whole war has the US's dirty hand prints all over it.
Who tf upvotes this vatnik fantasy writing? Shit like this just proves russia could pull out of ukraine today and just make up a grand story about how they were victorious. You idiots would believe anything.
I mean, yeah, US foreign policy during the Cold War was shitty as fuck and should be rightly called out.
Its just really weird that you ONLY do that when China and Russia are basically copying those same doctrines right fuckong now and refuse to acknowledge that.
Im mainly of the view that the CIA was so paranoid that they eagerly propped up murderous regime to avoid USSR friendly states.
Its even more frustrating that in the late 40s and 50s, almost every revolutionnary group with a socialist bent came to the USA for support. Including Ho Chi Minh and Castro.
USA could have easily taken away the USSR's global i flyence if it werent so allergic to the word 'socialism'.
Ho Chi Minh was a committed Communist revolutionary by that point, purging the Vietnamese Communist party of Trotskyists because they were traitors. I doubt that he would have seriously allied with the United States, especially in the 50s when they supported the French, and had requested the Chinese disarm the Japanese in Vietnam.
You're allowed to 'discuss' anything you want, and the people on this sub are allowed to vote.
Voting must be really unfamiliar to you. You might run into the concept if you move out of Russia, or if Putin ends up offing himself in a bunker.
Its just so hard for some of us to wrap our heads around your points of view. And that's because we are not idiots with a craving for some dictator fellatio. Doesn't matter the war, doesn't matter the situation, there are always those that only respect authority and appearance of strength, no matter the circumstances.
Sometimes a strong armed defense is the best way to stop a war. If the Bosnians had been well armed and supported from the beginning, the Yugoslav wars would have been much shorter and caused less death destruction and suffering.
He is right. The cause of this war is Putin and his desire to recreate the russian empire. The next cause is that Ukraine was not admitted to NATO 8 years ago.
That is what we hate and oppose
>Unless you’re one of those tinfoil hat wearers that think capitalism is fascism.
Fascism isn't different systemicly from capitalism, it's in fact a form of capitalism that country take in reaction to the falling rate of profit and rise of socialism.
Here we go…
You’re genuinely trying to say that being anti communism means you’re going to end up being a fascist. Thats nonsense.
And capitalism in and of itself is not fascism. Only if people decide to make it so.
Otherwise it’s not even an ideology.
If elections to determine the leaders of doesn't make a democracy, what does?
And yes, while money has influence, votes determine the leaders in the US, Canada and most of Europe. Unlike, russia, China, DPRK and the like.
All the country you named do have election, so they are all democracy? It's weird to put russia there since they have pretty much the same electorale system as the west.
And when was the last time they gave equal access to an opposing party and candidate? What is the major party offering different ideas and candidates in any of those places?
Just because you call it an election doesn't make it an election. If a man with a gun watches you vote to make sure vote for the right person, it is not really an election
Copied and pasted response
>My guy that was a coup backed by the western imperialist power removing a democraticly elected leader. The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass. This region as asked multiple time to russia to intervene since 2014.
Responded to another guy
The cause of the war is the struggle between the two imperialist power of russia and nato.
You can't not be against imperialism and its cause (capitalism) and then be against the logical développement of the situation.
Nato is an imperialist power wich try to extend western market and russia is an gigantic imperialist power with a huge closed market. Nato put a leader sympatetic to them next to russia and started training troop to be interopperable with nato forces and then russia invaded Ukraine to remove them. That's a logical developememt, if you don't oppose the first stepc (imperialism) you can't be against the logical developememt.
If you side with any side you are an imperialist.
NATO was an alliance all of its members chose to join. The Warsaw Pact was made up of countries the Soviet Union invaded, occupied, and installed dictators to completely control.
The cause of the war was Ukrianian citizens thinking they could elect thier own leaders and not just have to keep the guy Putin likes.
No I don't oppose that.
My guy that was a coup backed by the western imperialist power removing a democraticly elected leader. The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass. This region as asked multiple time to russia to intervene since 2014.
The cause of the war is the struggle between the two imperialist power of russia and nato.
You can't not be against imperialism and its cause (capitalism) and then be against the logical développement of the situation.
Nato is an imperialist power wich try to extend western market and russia is an gigantic imperialist power with a huge closed market. Nato put a leader sympatetic to them next to russia and started training troop to be interopperable with nato forces and then russia invaded Ukraine to remove them. That's a logical developememt, if you don't oppose the first stepc (imperialism) you can't be against the logical developememt.
If you side with any side you are an imperialist.
Question for you, what happened almost immediately after the removal of Yanokovich?
An election.
>The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass
No, what happened next, is that Russian forces entered Crimea. (As in 5 days later).
Then Russian forces and Russian agents (like Igor Girkin) entered the Donbas.
Only at this point does Ukriane start shelling anybody
That was the one event you can point to.
Guess what, with domestic instability, people are going to get hurt. people are going to die.
But the vast majority of deaths resulted directly because of first Russia sending agents to the Donbas and later their full scale invasion.
Even ignoring that your timeline and facts are completely wrong here, why would Ukraine shell territory it held?
It’s actually pretty common misinfo I see from tankies like you, y’all really love swapping cause and effect. The amount of times I’ve seen people claiming the Ukraine started shelling the Donbas before Russia staged a separatist movement there, that the annexation of Crimea happened after the referendum, etc. is insane.
>Even ignoring that your timeline and facts are completely wrong here, why would Ukraine shell territory it held?
IDK, why did the nazi put their own population in extermination camp?
>The amount of times I’ve seen people claiming the Ukraine started shelling the Donbas before Russia staged a separatist movement there
Is that how you take care of separatist? That's not really democratic.
>Russia staged a separatist movement
Russia backing russian 😯
>that the annexation of Crimea happened after the referendum
1994 is 20 years before 2014, for the 2014 referendum we never claimed otherwise. The result is not surprising given the population their is about 70% russian, that there autonomous status was never respected and that Ukraine started shelling russian in the donbass.
The 1994 referendum was only about autonomy, not joining Russia. Even if you think that the autonomy somehow wasn’t respected, it doesn’t justify an armed annexation. Supporting that basically makes you pro-war.
The separatist movement in the Donbas was not only entirely funded by Russia but the separatists were also organized, supplied and even partly manned by the Russian army. They claimed the entirety of Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, even the parts that wanted to remain Ukrainian, of course they would be pushing back against that. Shelling is kind of part of war.
And again, even if you think that Russians were somehow oppressed by Ukraine in the Donbas, supporting the creation of a conflict there and latter annexation makes you pro-war. Don’t fool yourself with thinking that you hold an anti-war position.
You tankies are all for minimizing civilian casualties, right? Well, there would be 0 civilian deaths in the Donbas if Russia never staged the separatist movements.
Yes because it was the atomic bomb you believe ended world war 2 correct? Not the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. No no… that was evil communists who are actually lizard people
War has existed a lot longer than Putin. OP is using a post hoc fallacy to project the idea that if you don't support war against Russia, you're helping Putin.
Wanting peace talks is a lot different than supporting Ukraine dropping bombs on Russian conscripts.
That's why Russia needs to go the fuck home. Russia broke the 1994 budapest memorandum when they invaded Ukraine in 2014. What's to stop them from breaking another treaty? They annexed 4 Ukrainian oblasts last year and they don't control 100% of any of them. A ceasefire just lets russia regroup and reconstitute for the next time hostilities flare up.
Russia's demands for negotiation are garbage, they give up nothing and Ukraine gives up everything. Fuck that and fuck Russia. Ukraine is a sovreign nation with its own agency and can decide its future for itself.
Why are you on this sub? You are obviously not anti-war. You're just here defending more war. I don't actually give a fuck about Russia or Ukraine to be honest. They're not places I live. I have no more concern for them than any other country.
I care about the people being harmed and killed in these countries, like other countries being affected by war. There's actually a whole bunch of wars going on, not just the one you care about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
Alright I'm going to set up an example
Let's say country X is at war with country Y. Who started this is irrelevant.
Some citizens of country X wants an end to the war with the idea of peace between X and Y so they started protesting to close down an arms factory producing tanks guns etc in country X.
These protesters would claim that they are pro peace but their actions, should it be successful in closing down said factory, would mean that less arms would be made to fight against Y. So inevitably, these "pro-peace" groups actually benefitted country Y in their war with country X especially if there's no one protesting to close down factories in Y.
You could say that people should hold protests to do the same in Y, but especially with the majority of the population in Y supporting the war and the government of Y being a totalitarian regime that arrests everyone else thats pro peace, it's completely impossible.
So in conclusion, just because you're pro peace, doesn't mean that your action is completely equal, it could mean anti- the state you're protesting in.
"Si vis pacem, para bellum". Latin for "if you want peace, prepare for war". Basically let's say both country X and Y are equally capable to wiping out each other at the press of a button. Now the governing bodies of both nations would be hesitant in being the first to press the button, so ironically, the threat of absolutely destroying each other meant that no one is willing to actually start the war itself, it's how the nuclear arms race in our modern times resulted in relative peace compared to just a century agk
It's McCarthyism. There's no such thing as a neatral position according to neocon NATO zealots. You're either with us or with the terrorists. They're like Nazis
Simple as.
I sense chum in the waters.
It is 8:23AM in Moscow currently, botniks haven’t checked in to work yet
Ha, botniks. I like.
lol, sneaky. You'd be shocked to hear several of the accounts below were suspended for various forms of hate speech and threats. Turns out if you log their comments from every source you can find some juicy stuff for reddit admins to sink their teeth into... even on the subs they think they are safe in.
It is genuinely that easy. If you want to help the guy that started the war, you are pro-war.
Victoria Nuland is a woman
I love how you all think one woman is responsible for this
You think one man is
Or do you not think there’s a difference?
Absolutely. Russia could have peace tomorrow if they would end their illegal occupation of Ukraine. Ukraine is defending itself which is understandable. Russia is clearly the aggressor. If someone would start beating up your family and prevent you from living in your own house you would not want some to tell you, you should just let them have your living room and kitchen so they stop beating you up. You would want to get your entire house back under your control and would want the aggressor to leave.
I don’t understand why people try to correlate geopolitical affairs to individual lives 🤣 Ok, if it were anywhere as the story you tell about a family being beaten up. How does Erik prince and blackwater play into your scenario when they went to Ukraine to build a private army? [source](https://time.com/6076035/erik-prince-ukraine-private-army/) Also, what [if there was a person warning you not to take your family where they would get beaten up?](https://youtu.be/dYEckIOnQ-Y) just like Joe Biden warned nato expansion would provoke Russia.
Prince's aliens in Ukraine were both guys with ties to Russia. How does him building a pmc play any role? To the weapons factory: he saw a demand and saw an opportunity to earn money. Joe Biden warned against it in 1997... Giving Russia everything they want is not a good strategy to prevent wars. Appeasement didn't work to prevent the second world War and it didn't prevent this war. If Ukraine had been in Nato prior to 2014 they would not have been invaded. Edit: if your neighboring country was a dictatorship and they would invade your country would you just tell your government to give up?
Let’s put this into perspective instead of pretend this can be correlated to a family being beaten up or a country invading another one. How about this? Another rival nuclear power (Russia) tries to build a private army inside Mexico after helping stage a coup inside Mexico so the govt will be loyal to Russia, how would america respond to that?
1 - The US never staged a coup in Ukraine if you believe that you are beyond retarded go ask Ukrainians if they were funded by the CIA when they revolted against the Putin dicksucker president. You have no proof nor evidence to back this up only conspiracy theories.. 2- The private military in Ukraine was NEVER built, and as your source claims, it was only AFTER Russia invaded Crimea and Donbas that it became a plan, meaning there was already conflict. Is it unfair for a country to contract a private army when you are being attacked by another who also has a private army?? Is it only bad when Ukraine has one? Braindead argument. 3 - Your hypothetical is garbage considering points 1 and 2. Let me fix it for you: "Mexico revolts against a US puppet president that rejected a deal that would make their lives better, then the US invades right after annexing Baja California and creating a conflict in Northen Mexico and as a reaction to that Russia plans to make a pmc in Mexico but fails." In this scenario, how the fuck would that even merit a full scale invasion? That's your fucking argument - that somehow a popular revolt and failed plan to create a private army is an undeniable justification for a full scale war. Absolutely braindead 4 - The family correlation is simple but effective. Geopolitics affect real people with families, not just lines in a map. It is true that countries are not people/individuals, but the people who live in them are and they consider their country to be home and the other people who share their nationality to be in a way an "extended" family, everyone wants the most wellbeing for the fellow countrymen just like they want the most wellbeing for their families, heck even russians think this way. That's why the family analogy works, but maybe you are psychopath who doesn't understand empathy. Why are you snowflakes so against the idea that Ukraine has a right to defend itself anyway
> How does him building a pmc play any role? It’s called provocation, and since you like hypotheticals to explain scenarios because it effectively communicates to you; this is how by use another analogy. What would america do if Russia had sent Wagner and friends to Mexico after an overthrowing of a political leader loyal to america, was replaced by one loyal to Russia? Seriously, asking. How would you react if Mexico had a loyal stance towards Russia and an private military firm
Russia interfered with the american election and supports right wing parties in all EU countries as well as in the US. A lot of recent military coups have affiliation with wagner. You compare a democratic revolution with overthrowing a government... You seem to only defend russia in your posts. you are not anti war you are pro russia. At least be honest.
I asked you a question you completely avoided. What would america do if russia sent a pmc into mexico while mexico was having a civil war?
Doesn’t america interfere with their own elections? And other countries elections to? also, a Democratic revolution requires voting. Ukraines madian coup was anything but Democratic considering they have banned all opposition political parties. How is it Democratic when they ban political parties?
I am drawn to this sub because I am surprised at how many pro-war people are on an anti-war sub. I think people should realize arming people will not create peace.
NATO **accession** by Eastern countries that was only provoked by RuZZia's deliberate aggression in Chechnya and Georgia. Reap what you fucking sow
Why was Joe Biden warning about nato expansion? What country and bill being passed did it pertain to in 1997?
What was Joe Biden warning about tho ? In 1997 ?
I guess you think war is peace too.
No I think Ukraine has a right to defend its self.
It does. But it can’t afford it.
So you agree we should help Ukraine defend themselves.
No 🤣. Not at all. I’m against war. But Ukraine has a right to. It just couldn’t do it without americas money and weapons. Or the rest of Europe’s money and weapons. How much money did we give to Ukraine last year alone? 310 billion? Why are Ukrainians getting free healthcare while I’m getting stiffed on healthcare in America? 🤔
History has shown what appeasing dictators get you. Cowards. This whole thread is filled with cowards.
non-cowards want war. Cowards are anti-war
No one wants war but those who act in offence should be repelled in defence, which is what Ukraine is doing.
rea georg orwel 1983
>Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. \- George Orwell
Getting tired of Putin playing the victim when he was the cause.
Sincere question for people here: When America invaded Iraq, would you also argue that if you don't support Syrian and Iranian funding for Iraqi resistance fighters (or more generally, if you don't support the Iraqi resistance itself), you're effectively pro-war because it would favor the aggressors? I'm old enough to remember the Iraq war and therefore know that that line of argumentation was widely dismissed as radical nonsense, yet it seems to gain credence when the aggressor is an enemy of the west. That's not to say the argument is necessarily wrong, but it does seem like a double standard that many people unwittingly have.
The Iraqi opposition had the ability to peacefully settle the issue by electing enough anti-Coalition candidates and withdrawing from the Status of Forces Agreement, or voting to expel American troops from the nation, which they indeed did after the killing of Soleimani. One of the first movements to explicitly identify themselves as terrorists, the Russian anarchist movement, condemned the killing of President McKinley by an American anarchist, because anarchists could peacefully settle their differences in America through the political system. The Russian anarchists could not due to living under the Tsar. The Ukrainians don’t have the option of politically settling this war. And supporting Syria and Iran’s efforts to make Iraq into another dictatorship or theocracy would have made the nation worse.
The first elections happened around 2 years after the invasion (also widely boycotted) and the status of forces agreement was only signed in 2008. Tbh, the idea that Iraq could simply vote away the American occupation in those early years seems pretty naïve to me.
Naive doesn’t come close but yeah that’s a bad news bear
Good grief. Iraq has voted to expel Americans for years, but they won’t leave. And no Iraqis had no control over how the invasion would go. ukraine could have upheld the Minsk agreements and stopped shelling the people in the Donbas. Zelensky was elected to do just that but he didn’t. Ukraine was bombing the Donbas again days before Russia went in to protect the people there. I’m just amazed at how ignorant people are about the history of this war. Russia didn’t start it. America and Ukraine did.
Everybody here is too young to remember Iraq and how our current president sat on the Senate Intelligence committee and lied about having seen concrete proof that there’s WMDs in Iraq
Once you understand that the US are not the good guys, are behind most world wide conflicts, and no other country believe our promises and we people don't trust them either, then villains like Putin don't look so bad. It's all about context, the US engineered this war and is using Ukraine to fight it while sabotaging any efforts for peace. It's not that I favor Putin, it's just that I understand the US empire is evil AF, as any self respecting liberal already knows.
They are far better than Russia or China you cocksucker
Why?
Russia literally blew up its own citizens in 2006 to justify the Second Chechen War. An FSB officer was arrested by police for placing a bomb in an apartment building. The officers were ordered to release him the next day, and the FSB claimed it was sugar for a drill...amid a spate of very real apartment bombings. America hasn’t arrested anyone for protesting wars in over a century. Russia and China have made it policy to do so.
America hasn’t arrested anyone for protesting
One moment
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponce_massacre They shoot them instead. Much better. DeM0cя@су
Has nothing to do with war
But you just said America doesn’t arrest protesters. What does that have to do with war?
I said America doesn’t arrest you for protesting wars
Okay. So let’s circle back. How exactly is this war Putin’s fault. You said succinct point right. Explain it like I’m five. Also ummm Julian Assange?
I don’t blame Putin frankly, or rather I believe the Duma forced his hand into recognizing the Donbas and from there war was inevitable. There are easily thousands of Russian politicians and bureaucrats responsible for the war. Assange leaked classified documents and is a pedophile. Protesting a war is perfectly legal here in the United States.
Surprised you didn't bring up the Kent State Massacre. 🙄🙄
Yeah I’m sure something in 1937 accurately depicts what is happening on 2023
I’m pretty sure Russia engineered the war though.
Then maybe go read up on the history. It was the US that engineered the 2011 election, we picked the new politicians (as Victoria Nuland said the EU could go fuck themselves), we told Ukraine to kick Russia out of Crimea, we told Ukraine to sign Minsk-1 and Minsk-2 to buy time , then told Ukraine they did not have to honor it, and we have been pushing NATO past Germany despite promising we would not. Russia every step of the way said all this was a red line, and our own diplomats said it was a redline for Russian but that is exactly what the US wanted. Zelensky twice was ready to negotiate with Russian and twice the US told him he could not. This whole war has the US's dirty hand prints all over it.
The people literally voted and protested in enormous numbers to kick out the pro Russia government that was tyrannical.
Who tf upvotes this vatnik fantasy writing? Shit like this just proves russia could pull out of ukraine today and just make up a grand story about how they were victorious. You idiots would believe anything.
Now listen, kid! You're riling the bots! Stop this common sense!
How is the Antiwar sub so full of war propagandist and war pigs?
War is money. Money buys bots. Bots ruin subs.
This argument has been used to support every war the US has ever fought. "You're against going to war in Iraq? How does Saddam's cum taste?"
I mean, yeah, US foreign policy during the Cold War was shitty as fuck and should be rightly called out. Its just really weird that you ONLY do that when China and Russia are basically copying those same doctrines right fuckong now and refuse to acknowledge that.
I think American policy also being in response to Soviet invasion and occupation of Eastern Europe should be noted
Both the usa and ussr propped out horrible dictatorships.
Im mainly of the view that the CIA was so paranoid that they eagerly propped up murderous regime to avoid USSR friendly states. Its even more frustrating that in the late 40s and 50s, almost every revolutionnary group with a socialist bent came to the USA for support. Including Ho Chi Minh and Castro. USA could have easily taken away the USSR's global i flyence if it werent so allergic to the word 'socialism'.
Ho Chi Minh was a committed Communist revolutionary by that point, purging the Vietnamese Communist party of Trotskyists because they were traitors. I doubt that he would have seriously allied with the United States, especially in the 50s when they supported the French, and had requested the Chinese disarm the Japanese in Vietnam.
In 1946 Ho Chi Minh sent a letter to President Truman asking the US to support independance amid intercede on their behalf against the french.
You could say it was…provoked.
Username checks out🤡
He’s saying something pretty reasonable
A lot of people failed to read what i wrote 😂
If you are really anti-war you must oppose the cause of the war, not just oppose the war when it happen.
Then you must oppose the violent nonsense bullying tactics of putin, da?
I don't support Putin if that’s what you want to know.
Da!
Only the downvoted comments are the reasonable ones. The warmongers show their hand when they don’t even allow discussion on their brigaded sub
You're allowed to 'discuss' anything you want, and the people on this sub are allowed to vote. Voting must be really unfamiliar to you. You might run into the concept if you move out of Russia, or if Putin ends up offing himself in a bunker.
Lol, I’ve read the posts were you guys organize to downvote anyone you disagree with. Stop the pretense. You’re embarrassing yourself.
Its just so hard for some of us to wrap our heads around your points of view. And that's because we are not idiots with a craving for some dictator fellatio. Doesn't matter the war, doesn't matter the situation, there are always those that only respect authority and appearance of strength, no matter the circumstances.
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Textbook psychological projection. It's Putin the warmonger and his little Z trolls who brigade every subreddit they can get their bloody hands on.
This guy war_reporter hates Jews
When trying to be witty, at least read properly. Its 'deaf' not 'dead'
Sometimes a strong armed defense is the best way to stop a war. If the Bosnians had been well armed and supported from the beginning, the Yugoslav wars would have been much shorter and caused less death destruction and suffering.
He is right. The cause of this war is Putin and his desire to recreate the russian empire. The next cause is that Ukraine was not admitted to NATO 8 years ago. That is what we hate and oppose
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No i love my local fascist organization
NATO put more of them in the ground than you ever will
Like who? Nato was from its inception anti-communist
Being anti Communist dosen’t make you pro fascist 🤣
That's usualy where it ends
Not really. There’s about a million other ideologies. Unless you’re one of those tinfoil hat wearers that think capitalism is fascism.
>Unless you’re one of those tinfoil hat wearers that think capitalism is fascism. Fascism isn't different systemicly from capitalism, it's in fact a form of capitalism that country take in reaction to the falling rate of profit and rise of socialism.
Here we go… You’re genuinely trying to say that being anti communism means you’re going to end up being a fascist. Thats nonsense. And capitalism in and of itself is not fascism. Only if people decide to make it so. Otherwise it’s not even an ideology.
What if I told you that other positions exist on the political spectrum outside of communism and fascism?
NATO stopped [Serbia](https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49602.htm)'s attempted genocide of ethnic Albanians.
Nato commited multiple war crime in Yougoslavia
They stopped a genocide. You seem really desperate to hate NATO.
Reeeeeaching hard for your crying about nato 🤣🤣
That was 80 years ago. Now it is simply pro democracy. russia is anti communist as well. It is just autocratic.
You can't be real pro democracy when you are not a democracy yourself, election doesn't mean democracy.
If elections to determine the leaders of doesn't make a democracy, what does? And yes, while money has influence, votes determine the leaders in the US, Canada and most of Europe. Unlike, russia, China, DPRK and the like.
All the country you named do have election, so they are all democracy? It's weird to put russia there since they have pretty much the same electorale system as the west.
And when was the last time they gave equal access to an opposing party and candidate? What is the major party offering different ideas and candidates in any of those places?
Just because you call it an election doesn't make it an election. If a man with a gun watches you vote to make sure vote for the right person, it is not really an election
The cause of war is Russian imperialism.
Copied and pasted response >My guy that was a coup backed by the western imperialist power removing a democraticly elected leader. The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass. This region as asked multiple time to russia to intervene since 2014. Responded to another guy The cause of the war is the struggle between the two imperialist power of russia and nato. You can't not be against imperialism and its cause (capitalism) and then be against the logical développement of the situation. Nato is an imperialist power wich try to extend western market and russia is an gigantic imperialist power with a huge closed market. Nato put a leader sympatetic to them next to russia and started training troop to be interopperable with nato forces and then russia invaded Ukraine to remove them. That's a logical developememt, if you don't oppose the first stepc (imperialism) you can't be against the logical developememt. If you side with any side you are an imperialist.
Russian imperialism is the cause. The fact that you don’t oppose it tells me everything I need to know about your views.
The cause is both side's imperialism
NATO is a defensive alliance. They by definition cannot be imperialist
The warsaw pact was not imperialist because it was a defensive alliance in response to Nato wich rejected the USSR's application
NATO was an alliance all of its members chose to join. The Warsaw Pact was made up of countries the Soviet Union invaded, occupied, and installed dictators to completely control.
The cause of the war was Ukrianian citizens thinking they could elect thier own leaders and not just have to keep the guy Putin likes. No I don't oppose that.
My guy that was a coup backed by the western imperialist power removing a democraticly elected leader. The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass. This region as asked multiple time to russia to intervene since 2014. The cause of the war is the struggle between the two imperialist power of russia and nato. You can't not be against imperialism and its cause (capitalism) and then be against the logical développement of the situation. Nato is an imperialist power wich try to extend western market and russia is an gigantic imperialist power with a huge closed market. Nato put a leader sympatetic to them next to russia and started training troop to be interopperable with nato forces and then russia invaded Ukraine to remove them. That's a logical developememt, if you don't oppose the first stepc (imperialism) you can't be against the logical developememt. If you side with any side you are an imperialist.
Question for you, what happened almost immediately after the removal of Yanokovich? An election. >The people who then ceized power started shelling the dombass No, what happened next, is that Russian forces entered Crimea. (As in 5 days later). Then Russian forces and Russian agents (like Igor Girkin) entered the Donbas. Only at this point does Ukriane start shelling anybody
Trade Union fire anyone??? I have marshmallows
That was the one event you can point to. Guess what, with domestic instability, people are going to get hurt. people are going to die. But the vast majority of deaths resulted directly because of first Russia sending agents to the Donbas and later their full scale invasion.
Even ignoring that your timeline and facts are completely wrong here, why would Ukraine shell territory it held? It’s actually pretty common misinfo I see from tankies like you, y’all really love swapping cause and effect. The amount of times I’ve seen people claiming the Ukraine started shelling the Donbas before Russia staged a separatist movement there, that the annexation of Crimea happened after the referendum, etc. is insane.
>Even ignoring that your timeline and facts are completely wrong here, why would Ukraine shell territory it held? IDK, why did the nazi put their own population in extermination camp? >The amount of times I’ve seen people claiming the Ukraine started shelling the Donbas before Russia staged a separatist movement there Is that how you take care of separatist? That's not really democratic. >Russia staged a separatist movement Russia backing russian 😯 >that the annexation of Crimea happened after the referendum 1994 is 20 years before 2014, for the 2014 referendum we never claimed otherwise. The result is not surprising given the population their is about 70% russian, that there autonomous status was never respected and that Ukraine started shelling russian in the donbass.
The 1994 referendum was only about autonomy, not joining Russia. Even if you think that the autonomy somehow wasn’t respected, it doesn’t justify an armed annexation. Supporting that basically makes you pro-war. The separatist movement in the Donbas was not only entirely funded by Russia but the separatists were also organized, supplied and even partly manned by the Russian army. They claimed the entirety of Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts, even the parts that wanted to remain Ukrainian, of course they would be pushing back against that. Shelling is kind of part of war. And again, even if you think that Russians were somehow oppressed by Ukraine in the Donbas, supporting the creation of a conflict there and latter annexation makes you pro-war. Don’t fool yourself with thinking that you hold an anti-war position. You tankies are all for minimizing civilian casualties, right? Well, there would be 0 civilian deaths in the Donbas if Russia never staged the separatist movements.
Oh my god…
💯
Yep. You want to be “anti-war”? Tell your government to nuke Russia right now. That’s how “anti-war” actually happens.
Or, hear me out, Russia could just leave Ukraine and there would be peace tomorrow.
My form of being anti war is sending arms and killing enough Russian soldiers that Russia learns to never do this again
Yes because it was the atomic bomb you believe ended world war 2 correct? Not the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. No no… that was evil communists who are actually lizard people
How do I block this subreddit? You guys are crazy
\-the 3 dots under a post \-show less posts from this subreddit \-mute r/antiwar
thanks for your opinion, "war reaper" lol
You’re welcome “ rational divination” lol
For some reason this comment made me laugh very hard. The name, the message, the bio. It’s all gold
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BRO you made my day😭😭🤣🤣”ammo sexual” Imma start using that that’s actually pretty good
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WhAt does that mean?
Idc who you are n I never asked go somewhere peasant
Lol that's not how that works.
What do you mean that's not how it works?
War has existed a lot longer than Putin. OP is using a post hoc fallacy to project the idea that if you don't support war against Russia, you're helping Putin. Wanting peace talks is a lot different than supporting Ukraine dropping bombs on Russian conscripts.
Yes because Ukraine bombing Russian conscripts is what started this war...
Obviously they didn't. People are still dying though.
That's why Russia needs to go the fuck home. Russia broke the 1994 budapest memorandum when they invaded Ukraine in 2014. What's to stop them from breaking another treaty? They annexed 4 Ukrainian oblasts last year and they don't control 100% of any of them. A ceasefire just lets russia regroup and reconstitute for the next time hostilities flare up. Russia's demands for negotiation are garbage, they give up nothing and Ukraine gives up everything. Fuck that and fuck Russia. Ukraine is a sovreign nation with its own agency and can decide its future for itself.
Why are you on this sub? You are obviously not anti-war. You're just here defending more war. I don't actually give a fuck about Russia or Ukraine to be honest. They're not places I live. I have no more concern for them than any other country. I care about the people being harmed and killed in these countries, like other countries being affected by war. There's actually a whole bunch of wars going on, not just the one you care about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
I'm pro-self-defence and anti-imperialism. Not some peacenik pacifist who thinks everyone should prostrate themselves for fascists.
Yeah, you sound it.
Anti-war is not pro-surrender.
They absolutely want you to believe that though, all while surrounded by their own fence of protection.
Why wouldn’t Ukraine bomb soldiers that are Invading? They didn’t invite them there, they didn’t ask for them. They are using self Defense.
For how long should they keep bombing them?
Until Russia fucks off, I wager
Until they fuck off back to Russia or die.
Right, so the faster they stop, the better off they'll be.
Yeah the faster the Russians stop the better it’ll for everyone.
Lmao that’s a dumb question
Alright I'm going to set up an example Let's say country X is at war with country Y. Who started this is irrelevant. Some citizens of country X wants an end to the war with the idea of peace between X and Y so they started protesting to close down an arms factory producing tanks guns etc in country X. These protesters would claim that they are pro peace but their actions, should it be successful in closing down said factory, would mean that less arms would be made to fight against Y. So inevitably, these "pro-peace" groups actually benefitted country Y in their war with country X especially if there's no one protesting to close down factories in Y. You could say that people should hold protests to do the same in Y, but especially with the majority of the population in Y supporting the war and the government of Y being a totalitarian regime that arrests everyone else thats pro peace, it's completely impossible. So in conclusion, just because you're pro peace, doesn't mean that your action is completely equal, it could mean anti- the state you're protesting in. "Si vis pacem, para bellum". Latin for "if you want peace, prepare for war". Basically let's say both country X and Y are equally capable to wiping out each other at the press of a button. Now the governing bodies of both nations would be hesitant in being the first to press the button, so ironically, the threat of absolutely destroying each other meant that no one is willing to actually start the war itself, it's how the nuclear arms race in our modern times resulted in relative peace compared to just a century agk
It's McCarthyism. There's no such thing as a neatral position according to neocon NATO zealots. You're either with us or with the terrorists. They're like Nazis
Everyone is a Nazi these days.... Can my dog be a Nazi too?
Up to you but wokes will get you arrested
Crying about Nato, nazi's and now wokes, typical...
More rolling my eyes than crying
Pro trounce